China Decode: Why China is Sorting Kids into “Genius Camps”

In this episode of China Decode, Alice Han and James Kynge dig into China’s so-called “genius camps” — the small, brutally selective talent pipeline behind many of the country’s biggest tech and AI breakthroughs. Then they turn to rising nuclear tensions after the U. S. accuses China of having conducted a secret nuclear test in 2020, just as the last major U. S.-Russia arms control treaty expires. How credible are the claims, and what does this mean for global nuclear negotiations? Plus, China’s underground club scene is roaring back after years of pandemic closures, as global music crosses borders in new ways — including Bad Bunny topping the charts in China. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:22Alice Han?

  I believe China may be more meritocratic today than America is. Given this system, given the way in which education and scholastic intelligence are lionized, I would say that China today is probably more meritocratic than the US.

• 1:43Alice Han?

  Welcome to China Decode, I'm Alice Han.

• 1:46James Kynge?

  And I'm James Kynge.

• 1:47Alice Han?

  In today's episode of China Decode, we're discussing digging inside China's genius pipeline, Trump accusing China of secret nuclear testing, plus the revival of China's underground club scene and Bad Bunny topping the charts in China. That's all coming up, but first, let's do a quick check-in with how the Chinese markets are starting the week. On Monday, the Shanghai A-share index and the Hang Seng H-share index closed up 1.4% and 1.8% respectively, as investors shipped back to risk-on mode after last week's sell-off. Popmart, the company behind the Labubu, rallied about 6% on news of strong growth expectations and expansion overseas.

• 2:31Alice Han?

  And tech giants Alibaba and Tencent both closed up over 2%. How are you feeling, James? I know it sucks to be sick.

• 2:39James Kynge?

  Kind of getting there. Sorry about this. My voice is not great, but...

• 2:42Alice Han?

  Well, you've still got the voice for radio. All right, let's get right into it. There's been a viral narrative floating around about China running some shadowy, all-powerful genius factory. But the reality is both less conspiratorial and way more interesting. China isn't mass-producing prodigies. It's running a small, brutally selective pipeline that spots extreme talent early and pushes it fast. And a surprising number of the people behind China's biggest tech and AI companies and breakthroughs came through these genius programs. James, you've lived in China for many years. I'm sure you've met people who have been in these genius camps that can tell us a little bit about what it was like on the ground.

• 3:23James Kynge?

  Yeah, I have actually, Alice. I've known some kids who are in these genius camps. You know, this is one of these stories that people who've lived in China know very well and people outside China find really fascinating for very good reasons, I think. You know, this is so different from what people might imagine happens in a country that is governed by a party that calls itself communist, but is in fact anything but egalitarian. This is, as you said, Alice, this is brutally competitive. It is the very antithesis of egalitarianism. What happens in this process is that the authorities skim off the very brightest kids

• 4:05James Kynge?

  and then they put them in a class with other super-bright kids and then they skim that cohort again until, at the end of this process, you end up with a few classes in the very best universities. Full of truly genius level talent. And these genius level talent, as you've said, Alice, they all, well, most of them anyway, go on to lead some of China's extraordinary technological advances. And I think this programme says a lot about what China is all about. It says a lot about what China prioritises, what drives its people, what society's all

• 4:46James Kynge?

  about, and it reveals a crucial motivator of China's extraordinary success. When I lived in Beijing, we had a family friend and she lived in what's called the Hutong area of Beijing. Those are the old alleyways that sort of cluster around the Forbidden City in the centre of Beijing. And families live kind of cheek by jowl. It's not a wealthy area, these were not wealthy people, but the son of our family friend, he was a truly clever boy. And at the age of eleven, he was skimmed off to go into one of these genius classes. And what I remember so particularly is the fact that everybody on his street, I'm talking

• 5:29James Kynge?

  hundreds and hundreds of people, knew this news. And every time he walked down the street to go home and have his tea, you know, dressed up with his little red tie around his neck, he would get applauded and mothers would pop out of their homes and give him a little dumpling or some other little bit of food to eat because everybody in China admires a clever kid. But Alice, what do you think about this system of skimming off clever kids?

• 5:57Alice Han?

  Well, I love the way that you've described that story. And to some extent, I think a lot of Western countries could benefit from that. It seems like we're facing a culture of anti-intellectualism. I don't think that kind of kid would be given a dumpling in, say, America. I personally didn't grow up in China and my cousins, none of them got into these genius classes, but I know friends of friends who did. And what's interesting to me is that it's not just isolated to STEM students. So humanities students can also get into these genius programs. And and the reason why I think this is so interesting is because if you look at the founders of the big tech companies, a vast majority of them came from these genius schools.

• 6:39Alice Han?

  You know, I was just looking at back of the envelope, um, the founder of ByteDance, Zhang Yiming, the the founders and leaders of Taobao and Pinduoduo, China's biggest e-commerce platforms, the founder of Meituan, uh, the Chinese chipmaker Cambracon, its founders also both went to genius schools and engineers behind DeepSeek and Alibaba's Qwen AI models. I read a great think piece over the weekend in the FT where you formerly worked, James, and the author who wrote this piece ends up revealing towards the end of the article that she also went to one of these genius schools. But she describes how even humanities students worked more recently in AI companies like DeepSeek to help with their models

• 7:20Alice Han?

  because a lot of what these models have to deal with is real human intelligence and that's just not isolated to STEM. It goes to humanities and history and literature. But it was fascinating to me doing research on this because I hadn't lived it personally, but I can see how it's having a real impact on generating talents at the top levels of of China's tech companies, of China's corporates. And it's something that I think has really floated under the radar and it's been around for decades. That's the other thing. It's not an overnight thing. It's been around for decades, I believe, since the eighties. So this has been a concerted effort by the government to try to find talented individuals across all of the provinces in China.

• 8:02Alice Han?

  And it reminds me a little bit of the imperial Chinese system, which was very much to try to find these scholar gentlemen in all the different far-flung provinces, bring them back to Beijing. So that they could become basically ministers within the court of the Chinese emperor. But in this case, you know, in the modern day scenario, these highly talented individuals then go out and proliferate and make companies and lead major tech firms. One last thing that I will say is there apparently is a special class known as a Yau class. Andrew Yau is the sole Chinese winner of the Turing Award, which is basically the equivalent of the Nobel Prize in CS. And he, a couple of decades ago, moved from the States back to China, where he originally was from.

• 8:48Alice Han?

  And he's really become the champion intellect and professor of AI in China. So apparently there is a class named after him at Tsinghua called the Yau class, where the chief AI scientist at Tencent was one of his students, the founder of Moonshot, which is produced Kimi, and the founder of Pony AI, as well as a range of these Chinese tech founders. So again, I think this story is so fascinating because it shows both the government having a hand and plucking out these highly talented individuals, but also then these individuals going out from the bottom up and making their own companies, which are really driving China's innovation.

• 9:24James Kynge?

  Yes, absolutely, Alice. You mentioned, I think, that there's about a hundred thousand of these students that are selected every year to go into this genius class streams. And those students sort of find themselves somewhere in the system later on. One of the things that I hadn't realised about this until I read the article in the Financial Times that you mentioned by Zijing Wu, was that if you get selected, you get to skip the Chinese high school exam called Gaokao. And there is no more dreaded a word, I think, in the Chinese language than Gaokao. Because it is this absolute solid year of stress for any student who wants to graduate from high school.

• 10:09James Kynge?

  The competition is so intense that every year you hear about students having nervous breakdowns. You know, families that have kids that are about to do Gaokao are in major, major sort of protective mode. But it's interesting to think. About the dynamics of this because if you get to skip doing the Gaokao, then you can focus more on the subjects that you're interested in. You don't have to do the Gaokao syllabus. So you can just focus on, let's say, if math is your thing or computer science is your thing, you can specialize in that area. And that allows you to make greater progress towards the genius stream and to, you know, come up with the breakthroughs that you've just been mentioning, Alice.

• 10:51Alice Han?

  Yeah.

• 10:51James Kynge?

  The other thing I think is instructive is that we're talking a hundred thousand students that are selected for these genius streams. There are every year nearly thirteen and a half million Chinese students that take Gaokao. So you can already see what a tiny proportion of students are being skimmed to go into these genius streams. That really is a tiny, tiny proportion of the very brightest kids in the country. And the last thing I'd say, Alice, is that, yes, this resonated with me so much, having read quite a lot of Chinese classical literature. The way in which Chinese culture lionizes bright kids,

• 11:33James Kynge?

  especially poor bright kids, is truly amazing. There are so many stories that go back thousands of years, in fact, to, you know, like a particular boy whose parents were so poor, who would read by the moonlight that was reflected off the snow, again, because his family couldn't afford candles. So there is this incredible ancient culture of studying despite adversity and getting ahead, using the education ladder to correct for society's injustices. And somehow to to rise to the top, even despite your fate as belonging to an impoverished family. So there's a real big amount of mythology around all of this stuff

• 12:18James Kynge?

  that makes this such a poignant story for me.

• 12:21Alice Han?

  Mm hmm. I would even hazard a statement, which is that I believe China may be more meritocratic today than America is. Given this system, given the way in which education and scholastic intelligence are lionized.

• 12:38Alice Han?

  I would say that China today is probably more meritocratic than the US. And one last point about the Gaokao, which you rightly mentioned, James, is that it's a system that's predicated on your score during the exam. It's unlike any other, I think, exam in the world, certainly unlike the Australian exam system I went through, or even the American system I went through as well, where in those models, you have a hybridized scoring of your exam scores, your essays, your extracurricular activities. In the Chinese scenario, it really comes down to what score you get on the day of the exams.

• 13:11James Kynge?

  And it's also true, I think, Alice, that every Chinese person knows their Gaokao score and remembers it forevermore. I mean, even 20 years after the event, if you ask them, what was your Gaokao score? They can tell you immediately.

• 13:25Alice Han?

  Yeah, it's emblazoned on their memory, either as a badge or as a scar. Yeah. All right, we'll be back with more after a quick break. Stay with us.

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• 16:56Alice Han?

  Welcome back. Big news on the nuclear front. The US is accusing China of secretly testing a nuclear weapon back in 2020. The accusation comes just as the last remaining US-Russia arms control treaty is expiring. With Trump pushing for a broader deal that would include both China and Russia, the global nuclear landscape is suddenly shifting very, very quickly. James, how credible are these claims that China has been secretly testing nuclear weapons? Apparently, according to the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty Organization, they haven't found or detected any such nuclear weapons tests. But according to the US administration, they've been doing this. So what's your take on it?

• 17:40James Kynge?

  Well, I mean, it's really tough for somebody like me to know. But I would say, I mean, look at the nature of the official that has made this announcement. Thomas DiNano, he is US Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security. He made these assertions at the United Nations Disarmament Conference in Geneva. So the first thing to say is that this is the right person in the US administration to be making these comments, and he made them at a very serious forum. And it was in the nature of an announcement. He said, "I can reveal that the US government is aware that China has conducted nuclear explosive tests,

• 18:22James Kynge?

  including preparing for tests with designated yields in the hundreds of tons." He added that "China's military sought to conceal the testing by obfuscating the nuclear explosions because it recognized that these tests violate test ban commitments." So, you know, the plain truth is that I have no idea. But it does seem to me that we've got a very serious US official saying this and also saying that China has tried to obfuscate it, maybe muffle the shockwaves that come out from a test like this. So to me, it would probably be likely that... Some kind of a test by China has taken place.

• 19:06James Kynge?

  But I also think there's an interesting question here as to whether or not China did anything wrong. Because we need to look carefully at what treaties China has signed up to. It has signed the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, but it has not ratified it. Which means that, you know, it didn't break any of the of the precepts of that treaty because it hasn't ratified that treaty. If you look at the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, which China has signed and ratified. Then that treaty actually does not prohibit tests. It discourages them, but it doesn't prohibit them. So I think there's an interesting question here.

• 19:51James Kynge?

  My guess would be that this US official is speaking from a position of having some evidence. We all know that the US monitors Chinese territory very, very carefully with all kinds of spy satellites that cover probably every inch of the testing area. But the second point is that China hasn't actually done anything wrong according to the treaties that it has signed. At least that's my that's my take on it, Alice. What what are you seeing?

• 20:20Alice Han?

  Yeah, I completely agree with you, James. I think the real issue for the US administration is that they have no leverage against China on this issue. As you rightly point out, China hasn't signed any document that prohibits them from this kind of testing. And certainly there isn't a bilateral agreement like we've had in recent years between Russia and the US that also curtails China from doing these nuclear tests. The timing couldn't be more interesting because obviously on February 6th, we had the expiration of the last major nuclear arms control treaty between the US and Russia. And a lot of, if you go back to the Cold War, the relationship between Moscow and Washington was built around strategic arms controls.

• 21:04Alice Han?

  So the question that is then begged is, you know, we've got two months until the April potential meeting between Trump and Xi. Will both sides make a big deal about this? Certainly, it seems like the Americans are very concerned, but could there be some kind of a framework? I'm a bit skeptical. But this, I think, is going to be one of the, I would say, difficult issues between Beijing and Washington to discuss this year. Add that to the list of other things that China is unhappy about. The Panama Deal, for instance. Also, Japan, which we haven't mentioned, where Takeijin has had a landslide victory that could have massive implications for US-China relations as well. So I see a lot of rocky obstacles to this April meeting.

• 21:49Alice Han?

  I don't think it's going to be smooth sailing between now and when Trump and Xi are supposed to meet in China and Beijing. And one last thing that I'll end on is it's interesting to note that China is still very, very much behind on its nuclear weapons arsenal. Russia has the most, which a lot of people actually don't know. It's got 5,500 nuclear weapons, followed by the US at 5,300, and China only has 600. Now, the Pentagon says they predict that that arsenal will grow beyond 1,000 operational warheads by 2030. But from China's point of view, they want to continue to build its nuclear stoppile because they're quite a bit behind. And if we think about the timeline to a Taiwan showdown, having a nuclear war chest is going to be critical.

• 22:35James Kynge?

  Completely agree, Alice. I think, you know, the idea that China is going to sign up now to a regime which is led by the US and which would restrict China from building new warheads and testing the warheads it needs to test in order to make sure that its nuclear arsenal is operational is for the birds. I really don't think China is in any mood to do that. China is, as we often discuss on here, on course to become the leading superpower. That is its aim. It wants to present an extraordinary level of military prowess so that it can achieve its strategic aims such as eventually take back Taiwan or take back the first island chain.

• 23:18James Kynge?

  This is what Xi Jinping's programme is all about. It's a security first vision for China's place in the world. And therefore, I don't think that the US really has much hope of inveigling China into some kind of a negotiating situation ahead of the April meeting between Trump and Xi. I just don't see that happening. I would say that China would be highly resistant to this type of nuclear arms control in the foreseeable future.

• 23:49Alice Han?

  I would agree with that. And what is different from the Soviet American experience during the Cold War is that China is still a great degree behind the Russians and the Americans. So it has an incentive to massively build up its nuclear arsenal. Whereas if you look back to even as late as the eighties during the time of Reagan and Gorbachev, there was an incentive, given that both were neck and neck in the nuclear stockpiling, for both of them to say, hey, we need to take a step back from the brink and try to limit our nuclear capabilities. China is not in that position. And as you rightly say, James, it has an incentive

• 24:29Alice Han?

  from a strategic standpoint to keep building it because it gives it more coverage and capabilities if there is a Taiwan showdown. So again, I think that this story is another example in which, you know, US and China, beyond the dovish signs that we're seeing between Trump and Xi in recent months, has a lot of thorny and tractable issues that they need to deal with. And it's unclear to my mind that this will actually be dealt with. I think China's strategic priority will be to get Trump to focus on trade, maybe on currency, but really to steer clear from some of these strategic issues like Taiwan, like the nuclear rollout and testing.

• 25:13Alice Han?

  And on that note, I do wonder how Japan fits into this. We haven't talked about it yet, but this week, Takahichi's had a landslide victory in the lower house. I think that's going to have implications for China's policy in the region.

• 25:29James Kynge?

  Well, I mean, I think first of all, that Sanai Takahichi's victory was really quite stunning. And I think it can be seen to some extent at least as powered by China. China's uncompromising stance towards Japan over what Takahichi said about disputed territories between China and Japan has definitely, I think, propelled some of the voters to vote for her. It's created this sense of unity among the Japanese. And of course, Japanese culture and society is famed for its sense of unity. And it seems to me that that is partly what's happened in the very, very strong vote that she has received.

• 26:12James Kynge?

  How that now plays out is another question. I would say this bolsters Takahichi's stance of effectively remaining unmoved by Chinese pressure. But we don't know how deep the Chinese pressure will get. We don't know whether China will deploy all kinds of other economic tools against Japan. And if that was to happen, then the pressure could build to a level at which Takahichi just simply couldn't resist it anymore.

• 26:40Alice Han?

  Yeah, I'm quite worried. Now, if you look at Japan's constitution, they can't become a nuclear power. She would need a super majority in both the lower and the upper house to change that. So it's unlikely that we see a nuclearized power in Japan. But what could be an issue, I think, in the coming year or two is seeing whether or not she issues verbal and even military support to Taiwan. Now, there's speculation that the US is going to do more arms sales to Taiwan this year. If Japan's part of that mix, I worry that there's going to be more diplomatic and coercive pressures in the form of export restrictions from China to both Japan and the US. So I think we shouldn't continue to watch that. That is a real concern to my mind.

• 27:25Alice Han?

  Okay, let's take one last quick break. Stay with us.

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  Hey Spotify listeners. When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admirals Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In-flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi, sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at aa.com.

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• 29:33Alice Han?

  Welcome back. After years of pandemic closures, China's underground club scene is roaring back to life. From Shanghai to Chengdu, DJs, photographers and diehard clubbers are reclaiming the dance floor, reviving the energy and communities that make the nights unforgettable. And it's not happening in a vacuum. At the same time, global music is crossing borders in new ways, whether it's Bad Bunny topping charts in China after his historic Grammy win and Super Bowl halftime show, or International Sounds finding new audiences in China. There's a sense that nightlife culture is reconnecting China to the world again. James, I'm going to ask you straight out. Have you ever been to a Chinese underground club?

• 30:16James Kynge?

  Well, I have, but certainly not in the era of Bad Bunny.

• 30:20Alice Han?

  Oh, that surprises me.

• 30:22James Kynge?

  But yeah, I mean, I have actually. I've been to quite a few Chinese underground music clubs back in the day. They kind of pop up in hidden makeshift venues like abandoned air raid shelters or industrial spaces. Even way back in the 80s, actually, there was a very famous Chinese rock singer called Sui Jian. He's known as the father of Chinese rock. He used to work in the Beijing Philharmonic Orchestra, but then he picked up his electric guitar. He had a kind of Springsteen-esque kind of raspy voice.

• 31:01James Kynge?

  And he used to sing about how people had nothing. I mean, his most famous song was called "Nothing to My Name", and I remember he sang it in Tiananmen Square to the protesting students in 1989. And it's all about a young guy saying to his girlfriend, will you go with me? And she laughs at him because he knows he's got nothing to offer. And then, at the crescendo of the song, he notices that her hands are trembling, and he says to her, could it be that you're telling me that you love me even though I have nothing to my name?

• 31:47James Kynge?

  So that was the first sort of subculture that I remember in China. But it's evolved a lot since then and we're now in the era of Bad Bunny. So Alice, tell us all about Bad Bunny and China and what the scene is like these days.

• 32:01Alice Han?

  Well, James, I'm normally a boomer in terms of my music interests. It's normally jazz and classical music with a bit of alternative rock. But I do have to say that I like Bad Bunny a lot. And I thought his Super Bowl performance, if you haven't seen it, was just an absolute wonder to behold. It was artistically, creatively beautiful to watch. And at a time like this, in the political environment in the US, I think so needed. So I highly recommend watching this afterwards. Um, but fun fact, I was looking this up, that um, Bad Bunny's name in Chinese is Huai Pi Tu, which if you know Chinese, means literally bad naughty bunny. Uh, I think that's actually quite interesting and I've seen more memes in China of Bad Bunny Huai Pi Tu.

• 32:44Alice Han?

  His album has reached number one on the Apple Music chart in China. So it's definitely gaining traction in China at a time where in the last year or two, we've seen a lot of big foreign musicians, whether it's Kanye or Katy Perry, going to China and doing live concerts. I believe Katy Perry recently was there in Hangzhou. I saw a lot of videos of her performing too. Uh, and we talked about it previously, James. I think part of this push is really consumer led. The government really wants to boost the consumption related to music tourism. Uh, according to China Association Performing Arts, for every single yuan spent on concert tickets,

• 33:26Alice Han?

  it generates around five yuan in surrounding consumption for the local city. So that's a five X return. And at a time where China really wants to boost consumption throughout the nation, I think this can be seen as one of the pillars in which it wants to achieve this. But it's been a big reversal because if you recall, really from 2020, I would say to 2024, there was a real slowdown and even clampdown on Chinese music concerts and the underground music scene. I'll give you an example. I see Michael Pettis, who's a well-known uh, China economist and expert quite regularly uh, in China. Um, I remember just after Covid, I think around 2023, seeing him in his Beijing Huotong and he said,

• 34:08Alice Han?

  That unfortunately, the underground scene, which he's really involved in the music scene, has pretty much died. He said prior to that, you know, Beijing was one of the most dynamic underground rock scenes around the world, which is part of why he funds underground rock artists. And he's got his own label, I believe, still in China. So he's a very, very cool bloke. But last year, when I saw him, he was saying that a club that he's involved with has just started up again. And that even though they're not going back to the heydays of Beijing rock, things are starting to improve and come back to life again. But this is a good representation of how we're starting to see this new generation approach music. There's a Chinese expression for these underground raves.

• 34:51Alice Han?

  Effectively, it's called ye di, which means wild dances. And these Chinese youngsters who get involved in this, they are told where these events are very last minute and in cryptic ways. So as not to, you know, attract the attention of local authorities. And they advertise it online to would be listeners and fans. So it's an interesting way in which Chinese youths are trying to go about it, to avoid too much attention from authorities, because remember, drugs are illegal. The Chinese authorities heavily frowned down on profanities and a lot of the culture attendant to underground music scene or rap culture, you know, tattoos, drugs, for instance.

• 35:35Alice Han?

  But we're starting to see things trickle back. And that's been interesting to see in tandem with government support of music tourism and music concerts. There's more talk I've seen recently about trying to create super concerts, kind of like Coachella in China. There's a couple already that are happening. But expanding that so that China becomes a big music festival scene. I would have been surprised if you told me this a couple of years ago, but here we are. All right, James, you know what time it is. It's prediction time. As you peer into your crystal ball, what is your prediction for the week?

• 36:07James Kynge?

  Right, okay, this week I'm looking again at humanoid robots. Last year humanoid robot sales in China are estimated to have totaled about 13,000. So that means 13,000 humanoid robots sold over the entire year. Now, we should remember that last year was the first year of mass production for humanoid robots in China, or for that matter, anywhere else in the world. So my prediction is this year, there will be around 30,000 humanoid robots sold in China. That is obviously a significant increase.

• 36:46James Kynge?

  And then by a year like 2030, that number is going to go up to about 400,000 units. We're headed towards a very sharp trajectory in annual sales increases for humanoid robots. It's going to become a robot nation by 2030, I think. What about you, Alice? What kind of prediction have you got?

• 37:11Alice Han?

  Well, it's related to the Japan story that we've been tracking. I expect China will test out a lot of its export controls with greater frequency and degree on Japan in the coming months. I think Takeiji has been emboldened in her hawkish stance on China. The Chinese don't like it. And in a way, they will use Japan and the sanctions they put on Japan as a warning to Washington. So I could foresee further ramp up in restrictions on some of the critical minerals, some industrial goods and intermediate inputs on the grounds that they're dual-use technologies. And that will be a warning shot, I think, both for other countries in the region, but in particular for the US at a time where we've got that critical April summit that

• 37:54Alice Han?

  could happen between Xi and Trump in China.

• 37:59Alice Han?

  All right, that's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to China Decode. This is a production of Prof G Media. Our producers are David Toledo, Eric Janikas, and Ness Smith-Savodov. Our research associate is Dan Shalan. Our engineer is William Flynn. Our social producer is Jesse Milward. Our technical director is Drew Burrows, and our executive producer is Catherine Dillon. Make sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss an episode, and talk to you again next week.

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