How the Metaverse Might Actually Work — with Matthew Ball

Matthew Ball, a VC and author of “The Metaverse,” joins to discuss the winners and losers of the Metaverse, as well as some practical uses for the technology, such as in travel and defense. He previously served as the global head of strategy for Amazon Studios, so we also get his thoughts on streaming and potential acquisitions in that space. Follow Matthew on Twitter, @ballmatthew. Scott opens with his thoughts on Amazon and the healthcare industry. Algebra of Happiness: the last five minutes. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Northwest Registered Agent. Your business identity is everything that makes your business legitimate and professional. With Northwest Registered Agent, you don't just form a business, you start a complete foundation built for privacy, credibility, and growth. That includes registered agent service, a business address, operating agreement, domain, website, professional email, phone number, and built-in privacy. In other words, your home address, personal email, and phone number stay private. Don't pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for what you can get from Northwest for free. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/profgfree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/profgfree.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends, like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an Ultra. Because it's not just a superior-like beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 1:18Scott Galloway?

  Episode 181. Raiders of the Lost Ark premiered in 1981. People born in 81. Natalie Portman, Meghan Markle, Beyonce, Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, and Paris hell. True story, Justin Timberlake is a dyslexic. Take a moment and let that in sync. That's why you come here. Go, go, go!

• 1:47Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the 181st episode of the ProvGPod. In today's episode, we speak with Matthew Ball, the author of a new book called The Metaverse and how it will revolutionize everything. He's also the managing director of AppillionCo, a holding company that provides venture advising and angel investments. We discuss with Matthew the winners and losers of the metaverse as well as some practical uses for the technology, such as in travel and defense. He essentially presents the first case for the metaverse. It actually makes... Some sense to me. Maybe it's not a total head fake. Anyways, we also discussed the state of plight in streaming and potential acquisitions in that space, as well as what he learned spending several years as a firefighter in Canada. That's a good rap. Hello sexy. What do you do?

• 2:30Scott Galloway?

  I have a beard. I'm now in venture capital, but I used to fight fires. That is such a rap. I bet it's bullshit. Anyways, he's a clear blue flame thinker and has very sort of deliberate. I enjoyed his conversation and he was kind of sober around the metaverse. Let's go meta on the verse. Anyways, what's happening? What's the big news? Amazon is acquiring One Medical for $18 per share in an all cash deal valued at 3.9 billion, including the primary healthcare firm's net debt. Keep in mind, the stock was at 40 bucks around the highs and then it dove to 10. And so this $18 per share buyout is a good deal, but it's again, just gives you a sense for how far things have come down. I believe this deal represents the beginning of what should be an

• 3:14Scott Galloway?

  enormous unlock for society. Specifically, three major trends in our modern economy. The first was globalization, comparative advantage of nations, where we said, okay, you're better at manufacturing, or we can offshore pollution, or you have less regulation, or you're more talented at growing this type of crop. And we figured out ways to lower barriers and trade and tariffs and the entire world got a large tax cut. Except, what was the problem? A lot of people got left behind. A lot of the less competitive industries and people working in those industries that got pushed out or squeezed by globalization. We didn't reinvest any of that prosperity, any of that, those incredible games back in retraining those people.

• 3:57Scott Galloway?

  So globalization has resulted in tremendous prosperity, but not a lot of progress, which I think is a decent metaphor for what's happened in the United States over the next four years. Second big wave, digitization, the internet, right? Processing power.

• 4:10Scott Galloway?

  The web unlocked tremendous value. I think four of the five most valuable companies in the world are somehow related to the web. Is that true? Amazon? Or what is it? Most valuable company in the world is Apple, then I think it's Microsoft. Let's just assume I'm right. Anyways, an enormous unlock from the dispersion, which is the third trend dispersion. We've gone through globalization, digitization, and now dispersion. What do we mean by that? Amazon dispersed retail from shelves and stores to our porches and our laptops. We've seen Netflix disperse entertainment from movie theaters to our homes. I believe we're going to see education dispersed from admissions offices and campuses to our homes.

• 4:54Scott Galloway?

  People still go on campus, but I think there'll be more unbundling of the $700 billion education experience. You're already starting to see pressure on kind of the tier two schools. But the big opportunity that hasn't happened yet, the mother of all chances, is the dispersion of healthcare away from hospitals, away from doctors' offices, and away from regulation. The thing that just always blows my mind is if you think about it, 98 to 99% of the people globally who contracted, endured, and developed antibodies to novel coronavirus likely never entered a doctor's office, much less a hospital. We've figured out a way to push out healthcare to our smartphones, even its prescriptions, and the following. And I think this could be just an enormous benefit to society, specifically pushing healthcare more proactively, going on offense with preventive care,

• 5:39Scott Galloway?

  via the dispersion of intellectual property and healthcare to our smartphones, which basically 90% of the world has a smartphone now, offers not only to remove barriers around costs and intimidation, but also just to get out in front and create healthcare as an offensive, health-driven industry as a poster. They should really call healthcare sick care because you don't pursue it until you're really, really sick. In addition, it could just be an enormous unlock for caregivers. In terms of time savings, cost savings, it's just absolutely incredibly ripe. And who is better at sitting on a stack of information and then figuring out what they should go into vertically? Should we make batteries? We can do that. Yeah, let's go vertical.

• 6:22Scott Galloway?

  Okay, can we make Swiss vacuum cleaners? No, we can't. Let's put them on our platform and charge them 8, 12, 20, 34% of revenue to use our fulfillment, to advertise, whatever it might be. Amazon is better at turning data into actual commerce. They will do the same thing here. Imagine if you will, imagine if you will. Oh, and by the way, who can store all that data in a secure environment that probably might be at some point HIPAA compliant? I would bet on AWS. Now, some people are concerned about whether this violation or this violates antitrust. A lot of people said, Scott, how can you like this? You're always saying break them up. Okay, let me be clear. I don't think they're bad people. I don't think we should punish Amazon. I'm not angry. I'm not one of these Elizabeth or Senator Warren, all big companies are bad and millionaires are bad.

• 7:06Scott Galloway?

  That's just populist bullshit. I do believe in competition. I'm a capitalist. And guess what? When AWS is subsidizing a retail platform and every retail in America doesn't have a cloud division to subsidize the sales of products that creates a flywheel that no one else can compete with, then yeah, we should break them up. When, when Amazon leverages the fact they're one out of two e-commerce dollars and some they own the marketplace and they start advantaging their own products and their own retail offerings because they have access to data. In other words, they own the rails and they see what everyone else is shipping and they decide, okay, the most profitable things, we're going to put on the rails. And by the way, we're going to make it harder, harder for anyone else to use our rails that we decide to compete against. That is bullshit. That is anti-competitive.

• 7:49Scott Galloway?

  There should be regulation or Amazon fulfillment should be separated or broken up from Amazon, the core platform. Fine. Or they shouldn't be able to compete against their customers on the platform or advantage their own products, if you will. But, but when we're talking about healthcare, when we're talking about US healthcare that is somewhat fragmented, yet enjoys all of the power of monopoly abuse and continues to raise prices faster, I welcome Amazon. I welcome the deep-pocketed gangster from Seattle to come in and start kicking the healthcare industrial complex in the vasectomy equipment over and over and over again. I welcome this. Amazon, right on, my brothers and sisters. Go out for these guys. This is the mother of all chins. Other concerns? Privacy. I think this is a bit overblown.

• 8:34Scott Galloway?

  What we have is an organization. That has not, in my view, abused privacy the way Google and Facebook have abused privacy. Why? Because they're not in the business of it. They are a little bit in terms of Amazon Media Group, which is a big business, takes data and then serves you an ad for Huggies when you buy Pampers. But is that really a violation of your privacy? Whereas Facebook decides, I know, let's violate your privacy so we can get you addicted and get you depressed. Or maybe we just sell that data or let the platform be weaponized by foreign governments. I mean, they've shown absolutely no concern for your data, delay in obfuscation. I don't think Amazon is guilty of that, at least thus far. The amount of information they have on you, if they wanted, in terms of your movements, what you say in your house is extraordinary. And I do believe that they recognize those risks

• 9:19Scott Galloway?

  and they've put in exponentially more safeguards. And let me think, who else? Meta. Anyways, different talk show. I don't think Amazon is as big a threat around antitrust as it comes to healthcare. We need less antitrust, if you will, in healthcare. We need maybe some of the pharma companies to be broken up. But I love the entrance of Amazon into the healthcare field. I think it's going to be fantastic. Some stats regarding the healthcare industry. In a survey of nearly 18,000 healthcare professionals ranging across 29 different specialties, MedSpace found that the average time spent on medical work outside of patient visits, including administrative work and electronic health record documentation, was roughly 16 hours per week. Think about that. They're wasting 16 hours per week

• 10:03Scott Galloway?

  on the admin, on the bullshit, right? U.S. healthcare spending reached $4 trillion, or $12,500 per person. So a wife and a husband, a husband and a husband, a wife and a wife, $50,000 on healthcare if they have two kids. Think about that. $50,000? That's 20% of our GDP. We spend double what any other Western nation spends for worse outcomes in areas including infant mortality and diabetes. Though that's great with the wealthiest nation in the world and we can't keep our kids alive. There is room, enormous room, for innovation. A report by Rock Health shows it in 2021. Investment in US-based digital health startups reached 29 billion across 729 deals

• 10:46Scott Galloway?

  with an average deal size of around 40 million. That was nearly double from a prior year. This is going to be the starting gun for a bunch of acquisitions and a bunch of investment as people realize that the industrial complex, the evil empire here is the healthcare industry, or what we should be calling the sick care industry. Telehealth Medicare visits increased from approximately 840,000 visits in 2019 to 53 million in 2020. It used to be less than 1%, now it's about a third is done virtually. The area that's registered the greatest growth has been in mental health. When it comes to 2021, a survey that was conducted between April and October found that nearly 1 in 4 adults had reported attending a telehealth appointment via phone or video in the previous four weeks.

• 11:31Scott Galloway?

  Think about that, that's extraordinary. Within the same survey, 20% of people with a child at home said their child had used telehealth services. This is one of the really, this is the silver lining, the size of the cloud coming out of COVID, that finally, the sense of urgency, the investment, the innovation here resulted in a reshaping of the way we think about an interface with healthcare. This is an enormous potential unlock. The Office for Disease Prevention and Health Promotion says that almost 1 in 4 Americans do not have a primary care provider or health center where they can regularly receive medical services. Think of what broader access to telehealth can do to change that. I'm an investor in a company called 98.6, which is text-based preventive healthcare,

• 12:14Scott Galloway?

  and a third of the people that text us, a third of the people that text us do so while they're in a meeting. This could be so hugely disruptive. And then the next step, the most disruptible industry within the most disruptible industry? Insurance. I am looking forward to the day where I walk into my house and it says, "Galloway Family, would you like to cut your health insurance costs in half? If yes, say, "Alexa, tell me more about Amazon Prime Insurance." The insurance industry is the best industry in the world. If you're on the investor's side or the ownership's side, Berkshire Hathaway isn't an investment fund. It's not a hedge fund. It's an insurance company posing as an investment fund. It's the best industry in the world. Forty-five cents on the dollar go to administration and profits,

• 12:58Scott Galloway?

  meaning when you buy insurance, you're getting 55 cents back. By the way, by the way, I haven't had health insurance in five years. Why? Why? Because I can absorb a big one. I am privileged. I am fortunate. And I was spending $50,000 a year on healthcare for my family. Why? Because I'm a narcissist and I want the gold-plated healthcare. And what did I find out? Less than half the time we actually went to the doctor was the insurance company reimbursing for us. What else did I find out? It's a pain in the ass to get reimbursed. Why? Maybe they make it harder so that there's more breakage. I don't want to have to pick certain doctors. I want to pick the doctor that I want to go to. Anyways, quarter of a million dollars will buy a lot of healthcare. And everybody goes, "Oh, my God, you're a bad citizen. You're a bad dad." No, you're not. Insurance is nothing but a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. Why?

• 13:43Scott Galloway?

  Because the poor can't afford a big one. The rich can. And if you are wealthy, insurance makes no fucking sense. I own some rental units down in Florida. If I had a mortgage on them, I have to get flood, fire, and whatever the liability insurance on these things. Why? Because the mortgage business is in bed. What do you know? The banks are in bed with the insurance industry so they can both rip off consumers at the same time. So what have I done? Again, more privilege. I pay cash for these things because I don't want insurance on them. The most disruptable business inside the most disruptable business is healthcare insurance. Amazon has the capital. They have the installed base of smart speakers. They have the AI. They already have data on you. Oh, my God.

• 14:25Scott Galloway?

  My greed glands for a better world are starting to run saliva like there's no fucking tomorrow. Disclosure, I own Amazon stock. Disclosure, I have predicted Amazon is going to be the fastest-growing billion-dollar-plus healthcare industry in the world. Should Amazon be broken up? Yes. Should Amazon be prohibited from competing with retailers and customers on their own platform? Absolutely. Should Amazon be welcomed into the healthcare industry? Yes, my brothers and sisters, come on in.

• 14:59Scott Galloway?

  All right, that's a wrap on our rant for the Business Story of the Week. We'll be right back for our conversation with Matthew Ball.

• 15:10Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Superhuman. The pace of modern work can be relentless. You're getting a constant influx of messages from a ton of different apps. You haven't closed all your browser tabs in a year. Everything seems urgent and staying on top of it all feels like an impossible task. Superhuman Go is an AI chat that's always there when you need it, already aware of what you're doing and doesn't ask you to start from zero. Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly, help you be the best version of yourself at work. It handles the repetitive stuff so you can focus on the work that only you can do. Whether you need to summarize an endless email thread or prep for a meeting that's happening in five minutes, Superhuman Go works inside the tools and sites you already use, your browser, inbox, docs, and your project tools. And its AI chat is available on the side of your browser and it's always ready.

• 15:55Scott Galloway?

  No new tabs, no switching apps, no losing your place. This is AI that works with you, not on top of you, so that you have the time and brain space to solve the problems that matter. Check it out, find out more at superhuman.com.

• 16:12Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Vanta. As AI adoption grows, so does your company's security risks and requirements. New frameworks, audits, and vendors keep piling on, but your team isn't getting any bigger. Most compliance tools promise automation, but you're really stuck doing all the work by hand, chasing screenshots, validating controls, and playing catch-up when audit season comes around again. Vanta works differently. Their regentic trust platform is built to scale with you, not slow you down. With over 1,400 automated tests across 400-plus integrations, Vanta collects evidence and monitors your controls year-round, cutting your audit prep by 82%. Plus, you can access the Vanta agent everywhere you work, whether your team is in Vanta every day or living in tools including Claude or Cursor. Want proof?

• 16:57Scott Galloway?

  Over 16,000 fast-growing companies like Ramp, Rider, and Harvey save time and resources while scaling fast with Vanta. Learn more at vanta.com/profg and get $1,000 off. That's spelled V-A-N-T-A dot com slash profg for $1,000 off.

• 17:29Scott Galloway?

  Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Matthew Ball, author of The Metaverse and How It Will Revolutionize Everything. Matthew, where does this podcast find you?

• 17:39Speaker 03

  This finds me in Los Angeles on the first day of my book tour.

• 17:43Scott Galloway?

  Oh, that's right. And so what is a book tour? I've written a bunch of books. I find a book tour is mostly hauling up to midtown to try and get on TV or be on podcasts, but you're actually doing a tour.

• 17:53Speaker 03

  Not a full tour. It's really just LA as the sole pit stop, but I'm doing one event at the Waldorf, another with Rob McGellany, the creator of Mythic Quest and It's Always Sunny. More just about sharing thinking rather than doing in-person events per se.

• 18:09Scott Galloway?

  Got it. Yeah, I love the Waldorf. I love the rooftop. Anyways, leaning into my privilege. So give us a state of play in quote unquote, the metaverse. Who, who are the big players here? How is this shaping up similarly or in contrast to your expectations about where we would be right now with this thing called the metaverse?

• 18:30Speaker 03

  So the metaverse is a 30-year-old term. Most people know that it starts from Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash in 1992. But the idea is especially as have been encapsulated in science fiction literature, but also some early tests in the gaming space, span at least 60 years, often a century. It's in the last two years that it has gone from an overt strategy inside the boardroom to a public-facing marketing strategy, most notably with Facebook or Meta, as it's called now. Where it sits is a little bit premature. The narrative has so far outstripped the products that are in market, the ways in which the world has changed. It has been so significantly conflated with the crypto craze, with NFTs and profile pictures.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  That people are understandably worried that it doesn't mean anything, worried about who might lead it, and confused as to how it could ever live up to expectations.

• 19:25Scott Galloway?

  In a recent story for Time Magazine, you wrote, "The metaverse should not be thought as an overhaul to the internet, nor something that will replace all mobile models, devices or software. It'll produce new technologies and behaviors." Can you elaborate on what those new technologies and behaviors might be?

• 19:41Speaker 03

  So we can think about this at the underlying technologies, the so-called protocols, as well as the more consumer-facing devices. We don't actually have any consistent standards for the exchange of 3D information. The internet at large today doesn't really support synchronous experiences. That's why we generally struggle just to pull off a video call with two people, even though we're deep into the streaming wars and there's trillions of dollars of value in the tech ecosystem online. So we're talking about some overhauls to how we program in exchange packets on the internet, establishing some new file formats, just like the GIF or the MP4, but for 3D content. But then we're also thinking about the devices we

• 20:25Speaker 03

  will use to experience it. This is where augmented reality and virtual reality headsets emerge, but also perhaps the more nascent fear, or field, rather, of holography, of sensors that can track your body and reproduce them in real time in virtual space.

• 20:40Scott Galloway?

  So let's talk specifically about the company most associated with the metaverse, correctly or incorrectly, Meta. I'll put forward a thesis and you tell me where I have it right or wrong. My sense is of Meta's significant investment in the metaverse so far is a big thud, that the Oculus is not living up to expectations and that this grand vision still remains a vision. And there's very little evidence that they're going to be able to develop a new growth vehicle within the company around the metaverse. I'd be curious, your thoughts on Meta and the metaverse?

• 21:11Speaker 03

  So I would say that Meta really has three different areas that they're spending time on. One is virtual reality headsets. The second is their virtual world platform, Horizon. Think of that like Roblox, Fortnite Creative Mode, or Minecraft. And then you can think of it as other wearables that we haven't yet seen. That last category shows potential. The Verge has called one of their acquisitions Control Labs, potentially the most significant since Instagram, but we've seen no product market fit nor even a product. The Horizon Worlds platform has almost no users and even less content. Those are sort of cute. But then when you're taking a look at virtual reality, look, they've shipped 10 or 15 million

• 21:54Speaker 03

  units, but it's not clear that many people are using it. And the clearest indictment is the timeline. In 2015, Mark Zuckerberg stated that by the end of that decade, we would replace smartphones with wearables. That time has come and went. We know from reporting from Alex Heath at The Verge that they've now delayed the first consumer edition of their augmented reality headsets three times this decade. We may not actually have the first consumer edition of this product until the back half of the 2020s. And so we see a lot of diverse spending, but we don't see much usage. We don't see much investment from developers, and we certainly don't seem close to replacing today's devices.

• 22:36Scott Galloway?

  So it sounds like, I mean, I don't think I'm putting words in your mouth, but Meta and the Metaverse so far have been underwhelming or haven't met expectations. Would that be accurate?

• 22:47Speaker 03

  It would be accurate. I think the strange thing about this would be how changing the name of the company and the extraordinary spending set expectations which were probably not achievable.

• 22:59Scott Galloway?

  Yeah. And who, if you look at a company, well, one, assuming that you're bullish or think there's a future here, what companies are best positioned to add stakeholder value based on an emerging Metaverse? So who would you bet on? Who are we not talking about? Are there companies that we're not, you know, everyone talks about Meta when we talk about the Metaverse. Who should we be talking about?

• 23:23Speaker 03

  So it's an interesting frame because I think you correctly said the company most obviously associated with the Metaverse is Meta. But I think when you narrow in on those in the field, those who are investing or building product, they would say that the company most associated is probably Epic Games, the maker of the Unreal Engine or Fortnite, or Nvidia. Both of those companies were founded in the early 90s, not because of Snow Crash, but specifically for this point in time of 3D simulation. And we are seeing these companies, most people overlooked, really start to mature.

• 23:58Scott Galloway?

  I always thought it helps just trying to find what you're talking about. I think of the metaverse as a three dimensional rendering of the web. It's this immersive experience. And I think, okay, when I play FIFA with my kids or I watch them play Fortnite, that's a metaverse. And it seems to me that the video game industry is in fact the closest thing we have to a profitable sector around the metaverse. Do you think there'll be metaverses around B to B applications, around more around entertainment? In addition to video games, where do you think kind of the next big business is as it relates to this 3D rendering of the web?

• 24:34Speaker 03

  So I agree with everything that you've just said. What I would say is to the extent in which we believe it already exists in consumer leisure, then it already exists in enterprise. A few months before Facebook began talking about the metaverse, Microsoft unveiled their metaverse strategy, focused on the idea of digital twins. This is a virtual, live operated reproduction of a facility. The Hong Kong International Airport operates one today. There are many cities doing it on a limited basis. This is a persistent 3D recreation that you and I, should we walk through the facility, would be instantly recreated in. And that information would be used to operate decisions at the infrastructure layer. Which gate do we move a plane to?

• 25:17Speaker 03

  When do we notify passengers of that shift?

• 25:21Scott Galloway?

  That's interesting. I did know about this and it's a compelling proposition. But what is the use case for having a virtual representation of the Hong Kong airport? It's for modeling or decision making?

• 25:35Speaker 03

  So you should think of it from the preparation stage and then the operation stage. Let me give you an example of the former. There's this incredible example that happened at Tampa's Water Street. This is a multi-billion dollar, decade long, multi-billion dollar development that happened or started in Tampa. And they asked this question of how do we figure out what's the best decision for the neighborhood, the network, the city? And so they built a real-time simulation supported by an 11-foot diameter 3D-printed model with multiple different projection sensors and said, "Let's test what happens. If we have an 11-story versus a 17-story building, how does that affect traffic in the local area? How does it affect emergency services response times?

• 26:20Speaker 03

  What's the difference between a car park having an entrance on the north versus the south side? How does the building affect the light available in the local park as well as the local temperatures?" That's how you can think about using 3D simulation, not the metaverse, but an application to design. In the Hong Kong International Airport, you start to think of it as how can we simulate to better respond to terrorism, fire, flood, et cetera. But then they use it in the real-time experience. And that would say, "We've all had the experience in an airport. Gate 82 is blocked. Where does your plane go?" The classic answer is put it at gate 84 or gate 80. But the 3D simulated answer looks at everyone in the airport, where they are live.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  It looks up the chain, where are other planes? And says, "How does the selection of the terminal impact the density of people in the airport, the likely ability to actually board, and then the cascade into the tarmac and the queue?"

• 27:20Scott Galloway?

  So I immediately go to, "It sounds like a great application for the Defense Department to simulate war games and outcomes there. Is that a possible use case?"

• 27:28Speaker 03

  Yes, and we've actually seen that for years. The UK military in particular has been a primary licensee of the Unreal Engine for war simulations. But more broadly, we can actually take a look at the US Army. They have a $22 billion contract for only 120,000 Microsoft AR HoloLens devices. It spans a decade. And that is for the devices, the repair, custom software, secure storage, all in support of active warfare and training.

• 28:00Scott Galloway?

  And what about even, I'm just going different places here, quantitative trading, where you would say, I'm going to attempt to model out the NASDAQ and movements and I try to predict how traders are going to behave. Is it being used to try and create alpha or make money?

• 28:14Speaker 03

  It's certainly being used for those sorts of purposes. I don't know that your specific example requires what we call graphics-based or 3D computing.

• 28:22Scott Galloway?

  Right.

• 28:23Speaker 03

  But certainly, when you take a look at a company like Planet Labs, Planet does six-by-six-foot scans of the entire Earth every day. They use eight spectra bands, including biomass and heat, across infrared and X-ray, that creates a virtual reproduction of the Earth. That sort of analysis, then applied to 3D simulation, is being used for trading. You can start to take a look at how does the rise of temperature in a specific part of the world likely to affect the composition of the biomass, impacting actual harvest and yield, impacting the distribution and pricing of said product.

• 29:03Scott Galloway?

  It feels like really sophisticated modeling or simulation. I love the way you describe this stuff. It's the first time I've actually thought this was more than just a big head fake with a bunch of legless people. So we've talked about a few companies. We've talked about Meta, sounds like, you know, so far meh, if you will. And then Nvidia, Epic, it sounds like you're bullish on Microsoft is doing interesting things here. I didn't know about this $23 billion Defense Department contract. What about Apple? It always struck me that Apple is the closest thing we have to a metaverse, that it has thousands of metaverses in the form of the App Store, and then they have this incredible portal to the metaverse, which I've always said was the AirPods with the central server, the

• 29:46Scott Galloway?

  iPhone. Is Apple well-positioned around the metaverse?

• 29:49Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Let's start from wearable devices, which we know that they're working on. You can essentially guarantee that at least the first few versions of their device is likely to be the best, most attractive and highest performance AR or VR goggles. They are just the best in the world and their computing power with the M1 and M2 chips are bar none. The other thing that's relevant is when you take a look at any time that is shifting online into virtual spaces is essentially obligated, or at least 70% of it, to the iOS App Store, where they take a 15% to 30% cut. When you take a look at the business today, over a trillion is transacted through an

• 30:33Speaker 03

  iOS platform a year, but only 70 billion applies to their App Store. And that's because they don't bill for Amazon shoes or Starbucks. But if the metaverse means our purchases go to virtual worlds, then all of the growth ends up being billed by them. And for context, Nvidia's Jensen Huang has estimated that the metaverse economy will eventually exceed that of the physical world. Citibank, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, KPMG, McKinsey have all estimated that by the end of the decade, there will be 2.5 to 16 trillion in revenue running through these 3D simulation systems.

• 31:12Scott Galloway?

  So I think I understand that. That means that transactions move from offline, not even to online, but to the metaverse. And is that my avatar goes and buys Nike shoes? What do we mean by commerce or GDP running through the metaverse?

• 31:26Speaker 03

  So you can think about it in a few different ways. Now, Jensen is talking broadly in the way that you would say that the economy runs digitally today. When you and I are farming today, you and I are probably using manual tools. But of course, most yields happen right now through IoT devices connected to the internet.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  And so we don't specifically say that's internet revenue, but it's powering much of the agricultural economy. Jensen's talking about those applications. The other would be to talk about this burgeoning field of virtual items, where you might buy physical Nikes, and Nike made an amazing acquisition of a company called Artifact, that comes with a virtual edition of those sneakers. And for context, Fortnite has generated in excess of 25 billion in revenue purely for virtual goods, no crypto, no NFTs required, in five years. Their annual sales for virtual cosmetics exceeds the revenue of Prada, Gucci, Fenty, and others.

• 32:28Scott Galloway?

  So let's use that as a bridge to talk about NFTs. I've always thought that as more people meet online, that the same way we signal our worth as mates with 1942 tequila, or a Rolex, or a BMW, we're going to start signaling online, which will be bullish for NFTs. One, do you agree with that? And two, who stands to benefit when a younger generation that is comfortable paying for digital or virtual goods comes of age? NFTs have taken a hit, right? The whole space. But are you bullish on the category? And who do you think stands to gain?

• 33:04Speaker 03

  Am I bullish on the category of virtual-only goods and the attendance signaling value? Absolutely. I think when you're talking about NFTs living up to their potential, that has a lot of dependencies that are technical in nature. So for example, just buying an NFT may be interoperable in the sense that anyone can access and use it, but actually bringing that from one environment to another and applying it to an avatar is a really difficult technical problem that has not been solved. And this is where we get into the weirdness of the physical thing versus the digital thing. You can pick up your Nikes and walk into an Adidas, and atoms exist everywhere. They're recognized everywhere. But data doesn't work that way. But if you're saying who's going to win,

• 33:48Speaker 03

  we have seen some version of the intellectual property story we've seen over the past 20 years, but on steroids. The top three seasons for Fortnite, Marvel, Star Wars, and Travis Scott, followed by FIFA and the NFL. When you take a look at who is selling the most virtual product, it's either brand-new brands, or it is the absolute premium Prada and Guccis of the world adapting over. They're the most likely beneficiaries.

• 34:14Scott Galloway?

  We've talked about Apple, Nvidia, Epic, Microsoft. Are there any smaller or medium-sized companies? I mean, it's always a little bit discouraging to think that it's the same old big semi-monopolies that are going to clean up here. Are there any smaller, medium-sized companies that you think warrant our attention?

• 34:33Speaker 03

  So a few different things here. Every time that we go through some sort of new platform shift, you can basically identify five types of companies. The first are those that are destroyed: Blockbuster, Lycos, AltaVista. The second are those that endure but are so far surpassed, nobody cares. Skype still exists, AOL still exists, but even Microsoft doesn't think of Skype when they launch their Teams platform. It's deprecated. The third are the companies that adapt and grow. Facebook is not of the mobile era, but it grew significantly because of it. The fourth category are companies which are displaced in their core business, but grow through the growth in the digital economy.

• 35:14Speaker 03

  Microsoft, displaced in mobile, has never had a smaller share of computing devices, but is far more valuable because it's horizontal in a much larger pie. The fifth category are the new entrants: Google, last time, TikTok, now. The question is, who sorts into which buckets? We don't know the last one, right? No companies are multi-billion. But what's interesting is, and I know you're a student and expert here, when these platform shifts occur, it is impossible to imagine anyone other than the giants succeeding. They have all the resources, all the engineers, all of the users, all of the cash. Microsoft in 1995 and then 1998 unveils the Internet tidal wave memo. They absolutely knew it was coming.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  They sent thousands of engineers on mobile and on browser and on software, but they got it all wrong.

• 36:07Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

• 36:11Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Vanta. As AI adoption grows, so does your company's security risks and requirements. New frameworks, audits, and vendors keep piling on, but your team isn't getting any bigger. Most compliance tools promise automation, but you're really stuck doing all the work by hand, chasing screenshots, validating controls, and playing catch-up when audit season comes around again. Vanta works differently. Their Agentic Trust platform is built to scale with you, not slow you down. With over 1,400 automated tests across 400-plus integrations, Vanta collects evidence and monitors your controls year-round, cutting your audit prep by 82%. Plus, you can access the Vanta agent everywhere you work, whether your team is in Vanta every day or living in tools including Claude or Cursor. Want proof?

• 36:56Scott Galloway?

  Over 16,000 fast-growing companies like Ramp, Ryder, and Harvey save time and resources while scaling fast with Vanta. Learn more at vanta.com/profg and get $1,000 off. That's spelled V-A-N-T-A dot com slash profg for $1,000 off.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends, like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an Ultra. Because it's not just a superior-like beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 37:48Scott Galloway?

  So you are, you have such an interesting background. You served as Global Head of Strategy for Amazon Studios. I'd love to get your thoughts or state of play on the streaming wars, the various players, who you think is ascendant in decline? Do you think it's going to consolidate? Your thoughts?

• 38:05Speaker 03

  I think the most important is to start with Netflix. For 15 years, extraordinary execution. It's essentially remarkable that when we look back from the period of 2005 to 2020, the worst mistake people come up with was Quikster. And Quikster didn't matter. It's a fun case study. It's a fun joke, but it had no consequence.

• 38:27Speaker 03

  But what is remarkable is they are simultaneously proof of first mover advantages, of scale, of network effects, of having the right thesis long before anyone else and betting on it harder than anyone would have imagined. And yet, at the end of the day, while those things matter, they are a content company. They sell entertainment. And the remarkable thing for me is, having competed against them, in 2016, 2018, you would have expected that their expertise in content creation, their hit rate, would be better than it is. If just for the simple reason that since 2016, they've probably spent 50, 60, 70 billion on original content. And you should improve.

• 39:11Speaker 03

  Apple has improved really rapidly. Prime Video has gotten much better. HBO has shown that they can treble their slate with no appreciable difference in quality. And we're starting to feel the gravity of that shortfall.

• 39:25Scott Galloway?

  But who do you think, I mean, I've seen that Hulu has actually gained share in the last 18 of the 24 months. Disney was sort of Rookie of the Year last year. Netflix's stock is way down, but it's still kind of what is the tail that wags the dog here. I know Amazon, it feels like there's, A, do you agree there's too many of them? And B, who do you think is ascendant versus descendant? Like, if they were stocks, who would you go long on? Who would you go short on?

• 39:54Speaker 03

  The most ascendant to me feels like Apple. They certainly have infinite pockets and don't care about the, you know, year to year or half decade returns. But their programming is extraordinary. Their pace of improvement is extraordinary. They have become so desirable to all talent that they're getting better projects than ever before. They got MLS rights, they have baseball rights, there are reports that they're about to get NFL Sunday Ticket. And that's driving a really powerful flywheel for that company. More audiences, more quality, still a low price point, the saturation that you mentioned helps them. When you take a look beyond there, look, there's still the Hulu problem to sort out

• 40:36Speaker 03

  in the United States. It's clear that that's going to come to some sort of head. Disney has to buy out Comcast for nine plus billion by the end of 23. But at the end of the day, are there too many services? For sure. And the easiest way to know that is to know that Paramount Plus as part of a bigger company, or Starz as part of a bigger company, their content could be the same, but the audience would be three to four times bigger. No increase in the cost of production, four X the return, the gravity of that leads to M and A.

• 41:06Scott Galloway?

  And what do you think of the new HBO Discovery platform?

• 41:10Speaker 03

  Look, I'm skeptical that Time will ever consider that deal, the AT&T acquisition, positively. I'm skeptical that AT&T will ever get a positive return on Warner Bros. Discovery. But at the end of the day, that product is going to be successful. It's going to have hundreds of millions of subscribers. Why? Because humans love video. Five and a half billion people watch 2.6 hours per day. 300 million Americans watch five and a half hours per day. And Warner Bros. Discovery has just an extraordinary amount. As long as the price point is anywhere near reasonable, I just don't think most of us can live in a world without subscribing.

• 41:50Scott Galloway?

  And you said you were sort of long or bullish on Apple TV Plus. Do you look at any of the streamers and think they're going to be challenged over the next few years?

• 41:58Speaker 03

  Well, so I think, again, Hulu faces that fundamental challenge of what is its role? We know that Starz is about to be spun out. It's very difficult to imagine how being a standalone public company that is in ninth place domestically, and less access to intellectual property like John Wick and The Hunger Games, which Lionsgate currently owns, is going to thrive. Paramount Global ends up being the interesting case study. Look, they're well performing. Their content is popular. They have exceeded most expectations. The question nevertheless remains, how good is the business? And does it ever show a really compelling ROIC? It's pretty hard to do the math to get there.

• 42:39Scott Galloway?

  Let me throw out a name. I've always thought that Netflix or one of these players would immediately become strategically much more robust with an acquisition of Spotify, which is now trading at an all time low. It's got a market cap of about 20 billion. So say it costs 25 or 30 to take out. If Netflix, if it becomes Netflix-ified, if it's Netflix and Spotify, aren't they the number one subscription media company in the world? It just strikes me, they're ripe for acquisition. Your thoughts?

• 43:08Speaker 03

  So I always talk about this fact that if you take a look at how new access modalities or technologies emerge, you kind of see these three different frames. Number one is the big innovation comes from someone who makes it easier and better to access content. We saw that with cable versus broadcast, streaming versus cable. And at the start, they're dominant because they're much better at the tech. Eventually, the technical advantage commodifies and you shift to content-based competition. But eventually, that saturates. We see this right now. Just making one more high-quality premium TV series doesn't change anyone's trajectory. And so you shift to platforms. Think about this as how Comcast and others started moving to triple or quadruple play bundles, right? Start by saying cable's better

• 43:53Speaker 03

  than broadcast, then you say we've got all these channels, it's peak TV, then you say, actually, we're an ecosystem. That's the arc of all services. We saw that with Apple, right? We're just going to be Apple TV, then we're going to get into original content, then we're going to do the Apple One bundle. That suggests that Netflix's future at some point is more of a platform company. And arguably, we are seeing that now as they go into games, they're going into merchandising, they have a podcast business. The big question is, and I think this is where it's easy to underappreciate Netflix, Spotify reports their membership based on a per-user basis. If you and your partner share a family account, you're not one subscription, you're two subscribers. Netflix does not do that. My guess would be

• 44:38Speaker 03

  that in the years to come, because of password sharing, they change their metric to talk about the number of paying users. And then you're looking at a company that has seven, eight, maybe nine hundred million different users for which folding in a Spotify starts to make sense.

• 44:56Scott Galloway?

  I would describe TikTok as an existential risk. My sense is TikTok is doing to Netflix what Netflix did to Hollywood. What are your thoughts on TikTok?

• 45:05Speaker 03

  I think when you take a look at the American appetite for television, it was never sustainable. For decades, TV had a monopoly on leisure. There was just not many other things that you could do that were multimedia, that had extraordinary volumes, that were live, and that the entire family could enjoy. Every single year for the past twenty-five years, really, leisure globally, no matter where you are, but especially at home, has become more contested. I cannot imagine a world where the average American is watching four-plus hours of TV in twenty thirty. And so TikTok is one of many different competitive substitutes. But certainly, it is obvious that people who used to spend thirty minutes or fifteen minutes watching

• 45:50Speaker 03

  a few blocks of The Office on Netflix, now potentially on Peacock, are using TikTok instead. That marginal, easy, "I'm gonna unwind, I'm gonna put it on in the background" consumption that really fueled thirty percent of TV time is just being devoured by TikTok.

• 46:07Scott Galloway?

  So as we wrap up, we like to get or probe a little bit more about about kind of personal issues and your your approach to work and how your relationships have shaped your professional life. You were a full-time forest firefighter as part of Canada's Ministry of Natural Resources. What lessons can you apply to business or just your personal life that you learned fighting fires?

• 46:30Speaker 03

  So I was a forest firefighter for two years. We would sleep in tents or wet tents in wet sleeping bags and wet clothes for weeks at a time. And I did that because I thought I was gonna spend most of the rest of my life in an office. I'm fortunate that that isn't the case. But the skill that I think I really learned was camaraderie, trust, and really-

• 46:52Speaker 03

  Participating in the culture with those you have very little in common with. And that skill set is really important, especially when you have a shared purpose, least of all one with security concerns or safety concerns.

• 47:04Scott Galloway?

  I've always felt that national service would be a potential solution to the divisiveness that plagues the United States. Of what you said about developing a sense of camaraderie or appreciation for people with different backgrounds, I feel as if we're just so desperate for that, that people begin to look at each other as their allies. It's like, it's the fire is the enemy, not whether the guy or the gal on my left or right is Republican or Democrat. Would you, I've put a lot of words in your mouth here, but I trust you to agree with that.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, look, I don't, I don't know if it's national service, but I do think that there was something remarkable about being young, about not having expectations, being in a very strict hierarchy where you depend on someone who doesn't have any of the traditional skills that you would idolize, right? I grew up in Toronto in a business community. The, my friends of mine's fathers ran a bank. That's what you kind of learn to respect and understand and consider your career objective. Working towards an environmental purpose that can save lives with someone who has none of the traditional skills that you are taught to admire and that has your back is definitely powerful.

• 48:12Scott Galloway?

  So just to wrap up here, we like to do a lightning round, kind of first thing that comes to your mind. Most important relationship in your life or most influential relationship in your life?

• 48:21Speaker 03

  My partner, writing a book, as you know, is extraordinarily tough. It's anxious. I actually find this release right now and the amount of press attention really, really hard. I could not have done it without.

• 48:33Scott Galloway?

  Biggest influence growing up?

• 48:35Speaker 03

  Grandfather. He was an outdoorsman. My family comes from the middle of nowhere, in the middle of nowhere, Ontario. And he provided those skill sets, cutting down a tree, hiking, just meant a lot.

• 48:49Scott Galloway?

  Any job you'd love to do that is totally different from what you're doing now?

• 48:54Speaker 03

  I think legal practice would be a lot of fun.

• 48:56Scott Galloway?

  Legal practice?

• 48:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, look, the Musk situation is a great one. Being on either side of that would just be freaking thrilling. It's the impossible puzzle to solve.

• 49:08Scott Galloway?

  I agree. I agree. Matthew Ball is the managing partner of Appillion Co., which operates an early-stage venture fund as well as corporate and venture advisory. Our Matthew is also a venture partner at Makers Fund, the world's largest gaming venture fund by AUM, advisor to KKR, and a co-founder of Ball Metaverse Research Partners. From 2016 to 2018, he served as a global head of strategy for Amazon Studios. His new book, The Metaverse and How It Will Revolutionize Everything, is out now. He joins us from his book tour in Los Angeles. And most importantly, Matthew fought fires in the great country of Canada for two years. Matthew, we appreciate your time. Good luck with the book.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 50:01Scott Galloway?

  Algebra of Happiness, the last five minutes. Supposedly, people's impression of you is disproportionately dependent upon the last five minutes. What do I mean by that? You can work somewhere for 10 years. And when you're leaving, if the last three months, you're kind of an asshole and start badmouthing people, it almost obviates or diminishes all the good work of the previous nine and three-quarter years. People remember how you leave. People remember the last few minutes, supposedly. And I love this study because it involves a prostate. But when they do colonoscopies on people, if they did a test for the control group, they did it regularly, as they do. As soon as they were done, they pulled a probe out. And in the control group, is it the test group? I guess the test group, excuse me.

• 50:46Scott Galloway?

  They left it in five minutes longer with no activity. So it wasn't as uncomfortable. And the test group where they just left it in five minutes longer. So a longer colonoscopy, but the last five minutes weren't as uncomfortable. People felt, or when surveyed, said that the, the test group, the colonoscopy was much less unpleasant. Now, that doesn't make any sense. It was actually the same colonoscopy, just five minutes longer. But the last five minutes are where you develop your impression, right? That's why universities spend so much money on commencement and bringing your parents. We want everyone's last five minutes at a university to be really positive, such that they continue to buy football tickets and give money back and send, send their other kids and nieces and nephews back to the university.

• 51:29Scott Galloway?

  Anyways, the last five minutes, a basic lesson there. Always try and leave on good terms your job. Always, when you're at a party, make an effort, and this is tough for me. I'm an introvert, to be as charming and as nice and as friendly and as complimentary as possible when you're about to leave the last 10 minutes of the party. Now, the reason I bring this up, the reason I bring this up. I'm taking care of my boys, or I'm watching my boys. We're 11 and 14, we're in New York together. It's me and them, the Color Factory, the Elvis movie at Alamo Drafthouse, which is lovely, which is lovely. Uh, the On Store, On Running Store, the Nike Store for shin guards, the Pelé Store in Midtown to buy soccer cleats, Balthazar for donuts, uh, the Boulangerie Balthazar, Jack's wife Frida.

• 52:14Scott Galloway?

  We've been having an amazing time. And we're going to something called Rise New York City, which is this 3D experience in Times Square, which is literally, sounds like the seventh ring of hell for me. But as you'll recognize when you get older, it's about what the boys want. Anyways, my 11-year-old is really tough. Disagrees with everybody on everything. Seems to be upset all the time about everything. Uh, gives his older brother a hard time. Uh, you know, will just run into his brother's room or in the bathroom and hit him and scream, "nobody likes you," and then run out for no real reason. He is just really tough. And I don't know how to manage it. And I don't think there is a handbook here.

• 52:59Scott Galloway?

  I don't know if I'm supposed to be just loving and supportive and sit down and... Be like Alan Alda would be as a father and say, tell me what you're feeling. I'm not that kind of guy. I'm more, I'm more inclined to scream and curse at my 11 year old. And I'm not proud of that to shock the shit out of him such that it moves him back in line. And I gotta be honest, I think there's some value to that. I think that kids respond to the deeper voice of a man. And that we are there for certain moments of discipline. And I realize as I hear my words coming out of my mouth, I'm, I'm probably going to get some pushback around that, but I think there's a lot of research to show that. The last five minutes though, the last five minutes of every day, of every day that I have

• 53:44Scott Galloway?

  ever spent with my sons is that when they're in bed, and again, getting them to bed is a fucking nightmare, especially the little one. Jesus Christ, brush your teeth. I already did. No, you didn't. Anyways, he's finally in bed. When my two boys are in bed, I hang out with them. I adjust them. I rub their backs and adjust them, which they love. I tell them a quick story about my parents coming to America. It's an ongoing story right now. We're at the point where my parents, my mom, seven months pregnant, loaded up in an Austin mini metro and drove, no joke, from Toronto to San Diego because they had read in the newspaper that San Diego had the nicest weather in North America. I embellish on these stories. They absolutely love them. And then I tell both of them that I love them and I mean it. I look at them and I kiss them.

• 54:28Scott Galloway?

  My 11 year old still kisses me on the lips. My 14 year old will just let me kiss him on the forehead. That's fine. But the last five minutes are the following. Distinct of what an asshole you are, distinct of what a weak father I am, not knowing how to deal with your assholeishness. The last five minutes are me and you. The last five minutes are dad and son. And every time you go to sleep, you're going to have one absolute, you're going to have one thing that is never in doubt. And that is, I adore you. I think you are wonderful. I want to spend time with you and I love you immensely. The last five minutes every day with your kids, that's what they'll remember.

• 55:08Scott Galloway?

  Our producers are Caroline Shager and Drew Burrows. Claire Miller is our associate producer. If you like what you heard, please follow, download and subscribe. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you next week.

• 55:28Scott Galloway?

  Daddy had his coffee. We're gonna give the dog the benefit of the doubt. It's like when my rescue pup, gangster from Puerto Rico, Puerto Rican rescue pup. It's like saying you're a Canadian firefighter. It's sort of sexy. It makes me more likeable that I have a rescue dog. Why am I repeating anything? Because I'm angry. I'm angry and I've lost my train of thoughts. I'm just saying shit over. Maybe we remember it.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Afternoon glare totally ruined my watch party for the big game. That's when my buddy recommended blinds.com.

• 55:59Speaker 04

  With custom window treatments made to fit your style, space and budget, customers who shop at blinds.com experienced overwhelming satisfaction. Side effects may include a fuller, deeper night's sleep and a sudden urge to host the watch party again. Blinds.com isn't a medication, but it can improve how you feel about your home. Visit blinds.com to order your free samples today.

• 56:21Speaker 05

  When you shop pickup at Kroger, you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries selected just for you. Our associates are committed to getting every detail right, carefully handpicking your items, checking for quality and freshness, and packing your order with care. Because bringing you fresh, quality groceries is what we do best. And right now, enjoy $20 off your first online order of $75 or more. Restrictions apply. See site for details. Kroger, fresh for everyone.