Spider-Noir

Does Spider-Noir get its blend of noir and superheroes right? In the 2018 film Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, Nicolas Cage gave us a taste of a black and white, film-noir Spider-Man who talked in Dashiell Hammett dialogue. That cameo has spun into a full series that’s streaming on Prime Video. If you like off-the-wall superhero adaptations, check out these episodes: Marvel’s ‘Wonder Man’ is a low-key, low-stakes buddy comedy https://www.npr.org/2026/02/04/nx-s1-5698219/marvels-wonder-man-is-a-low-key-low-stakes-buddy-comedy In 'The Penguin' a C-list villain gets an A-list series https://www.npr.org/2024/11/07/1211597537/pop-culture-happy-hour-draft-11-07-2024 Connect with Pop Culture Happy Hour: Letterboxd https://letterboxd.com/nprpopculture/ / Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pchh Our weekly newsletter https://www.npr.org/newsletter/pop-culture Support Pop Culture Happy Hour+ https://plus.npr.org/happy See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This week on the NPR Politics Podcast, the midterm elections are wrapping up and millions of people have already voted. We're taking one final check of the electoral polls with a new NPR PBS News Marist Poll. It shows Democrats still poised to make gains, but also with some warning signs for just how many. We'll explain on the NPR Politics Podcast.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  One of the best bits in the animated movie Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse was the taste we got of a black and white 1930s film noir Spider-Man who talked in dashel Hammett dialogue and sounded like Nicolas Cage, because he was voiced by Nicolas Cage. Well, if you like that taste, Prime Video is serving you up an all-you-can-eat buffet with Spider Noir, a new live-action series starring Nicolas Cage. But does the show get its blend of noir and superheroes right? I'm Glen Weldon. Today, we're talking about Spider Noir on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

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  This week on Up First, we're in the final days before the midterm elections. And this is one of the wonderful things about politics, one of the wonderful things about humanity. We have all this data, we have all this information, and nobody really knows what's gonna happen. We're gonna follow it day by day through Election Day and beyond. And you can listen to Up First every morning on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Joining me today is filmmaker, pop culture critic, and iHeartRadio producer Joelle Monique. Welcome back, Joelle.

• 2:28Speaker 05

  Thanks, Glenn. Glad to be here.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  Great to have you. Also with us is Daisy Rosario. She's the senior supervising producer of audio at Slate, where she works with shows like Death, Sex and Money, and I See Why Am I, which I keep trying to call Icky Me, but it's not really catching on. Hey, Daisy.

• 2:41Speaker 06

  Hey, I'm good. Happy to be here. Thanks.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Great to have you. In Spider Noir, Nick Cage is Ben Reilly, a down-on-his-luck private dick who used to be New York's only superhero, the Spider. But following a tragedy, he's hung up his mask.

• 2:54Speaker 07

  Ruby once told me that with great power comes great responsibility. Well, she was the greatest responsibility I ever had. And I failed her. The Spider failed her.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  That is, until a case involving a lot of noir-inflected analogues of classic Spider-Man characters, Black Cat, Sandman, Tombstone, and more drags him back into the game. Brendan Gleeson turns up as a mob boss, and Lamorne Morris plays this universe's version of Spidey's reporter pal Robbie. The press materials say that this is not a spinoff of the Spider-verse movies, and it's set in its own separate universe, but come on. In an unusual move, the series, eight episodes are presented in two formats, color and black and white. Trust us, go with black and white. Spider Noir is streaming now on Prime Video. We should mention Amazon supports NPR and pays to distribute some of our content. Joelle, we're gonna start with you. Is this the stuff dreams are made of?

• 3:53Speaker 05

  Oh, maybe not dreams, but definitely not nightmares either. I think

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:59Speaker 05

  there's a lot of fun stuff to enjoy. Nicolas Cage, Nicholas Caging, all over this joint. He is over the top. It's why he's a star. He's goofy, but somehow still affectionate and resonant. But I think overall, I had a really difficult time with the tone of the show. I love a good noir. To me, noir is all about secrets and trying to understand the human condition. And then usually there's a very intense crime involved. I felt the crime was kind of all over the place and didn't quite build in a way that was satisfactory. And I felt there was a lot of struggle to get the blend of like, when is it okay to be funny?

• 4:43Speaker 05

  And when is it okay to be like, deep and darkly dramatic? And it kind of trying to do both washed it out. I will say, what I appreciated about the series is a lot of times, particularly when we're doing comic books within other genres, we want to make everything very sanitized. In other words, we do blind race casting and we're not going to address the struggles of the time period. Or that becomes the whole thing. It's just about the struggles of the time period, which becomes laborious. I felt that this found a really good balance between like, okay, there was some segregation. Okay, not everyone would have respected everyone in their position because of the color of their skin.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:21Speaker 05

  But this is nobody's like sob story and I was pleasantly surprised by that. So there's again, some things to enjoy, some cute performances. I thought costuming was sensational and the black and white was beautiful. So if you, if you just like watching black and white images, you could just tune right off and enjoy the visual imagery of the show.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  All right, that's, I think that's the dictionary definition of a mixed review. What about you, Daisy?

• 5:44Speaker 06

  Oh, man.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:45Speaker 06

  What a slog I found this to be.

• 5:47Speaker 05

  Oh, Daisy.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Unmixed.

• 5:50Speaker 06

  I wanted to really like this. Like I am a fan of basically all of the parts, right? Like I also love like film noir. I do love the Spider verse movies themselves. I thought it was so fun, these different characters that they brought in and gave us like little hints of and. And they said, it's not exactly the same, but it's the only reason we have the show. So, you know, fair enough. I think Nicolas Cage can be a good time. I actually wanted him to be bigger.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:15Speaker 06

  Okay, like, just really go for it if you're gonna go for it, right? And I know that it's kind of an oversaid thing right now, but to me, it really gave like, is this a chat GPT script in the sense of like, it had all of the elements that you know should exist for something that is both based in noir and based in superhero. But it didn't feel like it knew how to actually use those things to maximum effect. It just felt like it was like, okay, we need something like this. We've got that. Check. But they didn't come together. I will say, I don't think any of the performers are giving like bad performances per se. I forgot until Joelle said it about what I thought was actually one of

• 6:59Speaker 06

  the strongest parts, which was weirdly the race thing.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:02Speaker 06

  Weirdly, you guys got that part right, I think.

• 7:04Speaker 05

  So perfect.

• 7:05Speaker 06

  But overall, it was just a slog. And I mean, I really like so many of the people that are in this. And the fact that I

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 06

  know I would not have pressed play on any episodes past the first one, were I not preparing for this very conversation.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 7:20Speaker 06

  Is just my truth. It's my truth.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Okay, I come down between you two, but man, after that first episode, I was totally team Daisy. Ultimately, I do think this missed the mark. I just don't think it goes hard enough because it's adopting noir as a style as an affect. And that's not what noir is. Noir is a conceptual basis. It's like, it can't be slathered over the top. It has to be baked in. It has to saturate every aspect of what's on screen, or it just comes off as a goof. And I think it comes off as kind of a goof here, pastiche. But I will say, that was me after the first episode. I grouzed to producer Mike about how the show was such a misfire. And he asked me, just in passing, how I watched it. And I said, well, I just clicked on the first screener I got. That was the color one. He said, watch it in black and white. And I watched the second episode and the rest of the episode in

• 8:04Speaker 01

  black and white. And that effect was greatly lessened, because boy, I didn't think the color worked at all. But it's still there. Even in black and white, there is a feeling of just, we're all saying the same thing, not wanting to commit to the bit or to wink at the bit. The mission statement is off. I felt like he was checking off those noir elements stupidly, like they were Stations of the Cross, instead of. Reveling in them and so I don't know if these people love noir. I think they love extending a superhero IP. I don't know. I think they love noir.

• 8:32Speaker 05

  Even when we're looking at like the shots, some of these shots are composed so beautifully. But then you'll go 15 minutes without a beautifully composed shot and you're like, we were just at the table with the mirror effect and it was so gorgeous. Where did that go? It just comes and goes so randomly too. I wish that there had been some kind of stake straight through where it was like, everyone is serious, but Nick Cage is the clown in this space. I thought that might have worked. Or if we had more of a Pleasantville effect where, you know, I know they're trying to separate it from the movie. I'm not quite sure why that was the decision that ended up being made, but like in the movie, his character finds a Rubik's cube and he's perplexed and like he's like astounded by it. And I thought, oh, perhaps we'll bring this idea of moving from black and white to color.

• 9:18Speaker 05

  And kind of explore that, but that's not really the thing either. I guess I was just confused as to like what they enjoyed about this character. Was it just Nick Cage's goofy voice, which again, very entertaining. Enjoy watching him on screen, but not really enough to carry like a full series. I didn't really understand like what the end goal was. As somebody who really loves Spider-Man and somebody who's like a fan of Nicolas Cage and noir, you know, to your point, Daisy, I was just like, all of the elements are here. And, you know, if we can mention like Lee Jang Lee is so fun. I just really love her as an actress and I thought like, oh, her is cat. It's like, that's a really great casting. Like, that's really fun. I thought Lamorne, you know, when he was allowed to be serious and very grounded as a journalist was sensational.

• 10:03Speaker 05

  But then they had him doing some jokes that felt sort of like, almost like his Winston character from New Girl. And I was like, I don't understand why this is happening here. And again, love Winston, love Lamorne, like great characters, but just confusing in this space.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. You can do noir superheroes. I just don't think it's happening here and I don't know why, because if there's any superhero who could handle a noir treatment, it's Spider-Man who is every man who gets beat up all the time, who's feckless, even though he has powers. He's the Guy who like noir heroes get the crap beat out of them all the time. And he does here, but it's still like, I think noir is a point of view and it has to be cynical and dark and disappointed in humanity. Right? And not depressed about that. People let you down, but it's not depressed about that because there is in noir, a tone of justification like I was right. Dames are bad news and the rich are out for everyone and people let you down. And this thing that everyone's killing for is fake. And you can adopt that to extend your superhero IP.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  It can work in small doses, but I think you have to tell a fundamentally different story. I'm not sure why this isn't working when on paper it should.

• 11:10Speaker 06

  Right.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Any ideas why it's not?

• 11:12Speaker 06

  I mean, I found myself struggling with the same thing because like, you know, I just, I just wasn't compelled by it. Right? Like to the point where again, I do like these actors so much that like out loud, I was like, oh, Lamorne, it's not your fault. I just can't get into it. Like, you know, like, I'm like, that's what I'm saying out loud to my TV as I'm watching it. I did find myself like thinking a lot about the script, but also not necessarily finding enough obvious fault with it to be like, this explains it either.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 06

  And then the show itself does have that mix that I feel like we're seeing a little bit more of now of like, looking both like very expensive and very cheap at the same time in like weird ways. Like there are moments in the show where I was like, did Nicolas Cage just like call six people up and say, we're going to make a show. And then they found a room and now they're just talking in the room. You know, so it was just like veering back and forth on these things, but also not in a way that was so extreme that I could like really start laughing at it. If you're gonna be bad, just be bad, be really bad so that you're at least still compelling. Like I was kind of offended by how bored I was more than anything, especially because I do love. That's fair. So many of these actors, like I think the actors themselves are really, really talented.

• 12:26Speaker 06

  And also I was like, did you guys shoot this over a weekend at some moments? Like it was very confusing.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:34Speaker 05

  Here's the thing I think this series needed more of. The series needed more romance between Cat and the spider. Whatever kind of chemistry was building a minute, immediately diminishes. I think it needed more Brendan Gleeson in a more upfront way. I thought he was probably, for me, the best parts. Whenever he was on screen, I was like clicking back in. And I think it's just because of the character, really. Like Brendan's doing a great job, but you know, as Daisy was saying, everyone's doing a great job, but that character feels the most grounded in a noir universe. He's an older guy who's losing his perceived control. He's still, he's still the ruler, but he's like, are people questioning me? Are they not showing up? Like, am I being put out to pasture before I'm ready? No, I'm still the boss. That's really interesting. Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 05

  Brendan Gleeson's character, Silvermane, has this relationship with Cat Hardy. She's like a lounge singer who's kind of almost like a doll for him. He just like amasses this control over her life. It's strictly about you. Wear these clothes, you perform in my club, that kind of situation. Yeah. Which I found really compelling for her. Like, for the women in this series, you know, they get really interesting starting points, but I feel like where they go, they don't. They can kind of just stay in the same place. To me, here's the biggest sin of the show. Noir, at a time when, you know, women were going through a lot, we'll say, had really interesting vibrant female characters all through the canon.

• 13:59Speaker 05

  Like really great upfront, incredible like biting dialogue, difficult situations they had to maneuver. And I just felt like our female characters were kind of stuck. They were given like some interesting starting places and then nowhere to go with that. And they, all of their challenges felt superficial. Yeah. There's a human element of fear that is essential to noir. Of like, I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm scared for my life. I'm scared for my compatriots. I'm scared for my country. Like you need that level of fear running throughout and it's gotta be clear for every character. You're just missing the fear. And so all of that like suspense and grittiness and build that you love when you're watching a noir is just gone. It's difficult. I, again, had fun moments.

• 14:44Speaker 05

  Watching it. There are certain scenes that work. There's some good fight stuff that happens where I was like, oh, that's kind of impressive. I thought, oh, my gosh, the Spider Noir costume is grand.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, looks good.

• 14:55Speaker 05

  So good. And we know we've seen some bad costumes.

• 14:58Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:58Speaker 05

  In our time watching the superhero stuff. So I was like pleasantly impressed. I feel like people came. I just wish. Ah, man, I really wish we had tightened up on like the noir centric element. And maybe that's our fault. Maybe as noir lovers and film critics, we shouldn't have been anticipating that from like a Spider-Man thing. But I think coming off of the Spider-verse movies and the quality that was there, I think we're all kind of hoping for that same kind of emotional resonance here.

• 15:23Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, I just didn't feel the stakes, you know, I think even before I started trying to look at it more through a noir lens, I just didn't really feel the stakes, like the way that's something that I'm compelled by, right? Like pulls my attention and I care, even if I don't completely understand yet why I care, right? There were some things that happened in later episodes that I did find interesting, but I, even then I felt very aware of like, okay, but like I wouldn't have made it to this point. And there's just too many things vying for our attention.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're all saying in slightly different ways. We're all saying the superficiality of its approach, its take is what's kind of bouncing off of. I also have a longstanding grudge against superhero stories without superheroes, you know, your Gotham's, your Smallville's, your Pennyworth's. And this thing, its whole thing is he's hung up the webs. He hung up the mask because of tragedy, which is a very cliche thing, but in fairness, it's a very Spider-Man cliche. He's the guy who's always hanging up the suit. So I'm gonna give her props. And I'm about to make a very petty point, but I think it speaks to what we're all kind of talking about. This kind of grab bag noir pastiche thing. Lucas Haas plays like an assistant. Lucas Haas, this is a period piece.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Either wear a wig or cut your damn hair. You can't have that shag in 1930s, but you know. You can say, well, this is an alternate universe. That might explain why there is a 1958 Perry Como version of Accentuate the Positive as a needle drop in episode two, even though this is supposed to be set in the 30s. And in episode three, Ben quotes Betty Davis saying, what a dump, which is from a 1949 movie, Beyond the Forest. So yes, given that, why wouldn't a character in the 30s have this fallout boy haircut? You know, sure, why not? Nothing matters. No stakes.

• 17:07Speaker 05

  I did find the time period a little confusing. We talked a little bit about it off mic. Well, the costumes are screaming like World War I and it's clearly the 30s. There's so much, they're like, oh, you can't quite tell if the depression has just hit or are we facing like the tail end of it?

• 17:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:25Speaker 05

  And also, I just really don't appreciate things that are too clean in cinema.

• 17:29Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:30Speaker 05

  And I feel like if we're in the middle of a depression, everybody needs to be much more scraggly. It needs to be much harder times. We get a lot of mentions of, oh, we have no money, but then no consequences of not having the money. Somehow it's always magically there when we need it, which I find as a formerly extremely poor person, very difficult to follow. I'm like, what's has not how people with zero funds operate. I think that level of realism would have helped us, you know, because when you look at like the canon noir, you don't get a lot of like mysticism or science fiction. It's just not part of the genre. And so I think when you're going to blend them, you've got to really nail down your noir elements so that those other elements can shine.

• 18:13Speaker 05

  I also think, to your point, Daisy, too many characters. I mean, this, I feel like I've just been on this a lot lately. Like, there's so many people we have to follow that you don't feel like you get time to connect with anyone. Kat has a really interesting side love piece, which I won't spoil for folks who are excited to watch, which I thought was really interesting. I thought their chemistry, probably the best romantically in the series. Why don't I have six more scenes with them?

• 18:38Speaker 06

  Right.

• 18:38Speaker 05

  I need much more time with these people. How did you fall in love? What is your relationship like? What is hiding it like? How does it, the push and pull of each other? Like, you get so little of it that it's, oh, my gosh, I was dying. I was like, please, please. I love the love in a noir. It's always so sticky difficult.

• 18:54Speaker 06

  It is a lot of telling and not so much showing.

• 18:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Even in the Hoovervilles, to your point, Joelle, even in the Hoovervilles, people have kind of smudges on their faces like a high school production of Les Mis. And that's kind of where it kind of cuts off. I don't know. So, you know, you heard us talk about this, folks. We're not sold on it. You might be. It's very pretty to look at. That brings us to the end of our show. Joel Monique, Daisy Rosario, thank you so much for being here. We'll have a better thing next time.

• 19:21Speaker 05

  Thanks, Glenn.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  This episode was produced by Hafsa Patham and my cast of and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy, and Hello, Kim provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glen Weldon, and we'll see you all next time.

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