Why Tariffs Could Crush Canada’s Economy — ft. Mike Moffatt

Ed and Scott open the show by discussing Apple’s new investment in “American innovation,” Howard Lutnik’s decision to put his sons in charge of Cantor Fitzgerald, and a new Moody’s Analytics report on U. S. consumer spending. Then Mike Moffatt, Founding Director of the University of Ottawa's "Missing Middle Initiative” and former economic adviser to Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau, joins the show to unpack the biggest challenges facing Canada’s economy. He offers insight into the country’s political landscape, breaks down its housing crisis and explains why small businesses struggle to thrive in Canada. Finally, Mike explains how Canadians perceive the Trump administration’s rhetoric and what tariffs could mean for Canada’s economic future. Subscribe to the Prof G Markets newsletter Order "The Algebra of Wealth," out now Subscribe to No Mercy / No Malice Follow the podcast across socials @profgpod: Instagram Threads X Reddit Follow Scott on Instagram Follow Ed on Instagram and X Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them? That's bull spend and marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it it wasn't.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  Payday bars have a bone to pick with the other candy bars. Enough with the toppings and layers and stuff, kay? Payday bars are just salty crunchy peanuts and sweet caramel. Delicious. Payday Peanut Caramel Bar.

• 0:46Speaker 03

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest winner gets an ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer. It's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com slash superior access to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 1:15Scott Galloway?

  Today's number 202,080 kilometers. That's the length of Canada's coastline, the longest in the world. True story. If you're ever wondering what it means when a young woman, a young attractive woman is wearing a Canada goose jacket. It means she's one bad decision away from having an OnlyFans.

• 1:43Ed Elson?

  I don't fully get it. Surely she's rich if she's got the Canada goose now.

• 1:46Scott Galloway?

  I don't get it either, but for some reason it made me smile.

• 1:50Ed Elson?

  Maybe it doesn't matter at all.

• 1:51Scott Galloway?

  I made that one up.

• 1:53Ed Elson?

  Yeah, I can tell.

• 1:54Scott Galloway?

  Doesn't that make sense, though? When you see a hot girl in the Canada Goose jacket, there's like a reasonable chance.

• 1:59Ed Elson?

  Surely you've owned a goose.

• 2:00Scott Galloway?

  Oh, I own several geese. And now I'm Montclair because I'm the rich douchebag. I went, I literally, I hit a new low. I went shopping in Montclair with my kid last week. He's like, I need a ski jacket. I'm like, I'll take it to Montclair. I love the apparel and the fashion in skiing. I just don't like skiing much.

• 2:17Ed Elson?

  Yes, I was trying to imagine you skiing all week. I just can't picture it. That's what you were doing, right? None of us actually really knew where you were or what was going on. You were skiing, right?

• 2:26Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, I was in Zermatt.

• 2:28Ed Elson?

  Any, any takeaways from being it? That's in Switzerland, right?

• 2:31Scott Galloway?

  I am officially done skiing. I've, all I can think about, I get off the lift and all I think about is, this is definitely the run I'm tearing the other ACL. And then going to the hospital, catching pneumonia and dying. And then, you know, I wonder, and I think a lot about my funeral. I, it's, that's just not how I want to go. Pneumonia from the torn ACL from Zermatt.

• 2:48Ed Elson?

  I think it's a pretty cool way to go.

• 2:50Scott Galloway?

  I think skiing is so overrated. Are you a big skier?

• 2:52Ed Elson?

  I love skiing.

• 2:53Scott Galloway?

  Really?

• 2:53Ed Elson?

  Yeah, my favorite thing is, is having lunch in the middle of it. I love that you kind of get up early, you're sort of working out, but it's not that intense. But you feel like you've had this big workout and then you all kind of like get together and have this great big lunch. And then you head home.

• 3:07Scott Galloway?

  I skipped to the lunch part. And one of the wonderful things about European skiing is you'll literally get off the lift and you'll see a plume of smoke and you walk down a hill and you go through this big, you know, this giant wooden door that excited Game of Thrones. And inside are a bunch of Swiss Germans parting and planning to take over Austria. I mean, they're just going crazy. That's, it's a ton of fun.

• 3:28Ed Elson?

  By the way, it's probably crazier in Aspen now.

• 3:30Scott Galloway?

  The ground zero for Douchebag Inc. is this place called Cloud Nine. Have you heard of this place?

• 3:38Ed Elson?

  I've been there, yeah.

• 3:38Scott Galloway?

  So basically it's this place on the mountain and you don't really eat lunch. There's one sitting that's actual lunch. And then the next sitting is they pass out, no joke, trash bags that you wear as armor. And then you buy a nice bottle of champagne and two cheap bottles of champagne for defense. And then they put on crazy music and all these wealthy people with too much money start spraying champagne on each other. And I remember I was there and standing and dancing, which me is shaking my shoulders back and forth to 80s music. And our waitress came over and somebody, this guy next to me, hit her accidentally kind of in the head and she buckled over.

• 4:19Ed Elson?

  Oh, no.

• 4:20Scott Galloway?

  And I mean, no, she was fine, but like lost control of whatever she was bringing us and a bunch of champagne spilled on the hot fondue griddle and this waft of pink champagne went up into her face. And I thought.

• 4:35Ed Elson?

  Oh, God.

• 4:36Scott Galloway?

  I thought this is the Planet of the Apes moment where everyone working behind the counter jumps over, kills all of us.

• 4:45Ed Elson?

  Totally.

• 4:45Scott Galloway?

  And then starts, starts traversing down the mountain, gathering everyone that the point one percent have been abusing for the last 40 years. And it starts the revolution. I, the revolution starts at cloud nine. It is so fucking obnoxious and I am totally down to party and waste money, but I remember thinking, this is so indulgent and stupid. People spraying champagne on each other.

• 5:10Ed Elson?

  We'll talk more about that revolution in this episode. Shall we bust into the headlines? Let's get on it.

• 5:17Speaker 06

  Now is the time to fly. I hope you have plenty of the whale at all.

• 5:24Ed Elson?

  Apple plans to spend more than $500 billion on American innovation over the next four years. The investment will fund the development of a manufacturing facility in Houston, which will build servers to power Apple intelligence. The company has also pledged to create 20,000 new jobs. Following Howard Lutnick's appointment as Secretary of Commerce, his 27 and 28 year old sons will now help lead his investment bank, Cantor Fitzgerald, in his place. Brandon and Kyle Lutnick will take on the roles of chairman and executive vice chairman, respectively, while three longtime executives will share the CEO position. And finally, the top 10% of earners now drive nearly 50% of all consumer spending in the US. That's a record, according

• 6:06Ed Elson?

  to Moody's Analytics, and it's up from 36% three decades ago. Moody's also estimates that the spending from this group alone accounts for almost one third of the nation's GDP. Very timely considering our conversation just now, but let's start with Apple and Apple's plan to spend more than $500 billion on American innovation. This big spending plan, Donald Trump is very happy about it. He posted about it on Truth Social. Scott, your thoughts on this new investment from Apple?

• 6:38Scott Galloway?

  I think Tim Cook is really smart. I think he is saying, okay, for a press release, maybe we spend it, maybe we don't. I don't think Trump cares if he actually spends it or not, but I think what he's trying to do is negotiate some sort of carve out from anything resembling a tariff on Chinese manufactured products where a great deal of Apple products are produced. And I think he said, okay, coordinate with the White House. All they want is a symbolic victory. Call it 500 billion. Maybe it is, maybe it's already spending, we're planning. I see this as a giant fucking yawn. I don't even know if it actually means anything in terms of what they weren't already planning on doing, or their repackaging, or they're saying.

• 7:20Scott Galloway?

  This is literally all chip, no salsa. Your thoughts?

• 7:23Ed Elson?

  100% in agreement. I think the thing you have to understand here is that Apple was going to spend this money anyway. If you look at the company's financials, you look at the OpEx, you look at the CapEx, you look at the guidance, 500 billion over four years is pretty much in line with expectations. In fact, some would say it's actually below expectations. So, yeah, this is not some big, bold, new investment. This is par for the course for Apple. And I think the question is, okay, well, why would you make such a to do about this? And the answer is quite simple. As you say, it's to appease Trump because you have to remember, Apple, of all the big tech companies, is the most reliant on China by far. And they have, all of their supply chains are in China. They also, unlike companies like Google and companies like Meta, they also sell products

• 8:08Ed Elson?

  in China. They're allowed to sell iPhones in China. That's a big market for them. So they can't afford to lose China as a supplier or as a customer. And so they need to figure out a way to protect that. And so this, to me, is like this genius, cost-effective way of doing that. Instead of investing billions in lobbying, or instead of investing even billions in new investments, they're basically just rebranding their pre-existing investment plan, which they were already going to do, but now it's got this pro-America, pro-Trump feel to the whole thing.

• 8:40Scott Galloway?

  If you look at... The big guys, if you look at a Meta, an Alphabet, an Amazon, they're growing somewhere between 10 and 30% a year. Apple is basically flat. I think Apple's total sales this year are up low single digits, but they are a profit cash volcano. And that's what the market values them at. And right now, the, they're kind of their, their P E ratio is, I believe, as of February 24th is about 39, which is higher than its 12 month average of 34. And typically, I think its average over the long term is around 19. So they are, the market values them on profits. Now, the danger of that is that their CapEx as a percentage

• 9:24Scott Galloway?

  of their total top line revenue is actually the lowest in big tech and it's lower than when IBM was at their peak. So the question is, is Apple got so much top line revenue that they just manage their CapEx better and are able to find greater returns? For example, I thought you got to give it to them, their approach to not going down the spending rabbit hole of around AI and just leveraging other people's CapEx and doing something called Apple Intelligence, which was sort of cheap and cheerful. And bad, thus far. Well, it's better than their mixed reality headset. Yeah, fair enough. It'll be interesting to see if their lack of CapEx filter, their competitive set comes back to haunt them. But I own, Amazon and Apple are my biggest holdings.

• 10:05Scott Galloway?

  I'm actually thinking about trimming my Apple holdings because now it's, I think about, what is it? Maybe five or seven percent of my total net worth. I'm thinking of taking it down to 3%. And we've talked about this, rotating into non-US stocks or non-US tech. The problem is, is I bought, it's trading at 240, I think I bought it at 11. So I would take a pretty big. This is crazy to hear that, yeah. But I bought it in 1838. And I bought it, I think about in 2011. Anyways, I wonder about Apple. It's trading at historical high P on any metric. And I also wonder if their. Are they just better at managing their CapEx than everyone else? Or are they eventually, is this going to come back to haunt them in terms of their inability to grow?

• 10:49Ed Elson?

  Yeah, I think that's the big, big question. And there's huge downside potential there. So I'm sort of in support of your move to trim. Let's move on to Cantor Fitzgerald and Howard Lutnick's decision to put his sons in charge of the company. Just some context on how wild this move actually is. You know, you might not have heard of this company because it's a private company. So it doesn't get that much publicity. It doesn't get that much coverage because, you know, you can't trade the stock. But on Wall Street, this is one of the biggest names. This is a huge bank. It employs 14,000 people. They have 60 offices across 20 different countries.

• 11:31Ed Elson?

  And now this, what is essentially a mega corporation on Wall Street. It is now controlled by a 27 year old and his brother, who is 28 years old and who is also a DJ, which is just a funny, but probably important little side note about the new vice chairman of Cantor Fitzgerald. So I think the two questions people are probably asking here is one, how is this even allowed? How is this possible? The answer is Howard Lutnick controls and owns the company. He's certainly the majority shareholder. To the best of my knowledge, he's the only shareholder. But if you look into the ownership and the governance structure, it's actually not very clear. I think it's probably intentionally obscure.

• 12:15Ed Elson?

  But what we do know for sure is he has the power in this company. So he can do whatever he wants. And then the second question I think people are asking is why on earth would he do this? Why would you hand over a multi-billion dollar corporation to your Gen Z children? Who have basically no experience? And I have my own theories about this, but I'd first like to start with your take, Scott. Why is Howard Lutnick, the new commerce secretary, handing this company to his kids?

• 12:47Scott Galloway?

  Because he can. Look, your sons are the only people that you really hope are going to be more successful than you and your daughters. And you, you can trust them or you think you can trust them. You want to see them successful. You think the whole world underappreciates. You think they're capable of great things. So it's just a natural instinct to want to advantage your sons and you know theoretically or your daughters, you know theoretically that that's probably not good for them, but you just can't help it. And this happens everywhere. The R. No. Kid is, I think, was the head of Ramoa and is now got a big job at LVMH and at some point will probably be the CEO. It's no accident that the last several publishers, the New York Times Company had the last name Sulzberger, was Arthur Sulzberger. Would Arthur Sulzberger, was

• 13:32Scott Galloway?

  he a good publisher? Yeah, I think he was. Was there any fucking way he'd be published in the New York Times if his last name wasn't Sulzberger? No. This nepotism infects all sorts of companies and private companies, it's a little bit easier to pull off than public companies. But the New York Times Company, an incredibly important company, is riddled. I used to go to New York Times board meetings and there, I'm not exaggerating, there was a cousin on the board and his official job was submarine explorer. He had built a submarine to explore the seas. And I said, well, tell me about that. And he's like, well, I've never actually been in it. I'm like, why? It's like, you know, I'm like, because you wouldn't get in a vessel that you've built. It's obviously, this is stupid.

• 14:14Scott Galloway?

  He used to show up to board meetings in a Tommy Bahamas shirt and fall asleep. Every board meeting. Literally Roman Roy. So it's almost like a tax that shareholders pay recognizing that, you know, people want their kids to be successful. And also sometimes the kids are outstanding. Herb Allen at Allen and Co. brought in his son, Herb Allen III, and he's outstanding. He's great at what he does. I don't know if he's still running the firm. You, on a regular basis, you get really good cousins, nephews, whoever, that are outstanding at running the company. This is striking for a couple of reasons. One, they're youth. It's just unlikely they're the most talented people. You can't even pretend this isn't nepotism, but at the end

• 14:56Scott Galloway?

  of the day, if he controls the firm, he gets to do this. Now, if their clients and their employees start leaving en masse, he'll probably decide to make a change. We also don't know if this is just symbolic, where he said to all the key people in the firm, wink, wink, I just want to keep the governance within the family. I'm gonna have a succession strategy. I know this seems like bullshit, but you're really in charge of this. You're really in charge of this. I don't know what's going on internally, but this happens more often than you think. And generally, the only arbiter or the only governor, I mean, keep in mind, we have nations where they have royalty. Where, okay, you're the king because you're the son of this person.

• 15:37Ed Elson?

  But what happened to royalty? We got rid of it because it didn't work. We looked through all of world history. I mean, humans clearly love hereditary succession, but what we have found is that it's just a bad model. It's unstable as a form of governance. And I'll just, on this point, from a shareholder perspective, if you look at corporate history and having family succession plans, there is this, there's this study that we found that looked at all of the family owned businesses through history and it found that when you pass control on to the child, on average, financial performance declines. I think it's like a 5% drop in operating profitability. Another study found that family CEOs work, this is no surprise, on average,

• 16:22Ed Elson?

  family CEOs work 9% fewer hours than other regular CEOs. And another study found that family CEOs are held less accountable to their financial performance than regular CEOs. I don't think any of this is surprising, but I think the takeaway for me with these succession plans is it's almost never a good idea. One point that I, in which I think this is different and which kind of explains this is I think that this is Howard's way of not letting go of the company while he's serving in office. So he gives it to his kids and he'll still sort of de facto run the company. All he needs to do is give them a phone call, tell them the instructions. They say, yes, sir, yes, dad.

• 17:06Ed Elson?

  They execute and he's still pretty much running the company that way.

• 17:10Scott Galloway?

  There's another family doing that. I'm trying to think of who that is, another family that has a bunch of fucking idiot sons running his business while he's in government.

• 17:18Ed Elson?

  I mean, he's, he's learning from his master. So I would predict that by the time he's done with Commerce Secretary, when he's out of office, my prediction, he's going to return to the company and reinstate himself as chairman. And it'll basically be like he never left. Final headline, this new data from Moody's. The top 10% of earners in America now accounting for 50% of all consumer spending. That's up from 36% in 1995. This is basically just another signal of how bad the inequality in America is really getting. Scott, you know, you've done a lot of work on this. You've done a lot of research on this. What are your initial reactions to this new data?

• 18:00Scott Galloway?

  I actually read it differently in the sense that, okay, so we know what it means. We know that the top decile are killing it and continue to have more money to invest and spend. But my understanding is the top 10% control 90 plus percent of the assets. And if they're responsible for half the consumer economy, it means they're actually, and because they can, they're saving and investing a lot more than the bottom 90, right? As a percentage of their income. And what would that mean? That would mean that luxury brands would do really well. High end travel would do really well. And for me, it's an argument for a more progressive tax structure where we put more money in the pockets of the bottom 90. Because the wonderful thing about the lower and the middle classes is that distinct to the moral argument of putting more money in their pockets.

• 18:44Scott Galloway?

  When you give them a dollar, they spend it. And there's a much greater multiplier. It's much more stimulative than when you put a dollar in the pocket. The Republicans have done a great job of convincing people that a dollar put in the hands of our most efficient, or most productive is what they refer to of rich people, is that they invest it and grow the economy. And you do need some of that. You do need capital and people who invest and save and take risks. But we're not, we're not, we're long on risk capital. What we're short on is people who have money to spend and grow in the economy. And I think this is another example, as you said, of income inequality. But we're seeing essentially they're not spending nearly as much money as they have. And again, it's just another argument for more progressive tax structure.

• 19:29Ed Elson?

  Yeah, we know what the wealth inequality looks like in America. As you said, the top 10% earning 90 plus percent of the assets. But finally, we're seeing even despite the fact that the wealthy are actually underspending and they're hoarding, they are still driving the real economy. And we're now having half of actual transactions in America are being made by.

• 19:54Ed Elson?

  The top 10%. So I think it's sort of this double whammy. It's now transitioning into a new thing where, you know, in addition to controlling all of the assets, they now control the real economy itself. And, you know, we were discussing like, what are the second order effects of this? I think just to list them off right now, I think the first thing you'll see is just reduced social mobility. You're going to see more economic instability. So you're going to see more debt accumulation, more inflation, higher likelihood of these financial crisis events. And you see lower social cohesion, which we're already seeing less trust among your citizenry. And then I think the other thing is that we always see across every unequal society in history is you're going to see

• 20:36Ed Elson?

  more crime. And our crime rates go way up with, you know, general distrust and dissatisfaction with the state of affairs in this country. So our team kind of got together and we spitballed, okay, well, what is a good investment in that society? If that's where we're headed, where do you invest?

• 20:54Scott Galloway?

  Bunkers.

• 20:54Ed Elson?

  Exactly. So, you know, just some kind of random ideas we threw out there, private security. I think we'll see more private healthcare, more investment in elite healthcare that services the rich. And then one thing that you've mentioned, which I agree with, luxury real estate. So more homes in Aspen, more homes in Palm Beach, more homes in the Hamptons. You know, I think we'll start to see these more and more of these siphoned off private bunker communities. I guess at a certain point, this conversation becomes ridiculous because I'm essentially describing a dystopia and asking questions about how to invest in that dystopia. And I think, by the way, a lot of investors are having this conversation. So I guess my final question before we move on to our conversation with

• 21:35Ed Elson?

  Mike is, you know, at what point do we throw in the towel and say, okay, none of this is worth it? Like, why are we discussing investing in this world that we don't want to live in? At what point do we decide, okay, instead of playing along with these trends and investing in these trends, we have to reverse them? Like, what is the tipping point? At what point do you think that moment actually comes in America?

• 22:01Scott Galloway?

  It's a really good question, Ed, because unfortunately, unless you have, I think, a key cohort in history has been class traders.

• 22:10Scott Galloway?

  And that is when Teddy Roosevelt was elected by the railroad barons, he immediately got into the White House and said, now I'm, thanks so much, I'm breaking you up. And they thought, wow, what a traitor, a turncoat. We put this guy in office now. He's breaking us up. And I think that where we really need some class traders is among the point one or the 1%. And that is, I think there's this unholy bargain between Trump and the Democratic Party and the 0.1%. And that is, okay, at dinner parties, you talk about income inequality, but you're not really willing to go aggressively. You'll still show up at his inauguration and be paraded around like some little bitch, because under

• 22:54Scott Galloway?

  the auspices of shareholder value, you decide to totally ignore American values. And if the, and the reason why rich people are only giving kind of symbolic resistance here is because, guess what, folks? We're getting richer and richer. And here's the thing about rights. Everyone I know that I care about is going to have rights. If things, if shit ever gets real, I'll have the money and the liquidity and the Bitcoin or whatever it is I'll need to peace out to Dubai, or Tel Aviv, or Singapore, or wherever I need to go. If anybody I know becomes the target of some weird right winger, I can lawyer up

• 23:36Scott Galloway?

  like no fucking tomorrow and then move to a country that doesn't have extradition treaties. I just, money has now bought people rights. So when I'm in, or rich people are in, a beast of the summer, partying on yachts, and there's people, there's oligarchs from Russia, there's kids from the Gulf, and there's tech bros. Everyone gets along and is civil with each other and talks about what a shame it is, but no one's actually really willing to get aggressive with their platform and speak up, because here's the bottom line. Our rights are portable. And for all the moaning, the fact, the unholy alliance here is Trump. And along with the Democratic Party has said, even though there's a slow burn towards income inequality, and now this escalation towards fascism, wink, wink, I'll make sure the rich are just fine. Guess what? Jeff Bezos, when you're on your

• 24:20Scott Galloway?

  deathbed, you're not going to remember being worth 120 billion or 90 billion. You're going to remember what a fucking infidel you were to the American values that made you worth 120 billion dollars. And I find this domino theory of cowardice amongst the rich is so incredibly disappointing, because at the end of the day, they have opted for their wealth, and they have the comfort of knowing that rights are a function of wealth. And to a certain extent, for them, for the rich, it really doesn't matter what happens in America. Because as long as there's a place they can go and have an amazing life and buy their rights, which they can in any number of countries, rich people are always welcome somewhere. There will always be a country that says, come one, come all. If

• 25:05Scott Galloway?

  you're rich, we'll ensure you're protected. Your daughter has access to family planning. You have rights. Your kids will go to great colleges. Don't worry about it. And this is the unholy alliance between our government and the 0.1%. And unless the 0.1% decide to become class traitors and actually speak up, none of this shit is going to change. We are going to continue to build another brick in the fascist wall. So I am exceptionally disappointed that the exceptionally wealthy are just giving kind of like symbolic resistance to what is going on here. If they want to hand over America to a very dark side, we are well on our way. There needs to be more class traitors, and those class traitors

• 25:48Scott Galloway?

  have to be the 0.1%, because quite frankly, they're the ones with all the power right now. And it is not happening. What are you, what is the last thing that's going to run through in your head on your deathbed? That I was worth more money than I needed to be? Or that I stood up for American values?

• 26:05Ed Elson?

  We'll be right back after the break for our conversation with Mike Moffett. If you're enjoying the show so far, be sure to give Prof G Market a follow wherever you get your podcasts.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them? That's bull spend and marketers are calling it out in. Dashboard, confessions.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Payday bars have a bone to pick with the other candy bars. Enough with the toppings and layers and stuff, kay? Payday bars are just salty crunchy peanuts and sweet caramel. Delicious. Payday Peanut Caramel Bar.

• 27:09Speaker 03

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends, like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra because it's not just a superior light beer. It's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 27:45Ed Elson?

  Okay, welcome back. Here's our conversation with Mike Moffett, founding director of the University of Ottawa's Missing Middle Initiative and also a former economic advisor to Justin Trudeau. Mike, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

• 27:58Speaker 07

  Oh, thanks for having me.

• 28:02Ed Elson?

  I'll just start with this. We've been talking a lot about Canada lately, mostly in relation to Trump. You know, we had this 51st state drama. We had the tariff stuff. We've got this potential trade war and I've been watching all of this go down and it's gradually dawned on me just how little I actually know about Canada. And I talk with my friends about this and I talk with my peers and it becomes clear to me they don't really know much either. So I don't think I'm in the minority. I think there are just a lot of well read, informed Americans out there who don't know a lot about this country, which is why I'm just so glad to have you on today to fix that for us. So I'd love to start with just like an overview of Canada's economy.

• 28:44Ed Elson?

  So how big actually is the Canada economy? What are its strengths? What are its weaknesses and what makes it different from the American economy?

• 28:55Speaker 07

  So we're about a $2 trillion economy and a population of about 40 million. We're a little bit more heavily reliant on manufacturing than the United States. As far as energy goes, I think we produce more oil per capita than than most places outside of Norway and the Middle East. So you know, like the United States, it's a it's a pretty diverse economy. It's a very kind of regional economy. One of the big differences is we're far more reliant on trade. That trade is about 40% of our GDP relative to about 15 to the United States. And because of accidents of geography and history,

• 29:38Speaker 07

  needless to say that most of our trade is with the United States. We are very reliant on a single customer.

• 29:43Ed Elson?

  That makes me think that this tariff situation is going to be a big, big problem and we will get there. But just as we continue to build this picture of Canada, give us a sense of the political situation in Canada right now. I think most people probably know Trudeau has resigned, but he's still, from my understanding, Prime Minister for now. What's happening in Canadian politics? What's going to happen with Trudeau moving forward?

• 30:05Speaker 07

  Right now, the Liberals are having a leadership campaign. The new leader will be selected March the 9th. It will almost certainly be Mark Carney, who will kind of instantly become Prime Minister at that point. Two or three months ago, the Liberals were dead. It was, you know, they were going to be all but wiped out in the next election. But with Trudeau resigning, they got a little bit of a bounce back in the polls. But after all of this kind of Trump tariff, Canada, the United States. We're starting to see a resurgence of the Federal Liberal Party that Mark Carney is about even in the polls with the Conservative leader of Poliev.

• 30:47Speaker 07

  And it feels like the next election is basically going to be a referendum on who is better positioned to deal with Trump. On the one hand, you have Poliev, who is a career politician versus Mark Carney, who is a central banker in two G7 countries.

• 31:04Ed Elson?

  Bank of England, right? I didn't realize that until you said you got Mark Carney, Bank of England and Bank of Canada. This guy's a machine.

• 31:12Speaker 07

  Yeah, he absolutely is. But I think the big question up here is how much does monetary policy, history affect your ability to do these things? But I think one of the things that Carney has in his favor is he was over at the Bank of England during the whole Brexit period. So he has some kind of experience, you know, dealing with these issues where you've got political unrest. You know, you have these kind of geopolitical factors. So we're actually going to have a race up here. And it didn't look like we were going to have one even three months ago.

• 31:43Ed Elson?

  So interesting. And then my final question on this Canada 101 segment is the history of Canada. Could you just give us a very brief history of Canada? You know, how did this country form? What are its cultural roots? How did we get to where we are today?

• 31:58Speaker 07

  Well, we can think of it essentially for on the American side is it's the people who stayed loyal to the crown. It was a lot of the, a lot of the people who, you know, were on the other side of the American revolution who settled up here. And obviously as well, we have a large French component that Quebec makes up about 25% of the population. So we're culturally a little bit different. We're, you know, oddly more conservative in ways in the cautious sense, not the sort of political sense. You know, we don't as much like big changes, you know, we're loyal to the crown. So, you know, we're more of a place of evolution.

• 32:37Speaker 07

  I think the other big difference is, you know, when it comes to integrating newcomers, you know, the United States has always had this kind of melting pot type approach. Right? Where you come in from all over the world and you Kind of add and you're you're all mixed together and creating one harm, hopefully harmonized culture. You know, Canada's more of a patchwork quilt that people hang on to their cultural identities for for generations. So you could be Indo-Canadian or Scottish Canadian or French Canadian. So we're more comfortable with those those differences up here.

• 33:08Scott Galloway?

  Scott, I will turn it over to you to get into the economics. I feel as if I need to say to you what, as an American, what I should have said to my ex-wife, and that is, I'm sorry I've been such an asshole. Just the behavior is totally unacceptable, and I'm sorry, on behalf of any sane American. And finally, I'm saying the most important question. Let's talk about Connor McDavid. Edmonton Oilers, is that right?

• 33:35Speaker 07

  Edmonton Oilers, Connor McDavid, yeah. That was a mixed blessing for me. I'm a huge Calgary Flames fan, which is the Oilers' rival. So that was a tough day for me. I was like, I was so happy Canada won, but I like, why did it have to be the guy we call McJesus up here? You know, it'd be like, being a Yankees fan and, you know, seeing the Red Sox, you know, win a baseball tournament for the Americans. It's kind of a mixed blessing.

• 33:58Scott Galloway?

  I just want to point out, I'm completely, I'm shocked that you know anything about hockey, Scott. So let's explain to Ed, because Ed is not much, he's not much of a man. The Four Nations Hockey Tournament, which was arguably the greatest sports spectacle of the last year, Connor McDavid in sudden death overtime of the Edmonton Oilers, put it in the net for Team Canada. And you've never heard so many Americans root for Canada, I think, in history. Anyways, my serious question now. What's interesting, or one of the things that's interesting about America, is that our news is 22 minutes of domestic and then eight minutes of international, whereas most nations, it's reversed. We don't think much about other nations.

• 34:41Scott Galloway?

  And I think the general stereotype we have of Canada is it's basically a nicer, friendly, or maybe a little bit, you know, more shit together version of America. But it strikes me, or my thesis is that a lot of the problems that ail us are the same problems you have, and sometimes even worse. Whether it's income inequality, it feels like someone told me that there's literally a half a dozen or a dozen families that control a disproportionate amount of the economy, that housing is just a shit show in Canada, and that many of the immigration problems, many of the problems we're struggling with are not just as bad, but worse in Canada. Can you talk about, as an economist, what two or three things you think are really

• 35:25Scott Galloway?

  ailing Canadian society right now?

• 35:27Speaker 07

  Yeah, so I think the first is the housing crisis. To put it in perspective, average, single-family home up here is about 550,000 US dollars in the US.

• 35:39Scott Galloway?

  Which is 3 million Canadian, right?

• 35:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, something like that. It depends on the tariff trough and, you know, what, how much the dollar has, the looney has dropped in any given day. But we also have to realize that our incomes are a lot lower down here. And that was actually the impetus of us starting the Missing Middle Initiative, is that it's priced at the young middle class across Canada. So we're seeing, you know, young people living with their parents longer, you know, all of these things that you're seeing in the US. I think we actually have more of it up here. You know, I think one of the things you can think about in Canada is, you know, we're kind of a blue state on steroids, and we have a lot of this kind of same blue state issues that you see in the United States.

• 36:22Speaker 07

  You know, we've had very robust immigration, and now, you know, we, our population has absolutely boomed, and we haven't created the structures to facilitate that. So there's a lot of tensions here. So I think that's one of it. Second is absolutely right, that Canada's economy is like three oligopolies in a trench coat. You know, we are, we have a lot of inequality that way. We have high levels of market concentration because- We have this tension in Canada where we want things to be Canadian. We want Canadian ownership. But when you do that, you create a moat. And whenever you create barriers to entry, you're going to naturally create oligopolies. So I think that's another one.

• 37:07Speaker 07

  And finally, we have a business culture here in Canada that's the classic like nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. Our business leaders up here tend to be very small C conservative and that flows her into things like procurement. It's really hard for small businesses to break in here. I used to work in the chemical industry, worked with consumer chemicals, cosmetics companies and that kind of thing. And it's easier for a small Canadian cosmetics manufacturer to make their first big sale to CVS or Walgreens than it is to make it to one of the big pharmacy chains up here. They're just very, you know, it's like, okay, we've got our supplier relationships. We have our products. We're fine with that.

• 37:53Scott Galloway?

  So healthcare, healthcare is something that is not working in the United States. I mean, I would

• 38:01Scott Galloway?

  like many of our industries, I would argue that the bottom 90 are there as a vessel to optimize for the top 10. If you're in the upper decile of income earning households in the US, I think we have access to the best healthcare in the world. But it comes at the price or the expense of the bottom 90 and 40% of American households now have some sort of medical or dental debt. Talk a little bit about Canadian healthcare and whether you think it's an example we should be following, learning from, why it doesn't work, thoughts on on healthcare in your country?

• 38:29Speaker 07

  I do think it's an example, perhaps not necessarily the best example, but you know, the idea that you can go to a hospital or a doctor and pay with your health card and not your credit card. I think there's a lot of merit to that. There are a lot of strains right here now in Canada and a lot of that is to do with population growth. That it's hard in my province of Ontario to find a family doctor. ER wait times have gotten absolutely out of control. Because of a combination of population growth and under By government and healthcare here is so political. It's so wrapped up in how we identify ourselves as Canadians.

• 39:11Speaker 07

  It is really hard for us to reform that any, anytime anybody suggests a major healthcare reform up here, somebody says, well, that's, that's American style healthcare and we can't, we can't do that. So, you know, overall, I've lived in the US, I live in Canada, I kind of like the Canadian system better, but there's a lot of room for improvement. And I find how just attached we are to the system here really prevents the system from evolving in the directions it needs to.

• 39:40Ed Elson?

  It's also kind of sounds like an indictment of Canada's government and just, I mean, especially when I hear about the immigration issues, the idea that population is soaring as a result of loose immigration, which is leading to a lot of these problems. It sounds like that's where you land on this. What are your thoughts on the government and what the government's done, especially considering that you also worked with the government at one point? Is this an indictment of Trudeau? What have they gotten wrong?

• 40:07Speaker 07

  Yeah, you are asking me to grade my own homework here a little bit. Yeah, I do think the government did drop the ball on immigration. I think the government would be the first to admit that. We have a new, relatively new in the last year and a half or so, Immigration Minister Mark Miller, who's made a number of reforms to the system. And part of those reforms are just lowering the overall number. But we made some changes about 20 years ago to how our immigration system worked. Traditionally, we've had a lot of immigration and people come over at like age 28 or 29

• 40:47Speaker 07

  and their labor market outcomes aren't good, simply because, you know, they don't necessarily speak the language, they have a degree or diploma from some institute we've never heard of, businesses don't want to hire them. So governments, the Trudeau government and the Harper government before them, made this kind of conscious decision to run more of our immigration system through our colleges Universities instead of having people come over at 28 or 29, have them come over at 18 or 19, get four years of post-secondary under their feet. Get they'll get a degree or diploma in a place that Canadian businesses have heard of. And they'll have better labor market outcomes like everything. It kind of worked well in theory.

• 41:30Speaker 07

  But in practice, what happened was the colleges and universities use this as a cash cow. They just kept bringing in tons and tons and tons of students to help pay the bills. And not necessarily the highest quality students. But rather, okay, you know, can you, you know, do you have $50,000 a year to pay in tuition? Great. Well, we'll let you in. So that's caused a lot of problems, particularly in our college and university towns. And the federal government has had to unwind that. Many of those policies were by provincial governments. So there is some jurisdictional issues there, but overall, yeah, the federal government dropped the ball on this. They're trying to clean it up right now, but it's it's caused a lot of tensions here in Canada.

• 42:14Ed Elson?

  We'll be right back. And if you're enjoying the show so far, hit follow and leave us a review on Crofty Markets.

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• 43:48Ed Elson?

  We're back with Profite Market.

• 43:50Scott Galloway?

  Are there any examples or anecdotes or color that you can help people understand the differences between Canadian life and US life or approach to approach to business, approach to relationships, patriotism? And what do you observe in Canada and America and you think that's uniquely American or Canadian?

• 44:09Speaker 07

  So I used to live in Rochester, New York, which is really not that much different than southwestern Ontario where it was born and raised, you know, the kind of sort of Rust Belt area. You know, I do think there are cultural differences. I find Americans a little bit more open and honest, more willing to tell you, you know, what they think. Again, I find the biggest one in the business community is just willingness to try things, willingness to try new suppliers, try new products, that kind of thing. As somebody who again was an entrepreneur for over a decade. And I think that actually might be the biggest difference that we are so much more afraid to fail up here in Canada.

• 44:53Ed Elson?

  Sounds like England.

• 44:54Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's we have this, we have this philosophy that failure is not an option. Right? So we're never trying, it feels like here in Canada, we're never trying to maximize the best case scenario. We're trying to minimize the worst case scenario. And that creates a kind of level of mediocrity as well. I think sometimes here we can, we can get some tall poppy syndrome as well. This is, it's 40 million people, but we all, you know, particularly in the business and politics community, we all kind of know each other and you know, we can, we can get a little bit mean when, you know, we think somebody is, you know, getting a little bit too big for their head or accomplishing too much.

• 45:34Scott Galloway?

  With respect to the dialogue, if you can call it that, between America's leadership right now and Canada's leadership. How are Canadians on the street? And I'm not sure. My guess is the majority of your colleagues would probably, you know, label you with the biggest American insult, the cultural elite. But do your best to kind of, kind of, if you will, mimic or channel how you think Canadians on average are reacting to some of the rhetoric that's come out of US leadership.

• 46:04Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think it's a combination of we're hurt and angry. I think weirdly, we're actually more, we've come together more as a country. I think we are less divided than we have been in probably a decade here. So, you know, that's the kind of silver lining to all of this, that the Trump administration has kind of brought us together and created a bit of a common enemy. But, you know, the focus on the ground here are just kind of like, like, what the hell? Like, we fought, you know, two world wars with you guys. We were in Afghanistan with you guys, you know? We've done all of these things together. And, you know, we will, we will admit that, you know, we're not perfect up here. We, we know that we need to do more on defense, military spending.

• 46:49Speaker 07

  You know, we need to have better security at our ports. So, you know, there is an acknowledgement that some of the things that the administration talks about and some of the things that Americans talk about aren't legitimate issues and that we do need to be raising our game. But, you know, we feel particularly insulted up here. And it creates those conditions of patriotism. You know, we haven't seen, when it comes to the hockey game, for instance, for us, it felt like the Summit Series of 1972 when we played the Soviets. You know, that was the last time we really cared that much about, you know, winning an international hockey match. So we've kind of come together as a country, you know, because we do, you know,

• 47:34Speaker 07

  we are not happy with the administration and the rhetoric coming out of the United States.

• 47:39Ed Elson?

  I'd love to hear what you think about these tariffs. Just as a refresher, Trump has obviously made all these tariff threats to Canada. 10% on energy, 25% on steel and aluminum, 25% on cars and trucks, and 25% on pretty much everything else that America buys from Canada. You mentioned that the reliance on trade in Canada, it sounds like more so than America. How, how bad are these tariff threats? Like if these tariffs actually go through, and it looks like they might, what would it do to Canada's economy?

• 48:12Speaker 07

  Bank of Canada has done some estimation on this, and it would basically look like the 08, 09 financial crisis up here. You'd be looking at a kind of immediate drop of about 3% to 4% of GDP and then kind of recovering over time. But unlike 08, 09, it would actually be inflationary in nature. So maybe it's actually a little bit more like, like the pandemic where, you know, we get the GDP drop of the financial crisis without the deflation of the financial crisis. And it would really screw up our, our supply chains. Cause I think how people conceptually think of trade is sort of, you know, I'll trade you my finished good for your finished good.

• 48:55Speaker 07

  But we have to understand that these supply chains are, you know, they cross the border several times and, you know, a lot of what gets traded is intermediate goods. And it's kind of going to screw up our ability to do a lot of things. So for instance, if we look at housing, drywall, most drywall that we use in Canada is manufactured in Canada. So like on, in theory, we're kind of self-sufficient on this. Until you realize that the outer paper that, that, that covers drywall, almost all of that is made in the United States. So because, because of that, that, you know, if there's tariffs or other issues in the

• 49:38Speaker 07

  border and reciprocal tariffs, even this product, this made in Canada product used in Canada, we're going to see price rises, we're going to see, you know, we're, we're going to see difficulty getting that. So, you know, because the United States specializes in, you know, the paper for drywall, that's going to be an issue. We specialize in the paper for toilet paper. So, you know, we might not be able to build homes, but you guys might not be able to do other things and it's just not going to be good for anyone.

• 50:06Ed Elson?

  We won't be able to wipe our ass. Okay.

• 50:09Speaker 07

  It's not gonna be good for anyone.

• 50:11Ed Elson?

  Yeah, and my final Trump related question, I just have to get your comments on his proposal to make Canada the 51st state. Is there a soul in Canada who thinks this is a good idea? Or is it just completely absurd to everyone in the nation?

• 50:27Speaker 07

  Well, there is actually a market for it. I would say it's about

• 50:31Ed Elson?

  Interesting.

• 50:31Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's about 12 to 15% of the population. Yeah, we've done a lot of groups up here, get it, have done a lot of polling on it. So there is a certain segment of the population that is more conservatively minded that, you know, thinks that that might not be a bad idea. You know, Trump does have his supporters up here, tends to only be about 20 to 22% of the population. But yeah, for the rest of us, you know, we're just absolutely no way. Like, we love our country. We love being Canadians. We want to stay Canadians. We love visiting the United States, particularly in February up here. So, you know, we want to be good neighbors and friends, but we don't want to move in together.

• 51:12Scott Galloway?

  Just some additional data that Michael referenced. In World War II, Canada entered the war two years before the US and trained over 130,000 Allied airmen. During the Iran hostage crisis, Canada or Canadian diplomats sheltered, hid six American embassy staff and helped orchestrate their escape. And had they been caught doing this, they would have been hanging from cranes. They stuck behind in Tehran and took huge risks. After 9/11, Canada launched Operation Yellow Ribbon, accepting 224 diverted flights when US airspace closed, sheltering 33,000 stranded American passengers. Canada, as Michael referenced,

• 51:54Scott Galloway?

  fought alongside the US in World Wars I, II, Korea, the Persian Gulf, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and against ISIS. It is the largest undefended border in the world. The border between Canada and America, which gives you a sense for how much mutual trust there has been leading up to this point. And there's also really deep people-to-people connection with extensive family ties across borders. My parents initially immigrated from Glasgow and London respectively to Toronto, where they were welcomed with open arms. I tell this story, I was actually conceived in Toronto, born in San Diego. And the only time my dad, I've ever seen my dad cry

• 52:38Scott Galloway?

  Is I every year I give him something off his bucket list and he doesn't choose to hang out with me or his grandkids. He wants to go to the Air Canada Centre and see the Leafs play the Haves in the opening opening night of the Toronto Maple Leafs. And at the beginning of the game, a bunch of Scotsmen, Scottish Canadians, come out with bagpipes and he just loses his shit. But, you know, Canada and America, it's such a wonderful friendship and alliance. And I trust and hope that you and your countrymen recognize there's a lot of Americans that feel a very deep bond with Canada and that we, I generally believe this is just total nonsense. And again, to my ex-wife and to Canada, I am sorry for

• 53:23Scott Galloway?

  this type of behavior. This is unacceptable. And I trust that sooner rather than later, we'll be back to just being great, great siblings in what has been one of the strongest alliances in history. Anyways, that's my TED Talk, Michael.

• 53:37Speaker 07

  Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And, you know, I think Canadians are recognizing that. And we're always trying to keep that in the back of our head that, that, you know, the American people are our friends. They're not our enemies. You know, this is, this is coming from, you know, particular administration. And even folks who voted for Trump didn't necessarily vote, vote for this, like this, he did not campaign on it. So, you know, we as kind of hurt and as offended as many of us are, I think we are being able to make that distinction. And again, I think we also recognize that, you know, we're not perfect in the Canada-US relationship either. And, you know, we have areas where we need to

• 54:18Speaker 07

  improve. And, you know, we're just hopeful that, you know, we can, we can find some common ground.

• 54:24Ed Elson?

  Final question from me, Mike, and thank you so much. This has been informative, enlightening, and really appreciate your time. If America could learn one thing from Canada. What do you think it should be?

• 54:35Speaker 07

  Hockey.

• 54:36Scott Galloway?

  I was gonna say, I saw that coming.

• 54:39Speaker 07

  Hockey.

• 54:40Scott Galloway?

  I saw that coming.

• 54:41Speaker 07

  You're so, you're so close. I mean, made it to the final, made it, made it to overtime. I have a little bit worried, though, you know, over the last decade or so, that American team-

• 54:50Scott Galloway?

  USA is coming up.

• 54:51Speaker 07

  It's coming up.

• 54:52Scott Galloway?

  USA is coming up.

• 54:52Speaker 07

  You guys are nine times the size we are. So, you know, I, I'm worried. You're, you're learning quickly and you're bigger than us.

• 55:00Speaker 07

  But yeah, overall, you know, I think we can learn a lot from, from each other. And, you know, we can teach you hockey, you're teaching us baseball and let's keep playing together.

• 55:11Ed Elson?

  Well, I'm more bullish on hockey.

• 55:12Scott Galloway?

  There you go.

• 55:13Ed Elson?

  Mike Moffatt is an economist, business professor, and a co-host of the podcast The Missing Middle. Mike is the founding director of the University of Ottawa's Missing Middle Initiative, devoted to restoring middle-class prosperity to young Canadians. Mike previously held the role of Chief Innovation Fellow for the Government of Canada, advising on innovation and manufacturing policy, and is a former economic advisor to Liberal leader Justin Trudeau. Mike, this was a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us.

• 55:38Scott Galloway?

  Thanks, Michael.

• 55:39Speaker 07

  Oh, thank you for having me.

• 55:49Ed Elson?

  Scott, your reactions to Mike? I thought he was great.

• 55:52Scott Galloway?

  He's infinitely Canadian. He's nice, he's smart. I just think it's so embarrassing that we are pissing on our neighbors and friends and allies. I just don't get it. I just don't. Let's surrender to and cozy up and give Putin a lap dance, but let's insult Canadians? I just, it just, I, I don't, I don't understand what's going on. And I trust that they're, like Michael, they're a little bit more measured and more mature than our current leadership. And I hope this is just an embarrassing, an embarrassing kind of moment in history in terms of the relationship. But I don't know, I've thought a lot about, you know, America seems so strange. People say, well, is it time to leave?

• 56:35Scott Galloway?

  I heard of, of one of my friend's ex-wife is moving to London because she's so freaked out about Trump. And I said, no, this is the time to move back to America and, you know, get in the fight. I mean, I think I've told you this, I'm moving back in 18 months and I-

• 56:49Ed Elson?

  Finally, my God.

• 56:51Scott Galloway?

  Finally, right? Thank God. Thank God. Thank God. The nation a huge sigh of relief.

• 56:57Ed Elson?

  Yeah, seriously.

• 56:57Scott Galloway?

  I shall return. Watch out, In-N-Out Burger, sales are about to go up 12% year on year.

• 57:03Ed Elson?

  It's going to be flying them into Delray.

• 57:05Scott Galloway?

  There you go. I think this is a, I really do think this is an opportunity and a call for Americans living abroad. If you are worried about the US, about what's going on, and maybe you support it, but if you don't, as I don't, I think it's a good time to get back to the US, not to be worried about leaving, at least not yet. I think it's time to come home and become part of the resistance.

• 57:27Ed Elson?

  As you've said before, we're a nation of reformers, not quitters. It's much more noble to reform than quit.

• 57:32Scott Galloway?

  That's good. That's very profound, Ed.

• 57:34Ed Elson?

  Well, I didn't come up with it. It was you.

• 57:36Scott Galloway?

  I'm going to make you CEO of my investment bank.

• 57:39Ed Elson?

  I can't wait. This episode was produced by Claire Miller and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our associate producer is Alison Weiss. Mia Silverio is our research lead. Isabella Kinsel is our research associate. Drew Burrows is our technical director, and Catherine Dillon is our executive producer. Thank you for listening to Prof G Markets from the Vox Media Podcast Network. If you liked what you heard, give us a follow and join us for a fresh take on markets on Monday.

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