East of Eden

A new series on Netflix is taking a bold crack at the American classic. Maybe you read John Steinbeck’s East of Eden in school. Or maybe you’ve seen the very loosely-adapted film starring James Dean. Anchored by a fantastic Florence Pugh performance, this new adaptation follows multiple generations of the Trask family. The series is an epic retelling of their story that offers a fresh perspective for new audiences. Looking for more adaptations of classic literature? Check out these episodes: Little House on the Prairie https://www.npr.org/2026/07/14/nx-s1-5888602/little-house-on-the-prairie ‘Lord of the Flies’ gets the Netflix treatment https://www.npr.org/2026/05/07/nx-s1-5813726/lord-of-the-flies-gets-the-netflix-treatment Only Guillermo del Toro could've made this 'Frankenstein' https://www.npr.org/2025/11/07/nx-s1-5600702/only-guillermo-del-toro-couldve-made-this-frankenstein Connect with Pop Culture Happy Hour: Letterboxd https://letterboxd.com/nprpopculture/ / Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pchh Our weekly newsletter https://www.npr.org/newsletter/pop-culture Support public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org http://plus.npr.org/. See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel, that's your drive for more. Capella University's Flex Path learning format lets you earn your degree at your pace without putting life on pause. Learn more at capella.edu.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Listen, I've been on the East of Eden is better than Grapes of Wrath train

• 0:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  for like 15 years.

• 0:22Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Nobody believes me, nobody believes me, until, until it started getting popular on like TikTok or whatever. And now I'm like finding my people. And then Zoe Kazan heard of my proselytizing, right? She heard my sermon about how this book rocks and she decided to turn it into a series. So thank you.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  John Steinbeck's East of Eden is one of those canonical American works. Maybe you read it in school or you know, the very loosely adapted movie version starring James Dean. It's kind of bold to take a crack at a fresh perspective for a new audience for Netflix, all anchored by a fantastic Florence Pugh performance. I'm Aisha Harris. This is NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour. And joining me today is Andrew Limbong. He's the host of NPR's Book of the Day podcast and a reporter for the Culture Desk. Hey, Andrew, welcome back.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  Hey, what's up, Ayesha?

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Great to have you here. Also with us is the host of the podcast Happy to be here, Greta Johnson. Hey, Greta, welcome back to you, too.

• 1:19Speaker 03

  Hey, glad to be here.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  So excited to talk to you both about this. So East of Eden is about multiple generations of the Trask family. Christopher Abbott and Mike Feist play the adult versions of half brothers Adam and Charles, who come of age in Connecticut in the years following the Civil War. Now, their sibling dynamic is soured by their father's overt favoritism toward Adam. Adam falls for and marries Kathy Ames, played by Florence Pugh. He knows nothing of her past, which includes sex work and patricide.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  I like how you just lifted it. Oh, you know, just sex work and patricide, by the way. Yeah, just listen.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  It happens, you know.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  On a Thursday, whatever.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Look, this woman's got a lot of baggage here.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  So yeah, sex work and patricide. Also, against her protests, Adam insists they move to California to start a new life. An unhappy Kathy eventually gives birth to twin boys Caleb and Aaron and soon after abandons them.

• 2:16Speaker 04

  I didn't want to come here.

• 2:21Speaker 04

  I don't intend to stay here.

• 2:26Speaker 04

  And as soon as I can, I will go away.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Man, if only Adam would just listen to her.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Listen, man. So she changes her name to Kate, becomes the enterprising star of a brothel in Salinas. And in their mother's absence, the boys are primarily raised by Lee, a Chinese-American servant, who becomes something like an adopted member of the family. He's played by Hun Lee. This is the Cliff's Notes summary. The main thing to know is Adam repeats a lot of his own father's mistakes in relating to his sons. And Kathy is a uniquely wicked lady. Like I said, patricide.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  East of Eden was adapted for Netflix by Zoe Kazan. It's streaming now. And Andrew, I'm gonna just start with you. I think you've read East of Eden.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I read it. Listen, I've been on the East of Eden is better than Grapes of Wrath train

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  for like 15 years.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Nobody believes me, nobody believes me, until, until it started getting popular on like TikTok or whatever. And now I'm like finding my people. And then Zoe Kazan heard of my proselytizing, right? She heard my sermon about how this book rocks and she decided to turn it into a series. So thank you.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  Andrew, I had no idea that you were the inspiration of the new adaptation. That's amazing.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. See, I liked it before it was cool. Nobody else had ever heard of the Steinbeck guy until I turned 17 and started reading this book. I loved this. I think the long story, I thought it was great. I think something that I found interesting that I have a hard time put my finger on is it feels weighty. It feels like important and it feels expensive.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Like a lot of times I'll watch a Netflix show and it's like, yeah, shout out to Netflix made in, you know, originals. So it's like, oh, you guys filmed in Vancouver in like a weekend and I'm, you know, gonna crush this while folding laundry or whatever, right? This doesn't feel like a laundry show. It feels like something you have to sit down and like really digest.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  I thought it was great. It just reminded me of being a kid and watching like ABC used to have these like, uh, like big occasion, limited series, right? And like, you know, my dad would call them like have a party. So we'd like go to a bodega and get like chips and soda and like, it would be like an event, right? Because we weren't allowed to watch TV, but for some reason, these events were like something that we were allowed to do. And it feels like a callback to that. It feels very like old fashioned in a lot of ways, but it feels like it is trying to say, and we'll get into this more, it feels like it is trying to say something important and maybe even counter to what is norm culture these days in an interesting way.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah, yeah. I like what you said about it feeling expensive because when I think about, weirdly enough, this reminded me of Roots in a way.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Because you have decades going by, you have multiple generations of families. And then on top of that, you have like sometimes two to three different actors playing the same character because you're aging throughout time. There's a lot of casting here, there's a lot of characters, and there is a lot of expansive storytelling because it is an epic, it is, it's Steinbeck. And the book, I think, is like around 600 pages long, give or take.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  It's a hefty, yeah.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  So it's hefty. So expensive is a great word. Sweeping, I would use too. Okay, we're gonna hold that thought. Greta, I'm gonna turn to you. How do we feel about this?

• 5:45Speaker 03

  So I have not read East of Eden somehow. I have read Grapes of Wrath and Of Mice and Men, but I missed the East of Eden train.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Oh damn, you didn't hear me? My sermon didn't come to you. Didn't come towards your time.

• 5:59Speaker 03

  No, clearly I missed it, Andrew. I feel like there's pros and cons to not having read the book when you watch an adaptation like this. I think sometimes it's helpful because you're not necessarily like as burdened by feeling like you need to adhere to certain plot points or themes or characters being exactly the way they are in the book. And I think sometimes it can be really helpful then to just look at the TV show as like how it stands as a TV show and not an adaptation of a classic text. In this case, I had a number of frustrations. I think my biggest frustration was related to the well-known storytelling adage, show, don't tell.

• 6:41Speaker 03

  I feel like in this show, I was told a lot. And I found that really frustrating. And Ayesha, you actually mentioned the example of Adam, this son, feeling frustrated that he has repeated the mistakes of his father. And I mean, we literally had a scene where Adam's like, this is just like what my dad did. And those were the moments that I found really frustrating. I thought the casting was phenomenal. I thought the setting was gorgeous.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:06Speaker 03

  Clearly, they put a lot of work into this show. But I think for me, the biggest shortcoming was the script. And I just found that there was very little subtext here. And I found that really frustrating. And I don't know, I mean, I have a feeling, Andrew, that you are able to interpret this TV show more broadly because you do have the foundation of the text. But without that, I felt like the show was really missing something.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, Andrew, did you not hop on that?

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Let me think, because it's, it's actually been a minute since I read it. So I was like, I was turning to my, my wife had just read it like last year. And I was like,

• 7:39Speaker 03

  Oh, nice.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  I was like, is this what happened?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  I was like, I forgot about this.

• 7:45Speaker 03

  I think for me, a lot of it too comes down to like character motivation. It just felt to me like it wasn't there. And that was one especially where, like, why does Kathy marry Adam? Why does Adam want to marry Kathy? Why does she follow him to California? What does she want? I was not convinced in the show that those questions were clearly answered.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  See, I, I didn't have an issue with the character motivation in part because I think stemming from your other point, Greta, it did feel like we knew what everyone wanted, like because it was repeated over and over and over again. Or even like, not necessarily what they wanted, but you know, as I've alluded to already, listen, like how many characters? I feel like at least four different characters in this show tell Adam that he's not listening to them or that he's not listening to Kathy. And so there is a lot of underlining here. And I'm actually coming at it from the same space as you are, Greta. Like I did not have to read the book in school. I read Grapes of Wrath and Of Mice and Men. And then interestingly enough, Travels with Charlie.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  East of Eden, my sole reference point was because I became obsessed with old movies and James Dean. The version that I was familiar with was the 55 version directed by Zoe's grandfather, actually, Elia Kazan. And that version only covers the third act of the, the book. And it was really interesting. I rewatched East of Eden for the first time in years, the movie version, right before watching this. And it was very interesting to get like a prequel of the movie that I grew up watching. And then also like seeing a new version of the movie that I grew up watching because it does encompass most of the book here. I enjoyed it.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  I thought Florence Pugh is just really, really fantastic here with a difficult character. And I guess we should probably maybe talk about her because, again, Greta and I haven't read the book, but from what I've read, it seems as though this version that Zoe Kazan is adapting and sort of creating here is actually way more focused on Kathy than the book was. Like the book includes like a whole other family and we only get like a glimpse of that family here, the Hamiltons. Like, I don't even know if their, their side characters are kind of like tertiary characters in this version. What do we think of this imagining of Kathy?

• 10:11Speaker 01

  I thought it was a really interesting way to plumb the depths of what we consider like evil. The whole shtick of the book is to be like, is inherent evil like a thing? Are people just like born with like a dark heart and just suck and are bad, right? Or like, or is it made by choices? And I thought by giving her more heft, her backstory more heft, it doesn't make her more sympathetic necessarily, which is what the criticism I've seen people, it's like, oh, you're supposed to like side with her. It's like, not really, bro. She, like, I don't understand. She's still, she still seems like a pretty bad person.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  It seems like she comes out the womb pretty bad. Like, I, like, it's, it's not like something happens to her. At least I didn't get the sense that something happened to her that turned her quote unquote bad in the way it's sometimes those stories do, but maybe I'm reading it differently.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  Ayesha, I do think that interpretation is really funny because I feel like so much of this show is trying to argue that there is no such thing as inherent goodness or inherent evil. But then it's like, well,

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:14Speaker 03

  Kathy's just rotten.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Except for this one.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Except for this lady, this wicked lady.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think it's especially compared to, especially, I think, in the, in the back third of the show, right, when you're dealing with her sons and her sons having to, especially Cal, right, having to-

• 11:32Speaker 03

  The bad one.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  The bad one, yeah. Having to reconcile how he wants to be versus who his mother is. You know, I think the weight of her backstory, her history, gives that tension so much more to chew on, more depth, you know?

• 11:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  You know, everybody, everybody thinks their parents are messed up or whatever, right? And then you'd be like, hey, parent, why did you mess me up? And they're always be like, you don't understand how I grew up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, well- This is affected this interaction, this relationship.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  They sort of don't have that conversation, but you, as if you were knowing everything that Kathy's been through, it's like, you have to weigh, it's like, how much does what she's been through matter, you know, on how she treated her children?

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think if I had to pick one flaw out of this adaptation, it is the fact that up until the last episode, I feel like it skirted away from making us wanting to feel bad for her. Like, I was just looking at her the whole time, being like, oh, she's very savvy, she's enterprising, that doesn't make her a good person, and I don't feel bad for her. But also, like, I kind of understood to some extent why she made some of the choices she did. Not all of them, but like, being a sex worker, for one thing, it's like, yeah, I mean, and wanting to be good at it, and she's very good at it, in a business sense, and, and trying to, and it's all motivated by her own interests.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  She doesn't actually really care about anyone else. But I liked that. And it was good to see a character like that. And then there is that last moment in, in the final episode where I, I also found the metaphor that they were trying to allude to, like, confusing. I was like, huh, like, this is a little too vague and a little too, I don't understand what we're trying to show here. And then it gets into some magical realism in a way, or sort of like-

• 13:19Speaker 03

  Hallucinatory something, yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, choices were made, and I'm not sure those choices worked. But I appreciated that, like, for most of the runtime, I did not feel bad for her. And I didn't want to because she kept doing horrible things, and everyone she crossed paths with met very, very terrible, or at least, like, kind of sad fates. Like, her kids are the only, well, that's not even true either, but like, they are better off to some extent because she's not there, if that makes sense.

• 13:47Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Oh, totally. You could argue that the best thing that she did was bounce, right?

• 13:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:52Speaker 03

  Well, that's interesting, too, because she lies so much. Like, almost all the time, she's lying to people. But she was always very honest with Adam about, like, no, I'm gonna get the hell out of here the minute I can.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. All right. After the break, we've got more thoughts about East of Eden.

• 14:09Speaker 05

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• 15:24Speaker 02

  I'm curious about, like, Adam to some extent, and again, he's played by Christopher Abbott here, who I think is doing really, really great work. But that's a complicated character, too, because Adam is kind of like, I don't know, a lot of things happen to him, but he's not necessarily motivating the story. And I think that contrast between him and Lee, who is played by Hun Lee, and another character, Lee, who's like, way, I think, from my understanding, is way bigger here, or more interestingly explored in the book. I mean, what do we make of that sort of dynamic of, like, we're seeing a male figure in these kids' lives, in what would be typically, you'd see a woman in this role, and given the time period, you would probably maybe even see a black woman in this role, but

• 16:09Speaker 02

  we're seeing an Asian American man. And I thought that was really something I enjoy kind of sinking teeth into. But like, there are some people who might argue, is this the quote-unquote woke version of East of Eden?

• 16:21Speaker 01

  What was that movie? It was like, um, Tom Selleck and two other guys-

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Tom Selleck.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Have to take care of a baby.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Three Men and a Baby.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Three Men and a Baby, yes.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. Or like Full House.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, totally.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:34Speaker 03

  Uh-huh.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  It did remind me kind of, just like that kind, I guess Nate Bargatze did just make a similar movie of like, oh, guys are bad at that, or it's like, two guys just figuring out how to dad it up and be like, I don't know, brother.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  And Christopher Abbott just be like, I don't know what I'm doing. And Lee being like, well, you know, you gotta feed them, right? You gotta do some of these basic caretaking things.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  In as much as some people have criticized this series for, you know, turning Kathy into a girl boss, right, into like, effeminizing the show, it is a very masculine family. It is a very masculine show. There are a lot of dudes in this central family. I don't think, I was like, had to go back to Tom Selleck to think of like, the last time I saw such a, like, a guy family unit, you know?

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is very interesting. Other than Florence Pugh, one of the only major female characters we have is Faye, who's played by the great Martha Plimpton. And Faye is the brothel owner-

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Oh, there's the girlfriend. What's her name?

• 17:37Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, Abra.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Oh, Abra. Yeah, that's true. Abra just felt so kind of inconsequential.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Wow, damn, shout out Abra.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Abra had a way bigger, I feel like, presence in the 55 movie version than she does here. But yeah, Faye, like, takes Kathy slash Kate under her wing, and then eventually has her own fate, unfortunately, tied up with Kathy. To think about the way that this, the show sort of like brings in all this masculine energy while critiquing it, like, are there any other things that felt sort of, I don't know, modernized, or felt just like Zoe Kazan was trying to sort of mine our present day for a modern audience through this very old story? I mean, like you were saying before we started taping, Andrew, this is like, it's the bible.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny, so I have Broke Person Netflix, right, which means I get, you get the ads every now and then.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  Oh, no, Andrew.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  I'm sorry.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Listen, the budget's been crazy.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Look, I feel ya.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Listen, listen, donate to your local public radio station. And, you know, you would have scenes of Lee being disappointed that his mentor sold out and now works in gambling, and then you're hit with like, a gambling ad. You know what I mean?

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  And the attitudes about sex and promiscuity, this is a very, like, small C conservative show, right? In the world of the show, there are things that are good and things that are bad, right? There are, gambling is bad, drinking, you probably shouldn't do it that often. You know, sex, I feel like has a weird relationship about sex where it's like, to do it in exchange of money is probably bad, is what the show is trying to say. The show isn't afraid to yuck people's yum in that manner. In this society we live in, it's sort of hands-off. It's like, oh, well, you do what you gotta do, da-da-da-da-da, you know, I'm not gonna try to, like, rain on anybody's parade. If it's not hurting anybody directly, you know, you should be free to do it.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  It was interesting how the show was like, maybe we should consider that some things are bad, you know? Not people.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:39Speaker 03

  Well, also people. I think that is also, you know, I think that's also on the table with this.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  True.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  I mean, because for all the bad things that Kathy slash Kate does, like, there are still plenty of people who also, like, will try to take advantage of her, um, and get one over on her. They may not be as successful because she's way craftier and she can see things coming from a mile ahead, but like, the world around her is also kind of cruel. And I think that that's something that this story is really trying to hammer home. But then we also find the moments of softness. And again, I think so much of that comes out of the Lee character that I found really, really compelling. When he gets away from the family, like, it does focus a little bit on what it's like for him to be an Asian

• 20:27Speaker 02

  American, a Chinese American, and, and the reactions to that. And we get sort of the, what I think has now become sort of the standard conversation of like, I speak this one way because white people expect me to, but then, like, and that's how I play the game. And while I found that a little bit like, huh, I don't know, this feels, I've seen this many times before. I think I read somewhere that this is actually in the book, like, that this is-

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I rolled my eyes at it at first and then went downstairs to check my copy. And I was like, okay.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Fine, you can get away with this one.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, sometimes you gotta check yourself, because it's like, you know what, actually, we have been having these same conversations for like, hundreds of years. So like, it's not that out of the realm.

• 21:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  I really liked the softness that Lee has in this masculine figure. And he's like, really the only sort of stabilizing force within all of this chaos. And I just thought that was really lovely. And I thought, you know, Hun Lee just gives like, such a really- Beautiful performance that like I think stands alongside and contrasts with Florence Pugh's character and her performance in such a lovely way.

• 21:29Speaker 03

  I thought he was phenomenal. He was probably my favorite part of the show.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:33Speaker 03

  And I think too, like, the woke argument is a bit frustrating. I mean, I am also not opposed to diversifying cast in historical shows. But also, there were very, very many Chinese Americans in the West in early American history. And also to negate that is just like, not factual.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think we all recommend checking it out. It's, it's long. It's seven hours. But people rode hard for Little Women a few years ago, like the Greta Gerwig version.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  I loved that version. Yeah. Speaking of Florence Pugh.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  This is not my normal wheelhouse. I'm not, I'm not a lit nerd and especially not like a period piece lit nerd. That's not usually my thing. But even if I didn't have to watch this for this show, I would probably have finished it. I was that kind of into it and invested in these characters.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  I was also curious, not to get too just like meta textual. It's like, let's see how this Professor Xavier is looking.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Oh, oh.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Let's see. Let's see. Last time I saw Christopher Abbott was in Girls, you know, nose tight, whatever. But I was like, let's see, let's see how Professor X is, if he's got the sauce. And I don't know.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Funny.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  I think jury's still out on that one for me, but.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  I thought him, I thought Christopher Abbott and Mike Feist were really great. I honestly wanted a little bit more Mike Feist, to be honest. He's got some, some tension bubbling under there that I think was kind of in Challengers, but I think we get even more of here. And I'm just like, yes, I want more of that from this man. Well, you heard it from us. Give it a shot if you haven't already. I think we all more or less enjoyed it. Like, it's interesting. It's a really interesting piece of work.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Totally. I think it's one of those shows, and I wish there were kind of a word for this, where like, it's good enough that I have frustrations, you know? It's not just, like, you don't just totally write it off because it is bad. There are potentials that I wish had been better, but I think it is still, I think that makes for a really interesting discussion, you know?

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, the word is, uh, Tim Shell. It's like, you may like it or not.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Thou mayest like this show.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Thou mayest like show or you mayest.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Oh, my god. Perfect, Andrew.

• 23:41Speaker 03

  Oh, that was perfect, Andrew. Thank you for hitting me over the head with that again.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  That brings us to the end of our show. Greta Johnson, Andrew Limbog, thanks so much for being here. Thou mayest, uh, go off and enjoy your lives.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  Thanks, Ayesha. This episode was produced by Hafsa Fatima, Liz Metzger, Mike Kassab, and edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. Hello Command provides our theme music. And thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris. We'll see you all next time.

• 24:20Speaker 05

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• 25:05Speaker 05

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