Office Hours: Dealing With Mental Health

John MacPhee, the CEO of the JED Foundation, joins Scott to discuss his nonprofit’s work protecting the emotional health of teens and young adults in America. Scott and John also answer listener questions on how entrepreneurs can protect their mental health, and how to deal with imposter syndrome. Follow John on Twitter @JA_MacPhee. Music: https://www.davidcuttermusic.com / @dcuttermusic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Scott Galloway?

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• 0:49Speaker 01

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• 1:26Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to a special episode of the Prop G Pod's Office Hours. This is the part of the show where we typically answer your questions about business, big tech, entrepreneurship, and whatever else is on your mind. But today, we have a special guest to help us answer your questions about mental health and the nonprofit sector. Today, we're welcoming John McPhee, the CEO of the Jet Foundation, a nonprofit working to protect the emotional health of teens and young adults in America. So a bit of a backstory that gives me my favorite thing to do, which is virtue signal. I was really moved or rattled, if you will, by the suicide of Alex Kearns, a young man who thought he was down several hundred thousand dollars based on an errant report from Robinhood,

• 2:10Scott Galloway?

  desperately tried to call customer service three times over a few hours, got no response back, and decided that he had dug himself so far into a hole that the only way out was to kill himself. And it struck me that obviously this is a multi-dimensional problems. One, companies that are run by people who don't bring a certain level of civic responsibility or concern for others. And I'm comfortable saying that about the co-founders of Robinhood, who I think have consistently demonstrated that they are in fact mendacious fucks. But also this draws on mental health issues among teens. When I went back to my high school, I couldn't get over, we used to have a memorial every

• 2:55Scott Galloway?

  week for someone who died in a drunk driving accident. Now the fatality rates are still high, but there's no more deaths of drunkenness. There are airbags, kids have Uber, good education from organizations like Mothers Against Drunk Driving, but we now have deaths of despair, suicide, opiate addiction, eating disorders and the like. And there's a, there's a lot of things at play here, whether it's social media, concierge parenting, but we wanted to bring in John to talk about this. I got involved with the JED Foundation, hosted an event with them, and I was really impressed with John and just really impressed with the work of JED, who was founded by a family who lost, who lost their son. So with that, here's our conversation and a special episode of Office Hours with John

• 3:40Scott Galloway?

  McPhee, the CEO of the JED Foundation. John, where does this podcast find you?

• 3:45Speaker 02

  In New York City.

• 3:47Scott Galloway?

  Nice. Well, look, I wanna, I wanna bust right into it. Can you give us a little bit of the backstory on the JED Foundation and just generally speaking, some trends around why JED's work is so important at this moment?

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Yes. So the JED Foundation is a nonprofit focused on protecting emotional health and preventing suicide for teens and young adults. We were created by a family who lost their 20-year-old to suicide, now 22 years ago. And the reason this is so important and that these years are so important is that in seventy-five percent of cases, mental health symptoms first appear by the age of twenty-four. And in half of cases, they first appear by the age of fourteen. And yet, it takes eight to ten years for an accurate diagnosis to be made. That results in half of young people struggling with mental health issues, getting no care at all right now, none.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  We're essentially forcing children and families to diagnose themselves, which of course is really hard because normal team behavior is difficult to tease out from troubled behavior. And then, actually, if, when we know a young person needs help or their family knows they need help, it's really hard to find affordable, culturally competent care. And so, these are the problems the JED Foundation is addressing. And our strategy to do it is to focus on the real-life systems where most young people are, most teens and young adults, which is high school, college, and universities. And so, we partner with these real-life systems, these schools, to help them look at everything

• 5:25Speaker 02

  they do to support the emotional well-being and mental health of young people. We help them create a plan, because as simple as it sounds, every school should have a written plan for how they're supporting student mental health, and they don't. Right? They don't. We help them set up teams to oversee mental health planning, that includes students, and we look at everything they're doing to develop life skills of students, to promote connectedness, to promote a culture where it's okay not to be okay, and then to notice who's struggling, and then get them into mental health care, and to manage that process, refer them to capable care. And so, the JED Foundation is doing this now in about four hundred and fifty high

• 6:07Speaker 02

  schools and colleges nationwide, working with schools for years, actually, in a deep partnership, so that we can create this culture of caring, this mental health safety net in as many schools as possible.

• 6:20Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, we spend so much time talking about the causes, but we don't spend enough time talking about the organizations like the JED Foundation that are actually attempting to address the issue when it actually manifests. How do you measure outcomes? How do you measure whether or not your efforts are paying off?

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so with the schools we work with, we measure in several ways. We take a look at the number of students that are getting mental health care and how that changes over time. We also look at, actually, the number of students who die by suicide, the number of suicide attempts, the number of mental health hospitalizations. But also, the way the programs and the policies and the systems are changing as we work with schools, right? So, looking at things like, does a school have a 24/7 crisis response system? And if they didn't, now they do. Are they training their faculty and their staff how to notice if a student is struggling? If they weren't, now they are. So it's really multimodal in terms of how we're evaluating the impact. And the impacts are profound.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  We also measure first-year retention and graduation rates, both of which go up among the schools we work with.

• 7:28Scott Galloway?

  And what do you think is the biggest obstacle for organizations like yours in terms of trying to address what is an increasing need? Is it funding? Is it working with good partners? Is it bringing mental health, destigmatizing it? What's getting in the way of more fluid and robust treatment?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Well, at the macro level, at the society level, we have a lot of people that are just in survival mode, right? Because our system is, I would say, cruel to many people who just can't afford care, and to children as well. So, we find a lot of people in very difficult circumstances who have difficulty accessing care. For JED to do its work, the biggest management challenge is around money. We're successful raising money, we've grown a lot. But to do this work nationwide, we just need to continue to grow. And as the management team, you know, we don't have great line of sight

• 8:32Speaker 02

  to what's going to happen with revenue over the coming years. So we're, it's a balance in terms of how we manage growth relative to the need and the high demand versus being, you know, fiscally responsible.

• 8:44Scott Galloway?

  So this is, I want to acknowledge upfront, this might be an impossible, if not a difficult, question to answer. But you said something that really struck me, and that was, it's difficult to distinguish from kind of aberrant yet normal. Teen behavior and behavior that requires some sort of external intervention. And as someone now who's at that age where I have a lot of friends with teenage kids, I mean, they're just batshit crazy. And I say that in an affectionate way. The shit that you see go down in these households, and it's really difficult, if not impossible, for a parent or friends or even themselves to go, okay, this is teens being teens, and this is something that requires real attention.

• 9:28Scott Galloway?

  Are there any, what you would call, best practices for parents and friends out there who can discern when it is time to find someone and intervene?

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Yes. Well, the best advice is to trust your gut.

• 9:43Scott Galloway?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  To trust your gut that if you think something is wrong, to lean into that feeling and to assume you're right and to check in with that young person and to ask if they're okay. But in this ecosystem around the young person who's in distress, their friends often know there's a problem.

• 10:01Scott Galloway?

  Hmm.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Or they have the best, you know, sort of gut feeling that there's a problem. And so what I would say is that, you know, we at the JED Foundation, we tell young people, if you're worried about yourself or worried about a friend, you need to tell a caring adult. And that's the call to action, not just for us, but across the whole mental health field. So actually, it's the uncles and the aunts and the parents of friends that are an incredibly important resource and safety net, because very often, young people that are worried about a friend, they'll tell their own parents, right, about that friend. And we have to make sure that, or, you know, there's just an opportunity to make sure as caring adults that you tell your kids and their friends that you're a safe harbor and somebody they can come to.

• 10:45Scott Galloway?

  Any advice for teens themselves or college students in terms of at what point they should seek help and what is the most immediate, is it counseling online? What are some resources online? My podcast co-host said something really interesting to me, and she said, when we were talking about coming out, she said, Scott, what you fail to realize is sometimes your parents aren't your allies. And that really struck me. And so what do you, what advice, provide the same advice to the individual who might be suffering?

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, first I would say it's it's normal to suffer and it's normal to be under distress. And and we haven't even talked yet, Scott, about the pressures of COVID and social media and, you know, school shootings and war, et cetera, right? There's a lot of macro environmental stress. And so I would say first, it's normal and it's okay to struggle and to know that. And to think it through like you might think through a stomach ache, right? If you have a stomach ache, you're going to let a few days pass and just see if it gets better. But if it's persisting over a couple of weeks and not going away, then the first action is tell a trust, tell friends and tell a trusted adult. And then

• 12:07Speaker 02

  in terms of resource, and you can go to the Jed Foundation, actually, and to jedfoundation.org to learn about how to how to get help. But work with your network of caring adults as the first off. And if you don't have that, I would also pass along that crisis text line is a 24/7 free text service that anyone can use. You text 741741 and you're connected to a counselor. And every young person should know about that service and have it in their phone.

• 12:35Scott Galloway?

  So my colleague Jonathan Haidt has said, and this is not someone who's prone to hyperbole, has said that one of the biggest crises our nation is facing is what he calls this emerging mental health crisis among teens. And my sense is when you have this type of crisis that is so, I don't know, inextricably linked to the to communities and yet so complicated on so many dimensions, that it requires some sort of federal or government support. Do you have any thoughts on the government's role here?

• 13:04Speaker 02

  Yes. The government needs to fund mental health care and the provision of mental health care. We have a huge supply side problem, right? So we've spent time so far talking about recognizing that there's a problem going to help, assuming that you can find the help. There's a very big shortage of behavioral health care providers, and many of them take cash only and don't take insurance. So there's a lot the government can do here. We need what we call network adequacy, which means we need behavioral health care workers in insurance networks. We need parity so that behavioral health care is not more expensive than physical health care.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  And we need the regulations on tele-mental health to be such that you can access tele-mental health across state lines and be able to connect through those new services, which are a silver lining from COVID. Tele-mental health is a real boost for the system.

• 14:05Scott Galloway?

  So when I was trying to explain JED to somebody, the event that we hosted together, John, I remember you'd have these very moving videos of parents who'd lost their kids. And they all basically say the same thing. They all basically say, "We wish we could go back." All of them, "We wish we could go back," right? And it struck me that what JED is doing is you're trying to build a time machine. You're trying to give people the capability to go back and develop these early warning systems such that you don't end up in a terrible place thinking, "If I could only go back." And you're doing that, my understanding is through the infrastructure provided or existing infrastructure provided by schools. Is that the primary infrastructure you're relying on?

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right. And then we're providing the strategic support to them. But whether it's a school or an employer, faith community, if there is an organization that has leadership and members and a culture, policies, programs, then a mental health program can be instituted. And it's really critical that all of our such organizations do this. We focus on high schools and colleges, but this can be done in every workplace as well in the US.

• 15:16Scott Galloway?

  Okay, let's take a quick break. And when we're back, we'll answer a few listener questions.

• 15:24Scott Galloway?

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• 17:31Scott Galloway?

  Welcome back. We're here with John McPhee, the CEO of the Jedd Foundation. Let's go to our first question, question number one.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  Hi Scott, my name is Daniel from Savannah, Georgia. I have a question about young entrepreneurs and I'd love to hear both John's and your response. What do you feel is the number one thing that you see young adults who are entrepreneurs are neglecting to do regarding their overall mental health? Especially after two years of unprecedented pandemic-related stress. Thanks for answering my question and thanks to both of you for everything that you do.

• 18:02Scott Galloway?

  So John, you actually come from the private sector, so you're uniquely qualified to comment on this. What are your thoughts?

• 18:09Speaker 02

  My thoughts and advice to young entrepreneurs who are working so hard to put their ideas, you know, bring their ideas to success is to make sure that they're really taking care of themselves. Taking care of their physical wellbeing, because we know physical health and mental health are directly tied together. So being active, making sure they're getting good sleep, good nutrition, making sure they're connected to other people, right? As we're working so hard and potentially burning out, it's really important for our wellbeing that we maintain our relationships and build new relationships. So to entrepreneurs, I would say make sure you're taking care of yourself

• 18:51Speaker 02

  and really invest in building your network and being with other people as two ways to protect your mental health.

• 18:58Scott Galloway?

  So the only thing I would add to that is that when you're an entrepreneur, you're constantly pitching, selling and spinning. And sometimes things aren't going well. And no matter how things are going, you have to put up those face to investors, employees in the market that things are going, you know, better than they might be. And you need people that you can be totally sober with around how things are going for your own mental health.

• 19:29Scott Galloway?

  Because the times I was most stressed was when I felt I had to present one state of the union to everybody, but deep down, I knew that shit was getting real and awful, and I had no one to talk to about it. And to say, oh, this is awful, and I think it's all crashing down, and I have no idea what to do, and I'm gonna let everybody down, and just no one to talk to about it. So what John says around what I'll call just hygiene, sleep, food, but also have a, you know, a pressure valve, people in the company that you can say, this is what I see going on, what do you see going on, and just share your stressors and concerns, because to just have all of that in isolation, it's just

• 20:14Scott Galloway?

  a lot. It can really weigh on you. Next question.

• 20:18Speaker 04

  Hey Scott and John, this is Dana from Brooklyn, New York. I'm a research consultant for a social impact-driven biotech startup in my early twenties. I was hoping to get your take on imposter syndrome, especially in nonprofit and startup culture. I've noticed in these particular spaces that smart, driven, passionate individuals can rise through the ranks quickly, regardless of their experience level, and you know, that can lead to some serious self doubt or feelings of being unworthy of that position. I was just wondering, how can these individuals try to overcome this feeling and protect their mental health as they succeed at work? And in addition to that, how can leaders not only make sure their employees are well-prepared to take on the new responsibilities, but also provide a safe space to express their mental health concerns? Thanks so much. Looking forward to hearing your answer.

• 21:00Scott Galloway?

  John?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the first thing I would say is it's quite common to have imposter syndrome and to feel like you're not ready, or you haven't earned your place. I was actually recently in a conference with Dr. William A. Smith, who's the department chair of Education, Culture and Society at the University of Utah. He is the researcher that coined racial battle fatigue and has done all the research on that. And he, he was talking about imposter syndrome. He made the case that there's actually a superpower in imposter syndrome. In that, on one end of the spectrum, you have people that are overly confident. They think they have all the answers. And those that struggle with imposter syndrome are people that are intellectually curious.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  They want to make sure they haven't missed anything. They're, they're worried, but they're the ones that actually are going to do more work and, and ask the questions and challenge themselves and, and in the end, perform better.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  And then with regard to leadership and setting a culture around mental health, I mean, it's toned from the top. The leaders and organizations need to let the, the folks that work there know that we all struggle, it's going to happen to all of us, and it's okay to, to not be okay. And it's safe to come forward and to ask for help. And then they need to back that up through their employee assistance program or other offerings they have that so that employees know where to go and how to get help.

• 22:30Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, so I find imposter syndrome fascinating because I suffer from it. And it's been something that is, I don't know if it's haunted or motivated me my whole life, but I always feel to this day that I'm going to be found out. That people are going to discover I'm not very good at what I do. I'm not that good a person, that, that the jig is going to be up at some point. And with everything I've done, all the time, never leaves me. And I, my understanding of imposter syndrome is that it actually was coined in an era where women felt unusual about any success they were obtaining professionally because they had been taught that, that that wasn't what they were supposed to do. What I find helps is keep in mind that there are a lot of smart people around you who

• 23:14Scott Galloway?

  have chosen you for that role, and they're not as stupid as you think. There's a reason you're in that role. Uh, and that, and, and that to recognize what I recognize is that, yeah, I absolutely don't deserve to be in this seat, but I don't deserve to be here any less than anybody else. Uh, but I think it's, I think it's, imposter syndrome is actually kind of a sign of, of a healthy outlook.

• 23:43Scott Galloway?

  That's all for this episode. John MacPhee is the CEO of the Jet Foundation. He also advises several organizations, including the S.J. Levy Fellowship for Future Leaders at City College and the Health Policy and Management Department at the Maliman School of Public Health, as well as Trek Medics, Crisis Text Line, and HIV Hero. He joins us from New York. So I also want to encourage people to, if this resonates with them, and I think it does for most of us, to go to the, is it jetfoundation.org? Where's the website? Is that right? Yes. Jetfoundation.org and help John and his talented colleagues. I've got involved with

• 24:23Scott Galloway?

  the Jet Foundation. This is a well-run, not only doing well, but they are doing, they are doing this right. They are smart. They hold themselves accountable. They allocate the capital correctly. They're trying to leverage existing infrastructure. And we need to build this time machine. We need to go back or give people the opportunity to ensure that they never have to be one of these, you know, these parents thinking they wish they could go back. They're doing outstanding work. And I've committed and have gotten very involved in this organization, not only because it's doing good work, but they just know how to get it done. So please join me in helping build this time machine. Go to

• 25:07Scott Galloway?

  jetfoundation.org. And John, thank you so much for your meaningful and profound work. Thank you so much, Scott.

• 25:18Scott Galloway?

  Our producers are Caroline Shager and Drew Burrows. Claire Miller is our associate producer. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Thursday.

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