Hyperventilating over the Gartner AI Hype Cycle

This week Daniel & Chris hang with repeat guest and good friend Demetrios Brinkmann of the MLOps Community. Together they review, debate, and poke fun at the 2024 Gartner Hype Cycle chart for Artificial Intelligence. You are invited to join them in this light-hearted fun conversation about the state of hype in artificial intelligence. Sponsors: Intel Innovation 2024 https://intel.com/innovation?regcode=CMCCHL&utm_campaign=Changelog – Early bird registration is now open for Intel Innovation 2024 in San Jose, CA! Learn more https://intel.com/innovation?regcode=CMCCHL&utm_campaign=Changelog OR register https://reg.oneventseries.intel.com/flow/intel/innv2024/InnovationReg?regcode=CMCCHL&utm_campaign=ChangelogMotific https://www.motific.ai/ – Accelerate your GenAI adoption journey. Rapidly deliver trustworthy GenAI assistants. Learn more at motific.ai https://www.motific.ai/Featuring: Demetrios Brinkmann – X https://x.com/DpbrinkmChris Benson – Website https://chrisbenson.com, GitHub https://github.com/chrisbenson, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbenson, X https://x.com/chrisbensonDaniel Whitenack – Website https://www.datadan.io/, GitHub https://github.com/dwhitena, X https://x.com/dwhitenaShow Notes: MLOps Community https://mlops.communityMLOps Community Podcast https://tr.ee/2aUfMm9AIbGartner Hype Cycle for Artificial Intelligence, 2024 https://www.gartner.com/en/documents/5505695Upcoming Events: Register for upcoming webinars here https://practicalai.fm/webinars!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 2:44Daniel Whitenack?

  Well, welcome to another episode of Practical AI. This is Daniel Whiteknecht. I am founder and CEO at Prediction Guard. I'm joined as always by my co-host, Chris Benson, who is a principal AI research engineer at Lockheed Martin. How you doing, Chris?

• 2:59Chris Benson?

  I'm doing fine. We got a fun one today, Daniel. Just give you a good one.

• 3:03Daniel Whitenack?

  Yes, of course. It was wonderful not that long ago to be in the great city of San Francisco and run into our friend Demetrios from the ML Ops community. And I figured I'd just bring him along for another conversation. So, Demetrius, how you doing?

• 3:23Speaker 04

  I'm great, man. We're back and I've got some bad news to break to you right now. I wanted to do it on air.

• 3:30Daniel Whitenack?

  Go for it.

• 3:31Speaker 04

  Just to get your reaction.

• 3:33Daniel Whitenack?

  Oh, boy. You can be vulnerable. This is how we build community.

• 3:36Chris Benson?

  Yeah, I'm nervous.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, so Prediction Guard, awesome. Congratulations on all the success that you've had. We're doing a data engineering for ML and AI virtual conference and one of your colleagues, Daniel, filled out the CFP. Haven't gotten back to him yet, but I can't accept him. I just am way too full, way over my head. And as much as I want to, I'm going to have to divert him to doing his own special event, basically. We're going to actually take what may have been a bad thing and turn it into a good thing.

• 4:11Daniel Whitenack?

  That sounds great. I'm looking forward to learning more.

• 4:15Speaker 04

  There we go. You know, I gotta, I gotta make sure that you get all the love and shine you deserve because I'm super stoked at what you're doing.

• 4:23Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah, yeah, well, appreciate that. It was great to see you and, and you had your own event in SF. How was that?

• 4:30Speaker 04

  I do not recommend doing live events to even my greatest enemies. If anyone out there is contemplating organizing an AI conference, you can do it, but I don't recommend it.

• 4:44Chris Benson?

  It's gonna hurt.

• 4:44Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  It's painful, man. But it was a big success. It was just a lot of work leading up to it, as you can imagine. And we had fun on the day of. It was like, I think over 750 people showed up. Lot of great conversations, a lot of fun, like spontaneous, sporadic meetings with people. And that's the stuff you get at in-person conferences that you, it's really hard to replicate virtually.

• 5:12Chris Benson?

  Yeah. You know what the secret is? The secret is it's AI and it needs a lot of hype. It really needs a lot of hype. There's one thing that we don't have enough of in AI. It's we don't have enough hype. If you had hyped it more, it would have worked.

• 5:27Speaker 04

  You know, I do a fair amount of hyping. And so for those out there that are sick of the hype, like myself, I've only got myself to blame on this.

• 5:40Daniel Whitenack?

  Well, Chris, you sent me a very interesting looking hype-filled chart the other day. You want to go into what that was?

• 5:52Chris Benson?

  Well, I will. And I'm actually blaming it all on Demetrius. He was making fun of the Gartner hype cycle. And gosh, I hope they're not a sponsor because we're making fun of them today. And, and he was, he was going through that and it was funny. And I said, dude, we need to do an episode where we all analyze the Gartner hype cycle in 2024 for artificial intelligence. And we, we break it down and we're going to assess it and decide what we think of those things. And we're, we're not doing this in our normal Extremely serious manner. We are doing this in the fun way and, and lest you don't know Demetrius out there, which I can't imagine because he's a regular guest on the show here. He is, in addition

• 6:36Chris Benson?

  to being a brilliant guy in this field, he is also the funniest man in all of artificial intelligence. So this is going to be good. And we're going to dive into the Gartner hype cycle today and break it down for you. We're going to start with the real one and then we're going to maybe make some adjustments to it.

• 6:54Daniel Whitenack?

  You know, Chris, you, you say making fun, but I mean, Gartner seems to have fulfilled their mission. I mean, we're talking about the, the hype cycle, we're, we're going into it. So maybe their mission was fulfilled and, you know?

• 7:08Chris Benson?

  We are their fulfillment.

• 7:10Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Chris Benson?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 7:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're hyping it up right now.

• 7:12Chris Benson?

  We're hyping it up.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  Very true.

• 7:14Chris Benson?

  Okay. And we're gonna have fun doing it.

• 7:17Speaker 04

  I just have to say, yeah, please, if anyone knows how I can get a job doing this kind of stuff, just making up words and then putting them onto a wave graph, let me know because I would love this as a job. It just seems like it's too much fun.

• 7:34Chris Benson?

  Well, let's see. I think surf's up. Let's hop on the wave and let's start talking our way through, you know, Demetrius, you wanna, do you wanna lead off on what, some of your ideas there?

• 7:43Speaker 04

  So I think the most surprising to me out of this whole graph, and for anybody that's not familiar with the hype cycle, you've got the big like upward side and then it goes down and it kind of crashes and then it starts to climb back up. And it's the traditional like-

• 8:05Chris Benson?

  And the two second version of that, and I did in our, in a previous episode, I did a longer version when we were looking at some specific things on it. But the two second version is new technology comes out, everyone's super excited about it. They think it's gonna be the greatest thing since sliced bread. It doesn't live up to the hype. They get frustrated. They go, this thing sucks.

• 8:27Daniel Whitenack?

  And and it falls down on the hype popularity side and then cooler heads prevail and they kind of go, okay, well, maybe it can do something. Okay. And and then it's into a reasonable sense of productivity. So that's Gartner in a nutshell.

• 8:40Speaker 04

  So the biggest surprise for me is at the bottom of the slope. So after it's gone all the way up, the hype cycle, it's come down and crashed down and is at the absolute bottom that The trough of disillusionment. Exactly. There is cloud AI services. Yes. And for me, that is the biggest misnomer, because if anybody is making any money out of any of this, and I guess maybe hype and actual money, they're detached and they're very decoupled here. But for me, that was like, wait, what? There's no hype in cloud AI services. So bedrock out of there. Hype is killed. It's at the trough of disillusionment.

• 9:24Speaker 04

  Any type of sage maker, if you're using that or vertex, no, out of there. It's the lowest of the low. And so when I saw that, that was instantly like, Dude, why are you even doing it? Yeah. I did not believe a thing that I read afterwards, but that was my thing. Any, any big surprises from you guys?

• 9:44Chris Benson?

  I think your point on if there's anyone making a killer amount of money on this, it's Microsoft, it's Amazon, it's Google. Uh huh.

• 9:54Daniel Whitenack?

  Part of my struggle here is some of these terms, like I could interpret them one way or another way, right? Like sage maker, for example, which for those that don't know is a, it's kind of like a model deployment service within AWS and there's various convenience around it and that sort of thing. Like that's been around for quite a while now, like a very long time, even before sort of the kind of hyped gen AI stuff.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  Oh, long before.

• 10:23Daniel Whitenack?

  But yeah, so like, is that a cloud AI service? Like that's been around for a huge amount of time? Or are we just talking about like hosted model APIs, right?

• 10:33Speaker 04

  They don't say.

• 10:34Daniel Whitenack?

  Which also, to be fair, have been around a long time. Like you look at something like OCR or translation or something like that. And in cloud services have been around for a really long time and are Sort of ubiquitously used.

• 10:48Chris Benson?

  It's funny that it's down there. I get your point. Maybe it's just like everyone knows that's where the cloud, that's where all the services are. We're all paying for them.

• 10:57Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah. So does hype correspond to usage, I guess? Like in this chart, is it that people aren't hyping cloud AI services even if they're used?

• 11:07Chris Benson?

  Or I think it's an emotional thing. You know, the hype side is, you know, how much people are talking. So maybe it's accurate in this context. There is nothing sexy about AI services in cloud providers. And maybe that's what they're getting at is like, yes, we're paying an arm and a leg. We're giving them all of our money, but there is nothing sexy.

• 11:26Daniel Whitenack?

  But productivity wise, it's definitely productive.

• 11:30Chris Benson?

  I would think so.

• 11:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's very pragmatic too, especially for those people just starting. I don't know any easier way than to just grab an API from like Amazon Bedrock is just hosted model. Hit that API like you would hit an OpenAI API, but now you have a suite of models, right? So that seems to me like a near miss, but then at the top of the peak is the other one. That was a huge surprise to me because I've noticed this trend. I don't know if you guys have noticed it, but people who were formerly ML engineers, we've all converted into being AI engineers and an AI engineer is so misleading because you don't know.

• 12:14Speaker 04

  Is that somebody that is coming from like a front end development world? And now they do a little prompt engineering, they use a few frameworks and they can chain together some prompts to make a bit of a demo on Twitter and now they're an AI engineer? Or is it somebody that was deep, deep in the ML platform weeds? And because AI is now the new rage, they call themselves an AI engineer. So I, I don't know about that, but it's at the top.

• 12:44Chris Benson?

  I think it's the same.

• 12:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:46Chris Benson?

  I think it's all, I, I think people use AI, ML, and before it really fell out of vogue, deep learning interchangeably.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 12:56Daniel Whitenack?

  I don't know if it's also maybe connected to the fact like Chris and I talked about this. I believe it was maybe last week. The fact that some of the disillusionment around AI is sort of the realization that turns out AI is integrated in software. And you still have to do engineering to like build software. And it doesn't just sort of like having a model is a solution doesn't really like play out in reality.

• 13:24Chris Benson?

  You mean, I can't just buy an AI model and stick it out there and magic things happen?

• 13:28Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah, I mean, one would think.

• 13:30Chris Benson?

  I'm so disillusioned.

• 13:31Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  It's funny you guys mentioned that too, because I've seen a few people talking about how L L Ms are not a product. You have to build on top of L L Ms, your product or whatever it is, your service that needs to be there. So you can't look at an L L M as a product per se. And then I've also seen, or I've been thinking deeply about something that is like the companies that are really getting a ton of value out of this AI movement. Uh, I'm thinking about one of my friend's companies who does like a support software. And now he's leveraging AI and L L Ms for creating like multi agents and helping answer feedback

• 14:18Speaker 04

  or answer questions and queries for support. And he's using AI. That's awesome. He's able to sell that support product to companies really well. What I haven't seen is companies that say, hey, I am fraud detection as a service. And I'm going to sell you this whatever traditional ML product as a service. Whereas you can create regular business unit products as a service that leverage AI. But you can't quite, or at least I haven't seen anybody crack the nut, create some kind of a traditional ML service type of product.

• 15:03Speaker 04

  I don't know if you guys have seen that. And I also don't know if I'm making much sense right now because it's something that's relatively fresh in my mind.

• 15:10Chris Benson?

  I'm going to turn that one over to Daniel.

• 15:13Speaker 04

  So, no, I wasn't making much sense, I guess is what the nice way of saying it is.

• 15:19Daniel Whitenack?

  I mean, so you've got like, what I would say is the things that I have seen most are either what you were talking about. So utilizing generative AI embedded in the functionality of sort of domain-specific applications, like the customer service you were talking about, or financial services, or whatever, or access to models over some API infrastructure, right? There's maybe less like general, I guess maybe the biggest one I've seen is sort of just general like fine tuning as a service. If you look at something like, you know, OpenPipe or something like that, but that's still fairly general purpose.

• 16:03Daniel Whitenack?

  It's not specific to any sort of use case that you might use. Maybe to some degree, you know, certain RAG services would fit into that. Like we were talking to Pinecone about their recent, like, they have more kind of pre-built things to have you do, kind of like load in all your documents and have RAG set up and all that stuff. So I don't know, that's maybe the closest that I've seen to that sort of scenario.

• 16:31Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, also, the big question is, everybody wants to, and this kind of ties back into the hype cycle, everybody wants to be doing RAG and wants to have all these great use cases with their RAG. And so like you were talking about with Pinecone, they make it really easy for you to do your RAG. But then, at the end of the day, is that a viable business? Or is that actually super useful? As opposed to, somebody's got this support software that they can come in and really cut down the burden for your customer success engineers, or your customer success people. And that is fascinating to me because

• 17:15Speaker 04

  it's, it's a booming business right now. The RAG business, maybe, yeah, that's great. Maybe there's some interest there. Is it a booming business? I don't know. I haven't seen numbers. But I think the really fascinating part to me is, if you try to juxtapose that with like a fraud detection as a service type of... Product. I just haven't seen that anywhere because I think A, you're not able to really like give away everything as freely and B, what works for one fraud detection use case doesn't necessarily, it's not like you can productize that and then go out and sell

• 17:57Speaker 04

  it as a service, in my opinion. So, so this is a little bit of a tangent, I know, but, but that, all that to say is, we're at peak hype for AI engineers.

• 18:09Chris Benson?

  Peak hype, yes. So I'm going to draw us back over to the hype cycle just for a moment and I want to read, I'm going to do something boring for a moment. I'm going to read off the things where they are for our listeners because the three of us have the benefit, obviously, of seeing the graph in front of us and for listeners who aren't. So I'm going to take a moment and then we can go back and start hitting them there. Very quickly, heading up the curve initially, the innovation trigger, we have autonomic systems, we have quantum AI, we have first principles AI, we have embodied AI, multi-agent systems, AI simulation, causal AI, AI-ready data, decision intelligence, neuro-symbolic AI, composite AI, artificial

• 18:54Chris Benson?

  general intelligence, otherwise known as AGI, and then we're hitting the peak of inflated expectations. At the top of that hype cycle, we have sovereign AI, AI trism, prompt engineering, responsible AI, and at the very peak, AI engineering. And then starting to slide down, we have edge AI, foundation models, synthetic data, model ops, and generative AI, and just going into the trough of disillusionment is neuromorphic computing, smart robots, followed at the bottom by cloud AI services. And then we slide up the slope of enlightenment to autonomous vehicles, knowledge graphs, intelligent applications, and finally, the singular one on the plateau of productivity, which is where you want to end up, is computer

• 19:39Chris Benson?

  vision, which is basically, yeah, we can do that. It's boring and no one talks about it anymore, but hey, we're making money.

• 19:46Speaker 04

  So if the listeners out there are not confused.

• 19:51Chris Benson?

  Oh, there's a whole bunch. I don't have any idea what they are. Gosh.

• 19:56Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, which ones do you actually know what they are? Because

• 19:59Chris Benson?

  What the hell is embodied AI?

• 20:01Speaker 04

  Oh, I I learned what that is after I put out the post. So someone said, oh, yeah, embodied AI is when you use AI in robots.

• 20:09Chris Benson?

  It is?

• 20:10Speaker 04

  So, yeah.

• 20:10Daniel Whitenack?

  But there's also smart robots on the

• 20:13Chris Benson?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Daniel Whitenack?

  On the cycle.

• 20:14Chris Benson?

  And I used it at a former employer. I was specifically doing AI systems in robots, and I've never heard of it.

• 20:22Speaker 04

  You never called it embodied AI?

• 20:23Chris Benson?

  Well, it's been a few years. I'll I'll give you that. It was so, but no, we weren't calling it embodied.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  I mean, so I think I'm at like a 30% hit rate on these. And I really would love to know what first principles AI is because that feels like buzzword bingo to the fullest.

• 20:40Chris Benson?

  I don't know.

• 20:41Daniel Whitenack?

  Um, let's see first.

• 20:43Chris Benson?

  Yeah, Daniel's going, he's cheating.

• 20:45Daniel Whitenack?

  AI.

• 20:46Chris Benson?

  He's going to models to find out he's.

• 20:48Daniel Whitenack?

  Um, the car AI generated card in my Google search says, when applied to AI first principles, AI suggests developing AI systems and algorithms by understanding the foundational principles of machine learning, neural networks and data science from the ground up.

• 21:05Chris Benson?

  Don't we do that anyway when we're, isn't that kind of inherent in training new models and stuff? Oh, but no, no, we're really going back. We're going back to the very first ones. You're at the second or third principle. We're beating you.

• 21:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, because all you guys that are out there that aren't using first principles, you know, that's lower down on the hype cycle.

• 21:26Chris Benson?

  Okay.

• 21:27Speaker 04

  Oh, this is. Yeah, so the other pieces, I mean, were there any other surprises for you guys? Because I have so many other pieces on here that I'm like, what?

• 21:36Daniel Whitenack?

  I think for me, like, some of these things are themselves correlated and yet in different places on the chart, right? So it's like, if you look at generative AI, foundation models, edge AI, AI engineering, prompt engineering.

• 21:56Daniel Whitenack?

  Probably some others on there. All of those like sort of fit into the same-ish bucket and yet are on different sides of the hump. So yeah, I don't know, like some of these, it's also a matter of where do you draw the boundaries? Where's the boundary between generative AI and foundation models or generative AI and prompt engineering?

• 22:17Chris Benson?

  I'll give you one, you know, as we're at the very bottom on the innovation trigger is quantum AI. And I've, okay, so that's not gonna happen anytime soon. And I will note that they have it on the greater than 10 years, but I would suggest it's probably greater than greater than 10 years.

• 22:36Daniel Whitenack?

  But isn't that, I mean, one of the things that's interesting about this whole cycle is there's that one, maybe you all can tell me or I can look it up. There's that one law. It's like a general law that people talk about where you underestimate short-term innovation and overestimate long-term innovation or something like that.

• 22:58Speaker 04

  Vice versa.

• 22:59Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah, yeah, sorry. I said that backwards. Yeah. So it seems like some of like, it's hard to, especially the time angle of this. It's hard to, because things just pop up and you like, really didn't see certain things coming and others that you thought would would come don't. So yeah, it's extremely difficult.

• 23:19Speaker 04

  100%. One thing that I am, just to tag on what you're talking about, Daniel, with the bucketing these, please tell me what the difference is between an AI engineer and a prompt engineer?

• 23:35Speaker 04

  Like, a prompt engineer is someone that only does prompts, I guess, and that's all that matters. So they're just, so I can see how it's like, where's the line here?

• 23:45Chris Benson?

  When prompt engineering came out, Daniel, you might remember, I kind of made fun of that. I was like, the whole that you talk about, like, because people were saying their new jobs are for prompt engineers and stuff. And I'm like, that is a passing fad. Like, that will be just so ingrained in what everybody does all the time. That the notion of there being someone who that's their entire job all the time for years is not going to happen.

• 24:09Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah, I also didn't know. So like, I've never heard anyone use the word, or if it's a word, it's an acronym, AI trism. Do people go around saying that?

• 24:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, what is that?

• 24:22Chris Benson?

  What is it?

• 24:23Daniel Whitenack?

  So it's, I looked it up and you know what's, what's funny because this is exactly the area that I'm working in every day. It's AI trism is tackling trust, risk and security in AI models.

• 24:38Chris Benson?

  Ah, okay.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  You've never heard that used, have you?

• 24:41Daniel Whitenack?

  And I've never heard that, but now I feel like I should put it on our website. Because it's hyped.

• 24:48Chris Benson?

  Yeah, you definitely need there. That's right.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  The funny part is it's almost as hyped as prompt engineering, which is basically all you hear about is prompt engineering, right?

• 24:59Chris Benson?

  Yeah, they're right there together.

• 25:00Speaker 04

  AI trism, you never hear about?

• 25:02Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah, there you go. But the trism, it's, it's out there.

• 25:07Speaker 04

  It is.

• 25:09Chris Benson?

  We hear about, you know, the, the components that make that up all the time.

• 25:13Daniel Whitenack?

  Sure.

• 25:14Chris Benson?

  But just never the, I've never heard them put it together that way. And I'm sure there are people that are out there that, that, you know, their focus is in that area. And they're like, of course it's trism, honey. But yet, guess what? Most of us don't know that.

• 25:26Speaker 04

  No, not at all. I don't even know, if I go and I just look at this, I don't know what causal AI is. I don't know what the AI simulation is. The multi-agent, I do understand, but then, like even when you say quantum AI, I don't know what that is. The one that I, I would say is probably in the wrong spot is synthetic data. It feels like that should be still going up on the hype train because we're just discovering what we can do with synthetic data. And every week, I feel like we unlock new use cases

• 26:10Speaker 04

  and synthetic data is just, it's the gift that keeps on giving in my eyes.

• 26:16Chris Benson?

  I think that's the difference in you who actually does it and somebody at Gardner, you know, who was tasked to go put the chart together and doesn't actually do the thing in real life. I've terribly offended somebody out there.

• 26:31Speaker 04

  Well, we're glad that it's out there. Let's just say that we are very happy that this exists. So we can have a whole episode dedicated to breaking it down.

• 26:40Daniel Whitenack?

  Yes, it's a conversation starter. Yeah, that's what I mean, like achievement.

• 26:45Speaker 04

  Unlocked.

• 26:46Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah, unlocked.

• 26:47Chris Benson?

  So one thing that I noticed isn't there at all, which really surprises me, given how much it's bantered about, is ethical AI. It's not on the chart.

• 26:57Speaker 04

  And that doesn't go in the trism?

• 26:59Chris Benson?

  Maybe it does. Maybe this is where I, you know, is ethical AI now transformed from a labeling standpoint into trism? Is that, is that where we're going? I don't know.

• 27:08Daniel Whitenack?

  Or what is the overlap between responsible AI trism and ethical AI?

• 27:14Chris Benson?

  Okay, well.

• 27:15Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 04

  And there isn't really anything on here about GPUs or hardware. So I think that's because they made their own hype cycle for GPUs.

• 27:29Chris Benson?

  That's right.

• 27:30Speaker 04

  If I'm not mistaken, I feel like I've seen that somewhere on the internet.

• 27:35Chris Benson?

  You'd be cannibalizing your other chart.

• 27:37Speaker 04

  Exactly. So you can't put any GPU hardware, anything on the AI one. You gotta refer people to the GPU hype cycle. And maybe it's like that with ethical AI, like they made a whole other ethical AI chart. That is the hype cycle for ethical AI.

• 27:54Chris Benson?

  Maybe so. I'm not familiar with it.

• 27:56Speaker 04

  How many charts can you make? That's if you're Gardner, I guess.

• 28:00Chris Benson?

  They have, I mean, we have just the artificial intelligence hype cycle here, but they probably have. I think I've seen multiple, you know, subdivisions and stuff out there. So.

• 28:10Speaker 04

  That's why it's a great business to be in Gardner selling all these different hype cycles.

• 28:16Daniel Whitenack?

  Well, speaking of what to hype, what, uh, what's not on the hype cycle, but should be?

• 28:24Speaker 04

  All right, if I could.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  Have talked to somebody at Gartner before they were making this, I would have advised. And so this is my, basically this is my video job interview right now.

• 28:36Chris Benson?

  I'm busy typing an invoice up for you to send to them. Okay. Just really.

• 28:39Speaker 04

  Exactly. I would have advised AI Gateway. That is very popular. That's climbing the hype cycle right now because people really like to have the option to hit an AI Gateway. And if it is not that complex of a query, you don't need to hit GPT-4. You don't need the most expensive model. If you have some kind of open source model that is cheap, then let the simple query go to that 7B model. And so I've been hearing people call it an AI Gateway. Others, I think, have called it like a LLM proxy.

• 29:20Chris Benson?

  Router.

• 29:20Speaker 04

  Maybe or router. Yeah, that's another one. So we would have to agree on the actual name, but that's gaining hype for sure.

• 29:30Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah, agreed. Yeah, it's, I've definitely seen the router language. Whatever it is, like the languages overlap with networking, which is basically like you're just routing API calls. So I guess that makes sense.

• 29:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. Any, any that you guys would have liked to have seen on here and where?

• 29:51Chris Benson?

  I had the ethical, I'm still wondering what composite AI is. Did we ever get that answered or have I just, am I having a senior moment or something?

• 29:58Speaker 04

  What is, yeah, what is it?

• 30:00Daniel Whitenack?

  What, the one that really stands out to me, unless I'm just like, there's a lot of words on this page, so maybe I'm totally missing it somewhere. But where is multimodal AI?

• 30:11Chris Benson?

  Oh, good catch there.

• 30:14Speaker 04

  It's not on here, is it?

• 30:16Daniel Whitenack?

  No.

• 30:17Chris Benson?

  Who cares about multimodal?

• 30:18Speaker 04

  So weird. That should be in the peak of inflated expectations.

• 30:22Daniel Whitenack?

  This is like the thing of 2024, like multimodal AI.

• 30:27Speaker 04

  That's so fun. Even multimodal RAG should be on here. Like climbing the innovation trigger. Multimodal models should be on the peak of inflated expectations.

• 30:38Chris Benson?

  That, that is such a good catch. I know tons of people who, who say multimodal and have no idea what it means.

• 30:45Daniel Whitenack?

  Well, what, what does it mean, Chris?

• 30:49Daniel Whitenack?

  Quiz time.

• 30:51Chris Benson?

  Well, it's having different modalities of of input there so that you can combine different inputs to get a a rich output, you know, in a very general sense. I have no idea.

• 31:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, so voice.

• 31:04Chris Benson?

  I know it when I see.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  Photos. Yeah, video.

• 31:06Daniel Whitenack?

  Photos, video.

• 31:07Chris Benson?

  Yeah, all the things.

• 31:09Speaker 04

  All the things. Yeah, exactly.

• 31:11Chris Benson?

  Which is what we want. I want to throw a bunch of stuff that I have and and have a fantastic, just have it sorted out and give me the best answer. And even with today's multimodal models, that doesn't happen very well. There's I I'm often I'm often frustrated and disappointed with with those outputs. So, yeah, it's I I'm expecting better.

• 31:34Speaker 04

  Yeah. And along those lines, I have two that I would like to have seen. One is just transformers in general. Where's that? Where are they on this hype cycle? Because that also feels like, are they climbing or are they going down? I don't know.

• 31:53Chris Benson?

  It would be trough of disillusionment heading downward because that it's kind of we're we're we're past that and people are now talking about post transformer models, you know, quite often. So it's kind of like, yeah, yesterday.

• 32:06Daniel Whitenack?

  So there needs to be another dot for post transformer models.

• 32:10Speaker 04

  That's definitely going up.

• 32:11Chris Benson?

  And that's right.

• 32:13Speaker 04

  Speaking of which, it feels like, OK, we've got small language models. Where are they? Because that is all the rage.

• 32:23Chris Benson?

  It is.

• 32:24Speaker 04

  That was like, and maybe it's all the rage for every vendor who is not OpenAI because they can't compete on GPT-4. And so what do they do? They say, well, you can just host your own small language model and fine tune it and get better performance than GPT-4. And so.

• 32:44Speaker 04

  I think small language models are probably, they should be in that innovation trigger, maybe the peak of inflated expectations because anyone who's ever used the 7B model might not want to use it if they have the choice.

• 33:02Chris Benson?

  Well, maybe, maybe it's, is it, are you sure that's going up? Or could it possibly be sliding into that disillusionment that you just referred to?

• 33:10Speaker 04

  Potentially, that's true.

• 33:11Chris Benson?

  Because maybe it is going into the trough of disillusionment, you know, just hypothetically. Because I do think that when it gets to the plateau of productivity, small models will be those, just the workhorse, you know, you'll have them out on the edge everywhere. Every fricking device you've ever imagined or seen is going to have small models in it that are inferencing, we won't ever have anything that doesn't have them. It'll be just the, oh yawn, of course, we have our small models in our watch.

• 33:40Speaker 04

  Which leads me to the next one that I'm like, where is this? Why do they not have wearable AI? That is a perfect buzzword that should be on here. And if you look at like what Meta's doing with the glasses, or if you see any of those necklaces that you can wear and it records everything.

• 33:58Chris Benson?

  Yeah.

• 33:59Speaker 04

  That's wearable AI right there. I just, I may have just made that up, or I may have seen that before, but that one should be on here.

• 34:06Chris Benson?

  It should be there, I agree.

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• 36:23Daniel Whitenack?

  Maybe this fits into kind of the agentic stuff that is represented in certain ways on there, but this whole idea of whatever, you know, like tool function calling slash like text to SQL, like interacting with structured databases, APIs, whatever that is. I don't know, like the, maybe the general name for that other than tool and function calling or text to SQL, but certainly that's like sliding into a zone where people are definitely doing some of those things in, in production and there's products released around it. So like the, the hex magic stuff and, and all that, that other.

• 37:05Chris Benson?

  Where is it on the chart though, before I go on?

• 37:07Daniel Whitenack?

  Oh, where is it on the chart?

• 37:10Daniel Whitenack?

  I mean, it's got to be somewhere, somewhere around AI engineering.

• 37:14Chris Benson?

  So it's at the peak of it.

• 37:17Daniel Whitenack?

  Maybe, maybe, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It might be, maybe it's going down. Cause people are like, eh, agents aren't reliable.

• 37:25Chris Benson?

  I think that's right. I think it's heading down into the trough of disillusionment. That's where I would guess.

• 37:29Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah.

• 37:30Speaker 04

  Yep. And if you compare that to where they have it, multi-agent systems, it's got a long way to go up. It is at the very bottom of this hype cycle. So yeah, I think we instinctively are like, no, please no more agents.

• 37:47Speaker 04

  Gardner's like, oh, we're just getting started, baby.

• 37:50Daniel Whitenack?

  Well, and, and they're like, no, please, more agents together, multi-agents.

• 37:56Speaker 04

  Gardner's going to create their own agent hype cycle next. That's going to be the next one that they can create.

• 38:02Daniel Whitenack?

  Maybe.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  And so we'll, you know, take a commission for giving you that idea, Gardner. No problem there. One thing, can we call out the elephant in the room? Because where is retrieval augmented generation on?

• 38:20Chris Benson?

  Yeah.

• 38:21Speaker 04

  How is that not on here? Really?

• 38:22Chris Benson?

  Yeah. Rag? What's that?

• 38:24Speaker 04

  Cause I was thinking about it. I was thinking about it and I was like, oh, you know what they missed is graph rag. That is all the hype these days. And that's probably right around where sovereign AI is, where it's maybe like

• 38:40Daniel Whitenack?

  At the border of the

• 38:41Chris Benson?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Chris Benson?

  It's going up nearing the peak of inflated expectations. You're right.

• 38:46Daniel Whitenack?

  More hype than the trism.

• 38:48Speaker 04

  Yep. More hype than the trism.

• 38:50Chris Benson?

  I bet I would argue rag is, is hitting to the trough of disillusionment. Anyone want to disagree with that?

• 38:55Speaker 04

  No, no, I think so too.

• 38:56Daniel Whitenack?

  I think it's over the hump.

• 38:58Chris Benson?

  Yeah, I do too. I mean, it's, and people are kind of hitting the, the challenges and, and, and, you know, and actually. Daniel, advanced RAG, you know, which we've talked about several times. You know, the kind of, kind of trailer. Well, we don't just have RAG now. We have advanced RAG.

• 39:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:14Chris Benson?

  And, and you know, because

• 39:15Speaker 04

  Advanced.

• 39:16Chris Benson?

  As things are starting to head over that peak of inflated expectations with RAG and you, well, guess what? We can do some more.

• 39:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:22Chris Benson?

  We have advanced RAG. But I think, I think the whole thing is starting to go over the side and you know, people are like, okay, well, we've kind of done at least the easy stuff. To the advanced RAG point, there are people that are, that are doing it better than others. But nonetheless, you know, it's, you know, what's next? So what, I'm just curious, two second deviation. We've talked about, you know, fine tuning. We've talked about RAG. What's coming next in that, in that sphere? What, what are they missing there?

• 39:53Speaker 04

  Yeah. A new model?

• 39:56Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah, I think you mentioned that you might've had some of these, Demetrius. What are AI hyped items that are your own? That you've come up with a name for?

• 40:10Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 40:10Daniel Whitenack?

  That other people will have to interpret?

• 40:14Speaker 04

  All right.

• 40:14Daniel Whitenack?

  To, to figure out their definition.

• 40:16Speaker 04

  You wanna, you wanna guess?

• 40:18Daniel Whitenack?

  Yes.

• 40:18Speaker 04

  On this one? All right, here we go. I am going to start you off with, with a pretty simple one. This one is free range AI.

• 40:29Daniel Whitenack?

  Free range. Is that, is that open access LLMs?

• 40:33Speaker 04

  Close. Close. What do you got, Chris?

• 40:36Daniel Whitenack?

  Grain fed.

• 40:37Chris Benson?

  I, I can't get off the free range thing. I'm an animal guy. I can't even, I can't even get into the AI headspace on this one.

• 40:44Speaker 04

  It's AI that was trained without guardrails.

• 40:47Chris Benson?

  Okay.

• 40:48Speaker 04

  Gotcha.

• 40:49Chris Benson?

  Okay, I like that.

• 40:50Daniel Whitenack?

  Well, we, we already talked about, about one here. That, that you alluded to, Demetrius, but my name for it was trinket AI.

• 41:01Speaker 04

  Wearables?

• 41:02Daniel Whitenack?

  Yes.

• 41:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:03Daniel Whitenack?

  Yes.

• 41:04Speaker 04

  Trinket AI. Yeah, imagine it's it's in your fidget spinner.

• 41:09Chris Benson?

  That sounds a lot.

• 41:10Daniel Whitenack?

  Right.

• 41:10Chris Benson?

  That's a much better name than wearable AI.

• 41:13Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah.

• 41:13Chris Benson?

  Trinket AI.

• 41:16Chris Benson?

  It is. Every little thing you have on your body has a fricking model inferring signal on it, you know.

• 41:22Speaker 04

  And it doesn't bring you any extra value? We're gonna follow the AI trend?

• 41:29Chris Benson?

  You just don't have to think anymore.

• 41:30Daniel Whitenack?

  You can click that button and take a picture, Demetrius.

• 41:33Speaker 04

  No, it just gives you some verbose answer to a question that you didn't really ask.

• 41:40Speaker 04

  So your shirt is you're like, hey, have I been sweating? And then it tells you the origin of sweat in a three-page PDF that you have to go download.

• 41:51Chris Benson?

  Do I get Senior Moment AI? That would be good for me, you know? There's a huge market for that. Everybody over the age of, you know, 50 is gonna buy Senior Moment AI to, you know, like, what? What's what? Oh, and it, oh, there we go. And, you know, I can, I can continue instead of pausing for the next three minutes to try to figure out what it was I was about to do.

• 42:11Speaker 04

  Or I was thinking that that's how seniors interface with AI so they don't get left behind. It's like, this is the product that will make sure you stay up to date, you're ahead of the curve.

• 42:26Chris Benson?

  Okay. Sounds good.

• 42:28Speaker 04

  All right, I got another one for you all.

• 42:30Chris Benson?

  Okay, go for it.

• 42:30Speaker 04

  This one is EQ AI.

• 42:35Daniel Whitenack?

  Oh, empathetic AI?

• 42:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's also been known as empathetic AI. Yeah, you may hear other people out there and on the streets calling it empathetic AI. This one is a type of AI that has high emotional intelligence and it feels empathy for you when you get frustrated that it's not giving you the right answer and your prompts aren't working. But it doesn't actually make your prompts work. It just feels bad for you.

• 43:03Chris Benson?

  Okay, I, that minus the AI bit that happened to me yesterday. I was on Comcast on their stupid text support for four hours texting.

• 43:15Chris Benson?

  They passed me off and every pro- everyone was so empathetic, but they accomplished nothing. If you put that in AI, I'm quitting AI. If you put that into any AI that does that, I'm just done. I'm, I'm walking away from the whole field.

• 43:28Speaker 04

  Are you sure it wasn't already AI that you were talking?

• 43:32Chris Benson?

  It could have been. I mean, it was just text. It was only text, but it was horrible.

• 43:37Daniel Whitenack?

  We've already passed the Turing test, so.

• 43:40Chris Benson?

  It's like they're, they're, I'm getting a response of, I'm so sorry. I'm just very sorry. We're here to help you. And I'm like, I'm gonna freaking kill you. You know? Yeah.

• 43:48Daniel Whitenack?

  Yes.

• 43:49Chris Benson?

  That's what four hours texting support will do, but you don't do, yeah, I just, um, if you bring that to AI, it'll ruin the whole thing for me.

• 43:57Speaker 04

  Well, this one, funny enough, is actually on the uptick. When you look at the slope, the EQ AI has got a lot of runway left.

• 44:07Chris Benson?

  Yep.

• 44:08Daniel Whitenack?

  Um, so my, my next one is AI, either AI nepotism or AI anti-nepotism.

• 44:18Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 44:20Chris Benson?

  I don't, I'm trying to make that.

• 44:22Daniel Whitenack?

  Fighting AI nepotism.

• 44:25Speaker 04

  Fighting AI nepotism. Oh.

• 44:27Chris Benson?

  Okay, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to go into that one for me. That's,

• 44:30Daniel Whitenack?

  I've stopped you.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:32Daniel Whitenack?

  This is exciting.

• 44:34Speaker 04

  It's basically using AI against like the government using AI or what?

• 44:42Daniel Whitenack?

  No, no. So, uh,

• 44:45Chris Benson?

  Foundation model related, maybe?

• 44:47Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah. So this would be like multi-model AI in that you are not preferential to one language model family and only using that family, but you are now multi-model and, you know, as such, not practicing nepotism.

• 45:08Chris Benson?

  But are you multimodal, multimodal?

• 45:13Speaker 04

  This is also, you know, I knew it by its other name, uh, which is polygamy AI.

• 45:20Daniel Whitenack?

  Yes.

• 45:20Chris Benson?

  Oh, gosh. Where are we going?

• 45:25Speaker 04

  No, or, or some in San Francisco call it polyamorous AI. Yes. It tends to be so. The, the next one that I've got for you, oh, where is this nepotism AI on the hype cycle? By the way.

• 45:40Daniel Whitenack?

  Uh, I think it's still a bit on the rise. I saw A16Z in their, in their post, one of the things they called out was multimodal future.

• 45:48Speaker 04

  Oh yeah. There's a future for this one. That is for sure.

• 45:53Speaker 04

  So I've got one that is called broccoli AI.

• 45:59Chris Benson?

  Okay.

• 46:00Speaker 04

  This one's, this one's going down.

• 46:02Daniel Whitenack?

  Is it related to some sort of graph thing? No.

• 46:06Speaker 04

  But that could be nice. Yeah.

• 46:08Chris Benson?

  Branching. Is it synonymous with healthy AI?

• 46:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Maybe you've heard it termed healthy AI.

• 46:14Daniel Whitenack?

  Efficient?

• 46:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:17Daniel Whitenack?

  Sustainable?

• 46:18Speaker 04

  No, so, oh, that's another one that I've got though, but we'll get to that in a minute. Which, which reminds me like, it does feel like sustainable AI should have been on the real hype cycle. Like that's an actual term, isn't it?

• 46:31Chris Benson?

  Yes, it is, and it's not.

• 46:32Speaker 04

  And it's not on there. The other one that should have been on there that I was like, why isn't it on there is ensemble AI? That feels like, or ensemble models? That feels like it should have been on there.

• 46:43Daniel Whitenack?

  See, one of the ones that I looked up was composite AI.

• 46:49Chris Benson?

  Yeah, that's the one I didn't know.

• 46:50Daniel Whitenack?

  I think, well, I don't know. It's slightly different than ensemble, but I think that they like composite was combining multiple, multiple AIs together, um, in some way or another.

• 47:02Chris Benson?

  For one inference, like you have multiple, you know, models inferencing, but you have one inference back out to the, uh, the user?

• 47:10Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah, something like that. I don't know. Although ensemble could very, yeah, very much mean.

• 47:17Daniel Whitenack?

  For a single inference, getting a majority vote or something like that.

• 47:21Chris Benson?

  Okay, so it would be where composite AI is on the chart if they're assuming they're correct.

• 47:25Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah.

• 47:26Chris Benson?

  And we're, we're, before we leave it, sustainable AI, where is it on the chart?

• 47:29Speaker 04

  That's very much like, it's got a lot of hype to go.

• 47:33Chris Benson?

  Yeah. I think it's low to mid level, mid level on the, on the curve up.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:38Chris Benson?

  Okay.

• 47:39Speaker 04

  And just think about how many people are talking about the energy that is wasted training foundational models.

• 47:45Chris Benson?

  True.

• 47:45Speaker 04

  And how we need to build out all these data centers and they need to be sustainable, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, sustainable AI for sure has some room to grow. Back to broccoli AI, AKA healthy AI. This is AI, and this is very much on the down slope again. It has passed its peak. People are a little disillusioned with it because it's AI that doesn't taste good for the organization, but it's needed. And so you can imagine the cybersecurity folks, they love this kind of AI.

• 48:20Daniel Whitenack?

  Is this like a linear regression model? Or what would you consider good for an organization? I think you used the word good.

• 48:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, healthy. It's healthy for the, if we could go to healthy for the organization, what could that be? I, I mean, I actually didn't get to do enough market research in this section to,

• 48:43Speaker 04

  to figure that part out, you know? I was just throwing spaghetti at the wall. But I, if I were to think about what's healthy, yeah, it would probably be the traditional ML. Going back to the, what I was talking about before, like fraud detection is one of those, where it's not really AI. Some people might know it as its former term, ML. So.

• 49:05Chris Benson?

  I'm telling you, they're all the same from a marketing standpoint.

• 49:09Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 49:10Daniel Whitenack?

  Well, yeah, the waters are too muddied for them to make any actual difference.

• 49:15Chris Benson?

  That's right. So what else you got, what else you got?

• 49:18Speaker 04

  Okay, so I've got unsustainable AI, which is way different than sustainable AI, just so we're clear.

• 49:25Chris Benson?

  An inverse.

• 49:27Speaker 04

  But it's not even, it's a whole different. Sector of the universe that we're talking about. It's not like, oh, it's just the opposite of sustainable AI. Unsustainable AI is, it's got, it's at peak hype right now. Let's be honest. If I could swap it out with the AI engineer, it is at peak hype because this is AI that was built for a product demo, but not for scale. That is unsustainable AI.

• 49:56Chris Benson?

  Happens all the time.

• 49:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. So anything that you see, basically, we can, hopefully none of these guys are your sponsors, but let's just cue Devon or Rabbit or Humane, all those unsustainable AI.

• 50:11Chris Benson?

  The trinkets?

• 50:12Speaker 04

  The trinkets? Yeah, that's true.

• 50:15Chris Benson?

  So it's sort of analogous to doing like prototyping software where you're, you're never intending to, to grow it into production.

• 50:22Speaker 04

  Exactly. So, so that's all of mine that I, I could think of.

• 50:27Chris Benson?

  Well, I think that was a pretty good list.

• 50:29Daniel Whitenack?

  I did realize, I don't know, maybe, maybe related to some of the discussion we had earlier, but I don't see neighborly AI on here.

• 50:39Chris Benson?

  That's kind of creepy when you think about it.

• 50:42Speaker 04

  I wasn't creeped out until you said that, but.

• 50:48Chris Benson?

  I had this image of Mr. Rogers neighborhood, you know, but instead of Mr. Rogers, it's the AI. Hi, girls and boys.

• 50:55Daniel Whitenack?

  Maybe they can help you clean up a few things with their rags?

• 51:00Speaker 04

  It clean, no.

• 51:04Chris Benson?

  Oh, boy.

• 51:07Speaker 04

  Well, I was thinking it was like next door where it was almost like the voting system, the ensemble, but it was for local LLMs.

• 51:14Daniel Whitenack?

  Gotcha. Yeah, I realized there's nothing about vectors or embeddings on the chart. I was just thinking about that.

• 51:21Speaker 04

  Actually, there's, yeah, there's no vector stores on here.

• 51:24Daniel Whitenack?

  Or even just general embeddings of any type. Yeah.

• 51:29Chris Benson?

  I, wouldn't that be plateau productivity now? Well, we've had this for so long that they're just

• 51:33Daniel Whitenack?

  I don't know.

• 51:34Chris Benson?

  Lexicon, no emotion left in them.

• 51:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. What I was thinking is they probably aren't on there is because Gardner also has one of their. Best products ever, the magic quadrant. And that'll be the next episode that I come and drop in on. We can remake the magic quadrant for the different sectors. And I imagine that they have a magic quadrant for vector databases.

• 52:00Daniel Whitenack?

  Yes, that sounds delightful. Yeah, well, it it has been delightful to to have you on, Demetrius. I'm glad you brought your various new AI terms to the hype cycle. And now I have have some work to to do on my broccoli AI.

• 52:22Speaker 04

  Incorporate that into your product for sure. It's it's right around there for Trism.

• 52:27Daniel Whitenack?

  It would be a good AI logo, just like a broccoli floret.

• 52:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, the broccoli or the I saw a great paper that was all about leaks. It was all about data leakage when you send API calls to OpenAI. And the paper started with a emoji of a leak.

• 52:47Daniel Whitenack?

  That's awesome.

• 52:47Speaker 04

  Like the leaks you eat.

• 52:48Daniel Whitenack?

  Right.

• 52:49Speaker 04

  And it was saying here's and it was basically showing how you send your data to OpenAI. But a lot of other people are going to get it too, if you're not careful.

• 53:00Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah.

• 53:01Speaker 04

  Which is one, one thing that we haven't really touched on, but that seems like it's got some hype around it.

• 53:07Daniel Whitenack?

  Is what?

• 53:08Speaker 04

  Data leakage AI.

• 53:09Daniel Whitenack?

  Data leakage, data poisoning.

• 53:12Speaker 04

  Data poisoning.

• 53:13Daniel Whitenack?

  In my day job, that's a common conversation.

• 53:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, prompt injection.

• 53:18Daniel Whitenack?

  Should be there.

• 53:18Speaker 04

  Injection, yes.

• 53:22Speaker 04

  I guess this all fits under Trism.

• 53:24Daniel Whitenack?

  Yeah.

• 53:25Speaker 04

  This is it. We're going over trisms right now.

• 53:28Daniel Whitenack?

  Trisms and trinkets. On that note, that very profound note. It has been great to discuss the all the trisms with you, Demetrius.

• 53:41Speaker 04

  Had a blast, as always.

• 53:42Daniel Whitenack?

  Please, please come back as as usual, give your your own hype about the the upcoming event before we close out. And where people can find out more about it.

• 53:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, I always feel bad. I come on here and just show my stuff. So this time, no shilling. I've just had a blast doing this with you guys.

• 53:59Daniel Whitenack?

  Okay.

• 54:00Speaker 04

  So if anybody wants to find out about the next virtual conference or the in-person conference, they can just Google ML Ops Community and I'm sure it'll pop up.

• 54:09Daniel Whitenack?

  Cool. All right. Hey, much appreciated. We'll talk to you soon to meet you. Thanks, man.

• 54:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, thanks, guys.

• 54:22Speaker 00

  All right, that is Practical AI for this week. Subscribe now if you haven't already. Head to practicalai.fm for all the ways and join our free Slack team where you can hang out with Daniel, Chris, and the entire change log community. Sign up today at practicalai.fm/community. Thanks again to our partners at fly.io, to our beat freaking residents, Breakmaster Cylinder, and to you for listening. We appreciate you spending time with us. That's all for now. We'll talk to you again next time.