“AI Compute Futures” — Has Wall Street Gone Too Far?

Ed Elson is joined by Rohan Goswami to break down the CME’s move to offer AI compute futures such that computing power can be traded like a commodity. Then, Mark Zandi returns to unpack the latest inflation data from the consumer price index. Finally, Ed shares his thoughts on what the recent high profile departures from OpenAI mean for the markets. Rohan Goswami is a business reporter at Semafor and the co-host of Compound Interest. Mark Zandi is the chief economist at Moody’s Analytics. Subscribe to the Prof G Markets Youtube Channel Check out our latest Prof G Markets newsletter Follow Prof G Markets on Instagram Follow Ed on Instagram, X and Substack Follow Scott on Instagram Send us your questions or comments by emailing [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 2:15Ed Elson?

  Welcome to Prof G Markets. I'm Ed Elson. It is August 13th. Let's check in on yesterday's market vitals. The S and P 500 climbed toward a fresh record following the latest inflation report. More on that in a moment on Calci. The odds of a rate hike this year fell to 54%. Meanwhile, the Dow was roughly flat. Brent crude was relatively stable, as was the yield on 10-year treasuries. Core weave shares rallied 19% after doubling its second quarter revenue. And finally, SpaceX shares rose 10% after Elon Musk posted a recording of a company all hands on X. In the meeting, Elon told employees that AI revenue will exceed all other SpaceX revenues by next month.

• 3:01Ed Elson?

  Okay. What else is happening? Wall Street will soon be trading AI computing power like a commodity. The CME, one of the world's largest futures and options exchanges, announced yesterday that it will start launching compute futures in October. Each contract will represent one month's rent on an Nvidia chip. The idea, in the CME's words, is to turn computing power into a quote standardized tradable commodity. This could give data center providers and AI companies both price transparency and the ability to hedge against swings in the cost of compute. But it all rests on two big questions. Number one, is compute actually a commodity? And number two, should we actually be trading it?

• 3:45Ed Elson?

  Here to break this down, we're speaking with Rohan Goswami, business reporter at Semaphore. Rohan, this is the new future of AI. We're financializing it. We're turning it into a commodity. That's the new plan from the CME. What is your reaction to this? Does this make sense to you?

• 4:04Rohan Goswami?

  Look, we, we wrote a story a few months ago, right? This is not a new thing, actually. This has been in the works for some time. Larry Fink made an oblique reference to it at, at Milken, right? Earlier this year, that compute was going to become a financialized resource. And you quickly saw a couple of data providers actually step up to try and create the infrastructure for the CME and for ICE to actually offer these as, as products. I think they like to say that it's like oil or it's like, like electricity. It's scarce. It's hard to transport. It's sort of diffuse. I don't know that I fully agree with that if only because oil is not something, oil is actually finite, right? And so the idea that, that, that this is one to one with oil falls apart there a little bit.

• 4:47Rohan Goswami?

  And it's also, again, I know you and Ed Zatron have talked about this a lot. I know you've written about this a lot. It really boils down to what one player decides to do, and that's Nvidia, right? If you think about the forward curve of an asset, you can basically, and, and for those who don't really understand that, that's the idea of like what direction, uh, month by month, a commodity will trade in. So they can go up, they can go down, right? And, and if they go down, that's basically suggesting that in the future, things will become cheaper. So theoretically, you'd want to see a downward trending forward curve with compute futures, right? This is logical as more chips make it to the marketplace. It becomes cheaper and easier for people to actually get their hands on compute. Of course, this isn't actually a free marketplace. It's entirely up to Nvidia, right?

• 5:30Rohan Goswami?

  The maker of these chips to actually determine the prices. And they are, one could argue, disincented from creating a world where there is A, price transparency, right? They don't actually want people to know how much this costs. And B, uh, from actually making things cheaper because theoretically, as the cost of compute goes down, their chips become less valuable. Of course, there's more nuance to that. And I'm not, you know, certainly not you or Ed Zatron level verse in this, but there are some sort of competing incentives here.

• 5:56Ed Elson?

  Yeah.

• 5:57Rohan Goswami?

  And it also, I think, as you alluded to, raises a broader question, which is do we want to financialize this stuff? Right? I know you talked about this yesterday, but this isn't the only way that Wall Street is starting to dip its toes really aggressively into a space that had kind of before been a closed loop.

• 6:11Ed Elson?

  Right. So we'll get to the Nvidia part in a moment because it's true. Nvidia is such an important piece of this because this first contract that CME is going to release here is going to be on the H100 chip, which is Nvidia's chip. But I just want to linger on the commodity piece of this for a moment. It seems like there is a lot of debate right now as to whether we can actually call AI compute a commodity like oil, like gold, like wheat, all of these commodities that change, that trade on the CME. And, and it seems like one of the big issues is this idea that it isn't fungible. It isn't an identical commodity wherever you go because there are different types of chips. Chips can depreciate over time.

• 6:56Ed Elson?

  You know, one generation of chip might be worse and older and less sophisticated than another. To what extent do you think that is a problem? Or is that something that the exchanges can just figure out?

• 7:09Rohan Goswami?

  These changes to a degree have kind of figured it out. If you're thinking about units of measurement for whatever it is, hot rolled steel is probably a good example, right? Not all steel is created equal. Some steel is crappy, some steel is good, but generally we've agreed to come together and, and say, okay, as an index and as a forward curve of a commodity, it is a essentially monolithic thing. And very few, if any, CME customers are taking custody of physical commodities, right? So I think the fungibility or the tangibility of it is less of an issue. And I think, look, there's actually real utility, as you pointed out, for hyperscalers or even for frontier labs. If they know that demand is going to ramp up over time or they want to manage their downside, there are actual end users here.

• 7:52Rohan Goswami?

  But I think that like broadly speaking, the comparison, again, like I hate to keep coming back to this, but it is not ever, in my opinion, going to be a real market because it would be as, it would be analogous to standard oil, right? If there was one company that basically controlled in its entirety, the flow of oil. Now you could argue that, of course, the, the, the OPEC countries kind of functionally do that, but there are a lot of countries that are not part of OPEC and don't engage in that, right? But here, there's no other game in town except for Nvidia, right? So if Nvidia's stated mission is to make chips less scarce, to bring more chips into the ecosystem, you're depending on them basically to set the price, uh, not just now, but down the road of this asset.

• 8:33Ed Elson?

  Yes. And it's so, it seems that it's, this all relates to Nvidia and more specifically to this $500 billion memorandum of understanding financing package that they announced with the Avengers of Wall Street, KKR, Blackstone, BlackRock, Goldman, et cetera. It seems as though this is the first step to legitimize AI compute, specifically Nvidia compute as a commodity that can be used as collateral to raise hundreds of billions, perhaps trillions of dollars of debt. Is that the gist of what's going on here?

• 9:12Rohan Goswami?

  I think there's a fair read there, but I also think it's kind of, it's a risk spreading mechanism, right? If you think about the deals that Nvidia has cut or said it will cut, right? Recall the $100 billion, again, memorandum, memorandum of understanding, they signed with OpenAI. I don't even remember when that was, right? This has all been concentrated in this multi-trillion dollar juggernaut that is basically lending its balance sheet to companies that don't have credit ratings. Anthropic, OpenAI, Frontier Labs, hyperscalers, they're stepping in and they're saying, look, we are good for the money. Go ahead and buy our stuff. Now, if you are an Nvidia shareholder, if you are a Nvidia bondholder, if you are the US government, frankly, that at some point starts to make you really uncomfortable that all this risk is lying and is concentrated with one entity that is incented to behave like a monopoly, right?

• 9:57Rohan Goswami?

  If you think about what Nvidia is doing, they're subsidizing their chips at the expense of any potential new entrant and trapping these labs inside of their ecosystem. Now this is functionally doing the same thing because of course Nvidia isn't bringing all these guys together to go buy chips from a competitor, but it is at least spreading the financial risk around, but also the financial upside, right? If you think about. What it does for Goldman or KKR or Blackstone, it provides them exposure to this play without actually having to invest directly in this play. You are essentially wrapping the risk around Nvidia's diligence, around their ability to design these fabs. If you are bullish about this space, it's great. You are partnering with someone who knows what they're doing and all you're doing is being good for the money.

• 10:39Ed Elson?

  Looking at this memorandum of understanding, whatever we want to call it, the $500 billion.

• 10:44Rohan Goswami?

  Memorandums of understanding.

• 10:45Ed Elson?

  Memorandums.

• 10:46Rohan Goswami?

  As several have pointed out, it is not one cohesive vehicle. These are one-off vehicles that we don't really yet have much clarity on, but yeah, sorry.

• 10:53Ed Elson?

  Yes. No, that is helpful clarification. Jensen Huang has said that this should assuage concerns about circular financing. The circular financing concerns, of course, being that these companies are kind of investing money into each other and then those companies pay the money back to them, which then the original company books as revenue and then we think that the whole economy is growing, but really the money is being recycled. This has been discussed a lot on this podcast. Jensen Huang says that this should make those concerns less of a concern or put them to bed.

• 11:27Rohan Goswami?

  Yeah.

• 11:28Ed Elson?

  Does it? Should this? What do you think?

• 11:32Rohan Goswami?

  I mean, I think, look, as the public markets and the private markets have started to look increasingly similar, so too have the risks associated in the public markets. And if you look at the S and P 500, I don't know off the top of my head what percentage gains have been propelled by Nvidia at any sort of AI adjacent trade, but it is completely fair to say that you are either an AI have or have not, and the have-nots go like this right now, and the haves generally, lumpily, go like this, right? So, and the same is true in the private markets. If you look at the sales that are getting, the real sales, not the private-to-private stuff, it is stuff in and around AI. It is cooling systems. It is energy. It is land. It is actual data centers, right? Everything is in AI trade. And so at the end of the day, just because more people are financing it, it doesn't change

• 12:16Rohan Goswami?

  the key man risk. I think about like, there was a company in the late 90s, right, that very famously went bankrupt later on, or was rather acquired, Lucet, right, which had a massive backlog of orders totaling into the tens of billions of dollars. And they said, there's no need for anyone to be worried here. We are financing these things. We are helping people with these things. We are going to help our customers get here. Of course, there's demand, right? Well, of course, the dot com bubble burst, all their customers went bankrupt and Lucet was left with this theoretical backlog of orders that actually amounted to nothing. Shareholders were wiped. It was acquired. It is one of those situations where I look at this and I go, well, there's no really avoiding this risk. Just because there are more players involved, doesn't mean the actual risk has gone down.

• 12:55Ed Elson?

  Yes. Yeah, our research associate, Dan Shlan, pointed me to another late 90s anecdote. He pointed out that Enron actually tried to turn internet bandwidth into a tradable commodity as well.

• 13:09Rohan Goswami?

  Yes.

• 13:09Ed Elson?

  Seemed like a good idea. Then we overbuilt the fiber optic cable and then suddenly the capacity flooded the market, the prices collapsed, and then suddenly it looked like a very bad idea. Is that a good analogy?

• 13:23Rohan Goswami?

  In fairness to Enron, Enron actually did build a very pioneering energy trading desk that was acquired, I can't remember by whom, maybe it was Citadel or another firm, but an incredibly lucrative desk that actually formed the bedrock of a lot of sort of commodities trading in that space generally. But to return to compute futures, I honestly, I don't know. I think at least with internet bandwidth, everyone was using this. This was something that everyone touched. You could see a market emerging forward at some point, right? But if you are fundamentally bearish on this space and think everything is going to zero, it's not like the internet where at some point, there will be enough human beings to satiate this demand. If you think this is a dud, if you think this is going to zero, which some people do, and you think it's very circular, then, then

• 14:05Rohan Goswami?

  yes, the comparison is apt in that it's fraudulent, but it's not an apt comparison in that it's not going to go in.

• 14:10Ed Elson?

  Yes. All right. Very helpful, very clarifying. Rohan Gasswamy is business reporter at Semaphore. Appreciate your time. Thank you.

• 14:20Rohan Goswami?

  Appreciate it as always, Ed.

• 14:22Ed Elson?

  After the break, an update on inflation. And by the way, starting Monday, this show is taking a summer break for the next two weeks. We will be back on August 31st with a fresh episode. We'll see you there.

• 14:43Speaker 00

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• 16:47Ed Elson?

  We're back with Prof you markets. Inflation cooled slightly in July, but it remains stubbornly above the Fed's 2% target. The Consumer Price Index rose 3.4% from a year ago and core CPI, which excludes food and energy, rose 2.5%. Both were down a tenth of a percentage point from the growth that we saw in June. Gasoline prices fell from a month ago but remain 25% higher than they were last year. Meanwhile, prices continue to outpace wages, leaving consumers with less buying power than they had a year ago. Still, stock prices rose on the report and government bond yields retreated. Joining us to break down this inflation report was

• 17:32Ed Elson?

  speaking with Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Analytics. Mark, it's good to see you. I was surprised by this report. I had predicted earlier, I thought that inflation was going to rise from, from the previous month. I mean, it rose 3.4% from the year ago, but I thought that we'd see higher growth than we did. That's not what we saw. We saw a little bit lower, kind of in line. What do you make of this report and what does it say about where we're headed in terms of inflation?

• 18:01Mark Zandi?

  Well, it was very consistent with consensus. So, you know, economists that look at this stuff get surveyed, they, various sources put together a kind of an average of those forecasts, and this was kind of right down the line, you know, right exactly where we anticipated. You know, taking the monthly inflation numbers at face value, I'd say pretty benign. You know, I think if we continue to get that kind of, these kinds of reads, that's a, that's a good sign. A lot depends on what happens with the Iran war and where oil and gasoline prices are going, and they're already up from where they were in July. So, you know, that augurs poorly for the month of August. And inflation remains, as you

• 18:43Mark Zandi?

  point out, stubbornly high and well above the Fed's target. But I'll take it. You know, Ed, look, you know, we got to start somewhere. Hopefully this month, last month, take it together and we get a few, string a few more good months together. That, that will indicate that inflation is moving in the right direction.

• 18:58Ed Elson?

  On gas prices, they are down, they were down very slightly from June. June was not great in, in terms of gas prices, but it seems that they're rising again. When we look at the price of oil right now, which just a couple of days ago breached $90 a barrel again, because it seems that, I mean, we, we thought that we had a deal last week. I mean, I feel like a broken record here. We keep on saying there's a deal and there isn't a deal. We had the same thing last week. Oil prices were coming down and then it didn't materialize. Then I guess traders sort of realized, okay, there isn't a deal.

• 19:40Ed Elson?

  The Iran situation remains very uncertain. How important is oil in terms of inflation going forward? And do you predict that it might get worse?

• 19:53Mark Zandi?

  Well, it's critical. Obviously, I mean, gas prices, going back to food, a lot of that is based on the cost of diesel because you have to transport the food from the seaport or the farm to the store shelf. You know, the price of oil flows through to all kinds of other, prices of other goods. So it's really critical and it has an outsized role in the kind of the collective thinking of Americans because that's the salient price. They see that price every day when they go to work, when they take their kids to school. So when gasoline, oil and gasoline prices are moving north, that makes everyone, you know, understandably upset. Very difficult to change your driving behavior to adjust. So it's not great. You know, it looked like, as you said, it looked like the war was going

• 20:35Mark Zandi?

  to wind down in July. We got some oil flowing through the strait. Oil prices got back down. We got gasoline below four bucks a gallon, which, you know, just for context, it was below $3 a gallon before the war started up. But it's pushed back up. We're now back at $4.10, $4.15, and if that's where we stay, you know, okay, it's a hardship, but we'll adjust, we'll live with it. But you know, if the war goes off the rails and the strait doesn't reopen at some point here in the next few weeks, next couple of months, and inventories of oil globally continue to wind down, at some point, prices are going to jump and we're going to be looking back at $4.55, and that'll be a real problem. So I don't think we can, you know, it's very difficult to, we can't forecast it because

• 21:18Mark Zandi?

  obviously it depends on, you know, these dynamics, they're impossible to gauge. But, you know, hopefully the parties involved find, figure out a way to, you know, end this thing, get the strait open, get oil prices down. If they don't, and oil prices go up, then, then as I said, we got a problem.

• 21:34Ed Elson?

  You mentioned earlier how prices are rising faster than wages, and that seems to me to be like the most important statistic when it comes to the consumer economy. Like, is

• 21:45Ed Elson?

  Is inflation eating into your buying power or making your buying power and spending power go down? Currently, the answer is yes, and the answer has been yes for quite some time now in 2026. What does this mean for one consumer spending, but also just the consumer economy going forward? Do you think that this is a trend that will continue?

• 22:08Mark Zandi?

  Yeah, totally. This is a big, big deal. You know, even it's even broader than just wages. So if you look at real, so that's after inflation, disposable after tax, so accounting for the tax cuts earlier in the year, income. So again, that's the shooting match for that's the fodder, the financial fodder for spending. That's actually falling. It's declining on a year over year basis through the second quarter and coming into the third quarter. And, you know, obviously with these inflation statistics and prospects for higher gasoline prices, that looks like it's going to continue. Wage growth continues to decelerate because of the tough labor market. So, you know, and that's, that's the average, right? So that means half of Americans are seeing their real income, their real purchasing power actually decline.

• 22:51Mark Zandi?

  Now, they can cushion the effect on their spending for a while, and you've seen that in the drawdown in their saving. People's saving rate, overall saving rate has come way in. It's not at a record low. It got, it got lower during the housing bubble, you know, leading up to that, to the GFC, the global financial crisis. But other than that, this is the lowest saving rate we've ever seen. So we're kind of right on the edge for the consumer, the typical consumer, not the high end net worth consumer, because they've got other financial resources. But for the typical American, and certainly for the folks in the bottom half below the average, you know, this is, this is, this can't be sustained for very long and consumer spending will slow. Now, one thing, just one other quick note, the one thing that is important to keep in

• 23:34Mark Zandi?

  mind, the folks, and we've talked about this in the past, the folks in the top part of the income distribution, the well to do, they drive the train, right? They account for the bulk of spending. So if they kind of hang in there, you know, the economy can kind of struggle through, even if the folks in the bottom two thirds of the distribution of income are struggling, and they certainly are.

• 23:50Ed Elson?

  I don't know if you've seen these comments from Treasury, the Treasury Secretary Scott Besson, but he's said recently, he went on TV and said that he's sick of hearing about the K-shaped economy and said that the K-shaped economy was over. I'm paraphrasing, I believe, but that was the main thrust of his argument, that we're no longer seeing this growing disparity between the rich in America and the poor.

• 24:13Mark Zandi?

  Yeah, I saw that.

• 24:15Ed Elson?

  Is that a lie? What do you make of that?

• 24:17Mark Zandi?

  Well, it's not consistent with the data, you know, and there's a lot of different data here. So that makes it difficult in a debate. There's no smoking gun data point we can point to say, aha, that's what we should all coalesce around. But if you look at the plethora of data and information that's available, I think it's pretty clear that the income, wealth and consumption distribution has gotten more skewed over time. And it's very skewed at this point in time. And just to give you a statistic that strikes it, strikes it home for me, is that folks in the top 20% of the income distribution account for 60% of the spending. So that gives you a sense of the, you know, the skewness that exists in the data.

• 24:57Mark Zandi?

  And, you know, you can see it in, you know, the spending data, you can see it in the consumer sentiment surveys. I mean, you know, even though we don't have a clear cut data point to point to, there's a lot enough other data to suggest that the K-shaped economy is, is in full force and a real problem for the folks in the bottom part of the K.

• 25:17Ed Elson?

  We also got the jobs report last Friday. The US economy lost 23,000 jobs. The participation rate fell to 61.4%. I think that was the lowest number in several years. What do you make of the jobs market right now? What does it say about the overall US economy? And then also, how does it impact the Fed's decision? Because as to balance, of course, inflation, but also the labor market.

• 25:45Mark Zandi?

  Lot of debate here too, but my sense is the job market's struggling. We're not creating any jobs. We've seen that, you know, over the past year, over the past year and a half. The job growth we are getting is in really one big sector of the economy. That's healthcare. Other than that, the net job growth is basically zero. The unemployment rate has come in recently in the last few months, but that's only because of the decline in labor force participation, as you mentioned, a pretty sharp decline. I think there's probably a lot of measurement problems going on there, but it's fundamentally saying that if you lose your job, I think what's going on is that if you lose your job, very difficult to find another because no one's hiring. We know hiring rates are incredibly low.

• 26:28Mark Zandi?

  And so many people become discouraged and just kind of step out of the labor market, at least for a while. And I think that's biasing down the unemployment rate. So just if you do a little bit of arithmetic and you assume that the unemployment rate, excuse me, the labor force participation rate had not changed from where it was a year ago, the unemployment rate would be over 5%. So we would have a very different kind of discussion if that were the case. Inconsistent with that is going back to the wage growth. You don't see wage growth decelerate, certainly to the degree that it has. It's now below the rate of inflation plus productivity growth, unless you've got a pretty tough labor market, one that's struggling. And again, I think that's, that's the case. So as you point out, the Fed's in a pretty tough spot, right? I mean, what do they do? They respond to the weaker economy job market by cutting interest rates?

• 27:12Mark Zandi?

  Doesn't feel like that's what they have in mind. Or do they respond to the high persistent inflation and raise interest rates and take their chances with the job market and the economy? My sense is that they'll probably be able to get through all of this without doing anything, kind of thread the needle, because there's so much uncertainty here, the data's all over the place. But, you know, the data point we got last Friday, the jobs numbers in today's data, the CPI would suggest that they've got a little bit of room to maneuver right down the middle, keep rates unchanged. And I think that's the most likely scenario, although I'm outside, going back to consensus, I'm outside the consensus. The consensus now holds that the Fed will have to raise interest rates to battle inflation at some point later this year into next.

• 27:54Ed Elson?

  Before we let you go, if you had to give the US economy a grade right now, a letter grade, how would you grade it?

• 28:01Mark Zandi?

  You know, I'd give it a C minus. You know, it's growing. We're getting 2% growth, but it's not enough growth to create any jobs and make people feel comfortable about their financial situation. So, you know, it's not a recession. It's not, I don't think we're close to recession, but we're, it's a pretty uncomfortable place, fragile place to be. So I, I say C minus. And I'm a pretty easy grader.

• 28:24Ed Elson?

  Mark Zandier is Chief Economist at Moody's Analytics. Mark, appreciate your time.

• 28:30Mark Zandi?

  Yeah, anytime, Ed.

• 28:35Ed Elson?

  News from OpenAI. Longtime executive and Chief Operating Officer Brad Lightcap is leaving OpenAI after eight years. The COO said he's grateful to have spent most of the last decade building the company, but he is now moving on to, quote, "something new." Now, there's nothing unusual about a long time executive leaving a company. That happens all the time, as you know. What is more unusual, though, is more than 10 executives leaving a company. That doesn't happen very often at all, but it did happen to OpenAI. Yes, in the past few months alone, nearly a dozen leaders at OpenAI have left the company.

• 29:17Ed Elson?

  This week, for example, just one day before the COO announced his departure, OpenAI's Head of Ethics, Chloé Bakalor, also left. And just weeks before she left, OpenAI's Head of Safety Systems, Johannes Heidecker, also departed. That departure was preceded by Chief Futurist Josh Akiam's exit. And just weeks before that, we also saw exits from Bill Peebles, OpenAI's Head of Sora, as well as Kevin Wile, OpenAI's Head of Science. But it doesn't stop there. Srinivas Narayanan, OpenAI's Head of B2B Applications, also left. So did the Head of Robotics, Caitlin Kalanowski, and so did Chief Communications Officer Hannah Wong.

• 30:01Ed Elson?

  All of these people left within the past several months, which begs a pretty important question. Why are they all leaving? Now, to be clear, I don't know, but given the fact that the company keeps continually delaying its IPO, combined with the fact that it keeps on racking up tens of billions of dollars in losses, you have to at least wonder if the leaders of OpenAI are simply losing faith in the company. And if that is true, well, then that is a big problem, because as we've discussed, the market has become increasingly dependent on the survival and the success of OpenAI. Just as a reminder, OpenAI made up 70% of Microsoft's AI sales last year.

• 30:44Ed Elson?

  And alongside Anthropic, it'll make up nearly three quarters of Amazon's AI sales this year. So if the stock market has become a giant bet on AI, and if AI has become a giant bet on OpenAI, then what does everyone bailing on OpenAI say about the stock market? And the answer is probably nothing good. Now, that doesn't mean that you should sell everything. We have never, ever recommended selling, and I doubt that we ever will, to be honest. As we've said over and over, the stock market is a long-term success machine. You're better off riding out the corrections versus trying to time them. But it does mean that we should keep very close tabs on OpenAI.

• 31:24Ed Elson?

  We don't have much transparency into the financials of the company because it's still private. But we do have transparency into the staffing, we know who's joining, and we know who is leaving. And if a company's people are any indication as to how a company is doing, well, then the signs at OpenAI are quite plain to see. It's not going great. Okay, that's it for today. This episode was produced by Claire Miller and Alison Weiss and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our video editor is Brad Williams. Our research team is Dan Chalan, Kristin O'Donoghue and Mia Silverio. And our social producer is Jake McPherson. Thank you for listening to Prof G Markets from Prof G Media. If you liked what you heard, give us a follow. I'm Ed Elson.

• 32:08Ed Elson?

  I will see you tomorrow.

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