The Space Boom Is Just Beginning

Ed Elson sits down with Sir Peter Beck, founder and CEO of Rocket Lab, to discuss why space is having a moment right now, what he makes of soaring valuations across the industry, and why space has become a geopolitical race. He also shares whether he believes humans will make it to Mars in our lifetime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 1:36Ed Elson?

  Welcome to the Profty Markets Founder Series. I'm Ed Elson. The global space economy is projected to reach $1.8 trillion by 2035. What was once an industry dominated by governments is rapidly becoming one of the most important commercial markets in the world, shaping everything from national security and communications to scientific discovery and defense. My next guest has built one of the leading companies at the center of that transformation, what began as a company focused on lowering the cost and increasing The frequency of small satellite launches has evolved into a full-scale space systems business. Today, the company designs satellites, builds spacecraft

• 2:19Ed Elson?

  components and provides launch services that are helping shape the future of the commercial space industry with more than $200 million in revenue last quarter and a backlog that has grown to roughly $2.2 billion. The company has emerged as one of the biggest players in the future of space. This is my conversation with Sir Peter Beck, the founder and CEO of Rocket Lab. Peter, thank you so much for joining us on the show. I think what would be helpful to get started here is an explanation of what Rocket Lab actually does. Clearly, you're in the business of space, but there are lots of different things that are involved in the space industry. So what is Rocket Lab doing? What services are you providing?

• 3:04Speaker 09

  Well, thanks very much, Ed. I think you did a fantastic introduction, by the way. There's not much more to be said, but.

• 3:11Ed Elson?

  Cut it there. Done. Interview over.

• 3:12Speaker 09

  Yeah, yeah, done. Yeah, we're good to go. No, I mean, so what we're really trying to build here is an end-to-end space company. So what that means is that, you know, providing services directly from space and everything below that. You mentioned launch. Obviously, launch is, you know, the keys to space and the ride to space. And then satellites are obviously, you know, the systems that provide the services. And then, you know, ultimately, if you go up one level higher, it's actually the services from space. And a thesis here is that, you know, if you can build the satellites and, you know, vertically integrate all of your own components and then vertically integrate your own launch, then your ability to provide

• 3:55Speaker 09

  services from space is obviously an advantage to somebody who has to go and buy all that stuff either from you or others. So, you know, that's, that's kind of the end goal for the company. And we're sort of methodically, you know, step after step, pushing towards that. And, you know, as you mentioned, you know, now we are one of the largest component suppliers in the space industry. I think something like 30% of everything that went to space last year had a Rocket Lab logo on it somewhere. And, you know, we build the satellites and the spacecraft and the rockets and everything, everything in between.

• 4:27Ed Elson?

  Just some more context for the space virgins listening to this podcast. What kinds of companies are buying your products? Like, what kind of company would buy a rocket component or a satellite? Who are those clients?

• 4:44Speaker 09

  They range from the full end of the spectrum. So on the launch side, we have launched a little CubeSat for a bunch of Californian high schools. And then we also with the, you know, with the same product, launch the most important national security missions where lives are dependent on it. So, you know, that's kind of the beauty of the business is that, you know, and of the space industry is that it really does cover a tremendous swath of different applications. But I would say that, you know, more generally, 50% of our business is commercial and 50% of our business is government. And, you know, on the commercial side, it's earth observation and communications.

• 5:25Speaker 09

  And then on the government side, it's it's national security missions and then also civil stuff. So, you know, we built a couple of spacecraft and just recently and they're on their way to Mars for NASA. So all sorts of interesting things.

• 5:41Ed Elson?

  It's helpful, I think, to sort of separate the different categories in this business. We usually just think of space as space, but it seems that there are so many different applications and so many different businesses that are accomplishing very different things. If it would be, I'd love if you could just sort of lay out what some of those businesses are. I mean, on the one hand, we've we've discussed satellites and of course satellites are essential for telecommunications and also government work. We want to go explore planets and you need someone to go lift that stuff into space and get that stuff out there. What are some of the most important businesses in the space industry right now?

• 6:20Speaker 09

  Maybe we start a little bit higher up in in the fact that. Space is just infrastructure, really. And it's it's it's slightly unusual infrastructure in the fact that it's it's completely hidden. And, you know, you often talk to folks and and, you know, they'll say, wow, this this space stuff, you know, it's all sci fi, it doesn't affect me. And and then, you know, they'll go home and and order a pizza and the pizza turns up at their house magically. Um, and, you know, they don't realise that in ordering that pizza, they they they may have interfaced with, um, you know, with space to to to make their communication. Um, but certainly they've they've uh they've kind of interfaced with space because the guy delivering their pizza has used GPS to get there.

• 7:02Speaker 09

  And so it's there's a whole bunch of infrastructure in orbit, orbit, whether it be, you know, GPS or communications or observations that everybody uses in their everyday lives, but just sort of doesn't realise it. And, you know, I think if you if you want to break it down into the to the most, you know, simplest forms, you have uh you have earth observation. Uh, and that can cover all different spectrums, whether it's visible light or non visible light or RF. Um, and those are the that, you know, for for mum and dad at home, that's like weather. So how do I get, you know, satellite weather? Um, is is, you know, it's it's a it's it's an obvious one. And then communications, you know, GPS falls under that. And then, you know, the probably, you know, I'm sitting down here in New Zealand now.

• 7:46Speaker 09

  Um, you're you're somewhere else around the world and there's probably um probably some of that link is done through space. So, um, you know, communications is obviously a a huge element. But what I would say is that, you know, the the biggest thing to be thought of and done in space, I believe, is is is hasn't even been thought of yet. And if you just roll the clock back a couple of years and someone said that you're going to put data centers in orbit, I think most people would say, well, that's that doesn't sound that doesn't sound feasible. But yet, you know, there's a huge push there. And then go back a few more years and you would say, well, you know, uh internet from space, um, in the form of like a Starlink or an an Amazon, um, uh Leo would would would be, you know.

• 8:30Speaker 09

  Fictitious and then now it's like everybody's using that same with direct to mobile devices from space. So you know, it's constantly redefining itself and as more use cases arrive, then you know, that's one of the reasons why the space industry is just growing so rapidly.

• 8:47Ed Elson?

  Yeah, the pace of the growth in recent years especially is really striking. And we just look at the stock price of your company Rocket Lab, it's up 400% in the past year. Other space stocks are going crazy, AST Space Mobile up more than 200%, ViaSat up 600%. I mean, this is like space's moment. It's a little confusing though, because you know, you point out, when you order a pizza, you're interacting with space equipment and companies such as yours are the companies that were responsible for getting that kind of equipment out there. But people have been ordering pizzas from a mobile phone for a very long time, which leads me to my question,

• 9:29Ed Elson?

  which is like, why is it now? Why now are these companies so exciting? What has happened in the past one or two years where suddenly everyone is realizing and waking up that there is this massive commercial opportunity in the space industry?

• 9:44Speaker 09

  Well, I think the answer to that is that space has been dominated by governments and government sectors. And what you've witnessed in the last sort of decade, I would say, is the complete democratization of space. So let's just use the GPS example. So you know, all those GPS satellites currently up in orbit are government assets, right? I mean, they were originally designed as defense assets. Now, I think if you were to take all of those assets out of the sky and start afresh, it wouldn't be governments putting them back up. It would 100% be commercial entities putting them back up. And I'll just give you another example, you know,

• 10:26Speaker 09

  of our escapade mission to Mars for NASA. So you know, those are spacecraft, NASA gave us a spec and said, look, we want to do this at Mars. We went away and designed and built, you know, not one. But two spacecraft that are currently on the way to Mars for, you know, to complete NASA's mission. Prior to that, that would have been a NASA internal project and, you know, it wouldn't have been a commercial thing. So even stuff like, you know, deep space interplanetary missions are now, you know, now being outsourced commercially. And some of that is that, you know, the commercial market has established itself, but also, you

• 11:07Speaker 09

  know, the skills and the expertise have been distributed and capital has been allocated so that commercial companies can actually go and do those sorts of things.

• 11:15Ed Elson?

  Well, I think this kind of gets to the heart of why we want to talk to you. And it's a lot about your story. I mean, you started this company in two thousand and six. For those who haven't recognized it yet, you are from New Zealand. And, I mean, you essentially decided to build a company where there didn't seem to be much commercial opportunity at all. And yet, here we are, and you're generating hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue and you're a publicly traded company. So why did you start this company? And why did you believe that this would actually be a real commercially viable business?

• 11:59Speaker 09

  Well, I mean, firstly, NASA wouldn't employ me, so I didn't really have too many options. So the only viable option open to me was to start my own company and I just happened to live in New Zealand. Now, Rocket Lab these days is a global company. In fact, the vast majority of the company is not in New Zealand. There's still, you know, an element here for sure, but, you know, the vast majority is everywhere else. But, I mean, in simple forms, you know, I started building rockets when I was a kid, right? So it was always something I wanted to go and do. And, you know, I went on a bit of a rocket pilgrimage one year to the United States and I learned a couple of really important things. One, NASA wouldn't employ me.

• 12:41Ed Elson?

  Why is that? Sorry, if I could just ask, why wouldn't they employ you? Because you weren't a citizen or you applied and they didn't, they didn't accept the application? What happened?

• 12:50Speaker 09

  I'm a foreign national with no university degree. Like, it's, you know, it's hardly the top of the list, is it? So. So you know, but the other thing I learned is, is I went around and looked at it, visited a bunch of the little startup companies in the Mojave Desert and whatnot, and looked at what they were doing. And what they were doing was absolutely no different to what I was doing here at home. So I'm like, oh, hang on a minute. So there's not a massive gulf between what I'm doing and what everybody else is doing. So maybe I should just do it.

• 13:19Ed Elson?

  I think the question we're all asking is how did a young man end up deciding to build rockets? And how do you even do that? If we could hear more about how that ended up happening.

• 13:33Speaker 09

  Some of my youngest memories are standing outside with my father and, you know, he was an avid, avid kind of enthusiast in astronomy as well. And, and I remember him pointing out to me that, you know, all those stars in the sky that you can see, most of them have planets around them. And on one of those planets, there could be somebody standing there looking back at you. And that, that moment for me was like, right, this space thing is, is bigger than, bigger than anything. So this is, this is what I want to do. And, you know, I had a natural propensity to engineering. So you mix those two things together and, and, you know, what else are you going to build but rockets? I mean, that's the obvious outcome.

• 14:12Ed Elson?

  At what age did you start actually building rockets?

• 14:15Speaker 09

  So I was at school when it sort of got a little bit more serious. So, because the, the metalwork teacher would let me use the metalwork room at lunchtime in the weekends. So, you know, that would have been probably fifteen, fourteen.

• 14:29Ed Elson?

  And so you're working at school, at lunch breaks, the guy's letting you use the metalworks. And then at what point do you start to really operationalize this? At what point does this go from a kid using the, the DT workshop at lunchtime to actually building a company?

• 14:46Speaker 09

  There's a little bit of a, you know, a story in between there. So, you know, I left school and pursued a tool and die making apprenticeship. And, you know, the plan was to go to university, but I, you know, in New Zealand, there's no aerospace courses or anything like that. And, and I always felt that, you know, I can learn a tremendous amount by, by building things and having those hand skills to, to build the things that I wanted to build was really important. So I did a, an apprenticeship in, in tool and die making. And it was at a company called Fisher and Pyke, which is an appliance, a white wear manufacturer.

• 15:24Speaker 09

  And then, you know, no sooner I finished my apprenticeship, I went into the design office and did a production machinery design and designed, you know, machines and robots and then into product design and then into analysis. And then I went and worked at a super yacht company where I was a project engineer responsible for a 123 foot super yacht. And that was really, you know, informative part of my career because in the morning, you know, you have to, had to work and communicate effectively with, you know, some, some guys on the shop floor who were, who were in some cases illiterate. And then in the afternoon, you know, the owner of the yacht would fly in in his helicopter and, and, you know, you have to, have to be able to communicate effectively with, with,

• 16:09Speaker 09

  with him as well. And so that, that was super informative. And then, then I went to a New Zealand national lab. So it's kind of, you know, a government research lab where I did advanced materials and superconductors. And that's where I learned a lot about composites and we did a lot of composites work for America's Cup boats and, and all those sorts of things. And it was during my time there at this research institute that I went over to the States and did my rocket pilgrimage and, and came back and quit, quit my job and, and put a sign up on the door and that was the beginning of Rocket Lab.

• 16:46Ed Elson?

  We'll be right back.

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• 18:31Ed Elson?

  We're back with Peter Beck. So what does it take to actually build a company at that point? To actually, that is actually building rockets? Like, what does the recruitment process look like? What does the fundraising process look like? Like, how do you convince an investor that they're gonna get their money back by giving you money to build rockets into space?

• 18:52Speaker 09

  That's, that's less trivial. So, uh, look, we, you know, we started with a small amount of investment and, um, and really bootstrapped the company. And we've launched our first rocket to space, not to orbit, just a little rocket to space in 2009. And then following that, I went in and, uh, visited, you know, a lot of, a lot of folks in the United States who were very enamored with what we had done on, on such a short timeframe. And we ended up sort of bootstrapping the company a little bit longer. And we, you know, we worked for Lockheed Martin and, and DARPA Defense Agencies and did lots of kind of really advanced technology kind of work. And it wasn't until 2013 where I really felt that I had the credibility and the capability

• 19:36Speaker 09

  to go and build an orbital class vehicle. So I got on a plane and went to Silicon Valley and gave myself three weeks to come home with a cheque or be run out of town. And at the end of those three weeks, we had our first Series A round in the bag from Cozula Ventures.

• 19:55Ed Elson?

  When you make that pitch to these Silicon Valley investors, I mean, obviously they're trying to figure out how this becomes profitable. What does that pitch look like? Are you kind of describing the need for space equipment today? Or is it more of a pitch about something, you know, hundreds of years in the future? Like, what does that pitch at that point actually look like?

• 20:17Speaker 09

  You know, nobody's interested in anything a hundred years in the future, especially if you're a venture capitalist. But, but, but, but no, I mean, I think where I was able to communicate effectively, the, the opportunity and, and, and the, you know, the scale of, of, of that. And, and also, you know, it was, it was at this time where, you know, small investments were being made into space companies. So, you know, Vinod at Cozula Ventures had invested in a company called Skybox, which, you know, later Google bought for half a billion dollars. So, you know, the Cozula Ventures guys knew the, the pain of launch because they had to buy an old ICBM out of Russia and, and, you know, it was very, very painful to launch. And, you know, it's, it's funny though, because

• 21:01Speaker 09

  I look at today and then I look back then and, and, you know, our, our Series A round was five million dollars. And that was considered, you know, a lot of money back then for a rocket company. And then, you know, I saw a rocket company just the other day raise $200 million on a $2.2 billion valuation and they'd built nothing. And it's like, wow, this is, this is how times have changed. But anyway, so we raised that Series A and I've, I've always, you know, run, run a company and, and I'm pretty straightforward and just do what you say you're going to do and everything's fine. And we did. Did that and we were able to quickly raise a B round and then a C round and, and you

• 21:45Speaker 09

  know, before you knew it, we had a rocket on the pad and, and, um, you know, we're, we're in orbit and flying customers and away we went.

• 21:51Ed Elson?

  You mentioned some of these insane valuations and these series A rounds, 2.2 billion dollar valuation for a company that hasn't actually built anything.

• 21:59Speaker 09

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 22:01Ed Elson?

  Just crazy, but then also you look at the, the, the valuations and the pricing on the companies that actually are building things and the valuations are pretty stunning. The multiples are pretty stunning, including on your company.

• 22:12Speaker 09

  Sure.

• 22:12Ed Elson?

  And one thing that is, I think notable about the space industry is we haven't really seen it be proven as a profitable business yet. So your, your company isn't profitable. It's expected to, and I say it'll be profitable in 2028. But I, I, I'm interested to know what the prize is from a business perspective for a lot of these investors because clearly there, there's something out there. There's some prize that's going to be so great, they will warrant these unbelievable valuations that we are seeing. What is that prize and what would this business look like, say 10 or 20 years down the line?

• 22:50Speaker 09

  Yeah, well, I think, I think it's a little bit mean to say that space businesses aren't really profitable. I mean, I think you can look back through history and, and, and sure that there's, there's been plenty of bankruptcies as well. But there's also, uh, you know, been, been plenty of profitability, um, in, in a number of space businesses, you know, to address the valuation, um, kind of element. And look, I completely agree. There's, there's some valuations that are completely untethered to reality. But I think, um, you know, with respect to us, uh, right now there are two companies on this planet that have successfully scaled launch, um, to any level of frequency and reliability. And, you know, that SpaceX and us.

• 23:31Speaker 09

  So, you know, you know, access to orbit on a regular and reliable basis is rare. It's like extremely, extremely rare. So, um, you know, it's, it's, and, you know, when I started Rocket Lab and, and, uh, you know, when I started developing the, the electron class vehicle. At one point, we were tracking a hundred and forty two companies trying to do exactly the same thing, a hundred and forty two companies. And where are the hundred and forty two companies? That that kind of gives you a sense of just how ridiculously difficult it is. I wish it was way easier, that would make my life way easier, but it is it is insanely difficult. And when we were raising capital for Electron, there was, you know, the the the big, you

• 24:16Speaker 09

  know, show in town was Virgin Orbit. And, you know, Richard Branson had funded that business to the tune of one point two billion dollars to do exactly the same thing that, you know, Electron does today. And it wasn't successful. It's not even like if you just pay enough money, you'll be successful. It's it is like there are so many elements that have to be absolutely perfect and lined up to make a successful, you know, launch business in particular, that it's it's just incredibly rare. And, you know, anything that's rare, you know, attracts a certain a certain value. But, you know, as as we think about going forward, yes, the, you know, that the space industry is is seeing tremendous excitement and tremendous growth right now. And and, you know, is all of it justified? Probably not.

• 24:59Speaker 09

  But but nevertheless, there is, you know, a huge, huge commercial opportunity. And my belief is that there's going to be a small handful of of companies, and these companies are going to be end to end companies, meaning that they have their own rocket, they have their own spacecraft, and they're providing services from space. And they'll take out the majority of the price.

• 25:23Ed Elson?

  Just to to go back to the profitability point, and just so we're clear, I mean, I am a huge fan of space. I I'm like, I read about science fiction all the time. I'm so excited about it. I want these companies to build these rockets, and I want us to go to Mars, and I want us to explore space. I'm like, pro. So I didn't mean for it to sound mean on the profitability point.

• 25:44Speaker 09

  No, not at all.

• 25:45Ed Elson?

  My understanding, which I'd like to understand more about, is that so far, it is a business that doesn't make money. So far. So I guess I'd love some clarity on that.

• 25:59Speaker 09

  Yeah, well, I mean, you know, you can go back and look at a bunch of businesses like, you know, Digital Globe is an example. You know, that's a, they're probably the dominating earth observation company in the industry right now. And so, I mean, you know, historically, there's, yes, there's been a number of businesses that have failed, but I think, you know, there's tremendous number of them have been successful as well.

• 26:27Ed Elson?

  Space is a geopolitical topic in a lot of ways. And I mean, this is how space really ramped up. It became a fight or a race between the US and the Soviet Union. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the extent to which that is still a dynamic in the space industry. I mean, now it seems to be kind of like a race against China. China is, of course, ramping up their space program. What are your thoughts on the US versus China versus any nation? To what extent is this kind of a geopolitical race?

• 27:01Speaker 09

  Well, I mean, space is the ultimate high ground. So from a, from a national security and defense standpoint, it is the ultimate high ground. So space superiority means land, sea and, you know, air superiority. So, you know, that is, is always true. So, you know, and I think what you're referring to there is, is like the Apollo program where, you know, you know, that, that is a, you know, an example of, of kind of, I think everybody thinks it was, you know, a wonderful, you know, philanthropic mission, but it was, it was, it was a Cold War mission to demonstrate to Russia that the US had absolute supremacy

• 27:42Speaker 09

  and was very successful in doing that. And, you know, I think, could, could we be up for another moon race with China? I think that's, that's highly possible too. But, but I think, you know, make no mistake, that, that space is the ultimate high ground for for national security.

• 28:00Ed Elson?

  Could you explain more how it is the high ground? I mean, one thing that I've been starting to hear more about is, you know, whoever gets to the moon and establishes a base on the moon or on Mars, they can sort of claim it. And now we're hearing more about sort of space wars. I mean, it seems that this is like really the next frontier in terms of power, conflict. I mean,

• 28:22Speaker 09

  I'm not so sure about that. I think, I think at the end of the day, you know, everybody wants to be first and everybody wants to show supremacy. So, you know, the US has already been to the moon. So job done. And the next logical step for the US is to, is to put, you know, some sustaining present to moon base on there. And, you know, that has to be either economically viable or geopolitically, you know, a requirement. One of those two things has to be true. So, you know, whichever way that shapes out, but I don't, and I'm not sure that there's, you know, there's, there's a whole bunch of, you know, flag planting and, and, and property, you know, gaining there to be done.

• 29:04Ed Elson?

  Why do you think that wouldn't happen? Why, why is that something that we shouldn't worry too much about?

• 29:09Speaker 09

  It's kind of like nuclear war in the sense that if you mess it all up, then it's no good for anybody. So, you know, if you're, if you're in low earth orbit and start blowing satellites up, then you just create, you know, large debris fields and then your own satellites get, get kind of, you know, consumed by that debris field and, and all of your own industries suffers. So, so, you know, it's, it's, I very much see it, see it in that sense. And, and so I think, you know, everybody has, is, is likely to be pretty responsible there.

• 29:42Ed Elson?

  So something you mentioned earlier, Peter, is the idea of data centers in space. And this is something that a lot of people have been talking about. Elon Musk has been talking about it a lot.

• 29:51Ed Elson?

  Are you excited about this as an industry? Do you think this is something that'll work? Do you think that this is the next step in terms of the space industry?

• 30:00Speaker 09

  Yeah, like I think absolutely space data centers will exist. Probably not necessarily for the reasons that everybody else thinks. But for me, you know, from a strategic and national security and defense rationale that makes tremendous sense to air gap something like that and have that as a, you know, as an important asset. So I think they absolutely will exist. Now, will all compute leave the earth? I guess I'm slightly less optimistic about that. But nevertheless, I think, you know, some of those strategic assets will absolutely go to orbit.

• 30:37Ed Elson?

  Why are they better in orbit than on earth on the ground?

• 30:41Speaker 09

  Well, from a national security standpoint, it's, you know, about the best air gap you can get. It's pretty hard to tickle with a data sender in orbit, that's for sure, rather than in a corn paddock.

• 30:52Ed Elson?

  What are you most excited about in the space industry right now? And we talked about data centers, but what's the thing that makes you most excited when you're working every day at this point?

• 31:03Speaker 09

  Well, for us, it's just, you know, executing on our vision and kind of growing the company step by step and, you know, as we said we were going to do. So, you know, I think, you know, I said earlier that the most exciting thing to be done in space is yet to even be thought of. And let's hope we think of it. But, you know, right now for us, it's just making sure that we have all of those pieces and those elements in place, you know, to ultimately scale and provide services from, you know, from orbit ourselves.

• 31:32Ed Elson?

  Is space exploration one of those things that motivates you? I mean, this is the thing that motivates me as an observer and as a standby. I just want us to get to Mars. I want us to achieve interstellar travel. I want us to do all of these things. Is that a big motivator for you?

• 31:52Speaker 09

  Totally. I mean, and we generally always have an interplanetary mission or a deep space mission in the clean room somewhere. You know, we did the Capstone mission to the moon and the escapade missions to Mars. You know, we have a lot of our components on the surface of Mars right now and exploring the solar system. So it's super exciting. And, you know, for me personally, I really love the interplanetary stuff as well. And, you know, we have our own. You know, private mission to Venus that I'm helping fund within the company.

• 32:24Ed Elson?

  Wow.

• 32:25Speaker 09

  And you know, that mission is, you know, unashamedly going to try and search for life in the clouds of Venus. So, yeah, no, I mean, I'm with you. I mean, I think if you have the capability to, you know, explore the universe and try and unlock some of the secrets of it, it's almost your duty to do so.

• 32:44Ed Elson?

  We'll be right back.

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• 34:27Ed Elson?

  We're back with Peter Beck. Let's get your reactions to what Neil deGrasse Tyson said in this clip.

• 34:32Speaker 13

  And what do you think is the probability of me getting to another planet in my lifetime? Zero. Really? Yeah. You want to know why?

• 34:41Speaker 13

  Yes, please. Yeah, it's just zero. I thought SpaceX, gonna go to Mars. I have an unorthodox view on this, so you don't have to, you don't have to believe me. You know, but my read of history tells me that we only do big, expensive things if there's a geopolitical reason for it, either an economic reason or a defense reason, not just because it's the next thing to do.

• 35:09Ed Elson?

  What do you think? Do you think that we'll eventually get to Mars? Not eventually, do you think we'll be able to get to Mars in our lifetime and your lifetime? Do you think that that is possible?

• 35:19Speaker 09

  Well, it's possible. I mean, technologically, there's no reason for it's not possible. Now, you know, economically or commercially, is it feasible? That's a whole different question. And I think it's, we're in just like a crazy, great time in human history. It's, it's like the two richest people on the planet are plowing all of their resources into space exploration. And, you know, I think that's, I think that's, that's absolutely incredible. And we are, we are incrementing forward within space exploration at a rate that, that we haven't seen since the Apollo missions. So, and it's, and it's not, it's not by governments. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's being funded by folks.

• 36:04Speaker 09

  So, so I think, you know, they're, they're choosing to spend their winnings in, in a very noble way in that sense. So I think, I think, yeah, it's a super exciting time. But, but yeah, I mean, my, my view on kind of interstellar travel for humans is probably differs from, from, from most in the fact that, you know, these fleshy, watery bodies of ours are pretty useless for space travel. So, you know, my, my view is that I think if you want to, to actually explore the, the solar system, then, you know, a human on a piece of silicon is probably the best way to do it.

• 36:46Ed Elson?

  Say more about that. What does that mean? Are we sending AIs into space?

• 36:50Speaker 09

  Well, no, I mean, I think, you know, man, this is gonna, this is gonna set the internet off. But I mean, I, I think the, the, um, you know, the, the ultimate kind of reduction of the human soul will down to, um, you know, solid state, uh, is what will allow us to travel through the solar system. Because unfortunately, everything in the solar system, uh, is measured in millions of years. Um, a human lifespan is measured, uh, you know, in, in like years. So those two things just don't work. And even if you could accelerate to something like the speed of light, um, you know, and you, you know, your, your body has to sit there and absorb multiple Gs for many, many years, uh, which is not fun.

• 37:32Speaker 09

  And then when you get there, the reverse, um, you know, e- everything about it is just not conducive to, you know, moving sacks of flesh and water around. So if you could somehow, uh, divulge that or, you know, down to a piece of silicon, um, then, you know, a piece of silicon can float into space for a few thousand, hundred thousand years and everything's fine. Um, and, you know, the whole time scale just matches the universe's time scale much, much better.

• 37:59Ed Elson?

  So in other words, if we could basically download our brains onto a chip and then send those chips out there, that's gonna be the future of intercell travel? That's how we will potentially discover life on new planets? Am I understanding that correctly?

• 38:15Speaker 09

  That's one way to think about it for sure. Um, and, uh, you know, I'm just being practical about it. I'm not, um, you know, it's, it's, it's like if you need a few thousand years to get somewhere, then, you know, maybe it's best to do it in a different form. And as, as, as AI becomes, you know, more and more prolific, uh, then I think it, it, you know, you, you can stand in front of a, uh, you know, an AI-generated, um, you know, computer person in, in a screen and it's almost indistinguishable from, is that a real person? Was that not a real person? So, you know, I guess, I guess at some point, uh, the question has to be asked is, you know, do, do we, uh, do we just, you know, are we just a meat computer?

• 38:57Speaker 09

  And can, uh, can we, can we just turn that meat computer into some other, other form? But this is getting way off topic, way, way off topic.

• 39:07Ed Elson?

  That's what we're here to do. Because I actually agree with you that that is the way that, I mean, that's the only way that it would make sense if we were to achieve interstellar travel. But I'm sure there are also a lot of people who are listening and thinking this feels very dystopian, sci-fi, scary. I don't like this idea. Why are we turning ourselves into robots? Do you ever think about that at the same time?

• 39:30Speaker 09

  I don't really think about that too much, no. You know, to be honest with you. You know, like I say, I'm just being very practical about it. And, you know, I'm just an engineer solving engineering problems. And, you know, the way to solve that that problem is just not have the ball of water.

• 39:47Ed Elson?

  I get the sense that this is something that really drives you, that we we need to get out there and we need to understand what is actually happening in the universe. Like, it's just crazy how little we know about it. And I I could also imagine that from your position, it's probably kind of frustrating. I mean, certainly frustrating for me that we're moving, it feels as though we're moving, not slowly, but we're never going to know the answers to these questions.

• 40:15Speaker 09

  Oh, my God. You need to need to cheer up a bit, Ed. This is a this is this is a bit grim. No, I'm super excited. I mean, so our Venus mission, for example, you know, if if if we could, like, within the clouds of Venus, there's there's a predicted as a phosphine gas and phosphine gas, we only know, currently, we only know it's it's, you know, it's created by some symbiosis of life. So our Venus mission is to go to the clouds of Venus and and basically we've got a nephlometer in the in the spacecraft and think of it as a a green light, red light for life. Now, imagine if we could go there and get a green light for life in the clouds of Venus.

• 40:56Speaker 09

  Then I think, you know, that that is that is such a massive question to answer for, you know, for for us and as a species in in the universe. It's like, OK, we're not the only life in the universe. Because right now, I mean, we have no scientific evidence to prove that we are not the only life in the entire universe. And now I think that's unlikely, but nevertheless. That is the scientific fact. So imagine, you know, in our lifetime, I think we will prove, um, whether it's Rocket Lab or somebody else will prove that, um, there is life, uh, outside Earth. And, uh, whether there has been in the past or there is now. And I think that's, um, that is like one of the largest and most important questions we can ask and answer is,

• 41:38Speaker 09

  is, is, is a human species is like, are we unique or are we not? And if we're unique, then I think we better, we better, you know, better pull our resources and think about it a little bit, bit harder. And, you know, if we're not unique, then, um, then it's equally as fascinating. So, you know, I think, um, you know, I think, I think these, these are super exciting and super important questions to answer. And I, I honestly believe that will be answered in my lifetime for sure.

• 42:04Ed Elson?

  Really? You think that we'll, we'll know the answer to aliens in our lifetime?

• 42:08Speaker 09

  Well, I mean, aliens, but, uh, you know, life, are we the only, are we, is life unique? I mean, right now, sitting on the surface of Mars, are a whole bunch of drilled samples, um, uh, from the rovers that, that are highly likely to contain, um, you know, examples of, of, of ancient life. Uh, we just need to go and get them and bring them back. So, uh, no, I think, I think, I think this is, um, this is, this is going to happen in our lifetime.

• 42:34Ed Elson?

  What is the rate of progress that we're seeing right now? Because, I mean, if it's exponential, then it seems that there's higher and higher probability that we'll know the answers to these questions. As someone who's sort of building on the frontier, like, how fast is the pace of progress that we're seeing in the space industry right now?

• 42:52Speaker 09

  Crazy fast, crazy fast. Yeah, no, it's, it, it is, you know, the flywheel is spinning.

• 42:58Ed Elson?

  And is that because of the amount of money that is being invested into the industry? Like what, what, what sort of changed for the industry?

• 43:05Speaker 09

  It's kind of a combination of so many things, right? It's, it's, uh, yes, like, capital, uh, allocation is super important to do anything. But also, um, you know, you can't, uh, capital allocation doesn't come if there isn't results, as you pointed out before. And, uh, it doesn't, it doesn't come if, if there isn't execution. And, um, you know, there's, there's at least a few of us in the industry that are, Are driving those two metrics well. And, um, you know, I think, I think as long as those two things, you know, continue to, continue to occur, then everything will snowball. And let's not forget, like, you know, the access to, uh, access to compute and, um, uh, all of those things that what, you know, that were typically a nation state, um, you know, had access to.

• 43:50Speaker 09

  Uh, now, uh, commercial companies or even people at home have access to. Um, so, you know, I think there's been a democratization of the tools, um, as well, um, as the industry.

• 44:01Ed Elson?

  Something that was also seemed like a big moment for the space industry was the Osmos 2 mission, which splashed down successfully April 10th. Um, to what extent does like popular understanding of space drive progress? Like, to what extent did, did that matter for a company like yours? The fact that everyone was seemingly watching this space-related event at the same time, does that matter for you guys?

• 44:28Speaker 09

  Of course, of course. I mean, um, uh, you know, if, if people are excited and interested in space, um, then now they can own a piece of it. So, uh, of course it's important. And, um, and I, and I think, look, it's, it's, it's a natural human thing to want to explore. I mean, we, we, we are explorers as a species, right? Like we, the first thing we did is, is, you know, get on, design, develop and build boats and, and went, went off. And we're doing the same with spacecraft. So, um, and I, and I think people have a natural curiosity and, and it's just so cool as well. Like, I mean, going and orbiting the moon and, and, you know, the challenges and the, the, the, the resources that takes.

• 45:12Speaker 09

  It's just, it's just super impressive and super cool. And, and that's the one thing about, you know, the space industry is, is, um, you know, although it might be companies or countries doing stuff like, as, as humans, we can all share in the success. I mean, you can go to anywhere in the world and it, you know, ask everybody and, and they'll say, we went and we landed on the moon. It's not, you know, Buzz and Neil went to the moon. It's, it's, it's a collective human, we went to the moon. Aren't we amazing? So, and I think, I think that's the thing that space can do is, is, is when you do these amazing feats, it's, it's, um, it, you know, it's a whole human, uh, engagement.

• 45:53Ed Elson?

  What would you say is the biggest misconception about the space industry right now? Something everyone believes, but that you believe isn't quite right or quite accurate?

• 46:04Speaker 09

  Wow, I mean, so the great thing and the bad thing about the space industry. The great thing about the space industry is someone can can stand up and make the most absurd claims. And because it's so difficult to understand and so difficult to kind of cross-reference and check, everybody just applauds and this is great. That has a great outcome and also, you know, a negative outcome. The great outcome is, of course, is you have huge excitement and ambition and all the rest of it. And the downside is that, you know, you have seen a lot of capital allocated to projects that just made no sense. And, you know, maybe, you know, they learn something along the way.

• 46:47Speaker 09

  But, you know, that's the one thing that frustrates me sometimes is you'll see, you know, companies, you know, promote the most absurd thing, raise a whole bunch of money and then die. And, you know, maybe, maybe that's a national revolution of something new. But, but that is, that is both the exciting and great thing about the space industry, but also, you know, the challenge is that it's so difficult to understand and really, really, you know, diligence that you can, you know, a lot of folks have got away with saying some pretty dumb stuff and have not been able to execute against it.

• 47:25Ed Elson?

  What would you say is the most important problem that needs to be solved now for the space industry if we want to continue progressing, continue to understand the universe? Which problem is maybe the most difficult, but the most important that we need to solve?

• 47:39Speaker 09

  The kind of cop-out answer to that is launch, because, you know, launcher is the access to space. If you don't have launch, everything else is irrelevant. But, you know, honestly, you know, between us and others, launch is becoming well, well, well, kind of under control. But I would, I would say more generally, it's scale. So, you know, when we, when we started and when we, you know, went to go and build our first satellite. We we thought, okay, we'll go and we'll go and buy some reaction wheels. And we went and bought some, tried to buy some reaction wheels. And it was it was like nine months wait. I'm like, I haven't got nine months to wait for a reaction. Well, this is nuts.

• 48:19Speaker 09

  Um, and and, you know, we we look around and there's just nobody makes any reaction wheels at scale. So, you know, that that started really our our vertical integration um strategy. And and we ended up buying the best reaction wheel company. And they used to make a hundred and fifty reaction wheels a year. Um, we make thousands a quarter now. So um so, you know, the space industry is is really defined by, you know, a bunch of man pass shops who build the most exquisite and amazing hardware, but all at subscale. And when you turn up and say, I want a hundred of these, you just watch their heads explode in real time.

• 49:01Speaker 09

  So, um, you know, that's the the one thing that we've really focused on is is trying to bring scale to the industry. And, you know, we're the largest space grade solar cell manufacturers in the world now. And and and, you know, same with with small launch and and a bunch of components. We're we're the largest, if not one of the largest, you know, scaled providers in the world. And, you know, that that that's what's required because, um, you know, if if someone turns up and and wants to build a constellation of a few thousand spacecraft, uh, then if unless you have those those scaled kind of industries behind it, then nobody can get it done.

• 49:39Ed Elson?

  I'm sure there are people who listen to this podcast who are interested in space. And certainly a lot of young people who might want to work in the space industry, start a career, maybe even start a company in the space industry. What would be your advice to those people who are interested in this industry, but probably don't really know where to start?

• 49:59Speaker 09

  Congratulations because you're in the most exciting time in the space industry right now. I mean, when I was growing up, I just used to think it totally sucked that I wasn't born in the Apollo era because I believed that the Apollo era was like the heyday of all space. And certainly it's a great time, but I would argue that right now is way more exciting. I mean, look, you're talking to a guy who was born at the very bottom of the South Island of New Zealand, in the middle of nowhere, running a giant space company. So, you know, if that's possible, anything's possible. And, you know, if you want to work in the space industry, rocketlabcareers.com please. But, you know, there's

• 50:43Speaker 09

  infinite opportunities for you. And likewise, to do a startup. And if you're going to do a startup, my advice there is don't get wound up in building cool tech. So many space companies get enamored with the technology and then try and find a market for it. It's like, no, go and find a big problem within the space industry that everybody's struggling around and go and solve that problem.

• 51:06Ed Elson?

  Peter Beck is the founder, president and chief executive officer of Rocket Labs. Since founding the company in 2006, he has transformed it into a global leader in developing and launching advanced rockets, satellites and spacecraft. He has served on Rocket Labs' board of directors and as its president and CEO since July 2013, and was appointed chairman of the board in May 2021. Peter, really appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

• 51:31Speaker 09

  Thanks, Ed. Great chatting.

• 51:37Ed Elson?

  This episode was produced by Alison Weiss and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our research associates are Dan Shalhan and Kristin O'Donoghue, and our senior producer is Claire Miller. Thank you for listening to the Prof G Markets Founder Series. We'll see you next month with another founder story.

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