The Alabama Murders - Part 4: The Protocol

Holman Correctional Facility. June 2010. John Forrest Parker is put to death by lethal injection. He didn’t appear to suffer. But did he? Get early, ad-free access to the full season of The Alabama Murders by subscribing to Pushkin+ on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/revisionist-history-the-alabama-murders/id1119389968 or Pushkin.fm http://pushkin.fm/. Pushkin+ subscribers can access ad-free episodes, full audiobooks, exclusive binges, and bonus content for all Pushkin shows. Subscribe on Apple: apple.co/pushkin http://apple.co/pushkin Subscribe on Pushkin: pushkin.com/plus http://pushkin.com/plus See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. When you're a business owner interested in expanding to new markets, there's a lot to consider and countless questions to answer before making the call. The most important one being, are you ready? That's where ChatGPT comes in. Give it a goal, add your files, and ask chat to help you map out different scenarios for the future of your business. So when growth is on the table, you've got an expansion plan ready to implement. Get started today at chatgpt.com.

• 0:28Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on, and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over the limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet,

• 1:09Malcolm Gladwell?

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• 1:54Malcolm Gladwell?

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• 1:56Speaker 00

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• 2:39Malcolm Gladwell?

  Pushkin.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Previously on Revisionist History.

• 2:50Speaker 03

  People had an idea of what had happened. When a person gets something in their mind, you know, it's kind of hard to change.

• 3:02Speaker 04

  Can't remember how soon they figured out that he, that, you know, the preacher had finished the job and all that. But it was, you know, it was pretty obvious pretty quick.

• 3:16Malcolm Gladwell?

  If Senate does it, the timing makes a lot more sense. He shows up after they've left. Stabs, calls. Stabs and calls.

• 3:24Speaker 03

  I mean, there's no sense in even having a jury. If you, if you're going to be able to overturn the jury, if a judge can overturn a jury.

• 3:42Malcolm Gladwell?

  I don't know how much Tom Heflin explained to you, but.

• 3:45Speaker 03

  He just told me you were OK to talk to.

• 3:48Malcolm Gladwell?

  Oh, that's very kind.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  And we're just, we're very.

• 3:52Speaker 04

  John Parker is very, very dear to me and I just very protective. I wouldn't want to do anything to hurt he or his family.

• 3:59Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 4:00Speaker 04

  But other than that, I'm willing to talk.

• 4:03Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is Tom Perry Jr., big guy, beard, from Demopolis, Alabama, who on the third Saturday of every month, for years and years, would spend a day on death row in Donaldson Prison just outside Birmingham. I called him up because John Forrest Parker's lawyer told me, "If you want to understand something more about Parker, talk to Tom Perry."

• 4:25Speaker 04

  I want to tell you something, Malcolm, and I don't mean to take over your interview now, but I'm no, I'm no really do-gooder. I'm just an old guy that's fallen short every day. I just happen, the Lord uses me in the penitentiary setting because of my shortcomings, if that makes sense.

• 4:43Malcolm Gladwell?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Now, you're, I can't resist, almost everyone I've been talking to for the story so far is Church of Christ.

• 4:51Speaker 04

  I am not.

• 4:51Malcolm Gladwell?

  And you're Methodist. I don't understand why you're not Church of Christ. What's going on?

• 4:56Speaker 04

  I don't know. I'm just, maybe I like, I like the cocktail too much for the Church of Christ. I don't know.

• 5:09Malcolm Gladwell?

  In this episode, I'm going to tell you about what happened to John Forrest Parker after he was sentenced to death, and give you a meditation on a phrase from the Jesuit priest James Keenan that I have come back to many times. "Sin is the failure to bother to care."

• 5:27Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is the story of someone who bothered to care and someone else who couldn't be bothered at all.

• 5:35Malcolm Gladwell?

  My name is Malcolm Gladwell. This is The Alabama Murders, Episode 4, The Protocol.

• 5:51Malcolm Gladwell?

  In the time that you were doing ministry at Donaldson, how many men that you were working with got executed?

• 5:59Speaker 04

  I believe I've been with 13, maybe, maybe 12.

• 6:08Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah. Perry got involved working with people on death row through a mentor of his, Ben Sherrod.

• 6:14Speaker 04

  Like, when I first went back, Big Ben Sherrod says, now, look, if you come back here and you start coming and these guys ask you to go all the way with them, you gotta be willing to go. And if you're not, I understand, but don't come back. And I said, what's all the way? And he said, well, you know, B, if they're executions, if they have living family, they don't necessarily want their family to watch them die or to be their only member, but that we need somebody there that loves them. And if they ask you to be with them, you need, you can't, you need to be willing to go. And if you're not, just don't come. And at the time, we had had an execution in Alabama in a very long time. And I said, sure. Well, you know, I didn't know what I was getting into, but I mean,

• 6:58Speaker 04

  and like, when I say at 12 or 13, Malcolm, 10 or 11 of them, I was praying with their families at the time they died.

• 7:07Malcolm Gladwell?

  What? That's a hard thing to go through, lose 13, 13 men?

• 7:14Speaker 04

  You, um,

• 7:18Speaker 04

  like, I want, I want to tell you the honest to goodness truth. I don't want to, we jokingly call it, you know, stupid Christians, but, uh, I don't, by one little witness I'll give you is he gives you the power. Now, when it's over, I usually have, need somebody to drive me home. But up until then, you just have the strength to do it. But it's so hard, you wouldn't believe, and it affects you.

• 7:50Malcolm Gladwell?

  John Forrest Parker was one of those 13 and maybe the one closest to his heart.

• 7:56Speaker 04

  And, uh, man, I love John Parker. I sure do miss him. That's the only reservations I have about doing this is, you know, at 15 years, it kind of makes me miss him a little more.

• 8:12Malcolm Gladwell?

  The jury in John Parker's trial voted 10 to 2 for life without parole. But under Alabama law at the time, a judge was allowed to override a jury's recommendation. And this is what the judge, Inga Johnson, did. Johnson sentenced Parker to death in 1989. He was remanded to Donaldson Prison and placed on death row. 24 cells in two blocks of 12. And there, Perry began to visit him, making the two-hour drive from Demoplas to Donaldson. Perry would go with his friend Ben Sheridan. A handful of others would join them. When Perry first met Parker, Parker wouldn't come out of his cell.

• 8:50Speaker 04

  Sometimes we would take food. And if we took food, John would come out to eat. You know, we had really good food. But then his first chance, he'd go back to his cell. But if we didn't have food, John didn't come out. Well, of course, we learned as I developed my relationship with him. You know, Reverend Sennett is who hired them. So he just, when you said religion and preachers and he wanted nothing to do with it. Because, you know, he still equated that with Reverend Sennett.

• 9:21Malcolm Gladwell?

  Then Perry met Parker's mother. He told her that her son wouldn't leave his cell.

• 9:26Speaker 04

  She said, he doesn't come out. I said, no, ma'am. She said, next month, we went every month. She said, you tell him his mama said he better come out. So I went and told him, and he said, I'll be there. And he never missed. The next month, he never missed. And he and I became very, very good friends. And he confided a lot in me, so.

• 9:44Malcolm Gladwell?

  What was he like?

• 9:46Speaker 04

  Um, now, you understand, Malcolm. I do believe that the good Lord changes people. John was very intelligent, very well-read, heck of a nice guy. Um, just a wonderful person. He's just the kind of guy you wanted to hang out with. Now, he told me, he said, you know, since I've come in here, I've learned to read better and write better and do things better.

• 10:17Malcolm Gladwell?

  In prison, he was sober and off drugs for the first time since he was 12.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  Spoke very openly with me about his crime. And, I mean, I remember one thing he said. Um. And he, he, he was adamant with me. This was very difficult for John because he knew they were going to give him last words at his execution.

• 10:45Speaker 04

  And he said, you know, I didn't kill Ms. Stenning. I said, yeah, I know that. He said, but I was involved. And, and that's a horrible thing I was involved in. And he said, I've been in prison probably not long enough. But he said, but I didn't kill her. And he said, we snapped out of it. You know, they, they told us that, you know, Reverend Stenning came home and killed her. I don't know. Are you aware of that? And he, um, and he said, well, I mean, he said, I remember hitting her. And it was like a light bulb went off like, what the hell are you doing? And, and he said, but that was horrible. And I, I, I'm not sure I've been in prison long enough.

• 11:30Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah. And you said, was your, were you, was the, was the ministry part of your visiting explicit? Or how much of, how much of this were you trying to bring the message of Jesus to these men or?

• 11:44Speaker 04

  It was, that was, that was absolutely central. But you got to understand, I realized quickly that our ministry, more important than any words, was a ministry of presence. The fact that you showed up every time that prison would let you, on the third Saturday, we'd go and they'd let us stay two or three hours. But on twice a year, we would stay for three, we'd go in on a Thursday evening, well, go in on Friday morning, stay all day.

• 12:22Speaker 04

  And then go on Saturdays, stay all day and go on Sundays. And that's called a three day week. And we would do that twice a year.

• 12:30Malcolm Gladwell?

  Tom, you, this is a commitment.

• 12:34Speaker 04

  It was a tremendous commitment. But I talked to my wife about it. I had young children at the time. And my wife says, you know, look, I have to say it makes you a better person, a better dad, a better husband. So go for it.

• 12:48Malcolm Gladwell?

  Their visits went on for 23 years as Parker's appeals wound their way through the legal system. Finally, his execution date was set. 6:00 PM, June 10th, 2010.

• 13:02Malcolm Gladwell?

  Parker was moved to Holman Prison in Atmore, in the far south of the state, near Mobile. That's where the state's execution chamber is. He was put in a special holding cell in the days leading up to his execution. He filed two last appeals in his final week, to the Alabama Supreme Court and then the US Supreme Court. Both failed. On his last day, he skipped breakfast but chose a dinner of fried fish, french fries and iced tea. He gave his mother his gold watch, a mirror, seven stamps and a box of pictures. He gave his two nephews his belt and his wallet. He died by lethal injection at 6:41 PM.

• 13:47Malcolm Gladwell?

  Tom Perry was there with him.

• 13:51Speaker 04

  And then, you know, he was finally gone. But then, after that, I have to get back on that van and I go back to the hotel whereby the other people had been in there praying with his family. And I had to go in and tell them, you know, John's gone, it was peaceful. He didn't appear to suffer.

• 14:18Malcolm Gladwell?

  He didn't appear to suffer. We'll be right back.

• 14:34Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.

• 15:11Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over the limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over

• 15:56Malcolm Gladwell?

  time without any extra effort. When you better understand your spending habits, it's easier to make your money work harder for you. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval, variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.74% to 27.99% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of October 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or card.apple.com. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, Member FDIC. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 16:40Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. In military families, service is more than a job. It's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors through education. If someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military. To understand the particulars of John Parker's execution, you have to go back to 1977 in Oklahoma City. In the mid-'70s, the Supreme Court had just lifted a long moratorium on capital punishment.

• 17:25Malcolm Gladwell?

  The court had been concerned that existing methods, like the electric chair, violated the constitutional prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment. Watching someone die on the electric chair was like watching a horror movie. Public scrutiny was high. The court said that states could only bring back the death penalty if they found a more socially acceptable and legally rigorous way of applying it.

• 17:51Speaker 05

  So at that point, there were several things going on. First of all, there were journalists who were threatening to litigate so that they could see the next execution. And Oklahoma and other states such as Texas were very concerned about that. They thought these executions would be videotaped and displayed to the world.

• 18:13Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is Deborah Dano, who teaches law at Fordham University in New York City and is one of the country's leading legal experts on capital punishment.

• 18:21Speaker 05

  Number two, Ronald Reagan, then-Governor Ronald Reagan a few years earlier, had sort of made a pronouncement of why don't we just execute inmates the way we put horses down?

• 18:34Malcolm Gladwell?

  In case you're wondering, this is what Reagan said. "Being a former farmer and horse raiser, I know what it's like to try to eliminate an injured horse by shooting him. Now, you call the veterinarian, and the vet gives it a shot, and the horse goes to sleep. That's it."

• 18:50Speaker 05

  You know, I think there was a pressure to have a method that looked more humane than electrocution and lethal gas. Those were the pressures that was on this state.

• 19:01Malcolm Gladwell?

  So from the beginning, you know, these are states terrified of journalists being able to videotape what's happening. So their concern is really with what this looks like to the world?

• 19:13Speaker 05

  That's right, the perception for the world.

• 19:16Malcolm Gladwell?

  Perception is what, yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 05

  Yes, absolutely.

• 19:18Malcolm Gladwell?

  So, Oklahoma City, 1977. A state senator named Bill Wiseman takes up the court's challenge. He wants to find a way to make capital punishment more humane. And one day, he gets a call from the Oklahoma State Medical Examiner, A.J. Chapman, who has heard about Wiseman's crusade and has an idea. He gives Wiseman a rough outline for what would come to be known as lethal injection. Two drugs in sequence. First is sedative, like a barbiturate, to put the prisoner to sleep. Then a paralytic, something to immobilize them. Later, Chapman added a third drug, potassium chloride, which is the main ingredient in

• 20:02Malcolm Gladwell?

  chemical fertilizer and which, in elevated doses, causes hyperkalemia, which is like flipping the power switch on your heart. Weisman took Chapman's idea and put it before the Oklahoma State Legislature. It passed by an overwhelming margin. I'm reading now from an editorial in The Vista, the student newspaper at Central State University in Oklahoma. "Lethal injection is not only less traumatic on the prisoner, but it would also be easier on witnesses, for they would not have to endure the grisly sight of roasting flesh, bulging eyeballs, or squirting blood."

• 20:43Malcolm Gladwell?

  But Chapman's protocol was never tested. I mean, how could you test it? You're trying to kill someone. Everyone you would experiment on would die. As a result, no one really knew how it worked. In his memoirs, published years later, Chapman argued that knowing the precise method of action didn't matter, since, quote, "The properties of the drugs were extremely well-known." The three-drug combination was just a variation on a protocol that was being used for anesthesia every day in hospitals all around the world.

• 21:20Malcolm Gladwell?

  But of course, that isn't quite true, is it? It's not the same procedure that's used for medical anesthesia, because the intention of medical anesthesia is to keep the patient alive, and the intention of lethal injection is to give those same drugs in doses so large that the patient dies. That's actually totally different. Did Chapman, how much thought did he put into this three-drug protocol?

• 21:49Speaker 05

  You know, I mean, that's a question for him. I do know that they came up with this in the course of an afternoon.

• 21:56Malcolm Gladwell?

  We reached out to Chapman for an interview, but he declined to talk to us. The Oklahoma protocol would become the method of choice in 30 other American states. It's even with a minor variation what countries like Canada use today for euthanasia. But how exactly does it work?

• 22:16Malcolm Gladwell?

  I know this seems like a pedantic point, but it is the settled position of the United States, in fact, of most of the world, that a mark of a civilized society is that its punishment is humane. You can't torture people. Even if you've decided to kill a prisoner, you have to do it the right way. So, once again, how does lethal injection kill people?

• 22:39Speaker 06

  So, I was given a stack of autopsies of prisoners executed in here in the state of Georgia.

• 22:47Malcolm Gladwell?

  Joel Zivit, an anesthesiologist at Emory University.

• 22:51Speaker 06

  In Georgia, there's an automatic autopsy that was, that's performed on these prisoners. Interestingly, by the way, the cause of death that's written on the death certificate is homicide.

• 23:04Malcolm Gladwell?

  Because he's an anesthesiologist and lethal injection is basically the homicidal version of anesthesiology, Zivit was approached by a group of lawyers who had a client on death row. They had a technical question. Could he tell, from looking at the blood work of executed prisoners, whether they were conscious at the point of death? The operating assumption behind lethal injection was that they were unconscious, that they would be fully anesthetized when the potassium chloride hit their heart. But did we know that for a fact?

• 23:36Speaker 06

  So, I just, I read the autopsy, read the first autopsy and kind of was going through it and, and saw this finding that was surprising, which was that in this first one that I read, that the lungs were what's called heavy.

• 23:53Malcolm Gladwell?

  This had nothing to do with the question he'd been asked to answer. It was completely unexpected.

• 23:59Speaker 06

  As part of an autopsy, the lungs are removed from the body and just plopped on a scale. And all these lungs were heavy. Why were they heavy? They were heavy because they were full of, of bloody frothy fluid. And this bloody frothy fluid could not have gotten into the lungs after death.

• 24:21Malcolm Gladwell?

  If you're dead, your heart has stopped working, so there's no way for fluid to get pumped into your lungs. It had to have happened while the prisoner was still alive.

• 24:32Speaker 06

  And what was assumed, I think, by me and others, I hadn't really thought about it, was that the body would be essentially pristine. You know, there wouldn't be this kind of destruction of organs within the body. But when I went through the whole list, almost 80% of the time, so eight out of 10 times, there was this finding of this frothy, bloody fluid. So you could cut into the windpipe and the fluid would be just frothing right in there without being, pardon me, too graphic. So the question then was, how did it get in there? I conferred with a pathologist colleague of mine. We kind of puzzled over this for a while. And it occurred to us that, you know, what we think, what I think,

• 25:16Speaker 06

  is that it's actually the way the pentobarbital is prepared.

• 25:22Malcolm Gladwell?

  Pentobarbital is the first of the drugs used in the fatal injection protocol. It's the sedative and it has a high pH.

• 25:31Speaker 06

  This is sort of basic chemistry. The pH scale goes from 1 to 14. 7 is neutral. The other thing important to know about the pH scale is that it's a log scale. So it means that every time you move one number, you're going up by a factor of 10. You know, for a reference, the Richter scale of earthquakes is also a log scale. That's why an earthquake of four and a half, you know, you kind of, you know, will maybe shuffle the ground underneath you, but an earthquake of eight and a half will split the world in half. So it's a huge, powerful difference.

• 26:07Malcolm Gladwell?

  The body's normal pH is between 7.35 and 7.45. If you drop below 7 or rise above 8, you'll probably die. The pH of pentobarbital is between 9 and 11. Now, when pentobarbital is used in ordinary medicine, this fact doesn't matter that much. The dose is pretty small. It burns a little, but the body compensates.

• 26:34Speaker 06

  But now imagine giving 10 times that quantity and pushing it into a small vein. It travels rapidly to the heart, where the heart pumps it immediately into the lungs, and it tears the lungs apart, basically. They get burned from the inside, and then the separation of air and blood, there's a very fine layer of tissue there that gets destroyed, and the blood just pours into the lungs. And I'm sorry as I'm saying this, it's awful. And this is what, this is how lethal injection actually kills you. It kills you by burning your lungs up.

• 27:15Speaker 06

  And you're also paralyzed, so you can't complain that this is happening. And then to finish you off, of course, you know, you're probably begging for the potassium at that point, because that finally stops your heart and, and stops this process. But in the meantime, you know, this has been gone on for a few minutes. So the last thing that, you know, you may know is that you're on fire from the inside, and the blood is filling up your lungs as you die. Is this too graphic?

• 27:50Malcolm Gladwell?

  Of course it is, but that's the point. Because the reason lethal injection started in the first place was that even the proponents of the death penalty were eager to find a method that was humane, that didn't involve fixing metal plates to someone's head and frying their brains with a jolt of electricity. And Zivit's point is that this is not actually more humane, it just looks that way. Death penalty advocates were trying to satisfy the constitutional prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment, but their innovation only spared the suffering of the witnesses to an execution, not the subject of the execution. The whole thing was an illusion.

• 28:34Malcolm Gladwell?

  But even that's not the issue. The real issue is that the lethal injection protocol was dreamt up on the back of an envelope, and until Joel Zivit came along by accident 50 years later, none of the people who championed lethal injection could get around to wondering just how their preferred method worked. And it's not like the evidence wasn't available. In many states, there's an autopsy on everyone who's executed. The autopsies were just sitting there, in a drawer somewhere, hundreds of them. And in almost every case, they were characterized by the same inexplicable finding. Here's what I don't understand: nobody noticed this till you?

• 29:19Speaker 06

  Apparently not.

• 29:20Malcolm Gladwell?

  Isn't that astonishing?

• 29:22Speaker 06

  Um, astonishing. Well, I don't know. I mean, I guess so. You know, I guess it's astonishing, but you have to be curious, I suppose, or care. Or, I mean, what's astonishing to me is the fact that it was noticed every time by pathologists. No one said anything. It's not like a pathologist said, "Wow, look at this finding that I'm aware of." Like, when I first had the, in my job as an anesthesiologist intensivist, I look at autopsies, but I don't, you know, I don't make a living at autopsies. So, to be sure that I was seeing what I thought I was seeing,

• 30:03Speaker 06

  I sent it to a colleague of mine, Mark Edgar, who's a pathologist. And I said, "Look, I've got this list. I'm not telling you what this is, okay? Just tell me what you see." You know, "What do you see?" And he came back and said, "Well, all these, you know, there's all these heavy lungs. Like, there's all this pulmonary edema. Like, what is that?" Like, he saw it immediately, without prompture. Like, belief is evidence-free, right? So, the people who believed this, you know, were immune to evidence, or immune to, you know, I don't know, an impartial appraisal. So, and I was surprised. I was. I just didn't think of it.

• 30:46Speaker 06

  You know, it's like the failure of imagination, where you just couldn't imagine it. But now that it's been seen, of course, you can't unsee it.

• 30:58Malcolm Gladwell?

  Zivit wrote an academic article describing his findings, thinking he had to share what he'd found with the world.

• 31:05Speaker 06

  I've had trouble getting this published. So it's now available as something called a pre-print. So it's easy to find as a pre-print. And it goes over this. I certainly.

• 31:20Malcolm Gladwell?

  Why have you had trouble getting it published?

• 31:22Speaker 06

  Because people don't want to publish it. You know, it's like it's something that I can't place. You know, it's so, I don't know, grisly, unusual, that to put it in the medical journal, you know, it just doesn't, can't seem to find the journal for it.

• 31:41Malcolm Gladwell?

  We are now at the second stage of the failure cascade, indifference.

• 31:48Malcolm Gladwell?

  We'll be right back.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.

• 32:33Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. In military families, service is more than a job. It's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors through education. If someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military.

• 33:02Speaker 07

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• 33:44Malcolm Gladwell?

  Let us tell the story of John Parker's execution a second time. Tom Perry was there, remember? He pledged that he was willing to go all the way.

• 33:53Speaker 04

  Execution day, you know, we started, we went in early that, I think John was executed around six.

• 34:02Speaker 04

  But we go in and it's just a good day. John's family was close to us. We tell the family, anytime you need a minute and you don't want us here, it's probably about five or six of us. I think they limit the room to 15 people on the Vista. We call it the Vista yard, but it's just a little room. In fact, my Christian community air-conditioned and put in new chairs because it's so uncomfortable. It was these big metal picnic tables with these little round metal benches that were just tortured. We bought some chairs and tables and put air conditioning in, you know, so the inmates can have some comfort when they visit.

• 34:43Speaker 04

  But we just visit, we sing a little, but then they say we're getting too loud, so we have to quit singing. But we just talk and visit and get to know some of John's family that we had not met before. So John and anybody else can have a soft drink, anything they want. One thing I will tell you that, that I think goes unsaid, the, the death squad, the officers that perform it. At Atmore, they do everything in their power to make it as dignified. Anything they could do for John and any of the 12 or 13 I've been with, within reason,

• 35:23Speaker 04

  they would do to make that last day as good as they could for the inmate. They don't get enough credit for that. I mean, there's certain rules they can't break, but anything they can do within reason, they do it. But anyway, so we go and then you can tell when the clock starts getting, and we'll have, you know, usually they'll, we'll do some serious praying and then we call it circle up. That's something we would do on our weekends before we leave. We make a big circle and, and we pray out. Are you familiar with the song Surely the Presence? Surely the presence of the Lord is in this place. I can feel his mighty power and his grace.

• 36:07Speaker 04

  You know, I can hear the brush of angels' wings. I see glory on each face. Surely the presence of the Lord.

• 36:18Malcolm Gladwell?

  They sang that a couple of times. They gathered for a prayer. Then they made their way to the execution chamber.

• 36:24Speaker 04

  We're over here and the Senate family's over there. John's in the middle and there's glass and I can see them, but I can't hear them and they can see me. And John's in the middle and, um, you know, and then he, he looks up at me, you know, and he says, you know, I love you, brother, and, uh, I thank you for everything you did for me and, and, you know, take care of my mom and dad. I promised him I would continue to communicate and follow up with him. And then he says with the Senate family, I'm sorry, I got involved in this situation. A hundred times I wish I could have taken him back. I was strung out.

• 37:05Speaker 04

  I was young and I was stupid and I hope that, you know, what happens today can give you, you know, some peace. And, um, and then. When they started, you know, it was a lethal injection and he rolled his hand. That's sort of a symbol. We get to hang with him, but when we split up, they won't do more physical contact when we leave. And as we go, you know, that was our, that was our deal. It means I love you. So that was our sign in Cairo. You know, I love you, brother. And he rolled his hands up on there and did that. And then, you know, I watched his bottom jaw, our mirror, just seen it start quivering. And it, and you know, it takes a lot longer than you think.

• 37:49Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yes, it does take a lot longer than you'd think. First, 100 milliliters of a sedative. After the sedative, Alabama's regulations require that, quote, "The team member positioned at the condemned inmate's left side will assess the consciousness of the condemned inmate by applying graded stimulation as follows. The team member will begin by saying the condemned inmate's name. If there's no response, the team member will gently stroke the condemned inmate's eyelashes. If there is again no response, the team member will then pinch the condemned inmate's arm." John Parker, John Parker, stroke, stroke, pinch, pinch.

• 38:32Malcolm Gladwell?

  Then comes 60 milliliters of rocoronium bromide, that's the muscle relaxant, then 120 milliliters of potassium chloride. That's supposed to stop the heart. Remember what Tom Perry said?

• 38:46Speaker 04

  It was peaceful. He didn't appear to suffer.

• 38:50Malcolm Gladwell?

  Well, yes and no. He didn't appear to suffer. That's because he was strapped down to a gurney and sedated and given a paralytic, so he couldn't struggle or cry out even if he wanted to. But of course he suffered. His lungs were burning up from the inside and he had a long, extended moment of absolutely excruciating pain.

• 39:16Speaker 04

  Of course, his parents break down and they hugged me. And then I walk out, then I basically, I have a very good friend. He kind of takes me and takes care of me because I break down after I talk to the family. But did that kind of describe it for you?

• 39:31Malcolm Gladwell?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:33Speaker 04

  It's, it's a hard, hard day. In many ways, it's a joyous day up until, because you just, you see this goodness everywhere up until, as far as John was concerned. You ever seen a picture of John?

• 39:51Malcolm Gladwell?

  No, I haven't.

• 39:52Speaker 04

  Hold on, I've got it. It's funny, I keep this in my office, right by my license.

• 39:57Malcolm Gladwell?

  You keep that, that, that memorial of his-

• 40:00Speaker 04

  Right here, and, and I've got-

• 40:01Malcolm Gladwell?

  Next to your license.

• 40:03Speaker 04

  Yep, actually in the frame, I stick it in the frame and I keep it here, so. Well, this is, this is a, oh, you can see me, a much younger version.

• 40:17Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Speaker 04

  Think it was June of 2010. This is John's father, Petey Parker.

• 40:23Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 40:23Speaker 04

  His mother, Joan Parker, that's his brother Bert, and John in the middle. And that was the day of his execution, the, the institution took the pictures for us. That means a lot, they don't give the three or four pictures in the entire family. One of me and their family photograph. I mean, that, that's why I cherish this. Now Malcolm, I'm trusting you, because I don't want anything to degrade or insult John's memory. So please don't do that.

• 40:56Malcolm Gladwell?

  I will not.

• 40:56Speaker 04

  John, um, uh, Tom Hefflin told me you were okay. Or I wouldn't have spoken to you because I would be heartbroken if something defamatory about John-

• 41:07Malcolm Gladwell?

  Don't, no, no, no.

• 41:08Speaker 04

  Please don't do that.

• 41:10Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah, don't, don't be, you should have no concern, yeah.

• 41:13Speaker 04

  And I'm trusting you now Malcolm, not to do that to John and his memory.

• 41:18Malcolm Gladwell?

  Tom Perry was the one who bothered to care.

• 41:30Malcolm Gladwell?

  If you're wondering why people get so upset about the death penalty, it's this. It's that the people who are in favor of it like to believe that it represents some great symbolic manifestation of society's judgment. But in fact, their method of choice is something that some guy dreamt up in an afternoon and no one ever got around to checking. Symbolic manifestations of society's judgment should not be dreamt up on the back of an envelope. And if you're wondering why we're spending so much time on this, it's because the story of the long day in the maw of the Elizabeth Senet case is about to get worse. Much worse. Next time on Revisionist History.

• 42:15Speaker 08

  Thank you. Just got home from work and he called me and he said, "Well, Mom, can you come?" He said, "The police are here."

• 42:23Speaker 09

  Then I went to Atmore, which is where Holman is. Visited with Kenny that morning. We were still waiting for the 11th Circuit's decision.

• 42:34Speaker 06

  What is taught either in nursing school, or as an EMT, or as a doctor, cannot be lifted into the death chamber. Like, it's not the same place. These people are not patients, you know? They're not collaborators to you.

• 42:50Speaker 10

  There's been a great deal of media coverage, both local and national, about what happened in Kenny Smith's execution chamber. Much of that coverage has seemingly been openly sympathetic to Smith and his cause, even with some going so far as to advocate for the abolishment of the death penalty.

• 43:23Malcolm Gladwell?

  Revisionist History is produced by Lucy Sullivan, Ben Nadaff-Haffrey, and Nina Bird Lawrence. Additional reporting by Ben Nadaff-Haffrey and Lee Hedgebeth. Our editor is Karen Shikurji. Fact checking by Kate Furby. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Production support from Luke Lamond. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence. Original scoring by Luis Guerra with Paul Brainard and Jimmy Bott. Sound design and additional music by Jake Gorski. I'm Malcolm Gladman.

• 44:03Malcolm Gladwell?

  You can get this entire season now, ad-free, by subscribing to Revisionist History on Pushkin Plus. Sign up on the show page on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm/plus. Pushkin Plus subscribers can access ad-free episodes, full audiobooks, exclusive binges, and bonus content for all Pushkin shows. For I don't know how long, maybe 12, 13 years, I've worn a Whoop band on my wrist. I started doing it because I met the founder of Whoop at a conference. He heard that I was a runner, and he said, "Oh, you'll love this. It's perfect for athletes." And he was right. I've worn one ever since. Every time I work out, I see how hard I worked,

• 44:46Malcolm Gladwell?

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• 45:15Speaker 11

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