Unapologetically basic TV and movies that we love

When you hear the words “pumpkin spice latte,” maybe you think of fall. But maybe you just think about the pleasures of something unapologetically basic. The same can be said for movies and TV. Today, we are revealing some of the most basic things we really love – including National Treasure, Mamma Mia! Here We Go Again, Dateline NBC, and The People’s Court. Looking for more episodes like this? Check out: We talk pop culture pumpkin spice lattes: they're basic but we love them https://www.npr.org/2024/10/10/1210938381/we-talk-pop-culture-pumpkin-spice-lattes-theyre-basic-but-we-love-them We debate the best movies to watch on an airplane https://www.npr.org/2024/12/19/1220280835/we-debate-the-best-movies-to-watch-on-an-airplane YouTube rabbit holes that are great distractions https://www.npr.org/2024/11/05/1211597320/youtube-rabbit-holes-that-are-great-distractions Connect with Pop Culture Happy Hour: Letterboxd https://letterboxd.com/nprpopculture/ / Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pchh Our weekly newsletter https://www.npr.org/newsletter/pop-culture Support public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org http://plus.npr.org/. See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 02

  I'm defining basic here as the familiar, right? The comfortable, the mainstream, not in any way challenging or difficult. Because you know what this film interrogates is nothing.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  When you hear the words pumpkin spice latte, maybe you think of fall, maybe you think of cloves, but maybe you just think, ah, the pleasures of something that is unapologetically basic. Well, the same can be said for movies and television. So today, the hosts of Pop Culture Happy Hour are revealing some of the most basic things we really, really love. I'm Linda Holmes and joining me are my fellow hosts, Aisha Harris. Hello, Ayesha.

• 1:13Speaker 03

  Hello, Lynda. I'm slightly embarrassed, but we're gonna get through this together.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  We're gonna do it together. Stephen Thompson, hello, Stephen.

• 1:20Speaker 04

  Hello, Lynda.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Glen Weldon, hi, Glenn. Pumpkin spice must flow. Hey, Lynda. That's right. All right. We actually didn't talk too much about what we meant by pop culture pumpkin spice lattes, but I think we didn't really have to. These are things that are unpretentious, ubiquitous, ultra-basic pop culture pleasures for which we can confess a weakness. Stephen, I am gonna start with you because I feel like it and because I know that the basic lies within you. Tell me what you chose.

• 1:56Speaker 04

  I am nothing if not a basic, basic man. So I think I've mentioned this before, but my partner and I have a family tradition where every July 4th weekend, we gather to watch a big dumb movie about America. Independence Day is key to this tradition, so is Team America World Police. But the linchpin of this tradition is the extremely convoluted movie franchise National Treasure. Now, if you've never seen the National Treasure movies, or if you've seen the National Treasure movies and forgotten them immediately, they're from 2004 and 2007. They star Nicolas Cage as a treasure hunter who comes from a long line of treasure hunters, as one does.

• 2:38Speaker 04

  In both movies, he winds up embarking on a highly ridiculous, extremely Byzantine plan to steal various national artifacts, including the literal Declaration of Independence, in order to unlock secret treasures and clear his family name and blah, blah, blah. It's very complicated. These movies are so silly, but what makes them transcendent as pop culture pumpkin spice lattes is that I watch them and forget them almost immediately. Which means that every time I watch them, I'm like a newborn baby, like no recollection whatsoever. Every time I watch National Treasure, which I have watched several times now, it's new to me.

• 3:21Speaker 04

  Basically, if the Da Vinci Code is too plausible for you, too devoted to airtight logic, the National Treasure movies are right there. They're streaming on Disney Plus for you to watch, enjoy, forget immediately, and then watch again. And let me tell you, we've been waiting almost 20 years for National Treasure 3, and when it comes out, I will be first in line and I will remember none of it the next day.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Is that a thing that's actually happening, or is that a joke?

• 3:46Speaker 04

  They've been talking about it, planning it. I mean, these movies made a ton of money. There's been a TV spinoff on Disney Plus. They've definitely kept this franchise alive, but there have been like aborted plans to reboot this franchise for almost 20 years now. And it just hasn't happened. They haven't been happy with the scripts, because you know, these other two scripts, they're a hard act to follow.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Let me ask you this. I have never seen any of these movies. Can you invite me some year?

• 4:14Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  All right.

• 4:15Speaker 04

  My god, man.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  It's on the books.

• 4:16Speaker 04

  Come over now.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  It's on the books. We gotta watch National Treasure.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Like Lynda, this was one of those cinematic phenomenons that missed me completely. So during COVID, I thought, I'll watch the first movie. I'll dip a toe in. And that toe got covered in stupid so fast that I whipped it right back. I mean, look, I am a person who consumes a lot of media involving people in tights and capes, beating the snot out of each other. I know from stupid. I know the joys of stupid. This just isn't the species of stupid that works on me.

• 4:48Speaker 04

  I will say, I don't think I've ever watched these movies when it was in July 4th weekend, and I do think that's part of the fun of just like silly summer streaming nonsense. Is it stupid? Yes. Is that part of the fun? Absolutely.

• 5:00Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  I see it.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  Well, look, I'm gonna go on record here and say that I have also not explored this franchise.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Come to town, come to town.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  Honestly, this would have been right in my wheelhouse, at least age-wise, when this movie came out. But I completely skipped it, and I've definitely seen it on in the background when I'm like at the gym on cable TV and it's playing.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  It's a TBS mainstay. Yep.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. It's that kind of thing. But I've never actually tried to watch it. I've seen some of the most obscure, direct-to-video Nicolas Cage movies, and yet somehow I have not seen this.

• 5:35Speaker 04

  I don't know if I would recommend watching it by yourself.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  Oh, well, no, I would never, never. I would need some lubricants and at least two or three other people to watch this with, I think, but.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  And where is Nicolas Cage in this? Like, what level of Nicolas Cage is he?

• 5:49Speaker 03

  Ooh, good question.

• 5:50Speaker 04

  Um, he's still kind of a Nicolas Cage leading man.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:54Speaker 04

  And as far as the weirdness that you're gonna get from a Nicolas Cage, I mean, first of all, his dad in these films is played by Jon Voight.

• 6:02Speaker 04

  So they certainly lean into like, this guy's slightly odd.

• 6:05Speaker 03

  Slightly.

• 6:05Speaker 04

  But it's not as like fiercely committed as your kind of wildest Nicolas Cage performances, for sure.

• 6:11Speaker 03

  It's not Face Off, it's not Con Air.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Vampire's Kiss, no.

• 6:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's another strike against it for me. I'm like, I want my Nicolas Cage weird, or at least if he's gonna be a leading man, still a little bit weird, like moonstruck. Like, I want that kind of stuff.

• 6:26Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  I don't know. But I admire this basicness. I love it for you.

• 6:30Speaker 04

  I'm not saying these movies are great.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  No, I know.

• 6:33Speaker 04

  I'm saying they're basic and they're fun under certain circumstances.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  I think that's gonna be a recurring theme of this entire episode.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. I agree. So Stephen's pick is the National Treasure franchise. We appreciate you, buddy. Now, Glenn, you were talking about how you have taken in a lot of content, shall we say, that has people in tights beating each other up. You did not pick anything like that for this, but you did pick a film. Tell me about it.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  All right. Producer Lennon Sherburne, hit me one time.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Such a good pick. Such a good pick.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  And against type.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  All right. We all know what that is, right? And let's stipulate, that is not just Dancing Queen by ABBA. That is a cover of Dancing Queen by ABBA, the second cover of Dancing Queen by ABBA that occurs in the Mamma Mia verse. It was first covered, of course, in Mamma Mia the Movie 2008. This is the version from 10 years later, the film Mamma Mia, Here We Go Again, which, I would argue, is as basic as it gets. This is alkaline. This is pH 14. This is cinematic Drano. I'm defining basic here as the familiar, right? The comfortable, the mainstream, not in any way challenging or difficult. Because you know what this film interrogates is nothing.

• 7:58Speaker 03

  Paternity, right?

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Well, sure.

• 8:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  But that's more the first film. This is familiarity.

• 8:04Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Freshly interpreted for 2018, but not in any way that is a take on the material that undermines it, or deconstructs it, or critiques it, or comments on it, or holds it up to any kind of scrutiny. That's not the mission brief here. This is just serving it up and serving it up with love. And Mamma Mia, Here We Go Again, we covered this on this show. I reviewed it for NPR. I said then that this movie is not just a box of wine. It is not just a box of rosé wine. It is not just a box of white Cinninandel. It is a box of blush wine. It is that basic, that enjoyable. And in the scene we just heard, a flotilla of boats covered in colorful flags, carrying two of Amanda Seyfried's characters, father figures, Colin Firth and Stellan Skarsgård,

• 8:49Speaker 02

  sort of curve into the harbor. And her characters dance down to the docks to meet them, and the characters on the boats disembark and dance on the docks. And I said at the time, I'm gonna keep this scene in like a tab on my browser just to have at the ready when the afternoons get long and dispiriting, because it is balm in Gilead. Now, both Mamma Mias are just serving up familiar songs in new contexts, and that is the very specific pleasure that they afford. They are, in other words, both jukebox musicals.

• 9:20Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  And I'm here to say a few words, not just to praise Mamma Mia, Here We Go Again, which is better than the first film, just if you just do the calculus of it, because we're gonna take a song away from Pierce Brosnan, smart move, and we're gonna introduce Cher and give her two songs. That's a winning formula. That is good math. Also, the main characters in this movie actually treat the staff of the hotel and the locals as human beings and just ignore them and never thank them. That's also an improvement. But I am here mostly to defend the jukebox musical as a basic institution. But first, I want to get your reactions. When I say jukebox musical, what are your associations with it?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  I would say mixed, right? I think some are good and are a lot of fun, and some are so transparently just a thing to hang songs on that there is no reason to really watch the entire thing, rather than just listening to the songs. So mixed, I would say.

• 10:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have been in a jukebox musical, actually. It was not a good one. It was all shook up at the Ogunquit Playhouse in 2009, co-starring Sally Struthers.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 10:24Speaker 03

  So.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  I love this.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  I had very mixed feelings about jukebox musicals.

• 10:28Speaker 04

  I have really positive associations with them, in part because Glen Weldon and I took in The Cher Show.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Oh, god.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:35Speaker 04

  On Broadway together, sat next to each other, drinking very costly rosés out of giant, very expensive plastic cups.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, we did.

• 10:43Speaker 04

  And it was a hoot and a holler. So I think when I think of jukebox musicals, I think I'm just agreeing with Glen Weldon that they are a basic pleasure. Are they a mixed bag? Absolutely. But also, you have not yet spoken the one word about Mamma Mia, Here We Go Again that really sells how great this movie is. And that word is Fernando.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  I was getting to it. Trust me, I was getting to it. All right. So here's the thing about jukebox musicals. Theater folks look down on them. Certainly theater critics look down on them. I was in the trenches long enough to know that. I would imagine, Stephen, that music folks also look down on them because they're basically greatest hits albums, right? That's how they're seen, I guess.

• 11:28Speaker 04

  Right. You're not really even reviewing them as any kind of new thing.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Right. Because in a jukebox musical, it's not the joy of discovery. Like, you're hearing a new melody you've never heard before and you're like, well, this is going to become a personality. And you're also not getting the novelty of freshness of new interpretation. If you've seen Sondheim's Company 15 times, you know the trajectory of the evening, but you don't exactly know how they're going to, like, put a spin on these familiar songs. In a jukebox musical, you know the songs are ready or they don't work at all. What they deliver instead, and I was struggling to figure out how to say this, it's the joy of ingenuity. How do we fit these songs into the narrative? That is the joy they offer. It's musical Tetris, right? Where do these songs come in? When do they come? What sets them up? What specific sequence of events, or especially the thing I love is the dialogue

• 12:13Speaker 02

  that will occur just before we hear the opening bars of a song like Dancing Queen, a song that we already, as a people, as a culture, we're already off book on. Because there is, even when it's sweaty, especially when it's sweaty, there is a smile you get on your face. You turn to your fellow theater goer when it happens and you're like, wait, Andy Garcia's character's name is Fernando and Cher's character, Ruby, knew him when they were younger. And that is a pleasure that is so specific, so bespoke, so artisanal, so endemic to the jukebox musical and only the jukebox musical. And you're watching Cher white knuckle her way down those stairs towards Fernando, asking if he can hear the drums.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  I'll give you this much. It's not a feat of pure creation like songwriting is that happens in musicals. It's basically a feat of construction. It's not an art. It's not a science. I guess I would say it's a craft. You know, it is made for commercial purposes and to deliver that pop, that little bolus of delight that I think needs to be respected a hell of a lot more than it is.

• 13:17Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 13:18Speaker 04

  I like this.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  I love this for you. I have not seen Mamma Mia Here We Go Again. I have seen Mamma Mia.

• 13:24Speaker 04

  Aisha Harris.

• 13:26Speaker 03

  I've seen Mamma Mia. It sounds like Mamma Mia Here We Go Again might actually be like the Magic Mike XXL of its franchise.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  That's a great simile.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very similar. Ayesha, it's very similar.

• 13:36Speaker 04

  A film I considered picking for this segment.

• 13:38Speaker 03

  Oh, good. I love Magic Mike XXL.

• 13:41Speaker 04

  I think it may be too good to be considered basic.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I agree. But look, I appreciate the simple pleasures. And I will say that, like, ABBA is a pop group, probably the rare pop group, actually, that actually lends itself to this type of theatricality. I saw the Tupac jukebox musical on Broadway.

• 13:57Speaker 04

  Oh, boy.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  Woof. It was awful. It didn't make sense. It's Tupac. And I kind of blame Lin-Manuel Miranda for that because, not that he was involved, but I feel like his brand of rap made people think that that would translate to Broadway. It didn't work. But it sounds like I need to check out Mamma Mia Here We Go Again. You've kind of convinced me.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  You need to get as many straight women and gay men in a room as you can, and as much blush wine as you can fit on a shelf, and let the spigot flow.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  All right.

• 14:27Speaker 04

  Honestly, double feature. National treasure. Mamma Mia Here We Go Again.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  We're doing it.

• 14:31Speaker 04

  Y'all come.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  We're doing it. We're doing it. All right. So that is Mamma Mia Here We Go Again. I think there is some charm in the fact that they actually called it Here We Go Again.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Wisely, wisely. All right. There are two films. We have got some very basic television right after the break, so stick around.

• 14:53Speaker 00

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• 16:08Speaker 01

  Welcome back. If you are not following Pop Culture Happy Hour yet, hit that follow button on your podcast app. Stay plugged in on everything PCH has to offer. We are continuing our selection of pop culture pumpkin spice lattes, by which we mean the very, very basic. And as soon as this idea for this episode came up, I knew exactly what I was going to say. And I said it immediately to our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. I said, this is how I'm going to get show value out of all of the old episodes of Dateline that I watch. Now, Dateline NBC started as a regular general interest news magazine in the early 90s.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  And there used to be this world of primetime network news magazines of general interest, similar to something like 60 Minutes, right?

• 16:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  2020, 48 Hours, Dateline. Those are sort of the big three. All of them, over time, and particularly in the last maybe eight to 10 years, kind of the post serial environment, all of them have pretty much become true crime murder shows. And so you will sit down, you will get, you know, a 911 call, followed by an investigation, followed by an arrest, followed by a trial. To say that on Dateline, usually the husband did it, is an oversimplification, but not a lie. Listen, I am well aware of the ethical morass of the true crime genre

• 17:38Speaker 01

  and the enjoyment thereof. But in some ways, I appreciate the less pretentious, the less fancy, the more basic approach to true crime of something like Dateline than something where they try to dress it up and make you think that they are doing something that is not a bit sensational, right? I do appreciate, and, you know, listen, none of this makes this particular pleasure anything that it isn't. But I do appreciate that I think over time, they've gotten a little better at covering the murders of women who are not white. They have covered a decent number of people who have been exonerated, people who are wrongfully convicted, so that you don't get purely, the investigation is always correct, the police

• 18:20Speaker 01

  are always correct. They do spend some time very often on, you know, people who are suspected of the crime and perhaps remain under suspicion for a long time and, you know, ultimately are not guilty of anything, which I think is important balance to provide. I am not, like, saying this is not what it is. But this show, and also 2020, and also 48 Hours, are things that I sometimes put on when I'm doing something like sorting laundry or cleaning the house, going through clutter, for the simple reason that they appeal to me as, you know, a story that will ultimately have an ending.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  The overwhelming majority of the time on Dateline, not always, but the overwhelming majority of the time, the story is, the person gets arrested and is ultimately convicted and goes to prison and good. That's usually the ending. And along the way, you do get to enjoy a certain number of the cliches of Dateline, which I am given to believe they even have a bit of a sense of humor about. One of the hosts, Josh Mankiewicz, follows me on Blue Sky, and I'm given to believe that he has found occasional humor in things like, I love watching somebody on Dateline being interviewed early in the episode and trying to figure out from what they're wearing, whether they're in prison. Because sometimes you look at it and you're like, that person is wearing a plain blue collared shirt. He could be in prison.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Maybe orange is his color.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  He could be in prison and it is clear, you realize clearly it's something that they do intentionally. They try to make it difficult from the interview to tell that this is a person who they are interviewing who is incarcerated. And those little things like, you know, Keith Morrison, who is the kind of white haired correspondent who Bill Hader used to do on SNL and things like that, certainly, I think leans into the cliches of his voice and his delivery. I'm not super proud of this, but like a pumpkin spice latte, I do find some enjoyment in it. I do find some satisfaction in it. Stephen and I both love comeuppance. These are very often comeuppance stories. And so, you know, with appropriate

• 20:27Speaker 01

  understanding of the ethical quandaries of the true crime genre, I do watch old Dateline sometimes.

• 20:34Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 20:35Speaker 04

  I love it. Yeah. And I think you get at part of the appeal of something like this, which one thing that makes a great pop culture pumpkin spice latte is familiar rhythms.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 20:45Speaker 04

  And the familiar rhythms that you're describing of this show are not unlike the familiar rhythms of a law and order.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, yes.

• 20:52Speaker 04

  You know exactly what you're gonna get. These beats are all extremely pleasing. And of course, the fact that it's about real life murder kind of creates some kind of ethical squishiness, but come on, you're not made of stone.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you addressed my question, which was, you know, the true crime genre a lot. It's 2026. Lots been written and said about it. And the kind of people who dump on it tend to be the kind of people who dump on any kind of genre.

• 21:16Speaker 04

  Right.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  The difference is that there is, as we've all talked about, there's real human suffering, lives ended or ruined or both.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  There is.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  And of course, that can be approached responsibly. It can also be crassly exploited.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  I don't know where Dateline falls on this spectrum. Where does it fall on this spectrum?

• 21:32Speaker 01

  I will say, usually Dateline involves the participation of the families of the victim of the crime. I do appreciate that because it gives them an opportunity to talk about the person and to talk about the impact on the family and the loss. So I think you get that side of it a little bit. With that said, I think all true crime has that, right? Including the absolute most highbrow, you know, I mean, In Cold Blood has that, you know?

• 22:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  And I guess I feel like with this, I feel sort of medium. I feel both that I learn, if you pay attention to this with a kind of a critical eye, with a little bit more of a societally critical eye, you can pick up a lot of things about stuff like the risks of getting together very, very young, the risks of substance issues in relationships between people and how that can kind of spin out of control, the way that people respond to ego injury with violence and things like that. And there are times when I look at the show and I think like, they have got to get a little more savvy about some of this stuff because one of the things you do get is like, nobody could believe that this guy was violent

• 22:49Speaker 01

  because he worked in law enforcement. And if you watch these for long enough, you're like, yeah, you gotta stop being quite so shocked. Like, again, not because it's everybody, but like, you gotta stop being like especially shocked, right?

• 23:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  And you do get those things. And so I think you've got to keep a little bit of a critical eye. But again, it's compelling to me and I'm just fessing up, Glenn. I'm just fessing up.

• 23:11Speaker 04

  I appreciate it. I get it.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  That's what we're all here for. Unlike the previous two picks, this is one that I definitely have watched a lot of, not recently, but it was part of my education growing up. Definitely watched 48 Hours, definitely watched Dateline, remember coming across things like To Catch a Predator. Like, this was such an era and it's still airing now, right? But like,

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. They're still making it.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  I'm just curious how, how the ratings are now that we have all these true crime podcasts and what that's like.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  I don't honestly know, but I do know that it's been incredibly durable. And I think one of the reasons it has been so durable is that it has shifted so much. I mean, I think if they were still trying to make a 60 Minutes type of show

• 23:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  for primetime, it probably wouldn't be. But again, 48 Hours and 2020 have gone exactly the same direction. They are all now true crime shows, for the most part. At certain moments in history, particularly like at the beginning of COVID, you know, some of these shows did take time and do kind of more general interests, kind of know what's going on with this. And they will still do sometimes remembrances. Dateline actually just ran a Dolly Parton remembrance as one of their episodes. So it still happens. It's sort of like the transformation into something different from what these news magazines originally were is thorough, but not complete.

• 24:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  You know?

• 24:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  So that is my pick. My pick is old episodes of Dateline and new ones. But, you know, if I'm doing the binge watch for house cleaning, it'll be old ones, which I find on Peacock. And I'm going to go to you. I should have closed this out with something that I also love and I'm very excited about talking about.

• 24:48Speaker 04

  Same.

• 24:49Speaker 03

  Look, I don't think this is a secret. I think I've talked about this briefly in the past on this show, but I love the People's Court.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  It is. Now, look, this is a long running show. It's no longer running new episodes, but it ran from 1980s into the early 90s. Back then, it was presided over by Judge Joseph Wapner. And then it was revived in the mid 90s and eventually landed on Judge Marilyn Millian, who is the one that I have always watched. I've never seen any of the earlier, but even Ed Koch.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Love Judge Millian.

• 25:24Speaker 04

  Oh, see, I was a Wapner guy.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Oh, were you? Did you watch the Ed Koch one too? Because like, former New York City mayor.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  I think I was off the show by the time Koch came in.

• 25:34Speaker 03

  So like, it's had multiple hosts, but the only one that I know, the only People's Court host to me is Judge Marilyn Millian. She was the longest running host from 2001 to 2023. And when I say that I watch this show, I mean, I watch it daily, like every day. It is on in the background. If I were in a dentist's office, it would just be playing the whole time. But instead, I'm at home and I'm doing laundry or I'm making myself dinner or food or whatever. It's on in the background. This is a cheesy, cheesy show. So the basic concept of this show, if you've ever watched any court show, it's similar to others of that era. People have their disputes. It's low stakes, civil disputes, and they come

• 26:15Speaker 03

  to be on the show, air out their grievances, try and win their case, or, you know, not have to pay whatever the plaintiff thinks they owes. In the theme song of this show, they lay it all out. Like, basically, the reason why you go on it is because the show is going to pay whatever the settlement is. So that's kind of the benefit. That's why people would necessarily go on the show to humiliate themselves possibly, or like not come off in the best light. Look, they're all kind of cheesy, but People's Court really leans into the cheese. There is the theme song.

• 26:44Speaker 06

  This is the plaintiff, Annabella Basile. She says she hired the defendant to do some construction.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  And then you have the announcer, as the people are coming into the court, the plaintiff and the defendant are like, this is the plaintiff, Susie Q. She's upset because her landlord hasn't given back her security deposit. It's like, it's so ridiculous. And then you have your cast of characters. For a lot of the show during Millian's reign, Doug Llewellyn, who is a court reporter, he's kind of like the one who's always waiting for, after the case is done, he's waiting in the hallway for the plaintiffs and the defendants to come out. And he is so

• 27:27Speaker 04

  He was there in the Wapner era too.

• 27:29Speaker 03

  Yes, he was there for a very long time. And he has this way of being both pleasant and nice, but also shady as hell. Like, he'll tell like the litigants to their face, like, you're not very smart, are you? You made a dumb decision. You might be going to jail.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Or be like, did you really think that was gonna work?

• 27:48Speaker 03

  I know. Like, love it, love it. And then you have outside, and not actually outside of where they record it, but like you have Harvey Levin.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  Harvey Levin.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:58Speaker 03

  Yes. Co-host and legal reporter who stands outside somewhere. It looks like LA, but I'm not exactly sure where he is. But he is outside in the middle of the cases. He'll be talking to like a group of random people. This is the People's Court part. This is, the people get to comment. And then he tends to ask leading questions or not very good. This is not a place where you go for deep thoughts or deep,

• 28:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 28:22Speaker 03

  deep criticisms of the legal system. This is where you, you just ask someone, so is it all right for a man to pay for everything on the first date? That's what happens here. This is not very deep. And Harvey Levin also, I didn't realize this for many years, but he is also the founder of TMZ. So

• 28:37Speaker 04

  Yes, he is.

• 28:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is where we are. And then of course, there's Douglas McIntosh, the court officer, the bailiff, who is always standing next to Judge Millian while she's overseeing the cases. And he doesn't say much often, but he, like, sometimes they'll have a little back and forth. Yeah, this show, it's so low stakes, unlike Dateline. Like, people aren't being murdered.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 28:59Speaker 03

  Now, occasionally, there will get a very hefty case. And I think what separates Millian from someone like Judge Judy is that she's a very like empathetic judge, not always.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Yes, I think that's right.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  Right? But like, she will sometimes go on a spiel about, you know, someone like a mother and daughter who are beefing about money and be like, you need to repair this relationship, like really, really like heavy stuff. But then she has her catchphrases. Linda, I know you know some of these catchphrases, her maxims.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Yep. Absolutely.

• 29:27Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  I'm itching over here and you're scratching me over there.

• 29:30Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Which is what she says, if I ask you a question and you tell me something else, that's not an answer to the question that I asked you.

• 29:35Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  And she says some of these in Spanish.

• 29:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  And she has one where she says, if you order the chocolate, you have to pay for the chocolate.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  That's another good one.

• 29:43Speaker 03

  Yes, the cheap comes out expensive.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  The cheap comes out expensive.

• 29:46Speaker 07

  Sometimes, though, lo barato sale caro. The cheap comes out expensive.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, she does. She has her little sayings, all of which I think are accurate.

• 29:53Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 29:55Speaker 03

  And I have a theory, just like Glenn had a theory about Duke Fox musicals. I have a theory about People's Court and, you know, daytime television more broadly, which is that I don't think without daytime TV, we would have social media.

• 30:08Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 30:08Speaker 03

  And influencers that we do today. Because what is it about this show that makes me want to have on, even if it's just in the background, even if I'm not paying fully attention, why am I watching people debate about used car sales, putting a phone line in the man you're dating, you've been dating for a month, like putting a phone line in your name for him because he has bad credit? Dog bites, bawlings, injuries, landlord tenant disputes.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Never put anybody on your phone plan. That is the main thing I've taken away from watching People's Court for many years. Never put anyone on your phone plan. And honestly, despite the fact that everything that you're saying about the low stakes is true, the one way in which I would defend the People's Court as actually quite interesting, and I used to feel the same way about Judge Judy, but she's very mean and I don't watch her anymore. But these shows are one of the only places that you can watch American television that talks about how the economy works for people who don't have very much money.

• 31:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Things like paying for things under the table, paying cash to people for things and then not being able to sort of prove what happened.

• 31:15Speaker 03

  Take the nearest roll of toilet paper and a crayon. If you don't have a receipt, that's what you do.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  That's right. Get a receipt anytime you have anybody money.

• 31:22Speaker 08

  Grab the nearest roll of toilet paper and a crayon and write down a receipt. It's not, I couldn't get a receipt, this guy, could you believe him? You don't let go of money without a receipt.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  But again, putting people on your phone plan.

• 31:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Letting somebody register a car in your name because blah, blah, blah, whatever.

• 31:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Paying for something for somebody's kid because they don't have the money and then not being able to get the money. But I mean, it is one of the few places I feel like you can turn on the TV and like, yes, this is how money is for a lot of people who don't have very much money.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  And these are some of the reasons why being poor is expensive, is that it causes you to have to find all these workarounds to try to make your daily life possible.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  And I do believe that there is some value.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  To seeing how that plays out for people.

• 32:14Speaker 03

  I think that's such a great point. And I will say, watching old episodes, I watch the show even though it's not on anymore. They do upload new cases every day or almost every day on YouTube on the official show channel. So watching some of these cases that go back 10, 15 years, not all of it has aged necessarily well.

• 32:32Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 32:33Speaker 03

  Milian has her biases. You, you pick up on them if you've watched this enough. And sometimes she's.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  She doesn't like pit bulls.

• 32:39Speaker 03

  Or at least she doesn't like pit bull owners because they tend to be the ones who show up in her court. But also there's a lot of people who are on section eight. And so it's tricky and you see it in the same way as like on, you know, Judge Judy or even Judge Mathis, there can be some bias there or like not an understanding of like why people might choose if they're trying to buy a used car, not to have a mechanic check it out first, because then that's more money on the pot. Like, it makes me more empathetic and more sympathetic to understanding what it means to not have a lot of money. And I agree that this is just the better version of that than some of those other shows.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  She's way less hostile.

• 33:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Toward people, for example, who have received some sort of public assistance.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Than Judge Judy, who I often feel acts like everybody who is receiving any kind of benefits is a scammer.

• 33:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Of some sort.

• 33:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  And like tells people, go collect cans. And it's like, that is not a solution.

• 33:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  But you don't get quite that level of that from Milian, which is one of the reasons I like her.

• 33:39Speaker 04

  Two other quick things about People's Court. One, in the eighties, this show was Price is Right methadone.

• 33:47Speaker 04

  I often found myself sick because I wanted to stay home and watch game shows. And this show for me at that time in my life was much better than soap operas. The other thing about this show, particularly in the Wapner era, is this show was a rich vein of sitcom plots.

• 34:02Speaker 03

  Oh, yes, it was. Judge Mathis has definitely been on at least one or two black sitcoms at some point. So like, yes, there's definitely, again, this is basic. We're talking about pumpkin-sized lattes.

• 34:12Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 34:12Speaker 03

  And as, as our showrunner Jessica Reedy told me when I was just trying to figure out what to do, she was like, I consider this basic because, I hope she doesn't mind me, I consider this basic because if it's playing in the background at like the dentist office or.

• 34:26Speaker 04

  Totally, your mechanic.

• 34:27Speaker 03

  Or the mechanic, like, that's basic. And I'm like, you know what? I'm basic. It's okay.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  I hear you. I hear you. So that is The People's Court, which Ayesha watches on the official YouTube channel, which now I know about. All right.

• 34:44Speaker 03

  Go ham, Linda, go ham.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  I will, I will. That brings us to the end of our show. Aisha Harris, Stephen Thompson, Glen Weldon, thank you so much for being here. We are all basic together.

• 34:55Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 34:56Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 34:56Speaker 03

  I'm right.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  This episode was produced by Lennon Sherburne, Liz Metzger, and Mike Katsev, and edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. Since you're here and since we're glad you're here, if you're not already following the show, why not do that right now? I'm Linda Holmes and we will see you all next time.

• 35:19Speaker 05

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Google Workspace with Gemini, one subscription that does it all. Personalized AI and premium business versions of Gmail, Google Docs, Drive, and more. Try it free for 14 days at g o o dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.

• 35:42Speaker 09

  I'm Rich Mar, host of a new podcast called RVA's Got Issues, because we've all got issues, right?

• 35:49Speaker 10

  For sure. Oh, definitely. Everybody has issues. What are you talking about?

• 35:52Speaker 09

  And do you think Richmond's got issues?

• 35:54Speaker 10

  I think every city, every county, every town has issues.

• 35:57Speaker 09

  Listen to RVA's Got Issues from VPM, part of the NPR network.