Pod Insights Pop Culture Happy Hour Leviticus About this episode You should see the new horror movie Leviticus. Set in a small Australian religious community, it’s about two queer teens that start having feelings for each other. Their relationship touches off a chain of increasingly violent events. It’s both a queer coming-of-age romance and a blistering indictment of gay conversion therapy. Mostly, though, it’s a seriously creepy movie about a demonic entity that knows exactly how to get to you.
If you like spine-tingling queer dramas, check out these episodes:
'I Saw the TV Glow' is weird and transfixing https://www.npr.org/2024/05/14/1197964549/i-saw-the-tv-glow-is-weird-and-transfixing
'Love Lies Bleeding' is the queer erotic thriller Kristen Stewart fans have wanted https://www.npr.org/2024/03/15/1197962965/love-lies-bleeding-is-the-queer-erotic-thriller-kristen-stewart-fans-have-wanted
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0:21 Speaker 01 You should go see the new indie horror film, Leviticus. It's both a queer coming-of-age romance and a blistering indictment of gay conversion therapy. Mostly, though, it is a seriously creepy movie about a demonic entity that knows exactly how to get to you. I mean, I think it's pretty terrific, but I'm curious to hear what the rest of the panel thinks. I'm Glen Weldon. Joining me today on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour is film and culture critic Kate Young. Hey, Kate. Thanks for having me. Also with us is freelance music and culture journalist Rihanna Cruz. Hey, Rihanna.
0:49 Speaker 02 Hey, Glenn. Happy to be here.
0:51 Speaker 01 Hey, let's get to it. Leviticus is set in a small Australian backwater where teenage Name and his mother belong to a religious community. Name is played by Joe Bird, who you might remember from Talk To Me. Stacy Klausen plays his friend Ryan. They start having feelings for each other, which touches off a chain of increasingly violent events. Name is stalked by a threatening presence that takes Ryan's form, while Ryan keeps getting attacked by something that pretends to be Name. Leviticus is in theaters now. Rihanna, kick us off. What'd you think?
1:20 Speaker 02 Leviticus feels like the type of gay movie that I would fixate on in high school. It's tone-driven. You know, the main characters kiss less than 10 minutes in. There's a Frank Ocean needle drop. It's kind of erotic. Like, it felt kind of like a fanfiction, and I think that's a feature, not a bug.
1:41 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:42 Speaker 02 However, at the same time, I don't know if I connected with it, to be honest. I think it's a kind of rare movie where it's gay horror done well, stepping outside of the box a little bit to focus on belonging, belief. You mentioned conversion therapy. That's the main theme. But I don't know, it just didn't really connect with me, I think. I find it defeatingly bleak in a way that I usually I like bleak movies.
2:11 Speaker 02 Not this one. I felt like it had surface level messaging in terms of queerness and community, you know, like the fear will never get you if you're never alone. That's kind of the message of the entity here. When I was watching it, I was like, technically, this is a good movie and I could see why people like it, but there's something missing, I think, between the film and me connecting with it. You know, like I finished the movie and it was kind of in one ear, out the other.
2:39 Speaker 01 Okay. How about you, Kate?
2:41 Speaker 03 I kind of feel the same. I didn't dislike it. I thought that it was good at the kind of like baseline horror stuff. It definitely had a really good, like creepy kind of atmosphere that really worked on me. I think the highlight for me is the actual relationship between this couple. I think they're very sweet. It reminded me a lot of Heartstoppers on Netflix. They're just like adorable and they have real chemistry and I think that that's something that could easily have been like overlooked because it's a horror film, but it not only hasn't been, but I think it makes the horror more visceral because the way in which this entity functions, it preys on the thing that you most love. And because we are able to
3:26 Speaker 03 see the way that they feel about each other every time they interact with this thing, it gets worse in ways that feel much more personal and much more upsetting, specifically because of that aspect of it.
3:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:38 Speaker 03 That I really liked. But I think in general, you know, it's kind of like its own play on it follows. That stuff is interesting, but it felt like there were really good moments kind of tied together with like bits that were fine.
3:52 Speaker 01 Okay. As you might have gleaned from my intro, I like this a lot. I kind of liked it a hell of a lot more than y'all did. I liked everything about it. From the look of it, you know, this dusty, rusted out factory town on the edge of the outback, which you can tell either say it or it's actually implied that it was built around the church. I really like these performances. These are not 30 year olds playing teenagers. Like that's key because so much of this movie is resting on these kids' shoulders in their performances itself. When I like a movie this much, I go out and I read the reviews because I want to hear the critiques. And I read one that was mostly positive, but mentioned in passing in a sentence, you know, sometimes the logic of the monster doesn't always make sense.
4:34 Speaker 01 And I remember just feeling so angry about that. I was gonna rush to the barricades to defend this because I don't know. I'll just speak for me as a queer man who was a queer kid. I think the conceit here, the premise, is something you could just bounce a quarter off of. I mean, the thing that will kill you takes the form of the thing you most desire. So these fundamentalists in this movie are weaponizing queer desire to rid themselves of queer people. Show me the lie. I mean, queer people grow up in communities that hate them and we internalize that hate. And that internalization is the thing that's doing the work that these bigots want to do. It is insidious, and that's exactly what this film captures, in a way that some people of faith might find unfair.
5:20 Speaker 01 I don't, because it gets something else correct, too. It gets this thing that was even more galling and I thought was even more accurate, which is, over the course of this film, a queer kid dies. And when that happens, those same bigots point to the queerness itself as the cause, completely absolving themselves and their hatred and their fear from the equation. Show me the lie. I mean, the metaphor there is airtight and it's about as good a working definition of evil as you're gonna find anywhere. I think you were on the show, Rihanna, when we talked about I Saw the TV Glow, right?
5:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, oh, totally. Love that flick, yeah.
5:58 Speaker 01 My defensiveness about this film kind of feels like the way I felt defensive about that film. And I understand there are very good films, but that is another queer film whose central metaphor is admittedly doing a lot of heavy lifting. But I will hear no disparagement because I don't know. I just feel so protective and I get the irony. I get that I am being evangelical about this film because I want people to see it. I want people to like it.
6:21 Speaker 02 Totally.
6:22 Speaker 01 Can you speak to something that just didn't hit you so that I may refute it?
6:25 Speaker 02 It's interesting, you know, hearing you talk Glenn, because some of the critiques that I had are now, I think, being recontextualized. I feel a little bit more compassionate towards this movie
6:39 Speaker 01 Okay.
6:40 Speaker 02 than I did. I think the movie does a lot of things well, you know, you mentioned the setting. I think the setting is a big factor in why this movie works. Because I think similar with TV Glow, which I loved and is one of my favorite movies of the past several years. Like, the setting in Dead End Suburbia
7:00 Speaker 01 Right.
7:00 Speaker 02 is something that really seeps in from every corner of the frame. You know, you're watching these characters ride their bikes next to a giant factory. They just exist in this context and everything makes sense that way. What didn't really do it for me is I, I, I felt like it was simple.
7:21 Speaker 01 Okay.
7:22 Speaker 02 largely. And when I watch horror movies, it's not like I need them to be grand and, and vast and tackle these large things. But I, I felt like the concept of Leviticus was written in one sentence and made into a movie. And that's what I mean when I say it's kind of fanfiction-y.
7:38 Speaker 01 Okay.
7:39 Speaker 02 Because when I was watching, it felt like you could plug in, you know, these famous gay ships that people on the internet do in this context. And maybe it's because I grew up on Tumblr, but this is a very like Tumblr-coded and appealing
7:57 Speaker 03 Yeah.
7:57 Speaker 02 narrative. And I thought that there was a little bit of a lack of complexity that I was searching for.
8:06 Speaker 03 That's a really good.
8:07 Speaker 02 And maybe that's, again, a feature, not a bug, but that's what I thought.
8:10 Speaker 01 Kate, what about you?
8:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think that that central metaphor slash representation of this monster, like, that works for me. In much the same way that you were explaining earlier, Glenn, like, I thought that that was actually really clever. Because it's simple, right? And it's easy to understand and easy to convey. But I love that you guys brought up, um, I saw the TV Glow, because that is a movie that deeply unsettled me when I saw it the first time. Like, even thinking about it now. Now, like, I can feel my pores rising because there was such a mood and atmosphere that really guided you towards this, like, totality of what it feels like to be in that position as a queer person and having to figure out how to move through the world. And I feel like with this film, we see them move through the world, but I don't really
8:56 Speaker 03 have a good sense of what their community actually is.
9:00 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
9:01 Speaker 03 We see them at church and we know that they're homophobic, but I feel like I don't have a sense of them within the spaces that they exist. They spend a lot of time alone together, which makes sense. But I think because of that, their relationship, as well as what they're struggling with and the introduction of this entity, it feels very singular. And I think because of that, it doesn't feel like I have a full enough story to really get invested. Honestly, to me, the reason to see this film is the performances. They're really good.
9:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
9:32 Speaker 03 And I, as I mentioned before, like, their chemistry is fantastic. Honestly, I think that the movie wouldn't have worked for me at all if
9:37 Speaker 02 Right.
9:37 Speaker 03 that wasn't there. But I don't know that I can say, like, bad things about it.
9:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
9:42 Speaker 03 But
9:43 Speaker 02 That's exactly how I feel.
9:44 Speaker 03 I'm cool on it.
9:45 Speaker 01 OK, we'll stick around. We'll have more thoughts on what worked and what didn't after this break.
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11:12 Speaker 01 And we're back. Okay, so you're both touching on critiques that I've actually seen when I read all those reviews. And it is a critique that I didn't object to because I kind of get it, which is that the religious community feels a bit underwritten. His mom certainly feels a little underwritten. I don't know, though, because there's a different version of this film, which is made more for like a four quadrant kind of mainstream audience, where we get a lot more of the religious community being, and again, like, no offense, but if Stephen King wrote this, Yeah. we would see the religious community being mustache, twirly evil, right? And taking joy in the destruction of queer lives. But what this film gets that I really liked, actually, is that's not how it works,
11:54 Speaker 01 because the kind of negations of self and the spirit that these folks are engaged upon is not something that's joyous and ecstatic. It makes everyone miserable because they know it's damage. They know it's abuse. And in this film, the people doing this harm are telling themselves they're doing it for the kid's good because his soul will be saved. And that also makes sense to me because that's what a community like this would trade upon. A kid dies, misery deepens, the community's sense of misery deepens. So as that happens, they need to reach for this sense of divine salvation. So the white knuckle grip on dogma just gets harder and harder. But I get it. On a script level, on a characterization level, you could say they're underwritten, or you could say, as I do, that I think they cracked it,
12:38 Speaker 01 because I think there's a truth here that goes deeper than the story beats and the demands of screenplay structure. Because if we got more of the religious folks, or God forbid, if like the preacher character became the villain, right, that they had to- Yeah.
12:54 Speaker 03 No, we didn't need him. We didn't need more of him.
12:56 Speaker 01 That would feel really artless and basic to me, and I kind of admire that they didn't go that way.
13:00 Speaker 03 Mm-hmm.
13:01 Speaker 01 But this is, as you both mentioned, this is a bleak film. And I know, we've talked on the show, I've talked to both of you about horror as trauma. They're intertwined. And we've also talked about queer trauma. This is, you know, two, two mincemeat. Yeah. So what would you say to folks who say, why would I want to see a film about queer trauma? Why can't there be a happy ending? Why, why would I subject myself to this? I hear this critique, by the way, from a lot of younger queer folks. And I get it, and I feel a certain way about it, but I want to hear what you guys think.
13:34 Speaker 03 I mean, I think the reason to see it, unfortunately, is the moment that we're in right now.
13:41 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
13:42 Speaker 03 I think that while I have issues with the structure, and I think the story's a little simple, that central metaphor does work. And I think the cleverness of that is what kind of hits you viscerally, especially with those performances. And I think that while we've been able to have a lot of queer stories that were more joyous, and were more exciting, and were written by Ryan Murphy, but like, I think that now, we're in this space where that kind of hope that we had is kind of leaching from the culture. It doesn't mean that I want like, more terrible sad things, but it makes sense to me that we would start making more art that reflects this moment. And unfortunately, it's not a great one.
14:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, it doesn't really leave you with a warm feeling in your heart. And I, I think that's good, you know? I, I like bleak movies. When I say it's defeatingly bleak-
14:33 Speaker 03 Yeah.
14:34 Speaker 02 I think that's a good thing, even though it didn't connect with me. But yeah, I agree with what Kate said, you know? There's room for movies like this. I mean, everybody's talked ad nauseam about how horror is having a moment right now.
14:47 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
14:47 Speaker 02 And this is a refreshing take on a kind of Gen Z horror.
14:55 Speaker 02 That is missing, I think, from the culture. I mean, we mentioned It Follows as kind of an or text for this film. But I think it does something different than It Follows. It's a little bit more complex than that narrative. And I like that. I don't know. I'm struggling with, you know, talking to you both about not liking the movie, or not even not liking it, just having it not do much for me, and then being here and being like, everybody should see it. And I think people should because, I don't know, even though it was kind of in one ear and out the other for me, I still respect what it's doing.
15:34 Speaker 02 I like that it's taking risks, even though those risks to me are not satisfying.
15:43 Speaker 03 What stops it from being like more terrible things on top of terrible things is the ending. And to me, that like little bit of hope, that little bit of refusal to succumb to the homophobia that they're being subjected to. To me, that is what is needed to kind of demonstrate that, like, yes, these things are bad. Yes, we're having to deal with them again. Yes, this is like a difficult moment for queer people, but like, we in deal. And to me, like, if the movie didn't have that, then I don't think it would have worked at all for me.
16:18 Speaker 01 Okay. Kate, you just crystallized something for me that maybe it's the reason I like this film as much as I do. Because I'm in a weird position here because the thing I hate most is messages in film, messages in a text. When I can feel it, when it's didactic in a way. And I would argue that this film is didactic. I just love the message. This film comes out and says essentially that if you are caught up in a situation where you are being hurt, where you're being hated. It's also saying implicitly, look, in an ideal world, things like family and community and religion should offer you support and safety. It's not always the case. And when they don't, and you're in danger because of it, when you're being actively hurt, you either get out or die. And if you give in to feelings of guilt or obligation to the very people who are hurting you. You can't. You gotta save yourself.
17:03 Speaker 01 And, you know, it's a simple message, but, whoa, boy. It hit me squarely in the solar plexus. And that's why I kind of came down on this movie differently than y'all did. But I think we all kind of agree it's worth seeing.
17:19 Speaker 03 Yeah, I do. I do. Totally. I do, for sure.
17:22 Speaker 01 Well, all right, so we're coming down slightly differently, but I think we all agree you should go see it. Some of us want you to go see it more than others. That brings us to the end of our show. Kay Young, Rihanna Cruz, thank you so much for being here.
17:31 Speaker 02 Thanks, Glenn. Happy to be here.
17:33 Speaker 03 Thanks for having me.
17:34 Speaker 01 Just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Lennon Sherburne, Liz Metzger, and Mike Katseff, and edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. And HoloKamin provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glen Weldon, and we'll see you all next time.
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