Gina Raimondo on AI, government, and commerce

How can the U. S. government support the use of AI to stimulate innovation, bring healthcare to people more effectively, and educate people more equitably—all while thoughtfully navigating technology’s impact on people’s way of life? On this week’s episode, Reid and Aria sit down with U. S. Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo to discuss her work leading the government’s efforts to minimize the risks and maximize the benefits of AI for Americans. She gets into the federal government’s approach to AI innovation and safety, emphasizing the importance of global partnerships. Plus, she shares how the U. S. can make hardware “sexy” again—and why it matters. Read the transcript of this episode here: https://www.possible.fm/podcasts/raimondo For more info on the podcast and transcripts of all the episodes, visit https://www.possible.fm/podcast/ Topics: 3:30 - Hellos and intros 6:44 - Hopes and goals for American citizens 9:34 - America’s approach to AI compared to its approach to other digital innovations 14:15 - How the U. S. can “make building hardware sexy again” 18:21 - International cooperation on AI 21:39 - How technology leaders can contribute to private-public partnerships 24:14 - What excites Secretary Raimondo most right now 26:35 - How industry can relieve anxiety about job security in an AI-world Select mentions: AI Safety Institute CHIPS Act Regional Technology and Innovation Hubs (Tech Hubs) Possible is an award-winning podcast that sketches out the brightest version of the future—and what it will take to get there. Most of all, it asks: what if, in the future, everything breaks humanity's way? Tune in for grounded and speculative takes on how technology—and, in particular, AI—is inspiring change and transforming the future. Hosted by Reid Hoffman and Aria Finger, each episode features an interview with an ambitious builder or deep thinker on a topic, from art to geopolitics and from healthcare to education. These conversations also showcase another kind of guest: AI. Whether it's Inflection’s Pi, OpenAI’s ChatGPT or other AI tools, each episode will use AI to enhance and advance our discussion about what humanity could possibly get right if we leverage technology—and our collective effort—effectively.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Right now, I assess that most Americans are more scared about AI than they are excited about AI. When you talk to the everyday American about their life, their job, their job security, will their kids be able to get a job, the anxiety is pretty high. Even if AI could replace every lawyer, and I'm not saying it could, but let's say even if it could, how does that serve our country?

• 0:39Reid Hoffman?

  Hi, I'm Reid Hoffman.

• 0:41Aria Finger?

  And I'm Aria Finkler.

• 0:43Reid Hoffman?

  We want to know what happens if, in the future, everything breaks humanity's way? What we can possibly get right if we leverage technology like AI and our collective effort effectively?

• 0:55Aria Finger?

  We're speaking with technologists, ambitious builders, and deep thinkers across many fields: AI, geopolitics, media, healthcare, education, and more.

• 1:05Reid Hoffman?

  These conversations showcase another kind of guest, whether it's Inflection's Pi, OpenAI's GPT-4, or other AI tools. Each episode, we use AI to enhance and advance our discussion.

• 1:17Aria Finger?

  In each episode, we seek out the brightest version of the future and learn what it'll take to get there.

• 1:24Reid Hoffman?

  This is possible.

• 1:32Aria Finger?

  Even if you aren't 100% up to speed on artificial intelligence, you know that AI as a technology is evolving quickly. Let's talk about what that means. The processing power of AI systems has been doubling every six months since 2010, and the same amount of processing power is going further and further than before. Every nine months, better algorithms essentially double AI systems' processing efficiency. That's twice the power, going twice as far on very short timelines.

• 2:07Reid Hoffman?

  When we think of industries known for rapidly adapting to technological innovation, government is not generally at the top of the list. Yet our government plays an incredibly critical role in shaping our future. American businesses depend on clear guidelines to compete on a global stage. Our workforce depends on equitable rules and regulations. And our national security depends on staying ahead of, or at least in line with, the international curve.

• 2:37Aria Finger?

  Today, we are so excited to be sitting down with U.S. Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo, who works to shape America's AI policies on both the domestic and international levels. With a career that spans law, venture capital, and politics, Secretary Gina Raimondo has been instrumental in driving AI initiatives, including the recent expansion of the U.S. AI Safety Institute leadership team.

• 3:03Reid Hoffman?

  Adept in navigating the intersection of technology, commerce, and public policy, she has overseen the implementation of President Biden's executive order on AI. Her work is focused on ensuring that AI development is safe, trustworthy, and beneficial for all Americans.

• 3:21Aria Finger?

  And now here's our conversation with Secretary Gina Raimondo.

• 3:30Reid Hoffman?

  Secretary Raimondo, it is awesome to have you on the Possible Podcast. Tell us a little bit about the kind of setting the landscape. What is the federal government's current approach with Guard AI? What do you foresee as the next major action from the federal government AI? And how might everyday Americans experience the impact of these developments?

• 3:50Speaker 00

  I think what, when we think about how the federal government's approaching AI, what I'm trying to do is make sure that we have as much focus on enabling innovation as we do on keeping a lid on what's dangerous. And those are the two buckets of our work. So on the keeping a lid on what's dangerous, I'll just throw out a few things that we can go wherever you want to go. Here at the Commerce Department, I'm right now in the process of standing up an AI Safety Institute. Whose job and staffing with primarily scientists and engineers to really get into

• 4:34Speaker 00

  the science of AI to figure out, you know, um, what is adequate red teaming? What is adequate watermarking? What are our best practices for how AI should be developed? You know, that's kind of one bucket of quote unquote, safety. Uh, I also spend a lot of time, uh, thinking about how do we keep our most valuable national assets, whether that is models, model weights, or most advanced chips from getting into the hands of our competitors and adversaries so that they can't overtake us?

• 5:15Speaker 00

  So those, that's the two things I would put in the, you know, keeping us safe bucket. But as you can imagine, we have to, my own view is that the United States leads the world in AI right now and we gotta stay there, right? This thing can't, we can't just play defense. It's all about playing offense. So what does that mean? It means we can't be too restrictive because we have to have allies around the world. It means we have to be creating standards that enable adoption of AI and use of AI because that's the way, you know, for, for more innovation. It means we need to make chips in the United States because AI runs on chips.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Um, I'm also running a new initiative called tech hubs. We're going to be looking for places all around the country that have outside of Silicon Valley and New York City and Austin, Texas, but you know, places like, you know, uh, Chicago and Denver are putting a ton of money into quantum. Well, we want to encourage that and maybe one of those will become a tech hub where we put money into that. So bottom line is simultaneously keep a lid on the risk, but also.

• 6:34Speaker 00

  Provide the resources and the standards and the guidelines and the job training. I could talk all day about the job training to make sure we run faster than anyone.

• 6:44Reid Hoffman?

  In the, you know, kind of both innovation for the future and the safety, you know, a lot of your focus is how does this help, you know, the hundreds of millions of Americans? And, and obviously it's through industry and various kinds of interactions. But say a little bit about how each of these map to kind of what your hopes and goals are relative to kind of American citizens broadly.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  Right now, I assess that most Americans are more scared about AI than they are excited about AI.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  I was in St. Louis yesterday. It was in Illinois last week. But when you talk to the everyday American about their life, their job, their job security, will their kids be able to get a job? The anxiety is pretty high. Parenthetically, my niece just graduated from Columbia Law School. I went to her graduation. It was all exciting, you know, that's pretty fancy Columbia Law School. And she's like, Auntie, am I going to have a job with AI? So I think that's high anxiety. And, and by the way, we cannot let, even if AI could replace every lawyer, and I'm not saying say even if it could, how does that serve our country? Right? People need to have good jobs.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  You can't maintain a democracy without people having an opportunity to have a good job. So what's my point? My point is the greatest challenge of our time, and I believe this from this point forward, is figuring out how do we use AI to discover medicine more quickly, to bring healthcare to people in their home more effectively at a lower price, to educate children at the highest level, no matter their income level or whether they live in rural or tribal America or New York City. You know, how do we do all that exciting stuff? Without endangering people's way of life, making sure that people have a good job,

• 8:51Speaker 00

  and without, you know, some of this truly scary stuff that I was talking about. And we're in the early innings, you know, like right now as we move towards an election. There really aren't any penalties for deep fakes. I would, as deep fakes as it exists, but AI is that to the, you know, 10th level. There aren't penalties. There's not a lot of enforcement. So misuse of AI, I worry, I worry that misuse of AI will get out of control before the government has any kind of real, you know, regulation in place. And that will sour people's experience. And if it sours people's experience, it's tough to get adoption. And if we don't have adoption, then we don't have innovation.

• 9:35Aria Finger?

  So I love how you laid it out with those two different sides of the coin. Because I think when most people think of government, they think regulation. They think, oh, okay, great. She's in government. She's doing the regulation. And it is amazing to keep us safe. And there's some, you know, really scary things that are happening we have to do. But I love, again, the focus on, oh, no, we can also create all of these things that help everyday Americans. And so I think a lot of people are asking, like, how do you think the US government's approach to AI advancements differ from the handling of other digital innovations over the past 30 years?

• 10:11Speaker 00

  I'm not sure we've gotten it right with, say, social media. Like, on the one hand, I'm glad we're not Europe. I'm glad we have great tech companies. I'm glad we haven't had a set of policies which have stifled innovation. I travel all over the world. The fact is, we have the most innovative ecosystem in the world, the deepest capital markets, some of the best entrepreneurs, and the most leading tech companies in the world. We need to jealously guard that, invest in that, observe that, and grow that.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  And so, you know, whatever policies that we can, you know, have to make that happen are important. That being said, and as I say, you know, Europe is an example where they, they have, you know, faltered. 10 years ago, their GDP and our GDP were roughly similar, and now we're twice as big.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  So there's a lot of reasons for that, but you take my point. That being said, that being said, I think we can hopefully probably all agree that the United States needs federal privacy legislation. It's a problem that we don't have that. We need, should have had better regulation of social media because we've seen the bad effects on kids' mental health. It's undeniable.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  So what's my point? Like, we're in the early innings of AI, I think, very early innings.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  Let's not wait so long as we did with social media and privacy, such that bad things happen before we legislate. But let's also not, you know, put a lid on innovation in the first or second inning of this game.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  And that's not easy. And that's why I think everything we do has to be deeply science and tech-based,

• 12:14Speaker 00

  deeply collaborative, and really, truly a partnership with the public sector and the private, uh, and the private sector. And that is hard to do. So for example, in building our AI Safety Institute here at the Commerce Department, we've recruited a guy named Paul Cristiano, who was at OpenAI. We added a guy named Adam Russell, who's at USC. Robert Reich from Stanford. We're hiring a bunch of engineers from industry. We have a consortia of private sector partners with over a hundred companies from the biggest to the smallest. We have disability advocates, civil society, universities, like,

• 13:00Speaker 00

  that's what it's going to take to really get this right. And, and by the way,

• 13:07Speaker 00

  I don't just want businesses to come here and talk their book.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  They'll do that. That's good. They have to do that. I get that. I don't begrudge that. But like, come in here and help us get this right for the good of humanity. And quite frankly, for the good of your business. Because if this gets overregulated or wrongly regulated too soon, that's bad for everybody. And also, if it doesn't get regulated at all and spirals out of control and has pernicious unintended effects, then there'll be regulatory backlash and that's bad for everybody. So I do feel like this is kind of a, everybody, you know, get religion, that this isn't business as usual, this isn't any old technology. This is kind of the whole game.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  And let's break out of our traditional ways of operating and thinking as between private and public sector and lead the world in innovation and in governance of this stuff.

• 14:15Reid Hoffman?

  One of the great things you guys are doing at Commerce is managing the CHIPS Act. And, you know, when you look over the last three decades, US companies have increasingly outsourced labor and manufacturing. And partially in response to this, you've said you want to make building hardware sexy again. We love that. The administration is aiming to make 20% of the world's advanced chips domestically within the next six years massively ambitious. So where are we starting?

• 14:42Speaker 00

  So I have to tell you something. That, as you might imagine, was not in my pre-approved talking points. I was giving a talk. That's how I feel. That's what I said. My 17-year-old son happened to see a clip of that on social media. He calls me, he's like, "Don't ever say that again." He was like, totally mortified. I was like, "Tommy, it's my son." I was like, "It's how I feel, man. I love it." Look, you guys know as well as I do, like when I was in the venture business, before I got into public service, which wasn't that long ago. Not that long ago, if you were in venture in Boston,

• 15:25Speaker 00

  you were investing in hardware, you know, like, and not even just Boston, you know, Cisco was a startup. You know, there were lots of router companies, networking companies, hardware companies. Pretty much no longer, right? I mean, now it's software, algorithms. Once again, not to date myself, but when I was in the business, not that long ago, the cool thing to be at MIT was double A. Now, half of undergraduates are computer science. Not bad, except we do need to make things. So it's an ambitious goal, Reid, but we have to hit it. I mean, and by the way, AI, I set that goal maybe a year and a half ago,

• 16:08Speaker 00

  before the world was obsessed with AI data centers and Nvidia chips. And AI has changed the game on that. AI runs on chips. It's untenable to buy 93% of our leading edge chips from Taiwan, from one company in Taiwan, and the other 7% from Korea.

• 16:33Speaker 00

  That's literally the situation we're in. So is it ambitious goal? Yes. Are we going to hit it? Yes. In the past six months, we have announced deals with TSMC and Samsung and Intel to build, you know, huge expansions in the United States. And I, we're gonna, we're gonna, they've committed to it. TSMC is going to do three fabs at scale in Arizona. Same thing with Intel, same, same thing. Intel's building an AI cluster in Ohio, Samsung in Texas. The pitch to them is like, your customers are here. Apple's here, Nvidia's here, AMD is here, AI companies are here.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  Microsoft, the hyperscalers, we need you to be here and we're going to incentivize you to do it. But if you, you really, this is what I say, like, you can't go about your everyday business and think it's home, mom. Just like, pause for 10 seconds. You are experts in AI. You know what AI could do for us in five years, not just today. It all requires compute.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  Literally all of the compute that you want is made in Taiwan right now. That's a pretty scary thing if you think about it deeply. So everybody who cares about United States national security, United States tech leadership, US competitiveness in AI, better get religion and help me figure out how to be successful to get to 20%. Because I do think, you know, so much depends upon it. But anyway, I think we will get it done. We've got the deals in place. We're working well with the companies and failure is not an option.

• 18:21Reid Hoffman?

  I a hundred percent agree. It's basically, it's not just the US AI industry, because the AI industry is going to be powering key aspects of every industry. So this is a US, you know, industrial position across the board. Right. Is part of the reason why your work here is so important.

• 18:41Aria Finger?

  Sure. I mean, it feels like our, our moonshot moment, your point about getting religion. Like, this is a time to be patriotic and to say, you know, the US needs to step up so that we can, you know, sort of lead in all of these situations. And from everything you're saying, you know, national security, where are our supply chains? Like, there is global competition. There is also global cooperation. And so, you know, you said yourself, you've been traveling all over the world. You know, we've heard about the UK's AI policy implementation around safety. You know, you've traveled to Kenya, Southeast Asia. Like, tell us about some of your recent trips. Like, what does international cooperation look like on AI? Like, is there global coalition to be had? Like, how can we do this also together with the rest of the world?

• 19:26Speaker 00

  You know, it's a really good question. And it relates to the prior question you asked one of you about the government, how do we regulate in the US? The other exciting thing here is that no country has gotten out so far in front of any other in terms of AI regulation. So with

• 19:51Speaker 00

  Social media and other kinds of technology, privacy, you know, we all have come at it in different ways at different times, different countries. AI, because it was so early, we have an opportunity to collaborate with Europe, the UK, Singapore, India, Japan, Korea,

• 20:17Speaker 00

  to, together, set standards, regulations,

• 20:24Speaker 00

  IP protection, et cetera, for AI. And I was just in Singapore, for example, we, we talked about that, aligning Singapore and US AI standards. It was a, it was a great session at work doing that. I had a team in Korea a few weeks before that. I'm, I'm optimistic that we can, because we're all starting from scratch. I mean, that's the cool thing. We're all starting from scratch. We, Reid and I were together at the UK summit in Bletchley. Everybody flew in to that, to that summit because we're all looking to collaborate from day one. So I, I hear that there's an appetite to do that.

• 21:06Speaker 00

  Look, I think in terms of threats and the like, I think it's, it's legitimately scary to think about AI is applied to nuclear weapons, bioterrorism, surveillance, and we gotta be careful, morally careful about China. We're ahead of China. We need to stay ahead of China. So, working with our allies to protect us, all of us, from Russia, China, North Korea, from getting this stuff to do bad things is, is equally important.

• 21:40Reid Hoffman?

  So, I completely agree with an earlier comment you made, which is, look, we need to invent and create new forms of public-private partnership in order to both get the innovation and safety. And that's just one of the things that, you know, you and the administration is doing a very good job of. What are the things, and you mentioned one thing that you thought was very important for business to do, which is to bring a kind of broader mind of like, how do we solve this problem together? Not just, you know, like the narrow entrenched interest. What are the things that technology leaders, business leaders, you know, technology companies can do to bring to this, to help with this innovation pattern, to, you know, help co-create

• 22:25Reid Hoffman?

  this, you know, potentially, possibly awesome future?

• 22:29Speaker 00

  Due to the fact that there is so much anxiety among the average American about their job security, we have to get really serious about that, confronting reality. And I think this is an opportunity for companies, industry by industry, like clustering in industry, to work together to figure out how jobs in that industry will change due to AI. And what are those companies, perhaps with government help and money, gonna do about it? So that people really truly are, you know, retrained in ways that they can keep their job, or keep our job.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  That's, and Europe does a pretty good job of this. I think there's a place for labor unions to be involved in this. You know, this is a model that I think about, like, how do we get, and it's a way that labor unions can work constructively with business, almost like, I don't know, industry associations. So take an industry, anyone you want, accounting, lawyering, industrial, car making, whatever, get those companies together, do a proper analysis of next few years, disruption to what kinds of jobs due to AI. Come together, federal government, state government, companies, labor, find a solution.

• 23:57Speaker 00

  Stuff like that, I think, goes a long way. Because then people relax. They have sense of security, which they deserve. They have a job, which they deserve. And then everyone else is a bit more open to pushing forward with the possibilities of AI.

• 24:14Aria Finger?

  And can you talk about, again, we were thinking about the scary things that were going to happen. We're talking about also the innovation that can happen. Like, what are you excited about when it relates to AI? Like, what are the positive things that can happen for everyday Americans?

• 24:28Speaker 00

  I mean, everything, like, you know, so one of the things I'm working on at Commerce Department is investing $50 billion to make sure every American has the internet, has broadband. 25% of Americans who live in rural America don't have broadband. Think about that for a second. Imagine getting, try to get past nine o'clock in the morning at your house without being able to get on the line. And then say, do that every day, all day. My point is, so therefore I spend a lot of time in rural America, tribal America. You know, folks that don't have this. It'd be like amazing if people could have access to a physician, a really excellent, high-quality physician

• 25:12Speaker 00

  at their kitchen table in deeply rural America. If kids, if we could use AI to equalize the gaps in education. You know, both Reid and I have been involved, actually how we first met, I think, involved in improving public schools in America. AI could be an unbelievable great equalizer. You know, bringing new drugs. When I talk to like CEO of Pfizer and biotech companies and they explain to me the impact of AI on the speed with which they can bring new drugs to market and the speed with which they can innovate. That's super exciting. So you could literally go on all day. I mean, I just, I think it's,

• 25:57Speaker 00

  it's fantastic to think about it. You know, people with disabilities, for example, you know, that's a great example. I've had sessions with folks with disability, you know, advocates. And on the one hand, they're scared, and I fully understand that. Like, all the bias that's in the world today, put on the steroids of AI, super bad, we can't let it happen. On the other hand, it's humongously enabling for people with certain disabilities. So, anyway, I think overall, it is, there's a million possibilities that make it very exciting.

• 26:36Reid Hoffman?

  What would be the way that you would want industry to help kind of relieve the job fears and anxieties? Because I agree with you, that is the most central thing, to help with that transformation. And what would be the, what would be the, as a word, the called arms?

• 26:55Speaker 00

  I think businesses need to make certain commitments to put people at ease. And I, I mean, coe in this, but something like, your job may go away due to AI. We are gonna, if that happens, we will make sure you get trained for a different job, assuming you want to, you know, stay with us and learn the skills required. And that's why I said, I think the way to do it isn't so much company by company, but in an industry. You know, because maybe my, like, if I'm running General Motors, just to pick a name out of a hat, I might not

• 27:40Speaker 00

  be able to say, okay, hey, Reid, I promised you a job here. But, you know, Ford, Stellantis, GM, Tesla, together, we know this category of job might be going away in the next five years. So here's what we're gonna tell you. We, together, plus the government, are funding a training initiative. We want you to go through that training initiative. This new category of job is opening up in our industry, and we're gonna make sure you're, you're gonna get one of those jobs. I think it's something like that, which is a kind of a bargain, like a grand bargain or social contract that we have to provide to people.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  The final thing I'll say is this, you do hear people talk about, you know, human extinction due to AI. And I guess I would, I would, my one final comment is this, like, at the end of the day, any technology

• 28:45Speaker 00

  exists to serve humanity.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  And shame on us if we allow AI to be so runaway that it would lead to human extinction. Maybe it can, but how stupid are we if we let it?

• 29:00Reid Hoffman?

  One of the things that these critics don't realize is that AI may also be instrumental in preventing human extinction, like against pandemics or other kinds of things, or figuring out what to do if we have an asteroid issue, or other kinds of things. And that's part of why I think the dialogue on this is malformed. But I a thousand percent agree with you.

• 29:20Speaker 00

  People can't open their ears to the goodness until we help them, all of us, get a little calmer about the scary stuff. But when I hear people talk about the runaway train of nobody will have a job, human extinction, like, we won't let that happen. Technology exists to enhance humanity and health and education and the human experience. So let's just make sure we

• 29:53Speaker 00

  have guardrails that, I guess I'll end where I began, where we maintain our competitive lead in the world in innovation in a way that makes people smarter, healthier, and more prosperous, not extinct.

• 30:12Reid Hoffman?

  Possible is produced by Wondra Media Network. It's hosted by Aria Finger and me, Reid Hoffman. Our showrunner is Sean Young. Possible is produced by Katie Sanders, Edie Allard, Sarah Shleid, Adrian Bain, and Paloma Moreno Jimenez. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and editor.

• 30:31Aria Finger?

  Special thanks to Soraya Yalamanchili, Sayida Sapieva, Ian Alice, Greg Beato, Parth Patel, and Ben Ralas. And a big thanks to Sarah Weinstein, Charlie Andrews, and Little Monster Media Company.