Pod Insights Pop Culture Happy Hour Michael and What's Making Us Happy About this episode Michael Jackson was one of the biggest pop stars on the planet, so it’s only natural that he’s the subject of a glossy, big-budget biopic. In Michael, the singer’s real-life nephew Jaafar Jackson portrays him in his rise to fame. The film leans heavily on the depiction of live performances, but steers entirely clear of the controversies that dogged the singer.
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0:17 Stephen Thompson? A warning, this episode contains mentions of sexual abuse.
0:26 Stephen Thompson? Michael Jackson was one of the biggest pop stars on the planet, so it's only natural that he's the subject of a glossy, big-budget biopic. "Michael" dramatizes the singer's rise in the 60s, up through a performance of "Bad" in the late 80s. The film leans heavily on the depiction of live performances led by Jaafar Jackson, who is Michael's real-life nephew, but it steers entirely clear of the controversies that dogged the singer. I'm Stephen Thompson. Today, we are talking about "Michael" on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. Joining me today is my co-host, Aisha Harris. Hey, Ayesha.
1:02 Aisha Harris? Ah, hee, hee, hee. Hello, Stephen.
1:06 Stephen Thompson? Shimon. Also with us, journalist and host of the movie review podcast Seated, Travell Anderson. Hey, Travell.
1:13 Speaker 03 I'm just gonna give y'all a regular old hello, if that's okay.
1:18 Stephen Thompson? Travell, you were the one I most wanted to hear saying, no offense to Ayesha, who is an excellent, excellent singer.
1:23 Aisha Harris? Thank you.
1:26 Stephen Thompson? All right, so the new movie biopic of Michael Jackson follows a lot of traditional biopic beats. Young Michael Jackson, played by Giuliano Valdi, is growing up in Gary, Indiana, with his many brothers and sisters. Their parents are Overbearing Joseph, played by Coleman Domingo, and Catherine, played by Neil Long. And, look, we all know where the Michael Jackson story goes from there. The Jackson Five get huge, Michael is the breakout star, he goes solo, he becomes the biggest pop star in the world upon the release of Thriller in 1982. There are no spoilers for this movie because it shows you the stuff everyone has seen: iconic performances, the making of videos for Thriller and Beat It, Bubbles the Chimp, and the mishap during
2:10 Stephen Thompson? A commercial shoot in which Michael Jackson's hair caught fire. The film itself has the buy-in and support of most of Michael Jackson's surviving family, many of whom are listed as executive producers. And we should note that the film does not address the multiple sexual abuse allegations against Michael Jackson. Matt Bellany of Puck News reported that a version of the screenplay included the 1993 child sex abuse lawsuit against Jackson. Bellany's report said the intention was to paint the family of the accuser as money hungry and Jackson as innocent. Bellany also reported that the movie's production was delayed by rewrites after the creators learned they were legally prohibited from dramatizing the accusers. When asked about rewrites and reshoots in an interview with Australian television,
2:56 Stephen Thompson? producer Graham King said parts of the film had to be reshot because of what he termed a legal issue. Variety has also reported on this story. NPR has not independently confirmed those reports. Michael was directed by Antoine Fuqua. He directed Training Day and the Equalizer movies. It's in theaters now. Trayvall, I'm gonna start with you. What did you think of Michael?
3:17 Speaker 03 You know, fine. That's what I thought.
3:21 Stephen Thompson? And that's Pop Culture Happy Hour. We'll see you next time.
3:26 Speaker 03 I think my main question going into this movie was like, did we need it? Do we need another Jackson, Michael Jackson, like, story? I'm sure you all saw American Dream, the television version.
3:40 Aisha Harris? Of course, of course. Too many times.
3:43 Speaker 03 And I think my takeaway response to that is, no, we didn't need this. But the movie is fine. It's not a bad movie. It very much gives like jukebox musical to me in terms of just like flashing to these interesting or pivotal moments of the earlier part of his career. It did not do anything new for me. But it was a good time overall. I mean, you know.
4:11 Stephen Thompson? Catchy songs.
4:12 Speaker 03 Yeah.
4:15 Stephen Thompson? How about you, Aisha?
4:16 Aisha Harris? Yeah, I mean, look, this is a very seductive movie. And I think it's because we love nostalgia. And I'm using the royal we, I'm using the society, this country. We all love nostalgia. So much of this movie hinges on hearing those songs. This movie also, it's very clearly for the diehard diehards, because there are some deep cuts that you hear in here that I was not expecting to hear. Like, the instrumentals for this song off of Michael Jackson's solo album, Ben. We got a good thing going. Like, I was like, oh, we're playing this in the background. Okay, sure. Uh, half the audience is gonna know this song, but that's fine. This is such a fan service-y movie.
4:59 Aisha Harris? I do think that it's interesting to, you know, watch this movie. And as someone who was a diehard fan of Michael Jackson, like, he is probably my biggest pop culture obsession I've ever had. Like, starting at the age of, like, basically sentience up until, you know, when he died, I was bawling, I was crying, it was very upsetting. Knowing more and having seen the documentary Leaving Neverland, which came out a few years ago, which profiled two of his accusers, an adult who are adults now, but who are recounting what they alleged happened to them when they were befriended by him. I have way more complicated feelings. And I think it's very convenient that this movie,
5:42 Aisha Harris? just like other estate-approved, like, narratives, including MJ the Musical, the Broadway show that is currently running and is also touring. I want a more full picture of Michael Jackson if we're gonna keep telling the same story. And as Trayvall said, there's nothing new in this. It might reach new audiences, younger audiences, that perhaps haven't seen the Jacksons in American Dream. But I would still say, like, if we're gonna tell this story, go and watch that instead, because I think the performances are better. And it's at least a little bit more about the family. And I think that's where we're missing. Like, the family is, they're a complicated people. They're a messy family. So those are my initial thoughts on this movie.
6:24 Aisha Harris? Like, didn't need to exist, but it's still seductive, and I can understand why.
6:29 Stephen Thompson? Yeah, I mean, I occasionally, I think seductive is a good word for it. I definitely was able to kind of tap into some of the depictions of these live performances. Jaafar Jackson certainly gives a deeply committed performance and a very physical performance.
6:44 Stephen Thompson? But the entire time I'm watching it, I'm just like, I feel like I'm watching a John Wilkes Booth biopic about his career as an actor that ends in 1858.
6:58 Stephen Thompson? Why am I watching this? And, and again, it is not a spoiler to say that this film ends with a performance of Bad in like 87 or 88. And then there's a tag that comes up and it says, his story continues.
7:10 Aisha Harris? Is that a threat? It sounds like a threat.
7:12 Stephen Thompson? Which implies that there is a sequel. And as we've established, there are all these things that they're clearly not authorized to depict on screen, that they clearly don't want to depict on screen. So is a sequel to this film going to teach us all about the making of Bad and Dangerous? I do understand why it exists.
7:31 Aisha Harris? Yeah.
7:31 Stephen Thompson? I suspect it will make an extraordinary amount of money.
7:34 Aisha Harris? Yes.
7:34 Stephen Thompson? It functions as a jukebox musical, I think competently enough. I think as a biopic, it's junk. It is hitting every boilerplate biopic beat imaginable. I mean, obviously, the framework of many biopics is like the star had overbearing parents who didn't support them adequately. This person's special. I've never heard a voice like this. Even within those performances, which I think is where the movie works best, oh, the way the performances are shot, it is like 35% screaming fans.
8:08 Aisha Harris? Yeah.
8:09 Stephen Thompson? And so we're getting a lot of the movie, for some reason, feeling the need to tell us that he was very popular. You know, I've lived through this time. I did know that.
8:18 Aisha Harris? The children, though, the children are out here on the internet, talking about how they saw Sabrina Carpenter at Coachella and then saying like, who's Madonna? So like, maybe there are audiences who like have no idea and.
8:30 Stephen Thompson? Aisha, you just willed a Madonna biopic into the marketplace. Thanks a lot.
8:35 Aisha Harris? Well, can we talk, though, about like the way that this kind of frames the whole daddy issues story? Because the one sort of new shade to this that I did recognize in this movie is the fact that. Because there isn't really a lot of narrative here, like it's very flimsy. There's not a lot to do, especially when you're gonna end it in 1988 or at the end of the 80s, whenever it ends. They really hone in on Joseph is the villain. And he has always been a polarizing figure. If you watch interviews with the families that they've given over the years, including when Michael was still alive, there is so much, let's be real, very true to the way a lot of people think about patriarchy and men in the world.
9:18 Aisha Harris? There's a lot of, he hit us and he did these things and he was verbally, they won't even call it abuse, he was verbally antagonistic or whatever, but we wouldn't be where we were today if it wasn't for him. And it's like, he kept us off the streets and blah, blah, blah, blah. There's not really any of that in this movie, which I find really interesting. I mean, what we do see is Joe hitting Michael with a belt when he's a kid, for example, and some verbal abuse. But I have to wonder, is this because Joe Jackson is now dead? Like, when American Dream came out, that was in 92, the mini-series, and he was still very much alive. And so that movie definitely was very much, like, there's entire scenes where Angela Bassett
9:59 Aisha Harris? playing Catherine Jackson is telling Michael, like, "He may have been really hard on you, but he also made you." And, you know, and her, like, very Angela Bassett voice, it's like butter. I noticed that, but I'm curious about the way they frame that and also the way they frame Catherine Jackson here, because it does seem to, like, both play into very familiar narratives that the Jackson family has pushed, but also maybe because Joseph is gone, it's a little less, like, kind to him.
10:25 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think that's part of it. I mean, I don't know, I felt like they were a little too kind to him, based on what we know.
10:31 Aisha Harris? Well, sure, yes.
10:33 Speaker 03 You know what I mean? But it also is their father. And as you already mentioned, just about the entire family is an executive producer on this film.
10:43 Stephen Thompson? Yeah, four of his brothers, his son Prince and Latoya are all listed as executive producers on this movie. Basically, everybody but Janet.
10:52 Speaker 03 Everyone except Janet.
10:53 Aisha Harris? Did you know that they only had one sister and it was Latoya?
10:56 Stephen Thompson? I was gonna say, this is also some Rebe erasure.
11:00 Aisha Harris? Rebe erasure. Although she's kind of always been on the outside, but.
11:04 Stephen Thompson? I don't know, Centipede was a jam, go ahead.
11:07 Speaker 03 Well, I just think the, to be quite honest, the thing with the Joe Jackson character played by Coleman Domingo that really stuck with me is that, I don't know, the prosthetics were distracting for me. He looked like a live action Scar.
11:20 Aisha Harris? He did have very light eyes in some photos, it looked like, yeah.
11:23 Speaker 03 Yeah. I don't know. It was a little distracting for me, so much so that the scenes where I guess we're supposed to get more information about, you know, his desire to look out for his family, or as it were, look out for himself, as it came off near the end of the movie. It was just hard for me to lock in in those ways and allow, you know, those characters to explore. I did think Neil Long had some, you know, some shimmers of wondrousness.
11:56 Aisha Harris? Yeah.
11:57 Speaker 03 Um, but ultimately she's underused, I feel like. I feel like the entire mother character is underwritten in this narrative that we see here. I agree with you. I think the performance scenes are really where it seems like a lot of the energy was put for the film.
12:14 Stephen Thompson? Well, and it's kind of where the narrative thrust of the film winds up. I mean, as we've kind of alluded to, like, this film has gone through several different iterations. But it's so interesting in terms of like where it comes to its conclusion and kind of like gives you a big grand ending. The big grand ending, and again, we are not spoiling anything here.
12:32 Speaker 03 No, no.
12:32 Stephen Thompson? The big grand ending is just a big performance of bad.
12:35 Speaker 03 Yeah.
12:35 Stephen Thompson? And it's just like, and that's where his story ends, you know? And at the same time, it did, I think, create the effect. And, you know, I think we all saw it at press screenings that were very crowded and were full of people who were very excited about Michael Jackson. It had the effect, or at least the intended effect, of like, you ultimately walk out of the theater like you have just experienced a concert film, which is very different from the experience of watching a narrative biopic about the very complicated life of this very complicated person. I kind of had that experience of like,
13:10 Stephen Thompson? These are catchy songs. Yeah. But then like you're kind of walking out and you're like, what did I just see? Like, what was this movie?
13:16 Aisha Harris? I'm always just kind of flummoxed by the idea that watching a sort of simulacrum of something you love is as fulfilling, even not even as fulfilling, but like scratches an itch. It never scratches an itch for me because I'm just like, I just want to go and watch live in Bucharest. Like, I'd rather watch that than see this. And Jaafar Jackson, look, he's got his speaking voice down quite well. Like, I was impressed. I, you know, he sounds like Michael Jackson. I had flashbacks to sitting in the theater, watching All Eyes on Me, the god awful Tupac biopic. This movie, Michael, the movie is far and away more entertaining
14:01 Aisha Harris? and better than All Eyes on Me. But I had a similar experience where they cast an actor who looked eerily like, and wasn't even related to Tupac, but like, looked eerily a lot like him, Demetrius Ship Jr. He looked like him, he kind of sounded like him, but then there was nothing really going on behind the eyes. And I got that same sort of dead-eyed thing going on here with Jaafar Jackson, where he looks like him, he sounds like him, but unless his sunglasses are on, I'm not buying that he is actually like feeling these emotions, like especially in the scenes with him and Joe. They kind of play this up for laughs, where like, Michael's trying to establish his independence, but he's like forcing all of his handlers to like go, like, he's like, I don't want to fire my father, you do it
14:45 Aisha Harris? for me. Or like, so he's like studying people and like, the arc of this, again, very flimsy narrative, is that it's about him establishing his independence and finally being able to stand up to him on his own without having to go through, you know, these other people. But even in those moments where he has those sort of like confrontations with Joe, there's just nothing going on there. And I didn't feel it in the way that I wanted to feel it, if that's what's going on, right? So, the audience, I was with, seemed to love it. I know like this is what people, a lot of people want, but I want more. God, everything about this just like, I can hear them counting the coins as this movie comes out and I'm just like, ugh, everything about this feels so icky.
15:29 Speaker 03 Yeah, and that's the unfortunate part. I think one of the things I was hoping for, I'm reminded of the, did either of you see the Aretha Franklin National Geographic Cynthia Erivo series?
15:41 Aisha Harris? Uh.
15:41 Speaker 03 Genius is what it was called.
15:43 Stephen Thompson? I saw a different Aretha biopic.
15:44 Aisha Harris? I think I saw the one with Jennifer.
15:47 Stephen Thompson? Yeah.
15:47 Speaker 03 Everyone did. Everyone saw the movie version with Jennifer Hudson.
15:52 Aisha Harris? Oh, wait, no, no. You know what? I think I might have seen one or two episodes of the Cynthia Erivo one now that I think about it.
15:57 Speaker 03 Okay. The reason why I bring it up is because what I appreciated about that series is they really played up the genius aspect of Aretha Franklin and how her mind worked and put songs together. I think I wanted to see more of that for Michael, right? Like, take us more into his mind. And there were some scenes that I think attempted to do that.
16:24 Stephen Thompson? Tried with kind of post-it notes and stuff.
16:26 Aisha Harris? Yeah, beat it and yeah.
16:27 Speaker 03 Yeah, but it wasn't, it didn't really hit in the ways that I remember the Genius series hitting that conveyed something new to me about this person being a one-of-one talent. And I think that's one of the things that's missing in this film, based on what we all have lived, right? Like, you mentioned scenes with the audience members, you know, falling out, which did happen in real life.
16:53 Aisha Harris? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
16:54 Speaker 03 Right? But it felt like a show to me. It did not feel like someone's life story.
17:01 Aisha Harris? Yeah.
17:01 Stephen Thompson? I said this about the Selena miniseries. I said this about Bohemian Rhapsody. I've said it about so many biopics over the years. The only thing worse than an unauthorized biography is an authorized biography. And this, this is the authorizest biography you will see. All right, well, coming up next, what is making us happy this week?
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18:51 Stephen Thompson? Now it's time for our favorite segment of this week. And every week, what is making us happy this week? Travell Anderson, what's making you happy this week?
18:59 Speaker 03 What is making me happy this week? So I am sure we are all patiently awaiting the release of Devil Wears Prada 2. But over on the TikTok, Vanessa Williams is playing Miranda Priestly in the London musical version of Devil Wears Prada. And so I'm bringing you all your next social media recommendation. You have to follow Vanessa Williams, okay? Our first black Miss America. Maybe you remember her as Wilhelmina Slater in Ugly Baddie, Terry in Soul Food.
19:32 Aisha Harris? Was also in American Dream. She played Suzanne de Pas in American Dream.
19:36 Speaker 03 Yes. Look at that tie in. I didn't even think of that in advance. But she is on TikTok like all of our favorite aunties are, doing these dance challenges. But she's like dressed in her Miranda Priestly getup. And if you have ever wanted to see Vanessa Williams, who has a lovely voice. Okay, one of my favorite roles of hers is Ebony in A Diva's Christmas Carol. Okay, I knew you would know it, Aisha.
20:07 Speaker 03 But she's doing some really simple, you know, TikTok choreography to various songs. But it just is giving me my life. Every time I see it, I'm like, yes, this is actually what I want of my legend. Vanessa Williams. Do a little one-two on the Tikity Talks for, uh, she's doing the Beyonce Partition Drop Dance. It gives me HBCU fashion show or like church fashion show choreography. It just is a really good time. Okay, so what's making me happy? Vanessa Williams. She's at official Vanessa Williams on TikTok.
20:40 Stephen Thompson? Nice. Thank you, Treville Anderson. Aisha Harris, what's making you happy this week, buddy?
20:45 Aisha Harris? Well, my thing is not necessarily as joyful as Treville's. But it is one of the best movies I've seen in a minute. So I hope a lot of people seek it out. So this is the movie Blue Heron by Sophie Rungvari. It is her feature film debut and this is a movie that I saw at the Toronto International Film Festival. And it's sort of loosely based on her personal experience in her life. It's about a Hungarian family that relocates to Vancouver Island. There are three younger kids, including eight-year-old Sasha, who's played by Elul Govan. And then there's an older teenage brother, Jeremy, played by Eric Bedos.
21:24 Aisha Harris? Now Jeremy is, he's a very challenging person to live with and love. And he's very troubled and it's just a really moving story that I think a lot of people might be able to relate to of having a family member or a loved one who you love, but everything around them is just like. This ball of negative energy and what that does to the family and what that does to the unit. There's comparisons been made that have been made to after son. I think those are valid comparisons, but it is also very much its own thing. Yeah, I just, I think people should definitely go and seek this out. So that is Blue Heron, directed by Sophie Rungvari, and it's in theaters in New York and LA now and will be rolling out into more theaters as the weeks go on.
22:09 Stephen Thompson? Wonderful. Thank you, Aisha Harris. So the movie Michael has a scene in which a record executive played by Mike Myers browbeats MTV into playing Michael Jackson's videos.
22:23 Aisha Harris? Wait, that was Mike Myers?
22:25 Stephen Thompson? That was Mike Myers.
22:26 Aisha Harris? What? I did not even recognize him. Okay.
22:29 Stephen Thompson? Playing a variation on the same character he played in Bohemian Rhapsody with which this film shares a producer.
22:36 Aisha Harris? Okay.
22:36 Stephen Thompson? Didn't even bother getting into all that.
22:38 Aisha Harris? Yeah.
22:38 Stephen Thompson? But that scene reminded me of an actually wonderful project that is just pure weaponized MTV nostalgia. MTV Rewind is an independent website slash app that uses the YouTube archive to recreate what it was like to watch music videos on MTV.
22:58 Aisha Harris? Oh, man.
22:59 Stephen Thompson? You get the very first broadcast with the very first MTV VJs. You get the very first video aired on MTV back on August 1st, 1981, my ninth birthday. And I am here to tell you, there is never a wrong time to hear Video Killed the Radio Star by The Buggles.
23:37 Aisha Harris? It's a good song.
23:37 Stephen Thompson? It's such a good song. It's really poignant.
23:39 Aisha Harris? Yeah.
23:40 Stephen Thompson? The MTV Rewind archive contains more than 100,000 videos, which is, for me, so refreshing when you've been fed a diet of retro radio that is always playing you the same, like, dozen songs. There was so much more to the 80s than Summer of 69 and Don't Stop Believin'. Believe me, the 80s were a terrible decade, but there was so much more good music than people play. Just as there's so much more to the 90s than Smells Like Teen Spirit and You Oughta Know. So that is MTV Rewind. You can find it at wantmymtv.vercel.app. And that is what is making me happy this week. That brings us to the end of our show. Trey Vel Anderson, Aisha Harris, thanks so much for being here.
24:25 Speaker 03 Thank you, Stephen.
24:26 Aisha Harris? Thank you, Stephen.
24:28 Stephen Thompson? This episode was produced by Hausse Fathama, Liz Metzger, and Mike Katzif, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello, Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Stephen Thompson, and we will see you all next week.
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