The artist AI can’t kill

Beeple didn’t turn an 18-year daily JPEG habit into a $69 million Christie’s sale by waiting for permission. He posted, missed, learned, repeated, and inadvertently walked straight into the moment NFTs forced the art world to take digital work seriously. In this episode, Reid Hoffman talks with Mike Winkelmann (aka Beeple) about the real story behind the sale, why deadlines beat inspiration, how satire lets artists ask dangerous questions without preaching, and why AI is not a soul, a friend, or a shortcut. It is a tool that can—and should—make humans do more. From robot dogs with billionaire faces to AI-built sculptures shaped by strangers, Beeple argues the future is going to get much weirder, the bar for originality is rising fast, and artists who opt out may not like what happens next. For more info on the podcast and transcripts of all the episodes, visit https://www.possible.fm/podcast/

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You hear people sometimes say things like AI doesn't have a soul.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  And it's like, well, what the fuck are you talking about? Of course it doesn't have a soul. It's a computer program.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  People say, oh, this AI agent's my friend. It's like, no, a friend is a two directional relationship. The AI agent can't be your friend yet.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  If you look at AI as a way for humans to do less, you will be very fearful of it.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  If you look at AI as a way for humans to do more, you will be inspired by it. The future is going to be so weird. These technologies, they're moving faster and faster. And they're sort of like intertwining in ways that we can't sort of like predict.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  Digital culture used to live on the margins. Now it sets prices, shapes taste, and even redefines ownership. Today, we speak with a digital artist who didn't come up through galleries or institutions. He built his reputation one day at a time, publishing work online for free for years, long before anyone ever thought it was valuable. Almost overnight, that work collided with blockchain, NFTs, and global speculation. This conversation isn't about hype or quick flips. It's about what happens when technology, authorship, and attention converge in a single moment? And how culture, value, and ownership are being rewritten in the process?

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Welcome to Possible, people. So Mike, I've been a fan of the art for a long time.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  Thank you, thank you.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  It's not just, obviously, the amazing artifacts, the intersection of technology and like imagination and creativity, but also the kinds of things you're willing to make fun of, the kinds of ways of using satire, of making this work. We'll cover a bunch of this stuff. But you know, this podcast, Possible, technology optimists, you know, kind of hoping for what do we make in the future? Probably, and this is one of the reasons I've been really looking forward to doing this with you, a little bit less familiar with art, right? People.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  What does like, how does that name come about? What does it brand stand for? What is the for people who probably like, who's this Mike guy that reads talk and do? What's the intro?

• 2:06Speaker 00

  Sure. So, uh, thank you very much for having me. Very much appreciated. Um, I've been a digital artist for 25 years. I'm 44, um, and started making, uh, digital art when I got to college. I went to school for computer science and then kind of struggled through that and, and sort of just graduated and I was like, I'm just gonna like get a job doing web design and like make art on the side. And so, you know, that's what I did. And technology has always been at the sort of like forefront of, of all of the art that I've made since I got a computer in fourth grade. It was like this is the thing.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Which computer was it?

• 2:42Speaker 00

  It was a IBM 386 SX, I think. I think it had four meg of RAM and a 20, 20 or 40 meg hard drive.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Few people will know what that is, but we do.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  You know what it is? Yeah. It's like, yeah, you appreciate how insane, you know, everything is. And so, uh, just kind of had been making digital art for the last 25 years and, and sort of growing a, uh, following on social media. And a lot of people know me for the sort of like everyday project where I've been doing a picture every day for the last 18 years. And done a bunch of sort of concert visuals and then the NFT thing, you know, obviously exploded and, uh, now here we are.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Here we are. And then, and then Node Foundation with the, the launch of their, you know, the kind of museum and CryptoPunks, but we'll get to that. So I do think everyday is a good place to start because it's one of the things where I think also, you know, kind of breaking on the scene with Christie's and all this. How did you start with the everyday project? What, what, what made you decide to do it? What made you decide to stick with it? When did you start realizing? This was a project that people were gonna track.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  So I started in 2007. I wanted to get better at drawing. And so I had seen an illustrator out of the UK named Tom Judd, who did a drawing every day, like sketch every day. And I thought, wow, that's a really cool way to like, you know, he had, the project had kind of completed it. He did it for one year. And I thought, wow, I want to get better at drawing too. So I was like, you know, why don't I try doing that? And so I did that. And after the year, I realized I'd learned a huge amount. And I was like, I'd always wanted to learn a 3D program, a 3D animation program. And so I was like, why don't I do a render a day in Cinema 4D? And try and teach myself this program, which I knew nothing about that same way. And so then I started doing a render every day. And then very quickly, it was just like, I just kind of kept doing it.

• 4:40Speaker 00

  But it definitely was kind of like a slow progression of people, sort of like, you know, kind of like learning of this. Like definitely for the first year, and this was again in 2007. So Facebook wasn't even open to the public at that time. I was just posting it on my website. And it was just like, nobody saw it. Um, and so, you know, it really kind of like slowly gained sort of like steam over that, um, you know, over the sort of like full 18 years.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Was there a moment where it kind of hit an inflection? Or was it just kind of like, where suddenly it was like, wait, there is this long kind of, it's almost like I'm thinking of that film, Seven Up, 14 Up, 21 Up, you know, kind of following people. Like where it suddenly went, aha, this has now evolved into something.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Um, I don't remember like a very specific anything happening. It was really just like, pretty quickly, something that I knew I was not going to stop doing. There was never really any time where I seriously considered stopping doing it. But yeah, it really just was like a slow progression. I mean, obviously the everyday sale was a pretty like, okay, this is like, you know, a thing. But that was, you know, well into the sort of, you know, kind of like career of it. But yeah, I think it's, I think in terms of like continuing to sort of like do it, it's I have an appropriate expectation for each day.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  And that expectation is that I put a JPG on the internet. And so if you kind of boil it down to like, it's not like every day needs to be this like masterpiece. It's like, it's not gonna like, it's like, things are going on, like, I don't have, you know, 365 masterpiece ideas per year. And so it is gonna be what it is, but the like momentum of the project kind of like continues it going and sort of, um, yeah. And I think just the act of sitting down, I think you have more ideas in you that you think, and I think that you don't have a lack of ideas. I have this sort of like saying, you don't have a lack of ideas, you have a lack of deadlines. And if you had more deadlines, you would be like, hmm, more things came out, look at that.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  And so, yeah, that's, that's a big sort of like ethos of the project.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Well, that's a great way to look at it. And the day you're referring to, I think, um, was March 11th, 2021. Christie's sold every day at something like $69 million. Congratulations. Now, most people kind of go, I declare victory, I get my sailboat, you know, it's awesome. You go, no, no, no, I'm gonna reinvest in the art community, I'm gonna reinvest in young artists. Say a little bit about what that moment was for you and then how it is you said, okay, this is how I'm going to help amplify young artists, art culture, et cetera, and what that springboard has been since then.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I got a lot of people being like, oh dude, you retired. And it's like, yeah, I retired from like 60 hour weeks to like 90 hour weeks. What the hell you're talking about retired? But part of that is like, I was doing this for free for many years. And so it's sort of like, well, now I'm doing it and people are like paying me a shit ton of money to do it. And so it's sort of like, okay, I'm not gonna stop now. And it's like, It to me was never, I didn't, it wasn't like I saw this big payday coming where it's like, oh, one day, you know, somebody's gonna pay a shitload of money for all these. It was like, you know, when the NFT thing prior to that, like, it took a lot of convincing from my fans to be like, NFTs are a thing you should look at. Because I was like, I wasn't super into crypto. It was like, I don't, this is like, I'm a digital artist.

• 8:21Speaker 00

  Like, what does this have to do with me? And then when it clicked, it was like, oh, wow, this could be that moment where people sort of like, look at digital art different. And other mediums have gone through this where they were like, not art, and then they were art.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  And I was like, this could be that moment. And so, you know, it, it sort of like clicked. But I think the idea and the ability that this money has, has sort of like, allowed me to open up a space and, and sort of like hire, you know, a, a team. And, and my brother quit his job and sort of like was a huge, huge piece of, of building out that team. Like, those are things that I feel just insanely blessed to be in a position to do because I recognize how, you know, insanely lucky and, and sort of like rare that opportunity is. And to me, it's also just like, like the opposite issue. I have to like, kind of like, okay, just like paste yourself here because there's so many things. And now with the AI and robotics and all those things, there's just so many things

• 9:19Speaker 00

  that I'm so jacked up about, let's try this. And so, uh, yeah.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  So we'll get to a lot of the future AI robotics, et cetera, including some quasi-ish dogs that I saw recently. Uh, but the thing you just mentioned, I think is a good moment here is, what was that aha moment on, ah, NFTs? Cause we're sitting here in the Node Foundation, you know, having this whole launch. What was this, NFTs, this could really be art.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Like, I'm not, like, I'm naturally a technologist, I'm naturally a software engineer, I'm naturally a creator, but I'm not naturally, like, I, I, I got convinced into being a crypto person with NFTs. And I saw the, the artistic light moment. What was that moment like? What was the realization?

• 10:02Speaker 00

  The realization was that, like,

• 10:07Speaker 00

  I considered what I was doing like art. Like that this was capital A art. I was sitting down, I was making a picture. Like, of course, that's art. What I didn't realize is that a lot of the traditional art world kind of didn't really look at it as art. It was just like, that's just like digital stuff. And like, that, that sort of like process, photography in general, in specifically, really went through that, and it took a long time. Photography was around since, you know, the mid 1800s, but it wasn't until the mid 1900s that it was looked at as like actual art. It was just like photography is just kind of like a craft,

• 10:51Speaker 00

  and you sort of like do it, but it's not like art. And then it was like, and it was like, it kind of clicked that this NFT thing was a way to own digital art in a way that was native to the medium. And there was a growing consensus around that this is how you sort of like collect art. And people were paying sums of money that I think were obviously more significant than digital art had ever been valued before. And so it was like, wait a second. This is that kind of like moment where people are like, oh, wait, this thing that actually makes up the visual language of almost everything you see. Because if you think about it, a website, a commercial, a TV, a video game, a billboard, all these things that you see,

• 11:36Speaker 00

  those are not made by painters. Those are not made by sculptors. Those are made by a person sitting in Photoshop, a digital artist, creating digital sort of like medium. So, everything we see is already like made by digital artists. Like, why would it not be an actually like respected medium, just like any other medium? Because it has all the same properties. It has craft, it has intention, it has message, it has nuance, it has all these things. So, this medium is, you know, NFTs is allowing scarcity. It's allowing people to sort of like collect it and view it in a way that, in my opinion, the way I always viewed it. You know what I mean?

• 12:17Speaker 01

  2009, you created a work called Subprime. And it was kind of like a way of, you know, commentary on the collapse of the housing market. What made you decide that an art piece was the right way to comment? What was the, you know, you're always a little hesitant about asking for intent from artists. Because I know that part of the art is like, the art is you experience it and it causes you to reflect and see the world in a certain way. And not as much to say, oh, here's a sentence I wanted you to remember when you're looking at it.

• 12:46Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  But say a little bit about the creation process and why that was a, how was that a mode of expression? And then, um, how was that kind of a part of the Beeple journey for this evolving stream of art?

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, so Subprime is a short film that I did in 2009. It was actually kind of the first short film that I did that used Cinema 4D. And it was really actually the first piece that kind of like blew up and sort of like went viral. And prior to that, I had, I had been putting a lot of time and energy into entering film festivals and getting tons of rejections. And it was just like, you know, at first I thought like I would enter film festivals just that had like big cash prizes. Because I was like, oh, well, this is for sure. I like, like, just give me the fucking check right now. And then I would get rejected, not even get into the film festival, much less like win the top prize. And I was like, okay, yeah, that's like.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Not working yet.

• 13:44Speaker 00

  No, yeah, this is not really the thing. Um, and so that was the first thing where I kind of like put a lot more sort of like attention on posting, you know, kind of like videos on the internet and what that could sort of like bring.

• 13:59Speaker 00

  But I think the message behind it was really, again, this was at the height of the sort of like housing crisis. And you kind of like see this house sort of like build more and more and more. And then at the end, there's kind of like a for sale sign on it. And it sort of, you know, was trying to be indicative of how we built up all of this sort of like thing. And then I was like, oh shit, there's no demand here. And then it kind of, you know, collapsed. But the things that I'm trying to do sort of like more broadly with the pieces that have any sort of political sort of like commentary or things like that is more so just like pose questions and sort of, you know, lately more in like a humorous way, sometimes some are not as more humorous. But just sort of like.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  Reflect back how things are, not trying to be like, here's how things should be. It's just like, here's how it is. What do you think about that? Um, and so in that way, I think the work is a lot more different than you see a lot of work in the traditional art world that is more pushing a specific message or outcome that they would like to see happen. And to me, again, there's no sort of like right answer, but that is more like on the scale of like propaganda in some point than sort of like, you know, again, there's, there's no right answer, but like, I'm more interested in just asking questions.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  And what is the, the way that, you know, you and the persona people are using art to ask the questions? Because I, by the way, I generally agree because part of the thing is how do we have a good dialogue? How do we have an evolving culture, society? It starts with questions. You should always start with questions. It's a much better, healthier thing. And then the dialogue is what eventually gets you to provisional answers. But so there's lots of ways to ask questions. You could simply go, how fucked up is this?

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  But you also go, no, no, here's, here's a tangible way. I've, I've, I've put invention and creativity and a shaping of our perceptions of our experience. What's some of the way of thinking about kind of how art helps ask those questions, helps us experience it as a fundamental human thing?

• 16:07Speaker 00

  I think to me, I think there's many ways that that can sort of like be accomplished and, and art can ask questions. I think the way I approach it is sort of like taking a theme that I see happening today, an idea or sort of like dialogue that I see occurring and sort of like extrapolating that out into the future in a very extreme way of like, sort of like, okay, here's what that, that might lead to 50 years from now in a crazy techno sort of like future. Um, and again, an absurd sort of like way. But yeah, it's,

• 16:48Speaker 00

  it's trying to like take themes that I see and like, okay, here's the ridiculous endpoint of that. If we sort of like go down this route or here's a very extreme kind of like version of that to maybe get people to look at the conversation that they're having in like a, a potentially different sort of like light.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Well, and obviously one of the things about being in very challenging times today. You have a very rich artistic landscape.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's no shortage of inspiration over, let's say, the last 10 years. And I think what's interesting about that, too, is like up until 2000, sort of like 19, I would say, like, most of the work, like, there's been pockets, like you said, like Subprime, and there's been a few other sort of like short films that were a bit more kind of like political. But a lot of the work has just been like abstract. And so it's it's actually fairly new, the sort of like very topical kind of like pieces that the everydays sort of like touch on now. But yeah, there's there's certainly.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  And is it is it moments of resonance? Like you go, oh, this is really important to extrapolate into the future? Or is it like a creative idea that comes to you? Like, like, for example, you know, you may have more recent pieces of this, but the one I'm most familiar with is the kind of quasi little dogs with, you know, internet titans faces going around taking pictures and and pooping them out. Right, which like what I found actually not only interesting was the art exhibit itself, but actually like seeing all the responses of the people around it. Like, was it an idea for that? Was it like, oh, I've got robotics, what can I do with it? Or was it, I want to comment on these kind of tech titans and how they're interfacing with society and what the image looks like?

• 18:40Speaker 01

  What's what's the kind of combination of ideas that come into that?

• 18:44Speaker 00

  It's a little of both. It's a little of sort of like looking at the things that we're sort of like playing with and kind of like putting together some pieces of sort of different things that we had at the studio and different kind of like tangential sort of like, you know, projects we had going. I have a vague idea of what I'm trying to say with the piece. And it's sort of like crystallizes more after I make the piece. That it's sort of like, I need to see the finished finished thing. And then I can kind of figure out like, OK, what what is a message that this could sort of like impart? But it's it usually doesn't. It definitely doesn't start as like a fully formed like, OK, we're going to have the dogs.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  It's it's much more like gray and I need to like experiment and see a bunch of things and like, that's not really the thing. Like, I definitely, it's not just like a wake up and it's like. Boom, fully formed idea. Okay, let's get to work, boys. Like, it's, it's really like, "Okay, what about this? No." And like, I'm constantly like trying things and be like, "No, no, no." And like, because at the end of the day, I'm trying to make something that I have not seen before. And like, that, I think, is the most important thing. And it's really hard to do. It's really hard to do, on a deep level, make something that you've never seen before.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  Um, and I think that is actually the only sort of like thing that an artist should do. And from there, how people interpret it, I think it, it will sort of like do that. But if you look at the like art that has stood the like test of time, all of it was stuff that people had not seen before. And then they were like, and at first they were like, "That's not art." And then they were sort of like, "Okay, yeah, I guess. I see how that could be art." And it slowly like inched forward the people's sort of like view of what art could be. And I think that's what I'm sort of like trying to kind of like make. And so, the robot dogs hopefully were something that was like, "Not seen that before."

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Well, not only not seen it before, and it had a kind of a set of internet memes, which also created a bunch of different echoes. But like, when I was watching it at the, was really fascinating to watch people interacting with it. It's almost like socialist theater. Like, the fact that it was designed in this kind of interactive way of, would, you know, would the Bezos dog go over and look at somebody and then, you know?

• 21:10Speaker 00

  What was interesting about that is, people, and I think this, this speaks to like a, a sort of like broader conversation that is going to become very, very relevant very quickly here, is the dogs weren't looking at people. The dogs were literally just like walking around, trying not to bump into each other. And people like looked at them and they were like, "It's looking at me and like blah blah." It's like, "I promise you it is not looking at you. The script does not have, it's not looking at you at all." But people like anthropomorphize all these things.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  This is also the art process.

• 21:45Speaker 00

  This is also the art process, but I think it's also like that's a bigger conversation about sort of like AI that I want to have and I think is very important and is going to lead us into some weird places is we're anthropomorphizing technology and AI specifically. And I think that is going to be, lead us into very weird places. You hear people sometimes say things like AI doesn't have a soul.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  And it's like, well, what the fuck are you talking about? Of course it doesn't have a soul. It's a computer program. Like the fact that you're even saying that is like kind of insane.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  And it shows how crazy advanced it is that you're like, that's not human. It's again, no, it's not human. Like have you ever said your refrigerator didn't have a soul? Like what the fuck are you talking about?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  And so I think that's going to continue as AI becomes more and more human like. And it is going to lead to very weird things where people are trying to assign human rights and human like things to machines that

• 22:48Speaker 00

  I don't know. I'm not sure we should do that, but like again, I don't, it's gonna, shit's gonna get weird.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  So I agree we shouldn't. One of the classic ones is people say, oh, this AI agent's my friend. It's like, no, a friend is a two directional relationship. The AI agent can't be your friend yet. But despite that, like one of the things like, there's a, there's a group of CEOs that I have dinner with every so often here in Silicon Valley and one of our discussion topics last night was that some people have been marrying.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  I just saw, yeah.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Yes. And you're like, ah, okay.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  It's like, I don't know. Like it's kind of like, that just to me is so bizarre.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  And it's just kind of like. And I think that that's sort of like another theme in my artwork is that I think the future is going to be so weird because these technologies are moving faster than they're moving faster and faster and they're sort of like intertwining in ways that we can't sort of like predict. And I think even the the NFT thing and sort of what happened with me with this $69 million sale was a mixture of social media suddenly allowing this kid from Wisconsin to amass a following of 2 million people with no sort of like vetting from the outside traditional art world.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  And then this other crypto technology coming along and sort of like allowing, you know, this sort of like sale to happen and and then something weird happens from it. And so I think we're going to see a lot more sort of like weird intertwining of like technologies.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  So what is some of the ways where AI, internet, etc. has been capturing your attention for questions, right? So one of them are obviously the over anthropomorphification, right? It's the, oh, it's my friend. Oh, it's my spouse. Like, like, OK, I think you need to learn other human beings a little bit better. It's not just the mistake of the AI. It's a mistake of of human beings and so forth. But what are the other ways where you go, OK, this is changing our landscape into the weird? And how do we ask the right questions to make the weird more good than bad?

• 25:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a good question. Um, it's it's so pervasive in, you know, every sort of like aspect of of sort of like society. And I think it's going to just continue to sort of like grow. It's really, to me, very hard to kind of like wrap my head around even where to begin with something like that because it's very hard to like compartmentalize, you know, like, oh, it's just going to affect this thing or it's just going to affect that. And I think I don't see enough people who are both very excited by the possibilities of it and also a little like

• 25:42Speaker 00

  pretty quick here guys who are like, I think this is going to be very disruptive.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:48Speaker 00

  Like the chances of it like, you know, getting real bad are like definitely non-zero to me. But at the same time, I'm like, I mean, we're literally sitting behind an AI sculpture that I've got. And it's like, oh, man, look, I can do this thing now. Like the ability of like, you know, possibilities. It's allowed me to make work that I can express myself in different ways and and sort of like, you know, make things, like I said, that I've never seen before is like immense. So I think it's really, I just wish there was more people who are approaching it on in a much more nuanced way.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, curious, hopefully optimistic, but also very attuned to. It's a very unusual and weird landscape. What are some of the ways that you engage with AI in your creative process, in your construction process? What have you found to be interesting and useful? What have you found to be eh, you know?

• 26:45Speaker 00

  There's, I mean, there's quite a lot of of sort of like different ways. For the everydays, I use it, you know, very extensively on the everydays. This is the first year, actually, this where I'm I'm using solely sort of like AI before I'd I'd kind of like been incorporating it more and more over the last sort of like two, three years. But this is the first year where I'm like, OK, what if I just tried just doing sort of like AI as the like everydays? And so that's one way, obviously, the sort of like sculptures behind us in terms of, you know, sort of like the programs we're able to write and sort of like the the development we're able to do with the studio. It's been, you know, insane how much we're able to sort of, you know, lean on this stuff to sort of like program stuff.

• 27:28Speaker 00

  The robot dogs were using AI to sort of like look to, you know, they're taking pictures and then ranking the pictures for how good they were and then, you know, using sort of like a style transfer thing to do that. And then the entire process of all the code. You know, underpin that was all written by AI too. Um, so it's really, I mean, we've done speech things at the, the studio to do that. We just did a, uh, sort of AI kind of like performance with Danny McBride a few months ago at the studio where we had all kinds of different sort of like things. We've used, um, you know, to make short films and, and sort of like all different types of like video as well.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  And so honestly, like, I would say almost every sort of like, you know, kind of aspect of, of generative AI from coding to video to image making to, you know, sound. We've, I, I've touched on all of it. I've got 60 bazillion subscriptions. If you've made any sort of AI thing that is a subscription, I promise you I have the like gold tier and I probably used it like three times.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Well, it's part of the art expression. So, because part of what we do on Possible and Podcast is we're trying to help people grasp their agency, see how technology can help shape a more human future. Um, it's part of the reason why we love your art, uh, the questions you're asking, like satire is a very important part of that. It's not to say it's all like seeing the good, the bad and the weird is extremely important. So how would you kind of, kind of help people understand how AI can help you with more human expression? Like, what's the thing you would say, hey, this is the way that you can take your agency, grasp it, use it for creativity, use it for explaining, for, for exploring humanity?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  What would be the, the kind of like, here's, here's been my path so far and here's some notes to all these younger artists that you help?

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it is something and I feel very. It's tough because there's no right answers with art. And so people are like, I don't like this. I don't like, want to do it. They're not wrong, but it is going to be very hard, especially if they want to work in a commercial world, to continue to work.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Because the speed at which it can allow you to sort of like makes things is just absolutely unprecedented and you just can't keep up. And so to me, it really is purely a tool. It does not have a soul. It is a tool which I can use to express many different ideas that would otherwise take an insane amount of time and we just wouldn't do it. Like, we actually had a CryptoPunks, you know, event a couple of months ago at the studio or whatever, and we made this little CryptoPunks game that, you know, you could match the traits or whatever. We just wouldn't have done that without AI. Like, it wouldn't have been like, okay, let's spend, you know, hire a bunch of developers and spend, you know, fifty thousand dollars to make this little like thing that's just a small part of the... We just wouldn't have done it.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Like, and so, in that case, it allowed us to do a thing that, you know, is engaging and fun and like, you know, an expressive thing that otherwise just wouldn't have happened. And so, to me, that's what I'm sort of like interested in. I'm interested in not necessarily using it as a shortcut, but unlocking things that you couldn't do. This sculpture behind us uses AI and it uses it in a way where people upload pictures and are able to sort of like influence future versions of the box. That would not have been possible without AI. AI is like deeply in the like material of how this artwork functions.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  And so, I think coming up with those ways to look at AI as allowing you to not just be lazy and do less, but how can you do more? And I think that really is the sort of like crux of it. If you look at AI as a way for humans to do less, you will be very fearful of it.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  If you look at AI as a way for humans to do more, you will be inspired by it. And like, that's the thing I wish people could sort of like take away with this tool.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Well, and precisely, that is a great way of putting it, is what we're trying to do is convert fear into curiosity.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Right? So it's like, don't have fear, have curiosity about what you can do. And actually, listening to your comments, which I think are awesome, it actually makes me think of AI as artistic intelligence, right? As the AI, as like one of the things you, as part of grasping that agency is something you can actually do in terms of it. And I think it's, it's, it's, you know, your work is one of the, the kind of the, the leading lights, even in a light sculpture for, for doing that. What are some of the lines of kind of call it, uh, human experience that are currently captivating your attention as, as things to explore now that we're in this, this very beginning of AI?

• 32:27Speaker 00

  Um, I, I think it really, I don't know. It's so good at visualizing different things that just you couldn't do before. And I hear the people talk about like, one of the, the criticisms of it is it's just regurgitating things and it's not making anything new. It's like, that's not true. Like there's many things that I've seen before where it's like, you could not do that before.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Or minimally, it would be so expensive to do, nobody would do it.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:00Speaker 00

  And so it's like, like shots where it's like, okay, that shot is this weird, absurd thing. The only people who prior to AI could do that would be like ILM. And they're probably not gonna spend, you know, $2 million to make this 20 second clip of Donald Trump, blah, blah, blah, whatever, da, da, da, da, da. You know, and so it's like, that's a new thing. And so I think, you know, in terms of being able to be more expressive about the sort of like human experience, I think we're at the absolute sort of like beginnings of what is possible. And I think we will only continue to find more and more things that, that sort of like allow people to express themselves because.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  This brand new tool didn't take away any other tools before it. It's like you can still do all of the things you could before, but now you can also do this.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:53Speaker 00

  And so I think looking at it as sort of like, you know, instead of drawing a picture in an afternoon, you could write a whole book. You could, you know, you or write a whole like kids book or whatever. And so it's like, instead of, you know, writing a kid's book, you could make a short film of that book, like make an animated series of that book. You know what I mean? And so it's like, all these things are just sort of like, it's, it's just allowing you to do more. And so, yeah.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Well, and part of it is you can now create like a hundred different versions and you can go, hey, three, 17 and 26 all have interesting things. Now I'm going to take those out and the, and the speed at which you're iterating and the ability to do like micro things like, hey, we're going to do a CryptoPunks thing. I mean, here we are at Node's launch for, you know, your art and for CryptoPunks. It's like, all of a sudden, all kinds of CryptoPunk things become, you know, possible.

• 34:50Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. And, and I think like it's, I, I get that it's tough if your sort of like job and what you do was involved in sort of like the craft of that. And it does, that's the disruptive part that I have a lot of empathy for people who are, you know, many times worked their entire life to build up a skill that that skill is kind of like now in the hands of many people who didn't put in all of that time. And so I get that, but I think it's not going away.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  Like it's just not. And so it's kind of like adapting to this new reality and sort of like looking at it. I think a lot of times it's, I, I picture it as sort of like, looking at it as like, now you're the boss of you.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  And so you just moved up one layer in the sort of like, the, the kind of like hierarchy of sort of like abstract thinking where it's like, now picture you had like a million U's under you. And what would you do with a team of U's to do different things? And like, that's, that's, you know, what to me makes it an inspiring sort of like thing that it's like, it's like, now I feel like I have a team of artists that I'm like able to sort of like direct like that. And like, now what can we do?

• 36:01Speaker 01

  That sounds exactly right. What has worked and not worked so far? Cause I'm sure you've experimented with this. Going to various of these, you know, all the gold tier subscriptions and all the different AI services and said, make me an X like Beeple would. And, and, and what has been inspiring so far that then creates self reinforcing improvement on your quest for questions and satire and, and originality and what has been eh, I'm, by the way, I've done this as like, how would Reid Hoffman make money investing in AI? And most of it, those answers suck. But it's like, but where have you discovered things that you went, ooh, this was an interesting part for the, the, the, as a, as a team of Beeple's working on things?

• 36:41Speaker 00

  It makes things, I would say it's, it's roughly the same thing, that it's like, most of the time, it's like, oh, make something a Beeple, it's like, nah, it's like, it's pretty meh.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Um, but what I think is interesting about that is had this technology not occurred, I don't know that it would actually be that meh. And so what I think this, that people are sort of like not, kind of like getting, and I think they, they sort of like, well, this is, you know, killing creativity or whatever. I think it's completely the opposite. I think everybody's like, expectations went way up. Because now, I, I see things all the time where it's just like a pretty picture, that before if I would have saw it, I would have been like, holy shit, this is like amazing, like, I know the like, time and energy and like, work that would have like, put, put into it. And now I see it and it's like, nah, it's fine. It's like, whatever.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Seen a lot of it.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  It's like, maybe if you would have saw those ideas of like, what would Reid Hoffman, blah, blah, blah, and you had saw those like, seven years ago, it would have been like, these are pretty good ideas. Like, it's like, I don't know, maybe we should look into some of this stuff. Now you see it and you're like, nah, that sucks. Like, it's like, everybody's expectations went way higher and like, the bar for creativity now, to cut through the noise of everything is actually much higher than it was five years ago.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yes, and that's called progress. Which is great.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  I think it is.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yep. How much do you sweat the which parts of it are me and which parts that are the AI? Like, you know, in things like, you know, Diffuse Control, which I think just recently, you know, did its run in LA. And I think now is here in the node. How much do you kind of think, like, does the question matter? Which parts of it, like, the AI tools bringing it and which parts people's bringing? Or does it, is it like, no, no, the thing that matters is that high watermark of originality and asking the question and being satirical and in drawing that line to that possible very weird future?

• 38:42Speaker 00

  I think that's a good question. I don't sweat it that much. Because I think it's, it's more like, is this interesting? And it's sort of like, if you leaned too much on AI, then there's a high chance it won't be that interesting. Versus if you actually came up with something very novel to ask AI to do, then that's the interesting thing. You gave it a very interesting prompt to be like, do this. And then when it did the thing,

• 39:23Speaker 00

  maybe you did rely hugely on AI for the actual production of it. But what's actually interesting is the prompt. Because again, anybody can type any bullshit into AI and you're gonna get something and be like, nah, it's fine, whatever. Like, it's not that interesting.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  Just like, everybody has cameras. Everybody takes pictures. Are you a photographer? I'm not, and I take a lot of pictures. But I would never consider myself a photographer. And I think with art, it's going to be the same thing. Everybody's gonna be prompting shit and like, making all kinds of digital art. That doesn't mean they're digital artists and nobody's gonna be interested in it, almost definitely. And so I think it really comes down to... What is the intent? What have you brought to it to not just have it be something that is some very average thing that anybody sort of like could have come up with?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  So, since we're sitting here at kind of the opening of the Node Foundation and Edition New York, it's CryptoPunks. Are you working on anything currently in the CryptoPunks universe?

• 40:29Speaker 00

  Um, I am not working on anything in the CryptoPunks universe. I do, we did just do a sort of like bigger meetup just a few months ago and at the studio in Charleston. And it is something where I view CryptoPunks as just this absolute sort of like masterpiece that is one of those artworks that completely checks the box of expanding your view of what art could be. And I think people, it's, it's, to me, so far ahead of it's sort of like time that I think it's going to take, you know, a huge amount of time for people to kind of like fully sort of like grasp how crazy it was.

• 41:14Speaker 00

  And even because I came so relatively late to NFTs, like so many of the things that I take for granted in terms of the infrastructure, I mean, just the fact that there was no marketplace. Like, this is like, I mean, the effect that it has had on my artwork and sort of digital art in general just cannot be, you know, overstated. And so to have a work, you know, with the CryptoPunks show here is such a like huge, huge honor.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  Yep. And I myself, by the way, I'm relative, I vaguely tracked that there were CryptoPunks, but it was only recently in a trip to Bhutan with, you know, Sean, our mutual friend and some others, that I was like, because I was like, oh no, this NFT thing is going to come back in various interesting ways. You know, it kind of had a commercial spike and then drop. But I think, no, no, actually, in fact, there's an enduring nature to the art part of it. And obviously, you, Sean, et cetera, not me, are expert on it. And so I recently got a CryptoPunk.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  Yes, there it is.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  So it's like, you know, hey, no shame. Late joining of the community, but it's still like, like this is the because the inner place of where's identity play in, where's art play in? Where does community play in? How is it a collective expression of I am the we? And we're all playing into it. It all fascinate me. And it's part of the reason I was like, hey, you're going to be down here. Let's do a podcast. Let's start doing this because that exploration of what's possible in human creation and human expression and human community and human connection is, I think, like, one of the things where we grasp our agency and do. And I think that's one of the things that art does so critically,

• 43:02Speaker 01

  which is the reason. So when you're helping kind of then, you know, and I'm much older than you. So, you know, the younger artists, but you're still young in my, in my, in my age clock. What's the kind of things you're trying to hope that their way that they will also help bring art into culture and society? And what's the ways of that kind of asking the question about the weird, about being, you know, kind of grasping technology as being human? What's some of the stuff you're doing to try to encourage the next generation?

• 43:38Speaker 00

  I think it's really just to encourage the next generation to, you know, embrace this technology and sort of like be, look at it as a tool to express yourselves and sort of like, you know, unlock a amount of work that you just would not have been able to sort of like do otherwise. And sort of, I've talked to sort of like, you know, college students a few times and it's not, there's, there is unfortunately still a percentage of people who think this is like an opt out thing. And it's sort of like, hmm. It's like, it's, I disagree that this is going to be an opt out thing if you would like to work in like

• 44:23Speaker 01

  You could decide to never get in a car.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  But it's very hard.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  You can definitely do that. You can decide, I don't do email.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:30Speaker 00

  You can do that, like, but it.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  It's gonna be hard to operate.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  There is a certain, you know, amount of sort of like possibilities that will be closed off to you from that choice. And so just that is, is kind of like, one of the things that I've really sort of like tried. But I, I think that's where the like, kind of like worry comes in because it's sort of like, it's moving so fast. I'm very thankful and feel very sort of like blessed to be, you know, kind of like in this position and not a 20 year old starting out and being like, what am I gonna do for a career? And it's sort of like, hmm, I don't know what you are going to do for a career if I'm being totally honest.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  And I think that's a, a conversation too, that I feel like we should be having more, that it's like, what are we going to do here? But yeah, I don't know.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Well, what I think is it's, it's more open because of a time disruption. My very first book was The Startup of You, which is how everyone needs to think of their career, even if they're gonna go get jobs and never start a company, as an entrepreneur. It's entrepreneurial, it's creative. And that's actually part of the reason why I think your particular, like, artist paths are always super hard, long in the desert, you know, and almost always if they're any good, trailblazing. And so you could like go through the desert for a long time before you suddenly find an NFT's Christie's Oasis. Right? And then that kind of starts compounding. But that's more of what everyone's careers look like. So it's gotta approach it like an entrepreneur and also take agency in it.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Don't go, oh my God, I thought I could just apply for a job at the local company and then just do that. It's like, yeah, that's less of the.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Future universe, but don't go, oh my God, life sucks because of that. Go, there's opportunity.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  I can be creative, I can do something and grab the agency in terms of, in terms of what you're trying to do. And I think among the, the things that I think great artistic expressions do is to show, well, this is something, this is an example of it.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  An example of conversation.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  100% and that's the thing I also sort of, that's a great point and something that I really try and impress on kids too is like, just go do the thing, like. Don't wait for somebody to pay you to do the thing, like just go do the thing. And like I did so many projects for free and so many projects that it was just like, I love doing this thing, like, you know, a- and it was really the art in general, like I didn't honestly think it was ever gonna sort of like be a job. It was just like, I'm gonna do web design. I'm gonna put all my sort of like real energy and passion to sort of like creating art, but sort of like that's just a side thing and like if it never makes money, whatever. I like, I love doing it.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  And so like finding that thing that you love doing, that you don't need somebody to pay you to do. And sort of like really sort of like putting your sort of like on to that, I think is is a huge, huge thing, um, you know, for for sort of like young people to sort of like take away.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  So one of the things I've also noticed is you've gotten smart about, like in like learned over time and gotten smart about like, oh, social distribution is part of what encounters and makes the question be heard, right? Gets the interest raised and paid attention to. So how much does the dynamic of that kind of social distribution play into your creation process, to your launch process? I mean, this is like very parallel to something I do with companies, where you say, look, figure out your go to market equally with figuring out your product. That's what I tell consumer and entrepreneurs. So where does that fit in your creative process and your launch process?

• 48:23Speaker 01

  How how much of it's deliberate? How much of it's accidental? How much is I just have a platform now and it works?

• 48:29Speaker 00

  No, it's very deliberate and it's always been sort of like deliberate. It's been a sort of like conscious choice to make, um...

• 48:37Speaker 00

  Design choices that would make my work sort of like more seen. And again, sort of like coming up with, you know, coming up through sort of like web design, I was very, you know, aware of sort of search engine optimization. And so when I started posting, you know, work on social media, I realized very quickly that it's like, okay, if I follow some of these rules, that I can sort of like, you know, get more sort of like reach and get more people to see this. And so it really, you know, is something I kind of like think a lot about in terms of, you know, trying to break through the sort of like attention economy and kind of being able to sort of like get this stuff seen. And again, there's no right or wrong answers, but to me, I am trying to kind of like have

• 49:22Speaker 00

  a dialogue with these things and want them to be part of sort of like a conversation. And so if people don't see it, then that's very hard to have that conversation. And so it really does play a lot into many design considerations because I'm trying to work, make things that are very visceral and can cut through that noise, which is very, very hard to do. And so, yeah, it really is something that I'm kind of like, okay, is this artwork something that is going to be, you know, similar to the dog, something that you're immediately like, whoa, what the hell?

• 50:03Speaker 00

  And I think if you are trying to do something that people have not seen before, that naturally kind of like goes in hand in hand. Because the things that most often go viral are things that people have not seen before. It's like, oh, did you see the blah, blah, blah? That blah, blah, blah is never something that everybody's seen before. Yes, yes. It is by pure virtue, virtue of the fact that it went sort of like viral, it is something novel. And so, yeah, it's something that I'm sort of like acutely aware of. And I think is actually weirdly not that much of a concern in much of the traditional art world. I feel like that's not, like, they're just like, whatever, I don't give a shit if people see this.

• 50:48Speaker 00

  And like... It seems kind of like pretentious in a way that it's like, this is so brilliant, like, either you'll fucking like, see it and get it, or like, you just won't. And it's just kind of like, okay, well, good luck with that.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Well, I think it answers the Zen koan of like, a tree falls in a forest, no one dared to hear it. It's like, fine, you can ask these philosophical questions about sound, but if there's a piece of art that is never seen, never engaged with, you know, that's nice, what's the point? Like, the point is to ask the question, the point is to have the experience, the point is to, to, to be, to be on that journey of what is the journey of human experience?

• 51:29Speaker 00

  A hundred percent, and I don't, you don't always need to love it, but I would rather it evoke some sort of like emotion in you. I would rather you either love it or hate it than just be like, meh, that's whatever, like, that you can like, easily ignore it. And so, yeah, it's definitely a consideration when I'm making art.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, and then, so this, you know, given we're in the Node Foundation, it's a new, new organization entity. So one thing is, okay, art should evolve for thinking about how does that question get asked through the various media? How does the dialogue, the, the discussion happen? How does the encountering of the question? How does the encountering of the satire? How does encountering the perspective happen? How do you think museums should evolve? Like, because, because, like, art should evolve in all these ways, but how should museums evolve as well?

• 52:16Speaker 00

  I think museums have a massive opportunity to be more, through digital art, more inclusive in a way that's,

• 52:31Speaker 00

  what's the word I'm looking for? Sort of like, objectively, like, more inclusive. In that, they could, because it is, by virtue of how the medium works, it allows for a lot more sort of like voices to be sort of like shown. And so, I think you will see museums sort of like doing that. Very easy, sort of like, concrete example is, if you hang a very nice screen in a museum, you can show thousands of artists from the local community, versus if you wanted to have a group show with... Thousands of sort of like things, physical things that needed to be sort of like shipped

• 53:14Speaker 00

  in from all over the world or whatever, that's really hard, it's really expensive, it's sort of like, logistically, a massive undertaking. And so in that way, I think, digital technologies will really allow a lot more sort of like, you know, kind of like voices to be at the sort of like table. And I think, what I would love to see museums do is, again, sort of like focus on that attention economy, maybe a little bit more. And not to the point where they just become, you know, a sort of like, physical Instagram, but I think there's a, maybe a little bit more of a sort of like happy medium of kind of like, meeting people where they are and trying to, sort of like, make sure we're kind of like, programming.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  And I think, using digital technologies that I think are more visceral and, and maybe accepting and understanding that like, I mean, I hate to say it, my kids grew up with like iPads and, and sort of like shit like that, and so it's like, they, it takes a little bit more to like, you know, to, for them to have a sort of like, an emotional kind of like, connection with a piece. And so, I'd really love to see museums kind of like, be more, you know, part of, of more current conversations too. Because the, the sort of like, speed that a lot of museums work at, is, that's been another challenge, coming from the sort of like, digital world where it's like, I make

• 54:44Speaker 00

  something, I put it out immediately when I want to. And then it's like, we talk to museums and it's like, okay, so 2028, and it's like, 2028, it's like, what are you fucking shitting me? I'm not even gonna give a shit about this artwork in 2028, I'm gonna be, four other things that I made, whatever. And so it's just like-

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Probably thirty of them.

• 54:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so it's like, I, I would love to see a bit more sort of like, you know, recognizing how fast culture and how fast things are moving, and trying to kind of like, be able to be part of those conversations, and closer to real time than they are now.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Modern time.

• 55:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, modern.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  So, rapid fire, questions we ask, all of our guests, you can answer at any length.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  First one, is there a movie, song, or book, that fills you with optimism for the future?

• 55:34Speaker 00

  No.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Not one?

• 55:39Speaker 00

  Uh, I need, maybe not, I don't know about optimism, but like, I don't know. Like, I guess, for the future.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. For where we're going, for the path.

• 55:51Speaker 00

  I don't know, not really, to be honest.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  You strike me as a very optimistic person, this is surprising to me.

• 55:57Speaker 00

  More like, I wouldn't say optimistic, like, what is one you have?

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Uh, okay, so.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  Give me a, give me a, uh.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  I'll give you a couple of examples, so, um, so one.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  Give me a movie, I don't read any books. I'm not that much of a book reader, sorry.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I actually think there's elements of the Murderbot, Apple Television series. That does that, highly recommended.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  Okay, I'll watch that, Murderbot.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  How about, uh, well, actually, in fact, like, this is a little bit, this is, this is ten, fifteen years old, but like, some of the best television I think I've ever seen was the Benedict Cumberbatch, Sherlock Holmes. The Sherlock one, right, because that kind of question of how you can take this old thing and make it very present, future, it's like a through line of humanism.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Right, would be an example. Um, most technology films are, you know, like, oh, look, the AI is coming to get you.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what I was, that's right, yeah, okay, yeah.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Um, but like, for example, even in some of the written science fiction, like, uh, Ian Banks has a culture series, which is, you know, how does AI and human beings help create the future together? Which, you know, even with dramatic tension and so forth, I'd like to see more of.

• 57:10Speaker 00

  I would like to see something, I feel like it's hard to do something optimistic that doesn't come off like.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Too Pollyannaish?

• 57:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, too like weird, because I don't think, I don't necessarily think the future is going to be good or bad. I think the future is going to be. Much like it is now. Like, is, is, or is, is today worse or better than 50 years ago? I mean, it depends on how you look. I could find many ways to be like, it's much better. Inframortality rates and, and sort of all kinds of, of metrics to, to show that the world is like much better. But many people don't view it like that. They see, you know, things that are not as good. And like, I could also find, you know, metrics where it's like, you know, suicide rates and

• 58:01Speaker 00

  blah, blah, blah, that are like, no, that's not great. And so I think it's going to be like that in the future. And so, I don't know, maybe that's just how I like view things, that it's not necessarily optimistic.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  So, so for me, so I actually think it will be better. I think 50 years is better. It doesn't mean it's better than everything. It doesn't mean that there are some things that haven't gotten worse, which we either have to improve or not. And by the way, I think precisely the reason why, you know, your work and work like yours of asking the question is part of that, how, how, how do we have a better path?

• 58:31Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Right? It's never perfectly better.

• 58:34Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Well, that's cool. So where do you see, this may be another challenging question.

• 58:39Speaker 00

  That was the, I'm sorry, that was the worst rapid fire answer in the history of this podcast. Shut her down, boys.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  No, no, or promoter, right? It's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's exactly right. Where do you see real progress happening outside your industry?

• 58:56Speaker 00

  Um, I mean, I think there's real progress in, in sort of like many different things, you know, like we had talked about with, with sort of like medicine and, and kind of like people, like human rights and things like that. I think, you know, much of that is actually getting better. Again, if you're looking at like, sort of like longer time scale. So I think I am very, you know, I don't know. I guess optimistic is like, uh, maybe, it's, it's still like realistic, I feel like, or like pragmatic or whatever. But I, I think there are many different ways you can look at it about things, you know, progressing.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  So here's a, here's one of our favorite questions, which is, what's a question that you wish people would ask you more often?

• 59:43Speaker 00

  That is a good question. Um, wow, I do, um, what is a question?

• 59:57Speaker 00

  I think sometimes there's questions, there's a lot of focus on sort of like the NFT technology stuff. Like the questions you asked were really good because they were a lot, so much more about the like art than the like technology and probably because you come from the technology, like, okay, I understand. But like a lot of times in the like art world, they're so focused on the technology and it's kind of like, wow, you really didn't ask me that much about the actual sort of like art. And it's like, that's weird. It's like most of the time like, so this is on blockchain. So yeah, I guess I wish the art world would talk more about art.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Art with the technology, not the technology.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, and our final very optimistic question.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  If everything breaks humanity's way over the next 15 years, what's the first step to get there?

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  What is the first step to get there? That is a good question. I think it is, I don't know. It's just, I think the first step to get there is recognizing that we might not get there. I think that the good things will come almost sort of like automatically if we build this crazy thing that can like answer all of our questions. The good things, it will just be like, well, you just answer, how do we solve cancer? There you go, cancer solved. The bad things will also come automatically unless we like try and mitigate for those.

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  So I almost think we need like a kind of like more pessimistic view in like weirdly, ironically, in some sense, to like mitigate those bad things from kind of like, you know, overpowering the good things that will automatically just stop.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Some pessimism to power optimism.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Mike, it's been a great pleasure. I look forward to our next conversation.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  Thank you, sir. Thank you.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Possible is produced by Palette Media. It's hosted by Ari Finger and me, Reid Hoffman. Our showrunner is Sean Young. Possible is produced by Tenasi Delos, Katie Sanders, Spencer Strasmore, Imo Zoo. Trent Barboza and Tifadzwa Nimarundwe.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Special thanks to Surya Yalimanchili, Sayida Sapieva, Ian Alice, Greg Beato, Parth Patel, and Ben Ralas.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  A big thanks to Scott Winkelman, Sean Bonner, Natalie Stone, Becky Kleiner, and the rest of the team at the Node Foundation.