The Loneliness Epidemic — with Dr. Vivek Murthy

Dr. Vivek Murthy, the Surgeon General of the United States, joins Scott to discuss why Americans are reporting extreme levels of loneliness, and how social isolation leads to negative health outcomes. Dr. Murthy also shares his framework to rebuild our social infrastructure. Follow Dr. Murthy on Twitter @vivek_murthy. Scott opens by discussing why investing in distressed assets offers a great ROI. i.e. why JPMorgan would want First Republic Banks. Algebra of Happiness: removing toxicity from masculinity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Scott Galloway?

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• 0:48Speaker 01

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• 1:18Scott Galloway?

  Episode 248. 248 is the area code covering parts of Michigan. In 1948, the Honda Motor Company was founded in Hamamatsu, Japan, and diamond rings became synonymous with marriage and engagement due to the De Beers ad campaign, which had the iconic tagline, "A diamond is forever." My partner and I decided that we would act like we were married without the ceremony. She stopped giving me head and I stopped pretending to listen. I came up with that on my own. Go, go, go!

• 1:58Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the 240th episode of the Prop G Pod. Let's reminisce a little bit. The first one, the first Prop G Pod was, I was in, was at the Rosewood Myakoba. And Oswat the Motoran was our first guest and I did it literally from the basement of this home we had rented in the resort. And there was no one there because it was two weeks into COVID or maybe a week. So let's talk a little bit about me. And this has nothing to do with today's news or our script. I had talked to, or we'd had a couple epidemiologists on the pod talking about the Wuhan virus and there had been some deaths at senior homes in Washington. And we're all trying to figure it out. And I called him and I said, can you help me get my

• 2:42Scott Galloway?

  head around this? And he said, Scott, this is worse than anyone thinks. And so I went into our office at the time, we had just started our ed tech company, Section 4. And in a incredible rookie move, I had leased a ton of office space, fancy office space in Soho. When I went in, and what freaked me out is all 10 people in this huge space were sitting very close to each other. And I said, everyone should go home. I'm getting out of New York. I've just talked to this very smart guy from the University of Maryland, who says New York's about to get hit hard. And it was the first time, I think, or one of the first times where age and neuroses had started to take over in a good way. And I put together the spreadsheet of, I wanted a low density resort. I wanted a place that was an hour or less dry from a good hospital,

• 3:24Scott Galloway?

  an hour or less flight from a world-class teaching hospital. At that time, I thought, or I had read somewhere that the virus didn't like heat, so I wanted somewhere hot. And I came up with the Rosewood Myakoba and called everybody and said, all right, get the kids, let's get on it. We're going to the Rosewood Myakoba. Every time, I thought it was kind of like fucking crazy. And we went to the Rosewood Myakoba. And one of the only other people there was Troy Aikman, who was quarterback at UCLA when I was there. Anyways, we ended up being there for about three, three and a half weeks. And that's where we launched the Prop G Pod, was at the very outset of the pandemic. Little reminiscing, what does that have to do with anything we're talking about today? Almost nothing. Almost nothing. Anyways, what's happening? Unfortunately, bad news in the banking sector can't seem to let

• 4:07Scott Galloway?

  up. That's the bad news. The good news is, it looks like it might be ending, or at least let's hope so. First Republic Bank became the third bank failure of the year, and the second largest in Banking history. J P Morgan, the nation's largest bank, is acquiring most of First Republic's assets, including 173 billion in loans, roughly 30 billion of securities and 92 billion in deposits. They will also register a one-time gain, get this, of 2.6 billion on the deal. However, the Financial Times reported that J P Morgan is expected to spend 2 billion on restructuring costs over the next 18 months. Restriction means firing people such that they can begin to clock, I think it's going to be about 500 million in additional EBITDA a year. And if J P Morgan trades, and I'm going to guess somewhere between 6 and 10 times EBITDA,

• 4:49Scott Galloway?

  that means that they're going to get another 5, I don't know, what is that? Another 3 to 5 billion dollars in market cap? This is just, this is, there's no getting around it. This is an amazing deal for J P Morgan. I'll come back to that in a second. At the time of the firm's earnings, it was reported that its stock, and when I say the firm, First Republic, had lost 93% of its value. In a statement, J P Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon said, "Our government invited us and others to step up, and we did. This acquisition modestly benefits our company overall. It is accretive to shareholders, it helps further advance our wealth strategy, and it is complementary to our existing franchise." So first off, let's talk about the biggest winner here. The biggest winner here is J P Morgan. I have worked, invested in, or been an operator in every part of the capital stack. What do I mean by that?

• 5:33Scott Galloway?

  I've started companies, that's literally the inception, or tried to find angel investments from friends. I've literally raised money 10 and $50,000 at a time for some of my companies. Then there's venture, where you go get an institutional venture capitalist to put in 2, 3, 10, 30 million dollars. Then there's kind of growth, where a bigger fund thinks, oh, there's a good chance they're going to go public, we'll put in much more than that. Then there's public markets investing, mature company investing, then there's declining, and then there's distressed and bankruptcy. I have found, I have found on a risk-adjusted basis that the best returns, if you're just an economic animal, are in the distressed part of the economy. Why is that? We are biologically driven. Everybody wants to hang out with Tom Brady and Gisele.

• 6:16Scott Galloway?

  Everybody wants to hang out with the hot, cool, good-looking, exciting companies, right? The gross stuff, the shit that's on fire. "Hey, do you want to invest in OpenAI?" "No," said no one ever. The old stuff, right? Old people smell a little bit funny. Old people, you're polite to them, but you're not very nice to them. I've noticed that at parties, when my friends bring their parents, everyone's polite to them, but no one's really interested in hanging out with them. Essentially, I think one of the reasons that old people or the grandparents have such a special relationship With their grandkids is grandkids illuminate just how ageist our society is. And that is when my kids see their grandparents, they just think, oh, my God, these are the most interesting people in the world. What, what is interesting in the eyes of a four year old?

• 7:01Scott Galloway?

  Someone who brings toys and lets you do whatever you want. And instead of having dinner, gives you Oreos and lets you eat Sour Patch Kids until you throw up and then, and then gives you pistachio ice cream. That is interesting in the eyes of a four year old, but you see just the sheer excitement that these people get from kids. And it makes you realize that nobody else reflects that sort of interest in these people. Anyways, long winded way of saying distressed companies are old people. And that is we're ageist. We discriminate against them. We don't find them interesting. We think they're close to death. We're scared of death, so we don't want to be around them because they remind us or these companies remind us that our businesses might fail and that we at some point are going to die. However, however, one of the keys to ROI is going into something that's under invested.

• 7:46Scott Galloway?

  And when everyone's buying Miami condos and the prices get radically bid up beyond any sort of cash flow they could create. If you rented them out or any sort of reasonable cash flow you could create if you rented them out, then you know that the prices are about to come way down. And then when the prices come way down and you can't give these things away and they're under invested, that's the time to swoop in and buy. Miami real estate is probably overpriced right now. It was probably underpriced in 2011. I actually bought a bunch of apartments in 2011 and 2012. Probably the best investment I've ever made. It's what I call my winter. Remember that movie with Billy Crystal, who's a comedian in the USA going on cruise ships? Was his winter? These places are my plan B. If I again, yet again, fuck up my professional life and go back to not being financially secure, I'm going to go collect rent, bang on doors, collect rent and coach Little League.

• 8:31Scott Galloway?

  That is just, that is my plan B. I will not sell these things. Kind of the smartest investment we have made. Anyways, you want to go where other people don't want to go. You want to run into the fire and people hate distressed assets. That's because they feel old and they feel like they're dying. When Jamie Dimon and JP Morgan buy a distressed asset that has systemic risk to the whole nation, basically the government comes in and backstops it and says, all right, heads we lose, tails you win. Basically, the government is absorbing a lot of the downside risk here while letting JP Morgan capture a lot of the upside. This is going to be a fantastic acquisition. By the way, by the way, the best acquisitions usually, usually. Are corporate orphans. What do I mean by that? I co-invested with Apollo and Yahoo.

• 9:16Scott Galloway?

  I love Yahoo. I have sentimental value for Yahoo. Specifically, I'm trying to invest in companies that are pushing back on some other players of big tech. But effectively Yahoo went from being one of the most valuable tech companies in the world to an also ran. And Verizon purchased it thinking we need to go vertical. They saw what AT&T did with Time Warner in some weird, I don't want to be left out thing, bought Yahoo. Did that make sense? It made no fucking sense whatsoever for Verizon to own a digital content company. Yahoo had given up on search. Think about this. Think about how just strange this is. Yahoo owned search and they decided we need to be in digital content and took their eye off the ball and basically seeded $150 billion high-margin business to Google. Probably one of the greatest strategic missteps in history. Anyways, fast forward, what, 20 years later?

• 10:01Scott Galloway?

  Verizon just wants out. And so they sell to Apollo for, I think, about $5 billion. Apollo turns around, sells Yahoo Japan. They get a billion or billion and a half, billion dollars on the balance sheet. Effectively picked up what is the fourth or fifth most traffic site in the world for $2 billion. This was an incredible acquisition. When a corporation decides they want to out, the highest bidder is not the only consideration. See, but they just want out. And so they are typically the best sellers from an acquirer standpoint. There are kind of three things you want to look at in an acquisition. Is the market growing? Are you getting it for the right price? And do you have the right guy or gal running it? Usually if you can tick all three of those boxes, which is hard to do, only a third of acquisitions work out. But if you can tick all three of those boxes, you usually do okay.

• 10:46Scott Galloway?

  Jamie Dimon and JP Morgan are running into the fire here. They extracted not even a pound, but a ton of flesh from the government to back this because the government wants to move on from this. I thought the PNC was going to acquire. I didn't think the Biden administration would let JP Morgan, the biggest bank by assets, under management. They have 16% of all deposits. There's about 17 banks that I think control about 75% of all deposits. That doesn't sound too concentrated, but maybe it is too concentrated. But I didn't think the Biden administration would let JP Morgan acquire this. I thought it was going to go to PNC. It ends up, they did what actually you could argue they're supposed to do. And that is, the auction wasn't who's going to pay the most, but who's going to cost us, meaning the FDIC, the least. And I think it's going to end up costing the FDIC.

• 11:31Scott Galloway?

  And then about 12 or maybe 16 billion, I forget, which still leaves the FDIC pretty healthy. This is not costing taxpayers a dollar. Why? Because the FDIC is an off-balance-sheet organization that takes fees, collects fees based on the assets under management and creates an insurance fund such that if there's a bank failure, they step in and deposits up to $250,000. They cover it. Now, now, this gets to the heart of the issue. And that is that $250,000 limit, which above the FDIC no longer ensures, is kind of nebulous sort of bullshit. And that is of the 53 banks that have failed in the last 30 years, 52 have had all their deposits covered. And I think the 53rd has an 800 number on the FDIC's website, which I've been to.

• 12:15Scott Galloway?

  It says if you add over $250,000, call this number. In sum, it sounds like every depositor has been backed in bank failures by the full faith and credit of the US government. And what happened at First Republic? I'm not even going to talk about what led to their downfall, increasing interest rates, poor risk management. But it's, at the end of the day, it's a bank run. It's a flight of capital. And that is 2/3 of their assets three months ago were from accounts or deposits that had more than $250,000. They were not subject to coverage by FDIC insurance see above, at least theoretically. As of the date of the acquisition, it was less than a quarter of their deposits under management qualified or had more than a quarter of a million dollars. Because in a frictionless banking economy where you can transfer assets out

• 12:59Scott Galloway?

  and you have more than a quarter of a million dollars, then why on earth would you take the risk? It's not hard to transfer your assets to a bigger bank. And this is effectively what's happened. There is FDIC insurance at JP Morgan or effectively FDIC insurance above $250,000 in deposits called the US government. No one's going to let JP Morgan go out of business because if all of a sudden 16 or now 17 or 18% of all deposits were under risk. You would definitely see, honey, get the Glock. We're going to the bank to get our assets. So. FDIC insurance, if you're gonna have a robust regional banking system and you want them to be able to attract assets more than a quarter of a million dollars, which isn't a lot, a lot of small businesses carry more than that on their balance sheet. Every company

• 13:43Scott Galloway?

  I've started has more than a quarter of a million dollars at some point in the bank somewhere, then they're gonna have to dramatically elevate the cap on FDIC insurance. But still, the cap is somewhat meaningless. What's the lesson here? A few things. One, it does look like the banking crisis might be, this might be the beginning of the end of the banking crisis. I don't think enough credit is given to the US government. I think you need a certain number of ring-fenced controlled managed bank failures. Why? It's like skiing. If you're not wiping out every once in a while, you're not skiing hard enough. And the modern miracle of the economy is the US banking system. Why? Because with a hundred dollars in deposits, they can loan out a hundred and twenty dollars. They can deploy a hundred

• 14:24Scott Galloway?

  and twenty dollars into the economy in the form of loans. And if that capital produces a six or eight percent of growth, you're not getting six percent, you're getting eight percent, because you're getting that six percent on a hundred and twenty dollars. It's probably 7.2 percent. But you get the idea. You feel me. You feel where I'm coming from. You get additional leverage, which grows the economy faster than it would otherwise. And how are you able to loan out a hundred and twenty dollars on a hundred dollars in deposits? As long as the people who deposit that a hundred dollars don't ask for their money back at the same time, you create sort of illusory capital, or synthetic capital that has the same growth, right? That has the same traction, the same opportunities, provides the same opportunities to buy more plants, property, and equipment, and hire people,

• 15:07Scott Galloway?

  than the actual money that was deposited. So, so, if you didn't have any bank failures, it would probably mean the economy isn't growing as quickly as it could. So I think this is actually a good sign. I don't want to say it's, you know, it's a great day for America, but I think that the government has handled this well. You want to run into the fire. Distressed assets usually spell tons of opportunity. And again, and again, you want to see where there's opportunity in dislocation and disaster, if you will. This is where the biggest opportunities investing are. It's distressed. And that is, and that is, my kids love their grandparents. We'll be right back for our conversation with Dr. Vivek Murthy to discuss the nation's epidemic of loneliness.

• 15:54Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from NetSuite. They say every day your business is late to AI. You might fall two days behind. So how do you keep up with the competition when they're only moving faster? Enter NetSuite Next. You probably know NetSuite, the AI-powered business management suite that securely connects all your data. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth, trusted by over 44,000 customers. NetSuite Next is the next big leap in how business gets done because AI is built into everything you do. It automatically surfaces customer insights throughout your day. AI agents work alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work. And anytime you have questions about anything, you can ask, just like you're having a conversation with a colleague.

• 16:38Scott Galloway?

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• 17:12Scott Galloway?

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• 18:32Scott Galloway?

  Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Dr. Vivek Murthy, the Surgeon General of the United States and Vice Admiral of the Public Health Service Commission Corps. I think the world of this guy. I think he is bringing back the gravitas and the kind of research and action orientation that we would hope from what is arguably America's top medical professional. I think the Surgeon General ship, whatever you would call it, has kind of become sort of a weird position. I think of Surgeon General Coop selling a Life Alert and daytime TV. But anyways, I think Vivek is doing a great job of sort of bringing back a certain clarity of thought and real actionable change and bringing key issues to light here. Anyways, big fan, obviously a big, big fan. Dr.

• 19:16Scott Galloway?

  Murthy, where does this podcast find you?

• 19:18Speaker 02

  I'm in New York City today.

• 19:20Scott Galloway?

  In New York? Are you on the media circuit? What are you doing in New York?

• 19:23Speaker 02

  I am. I'm based in Washington DC, but I'm in New York to do interviews for the, the release of our Surgeon General's Advisory on Loneliness and Isolation. I'll be traveling to LA next and, and more trips to follow.

• 19:36Scott Galloway?

  That's great. So in your recent op ed in the New York Times, you wrote that, open quote, "At any moment, about one out of every two Americans is experiencing measurable levels of loneliness." One and two. Let's start there. How did we end up with this epidemic of loneliness?

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Well, Scott, I think it's multiple factors over more than half a century that have brought us to this point. And the truth is loneliness has been building for years. We've had a reduction in participation in the community organizations that used to bring us together, like faith organizations and recreational leagues and civic and service-oriented organizations. But we've also seen that technology has dramatically changed how we interact with one another, how we communicate with each other, and not always for the better. You know, so while we have gained efficiencies from technology, we have too often replaced the in-person offline connections with online connections, which aren't always of equal

• 20:36Speaker 02

  or higher quality. And so I think we have suffered on that basis as well. But one last thing I think is critical to keep in mind here is that I just think we also haven't prioritized relationships in our life. And as simple as that seems, when the pace of life is changing so quickly, when people are moving around a lot more, changing jobs more often, dealing with the stresses and strains that are all around us, whether it's from a pandemic that we have been going through recently, or economic strains, we all need people around us. We need people to support us. We need, our relationships serve as buffers to stress, but we just haven't prioritized building them. I think we've assumed that they just happen, or they don't. But we now have to be intentional about rebuilding

• 21:19Speaker 02

  the infrastructure for social connection in our individual lives in our communities. And if we don't do that, I worry that we will continue to experience greater levels of loneliness.

• 21:29Scott Galloway?

  So some of the science that you highlighted in your op-ed is really staggering. You reported that lacking social connection can increase the risk for premature death as much as smoking, up to 15 cigarettes a day. And that insufficient social connection is associated with a 29% increased risk of heart disease and a 32% increased risk of stroke. It's even associated With an increasing risk of dementia. What is the science here? What is happening inside the body when you're not in proximity to others?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this is the part that's really fascinating because when you understand the science, you realize loneliness is a lot more than a bad feeling, but it can have real impacts on our health. Mental health increasing our risk of depression, anxiety and suicide. And the physical health effects are what you mentioned, which are profound. Here's how it works. Loneliness affects us on a biological level. So when we are separated from one another, that actually puts us in a physiologic stress state when we feel lonely. And the reason for that is that that think about thousands of years ago when we were hunters and gatherers. We actually needed strong trusted relationships for our safety, to make sure that we had adequate and stable food supply. We all needed to share our food. We needed to pool our resources.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  When we were separated from our group, that's actually when we were at greater risk of being eaten by a predator or starving from an insufficient food supply. So separation triggered a sense of stress within our body and that prompted us to quickly find our people again. What's interesting, Scott, is that even though our lives are dramatically different than they were in our hunter gatherer days, our brains and our nervous systems are remarkably similar. And when we feel loneliness, we feel the same type of stress from a biological level. And so when that stress persists for a long period of time, as it does when people are chronically lonely, that's when stress becomes bad. That's when it can have harmful effects

• 23:25Speaker 02

  and increasing levels of inflammation, damaging tissues and blood vessels, and increasing our risk of illnesses like heart disease and diabetes. The other thing just to mention too is beyond the biological effects. We know that when people struggle with loneliness, that's a real problem from a psychological perspective because a lot of us draw meaning from our relationships. In fact, the majority of people when surveyed say that their relationships are among the most important sources of meaning. So when we don't have that, it makes it harder for us to engage, including engaging on our health, which brings up finally the actual practices and behaviors in our life. Like I know from taking care of patients over the years, that a patient's ability to actually take their medications, go to their follow-up appointments, especially if they have

• 24:09Speaker 02

  really complicated chronic illnesses, that a lot of that is dependent on what kind of support they have around them. And if they're not supported, it's not only harder to do those things, but think about how much easier it is to fall off the wagon with your diet or with your physical exercise routine when you don't have buddies that you're accountable to, or people who are encouraging you every day. So you put all these things together and you see at a biological, psychological and behavioral level, loneliness has a profound impact on our health.

• 24:38Scott Galloway?

  I read your op-ed. You're what I call a really measured, balanced person. And I think one of the reasons you're so effective is you don't come across as political. I don't think people rear up and feel threatened or that in any way there's any malice that you're, you know, for lack of, but you're just seen as, you know, your aim is true. I immediately go to, okay, someone's at fault here. And I immediately go to social media that there's some studies recently showing that where we saw a real spike, especially in teen depression, is when social went on mobile. And I saw some recent research that absolutely blew me away. Two things, one from Jonathan Haidt and one from, oh gosh, I'm forgetting her name. She just did some, really some great research. And the first is the cohort effect, that the kind of the

• 25:21Scott Galloway?

  the solution to loneliness with kids who are on too much social media was just take Snap away. You negligent parent, it's your fault. And what they found is that when the kid is off of social media, he too, or she too, becomes depressed because they're isolated and ostracized from all their friends who are on social media. And that also, social distancing, the ultimate social distancing through the pandemic was caused by social media. That mental health is actually more a function of social distancing from social media than from the pandemic. So I find that the culprit here, I know there's a variety of factors here, but as always, and this is my go to, that social media firms who have an economic incentive in delaying and obfuscating

• 26:02Scott Galloway?

  anything around the externalities of the harms here are playing an enormous role in this depression and loneliness epidemic. Your thoughts?

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'm glad you raised it. And you know, when I mentioned that I think technology has helped us in some ways, but harmed us in other ways. This is one of the areas where, that I'm deeply concerned about, which is the impact of social media on our connection to one another. Look, now, I, I think many of the people who built social media platforms, built them thinking that they would foster greater community and connection. And while I admire the intention, I think we have to look at the reality of what's, what's going on right now, which is that when I talk to kids around the country, as I do very often, when I hold roundtables, when I travel, you know, kids tell me three things very consistently about social media. They say it makes them feel worse about themselves as they're constantly comparing themselves to other people online.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  It makes them feel worse about their friendships as they see their friends constantly doing things without them. But it also is something that they can't get off of. And that is the, the part that, that worries me too, that these platforms have often been designed to maximize the amount of time that people spend on them, not the quality of time that they're spending and the quality of relationships that they're building. And that has real impacts, you know, on us. It's not just the direct psychological impacts on how we see ourselves and others, but it's also the opportunity cost here. The time I'm spending online is time I'm not spending in person with other people. It's time that I'm, I'm not spending, you know, doing activities that support my health and wellbeing like sleep.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Like it turns out a disturbing portion of young people stay up till midnight or later on weekday nights using social media. These are, and I'm talking about kids in school, right? So, and it's robbing them of their sleep, which increases the risk of mental health concerns. So what we don't have, Scott, with social media is what we have for many other products that kids use, which are actual safety standards and data transparency, so that we understand the full impact of these platforms and that we hold them to account because. I just think that we are going to look back on this time, you know, in five years, 10 years, and ask ourselves, if we don't take action now, what were we doing at a time where our

• 28:13Speaker 02

  kids were struggling with their mental health and where social media has likely had a significant effect here? We've got to take action and and safety standards have to be a key part of that.

• 28:25Scott Galloway?

  But what does that mean? Because I think that there's general consensus and even the PR people at these social media companies will claim that we need something, you know, they publicly say we need regulation and then they deploy an army of capital and lobbyists to get in the way of all regulation. Do we need an SEC? Do we need criminal and civil penalties? Like, when you talk to other branches of the government, because if we don't create the right incentives and deterrence, quite frankly, and penalties and regulation, I don't think any amount of third places or parks or new leagues is going to compensate for the damage of when your kid goes into his or her room and goes down a rabbit hole and starts getting more reaffirmation, they should be depressed or getting shamed, whatever it

• 29:10Scott Galloway?

  might be, you know, on and on and on. But what what do you think we need to do specifically? Do we need a regulatory agency? Do we need more more punishment here? What would be your advice?

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think there's the thing is, we need several things. Number one, we need clear rules, right? And rules around what age is appropriate, what safety standards have to be met. Let me be clear about what I mean by safety standards. Right now, kids are exposed to a lot of harmful content online, whether that's violence, whether that's hate speech, whether it's pornography, and it's happening to young kids, too, right? And we've got to ensure that the kind of safety standards we put in place are ones that demand and require platforms to create environments where kids are not exposed to these kind of harmful, you know, content where they aren't designed features that are pushing them to maximize the amount of time spent, particularly during sleeping hours. We've got to make sure also

• 30:07Speaker 02

  that that there aren't features that are actually having a negative impact directly on the mental health and well-being of kids and that aren't also driving content to them, algorithms that are driving content to them that's harmful. Like, I talk to parents often who tell me that Well, the child wasn't doing well from a psychological perspective and they happened to to type in the word suicide, uh, you know, into a search or when they, you know, consumed a video that had content related to suicide, suddenly they were pushed all kinds of content uh that was not helpful to them. One mom told me that she was having a very difficult time because her kid was getting all of these videos that suggested, you know, teaching him how to actually take his own life. Uh, and in some cases, encouraging

• 30:49Speaker 02

  him to do so as a way of taking control uh of his life. And she was, as any parent would be, was absolutely uh just incensed that this was happening and in disbelief that such content would be pushed to her child. But the safety standards need to prevent these from happening. But the other thing that's important, in addition to having rules, Scott, is that they're actually enforced, right? Right now, in in theory, platforms have a rule that thirteen year olds uh, you know, and above are allowed to use their platforms. Yet, why do we have forty percent of kids seven through twelve who are on social media? That doesn't make sense, right? If we're actually going to be enforcing rules. So they've got to be enforced. And I just don't think we're in a place where

• 31:31Speaker 02

  we can rely on the industry itself or individual companies to self-regulate and to to figure this out by themselves, because it's been more than a decade and we've not seen, I think, the kind of changes and the the extent of changes that we need to truly protect our kids. And one of the reasons, you know, I've spoken publicly about this as well, about my concerns about the age at which kids start using these products, the lack of enforcement, about the need for, not only for safety standards, but also for data transparency, because researchers are telling us, independent researchers who are trying to understand the full impact on mental health of kids, they're telling us they can't get access to the full data from the companies.

• 32:08Scott Galloway?

  So you're proposing a national framework to rebuild social connection in the United States. What does that look like?

• 32:14Speaker 02

  So what it looks like is six pillars that we have laid out that actually will help guide us in how we rebuild the social fabric of our country. And I'll sort of quickly take you through a couple of those, but the, one of the key pillars, you know, that we, that we talk about in the advisory is about rebuilding our social infrastructure in our communities. What is social infrastructure? Well, these are the programs and, and the structures that actually support the development of healthy relationships. These are the, the opportunities for people to, to gather, you know, sponsored by their YMCA. These are the, the church and synagogue gatherings. These are the, the school programs that teach kids about emotions and about building healthy relationships.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  But these are also the workplace cultures that bosses and managers can help cultivate that help people build relationships with one another's. And finally, there's an infrastructure component here too. Like think about our, the fact that our infrastructure in our cities affects how easy it is for us to walk and come and see one another and interact with, with people in our community. All of this is part of the social infrastructure that we need to rebuild. But the second pillar that we lay out in this infrastructure has to do with, with policies, with the fact that in the government, we think that we always think about the financial impact of our policies. What I worry about is that we don't often enough think about the social impact of our policies. Sometimes well-intended education or transportation policies may actually have the untoward effect

• 33:39Speaker 02

  of creating more separation or physical barriers in communities for, to make it harder for people to see one another. But the third thing we've got to do, the third pillar is around the healthcare sector. We've got to mobilize our healthcare sector to get involved here. That means training doctors and nurses to be able to identify loneliness and isolation. It means insurance companies actually supporting and paying for services that will help people build greater connection in their life, particularly elderly patients. So this is part of the health sector involvement. And then the last three that I'll mention briefly is, you know, we have a call here to reform digital environments, you and I have been talking about that because we've got to make technology something that supports healthy connection. And we brought to our fifth pillars around research and knowledge. Now, there's a lot we know now about the impact of loneliness, but this is not an

• 34:24Speaker 02

  area that we have prioritized in research as a country. You think about the stat you mentioned at the beginning, Scott, one in two adults who are reporting measurable levels of loneliness. This is more than the number of adults who have diabetes in the country. It's more than the number of adults who smoke in the country. We should be devoting more resources to this. But there's one last pillar, a sixth pillar, which reminds me actually of conversations you and I have had in the past, which has to do with how we build a culture of connection. You can't legislate culture, you can't pass some rule that creates the culture. Culture is built by you and me and all of us in our communities, by what we think, what we believe, what we feel and how we treat each other. And what I worry about, Scott, is that it now feels, and I encounter so many people

• 35:08Speaker 02

  around the country who say it feels like we've become somehow mean spirited. It feels like we don't care about one another, that we're, everyone's just out there for themselves. But to me, like the foundation of a truly connected society is a core set of values centered around kindness, generosity, service, and connection to one another. And we've got to bring those values to life. We've got to put them center stage and we bring them to life by acting on them, by having leaders who actually model those values, by selecting and choosing leaders who speak to and live up to those values, and by designing workplaces and schools that also teach kids at a young age about these values and live out these values in practice.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  So to me, this is a critical part of how we build a culture of connection and what we need to do to ultimately create a more connected America.

• 35:58Scott Galloway?

  When I look back at my childhood and I think about the opportunities for socialization, I played sports after school. I was a member of a Boy Scout troop. On weekends, I'd go see my dad and his second, third, or fourth wife, and most of them would take me to church. My Boy Scout troop, 42 has gone away in Culver City. I don't know if it's because of demographics. I don't know if it's because of the bad reputation that Boy Scouts got. I don't know what it is. I know that economics have led public schools to cancel a lot of after-school programs. Is there some sort of economic program where we could offer subsidies or additional tax breaks to nonprofits that are in the business of getting large groups of people together? Like, how do we, what type of programs lift, get everyone thinking about opening parks and leagues and places of worship again?

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Well, it's a really good point, Scott, and I do think that we need a couple of things here if we want to truly resurrect those community institutions and build new ones, which is, we've got to make it clear to the public and to the country that this has to be a priority. Right now, it's not clear to people that we need to rebuild our social infrastructure. Many people don't even remember the days when folks used to get together in the ways that you're describing. But the second thing we've got to do is we've got to lay out a series of, as I think of it, guidelines, frameworks, a pathway for how people can go about doing that in their communities, so that we can empower local organizations, workplaces, and individuals to come together and to create these types of gatherings. And the third thing

• 37:26Speaker 02

  we've got to do is support them with material funding and resources. And right now, look, there's a lot of money that governments at all levels, local, state, and federal, you know, put toward addressing health and building infrastructure. To me, this is an important area for us to invest in, a place where I'd like to see government overall invest more and to see the private sector work together with the public sector to fund these kinds of initiatives locally, because these matter. And, look, I'll just tell you one quick story I think about that speaks to the power of what individuals can do. Some years ago, I was introduced to this incredibly inspiring woman named Sarah Harmeyer, who had just moved to Dallas, Texas. She got there.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Didn't know anybody. She was single. She wasn't in a relationship, so she didn't have like a built in network for somebody at home and she felt lonely and she wasn't quite sure what to do, but she wasn't finding organizations, associations that were bringing people together. So she one day just had this idea of inviting people over for a meal. And it seemed actually quite risky at the time because she thought, well, what if they don't want to come? What if they're already busy with their own families? What if I look like a loser because I don't have anyone around me? All of these worries were going through her head. But her and she also had a small place and she thought, well, my place is small. I can't really entertain people. But her father actually came and came in and said, you know, I'll help you build a table, a big wooden table that you can put outside in the yard and you can just have people

• 38:49Speaker 02

  over for a potluck. So that's what she decided to do. And she sent an invitation out to all of the neighbors and the response Scott utterly overwhelmed her. Everyone wanted to come to this party and they showed up, they brought food, they bought drinks, they had an incredible time together. What she did is she would just go around and say, hey, you know, this is Vivek, he's a doctor. This is, you know, Brian, he's a lawyer. This is John, he's a plumber. Here's what he does, you know, have a good time chat. She invited people to pour drinks and do dishes and just make it their home. And this became a lifeline for not just for her, but for so many people in the community. And she realized that those neighbors, even a lot who had been there for a long time, they were feeling lonely and isolated too. So Sarah Harmeyer's neighbors

• 39:34Speaker 02

  table, you know, as we came to call it, became a gathering point for people in her community. This is what individuals can do, you know, in addition to the organizations that we need to step up.

• 39:45Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, I love that. And just a couple, I think about this a lot because I'm naturally an introvert and as I get older, it's weird. I think all of us at certain points in our life feel a sense of loneliness and people and it's embarrassing to say because you're worried that it it it outs you as someone who's not as successful or as masculine as you'd like to think. And there's two hacks I would suggest to almost everybody. The first is just say yes more. It's, you know, Netflix and your dogs are always calling to stay home and to try and push the limits of your comfort zone and say yes to more invitations. And the second thing, and this has been more liberating and I think an easier hack. Is to separate the person from the politics because it doubles the opportunity for relationships.

• 40:28Scott Galloway?

  And I live in Florida and I'm surrounded by people who do not share my political views. And I found myself getting a tighter and tighter and narrower set of social circles because I was turned off by someone's political views. And the reality is 40 years ago, people didn't know what their neighbors' political views are. And quite frankly, they didn't care. They just knew that, oh, Bob seems like a nice guy. You know, I mean, why wouldn't I have a beer with him, right? Now I immediately go to, well, he's a Trumper. I want nothing to do with this guy. And you immediately shut off 50% of potential relationships. Anyways, Vivek, how old are your kids? They're five and six. Based on your research and what you're seeing here, how is your approach to fathering changed

• 41:12Scott Galloway?

  or gonna change? I guess, do you have, well, I'll start. When my kids were younger, I was very much the ambition dad. Have you done your homework? I always felt it was my role to teach them lessons, to coach them. This is what you did wrong here. This is how you do better. And then as I've gotten older and I've become much more aware of these mental health issues that are just, really are a crisis among our kids. You know, you have your world of work, you have your world of fun. Something comes off the tracks when you're kids, your whole world shinks to that. And I've kind of, I won't say I've gone 180, but I'm no longer the ambition dad. I'm like, how do I build that in my kids? How do I build that sense of, that sense of mental and emotional well-being and ease and confidence?

• 41:56Scott Galloway?

  And if they don't end up at college, I'll be disappointed. That's meaningful, it's not profound. And I try to do, every day I try to coach less, if you will, or reprimand less or discipline less, and find something they're doing and just say, wow, you're great at that. Or, God, I just think, you know, I told my kid the other day, I'm like, God, I just can't get over how handsome you are. I don't know where you got that. You know, just every day trying to build them up and make them like themselves more. Anyways, I'm done with my virtue signaling. What do you do each day to try and give your sense that self, your kids that sense of self and confidence?

• 42:31Speaker 02

  Well, first, I just love that we're talking about this because this is the stuff I think parents need opportunities to talk about more with each other so they can learn from each other. And I'm learning from you as you're talking. But I think dads in particular, it's not something we tend to talk about a lot with each other. What I do is, first of all, make sure that my kids know that I love them. I tell them often, you know, I'm very physically affectionate with them.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  And they're an age where they let me, so I'm gonna take full advantage of that and keep hugging them as long as I can. But I want them to know that they're loved because we know that secure attachments are one of the greatest predictors for kids of happiness, fulfillment, health, and economic success. The other thing that we do with our kids also is we do try to make sure we are always pointing out the things that they are doing well. Right? So whether that's, you know, doing a good job practicing the piano that day, or whether it's being good about, you know, maybe taking the initiative to like, you know, say hi to somebody that they were shy around. But it could be small, it could be big, but we try to highlight that for them. I want to be clear though, because many people think that what you and I are talking about, you know, is perhaps too soft or it could be construed as too weak.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  It's not at all. You know, like, we can both be disciplined with our kids and encourage them and push them to do more and support them in times of adversity and not shield them entirely from adversity. While we're also making sure our kids know that they are loved, that they are supported, that they remember what they have going for them and all the beauty they have inside them. Those two things are not incompatible, but prior, earlier generations thought they were. Like, I remember many parents in my parents' generation feeling like if you complimented your kids too much or told them that they were good, that that would make them unmotivated. And that it was the lack of something, the lack of compliments, the lack of approval from their parents that would become a driver for success. And I just, I think that just leads to pathology, you know, down, down the line.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  And I think, Pete, we need to affirm our kids, we need to encourage our kids. And we need to, you know, support them in the adversity that they take on. Because kids also grow through adversity, but they grow the most when they know that they have support, that they've got people who love them, whether they succeed or whether they fail.

• 44:44Scott Galloway?

  Is this so assuming the president gets reelected, you with Obama, you might be in Washington another six years or longer. Is this your, is loneliness your thing? Is this your thing that you're, if of all the health issues, whether it's pandemics or preparing for another pandemic, or vaccine research, or obesity, there's just so many issues. And my sense is to be effective, it's not what to do, it's what you don't do. What's your focus? Is loneliness going to be your thing?

• 45:15Speaker 02

  So this is to me, I'd say that my most important focus is I'm going to remain on mental health and well being and within that. The issue of rebuilding social connection and community is my top priority, the area I'm most interested in, but also most concerned about. Because I think Scott, that if we want to, if we want what I suspect you and I want, and what parents all over the country want for our kids, which is to be healthy, to be happy, to be fulfilled, to be productive members of society, and to inherit a world that is welcoming and open, and that's full of opportunity. I don't see how we can do that when we're increasingly fragmented, when we're more and more distant from one

• 45:56Speaker 02

  another. Like I think about the future pandemics all the time. There's something we have to prepare for. How are we going to manage the next pandemic when it comes through if we aren't invested in one another? We don't know one another, feel connected to each other, if we're all out there by ourselves. You know, the data is really interesting. And when you look at communities that have a high degree of social connection, they have lower rates of violence, they have higher economic prosperity, they're more resilient in the face of natural disasters like hurricanes or tornadoes, because they pull together, they help each other more. And so this is the issue that for me is the central focus, you know, of my tenure as surgeon general, because I just think it's foundational, Scott. We just can't do the things we need to do. We can't overcome adversity and build a future

• 46:41Speaker 02

  we want for our kids when we're fragmented and separated.

• 46:44Scott Galloway?

  Dr. Vivek Murthy serves as the 21st Surgeon General of the United States and the Vice Admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service Commission Corps. While serving as Surgeon General, Dr. Murthy is focused on drawing attention to a number of critical public issues, including the growing proliferation of health misinformation, the ongoing youth mental health crisis, well-being, and burnout in the health worker community, and social isolation and loneliness. He joins us from New York City. Vivek, I think you are doing such important work and you bring such grace, this unique combination of grace and intellect. I really think you're making a big difference and really appreciate your public service.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Well, that's so kind of you to say. It means a lot coming from someone whose work I've admired over the years. And so, thank you, Scott, for this conversation, for your friendship, and for all the good work that you're doing to help lift up the mental health challenges that our kids are facing. I appreciate you.

• 47:40Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

• 47:45Scott Galloway?

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• 48:30Scott Galloway?

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• 48:53Speaker 03

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• 49:30Scott Galloway?

  Algebra of Happiness. I'm about to finish my book called The Algebra of Wealth: Strategies for Economic Security. And one of the things I'm doing to try and stay mentally fit, in addition to physically fit, is writing books. It's the hardest thing I do. Every time I start it, a new book, I'm angry that I agreed to do another book. But it keeps me... It's hard, and I think it keeps me mentally youthful, if you will. Anyway, I'm thinking my next book's gonna be on masculinity. And this is, I apologize, a little bit redundant from the Pivot Podcast, where I talked about the same thing. But I've been spending a lot of time finding videos and interesting examples of men who I think demonstrate a dimension of masculinity. And first, you'd have to define it,

• 50:15Scott Galloway?

  which I'm still in the midst of doing. But what we have is, I would argue, not only a crisis in loneliness, but a crisis in masculinity in that we decided that masculinity was toxic. And because we didn't want to address the issues around addiction, incarceration, loneliness, mating inequality, suicide, very real issues. And because people saw it as politically incorrect to, in any way, show compassion for men into that void, jumped in people like Andrew Tate, who basically used it as a means of, you know, promoting misogyny and just a weird fucked up sense of masculinity, where, you know, buy McLaren and treat women like property, and oh, that's how you regain masculinity. And nothing could be further from the truth.

• 51:00Scott Galloway?

  Anyways, I found three examples of what I would like to believe demonstrate this new form of masculinity. And we need to take this... We need to take masculinity back and redefine it. And rather than try and define it, I just want to play these videos and give a brief description of what I found was so... Important and inspiring. The first is a video from Michael J. Fox.

• 51:23Speaker 04

  My life is set up so I can practice as long with me if I have to.

• 51:27Speaker 05

  You've not squandered any of your capacity, but at some point Parkinson's gonna make the call for you, isn't it?

• 51:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's banging on the door. Yeah, I mean, I'm alive. It's getting harder. It's getting tougher. Every day you suffer. But, but that's, that's the way it is. I mean, you don't receive it.

• 51:48Scott Galloway?

  Here, Michael is showing his vulnerability. This is someone who's known for his comedic acting. You know, he's probably not gonna go down as one of the greatest actors in history, but he's having a really meaningful impact on the world because most men are afraid to show their vulnerability. And what you do when you show your vulnerability is you say to the rest of the world, I'm struggling. And if I'm someone famous or someone strong, the temptation would be not to show that side. Nobody wants to, or I think few people have the courage to reveal that kind of vulnerability. And there's no doubt about it. This video is rattling when you see this guy who, if like me, kind of grew up with

• 52:27Scott Galloway?

  him, to see just how much he's suffering visibly. But he's made, he and his family have made the conscious decision to say that this type of leadership, this type of vulnerability, will make it easier for other people suffering from Parkinson's. And there was a time when if someone had Down syndrome, you hid them from the public. There was a time where we didn't talk about, you know, our mother's breast cancer. We didn't talk about our prostate cancer. We didn't talk about our kid engaging in self-harm. And until you start talking about those things, it's difficult to address them because people can't relate to them and don't think they happen to them or the people they know. And they do. The second video is from Joe Rogan.

• 53:08Speaker 06

  We should be taking care of our own. This should be a primary thing, like this to strengthen our community, to strengthen our civilization. One of the primary things is we should be taking care of each other physically. This should be... Like, bu- bu- above all, right? Education. You shouldn't have to fucking be in debt a quarter million dollars if you get a fucking education. Don't we want less losers?

• 53:30Scott Galloway?

  I think this is an important video because I think Joe Rogan is someone that a lot of young men look up to. Uh, he's an amazing physical shape. I, I've watched videos on him and his fitness routine and I appreciate and admire just how fucking strong he is at his age. The guy is jacked and works out very seriously every day and I admire that and I think that is an expression of masculinity. I think we're meant to be strong. I've said several times that any, any man under the age of 30 should be able to walk into any room and know if shit got real, they could kill and eat everybody or outrun them. You're gonna look back if you're a young man and wish you'd gotten as strong as possible because you'll marvel at what is the human male form under the age of 30. It's okay as you get older, but there's something about that form that is in that strength,

• 54:13Scott Galloway?

  in that bone structure, in that double twitch muscle that is just remarkable at that age. Anyways, uh, enough about me slobbering off Joe's physique. In addition, he communicates in a way that young people, especially young men, really, really appreciate. And he just kind of burst into this moment of empathy, talking about how important education and healthcare is, and more specifically that a lot of people don't appreciate what it's like to be unfortunate, that a lot of our blessings are just a function of our luck. And when guys like that, who are seen as tough and truth tellers in their own kind of, I don't know, aggressive, robust, masculine way demonstrate that type of empathy, I think we move the world forward.

• 54:56Scott Galloway?

  And then finally, the last video is from, uh, Michael Keaton and he's someone I just, I just think is a fantastic actor, whether it was Night Shift, I think he's a great comedic actor, Beetlejuice, uh, kind of went through a desert, a little bit of a desert of a career, uh, 10 or 15 years wasn't in a lot and then came back just so strong. It was a Birdman that he got best actor for and then, uh, I thought Dope Sick was one of the better mini-series I've ever seen. I thought it was so moving, so accurate, so well done, kind of a crowning achievement for him. And he just simply says, you know, spend more time with your kids.

• 55:32Speaker 07

  You know, I was having this conversation with Bill Hader the other day and he, he's, you know, was going through something. I said, dude, trust me. Hang out with your kids as much as you can, as long as you can. You will never regret it. You'll look back. You're gonna lose some jobs. It's okay. In the long run, that's the thing.

• 55:49Scott Galloway?

  And I find that a decent definition or a decent dimension of masculinity would be that you always, regardless of what a baller you are, attempt to find or allocate a lot of your spare time to just being with your kids, not necessarily doing anything. I think the whole notion of quality time is bullshit. I think there is no such thing as quality time because the thing about the randomness of children means that you never know when quality moments of time are gonna happen. They can happen in the car, they can happen over dinner, and the only way you get that quality time is through one thing, and that is time, and that's a lot of it. But we need to take back this space of masculinity and redefine more positive dimensions around

• 56:31Scott Galloway?

  it that says that being a man, and I recognize that there's, it's a continuum and that we need to respect everyone along that continuum, but for the 95% of the 47% of men who do identify with some sort of masculine attributes, we need to redefine what those are such that we can help our young men exhibit a more productive, a more modern, a more thoughtful, a more empathetic, and a more productive means of masculinity. That's all I have.

• 57:01Scott Galloway?

  This episode was produced by Caroline Shageran. Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy No Malice, as read by George Hahn, and on Monday with our weekly markets show.

• 57:28Scott Galloway?

  I like marriage jokes.

• 58:00Speaker 08

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• 58:09Speaker 09

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