Pod Insights Pop Culture Happy Hour Wonder Man About this episode Marvel’s new Disney+ series Wonder Man is a sensible buddy comedy where Yahya Abdul-Mateen II plays a down-on-his-luck actor (with incredible superpowers) trying to make it in Hollywood, and Ben Kingsley plays his new friend with a dark past. Safe to say it’s not what most Marvel fans are expecting – and that’s a good thing.
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0:19 Speaker 01 Safe to say Marvel's new series, Wonder Man, is not what most Marvel fans are expecting, and that's a good thing. There are superpowers, but not really, because its core sensibility is buddy comedy. Yahya Abdul-Matin II plays a down-on-his-love actor trying to make it in Hollywood. Ben Kingsley plays his new friend with a dark past. It's all an excuse to make what turns out to be a hangout show about life in Tinseltown. I'm Glen Weldon, and today we're talking about Wonder Man on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.
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1:54 Speaker 01 Joining me today is film and culture critic Kate Young. Hey Kate. Hello. Hello. Also with us is New York Times food reporter and author of the bestselling cookbook, "Indian Ish," Priya Krishna. Hey, Priya.
2:04 Speaker 03 Hi, Glenn.
2:05 Speaker 01 Hey. Let's get to it. In "Wonder Man," Yahya Abdul-Mateen II is Simon, an actor who overprepares and overthinks so much that he's underemployed. When he was a kid, he loved a cheesy 80s superhero movie called "Wonder Man," so when he gets a chance to audition for its modern reboot, he does everything he can to nail it. He gets some help from Ben Kingsley, playing washed-up actor Trevor Slattery, who, the six of you who remember Iron Man 3 will recall, was hired to portray the Mandarin, the public face of a terrorist organization. He went to jail for that, but he's out now. They team up to help each other audition for roles in "Wonder Man" as Trevor gives Simon advice on the art of acting.
2:43 Speaker 04 Never forget that. Nature, that's our job, to understand the world around us and ourselves within it. The real work isn't digging for subtext or parsing a writer's intent. The real work is living.
3:00 Speaker 01 But Trevor's dark past isn't quite done with him. And did I mention that Simon has amazing superpowers that he's desperately attempting to hide for reasons that become clear as the series progresses? "Wonder Man" is streaming now on Disney+. Priya, kick us off. What'd you think?
3:14 Speaker 03 I was very skeptical of this, namely because, like, I am a Marvel fan experiencing Marvel fatigue. It's been a while since I've been really thrilled by the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And when this started, it started kind of slow. But I will say, about halfway through, I think it was the Damar Dorman Davis episode, a flip switched, and I really, really like how this series landed. And I actually found this to be a much more charming look at the entertainment industry than even the studio or the franchise.
3:51 Speaker 01 Okay, interesting. What about you, Kate?
3:52 Speaker 05 I really liked it. I mean, I definitely have a bit of Marvel fatigue myself, but I think because I'm such a big fan of Yaya, I was definitely willing to see where this went. I really liked it a lot. As someone who is, despite being a film critic, still very much in awe of the world of Hollywood, I really liked that it spent so much time kind of illuminating what the work of acting actually is and what it looks like. And I found that really fascinating. And it was something that I don't think I've seen a ton of, at least in my own experience in other media either. So adding the extra element of placing that inside the Marvel Cinematic Universe was a fun exercise for me. I think all the performances are really great. Like, I had a great time.
4:31 Speaker 01 I like this too, but I know my superhero people and I know there's going to be a lot of them who will be waiting to get to the fireworks factory. So, you know, let's let those folks know there is no fireworks factory here. There is kind of the dramatic equivalent of a very Hollywood thing, a general meeting, which is where a studio or a network invites an actor, writer, director in to talk about projects that never happen. They give them a tiny bottle of water and then they send them home. That's kind of what it feels like. This show's engine is another very Hollywood thing, like life on a Hollywood set. It's hurry up and wait. It's indefinitely delayed gratification, de-escalation, anticlimax, and you gotta get with that program if you're gonna enjoy it. I mostly did. At the end of the eight episodes, though, I'm not sure I felt like there was quite enough happening
5:15 Speaker 01 to keep me from getting impatient with it, which is why I was glad we got all eight at once. Not because I was waiting for some big superhero pew pew pew, but because once I recalibrated my expectations, right, and I met it on the level of what it was trying to be, because this show teaches you how to watch it. A comedy about being an actor in Hollywood, there just wasn't a lot in there that I hadn't seen before. I do think it's kind of coasting a bit on its setup. Like, guys, this is a superhero show. It's not a superhero show. It's a multicam comedy that's midnight cowboy in Hollywood. On paper, great idea. In execution, not quite enough that was new or fresh or funny. And I might be reacting to the press materials and certainly some of the reviews, which are like, this isn't superheroes. This is better. This is.
6:00 Speaker 01 A word I have grown to hate, elevated.
6:02 Speaker 05 Oh, I hate that.
6:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, and look, if you're gonna serve me a burger that's actually cake, that's great. I'm fine with it. Give me a fork. Just has to be great cake. And the cake felt a little stale to me. Do you get that?
6:11 Speaker 05 Mm hmm.
6:12 Speaker 03 I agree with you. I guess I will push back with two points. One is that I was kind of wowed by the chemistry between the two main characters, played by Yahya Abdul-Mateen II and Ben Kingsley.
6:27 Speaker 01 Yep.
6:27 Speaker 03 Their chemistry was so palpable and so charming and kind of carried the show for me. And the second thing was I thought that it had a few interesting quirks, namely this idea of the doorman clause.
6:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:41 Speaker 03 Can I explain what that is?
6:43 Speaker 01 Sure, please do.
6:44 Speaker 03 So basically, the doorman clause, there is this one episode mid-season, and I really liked this episode, that really basically explains how this superpowered individual who became an actor, he's on set with Josh Gad in the sequel to a heist film, and he accidentally like swallows Josh Gad, which results in Hollywood basically creating this clause in which they will never work with superpowered individuals. And Simon, the main character, is a superpowered individual. And so it sort of creates these very interesting stakes where he is superpowered, but he has to keep that a secret.
7:26 Speaker 03 And I thought that and the chemistry were the elements that kept me interested.
7:31 Speaker 01 Right, that's unique to the show.
7:32 Speaker 03 But otherwise, like, yes, I agree with you. I feel like it was cake, and it was a good cake. It wasn't the best cake I've ever had, but it was enough to keep me eating and to finish the slice.
7:44 Speaker 01 There we go.
7:45 Speaker 05 I mean, I'm an all cake is better than all pie person, and like, when it comes to.
7:49 Speaker 01 All right. Created a monster.
7:52 Speaker 05 I mean, when it comes to the MCU, like, I'm a person who cries every single time I watch Endgame, right? Like, these are movies to me that exist not to be high art, which like, sure, that's maybe grading on a curve, but I absolutely am because I want to be entertained. They make me feel things. I'm invested in the characters. That's really all I. Need from them, right? Like, what I really liked about this is that exact same aspect of the story, that desire that he has, that necessity that he has to hide. That he is a part of individual specifically to me because it read as a very clear metaphor for what it is like. Living with a mental illness, right? And to me, his struggle to. Not just hide his powers, but also to work through his craft as an actor are parallel, right? Because so much of what he is doing.
8:37 Speaker 05 In terms of preparing his characters is about planning, right? It's just about making sure that he can. Predict what comes next and he can prepare for what comes next so that he is not then put in a situation in which he loses control and reveals himself. And that really, really, really parallels what it looks like to have severe anxiety or schizophrenia or bipolar disorder where. You are in a situation in which you understand what your triggers are, but you are. Both trying to hide them and control them in a world in which you can't ask for help because no one can know. You can't tell anyone because that leads to consequences and stigma. Like, it really, really, really resonated to me that. He sees his powers not as something that are not just, you know, a disadvantage, his chosen profession.
9:22 Speaker 05 But something that could have real significant consequences to him, both socially and professionally. And the fact that the Department of Damage Control spends, you know, most of the season basically being like, he is dangerous, we have to capture him. So and so. Despite the fact that like, the only time we really see him doing anything even close to violence is when he is upset or like. Accidentally, right? Like, this is not someone who is going out of his way to harm people, right?
9:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:46 Speaker 05 To me, it was such a perfect parallel there that I like, to me, that kind of overrides any of the other issues that I have with this story.
9:52 Speaker 01 Okay. I mean, you're both hitting on my favorite part of the series, which is. A very Marvel Comics thing, which is like, let's meditate on the text and really fully imagine. What life in the real world would be like if there were superheroes in it. There would be property damage, there would be civilian casualties, there would be traffic jams, right? Which would drive up insurance costs. And in the real world and in ours studios, despite being led by billionaires, are really tight fisted and loathe to surrender. Or any money. So yes, that's how life would work. It's just in the execution, the shadow of the studio is a big one. The shadow of the franchise, a thing I didn't really like, but they both came out before this did. But the fact that they did is kind of Disney's fault because this show, Wonder Man, was completed and sitting on the shelf.
10:37 Speaker 06 Yeah.
10:37 Speaker 01 But after the commercial or critical disappointments like The Marvels and Secret Invasion, Disney told Marvel to slow down its output and space things out. So this came out after those shows. And in execution here, a scene would start. You'd have a very good idea where it's going and you were right, but it just took so long to get there because that's a very deliberate choice. And a very deliberate choice because that's intentional. The scene where Simon in the pilot is this insufferable actor guy on the set of American Horror Story. It starts and you get it, but it just keeps going.
11:10 Speaker 07 How long have Sarah and I known each other?
11:13 Speaker 06 Hmm, it's a good question. What are you thinking?
11:16 Speaker 07 I was thinking we'd go pretty far back, like maybe we were best friends, but we had a little falling out when she got tenure before me.
11:22 Speaker 06 Sure. Why not?
11:24 Speaker 07 Right? Might add a little layer to the scene.
11:26 Speaker 01 And the reason it keeps going is because of this show's organizing principle, its intent, which is to prioritize character over plot. That was good. That was small. That was specific. There just weren't enough of those specific details. And the Josh Gad thing, he appears as a kind of, you know, D-bag version of himself.
11:43 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. Look who's in the house. Oh. What? There he is. Ben Back, what's up, Mr. Gad? How you doing, sir? Mr. Gad, come on, man. Call me Josh or Jay Gad. I'm trying to make that a thing.
11:57 Speaker 01 Which is great, but then you check his IMDb page and there is a surprising number of Josh Gad as himself credits where he's kind of doing the same.
12:05 Speaker 06 Yeah.
12:06 Speaker 01 Thing. At the end of the day, look, I think there is definitely enough to recommend here, but for me, it was only just, only cross the line.
12:11 Speaker 03 I want to talk about the sort of comparisons with the studio and the franchise because I did have the same thought. I personally found this to be far less self-indulgent than those television shows.
12:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:25 Speaker 03 But the show that I thought of actually watching this was more. The recent iteration of Watchmen.
12:32 Speaker 05 Watchmen, yeah.
12:35 Speaker 03 Yahya Abdul Mateen the second as Dr. Manhattan.
12:38 Speaker 05 Who's hiding powers.
12:39 Speaker 03 I feel like the genius of that show was sort of, it was a superhero show, but it really like peeled back the layers of like, what is a superhero and who gets to be a superhero? And why do we love superheroes so much? And there is this one episode in Watchmen about sort of the origins of superhero dumb. That is like one of my favorite episodes of television. And the Damar Doorman Davis episode is sort of, it felt a little bit like an homage.
13:09 Speaker 01 I get that.
13:10 Speaker 03 To that episode. Obviously it didn't have the power and heft of that Watchmen episode. But it did feel interested in saying more about what it means to be a superhero. Than your average superhero movie. And obviously like the fact that Yahya Abdul Mateen the second plays Dr. Manhattan in that. And he plays a superhero in this, like I loved him in both.
13:31 Speaker 01 Yep.
13:31 Speaker 03 But I feel like the similarities I felt between this show and Watchmen made me like it better. And it made me want more shows that sort of peel back the curtain of superhero dumb. Rather than just being like, all right, here's a new superhero.
13:46 Speaker 01 Sure.
13:46 Speaker 05 Yeah. I mean, to your point Glenn, I think like ironically, what I think might have solved some of the problems that you're having. Would have been more of the Department of Damage Control. Because I think that like, there's enough in there to kind of establish the general stakes. But there's like a tiny bit of commentary about, you know, like the prison industrial complex. There's a big meeting that they have where they're like, they're cutting up budgets. And the issue isn't like, oh, we haven't caught the bad guys. It's the prison is empty, right? And like, kind of looking at that as like, how that relates directly to this man who has powers. That he possibly can't control, who if we're looking at it, you know, as this metaphor for mental health is being targeted by the government.
14:30 Speaker 05 For incarceration because of that mental health illness. Like, there's a lot more that could be happening there. But at the same time, like, I don't necessarily know that I really want to spend a ton of time with. Like.
14:40 Speaker 01 Sure, sure.
14:41 Speaker 05 But at the same time, I feel like there actually was a lot of like plot forward stuff that could have been mined there to kind of give us a little bit more because I agree like I've seen the whole thing twice. I watched it in one sitting both times. And like, it does spin its wheels a lot specifically because of precisely what you've already mentioned about prioritizing character. They just kind of go like we're spinning our wheels a little bit to like do a little fun detour until we get to that point.
15:06 Speaker 01 Mm hmm. I mean, this is not the first time Marvel has made a show like this, which is purely character driven. Comedy first superhero stuff, second or third. She Hulk, Marvel Bros. hated it. I kind of liked it. Hawkeye had some of that same likeness. Agatha along Echo very much didn't have that likeness and and Ironheart didn't really. But one of the creators of this show is Andrew Guest. He wrote on Thirty Rock. He wrote on Community. He wrote on Brooklyn Nine-Nine. The other daddy of the show is Destin Daniel Cretin. He directed a tiny film I really dug called Short Term Twelve. And a big film I also really dug called Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, which also had a lot of fun with Ben Kingsley's Trevor Slattery. So you can really see the DNA of this. You can see where it's coming from.
15:49 Speaker 01 But I mean, you know, we talked about the chemistry of the two leads, but is there anything more you wanted to say about it?
15:53 Speaker 05 The performances between both of them are, I think, like the real draw of the show and they're really great together. Um, pretty talked a little bit about their chemistry. But I really, really liked the way that they made the work of acting visible. Like, I think like if you are just a regular viewer and you're watching a film, you're not thinking like, oh, this is a person and they're doing a great acting job. You're like, I'm watching characters and this is their lives. But I think when you then have a situation which an actor then has to act as if they are acting and they have to make that acting visible in order to make it apparent to both the audience and the other characters in the scene. Like, to me, that's a different skill set, an additional skill set. And I think that everyone involved in the show is really, really excellent with that because they're not only having to give these performances as these characters, but they're having to demonstrate their ability to perform this high level skill
16:38 Speaker 05 in both good and bad ways and to make those things very distinct and obvious to the audience in a way that I think like given some of the conversations around the Oscar nominations, I don't think people really understand what an actor. Actor's job actually is. I really, really, really enjoyed that aspect of the show. And also the comedy that they kind of mined from him kind of being like a little too into that. And like, maybe not being able to read a room and understanding when this is simply not important to the story. You need to let it go. I mean, there's one scene where he's kind of saying like, well, I don't think this character would be reading this book. They would be teaching a different book because of, and I'm like, no one cares. No one cares.
17:15 Speaker 05 But yeah, I really, really liked it. I thought that it was interesting to get such a really specific and like targeted look at what the craft is. Cause I think a lot of people really feel like if they made me cry, they're good at their job. And like, sometimes they're just like me and you're a crybaby. It doesn't necessarily mean they're good.
17:32 Speaker 03 I will say that like, I feel like Marvel really lost the sauce in the last few years. And this show and the swings that it takes makes me feel like, all right, like I could get behind this. Like recasting Robert Downey Jr. As Doctor Doom, I don't know. But sort of a quirky show about what it means to be an actor, like I'm down with that. I feel like if the Marvel universe is like, all right, we're gonna do the action movies for theaters. And then we're gonna do these more like indie shows like Agatha, like this. I'm totally fine with that.
18:12 Speaker 01 Yeah. And that's the strength of Marvel Comics anyway, is that everything can kind of go off on its own thing, but be part of the whole. Because it's the universe that connects them. It's not necessarily a tone that connects them. And that different superheroes and, and different characters have different tones. I think we are all recommending this show at various volumes, but I think we're all recommending it. We want to know what you think about Wonder Man. Find us at Facebook dot com slash P C H H. And a reminder, we are pulling back the curtain and letting pop culture happy hour plus supporters sit in virtually on a live episode taping. They'll get to see how the show is made and experience this episode before everyone else. We'll be talking about something Oscars related, which is always fun. And because it's live, plus supporters will get to see the stuff that our producers always cut out of the show.
18:55 Speaker 01 It's all happening over Zoom on Friday, February 13th at three P M. Eastern, noon Pacific. If you're not. A plus supporter yet, go to plus.npr.org/happy. Again, that's plus.npr.org/happy. If you're already a plus supporter, thank you so much. And scroll back in your feed to January 22 to learn how to register for the taping. That brings us to the end of our show. Kate Young, Priya Krishna, thank you so much for being here.
19:16 Speaker 05 Thanks for having me.
19:17 Speaker 03 It's fun.
19:18 Speaker 01 This episode was produced by Carly Rubin, Kayla Latimore, and Mike Katz. And edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. And Hello, Kimin provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glen Weldon, and we'll see you all next time.
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