Raging Moderates: Can Democrats Criticize Trump’s Invasion Without Defending Maduro?

Nicolás Maduro is no longer ruling Venezuela -- he’s behind bars in the United States. Trump calls it a law-enforcement win. Democrats say it crossed a dangerous line. Jessica Tarlov is joined by Ben Meiselas of the Meidas Touch (@MeidasTouch) to break down how Democrats can defend the Constitution without sounding like they’re defending a dictator -- and whether Trump is successfully reframing a military operation as justice. Plus: the welfare-fraud scandal that forced Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz to abandon his third-term bid, and the Silicon Valley backlash over a proposed billionaire wealth tax that’s putting Democrats on a collision course with their donors. Follow Jessica Tarlov, @JessicaTarlov. Follow Prof G, @profgalloway. Follow Raging Moderates, @RagingModeratesPod. Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@RagingModerates Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Scott Galloway?

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• 0:48Speaker 01

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• 1:19Speaker 02

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• 1:52Jessica Tarlov?

  Welcome to Raging Moderates. I'm Jessica Tarlov. It's 2026. It's been wild so far. Scott isn't here, but Ben Mycelis, co-founder of the Midas Touch Network, the largest pro-democracy network out there. I'm sure all of you who are listening are subscribers and have certainly consumed his content over the past few years. Know him. Ben, welcome to the show. Happy New Year.

• 2:15Speaker 04

  Great to be here, Jessica.

• 2:16Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah, it's always fun. Like, I love Scott, obviously. But what I'm thinking about, who would be a fun co-host to have when he is out partying for longer than everyone else gets? His vacations are supercharged, like, he takes all of August off. I don't know if you know that about him. But anyway, I thought, I was like, oh, is this the time when Ben and I can hang? And so I'm thrilled that you came to hang.

• 2:40Speaker 04

  Well, you and I have wanted to do this for a very long time, and I really respect and love the work that you do. And Scott will be missed on this episode, but I'm sure he can enjoy his vacation. As I used to say when I was a litigator, you never get in the way of somebody's vacation. So enjoy.

• 2:56Jessica Tarlov?

  No, Scott wouldn't let you get in the way of it, anyway. So thrilled to be doing this. A lot to cover. We're gonna talk about Nicolas Maduro in court. He's here in New York City with me, which is so bizarre. And the Democratic response to what's been going on. The scandal that took down Tim Walz and the backlash over a new billionaire tax proposal in California, where you are not a billionaire yet, but you probably have some views about taxing the rich. Let's dive right in. Like I said, Maduro no longer ruling Venezuela. He's in a holding cell in Brooklyn. He was in a US courtroom on Monday where he pleaded not guilty to narco-terrorism charges and claimed that he was, quote, kidnapped, which, actually, I don't think is completely off-base.

• 3:39Jessica Tarlov?

  The Trump administration says this wasn't a war regime change, but a law enforcement operation. They're just helping out Pam Bondi. Democrats, of course, agree that Maduro is a brutal dictator. You would look like an idiot if you didn't. But they're furious about how this went down. No advance briefing, no authorization from Congress, and now talk from Trump about the US, quote, "running Venezuela." Political risk for Democrats is very clear. Look like you're defending the Constitution without looking like you're defending Maduro or rooting against a clear villain being held accountable. So we've got questions about what's next in Venezuela. Also, what's next at home? What's next for our party? I want to start with kind of your overview of what you think of the operation and kind of the current state of play.

• 4:23Jessica Tarlov?

  Because actually, I haven't heard you yet on it. So give me your fresh take.

• 4:27Speaker 04

  Well, you know, we went live right away as soon as the

• 4:31Jessica Tarlov?

  I'm sorry, I wasn't, I was watching the child. I had no childcare.

• 4:34Speaker 04

  I wasn't.

• 4:35Jessica Tarlov?

  No, I know.

• 4:36Speaker 04

  We put out a lot of content, though, also. But like, but the point that I was, I want to make is that when we went live with it right away, we immediately didn't hesitate in calling it an unlawful invasion. Because I saw the images, I saw what was happening. I saw the Chinook helicopters. And I looked at it and I observed it and said, this is an invasion. And then I said, was there congressional authorization for it? Yes or no? There was not. Does our constitution require that there be congressional authorization? When I see Chinooks and our soldiers in a foreign country? You absolutely require congressional authorization. Therefore, it's an invasion that is unlawful.

• 5:15Speaker 04

  And so I think sometimes in the gamified political landscape of where do I stand on an issue? It gets filtered through a lens of politics versus a lens of basic values and principles. What's the point of having a constitution if it ultimately means nothing? And I think a problem with the Democratic Party or with any political party at that is when you view it in terms of, is this going to help me politically or not politically? People, the general public, see your behaving that way. And I think sometimes they view that as, are you staking out a position that is politically advantageous? Or do you feel a certain way?

• 5:58Speaker 04

  Leaders need to lead, not ultimately come up with a position that they think is going to be palatable. And then you, as a leader, should bring people along on your position. And your position as a leader should be grounded in values and principles. So for me, when I run the network, that's how we cover everything. So the initial values and principles call was exactly Exactly what I said. And then I wanted to ask the question. So who is in charge? What is happening? And are we getting any answers that are satisfactory? And right now, as far as we know, somebody else from the Maduro regime by the name of Delcy Rodriguez, who was his vice president, is running the show. Trump claims that he is running it

• 6:41Speaker 04

  and that he's got a team of people who are basically puppeteering Delcy Rodriguez. Delcy Rodriguez is saying things that indicate both support of Maduro and a resistance to the invasion, but it seems tailored to a domestic audience of kind of virtue signaling while making whatever this deal may have been with the CIA and Trump. But also, if you looked at her swearing in on Monday, she sure looked chummy with the ambassadors of Iran and Russia and they were there at her swearing in and hugging her and she looked happy with them. And I didn't see an American ambassador there. So I then asked, huh, so what's really happening?

• 7:26Speaker 04

  Then we go to Donald Trump's justification, which is oil, that I briefed the oil companies before Congress got authorization. You then have to ask yourself common sense questions about the oil companies who are already right now with the price of oil, struggling to make a pro- I mean, obviously, oil companies are very profitable, but the question for them is their CapEx, their expenditures. Are they going to invest $100 billion in Venezuela? And the answer is no, because it seems that Trump rolled out that the American taxpayers are going to need to subsidize the oil companies in Venezuela. Then we just ask, is this a good thing or a bad thing? And what the heck is going? So that's the framework with which I try to analyze it.

• 8:05Jessica Tarlov?

  I like it. And there are a bunch of things that you brought up that I want to tap on. I'm going first to Delcy's swearing in, though, because I have been, I don't want to say disturbed, but kind of confused by the amount of coverage of. What happened that hasn't looked at the role of China, Russia and Iran in what's going on in Venezuela? And Marco Rubio said it straight out on the Sunday shows, right? He said, like, "Our biggest adversaries are operating in our backyard about 1,200 miles from us. You have China control of Venezuelan mining sites. Iran has drone manufacturing facilities. They use the Russian radar array systems." And I don't know if you've noticed this, but there are a lot of smart people who are not

• 8:50Jessica Tarlov?

  pointing to that. Like, we've been fed a ton of lies, right? We heard that it was about drugs, and that's why they're taking out little drug trafficking boats that are actually taking cocaine to Suriname, not even coming here. That was the one with the lethal double tap strike. Then we hear that it's about oil, but the state of the oil industry there is in complete disrepair, right? It's gonna take, you give $100 billion, I've heard between $60 and $100 billion to rejuvenate it up to a decade to get that to be profitable in any way. And Donald Trump said, "I talked to the oil companies," but Reuters disputed that. They, I guess, spoke to the oil companies themselves and said that they weren't given the heads up. So basically, this was like a go-it-alone mission to a large degree on behalf of the

• 9:33Jessica Tarlov?

  administration, no Congress or even business influence. So what do you make of the fact that people seem to not be emphasizing the impact of Russia, China and Iran on our actions? And does that in some way, I'm not saying making it justifiable, but I can certainly understand why it is not a good thing for those actors to be operating in our hemisphere and this close to us, you know, as a rationale for doing something?

• 10:05Speaker 04

  Right. And if that rationale is expressed rationally...

• 10:10Jessica Tarlov?

  You're asking a lot.

• 10:13Speaker 04

  If the rationale is expressed rationally to the American people and through our elected representatives, with all that data, we decide, you know what? This is a real danger. Russia, China, Iran, operating pretty close in Venezuela.

• 10:31Speaker 04

  Should we go and do an operation? Should we go and do a war with the accurate data? I still vote no on that, and I vote no emphatically. I want to make sure we fix what's going on in the United States before we go have more wars abroad. But at least let's get the accurate information and understand, does this pose an imminent national security threat? Does it not pose an imminent national security threat? And then ultimately, what we did, though, if it was to decapitate a presence of Iran and China and Russia in Venezuela, then my question is, why were those ambassadors there at our swearing in?

• 11:13Jessica Tarlov?

  Looking pretty happy.

• 11:14Speaker 04

  And they seem pretty happy. And what broader geopolitical discussions are taking place when the Russians are in Miami and they're meeting with Whitkoff and Jared Kushner? And right around that time, Donald Trump rejuvenates the conversations about taking over Greenland. I don't think it was a coincidence, the timing of the conver- Yes, Trump's been talking about taking over Greenland for a long time. But this idea, we need a special envoy, the Louisiana governor, was right around when Whitkoff was speaking with the Russians, with Dmitriev and Yusheev and others, you know, in Miami. And are there broader?

• 11:54Speaker 04

  I mean, this is what Rubio has said, that he sees the world as spheres of influence.

• 12:00Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah.

• 12:00Speaker 04

  That he sees the United- He said this-

• 12:02Jessica Tarlov?

  The Don Ro doctrine, as we call it now.

• 12:05Speaker 04

  And they said this back in last January, when Rubio was giving speeches on this. Rubio said spheres of influence, America's not the leader of the world. That's what Rubio said. He said, America controls the West, Russia controls its territory. Rubio didn't say Europe, but the implication was Russia controls Russia and Europe, and China controls Asia. And then the United States, China, and Russia divvy up resources around the world and trade with each other over the resources that they extract. So is there this broader implementation of that vision? Because how does Europe respond to that? You know, how do other sovereign nations respond to that?

• 12:47Jessica Tarlov?

  Well, we're definitely seeing that at play. And the idea of choosing to be a regional superpower when you could be a global superpower seems silly to me. But we are seeing the reaction from European nations. Just this morning, there was a joint European statement in defense of Greenland and Denmark as a NATO ally. And the Danish prime minister spoke out yesterday and basically saying that NATO will end if Donald Trump does this, if he pushes forward and tries to take over Greenland. He's also listed Colombia, Mexico, and Cuba on the list of hotspots, or hotspots as far as he thinks, places to use this same kind of policy where you could say that you were carrying out some sort of law enforcement operation versus doing regime change, calling

• 13:32Jessica Tarlov?

  it just leadership change, which is, you know, what it is. It just happens to be the same leadership. And there's been a lot of coverage of, you know, Venezuelans here in America and at home in Venezuela who are rejoicing to see Maduro gone. But it was particularly interesting to me, the Venezuelans in Florida, for instance, they were asked, I think it was on CNN, you know, are you going to go visit now? Do you want to go home? And they said, no, we can't go home. I mean, Delsi Rodriguez is, they didn't say Maduro in a skirt, but you know, it's the same administration. It's the same military, the same actors. And I found it really interesting, kind of watching the relationship with Maria Machado,

• 14:15Jessica Tarlov?

  the opposition leader who just won the Nobel Prize, which Donald Trump was very jealous of, you know, fracturing. And we didn't know exactly why that had happened. And the Journal, Wall Street Journal in particular, has done really good reporting on this. But over the course of months, basically, the US administration and Rick Rennell in particular, who was the envoy, were in conversations with her about like, what's the plan? Right? So if you are in charge, how are you going to corral all of the key stakeholders? Is the military going to report to you? Key business leaders, politicians? And then apparently she didn't have a good enough answer. So it looked like Delsi Rodriguez was the only option if they wanted to take Maduro out.

• 14:57Speaker 04

  Right, well, isn't that also a failure, though, of American leadership? I mean, I mean, right now, we know that Machado through and Mundo Gonzalez, who was the proxy candidate because she was banned in the July 2024 election.

• 15:10Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  They won the election. By all accounts, they won the election by.

• 15:14Jessica Tarlov?

  A lot, like 77% or something.

• 15:16Speaker 04

  70% of the vote or 65% of the vote. So they clearly have the support of the people, but the chavistas and all of the people who run that government in Venezuela are not giving up the power. It's an authoritarian regime. It's a dictator. Maduro's a bad guy. Delcy Rodriguez is a bad gal. You have that Dio de Soto guy who's the enforcer and the whole regime is also bolstered by paramilitary operations and that we actually see right now on the streets of Venezuela. So to me, the issue, though, is, is Trump and is this American regime, though, are they at least going to set a framework for democracy?

• 15:59Speaker 04

  So, OK, we did this, but will there be an election soon? Or if you look at what the European leaders are saying right now, they're saying we support a transition to democracy and elections and all of these things. And you're not hearing any of that from Donald Trump or Rubio or anybody because they don't want a democracy there. I mean, it seems pretty clear that ultimately what Trump wants is not to have a democratically elected leader of Venezuela, because where you have a democratically elected popular leader, that leader may do deals on fair terms with Europe, which Donald Trump doesn't want to happen. They may do deals with the world that's in the benefit of Venezuela.

• 16:43Speaker 04

  Trump, in his own mind, believes that Delcy is his puppet. Whether she is or isn't will be left to be seen, and he just wants his own proxy there and his own authoritarian. I think that's one of the the bigger problem. What can you say to an exiled leader who had to sneak out of her country? If she goes back, she'll be killed, you know? And what she was doing, though, and I think which made her look even weaker, and we saw her on a news program saying this, is, I'll give you my Nobel Peace Prize back.

• 17:10Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah.

• 17:11Speaker 04

  I'll give you, and it just frankly looked pathetic. And so even if she were to go back, it's like, how could you even be a leader when you're doing that? Like, I've never seen weakness, and there was such a pathetic display.

• 17:23Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah, I was on Monday evening with Hannity. Um, he said, did you at any point offer to give him the Nobel Peace Prize about Trump? And she said, it hasn't happened yet. We want to give it to him, share it with him.

• 17:32Speaker 04

  It's ridiculous.

• 17:34Jessica Tarlov?

  Well, it's a totally ridiculous thing, but we're dealing with a totally ridiculous character. I mean, by all accounts, you could say that this ended up happening when it happened because Donald Trump was pissed off that Maduro was dancing and that Machado hadn't refused the Peace Prize and said, no, you should be giving it to him, even though she gave him a ton of credit for it. And, you know, the way that he debases people, even, you know, world leaders, someone, you know, of her stature who has rightfully earned that Peace Prize, is horrifying to me every time. I won't say that I'm shocked, but that she has to, you know, from a safe house, wherever she is, that she has to grovel,

• 18:14Jessica Tarlov?

  essentially, to be allowed back into her country and maybe to take power or have an election that she could stand in.

• 18:22Speaker 04

  And now, by the way, we see the same Republican Congress members in those districts that represent the Venezuelans and Cubans, Diaz Balar and Salazar and Jimenez, you know, and they held that press conference where they were asked, so I guess you all don't support Machado because you support Trump's plan. And Trump says, and they like screamed at the reporter. It was a fair question for the reporter that, don't you dare put words in my mouth, is what Diaz Balar said. Don't you dare. And then Salazar did the thing which she does with the Dignity Act, which she goes, Donald Trump says he loves the Dignity Act. The Dignity Act is going to make sure that we don't go after an immigration operations, people who are not criminals. Just give it a few more months. He promised

• 19:06Speaker 04

  me in a few more months. And they like asked Donald Trump, so do you support the Dignity Act? And he's like, what's that? I don't even know. What, what, what is that law? I mean, and then Salazar goes up there and she goes, I promise you. She does like the, the whole like emoting, I promise you, he will be so good to us. And I'm like, you, you're just sold out all of your constituents. And, you know, we need to honestly, with shows like this and shows like we do, we need to really break through that propaganda. And just align people's, the politics is a distraction and an obstruction as you and I started this episode talking about from like, is this helping you as a person like, is this ultimately, is this whole conversation is what we did in Venezuela, is this a net plus in your life or

• 19:50Speaker 04

  a net negative in your life? And I think we have to assess it through that lens and ask basic, simple questions.

• 19:56Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah, I mean, there's been some recent polling on this. Is Venezuela a major threat to US security? 13% said yes. Not a lot. 76% say no explanation from the administration on what Trump is doing has been given. And that's a big divergence from how things like this have happened in the past. And I should note, again, it was a leadership change versus a full scale regime change thus far. But administrations in the past, like the Bush administration sold us the war in Iraq. It was based on bad information, but there was a pitch that was made, right? And like, they talked to Americans and they had polling that backed it up. None of that here. And then by a ratio of two to one, Americans oppose Trump's actions in Venezuela and interest in the story has absolutely plummeted. I, you know, we're still fascinated by it, but the

• 20:41Jessica Tarlov?

  average American is, has to get on with it and go to the grocery store and go back to work because break is over, the holidays are done. I wanted to go back to what you were talking about at the top, where you said, my first question is the legality of this. And, you know, that's going to be debated, but in reality, it happened, right? And we know that Donald Trump has no respect for congressional oversight on anything that he does in a foreign policy sphere, or even domestically. And we'll see what the Supreme Court does with the tariffs, but we know he doesn't care. Oversight is not a thing to him. He'll tell a few Republicans about something, you know, if he particularly likes them, but there's no chance that a Democrat is getting within, you know, 50 feet of it. And Dick Durbin and Chuck Grassley issued a joint statement about,

• 21:26Jessica Tarlov?

  you know, how they can't be ignored in these kinds of matters and there needs to be oversight. But he just doesn't give an F, right? About it. And I'm curious, you know, the point about, you have to just stand up for what's right. And that's the case that you have to make and then you have to sell it. To the American people, right, thinking about what democratic leaders should do. And I liked the statements from Governor Polis, for instance, Senator Kane, that all acknowledged how terrible Maduro is and then just said, like, you didn't ask anybody for their opinion on this, or at least show us what you're doing, and also what comes next. And, you know, today is the anniversary of January 6th. And, you know, that's a whole show unto itself, but something that has bothered me,

• 22:09Jessica Tarlov?

  I guess, for the past five years, not just what happened, but the fact that the implications of January 6th and that we have a president who now has been reelected that has absolutely no respect for the rule of law or our constitutional right to vote, completely trampled on it, right? That people basically just said, I don't care about it, right? Like, talking about January 6th is not winning you any elections. Talking about grocery prices and healthcare costs are the way to do that. And so how do you think about kind of putting more of a politics, like trying to win elections, cap on? How do you think about that in context with what's going on now? Because I know my colleagues on The Five will say to me, oh, you know, keep talking about Kilmaro Brago Garcia,

• 22:54Jessica Tarlov?

  keep talking about drug traffickers and the rights that they have when we were blowing up all the boats in the Caribbean. And I did keep talking about them. And it ended up the public opinion did sway on immigration, certainly. And I think Kilmaro Brago Garcia's case was a big part of that. And then what happened in Seacott more generally. Sorry, this is like a 90-minute question, but you get what I'm saying.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  I get what you're saying.

• 23:16Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah.

• 23:16Speaker 04

  But I, I, I think, you know, look, Democrats or people in general can't avoid their core principles to call out injustices where they see it. And whether there's an insurrection, whether there's bullying of marginalized communities, whether there's what you believe to be hate and evil and harm being done on to others, you call it out, whether you believe it's a winning issue or not a winning issue, because I think that's what you do as leaders and what you do as good people. And I don't think, you know, you go, well, It looks like Donald Trump's ads that were attacking the transgender community were effective.

• 23:58Speaker 04

  Maybe I need to, you know, not be supportive of this community or that community. You know, I, I just think you have to be a human being and say, I'm here for you. I care for you. And ultimately, you know, we're going to lead with empathy, with love, with respect. And I don't think those are bad things. I think that the right wing tries to act like, you know, toxic empathy is this horrific source and it's the scourge of Western civilization. But I, I think that still with all of that, we can recognize the existential issues that people face. And it's clear right now as we're in 2026. And frankly, it was clear in 2024, but it was missed by the Democrats.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  But frankly, this was an international situation taking place and but for Trump winning. In Canada, you would have had a right wing Maple MAGA type election. In Australia, you would have had the same thing that happened in the U.S. And you and I can talk about this because I think if you view things through international lenses versus myopic, just what's happening in the U.S. You see waves of these same types of movements happening that we often don't analyze here in the United States. But I think that the key issue, you know, right now, obviously, whether you saw with the election of Mamdani, when you see in this past year Bernie Sanders and AOC drawing

• 25:21Speaker 04

  massive crowds in off-election years in red states, whether they were in Utah or West Virginia, packing huge stadiums. I saw they were drawing crowds of 30,000 people, I mean, far bigger crowds than Trump rallies. You have to then listen to, well, what are the people saying at these rallies? Like, what's the consistent theme that you hear from people who, by the way, cross over as Trump voters to being in AOC? What, what can we learn from this? And the people say over and over again that they feel, to the extent they can get a paycheck, that they are being psychologically tortured, living paycheck to paycheck and having to make a decision.

• 26:05Speaker 04

  Can I afford my healthcare this year? Or am I able to buy my child the pencils that they need for school? Can I afford rent this year? Or am I gonna have to give up on healthcare? And that psychological torture is a feeling that millions, perhaps over hundreds of millions of Americans, wake up with with a sense of dread.

• 26:28Speaker 05

  Right.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  Now, in that dread, in that confusion, and then you layer on top of it, this mass information environment, where there's so much information out there, that there's so much bad information out there. Someone with this feeling of dread and panic is looking for an answer. There are easy answers that are often given to them by Trumps and Magas, which is, the immigrants did this to you. They did this to you. And we're gonna get rid of them, and then everything's gonna be great. But we know that, and people I think are seeing, wow, you sold me on this, but now I'm still not great. And I also don't like what I'm seeing with people being, you know, seized and kidnapped.

• 27:13Speaker 04

  The same way we kidnap a Maduro. People are being kidnapped from restaurants and farms. And they're being, you know, by people who are dressed up in military gear. I don't like that in my community. That's not what I thought. These aren't criminals. You know, so I'll answer your 90 minute question with a 90 minute answer, which is, we could do all of the above. And, you know, I think sometimes the problem in a media environment, whether it's on a network like CNN or Fox or whatever, is, you know, it's it's two minutes. There's a lot of back and forth. And are people fully left informed about, what's going on in my life? I just heard a debate, and and this person was good, and that person had counterpoints. I just think we have to let people know, like, this is what we do on Midas all the time. Like, I'm listening to you.

• 27:58Speaker 04

  I hear you. Let me know what you're going through. And how can we try to just find solutions to these problems? And, you know, I know I got a little bit philosophical there. But like, I think that that is a framework, actually, that defeats the easy answer. When you just let people know, like, we care about you, and we're listening to you, and this isn't gonna be easy. But we're gonna work together. We're gonna get this done.

• 28:20Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah, I like that also because it doesn't have any specific ideology. Like, there are people from across the spectrum that satisfy that thirst that people have to be seen and to be heard. Because, you know, you mentioned AOC and Bernie Sanders and Mom Donnie, but Mikey Sherrill and Abigail Spanberger were also talking that same way to people, right? And talking about costs and that they had a plan to fix it. So I think that was a great 90-minute answer to my 90-minute question. We're going to take a quick break. Stay with us.

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• 29:59Scott Galloway?

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• 30:44Scott Galloway?

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• 31:05Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Vanta. As AI adoption grows, so does your company's security risks and requirements. New frameworks, audits and vendors keep piling on, but your team isn't getting any bigger. Most compliance tools promise automation, but you're really stuck doing all the work by hand, chasing screenshots, validating controls and playing catch-up when audit season comes around again. Vanta works differently. The regentech trust platform is built to scale with you, not slow you down. With over 1,400 automated tests across 400-plus integrations, Vanta collects evidence and monitors your controls year-round, cutting your audit prep by 82%. Plus, you can access the Vanta agent everywhere you work, whether your team is in Vanta every day or living in tools including Claude or Cursor. Want proof?

• 31:50Scott Galloway?

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• 32:14Jessica Tarlov?

  All right, welcome back. There's a big political shakeup out of Minnesota. Just announced yesterday that Governor Tim Walz says he's dropping his bid for a historic third term as a massive welfare fraud scandal continues to escalate. Walz insists he's not accused of wrongdoing. He doesn't just insist that he is not accused of wrongdoing, but the fallout from federal indictments to a viral conservative video to an upcoming House Oversight hearing has turned a state-level investigation into a national flashpoint. So what actually happened here? What responsibility does leadership bear? And how does this reshape Minnesota politics heading into the midterms? Ben, were you surprised that Walz announced he wasn't going to run?

• 32:51Speaker 04

  Nothing surprises me anymore when I wake up. Nothing surprises me. You know, it seemed to be with all of the data points, and we'll see if Klobuchar steps into the race, which is expected, or we'll see what happens next. But like, you know, it seemed for him and where he was at, just running for another term, he's the kind of guy who would step out in the right time if he thought that he was now becoming a distraction, you know, to the party. And I think his statement was great, where he said, "Look, I think that the way this has been characterized is false and unfair and not accurate. And a real serious situation fraud, which we care about prosecuting and we're going

• 33:36Speaker 04

  after, has been, you know, weaponized in a way to attack an entire immigrant population versus the individuals who are engaged in it." By the way, the ringleader was a white lady, you know, and most of the prosecutions happened under the Biden administration, and there were convictions in 2025 of that lady, you know, and more cases that are still, you know, that are still coming. But he said, "To the extent I'm a distraction and I'm holding down the ticket, you know, I don't want to be a distraction, you know, anymore." You know, and also, I mean, I think, I don't know how much this played into it, but, you know, the assassination of Melissa Hortman and Trump continuing to defame the children

• 34:18Speaker 04

  now, basically, by saying that, or defaming Walz, but the whole situation and saying that Walz ordered the assassination, you know, he was posting videos saying Walz was involved in the assassination.

• 34:28Jessica Tarlov?

  I couldn't even follow. I try to understand most of the conspiracy theories, just because I, you know, they come up, right? But that one, I could not even figure out.

• 34:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, I guess the theory, conspiracy theory is that she was, you know, trying to introduce legislation to stop the fraud and she was going to identify it. And so the hit was announced on her in order because Walls wanted to cover up the wrong, I mean, that's the deranged conspiracy where Hortonman's children said, can you please, like, it's hard enough for us that our mom and her dad were murdered by a guy who was actually a MAGA leaning guy.

• 35:05Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 04

  Can you stop defaming us with our parents being killed? But I just think all of that, you know, was, was a lot for Governor Walls to handle. And, you know, ultimately, I think it puts the Democrats there in a good position. But I think there's a lot of lessons that should be learned. Again, just about how powerful this right wing information or disinformation machine is. I mean, what's interesting is if you look at that Nick Shirley video, the one that went viral.

• 35:34Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah.

• 35:34Speaker 04

  On YouTube, I don't know what it's, what it's at now, but when it hit about 160 million views on X, I looked on YouTube at that time and it did about 1.7 million views. And I just found it interesting. It's still a lot of views on YouTube, don't get me wrong, but it was being covered everywhere.

• 35:53Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah.

• 35:53Speaker 04

  As though it was the, you know, the Super Bowl of news stories. So what was interesting to me is to see 160 million views, which are really impressions on Twitter, 1.8 million views. And I just found it interesting because I go back to the videos I did yesterday on the Midas Touch YouTube channel. And in the first three morning videos I did, each of those videos got 1 million to 2 million views on three in a row morning videos. And his after four days did 2 million. But the attention that was given.

• 36:30Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  To his, because on Twitter Elon Musk reposted, JD Vance reposted, and then it gets automatically.

• 36:37Jessica Tarlov?

  The algorithm there is, it likes what it likes, or it likes what its masters like. And, you know, they're talking about, you know, that he's Pulitzer deserving. And, you know, we talked about it on the Five and. I said, I know there's been back and forth about that particular daycare center that he was at and, you know, why would a daycare center also be letting someone in, a man with a camera, to go look at children? It seemed like a violation of the rules of a daycare center, but there was no question, of course, that there was fraud in the system, Feeding Our Future, the organization that you're talking about, where the woman in charge of it, not Somali, a white woman, you know, and rightfully convicted for her crimes there.

• 37:19Jessica Tarlov?

  But I did feel, as the story kind of unfolded, that Walz was in a terrible spot and that at a certain point, you just, like, the buck stops with you, even if he wasn't involved in the fraud directly, which the right is alleging, but there seems to be no proof of that. And Tim Walz doesn't, I don't know him personally, but he does not seem like a guy who would be cool with fraud and just would turn a blind eye to something like that, especially where he's so prideful about how well-run Minnesota is as a state. I think it's sixth best in the country for business.

• 37:53Speaker 04

  But think about this, Jessica, too, before we lose this thread. The PPP program that Trump rolled out with very little safeguards, whatever the number is of missing funds, 500 billion to 2 trillion, you know, there's all different numbers.

• 38:08Jessica Tarlov?

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:09Speaker 04

  It could be in the trillions. And if you directly want to trace a program that was sculpted by somebody without the safeguards, I mean, you're talking about, like, literally, it could be a trillion dollars in missing money that nobody knows where it is, but nobody-

• 38:26Jessica Tarlov?

  They don't care about that fraud.

• 38:28Speaker 04

  They don't care about that.

• 38:28Jessica Tarlov?

  No, it's crazy. And also, I brought this up when we were talking about it. I said, what about this guy Philip S. Form? You know, the nursing home mogul who defrauded people out of 1.3 billion dollars. Trump commuted his sentence. David Gentile, 1.6 billion dollars. Like, we can't hold them to any sort of normal human standard or any sort of normal hypocrisy standard.

• 38:52Speaker 04

  Think about this, Jessica, and I have a question for you. This is why what you do is so incredibly important, because if you aren't doing it, who else is doing it? But, you know, you're having to-

• 39:05Speaker 04

  Debate issues that, you know, are being thrown in these directions as almost like traps. And they're traps as Trump tries to distract from the Epstein files, as Trump tries to distract from the fact that his economy is not helping the American people. And it's a hard thing because you're arguing with a group of people who already have framed an argument in a way before it even starts with an outcome to bring you on a direction that you're like, but shouldn't we be talking about this, this and that?

• 39:40Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 04

  So that's the thing, though, that you always have to contend with every day, that I admire when you have to pivot it back to say, okay, but what about what the American people are going through?

• 39:49Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And I definitely feel like I'm always starting from a bit of a disadvantage. It is why I like going last, though. Like batting cleanup is a lot easier because I'm always taking notes. I'm like, I want to say this about this and this about that. But also I have to spend time thinking about these facets of a story that I wouldn't normally because, you know, Hunter Biden is always my favorite example, that people who think that Joe Biden was running like a crime boss family are talking about like diamonds coming from Mexico and whatever's going on with oligarchs from Belarus and like all this stuff. And you need to know what's going on in order to talk about it.

• 40:32Jessica Tarlov?

  And the fraud scandal wasn't quite on that level, but definitely had to know what the perspective of, you know, the Nick Shirley supporters or acolytes or whatever you want to call them are. And it's obviously hugely important that the administration threw their weight behind this and that factored into Tim Walz's decision because it was going to be a hellscape, right? Like battling through. This primary and then a general election like this. And there's been reporting that the Republican Party in Minnesota coordinated with Nick Shirley when it came to that viral video. I love Amy Klobuchar. I hope that she is getting in on this gubernatorial race. I think that she will wipe the floor with them and they kind of would wish actually that they were running against him walls.

• 41:17Jessica Tarlov?

  But I want to circle back to what you said about the media environment because I think that this relates directly to what you guys are doing at Midas. So I've seen a lot of people, you know, posting online about the asymmetry in our media chambers, like the left versus the right. So you wouldn't have a Republican resigning for any perceived scandal anyway. But this really speaks to the fact that Democrats don't have a good media strategy to protect Democrats and to fight back against bad information. And that's not to say, again, that the fraud scandal isn't real. It is absolutely real and some of it is absolutely appalling. But what do you make of that from, you know, the lens of someone who has built this enormous

• 42:01Jessica Tarlov?

  left wing media network?

• 42:03Speaker 04

  You know, as I've built it out, you know, at first, when I started this, first time, I never liked politics in general. I mean, I interned on the Hill, but then I became a civil rights lawyer.

• 42:16Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah, Colin Kaepernick's lawyer.

• 42:17Speaker 04

  I was Kaepernick's lawyer in the NFL case, but I never really liked politics. Then COVID happens and I was really scared, so I just wanted to speak about what was going on. And then I thought I was speaking in a political voice. So then I started, you know, saying, I guess what I am is I'm political and I'm, this is where I fit on a political spectrum. So here's what I am. And then what I've learned kind of over the year period before the January 6th insurrection is actually that, and my wife will disagree with me when I say, I actually still don't like politics in the sense of the gamified nature of, of a political fight. And she goes, yes, you love politics. All you do is talk about politics. And I said, no, what I really care about most about the network is the people.

• 43:02Speaker 04

  And there's a reason that our message on Midas, not Only resonates with people in the United States. But as we build out and built out Midas Canada. You know what I'll hear is in a small mining town in Northern Ontario. There'll be people who this message resonates with. Who would otherwise be voting for a Pierre Poliev or a Conservative Party. And the same messaging is working in Australia. And and so the question is, is why is that happening? And and I've been thinking about this and I actually think it's because. The core values and principles that we talk about are relatable on on an international. Human level to combat a lot of the forces happening on the right wing.

• 43:46Speaker 04

  And I guess it's a decent time to talk about that now. I alluded to this earlier. I think Trump's a vessel of a broader right wing talking point regime. That's found a good vessel in him. And in America, everything is bigger and louder and more obnoxious sometimes. And they found it, you know, in this Trump orange monster, whatever you wanna, you know, say that he is. But the talking points there are very similar to the special operation, this and that. You know, and the immigration rhetoric. It's very similar to how Orban sounds in Hungary. It's the language that Putin uses. It's the language that Pierre Poliev in Canada was using. You know, before Carney really stepped in the race and neutralized that. Yeah. It's the same language they're utilizing in Australia.

• 44:30Speaker 04

  You know, so it's all part of this broader framework. And I think that that needs to be understood. By the Democratic Party or anybody. That there's a broader force at play that's tested. Not just in laboratories of autocracy in states. The laboratories of autocracies internationally. And Democrats, I think the only way to combat. A lot of what you see on the right wing. Is by being human and not being robotic and not being so laboratory tested. And emoting and showing people that you care about them truthfully. And so when we talk about Democrats building a media environment. I truly believe, and it's not to end this on like a corny note of like love will beat hate. But to some extent, you have to deal with.

• 45:16Speaker 04

  These broader forces of what galvanizes and energizes and excites people. And that actually is kind of bringing people together and reminding people that there's a way to be happy together and there's a way to help and live in a world that isn't filled with toxicity and hate every day. You know, when Obama ran on hope, right?

• 45:38Jessica Tarlov?

  I was gonna say, hope and change, which is the last time we really had a galvanizing force or political message, I think, on the left that resonated and even resonated over to some moderate Republicans.

• 45:51Speaker 04

  Right.

• 45:51Jessica Tarlov?

  Right?

• 45:52Speaker 04

  So I just think that's the biggest reason for the success of the network. And I think when Democrats go up there and speak, whether it's on our network or any other network, they have to recognize who they're speaking to. And they're speaking to someone who's scared, who feels alone, who feels that they're not being defended, who feels, you know, very confused. And I've rarely seen a politician like look into the camera and say, I care about you and I hear, like, you don't hear that. You know, I care about you. I hear you. I'm listening to you. Tell me how you feel. And that combined with the right media ecosystem, I think, is the right way to grow something special and different.

• 46:34Jessica Tarlov?

  Well, you would be the guy who would know about what can be done and how to build a successful network. So invaluable tips on that. And I like it because I'm a softie that way. I want someone to look into the camera and tell me that they care about me. So hopefully we'll be seeing more of that in the midterms. And we're gonna take one more quick break. Make sure you guys stay with us.

• 47:01Speaker 02

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• 48:00Scott Galloway?

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• 49:08Jessica Tarlov?

  Welcome back. Last story of the day. I want to talk about this billionaire tax proposal. So Silicon Valley is having a very public family fight aimed straight at its own congressman, Rep. Ro Khanna, friend of the show, who's backing a proposed one-time billionaire wealth tax in California. Some of the richest constituents are furious. I think he has the wealthiest district in the country. Right, Ro?

• 49:30Speaker 08

  Right.

• 49:30Jessica Tarlov?

  Furious enough to talk about funding a primary challenger, which no one likes to hear if you're a sitting congressperson. This is ground zero for the next phase of the inequality debate. What happens when the AI boom minces more billionaires, squeezes middle-class jobs, and politicians start testing how far voters and donors are willing to go? What's your take overall on a billionaire wealth tax?

• 49:52Speaker 04

  I think that there should be one. I think that first you start off with billionaires paying their fair share, which they're not doing right now, even as it is.

• 50:04Jessica Tarlov?

  In an income tax, not like a straight wealth tax, just like raising the income tax level, closing loopholes, or in a kind of...

• 50:11Speaker 04

  Both. I mean, I think, I think first you have to start off with saying, why in our tax code are there, why is there basically subsidies for billionaires and a welfare program for billionaires built into our tax code in either tax shelters or deductions? Or why do they get to, you don't want to pay taxes on a huge chunk of your change. You could go and buy private jets and then depreciate the value of your, I mean, so there's stuff like that, and I think to the average American should just piss you off. You know, and then when there's a broader question of, should there be a billionaire

• 50:52Speaker 04

  tax? You know, ultimately, I think the amount of money that billionaires, and I think Mamdani made this argument on a podcast, the amount of money you spent to fight me was less than what the tax would have been that could actually, you know, help the people. So you're spending more annually to attack me than you are to be taxed, which tells you that on the opposite side of that equation, they're making far more, far much more money in the aggregate than what the tax would ultimately be. And so my view is, is that they should be taxed more. I'm fine with a billionaire tax. I think it needs to be sculpted the right way. Ultimately, some of the arguments that I hear made seem to be kind of these red herring

• 51:33Speaker 04

  arguments of, well, what happens to the founder who's making $150,000 a year, but his paper wealth is actually a billion dollars because they haven't been able to go liquid yet? So now you're saying that that person who's technically has a net worth of a billion dollars needs to pay? And then I think Rohan's response to some of the tech bro attack on that was, of course, we have to deal with those situations differently. But the question is... Where there is this liquid billions and billions of dollars that are that are, you know, in income. And ultimately, ultimately, I think it's in the interest of the billionaire to want to do

• 52:16Speaker 04

  that in order to have a better society and to have a better, you know, how many jets do you need? How many yachts do you need? How many mansions do you need? I mean, you need 15 mansions and 10 private jets and

• 52:29Jessica Tarlov?

  I think that's going to be a tough sell to some of these guys. I can't wait to see you go out there and say, you guys, this will make you happier if I take 5% of your assets. I just want to quickly give some background, though, for our listeners. So this is a proposed ballot initiative. It's being shopped around by the SEIU, the union. It would be a one-time 5% tax on the estimated 255 billionaires in California. It wouldn't tax income, it would just tax assets. The idea or where they came up with this is to try to claw back some of the money for healthcare that's stripped away in the big beautiful bill, which will come fully into effect this year. About 90 cents of every dollar raised by the tax would be

• 53:11Jessica Tarlov?

  spent on healthcare, while the remaining 10 cents would be earmarked for food assistance or education, as per the proposal. What's interesting about Kana backing it is Gavin Newsom is not. So he's against a wealth tax. He has been consistently, he's on the record for several years. And wealth taxes have been tried all over the world, France, Sweden, Austria, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Finland, Iceland, they all discarded their wealth taxes and said, to your point about the specific cases, well, we have to make sure that in this case, we don't do this. It was basically too hard to administer and it was bringing in not enough money to make it worthwhile, which I didn't know and thought was interesting for the amount of folks that are prominent, especially on the left, that talk like this,

• 53:56Jessica Tarlov?

  like the Bernie Sanderses and the Elizabeth Warrens of the world. A lot of countries that they think are run better than we are, have scrapped their wealth taxes.

• 54:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, that's where, though, a clear articulation of the issues need to happen. I mean, I think where the American people feel is that what we've seen take place since the 60s and the 70s. Once upon a time, everybody can have this American dream. You could work a job, can buy a home, you can afford college, you can go on a vacation. And that was your life. And you could raise kids and you were comfortable. Your kids could have a better life than you or a similar life than you. And you can call that an American dream. But then as private equity started buying up the homes and everything became commoditized.

• 54:48Speaker 04

  And the CEO salary ended up being 2,000 or three times the salary of the average worker. All of these tax loopholes where the richest people are now paying not just less than of a tax rate, but sometimes just underlying less taxes than like a teacher makes. I mean, when you looked at Donald Trump's taxes that were produced, there were a number of years where he literally paid like $0 or the filing fee of $750. So I think the broader frustration of people is seeing this unaccountable class of billionaires that is getting a form of welfare, but for billionaires. And they get bailed out of everything. The first talk about subsidies that are acceptable to Donald Trump,

• 55:32Speaker 04

  bringing this episode full circle, are subsidies for oil companies to go into Venezuela. But we're not extending the Affordable Care Act subsidies to allow the American people to afford their healthcare. So the broader issue is framed around this massive wealth inequality that gets more massive by the day. And how do we approach it? And I think Kana has an approach. I think Gavin has an approach. And I, I think ultimately the right solution is probably somewhere, you know, in the middle between those two approaches. But is to figure out, how do we get back to a system where billionaires are paying their fair share?

• 56:13Speaker 04

  And the first thing we do in a tax code is not to rush to help them, but we rush to help people who are hanging on a thread about their, their existence and their survival.

• 56:24Jessica Tarlov?

  Healthcare over private jets seems like a pretty easy sell to basically everyone that votes except a few of the private jet owners. I just quickly before we go, curious, what are you thinking about for 2028? Are there any candidates and potential candidates in particular that you're interested in? And do you think I should have asked you this in the Minnesota section? I mean, Tim Walz is now not going to be thinking about 2028, obviously, that he's not running. Do you agree with that?

• 56:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I agree.

• 56:52Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah, okay.

• 56:53Speaker 04

  I agree.

• 56:53Jessica Tarlov?

  I'm just making sure.

• 56:54Speaker 04

  I think the way I think about it is less, you know, who do I like or not like? And it's more, what are the paths that exist?

• 57:01Jessica Tarlov?

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:02Speaker 04

  I think the path is going to be someone who strongly stands up to Trump during these difficult times. And I think that there are different ways about doing it. And I think that there's a governor's path.

• 57:14Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah.

• 57:15Speaker 04

  Strong governor stands up. And I think when you see Governor Newsom, what he did with Prop 50, I think the benefits of that will also be seen again in the midterms. And he'll be able to claim a victory then. I think that there's a path there. So if you look at governors, you know, I think Newsom has the leading edge of a governor's path. I think there is like a senator's path where, you know, you have a lot of people, whether it's Murphy, or a Gallego, or a Kelly, or people who are going to be asserting themselves more now, and perhaps that next year, if the Democrats take control of the House or the Senate, as being real leaders and launching investigations of Trump. So

• 58:00Speaker 04

  there's that accountability path. And then the third path, you know, is a Mam Donnie style path, a democratic socialist path, someone who kind of comes out of nowhere, who's not even polling at 1% right now, but who galvanizes, obviously, it can't be a Mam Donnie, let's be clear about, but who is that third, you know, that third rail? And who's positioning themselves? Who is the right candidate there? Who is unapologetically kind of democratic socialist, and who goes out there and says, here's what we're doing? I don't make any apologies. About this and then the question becomes is well, how does somebody like a Newsom or the governor's path? Or a Senator, you know, member path?

• 58:44Speaker 04

  How do they deal with that? To me, that I see it more in terms of the paths than who specifically, you know, intrigues me. And I think right now the favorite would be a Governor Newsom. If we were to look at just who, you know, where the position is.

• 58:59Jessica Tarlov?

  The polymarket of it.

• 59:00Speaker 04

  But but ultimately for me, we're gonna, you know, at the Midas Touch network as the race develops. You know, we're not going to pick a person or say this or that, you know, ultimately for us, it's gonna be. Everybody can, you know, say their piece and on one day we'll have this interview with someone who's quote unquote, more moderate and then someone who's quote unquote, more left. They'll all have a place to share their views to the people and let the people decide.

• 59:25Jessica Tarlov?

  Well, for someone who doesn't like politics, you're also very good at being political. I love that answer. I I see it similarly. I'm also excited by the prospect that maybe the candidate will be someone we're just not thinking about at all. You said not even polling 1%. Maybe it's just like not, no one's even considering the possibility of this person.

• 59:45Jessica Tarlov?

  I hope it gets a little bit wild and fun and that we hear some great exchanges of ideas. And also I'd like to do well in the midterms and the interim. Ben, this was such a pleasure. Thank you for joining me.

• 59:55Speaker 04

  I'm glad we did this always. Scott, we'll be going on more vacations. Feel free to go on more.

• 1:00:00Jessica Tarlov?

  He's an unstoppable vacation machine. So you're gonna be seeing a lot of me.

• 1:00:04Speaker 04

  Amazing. Great to be with you and thanks for having me on the show.

• 1:00:07Jessica Tarlov?

  Yeah. And thanks for all that you guys do.

• 1:00:09Speaker 04

  Everybody subscribe to Midas Touch, everybody. My brother Jordy will be upset if I don't plug it. Subscribe to Midas Touch if you're not already subscribed.

• 1:00:16Jessica Tarlov?

  Yes, that is implied through the whole thing. Subscribe to Midas Touch and Raging Moderates, obviously. Yeah.

• 1:00:29Speaker 05

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• 1:00:59Speaker 09

  When you shop pickup at Kroger, you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries selected just for you. Our associates are committed to getting every detail right, carefully handpicking your items, checking for quality and freshness, and packing your order with care. Because bringing you fresh, quality groceries is what we do best. And right now, enjoy $20 off your first online order of $75 or more. Restrictions apply. See site for details. Kroger. Fresh for everyone.

• 1:01:29Speaker 08

  Looking for a simple way to thank your clients or recognize employees for a job well done? A Starbucks Card is more than a gift. It's a pick-me-up, a break in their day, and a reminder that you appreciate them. Whether you're shopping for digital or physical cards in bulk, Starbucks Cards are the perfect gift to brighten anyone's day. Share the joy of coffee and connection when you give the gift of Starbucks. Shop Starbucks Cards in Bulk now at StarbucksCardB2B.com.