Conversation with Andrew Boyd — State of Play: Cyber Warfare and Security

Andrew Boyd, a former CIA officer and distinguished expert in the fields of cyber operations and geopolitics, joins Scott to discuss the current cyber warfare environment. We also learn about Andrew’s background in the public sector and what it takes to be in the field of counterterrorism. Scott opens with his thoughts on how to quit, and Netflix’s opportunity for growth. Algebra of Happiness: lessons on being a Dad. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard? But not the pipeline? That's bull spend. And marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had: impressions.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  Cut the bull spend. See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad networks. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  Energía baja. Falta de concentración? Nebla mental? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders han sido diseñados científicamente para ayudarte a mejorar el balance de hidratación en el cuerpo. Hechos con la mezcla número uno de electrolitos, sin colores ni sabores artificiales. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Signos de dehidratación leve y moderada. Consulta a tu médico si los síntomas persisten.

• 0:59Scott Galloway?

  Episode 284. 284 is the area code belonging to the British Virgin Islands. In 1984, Apple released the first Macintosh personal computer. Word is, parents are worried about people using the new Apple Mixed Reality headset for masturbation. So I talked to my son about it. Told him that he might go blind if he masturbated too much. And he said, Dad, I'm over here. That's good. Go, go, go. I like that one.

• 1:32Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the 284th episode of the Prop G Pod. In today's episode, we speak with Andrew Boyd, the former director of the CIA's Center for Cyber Intelligence. We discuss with Andrew his career in the public sector and the state of play regarding cybersecurity and other cyber warfare. Okay, what's happening? I am in London. It is a balmy...

• 1:53Scott Galloway?

  What is it? It's like 42. What's Celsius again? I forget. Wasn't that something Jimmy Carter and it died, tried and died? It's, I think it's about six degrees out, about 42 degrees. I didn't realize this, but there's also wind. We have a serious wind here in the UK. So it's somehow drizzling and cold and cloudy. And now it's windy. I am thinking about going to a Barcelona game this weekend, just so I can get out of Dodge. If Dodge was London, if you will, but it's, you know, it's nice. I'm staying home with my 13 year old, just me and him. We start the morning by, with real agita and tremendous fight with me trying to get him

• 2:35Scott Galloway?

  out of the bed. He is like me in the sense that he is not a morning person, not a morning person and gets very angry and very rude. The only way I can sort of tempt him out of bed is I make him toast with Nutella. Is that wrong? Breakfast of champions, Nutella. By the way, supposedly the Nutella family is like the third or fourth wealthiest family in Europe and they deserve it. They deserve it. I'm a, I'm a big fan of that. I think that's capitalism at work. And then I load up his backpack because I like to clear out every obstacle for my son, such that he develops no skills of his own, such that he's a total incompetent when he hits adulthood. And I love watching him leave the house because he has this, he looks like, how about a little, how about a little boy with your backpack? It's just hilarious. Makes me happy. And then I go back to sleep for an hour and then

• 3:20Scott Galloway?

  I get up, have a shit ton of coffee, let the dogs out or boot the dogs out. The dogs won't even go outside. It's so cold right now. Anyways, what else is happening this week? The GOP race is down to Donald Trump and Nikki Haley, as Ron DeSantis ended his presidential bid earlier this week. His campaign lasted nearly eight months and he endorsed Trump on his way out, saying, "It's clear to me that a majority of Republican primary voters want to give Donald Trump another chance. We can't go back to the old Republican guard of yesteryear, a repackage form of warmed over corporatism that Nikki Haley represents." Trump congratulated DeSantis on the run and said he would retire the disanctimonious nickname. Well, thanks so much, President Trump.

• 4:03Scott Galloway?

  That's so good of him, isn't it? That one adult man doesn't continue to, to continue to use or weaponize nicknames against his presidential.

• 4:13Scott Galloway?

  Candidates or presidential competition? That's where we are. What a gracious guy. What a guy. Thanks for that. And MAGA supporters are welcoming the Florida governor back into the mix. By the way, the thing that absolutely kind of marked or is the perfect metaphor for the DeSantis campaign was the announcement or his launch event on X or Twitter where it was, one, awkward, B, a total operational clusterfuck, sort of an example of how not to run something, and C, I listened to it and I can't remember anything about Ron DeSantis. I can't remember anything he said. I remember all the ex-guys trying to pretend that this wasn't a total clusterfuck and didn't reflect poorly on the platform.

• 4:57Scott Galloway?

  I remember a couple of things that Elon Musk said, but I don't remember anything that Ron DeSantis said. And that pretty much embodies his entire campaign. He made a, like, well, actually made a few thousand mistakes, but the ones that really stand out are, one, if you want to run for president, you gotta go behind enemy lines. So I think Governor Newsom actually ran the best presidential race. Now, granted, he's running for the presidential nomination in 2028, but he went into enemy territory. And that is he went on Fox into a southern state and debated a Republican governor who he knew Sean Hannity and Fox would be rubbing La Roche Posay moisturizer on the small of his back and constantly attacking Newsom. But that's what voters want.

• 5:40Scott Galloway?

  Voters want to see you get in the ring with someone bigger than you and kind of show your mettle. I think that's why Ambassador Governor Haley has kind of ascended to the top, or at least the number two, if you will, because she performed really well on the debate stage and kind of everything that her competitors threw at her, she was able to kind of clap back. People want to see that you're war-tested. Now, how does that, how does that foot to Donald Trump? It's a fair question, although I think most people would say that he's been Pretty battle tested by almost everybody, including his next battle to DOJ. Supposedly, the case for the most veracity is actually the documents case under the Foreign Espionage Act. And they have him dead to rights, videotape him on recordings, witnesses.

• 6:22Scott Galloway?

  It's just so, he's literally a plaintiff or prosecutor's dream when it comes to the case in Florida around, you know, that whole nuclear secrets thing. Come on, nuclear secrets, nuclear schmee-crets, who cares? What's a few nuclear secrets stored in the laundry room between friends? Anyways, for more thoughts on the current political landscape in the US, you should check out my co-host Kara Swisher's podcast. Did you know she has another podcast other than Pivot? I did not know that. It's called On. Well, that's creativity, on. It sounds like a failed cable company from the 90s. Actually, I think it was a failed cable company from the 90s. Anyways, On On, she speaks to historian Heather Cox Richardson about how he ended up in the age of Donald Trump.

• 7:05Scott Galloway?

  I think there is a big lesson here around DeSantis, especially the way he exited. First off, this guy was built in a factory of lesser candidates to be the ultimate candidate. Harvard, Yale, he's handsome, served his country. He was an amazing athlete, captain of his baseball team. I think that counts for a lot. I played sports growing up. And generally speaking, the captain was picked by his teammates and the coach and is seen as someone who is a natural leader. He is considered a good governor. He won a commanding reelection. I think a lot of people think he got COVID right. So it's no shock that he raised more money than anyone coming out of the gates. What really screwed up was he announced his campaign and then started campaigning.

• 7:50Scott Galloway?

  And unfortunately, through the course of the campaign, he revealed something awful himself. Literally, his highest, his best moment in the campaign was the minute before he announced. There's another key lesson here. And that is, that is how you leave. How you leave is so important for your brand. You can work somewhere for 10 years, establish a great reputation, be a good manager, a good colleague. And if you're an ass and don't handle your departure well. Your entire brand is fucked up. 51% of people's impression of you is based on the last few minutes of their interaction or the last few weeks. So what did this guy do?

• 8:33Scott Galloway?

  Let's go back to his, his final statement here.

• 8:37Speaker 04

  I signed a pledge to support the Republican nominee and I will honor that pledge. He has my endorsement because we can't go back to the old Republican guard of yesteryear, a repackage formed of warmed over corporatism that Nikki Haley represents.

• 8:52Scott Galloway?

  Who is advising this guy? I mean, granted, I'm glad he's gone. I think he might even, I think his career might even be over. How could he have burnished his career and his brand? How could he have taken chicken shit and turned it into chicken salad? Simple. Remember a basic rule. When you're on your way out, resist the temptation to stick up the middle finger. Be painfully, painfully gracious. What could he have said? One, I'd like to thank my amazing family and staff. He did that. Two, go through names of all his political staffers, right? Thank them personally. These people really went out for him. Show that he cares about them. Show that he's a good guy, that he, that he appreciates when people go all in and probably

• 9:37Scott Galloway?

  work 18 hours a day, which I'm sure they did, that he name checks them and says, I really appreciate you. Two, thank his wonderful family. He did that. Also be gracious, something along the lines of Vivek Ramaswamy ran a great campaign. He's going to be a voice in the Republican Party moving forward. Governor Christie, I thought Governor Christie did a fantastic job and he calls it as he sees it and added a lot of, a lot of texture to the campaign. And also Governor Haley, I hope that should she be the nominee, I look forward to working with her and if she isn't, I look forward to working with her and seeing what great things she does for the Republican Party. Instead, he shitposts a fellow Republican governor?

• 10:18Scott Galloway?

  If he had done those things, if he'd been surprisingly gracious, thanking people, leaving on an optimistic note. I think he would have set himself up for 2028. I think everybody, including Democrats, including MSNBC, would have been blown away by how gracious he was. Instead, he just cemented the notion that he is an asshole. That's how people remember you. They know you are in a position to shitpost them. And here's what you do. You zag when they're expecting you to zig. You be gracious. If you are leaving a job, if you are quitting or you have been fired, if they have really treated you poorly, you'll lawyer up. But assuming in 99% of the cases, that's not true. This is what you do. You go out of your way to leave on good terms.

• 11:03Scott Galloway?

  You err on the side of being generous. You hand over clients to the next person. That is what it means to be a grown up. That is what it means to be smart about your future prospects. Don't fuck it up. Okay, what else is going on? Netflix is deepening its investment in live streaming. The firm recently struck a 10-year deal reportedly worth $5 billion with World Wrestling Entertainment.

• 11:28Scott Galloway?

  Didn't see that coming. Beginning in 2025, Netflix will gain exclusive rights to WWE's flagship show Raw, along with all WWE shows outside the US. Bloomberg reported that this agreement represents a more than 30% increase on the current payments for the show, which is currently distributed by NBC Universal. Bloomberg also noted that Raw is WWE's most-watched program, garnering 1.5 million viewers per show. It's not wild how small TV has become. A quarter of a million people listen to this thing. So we're, I don't know, 1/6 as big as wrestling? Hmm, that was kind of a weak flex, wasn't it? Maybe I need to put on one of those things. What are those masks? I like those things. Those things feel dirty. I'd like to have sex in one of those things.

• 12:12Scott Galloway?

  This news also marks yet another kick to the gut for linear cable guys as more and more programs, particularly live sports, shift over to the streamers. Netflix is firing, literally, on all 7 million cylinders. I saw that, I don't know if anyone else saw this. It was an incredible chart showing churn rates. Everyone's kind of hovering between 4% and 8%. And then there's Netflix and the churn is less than 2%, meaning the only people who don't renew Netflix, it's because their credit card expired and they haven't updated it. They have literally made the jump to light speed and are pulling away. And they have the deep pockets and Netflix has adopted the same strategy as Amazon. An incredible service that results in access to cheap capital, specifically their stock gets a greater multiple than its competitive set.

• 12:55Scott Galloway?

  And they take advantage of that and they make massive reinvestments that other folks can't keep up with. Although I will say the Peacock's investment in Premier League football was genius. Hello Einstein of broadcasting. Anyways, Netflix is pulling away with it. What'll be interesting is if they get into news. I think that's kind of the next or the great unknown for them. What's another idea? What's another idea for Netflix? Something that I think is the biggest idea, something that could potentially, it's the only idea I have for how Netflix might double their current market capitalization, which by almost any metric is pretty fully valued. And it's the following. Netflix should start a viable, robust competitor to TikTok. How do they do that?

• 13:40Scott Galloway?

  Short form videos. Well, Scott, isn't Meta doing that with Reels? Isn't YouTube doing that with its Shorts? Is it called Shorts? Anyways, there's other people doing it. Yeah, yeah, but what does Netflix have? House of Cards, the Umbrella Academy, Wednesday. They have the best block of cheese in the world. They spend more on content than any other media company in the world. And if they start slicing that block of cheese more thinly, they're going to be able to sell it more. I'm talking about collections as opposed to Shorts, right? What if I have no interest in the series? I'm not going to sit down and watch kind of a mid-stream episode, but I want to see it in seven or eight minutes. Hello, Net Vibes. By the way, that's my name.

• 14:24Scott Galloway?

  Hashtag registration to Prop G Media, Net Vibes, Net Shorts, whatever you want to call it. They are the only company in a position to not only launch a viable competitor, but a viable competitor that's differentiated based on their IP ownership. They should also partner with a deep-pocketed generative AI company that's looking for partnerships to differentiate as they all begin to bump into each other. Why? Because the white meat, the secret sauce, the ground zero of TikTok is in fact an algorithm that uses artificial intelligence to calibrate in on exactly what you want and what you will love. What is exciting about this? They would wrap it up. The ultimate selection with the most content ever. Netflix got to have it. They need to go 180 and go the other way. What do I mean by that? What's the problem Netflix? What's their Achilles' heel? How do they inoculate themselves against this Achilles' heel?

• 15:09Scott Galloway?

  Their Achilles' heel is the following. Choice. Specifically, too much choice. Supposedly, consumers in America, American households, spend 10 minutes a day deciding what to watch on Netflix. What are the good folks in Los Gatos going to offer with Net Vibes? No choice. Similar to TikTok. That is the primary value proposition of TikTok. It's specialty retail. They tried to do this before, but they didn't really go all in. The technology wasn't there, and I think they were just early. Net Vibes. Net Vibes, a viable TikTok competitor from the good folks in Netflix. They have the culture. They have the differentiation in terms of an unprecedented depth of intellectual property, and they could partner with an unbelievable

• 15:53Scott Galloway?

  technology company that would be dying to do this and spend a great deal of money such that they could say, we're the partner with Netflix. Boom!

• 16:06Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back for our conversation with Andrew Boyd.

• 16:11Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from NetSuite. They say every day your business is late to AI, you might fall two days behind. So how do you keep up with the competition when they're only moving faster? Enter NetSuite next. You probably know NetSuite, the AI-powered business management suite that securely connects all your data. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth, trusted by over 44,000 customers. NetSuite Next is the next big leap in how business gets done, because AI is built into everything you do. It automatically surfaces customer insights throughout your day. AI agents work alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work. And anytime you have questions about anything, you can ask, just like you're having a conversation with a colleague.

• 16:55Scott Galloway?

  NetSuite is customized for a wide range of industries, so it supports the way your business truly works. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, it's time for NetSuite Next, where your business meets AI. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our free business guide, "Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work", at netsuite.com/prog. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/prog. netsuite.com/prog.

• 17:28Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Vanta. As AI adoption grows, so does your company's security risks and requirements. New frameworks, audits, and vendors keep piling on, but your team isn't getting any bigger. Most compliance tools promise automation, but you're really stuck doing all the work by hand, chasing screenshots, validating controls, and playing catch-up when audit season comes around again. Vanta works differently. The Agentic Trust Platform is built to scale with you, not slow you down. With over 1,400 automated tests across 400-plus integrations, Vanta collects evidence and monitors your controls year-round, cutting your audit prep by 82%. Plus, you can access the Vanta Agent everywhere you work, whether your team is in Vanta every day or living in tools including Claude or Cursor. Want proof?

• 18:13Scott Galloway?

  Over 16,000 fast-growing companies like Ramp, Ryder, and Harvey save time and resources while scaling fast with Vanta. Learn more at vanta.com/prog and get $1,000 off. That's spelled V-A-N-T-A dot com slash prop G for $1,000 off.

• 18:35Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Vanta. As AI adoption grows, so does your company's security risks and requirements. New frameworks, audits, and vendors keep piling on, but your team isn't getting any bigger. Most compliance tools promise automation, but you're really stuck doing all the work by hand, chasing screenshots, validating controls, and playing catch-up when audit season comes around again. Vanta works differently. Their Agentic Trust platform is built to scale with you, not slow you down. With over 1,400 automated tests across 400-plus integrations, Vanta collects evidence and monitors your controls year-round, cutting your audit prep by 82%. Plus, you can access the Vanta agent everywhere you work, whether your team is in Vanta every day or living in tools including Claude or Cursor. Want proof?

• 19:20Scott Galloway?

  Over 16,000 fast-growing companies like Ramp, Ryder, and Harvey save time and resources while scaling fast with Vanta. Learn more at vanta.com/profg and get $1,000 off. That's spelled V-A-N-T-A dot com slash profg for $1,000 off.

• 19:52Scott Galloway?

  Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Andrew Boyd, a distinguished expert in the fields of intelligence, cyber operations, cyber threat analysis, and geopolitics. Andy, where does this podcast find you? Arlington, Virginia. That would make sense. Yes. So, let's bust right into it. You've had a pretty robust career, interesting career, from spending a decade as a US State Department Foreign Service Officer at various US embassies in the Middle East to recently retiring from the CIA, where you oversaw operations against foreign cyber threats. And you've also been behind some of major US policy decisions. Can you walk us through your time in the public sector to where you are now? Just how did you get here?

• 20:38Speaker 05

  Well, it's an interesting journey. I started at age 18, believe it or not. When I applied for college, I decided to only apply to two schools, much to my mother's chagrin. The Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy. I ended up attending the Air Force Academy. Did my four years there and then spent five years as an intelligence officer in the Air Force. I fell in love with the overseas environment, so took the Foreign Service exam, joined the Foreign Services, you noted. And spent all of it, learned Arabic, spent all of it in the Arab world. Eventually, you know, migrating over to CIA. And honestly, I thought before 9/11 that I would be doing this sort of for about three, four, five years and then go back to, you know, where I was from, the New York, New Jersey area

• 21:22Speaker 05

  and do something different with my life. But 9/11 happened, that transformed, obviously, you know, much of my generation. But for me personally, just changed the trajectory of my professional life and what I wanted to do. And by the end of September 11th, 2001, I had concluded what I wanted my life's work to be. To work in the national security arena and at least for a major portion of my career in the counterterrorism space.

• 21:46Scott Galloway?

  What do people get right and wrong about the culture and in general, the organization that is the CIA?

• 21:53Speaker 05

  You know, it's funny, when I, when I revealed to my, my oldest daughter that I worked for the CIA, her first question was, A, you carry a gun, and B, have you ever lowered yourself into a hole on a rope, you know, like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible? And the answer on the first one is yes, I've had to carry a gun in certain circumstances. I don't own a gun. It is issued, or was when I was at CIA, it was issued to me when I needed it. And no, I never lowered myself on a rope into a small hole. I mean, I think the movies have to have a certain trajectory, but if you ever had to pull a gun on an assignment in CIA, that was a very bad day. And so at the end of the day, it's, you know, CIA is a lot of very smart people doing some very challenging work, but frankly, they're not any different than any other professional

• 22:38Speaker 05

  in any other discipline who takes their job seriously and wants to be part of an elite institution. It takes a different, you know, sort of person who wants to spend the bulk of their adult life overseas. Potentially in the third world, or the fourth world, or the fifth world, if there is such a thing. And that's, you know, the major difference. But again, it's not like the movies at all, or Homeland, although I, you know, believe it or not, CIA people, we watch Homeland and enjoy it. There are better renditions of what we do in CIA and I could highlight a few of those for you at some point.

• 23:12Scott Galloway?

  Well, give us one or two that you think, when you saw, what piece of work have you seen where you thought somebody there really understands us?

• 23:21Speaker 05

  So Zero Dark Thirty, the movie that came after the Bin Laden operation, you know, the only fictitious part of it, it amalgamates a whole bunch of storylines into one, you know, two hour movie script. But each one of the storylines, you know, for the most part was a pretty accurate. There's some politics associated with it, but thirteen hours, the movie that's associated with the attack on the Benghazi, the consulate in Benghazi and the the death of our ambassador, Chris Stevens. There's aspects of that that are not right, but as far as like what Benghazi looks like, what the compound looks like and what sort of transpired over that thirteen hour period, it's pretty accurate.

• 24:01Scott Galloway?

  So before we bust into a discussion around cybersecurity, what type of person, when you meet a young person, two people, you think this person would thrive at the CIA, this person would not do well, what do those two people look like?

• 24:17Speaker 05

  So in the Director of Operations where I came from, you know, people, a lot of people say you have to be an extrovert, you have to be the kind of person who can rapidly learn foreign languages and be comfortable, comfortable in certain environments. I have not found that to be the case. I found very introverted people to be, you know, quite good at operations. I think the most important attribute for a, you know, a future, future successful operations officer is to be self-aware and to be, you know, not brutally so, but to be self-critical when one has to be and to understand what your skills and your limitations are professionally, that's really what I've always, as a leader in CIA, that's what I really look for.

• 24:59Speaker 05

  I haven't looked for any specific skill set, like this guy is a great Mandarin speaker, this guy is a great Arabic speaker. It's really that self-awareness thing, having, you know, a foundation of skills and intelligence, but really being able to, to operate in ambiguity, in difficult situations and know your limitations.

• 25:19Scott Galloway?

  So give us the state of play around cyber warfare. What are the recent developments? What are the key technologies? What do you see? You know, are the are the big forces shaping cyber warfare?

• 25:31Speaker 05

  I'll go in reverse and we'll get it because I know you you and you've talked about artificial intelligence and what that means going forward, especially in 2024. So I mean, I think AI ML is going to shape where we are in cyber conflict, so to speak, in 2024. But, um, you know, this is a massive debate in the technological community, but also in the policy and strategy community here here in Washington DC. Like, what is cyber warfare and how do we define it? That debate is not resolved. I mean, different countries use their cyber tools for different things. The Chinese use their cyber tools for intelligence collection, primarily in the realm of intellectual property theft

• 26:15Speaker 05

  from healthcare companies all the way to the defense industrial base and essentially trying to leapfrog over the United States technologically by utilizing our research and development. I like to say frequently that, you know, from a cyber perspective, the Chinese are climate change, the Russians are tornado. The Russians really like to use their tools just to disrupt the the current order as we know it, what Western United States led. They've also used their cyber tools for intelligence collection, but also attempting to disrupt critical infrastructure. But they, as we've learned since they invaded Ukraine, those tools aren't what what we thought they would be. And they are, there are quite a few limitations.

• 27:00Speaker 05

  The Iranians, they use their cyber tools in a very different. And, you know, again, this is in a position of advocacy. It's a position of strategic analysis, very effectively in the realm of coercive diplomacy. They took down Albanian computer systems to demonstrate their dissatisfaction with the Albanians hosting the Ljajka Alp, an Iranian opposition group, and demonstrated that you can use your cyber tools to achieve diplomatic ends. And finally, the the North Koreans, they use their cyber tools to make up for the sanctions. They don't have any money because they're sanctioned on almost every front you could imagine. So they use their cyber tools to steal cryptocurrency and then attempt to convert it into fiat currency to fund their weapons programs and whatnot.

• 27:45Speaker 05

  You know, so that that's the state for the nation, nation state actors. I think one of the the biggest non nation state problem we have is ransomware and criminal activity. And back to my point on AI, AI ML. Previously ransomware actors would would send poorly worded emails to to people and it then ask you to click on a on a attachment and then that would infect your computer and they'd either steal intellectual property or try to, you know, coerce, you know, ransom your data or whatnot. But now with AI ML tools, chat GPT, they can actually have chat GPT write those, you know, in in idiomatically correct English and use chat GPT or other AI ML tools to build exploits, even if they don't have any hacker skills.

• 28:30Speaker 05

  So I think 2024 is going to be the year of criminal activity in cyberspace, more so frankly than the nation state actors. And and that's kind of where I see 2024 going from a cyber threat perspective.

• 28:42Scott Galloway?

  I just can't imagine how good it's going to be. And even worse than the con is what happens when you can no longer trust anything?

• 28:50Speaker 05

  I think that's what we're going to see in in 2024. But the great thing is as technology advances in offensive capacity for criminal entities or nation states, so does the defensive capacity. And and I do think we're going to have, you know, plenty of companies and they're already coming above the waterline attempting to come up with defensive software and or, you know, the security services for small businesses, large enterprises to to defend against this. I I also think what's important, you know, there's one thing if the private sector is focused on it, the tools have have to be commercially viable, obviously. But the policy community is actively engaging on this.

• 29:31Speaker 05

  And and there was an executive order and a strategy put out on cybersecurity and and what we do with our US government cyber tools back in the spring of 2023. And then late 2023. An AI executive order went out, which I think it's an extremely technical document for a document coming from the White House. But what it demonstrates is a recognition of not only the promise of this sort of technology, but the threat it could pose, you know, not only to the security of your business or the security of other businesses, but also just the entire way we manage our society up to and including disinformation and as it relates to democracy and all the elections around the world in 2024.

• 30:16Scott Galloway?

  So capacity and competence. Rank, if you will, the various nation states in terms of who does it the best or defends against it the best and how far ahead or behind are they, the other key players?

• 30:29Speaker 05

  In the context of AI ML or just cybersecurity writ large?

• 30:33Scott Galloway?

  Yes.

• 30:35Speaker 05

  So, so I mean, I, I, I think the United States is, is, is head and shoulders above everyone else in, in, in our innovative capacity, our ability to, to capitalize on academia and, and all the work that they're doing, despite, you know, the press indicating otherwise. I think where the PRC has an advantage is just the volume of humans that can throw against this problem set. The cyber, from just purely the government perspective in, in China, I mean, hundreds of thousands of folks are applied to their cyber, their offensive cyber problems. Similarly, they have, you know, a hundred thousand, hundreds of thousands of folks working on the, on the defensive side as, as well. What also the advantage they have is, is they control the internet.

• 31:19Speaker 05

  The governments in, in, in, you know, China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, it's, it's not a, a, you know, the, they make reference to the Great Chinese Firewall. It's sort of a, a mirage in a lot of ways, but they, they, they do control access to, to internet protocol space in those countries. We do not. So that is a massive vulnerability. But if I, if I had to pick one of the two, having the innovative capacity of the United States of America versus having a vulnerable tech, technology sector due to us living in an open society, I think I'd take the former.

• 31:54Scott Galloway?

  This is an elegant segue. You have real domain expertise around the Middle East. I would just love to get your sense of the state of play or what you see is happening in the Middle East and what the media is getting wrong and the role that cybersecurity or AI is playing in the conflict.

• 32:13Speaker 05

  You know, so October 7th, I mean, I think we'll look back historically, you know, a decade from now as being one of the most critical historical moments in the history of the Middle East and obviously specifically Israel. As far as the Middle East itself goes, I mean, I think up until October 6th, the Arab world was in a trajectory slowly but surely of recognizing the state of Israel. I mean, the Saudis were on the cusp of doing that. The Emiratis, you know, were very close to, to, to basically normalizing, you know, fully relationships with, with, with Israel. And I think in part, that is why Hamas made the decision that they did, when they did, because they were going to get left behind.

• 32:56Speaker 05

  And arguably, over the, over the past decade, they've already been left behind. Most of the Arab states have walked away from the Palestinian issue and Hamas didn't like that and put it, you know, on the, on the forefront of everyone's mind. I, I think, you know, there are going to be governments in the Middle East, principally the Netanyahu government, who do not survive this. I think there's going to be a reset in politics. I, I, and I hope for the sake of peace in the future, that it's a government that, that looks at not only defending Israeli territory, but the rights of the Palestinian people. Destroy Hamas, okay, but the rights of the, of the Palestinian people have to be addressed.

• 33:40Speaker 05

  Otherwise, you know, it'll be again, an epoch of Intifada and nonstop conflict. The idea that the Saudi Israeli reproachment is put on ice in perpetuity, I don't think that's true. I think by the end of 2024, beginning of 2025, those discussions will reopen as long as Israel is not in all that war in Gaza still.

• 34:03Scott Galloway?

  It seems as if the kingdom has been oddly quiet. And it strikes me that the two largest economies just have a lot of mutual interests in tying up together. And what I have seen, I've been struck by how quiet some of the Arab nation states have been around this. And that strikes me as that they're planning to hopefully let this cool down and then reengage. Is that, do you think that's a fair thesis?

• 34:33Speaker 05

  I do. I don't have any concrete knowledge as I'm, you know, since I retired at the end of September, I'm not really in those dialogue anymore. But my assessment is that that will be back on the table. There's some certain hubs of fantastic technological innovation around the globe. One of them is in Israel, some outstanding computer scientists, cybersecurity folks. And the Saudis recognize that and they want to partner with the Israelis because of that. Now Saudi Arabia is not perfect. I mean, they are, Mohammed bin Salman has made a lot of progress, has opened up the kingdom to a great degree.

• 35:15Speaker 05

  But there are certain human rights issues that I do think, you know, are worth considering. You know, we can go back to a few years ago on Jamal Khashoggi and what that all meant and the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. So, I mean, it's not as if the kingdom's going to become a progressive, you know, Jeffersonian democracy. I mean, it's just not going to happen. Is it going to be a productive economic partner for Israel, for the United States, for the rest of the Arab world? Absolutely. I think, you know, what has been forgotten in the press to a certain extent is the Saudis have initiated a approach, not a full one, but at least a dialogue with Iran.

• 35:57Speaker 05

  I think that may be one of the most important things to at least nip in the bud the potential for conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran and a cross Persian Gulf conflict. Because that, you know, would actually precipitate a larger conflict that just would be disruptive to the entire region, if not the world.

• 36:19Scott Galloway?

  It's interesting you say that because when I think of kind of realpolitik, wouldn't the US or certain factions of the US government favor, quite frankly, somebody turning Iran's focus away from anti-Western activity? I mean, didn't we lose a buffer and a natural enemy when we kind of took out of Iraq? And that is, we turned Iran into a superpower? Aren't there some factions of the intelligence apparatus in Congress that would like to see tension between the kingdom and Iran?

• 36:49Speaker 05

  I can say, again, this is as a private citizen, but based on my experience, I don't think anyone in the US intelligence community would be wanting that sort of conflict to be perpetuated. I mean, the US intelligence community serves the policymaker and the legislative branch in other ways. If that is the policy of the United States, which it isn't, that may be the case. The invasion of Iraq in 2003 sort of flipped the boat on a whole lot of things. I mean, I couldn't say this until the end of September of 2023. But the fact of the matter is, I wasn't a fan of the invasion of Iraq. It caused an enormous amount of chaos that is going to continue for a generation, at least.

• 37:33Speaker 05

  And to your earlier point, yeah, the government in Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a buffer for the Iranians. And the Iranians subsequently, obviously, moved into Baghdad and for years really controlled the situation because we reduced our presence there. But to your point of actually actively encouraging conflict between the Saudis and the Iranians, I think it's the opposite. I think anything we can do to mitigate or prevent or delay a Shia-Puritan conflict with the Sunni Arabs, I think, is in the interest of everyone.

• 38:12Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

• 38:16Speaker 00

  Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them? That's bull spend and marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  I remember telling my boss, "It'll be good for the brand," when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Energía baja. Falta de concentración? Nebla mental? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero Powders han sido diseñados científicamente para ayudarte a mejorar el balance de hidratación en el cuerpo. Hechos con la mezcla número uno de electrolitos, sin colores ni sabores artificiales. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Signos de dehidratación leve y moderada. Consulta a tu médico si los síndomas persisten.

• 39:16Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Nutraful, the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand used by over 1.5 million people. When you get to the stage of life where you start to notice hair loss, you have a few options. You can shave it all off and enjoy your new look, or you can commit to a new team whose logo you wouldn't mind constantly spotting on a hat, or you can actually restore some of your hair's former glory with Nutraful. Nutraful has formulas built for men at different life stages, such as Nutraful Men for guys aged 18 to 49, or the new Nutraful Men 50 and older. It's the first product of its kind specifically made for men over 50. You can address the key root causes of thinning wherever you are in life. Grow visibly thicker, fuller hair in three to six months. Start Nutraful today and make the hat optional.

• 40:01Scott Galloway?

  Visit nutraful.com and enter promo code PROVGE for $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutraful is the best-selling hair growth supplement brand at nutraful.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com, promo code PROVGE. That's nutraful.com, promo code PROVGE.

• 40:24Scott Galloway?

  So we're doing a bit of a world tour here. We talked about the chaos in the Middle East. Let's, I would imagine, one of the biggest losers from the conflict in the Middle East right now is Zelensky in Ukraine, because it just feels like we've taken our eye off the ball, or people just don't seem to care as much. How would you describe the state of play in the Russia-Ukraine war, and what do you see playing out, given you no longer have access to confidential information, but just as someone who's very good at observing this type of situation and just telling it down to a few points? What are your thoughts on Russia-Ukraine?

• 40:56Speaker 05

  So the risk of it going off the front page, and it has since October 7th, you're correct, and I honestly think the trajectory will continue as, you know, we have our 2024 election cycle. I mean, the main risk of that is that there's not enough momentum on the Hill to continue to fund the president's programs and the aid programs, the military support programs to Ukraine. I really think that's the only real issue. There is certain advantage for the Ukrainians of not being on the front page every day, and that they can, you know, not quietly in Ukraine, because everybody in Ukraine knows what's going on there, but they can continue their quiet offensive against the Russians and, you

• 41:39Speaker 05

  know, attempt to succeed. I don't think, you know, there's a lot of press on the offensive, the Ukrainian counteroffensive stalling. That is a real thing. That seemed to coincide with the October 7th incidents. I don't think that's a permanent condition. I think Ukrainians are innovative. They have applied technology that hasn't really been used, particularly in drone space. I mean, I think ultimately, if we can continue to write the checks as the US government to support the Ukrainians, they're ultimately going to prevail. I think they have to prevail. I think the whole structure of NATO, the whole structure of how we secure Europe, will be upended if they don't succeed. And this idea that we're going to encourage

• 42:21Speaker 05

  Ukrainians to come to the negotiating table with the Russians is frankly an absurd proposition, unless the Ukrainians decide on their own to do so.

• 42:31Scott Galloway?

  And I apologize for skipping around here, but I'll put forward another thesis on another important relationship. The West is struggling with inflation. China is struggling with low growth. We have IP capital. They have unbelievable manufacturing might.

• 42:47Scott Galloway?

  Aren't there just a ton of incentives for a thaw in US-China relations?

• 42:52Speaker 05

  I think there are, and I think in your 2024 predictions, you may have addressed that, that the biggest, I think you, I forget exactly how you said it, but I think you said the biggest tax cut we could have in the United States was a thawing of the relationships between China and the United States. I agree, but, but there are, you know, very particular things that the Chinese do, you know, again, back to my point on intellectual property theft, you know, prepositioning of cyber tools, what, what Microsoft is called Volt Python, essentially the prepositioning of tools and telecommunications networks in Guam and elsewhere. I mean, those are all very, you know, serious issues that we have to address, but there

• 43:34Speaker 05

  is some middle ground where we, we aren't necessarily allies with the PRC, but we're not promoting an adversarial relationship. And I, and I agree with you, there's, there's too much at stake economically, there's too much at stake for me, just a, a well-being of our, our respective societies. And, and the Chinese economy is in, in decline, as you've noted, and I think it's probably in their interest as well.

• 43:58Scott Galloway?

  Make the case for serving in the agency or more generally, public service. You're pitching, a bunch of my students have gone to work for the government and specifically the agency, and make the pitch when you're recruiting talented young people to come to work for the agency or, or our security apparatus.

• 44:16Speaker 05

  So I had a wonderful retirement ceremony at the end of September. Bill Burns, the director, was, posted it and was the keynote speaker, it was an extraordinary event, and then I was allowed to say my, my, my two cents. And, and what I thanked the agency for, and, and by extension, the State Department and the Air Force, you know, the time I spent in the Air Force, was giving me an extraordinary opportunity over the course of three-plus decades. To live multiple lifetimes, really. Um, a day in Baghdad uh was like worth two weeks back here in Washington. I mean, the things that I would experience, the things that I would see, um, just, you know, only an infinitesimally small group of Americans get to get to experience those.

• 45:01Speaker 05

  Are they dangerous? Have I lost friends of mine in situations like that? Yes, but that doesn't negate from the impact that it had on my life. So that was the key messages that I wanted people in the audience to have uh when I retired was was just be thankful for being given the opportunity to to to experience such extraordinary things. What I would say to people like who are in grad school now, and it's a little different where where I teach, because, you know, folks at Hopkins at the School of Advanced International Studies, uh, they all kind of want to go into government. But in in in other programs, maybe even an MBA program like yours and NYU, I'd say, yeah, you can go to a uh be an investment banker right now after you graduate, or you

• 45:45Speaker 05

  can make the decision to do some adventurous thing or things around the the globe, contribute to your government. If for whatever reason, your family situation wouldn't allow you to, you know, travel all over the world like I did, there's plenty of ways to serve the United States government, to serve the American people uh in capacities in Washington and elsewhere uh where you bring your your your talents to to really complicated problem sets. And at the end of it, uh, you know, no matter how long you serve, for me, you know, over three decades, but, you know, two, three, four, five years, you leave very satisfied that you had an impact on people. You weren't getting paid enough, but you can always make money. So I what I would say is, you know, don't don't burn your youth, your twenties and your thirties, making money.

• 46:29Speaker 05

  You you can make money later. Uh, do do something that were were you really, you know, exercise muscles that you wouldn't exercise otherwise and give give back to your country uh and and be in a position of federal service, however you define that.

• 46:43Scott Galloway?

  Andrew Boyd is a distinguished expert in intelligence, cyber operations and geopolitics. He most recently served as the Director of the CIA Center for Cyber Intelligence, where he oversaw operations against foreign cyber threats. Upon retirement from the CIA, Andy held the rank of Senior Intelligence Service V, the most senior rank for career CIA professionals. In addition, Andy has earned a number of recognitions, including the Intelligence Medal of Merit and the Presidential Rank Award. He joins us from his home in Arlington. Andy, when I speak to you, I not only feel better about America, I feel safer. Thank you so much for your service.

• 47:19Speaker 05

  Thank you, Scott, for your time, and I've really enjoyed our conversation.

• 47:32Scott Galloway?

  Out of happiness, just an observation around being a dad. I'm having such a wonderful time. I'm with my 13-year-old, it's just me and him. His mother is in Buenos Aires. I want her life and then going to Patagonia. And my oldest, who is 16, is at boarding school. And so it's just me and my 13-year-old. And just some observations on some of the great stuff that's fun for us. I ask him to kind of be the dad. I say, "All right, can you figure out dinner for us tonight?" I ask him sort of to take care of me. I say, "What should we do tonight? Can you..." And I give him some responsibilities. I'm like, "Can you make sure that we remember to take the dogs for a walk in the morning?" I ask him to be sort of co-parent with me, as opposed to kind of digressing into the

• 48:16Scott Galloway?

  traditional roles where I kind of boss him around and tell him to do stuff. And it's nice, and I think he sorts of enjoys it. And I task him with, "All right, what are we going to do tomorrow night? Or what are we going to do this weekend?" And he uses AI to go and plan like the perfect day, and we end up doing all this crazy touristy shit. But anyways, it's kind of fun. By the way, Madame Tussauds is the seventh ring of hell. Anyway, but there's some fun stuff. I took him to something called Moonwalkers, which he found, which was this kind of IMAX-like experience. A second observation, I just didn't appreciate, until I was a little bit older, how important it is that you spend time with each of your kids alone.

• 48:55Scott Galloway?

  It just, I can't express how different they are when it's just you and the one kid alone. My friend David Carey, I remember it struck me, he always used to talk about, he would take each kid on a trip every year, just the one kid. And I've started doing that, and that as I task them, I say, all right, where are we going? We each, you know, you have to do a trip with dad, just the two of us. I say to each of my sons, and they pick something, and we, it usually involves football. But it's a lot of fun. And also, you know, the difference between 13 and 16 is just so enormous. Apple, I forget what it's called, that kind of slideshow that they put in front of you with the sappy music. Jesus Christ, that shit's effective.

• 49:38Scott Galloway?

  And what I mean by effective is it makes me want to burst out crying. My 16-year-old is, you know, bumping up on six feet tall, and he's, the bottom line, it's just no longer my little boy. And it's really sad. And what it's given me, though, is an appreciation for, I still have kind of a boy at home, and I'm really trying to lean into it. And it's a position of privilege because I have the economic security to spend a lot of time with my kids. But when I was younger, I kind of saw spending time with my kids as a bit of a tax. I was kind of, I was looking for reasons to make plans or do something else, or never have them for that long, because when they're kids, when they're really small, quite frankly, I found they were awful, and just a ton of time and attention. It was mostly like, how do I keep this thing alive and make sure it doesn't get near a body of water?

• 50:23Scott Galloway?

  And as they get older and they get more fun, all I can tell you is kind of four to 14, that is the golden decade, and you really want to lean into it. My oldest is great, I still get a ton of reward hanging out with him. But he's less interested in me, he has his own thing. If you're fortunate enough to have a kid at home that really wants to be into you, and really is into the relationship, oh my God, my brothers, just drink it up. Just seize that moment, because that moment, that moment is fleeting.

• 50:57Scott Galloway?

  This episode was produced by Caroline Shager and Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prof G-Pub from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn, and on Monday with our weekly market show.

• 51:14Speaker 06

  Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

• 51:22Speaker 07

  Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-CONTACTS. Oh my gosh, they're so fast.

• 51:30Speaker 06

  And breathe.

• 51:31Speaker 07

  Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.

• 51:38Speaker 06

  Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-CONTACTS.

• 51:44Speaker 08

  I'm Glenn Washington from Snap Judgment, the storytelling podcast from KQED. Imagine, an iconic piece of paradise overrun by one of the most horrific fires in recent memory. Everyone flees, everyone, except one person who decides to fight the flames alone.

• 52:02Speaker 08

  The moment when nature, institutions, and technology fail at the exact same time. Let's All Systems Down, a new Snap Judgment mini-series from KQED. Tap to listen now.