Conversation with Mel Robbins — The “Let Them Theory” and How It Can Change Your Life

Mel Robbins, an award-winning podcast host, New York Times bestselling author, and renowned expert on mindset, behavior change, and personal growth, joins Scott to discuss the transformative ‘Let Them Theory.’ She shares how this simple yet powerful concept can improve your life and strengthen your relationships. Her latest book, The Let Them Theory: A Life-Changing Tool That Millions Can't Stop Talking About, is available now. Follow Mel, @melrobbins. Algebra of Happiness: don’t ask, just help. Subscribe to No Mercy / No Malice Buy "The Algebra of Wealth," out now. Follow the podcast across socials @profgpod: Instagram Threads X Reddit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:01Scott Galloway?

  Episode 332. 332 is the area code covering the New York City area. In 1932, Radio City Music Hall opened in New York City. True story, I was dating a Rockette when I first moved to New York and I went to go visit her in some like bad town in Chicago where they were on tour and I walked into their Days Inn room where they were all parting and saw a dancer, a man doing rails of cocaine off the ass of a little person. Not a joke, that actually happened. The dog loves New York.

• 1:34Scott Galloway?

  Go, go, go.

• 1:44Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the 332nd episode of the Prop G Pod. What's happening? The dog is howling back in the city. He's here howling at the Batmobile. I don't know where I go Batmobile. I'm having an amazing time. Let's talk about me. Let's bring this back to me. I know you're dying to know what's, what's going on. I'm a, where did I go? I came back, came here, did a week last week, then I did, oh, it's my son calling. I'll be back in a moment.

• 2:24Scott Galloway?

  Okay, so I'm back. So what happens when you speak to your son every night at 4:00 PM your time, when you're in New York, or 9:00 PM their time in London, and he calls you at 12:35, which he never does, you freak out. My son never calls me out of the blue in the middle of the day. And it's like, it reminds me of when you see, you look in the rearview mirror and you see sirens, like you're being pulled over, that kind of, you take a deep breath in. Anyways, that's what I just felt, but everything's fine. So back to me and my Arrested Adolescence tour through the United States. Friday, I went to Boca Raton, spoke at the Jeffries Conference, spent the weekend in Miami at the Faina,

• 3:04Scott Galloway?

  had a great time. And then I went to Houston for the day. Not so great, but a nice conference. Now I'm back in New York, and I think New York is absolutely on fire. I think this is a golden age in New York, and I think it's, I think it's wonderful. Okay, anyways, in today's episode, we speak with Mel Robbins, an award-winning podcast host, a New York Times bestselling author, and expert on mindset, behavior change, and life improvement. We discuss with Mel her latest book, The Let Them Theory, a life-changing tool that millions of people can't stop talking about. So with that, here's our conversation with Mel Robbins.

• 3:43Scott Galloway?

  Mel, where does this podcast find you?

• 3:45Speaker 04

  You mean physically?

• 3:47Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, as in where? You know what I mean. Where are you?

• 3:50Speaker 04

  Well, no, you're a smart guy. So I'm like, is this a trick question? Is this like mental philosophical? I'm in southern Vermont right now, in my home, above my garage.

• 4:00Scott Galloway?

  You're legitimately the second biggest podcast in the world. How did you end up in South Vermont?

• 4:06Speaker 04

  Well, my son, who struggled with dyslexia and ADHD, undiagnosed, and bounced from public school to a school for kids with language-based learning disabilities, to a private school.

• 4:22Speaker 04

  Just was really struggling. And I said to him, dude, you can pick your high school. And at the time, we had been living outside of Boston for 20 years. Our two daughters had gone through the public high school system there and had a wonderful experience. And so I just thought, okay, we're living outside of Boston. He's going to pick a school in Boston. And all of a sudden, he's like, I want to go to a school in Vermont where my grandmother lives. And I'm like, but we don't live there. And he just kept pressing and pressing and pressing and pressing. And the honest to God truth, I can't believe I'm telling you this story, is that a psychic medium came on my, at the time, daytime talk show at the CBS Broadcast

• 5:07Speaker 04

  Center. I had told nobody that I had been fighting with our son, because we basically had gotten to the point in late December of 2021, no, 2019, where I had won, he was going to find a school in Boston. The whole conversation about Vermont was over. It was not going to happen. And then a psychic medium came on the talk show and my dead father-in-law appeared and spoke to me through the medium in this crazy story. I can tell you the whole story. It's unbelievable. And that caused us to move. And that's what happened.

• 5:45Scott Galloway?

  That was not what I was expecting. I thought it was going to be along the lines of I love the fall leaves, or my parents are here. I was not expecting to meet your dead father-in-law via a psychic. Wow, I'm gonna, I'm gonna self, I'm gonna hire a psychic to tell my wife we should move to St. Bart's. That's, that's the learning I have here. So your latest book, The Let Them Theory, A Life-Changing Tool That Millions Of People Can't Stop Talking About. You write about how to stop wasting energy on what you can't control and still start focusing on what truly matters. It feels a little stoic. You, and, and there was one thing that really stood out to us. You said that the single most powerful thing you discovered

• 6:31Scott Galloway?

  was at high school prom. So say more.

• 6:36Speaker 04

  Oh, God. Okay. Like, I can't believe that.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  This theory that has fundamentally changed my life, I discovered at my son's high school prom. So it was his junior year and like a typical mother, I was being super annoying and micromanaging, like shoving the boot near him, trying to micromanage what was happening.

• 6:57Scott Galloway?

  As a boy, just let me tell you, I think we need, we need some of that. I describe myself not as dad, but as their prefrontal cortex. So I would keep micromanaging. But anyways, I'm sorry, Mel, go ahead.

• 7:05Speaker 04

  Well, the problem is that micromanaging actually backfires. And, you know, I know this. I don't want to be annoying. And so here I am, like trying to control what they're doing and like I'm being, do this, do that, da, da, da. And my daughter was home from college and she just grabbed my arm, Scott, and yanked me towards her and was like, you're being annoying. Stop it. Let them, mom. Let them do what they want to do. If they want to run in the rain, let them. If they want to eat at the taco stand, let them. If he wants to ruin his sneakers, let them. It's their problem, not yours. And there was something about this cascading, let them, let them, let them. That it just hit me. My shoulders dropped.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  And I was like, wow, why do I care about this? Why am I getting so worked up about this? And I walked up to Oakley and he's like, what? Because I was being so annoying. And I said, nothing, dude. Here's 40 bucks. Go enjoy yourself. And then his shoulders dropped. And that wasn't the moment. The, the moment was the next couple of days. Because those two words stuck with me. And every single moment, Scott, where I felt annoyed or frustrated or upset or worried or judgy about something, I just said the words let them. And I immediately felt this release. And you're right to signal Stoicism, but it's not just Stoicism.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  Like the reason why the let them theory and these two words, let them, and then the second part is let me, and that's the more important part, the let me part. The reason why this has taken off is that it doesn't stand on its own. Like it has extraordinary roots in Stoicism, detachment theory, radical acceptance, Buddhism, all these therapeutic modalities. And if I get back to the point of intellectualism, I've always wanted to be Stoic. I've always wanted to be more of the kind of person that was not rattled by what's going on around me. I mean, I've read Viktor Frankl's The Man's Search for Meaning probably five

• 9:17Speaker 04

  times, but knowing something is very different than applying it. And so what started to happen for me is anytime I felt the outside world getting to me, or another person getting to me, when I said, "Let them," it was a tool that helped me apply ancient wisdom and philosophy and therapeutic modalities in a moment in modern life, when the outside world was getting to me. And after a week of using it, I was so different in terms of feeling peaceful

• 9:55Speaker 04

  and grounded and kind of unaffected by things, that I simply put out a reel on social media, and it was the single most viral thing I've ever put out. It was like 15 million views in 24 hours. And so then I naturally just did a podcast episode about it. And so I did one podcast episode in late 2023, and it became the fifth most shared episode on all of Apple for the entire year. And that was with like a runway of four months. And so when you have that much data and feedback from the world that something hits, I then

• 10:35Speaker 04

  turned it into a research project. And what we did is we started analyzing 10,000 comments on YouTube videos and on social media posts, and we crunched all the data, and a couple of things came up that were really interesting. First of all, universally, people love "let them." And in fact, tattoos started rolling in with the words "let them" all over the place. And the reason why people love "let them" is because the second you say "let them," you're not only applying Stoicism and detachment theory and radical acceptance and Buddhism in the moment, but you feel superior.

• 11:15Speaker 04

  Because when your friends go away without you and you're annoyed that they're on a golf trip and you're not, and then you go, "Let them." You kind of have a little bit of a like, "Fuck them," you know? When you say it, and that's why it works. Because when you rise above something, you feel better than it. But then here's what our research shows. The only complaint and concern, other than cannot use this with children, which we can get to in a minute, is I'm saying, "Let them." And I'm realizing, my boss doesn't care about me. I'm realizing my friends don't call me back. I'm realizing I'm the only one in my family that makes an effort, and now I'm deeply lonely. And I thought to myself,

• 11:59Speaker 04

  "There's no way in hell I want to put something out there in the world that's going to make people lonelier." So it can't just end with "let them." There has to be a second part. And it was based on that research that I came up with the "let me" part as the second step. Because one thing's very clear about life, and that's this. First of all, you can't control what's going on out there. And I've heard you say this over and over and over again. It's not what's happening out there. It's what's happening in here, which is where your power is. And the one thing you'll never be able to control is what another human being thinks, says, does, or feels. Period. Full stop. Cannot control it.

• 12:43Speaker 04

  And any time that you pour into trying to control what other people do, think, feel, or say, is just going to frustrate you.

• 12:52Speaker 04

  When you say "let me," you are reminding yourself that the power's always in here. Because there's three things in life, only three things you can ever control. That's it. Number one, you can control what you think about something.

• 13:07Speaker 04

  Number two, you can control what you do or don't do in response to it. And we forget that we always have control because we get to choose what we do or don't do. And number three, you get to choose how you're going to process the emotions that rise up. Are the emotions going to run you over and cause you to rage text or scream at people or withdraw? Or are you going to let the emotions rise and fall and process them in a way that's responsible? And let's look at this word, you know, responsibility and taking responsibility for your life. Responsibility is just the ability to respond. That's what it is. And so let them.

• 13:50Speaker 04

  Allowed me to detach from things I can't control, which then protects my time and energy. And so I'm no longer feeling drained by life because I'm letting people be who they are and letting them be who they're not. And recognizing my power is not in managing them. My power is in managing me. And then when I say let me, I'm cueing myself to the truth about life and relationships. And that's that you always are in control and you always have the power.

• 14:22Scott Galloway?

  So, uh, yeah, I, I, that resonates. I've, I've say a lot and it gives me a great deal of comfort. Life isn't about what happens to you, it's how you respond to what happens to you. And the biggest regret people have at the end of their life is not the, the bad things that happened to them, but how upset they were about them. And so just trying to recognize, and I also find, and I'm curious, I'm an atheist and I find that atheism helps me embrace what you're talking about in the sense that everyone I'm worried about or angry at or concerned, they're going to be dead soon and so am I. So why wouldn't I just be more kind to myself, more kind to them? And just kind of move on or just try and make the most of it. The little bit of pushback where I would love to get some nuance from you around kids.

• 15:06Scott Galloway?

  I think I have a middle, I have two boys, middle school and high school. And I struggle with the balance of what you're talking around, around let them. I, I think it's important that young men, and I imagine girls, although I'm not raising girls, make dumb mistakes and occasionally do something stupid and maybe even risk breaking a bone. When I was in the third grade, it looked like an ER room with casts and eye patches. And seriously, when's the last time you saw a cast in an elementary school? And I think. That's both good and bad. So I like it when we let our kids, boys, make mistakes. But at the same time, there's certain things, certain harms in a modern economy that I do think we have to step in on. And the way I have bifurcated it, and I want to get your

• 15:46Scott Galloway?

  view on this, is generally speaking, I find that we overprotect them offline. And I am a big believer in embracing, and I'll use it again, and I'll credit you to let them philosophy. At the same time, I think we underprotect them online. And I think we need to become much more helicopter parents around their activities online. What are your thoughts?

• 16:12Speaker 04

  Well, I wouldn't call it a helicopter parent. I'd call it being rational and smart. Like, we're not handing our kids cigarettes and then pretending it's not hurting them. So, you know, I'm, I, 100%, there should be no phones in schools, period. And kids should not have smartphones until the age of 16. Now, I screwed this up. The research has come out since. I would do things very, very differently. And one of the things, giant caveat around the let them theory is that this is a book about adult relationships, and it applies to adult children and teens in their late teens. However, when you're

• 16:52Speaker 04

  talking about dangerous, destructive, discriminatory behavior, you don't just let that play out. That's the let me part. You step in. This is what I got wrong. Because ultimately, the let them theory is a book about freedom, power, and control. What you can control, and what you can't control. And I personally worked against the fundamental wiring of human beings for 54 years. See, I thought that since I had to push myself out of bed, Scott, I gotta push everybody else. And what you're going to learn when you start saying let them and let me, and when you dig into the research, and this is again, research that I learned from speaking to some of the world's leading psychologists

• 17:37Speaker 04

  and researchers on the topic, whether you're talking about Dr. K, the Healthy Gamer, or you're talking about Dr. Stuart Ablon, or you're talking about Tara Swart, or you're talking about, you know, on and on and on, I could drop names of the psychiatrists and psychologists and addiction specialists and people that study motivation and neuroscientists who are cited in this book. But the simple fact is this, every human being, including your children, have a hardwired need for control. It is part of our survival mechanism. There is no changing it. Every human being needs to feel in control of their thoughts, their actions, their future, their money, their decisions, what they're eating.

• 18:19Speaker 04

  This is why kids freak out when they don't want to eat something that you want them to eat, because they need to feel in control. And here's the mistake that we make. When somebody else's behavior, whether it's your adult kid or it's your teenager, they're doing something that worries you, bothers you, frustrates you, hurts you, whatever, concerns you. We cross the line because their behavior makes us feel out of control, and we then try to control them. Here's the problem. The second you step across the line and try to control your teenager, or your adult child, or your friend, or your colleague, or your partner, you're now bumping up against their hardwiring and their need for control.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  And so, your behavior, worrying, pressuring, trying to bribe people, like whatever it may be, supporting people, you're trying to motivate behavior change? You're actually not motivating change. You create resistance to change by bumping up against their need for control. And here's what I was getting wrong. So, I'll give you an example. So, we were talking about Oakley earlier. He was not motivated in school. Why? Because he's not doing well. Do you want to know who the hardest working kid in a classroom is? It's not the kid getting As. It's the kid who's failing. Because they know they're failing. They know they're not reaching their potential.

• 19:45Speaker 04

  You want to know who the hardest working friend of yours is on their health? It's not the one going to the gym every day for two hours. And so, here you and I come in, and I, you know, can hear Oakley playing Fortnite upstairs, and I think he should be studying. So, what do I do? I go marching up the stairs, and I swing open the door, and now I'm like, dude, you got to get off the Xbox. You don't think he knows that playing Xbox isn't going to help him at school?

• 20:16Speaker 04

  You don't think that your partner knows that going for a walk is going to make them feel better? Like we're some sort of Einstein that knows better? It's a beautiful thing to want something more for someone else. It's a wonderful way to love somebody, to see their potential, and to be concerned that they're not reaching it, or they're sabotaging their happiness, or their health, or they're dating some loser that treats them like garbage. Wanting more for the people that you care about isn't the problem. But if you're like me, you're actually worrying about it and going about it in the wrong way because you're working against human wiring instead of with it.

• 20:57Speaker 04

  And so what I discovered is a completely different approach. It's this approach where you're with them instead of at them. And I learned, I summarize it in the research. I call it the ABC loop because I'm obsessed with making things easy and memorable because if you can't remember it, you're not going to use it. And this is the approach I used with our son, changed everything. It's the approach I now use with anybody that I would like to change their behavior because there's one thing you can never do. You can never change another person. But I never said you couldn't influence them. And so the ABC loop summarizes all of this incredible research

• 21:41Speaker 04

  from all these super smart people. And here's what you're going to do. If you're in a standoff with somebody about their weight, or their grades, or their job, or their finances, or whatever it may be, or their mental health, start with A, apologize, and then ask open-ended questions.

• 22:01Speaker 04

  And if you really stop and think about it, when I stop and think about the situation with our son, I had been nagging this kid forever.

• 22:10Speaker 04

  Hadn't worked, hadn't motivated him, but I continued to do it. And so when I finally apologized, dude, I'm really sorry. It must be a giant pain in the ass to have me constantly nagging you. I'm really sorry about that. I'm going to stop doing that. First of all, they're going to be startled. Then you ask open-ended questions, and this comes from Dr. Kay and from Dr. Stuart Ablan, and this really is this technique motivational interviewing, where you're just gonna ask, you know, I've never even asked you, how do you feel about school? And here's the most important thing, it doesn't matter what they say, Scott. Like Oakley was like, fine, and shrugged his shoulders.

• 22:52Speaker 04

  And then you just say, okay, well, what's fine about it, hon? And it doesn't matter what he says. He might be like, I don't know. And then you're gonna drop the really big question. This comes from Dr. Ablan's research. You just say, well, have you thought about what you might want to do about it? Now, have you noticed there's zero pressure there? Have you thought about what you might want to do about it? Now, this is what Dr. Ablan calls the with them approach. And your kid or your loved one has been doing nothing but thinking about their weight, or thinking about the fact that they don't have a job, or thinking about the fact that they're the loser at school that has no friends, or thinking about the fact that they're really sad and down, and they wish they didn't feel that way.

• 23:36Speaker 04

  Of course, they thought about it, but you haven't asked them, because you think you know all the answers. It's how I was, because I was so worried. Have you, have you thought about what you might want to do about this? There's no pressure, and it doesn't matter what they say, because the whole point of asking open-ended questions is you're excavating this tension that they feel about where they are versus where they know they'd like to be. And that tension is critical for them to feel the intrinsic motivation and the why that is necessary for a human being to not only do something once, but to source the

• 24:18Speaker 04

  motivation to do the very hard work to change. And then you're gonna move to B, which is back off. You gotta back off for three to six months, because again, come back to control, Scott. For anybody to want to change, they have to feel like it's their idea. You know, and in talking to a bunch of people about the let them theory, there is a sentence that kept coming up over and over from psychiatrists, which is, people only get sober when being drunk is harder than doing the work to face what you're running from.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  And that's also a principle about human wiring, which is our brains are wired to default towards what's easy. It's why we sit on the couch instead of going to the gym. It's why we think about our business plans or we watch your podcast and my podcast instead of starting our own. We move towards what's easy. Change requires us to work against our own wiring and do what's hard, which is why it's got to be somebody else's idea if they're going to do it, which is why you've got to back off because they've got to have the space to sit with the tension and to also feel like they're not going to get penalized by you and me when they actually do the thing and we're not going to be standing there going, "See, I told you it would be easier than you thought.

• 25:37Speaker 04

  See, I told you that you'd feel better if you went for a walk." And then the final thing is C, which is you've got to model the change. Like, I can't be asking my husband to stop drinking while I'm pouring wine. I can't ask somebody else to get in shape while I'm sitting on the couch. And any forward progress, here's the really important thing, don't be telling the person, "Oh, see? I told you it was easy." Tell them you're just proud of them. So proud of you. I know this isn't easy. I'm really proud of you. Because that affirms their agency over themselves and their ability to change on their own.

• 26:13Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

• 26:17Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from NetSuite. They say every day your business is late to AI, you might fall two days behind. So how do you keep up with the competition when they're only moving faster? Enter NetSuite Next. You probably know NetSuite, the AI-powered business management suite that securely connects all your data. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth, trusted by over 44,000 customers. NetSuite Next is the next big leap in how business gets done because AI is built into everything you do. It automatically surfaces custom insights throughout your day. AI agents work alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work. And anytime you have questions about anything, You can ask, just like you're having a conversation with a colleague.

• 27:01Scott Galloway?

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• 27:34Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Upwork. Trying to scale your business? At some point, you're probably going to hit a point where you need some help. Sometimes, the best way to break through that is bringing in the right talent at the right time. Upwork can help. Upwork is a one-stop platform where you can find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across more than 125 categories. Whether you need specialized skills for a single project or extra support to keep up with demand, it's easy to connect with experienced professionals, review their work, and find the right fit. You can move faster without taking on the commitment of full-time hires. And for businesses that need the very best talent, Upwork Business Plus provides access to the top 1% of freelancers on the platform. AI-powered matching connects you with qualified candidates in under six hours, cutting down the time spent searching.

• 28:18Scott Galloway?

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• 28:45Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Vanta. As AI adoption grows, so does your company's security risks and requirements. New frameworks, audits, and vendors keep piling on, but your team isn't getting any bigger. Most compliance tools promise automation, but you're really stuck doing all the work by hand, chasing screenshots, validating controls, and playing catch-up when audit season comes around again. Vanta works differently. The regentic trust platform is built to scale with you, not slow you down. With over 1,400 automated tests across 400-plus integrations, Vanta collects evidence and monitors your controls year-round, cutting your audit prep by 82%. Plus, you can access the Vanta agent everywhere you work, whether your team is in Vanta every day or living in tools including Claude or Cursor. Want proof?

• 29:30Scott Galloway?

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• 29:54Scott Galloway?

  So let's go, let's leave childhood, let's go into young adulthood. And specifically, I think a lot about young men. And one of the things I think is really hurting young men, fewer engaging with work, engaging with school, and I think most detrimentally, not engaging in relationships. Only 1 in 3 men under the age of 30 has a girlfriend. 2 in 3 women under the age of 30 has a boyfriend. And that might sound mathematically impossible, but it's because young women are dating older because they want more economically and emotionally viable partners. And one of the things I find is most useful about being in a relationship for a young man is that relationship oftentimes implements very healthy guardrails. I know it did for me. My girlfriend very crisply told me,

• 30:38Scott Galloway?

  "If you keep getting high every night, I'm not going to have sex with you. I'm going to leave." I mean, "If you don't put on a tie and get into work by 9, we're going to fire you." I found these relationships were really important for me because my prefrontal cortex had not caught up. To my female peers until I was 25. I literally kind of didn't get my shit together until I was 25.

• 31:02Speaker 04

  I think that's early. Hit me till I was 54.

• 31:06Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, still, still, still getting is still a current, a present term as well. So how do you balance this? Well, one, do you agree with that? And two, how do we help young men who may not have the option to be in a relationship? For whatever reason, to provide some of those what I think are healthy guardrails? How can we, how can we develop behavioral therapies or provide an environment for young men? Where they can, they can improve themselves, love themselves, do, you know, quite frankly, just perform better with an increasingly competitive society? If in fact, they don't have the benefit of a relationship.

• 31:48Speaker 04

  I think the biggest challenge is hope. Like, like I, I said earlier, I think the single biggest thing that stands in people's way is being discouraged. Feeling like it's not going to make a difference. And, you know, you said something that's interesting. I can't remember the exact phrasing, but it was something about, you know, a, a man not having the option. See, the thing that I truly believe is that we have lost sight of the power and agency that we have over our own lives. We have become obsessed with looking out there. And for people in their twenties and their thirties and even younger.

• 32:29Speaker 04

  You are literally growing up and your psychology and neuropathways and your nervous system are being programmed. To have this habit of always referencing out there for okayness in here. And that is a massive problem. And for young men, I am deeply concerned about how toxic the online dating scene is. I'm deeply concerned about how everybody has Frankenstein'd their filters. And done a checklist of creating an AI version of a human being that they would like to meet.

• 33:12Speaker 04

  And then everybody's discouraged, whether it's the guys are discouraged because all the guys are going for the same four women. And all of the women are going for the same four guys.

• 33:21Scott Galloway?

  Let me just press pause there and and we'll get some paint on this. I think that's more true of women than men, Mel. Eighty percent of men who say, what if you could find someone with eighty percent of what you want? Eighty percent say they would like that. Two thirds of women say that's not enough. I think a lot of media has trained women to immediately, you know, X out a guy. I and you can't tell women to lower their standards, but I think the dynamic.

• 33:45Speaker 04

  No, yeah, you can. I think everybody needs to, because I think we've gotten to a point. Everybody needs to lower their standards, because everybody needs to step out of the fantasy world of online and back into the reality. Because what I say is this, a lot, there's so many people who are now no longer dating. I'm not online. I'm not dating online. Are you talk? I saw you do a reel about this the other day. But if you want to meet somebody, then act like it in real life. Are you talking to people in line? Are you having an open posture towards life?

• 34:21Scott Galloway?

  Leaving your house.

• 34:22Speaker 04

  Are you saying hello to people? Are you leaving your house? Are you going to barbecues in your neighborhood? Because there are eight billion people on this planet. There are people all around you, whether you live in a tiny town or you live in a big city. And using the excuse, again, discouragement, you're allowing and giving power to online apps over the most important thing in your life, which is who will become your life partner. And so, number one, stop giving the power to the apps. And if you are going to be on them, change all your filters. Open the aperture, which is what you need to do with your entire life. Open the aperture by going, I don't care about height. They can be fifty miles from here.

• 35:07Speaker 04

  I don't care about race. I don't care about income. I don't care about this. I don't care about that. Because the whole point of putting yourself out there is not just so that you can meet people, it's also so that you learn more about yourself and so that you become an open person. And the fact is, like, thinking and telling yourself a story that you're never going to meet somebody, or why bother, or the apps all suck, or dating is toxic, or the toxic culture of dating, don't participate in it. You give power to it if you talk about it and if you actually participate in it. And I'm going to remind you of something, and this is where let them and let me comes into play for twenties and thirties, something like unbelievably.

• 35:52Speaker 04

  Because part of the reason why dating is so difficult and relationships are so challenging is because you're up in a relationship with a fantasy instead of accepting the reality that's right in front of you. And number one, if you want a relationship, prove it. Get your ass out there, start talking to people in lines, change the filters, and this goes for men and women. Second, stop giving the power to the apps and realize that it's about how you show up in life. And third, understand, and this is something that I can't do for somebody, it's something that you can't do for somebody, but understand that your happiness, that your future, your

• 36:37Speaker 04

  earning potential, despite what the statistics say, and I love that you're talking about the reality of what's happened in the housing market. I love that you're talking about the reality of what is happening in research. And at the end of the day, at some point, you have to say, yes, and, and I still have power, and I still have within me the ability to learn how to think differently. I have the ability to get my ass off of social media and to the gym. I have the ability to watch YouTube videos and update my resume. I have the ability, just like Mel Robbins did, to pay off $800,000 in debt, not overnight, but by chipping away at it for 10 years.

• 37:22Speaker 04

  And that's the reality. And so I agree with you. What are we going to do about it? There's only so much that we can do about it because what I've learned in, in life is that there is a corresponding level of pain that is required in a human being's life. To organize the internal drive and motivation to say enough. I don't know how I'm gonna change. I just know that the way that I'm living my life is so painful that I gotta do something. And you don't have to know, like when I was 41 years old and $800,000 in debt and there were liens on the house and the anxiety was so bad, I couldn't get out of fucking bed.

• 38:08Speaker 04

  I didn't know what I was gonna do with my life, Scott. I just knew that I couldn't stand living the way that I was living anymore. And so, as dumb as this sound, it sounds like the Seinfeld episode. Literally, if you don't know what you want or what to do, do the opposite of what you're doing. If you're lying in bed all day, get the fuck out of bed. If you're tired of living at your parents' house, then stop playing video games and watch YouTube videos about how you can update your resume and get a job and make money. If you're tired of wasting time looking at influencers online and you've really loved to learn how to monetize online, then prove it. Prove it through your actions. Do what you don't feel like doing.

• 38:53Speaker 04

  That's how I changed my life. I realized nobody is coming. And at some point, you gotta wake up and realize that it's up to you. It's always been up to you. And when you accept that truth about life, that no matter how discouraged you are, no matter how overweight you are, or no matter what your grades were, or they weren't, or where you are, that doesn't define where you're gonna go. And that's not some just motivational bullshit. This is how anybody who has gone from a very low point in their life to something better has done it. It's not magical, it's grueling. You learn how to get out of bed when you don't feel like it. You learn how to put one foot in front of your next foot when you don't feel like it.

• 39:38Speaker 04

  And the, back to the adult kids, the more you continue to rescue your kids and you shield them from what Harvard's Dr. Waldinger says is the greatest teacher in the world, which is life, the more you shield people from learning from life.

• 39:59Speaker 04

  The more you keep them from changing their life. And this is also an epidemic in terms of what I see as a failure to thrive in kids in their late teens and their twenties is parents that have stepped in and tried to make things too easy for their kids instead of allowing kids to learn that when you get drunk with your friends and you sleep through work, you're going to get fired. And when you get fired, then you're not going to have money to go out and get drunk with your friends and you're going to take your job a little bit more seriously. I mean, you can call it tough parenting, but I actually think it's one of the reasons why kids are struggling, that too many parents have made it too easy for their kids.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  And that's why they don't know how to dig deeper and drive harder.

• 40:49Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, bulldozer parenting. On the Jay Shetty podcast, you said, "Love is two things, consideration and admiration." Say more.

• 40:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think love is just something that is omnipresent. It's so simple. So consideration is just having somebody in mind.

• 41:14Speaker 04

  I mean, when you make somebody a cup of coffee and you put in almond milk, even though you take whole milk, that's consideration for somebody. That's an act of love. When you hold open the door for somebody who's got their arms full of eggs, that's an act of love. You have somebody in mind.

• 41:33Speaker 04

  Admiration is the ability to admire something about somebody. And one of the things that really troubles me is we've become so polarized in this world that if you don't agree with everything that I believe, I now just cut you out or can't talk to you or dismiss you. And it's on both sides. And admiration is the ability, despite the fact that one of your parents might have a narcissistic personality style, to see that and...

• 42:09Speaker 04

  Still admire the fact that they're hardworking, or that they're loyal and they keep showing up. And so admiration is this ability to see the good in someone. And as you say, things aren't as good as bad, good or as bad as they seem. And there's this inability for us to hold space for other human beings, to see them as they are, to see them as they aren't, to accept them as they are and as they aren't. Because in that space of seeing that somebody can struggle, Scott, and they also have the capability inside themselves

• 42:54Speaker 04

  to meet the challenge of their life.

• 42:58Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

• 43:02Speaker 00

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• 43:30Speaker 01

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• 44:01Scott Galloway?

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• 45:09Scott Galloway?

  So you've been very generous with your time. We were talking about your husband off mic, and I've decided he's my new rabbi or best friend. Sounds like such an impressive dude. You know, say you're blessed with a partner, right? But you love this person immensely, and you want to not only enhance their life, you want to strengthen the relationship as you enter into years where maybe the kids are leaving and you're going to have, as you said, the most important decision you can make is your partner, and it's going to become even bigger in your life. Are there any unlocks you have found with your husband

• 45:49Scott Galloway?

  that have tangibly changed the quality of that of that relationship?

• 45:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we've been married 28 years. And it has been, you know, you go through a roller coaster of investing your life savings and cashing everything out and shoving it into one person's business, and then you lose it all. You have been to hell and back. And

• 46:17Speaker 04

  I think there's a couple of things. Number one, try to never forget who you married. Because they're in there. Like, I think we see the good in somebody. And we know there's good intent. And then your relationship becomes a death by a thousand cuts of things that build up that shield you from recognizing that that person is still in there. The second thing is, is I think a lot about a seesaw. And a relationship goes the distance only for two reasons. Because you have two people who want it to.

• 47:02Speaker 04

  And you have two people who are willing to do what it takes to make it go the distance. And if you think about your relationship like a seesaw, right? On a playground, there are going to be times where one of you is up, the other's down. Times when you're up, the other one's down. And then lots of times where you're in balance. And the simple secret is, don't get off the seesaw. Because the second you do, because you no longer want to work on it, or you no longer think it's going to go the distance, the whole thing breaks. And in any relationship that you've been in, where you look backwards, and it didn't work, you can see that way before the breakup, somebody got off the seesaw.

• 47:46Speaker 04

  And so, the first thing that I would say is, ask yourself, are you even on it? Because if you're not, it's not going to work. Now, for deeper insight, because my husband and I have worked with an awesome therapist for the last three years in our relationship. And it's been incredible. You know, one of the things that Chris has learned in leading men's retreats, because I, he doesn't really share a lot with me because it's confidential. But I've said to him, you know, what is like one big takeaway? And he has had a huge range of men, whether it's former NFL players or people that have done six tours of duty, ages 21 to 73.

• 48:30Speaker 04

  And they all come together for five days in the wilderness and to really talk about the meaning and purpose of life and their next chapter. And he said, the one thing is, is that every man that comes on my retreat says that they never have time for themselves because everybody's needs come first. And I was like, wait a minute. That's not true because women feel like, oh, we take care of everybody else. And you guys are out playing golf or watching the game. And that's not true. And he's like, oh, no, no, no, no. We feel a tremendous burden to provide,

• 49:14Speaker 04

  a tremendous burden to care for and to make sure everybody's okay. And it is such a hardwired thing, Mel, that most men, including myself, don't even know what we need because nobody's actually asked us. And truly embracing that is true. Has really changed our relationship because I started to think it is true. You know, Chris doesn't ask for much. He's kind of the silent foundation of our family. He grew up as the youngest of a family of three boys.

• 49:59Speaker 04

  And so it was just kind of go, go, go, go, go. And he was the caboose on the train. And

• 50:07Speaker 04

  It's taken a lot of talking back and forth for him to A. Start to understand what he might need. B. For him to express it. And C. For me, as his partner, to slow down and actually listen and provide it. And honest to God, Scott, it's everything from profound and things in the bedroom to the stupidest shit. That's actually everything. Like, for example, you know, there's a bazillion Amazon boxes that show up at people's houses these days. And I'm the kind of person that I get the box.

• 50:49Speaker 04

  I unpack the box, but then I don't flatten the box. I stack the boxes like a Tetris kind of statue next to the door to the garage. Chris has asked me 100 times to flatten the boxes. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And finally, one day, he sat me down. He said, listen, I gotta tell you something. He said, every time I see that tower of boxes by the door, I literally feel like you're standing there giving me the middle finger. Because I have asked you to flatten these boxes. And, you know, I, of course, would interrupt him and say, well, I'm just gonna do it later. Like, why do it one at a time and I do it later?

• 51:34Speaker 04

  He's like, I understand. And you don't do it later. And then I eventually do it. And it makes me feel like you think I'm the maid. And that I'm beneath you. And when he stopped and explained it like that, it hit me. Because I don't want him to feel like that. And here we are arguing about cardboard boxes when it's actually about being seen and valued in this partnership. And if somebody asks you to flatten cardboard boxes and they don't do it, you've got to let them. And then you go to the let me part, which is let me choose what I'm going to think, do and say about this.

• 52:19Speaker 04

  And so Chris chose to come to me and to have a conversation about the deeper implication that my behavior had on him. And this is very important. In a relationship, your behavior has an impact on other people. And that might not be your intention to impact somebody that way. But if a person that you care about comes to you and explains that your behavior is impacting them a certain way, you get to choose whether you're going to clean that up or not. And this gets back to your question about what is the definition of love? And I say it's consideration and admiration.

• 52:57Speaker 04

  I admire Chris for coming to me when he wasn't pissed off and sharing the deeper emotion under this, what seems like a dumb issue. And consideration and love looks like listening, acknowledging, and then changing. Because an apology with your words is cheap. A true apology happens with a change of behavior. And so after that conversation, Chris has to let me be me. That conversation is what changed my behavior, Scott. Now, I get it right about 80% of the time. There are days where it's super busy.

• 53:39Speaker 04

  I stack the boxes, but I'll text him and say, hey, I got caught up. I'm going to do the boxes later. That simple text is everything. Because what? I had him in mind. It's a way that I show him that his needs matter to me. And because I behaved the way that I did, I also am showing him through my behavior that I am a safe and loving person to talk to. And if you understand and you accept the research, which I do, that most men through the hyper masculinity of shut up and don't cry and don't be a baby, have been socially conditioned to never actually express

• 54:24Speaker 04

  or to share their needs. If you accept that as truth, which I do, anytime a son or a brother or a male colleague or a partner or anybody, your father, comes to you in life and shares a moment where they need something from you or they're expressing how your behavior impacted to them, fucking listen. Because it takes a tremendous level of courage and trust in you for them to come to you. And it is an example of somebody trying to change generational and societal programming to take accountability for

• 55:07Speaker 04

  the rest of their, for how their life is. And that's a huge thing. And so, you know, if you go back to your question too about boys, I would say that it has a lot to do too with how parents and other adults around young boys and boys in middle school are also modeling

• 55:33Speaker 04

  emotional intelligence, emotional resilience, the ability to talk about your feelings. It really matters.

• 55:42Scott Galloway?

  Just as we wrap up here, I did an interview, I think it was with Der Spiegel or some German newspaper. And they wanted to talk about Joe Rogan. I'm like, I'm sick of talking about Joe Rogan. I got nothing to say about Joe. You know, everything about Joe is already out there. And they said, well, who are the next, you know, things always change. Who is the next Joe Rogan? And I said, it's one of two people. It's either Stephen Bartlett. I don't know if you know Stephen.

• 56:06Speaker 04

  Of course, know him well.

• 56:08Scott Galloway?

  And I said, or Mel Robbins. And they said, well, what is it about them? What do they do that's different? And I said, it's not that they do anything that different. It's just they do every little thing a little bit better. I would love for you to provide some insight into any hacks or secret sauce. Around what has made your podcast, which quite frankly, the format's not that different. The subject material is not-

• 56:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, it is. I think it is.

• 56:34Scott Galloway?

  Well, then we'll start there. What advice would you have for either creators, podcasters, or entrepreneurs in general that has been an unlock for you and in your eyes has been a key part of your... There are 600,000 podcasts putting out content every week. Most weeks you are in the top five. Sometimes you're number one. What tips and insights would you have for other entrepreneurs and creators?

• 57:01Speaker 04

  Couple things. Number one, being good on the mic is the cost of entry.

• 57:07Scott Galloway?

  Have to have some talent.

• 57:08Speaker 04

  Well, no, no, no. Meaning, people over-focus on that. And I think that it's all the little things that actually make you incredible that people don't want to do. So, most people roll up to a mic, do an interview, and then post it. That's not what I do at all. And the other thing that I do that's very different is half of my episodes are solos. No interviews. And they are the most successful by far. And here's the huge tip that I will give you. Every business and every podcast is one-to-one.

• 57:53Speaker 04

  You will never hear me say the word "us." You will never hear me name my audience as some big community. I am only ever talking to one person. They are in their car, or they are in their home, or they are taking me on a walk. And the fact that a human being has not passing time, Scott, but they have chosen to make time to spend with me, I take that as one of the deepest and most important privileges in the world. And so,

• 58:35Speaker 04

  when you're on my podcast, I'm not actually talking to you, Scott. I'm talking to the person that has made the time.

• 58:44Speaker 04

  To listen to something that could improve their life. And so when I say every single business is one to one, and the mistake that people make is they think it's for hundreds of thousands of people. If you can actually move one person emotionally, if the thing that you've created is worth their time, they will share it with somebody else. Here's the other thing you'll notice. I never ask you to subscribe. I never ask you to follow because that's about me. My podcast is about you. Absolutely everything that we have been done comes down to the intention.

• 59:26Speaker 04

  Number one, it's a walk with a friend. And my job is to make you feel better and to move you. I've either moved you into action. I've moved you intellectually. I've moved you emotionally, or I've moved you to share. That's the intention of the podcast. The second thing then is one to one. If a person who has never heard of me, who has no clue who I am, has never even listened to a podcast, gets forwarded this from a friend, is it worth their time? And if we can check those two boxes, we've won. And for me, the success of this is a testament to those two things.

• 1:00:09Speaker 04

  The intention and the focus of who we're trying to impact and how. And everything we do is reverse engineered to fulfill against that.

• 1:00:21Scott Galloway?

  Mel Robbins is an award winning podcast host, New York Times bestselling author, and expert on mindset, behavior change, and life improvement. Her latest book, The Let Them Theory, a life changing tool that millions of people can't stop talking about, is out now. I love some of these quotes from media. USA Today said that you are a force to be reckoned with. Time Magazine said that you give millions of listeners around the globe a reason to believe in themselves. What a nice thing to have someone say about you. Congratulations.

• 1:00:54Scott Galloway?

  On all your success and I'm gonna, you're gonna see a lot of me because I've decided I'm now very good, good friends with your husband.

• 1:01:01Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:01:01Scott Galloway?

  Because I need him in my life. This guy sounds so impressive and supportive.

• 1:01:07Speaker 04

  He's fantastic. He is cool. I have to get in touch with you. And you know, the other thing I'm really excited to share with you is that this book is on its way to break all records for a nonfiction launch.

• 1:01:18Scott Galloway?

  Love it. Thanks so much for your time, Mel.

• 1:01:31Scott Galloway?

  Algebra of Happiness. Something hit me really hard this past few days. I've been thinking a lot about the fires, as is everyone in Los Angeles. Specifically, I grew up there, so I recognize some of the, I used to go on first dates at a place called Moon Shadows. It is no longer there. I, specifically LA for me was the incredible experience, the University of California, Los Angeles, which kind of inspired this inexorable upward spiral for me. Once I got my act together. And I absolutely love LA. I just think it's magical. And I think the reason why people will rebuild there, despite the fact that it's an epicenter for droughts, earthquakes, and fires, is because it's fucking magical. The collision of entertainment, beach, sky, sea, land, Mexican culture, the, you know, it's just so fucking

• 1:02:14Scott Galloway?

  fabulous. You wake up in February and it's 62 and dry with a light breeze. And then, I don't know, should we go to the Hollywood Bowl tonight and see, and see, you know, Dua Lipa? Not sure if she's played the Bowl. Anyways, or maybe just go hang out and walk along Zuma Beach, or go to In-N-Out Burger on our way to, I mean, I just, LA is, LA is amazing. And there's a reason why people take these risks. And I think the reason why it's going to build back better and stronger. Anyways, I was texting people, are you all right? Is there anything I can do? And this rabbi who I follow, a rabbi named Stephen Leder, who's in Los Angeles, said something, or wrote something saying, asking people what you can do or how you can help is the wrong thing to ask.

• 1:02:58Scott Galloway?

  Because people don't want to feel like victims. People don't want to burden you. It feels like a little bit of weakness to say, oh, I really could use help here. People don't do that. The right, the right way to help somebody is not to ask them how you can help. It's just to move to help. And that is show up and say, hey, I, I know you've got a lot going on right now. Can I take your dogs? Uh, do you need some help? Here's a picture of the room we have. So you live in Orange County. Here's a picture of the room. It's ready for you. Just come down. Uh, wire them money. That's what I've been doing and I'm virtue signaling, but I'm at a point in my life where I have more time than money. And so I enjoy giving money away. It makes me feel generous and masculine and I'm blessed that way.

• 1:03:42Scott Galloway?

  So I have been wiring money to people. I don't ask, uh, if I have their wiring information, I just wire them money. And then they call me and they say, what's this for? I'm like, uh, disaster relief. It's chaos out there right now. I hope it helps. Um, I'm a GoFundMe whore right now. I'm moving to action. I'm not calling people. I'm going to stop calling people and asking what I can do. I'm just going to move to do, the do part. And I think it's so powerful and not only that, it's so rewarding. I can't tell you the emotions and cementing of relationships it has caused or inspired amongst me and some people in the affected areas. When you just, you just help them. You just do something and you don't ask. You don't try and pretend you're strong or force them to admit they need help.

• 1:04:27Scott Galloway?

  You just do it. This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez. Our intern is Dan Shulon. Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn. And please follow our Prop G Markets Pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

• 1:04:52Speaker 05

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• 1:05:23Speaker 06

  A single click, a ransomware attack, a business lockdown, a demand for Bitcoin. These are real threats financial advisors are facing today. Hear how AI is transforming cybercrime, why these attacks are accelerating, and what advisors can do to protect their business, their clients, and their future. Tune in to If You Could for what's next.