Watch This: Twinless

Dylan O’Brien and James Sweeney star as unlikely friends in the new movie Twinless. They meet in a support group for people who have lost their twin and form an interesting bond, but there’s a lot they don’t know about each other. Directed and written by Sweeney, the film has a wry sensibility, great chemistry, and dares to take some dark turns you probably won’t see coming. Follow Pop Culture Happy Hour on Letterboxd at https://letterboxd.com/nprpopculture/letterboxd.com/nprpopculture http://letterboxd.com/nprpopculture To access bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening for Pop Culture Happy Hour, subscribe to Pop Culture Happy Hour+ at plus.npr.org/happy. http://plus.npr.org/happy See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:45Aisha Harris?

  "Twinless" is about an unlikely duo, a personable bro who's not the brightest tool in the shed, and a prickly, often condescending gay man. When they meet in a support group for people who have lost their twin, a very interesting bond is formed.

• 0:59Speaker 02

  The movie's got a wry sensibility, great chemistry, and it dares to take some dark turns you probably won't see coming. I'm Glen Weldon.

• 1:06Aisha Harris?

  And I'm Aisha Harris. And today, we're talking about "Twinless" on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

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• 1:48Speaker 00

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• 2:20Aisha Harris?

  Joining us today is one of the hosts of NPR's Code Switch podcast, Jean Demby. Hey, Jean, welcome back. What's good, y'all?

• 2:26Speaker 04

  My God, so glad to be here.

• 2:27Aisha Harris?

  Great to have you. Also, I'm not sure if listeners know, but you yourself are a twin.

• 2:31Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. I am a twin, but not the kind of twin in this movie.

• 2:34Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, well, yes, but I'm very excited to hear your thoughts on that. But first, you know, "Twinless" is written, directed by and stars James Sweeney as Dennis, a moody loner whose twin brother has passed. He connects with Roman, a doltish but vulnerable guy who's also lost his twin brother. Roman's played by Dylan O'Brien. Now, despite having little in common besides a deceased sibling, they grow close and lend one another some emotional support in dealing with their grief. But, and this is a pretty big but, there's a lot they don't know about each other. And that's all I'm gonna say about that for now. "Twinless" is in theaters now. Gene, I'm gonna start with you. Give it to us. How do we feel about this movie?

• 3:15Speaker 04

  I love this movie, and it was so stressful to watch. I watched it, and then my wife, who had been sleeping, like, woke up, and she was like, "Hey, I want to watch this with you." And I was like, "Oh, I will absolutely watch this again with you right now." And I watched it again with her and saw her sink into the couch like, "Oh, my God, like, watch this stress." And I was like, "I know, you have to experience this too."

• 3:34Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 3:34Speaker 04

  I've never seen James Sweeney, any of his work before. Like, whatever he does henceforth, I'm all on board with that. This movie is like, really intense, and it's both like a small character movie, but also like, it's so intense. I was like, "Oh, this is gonna turn into like, a thriller, or like, a unnerving twist to happen." Because there are a lot of unnerving twists, but I thought like, somebody was, there was gonna be a blood jet at some point.

• 3:55Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  And so the whole time you're watching the movie, like, the coil is sort of wrapping tighter and tighter. And yet, and this is so wild about it, it's like legitimately laugh-out-loud funny, right? Like, the guy who plays Roman and Rocky, his twin, I mean this in the best way. I mean, like, no shade, he's very good at playing an idiot.

• 4:14Aisha Harris?

  Yes, no, that's so true, yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  So I've been like, dying to chop it up with somebody, especially y'all, about this, just because it's a movie that like, invites so much discussion.

• 4:23Aisha Harris?

  Yes, I think it's important to stress that as stressful as this movie is, it is also comedy. So I'm glad you, you hinted at that, Gene. But Glenn, yes, tell me, how are we feeling about this?

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm so glad that Gene is on. On the panel today because I think A because I miss you.

• 4:39Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you. Likewise, likewise.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  B because I think between the two of us, I think we got this movie covered. Gene is a twin.

• 4:45Aisha Harris?

  Yes.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  I'm a gay man who spent most of my early twenties hurling myself at straight men who tended to say to me at some point, I just don't think about you like that, bro. So I think we got it covered. I love this film on its own and especially as the second film from James Sweeney. I saw his first film, which is called Straight Up a while back. And I remember thinking, this is a great first film, but I cannot wait to see his next one because he also wrote and directed Straight Up. He also starred in it. He played a gay man who started to question his identity because he found himself drawn romantically to a woman. It was funny. It was sweet, but not too sweet, which is important to me. It was also poking at some ideas that don't get explored in a sympathetic way about identity. The only thing I noticed about that first film is that you could hear the screenplay, if that makes sense.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Like, the dialogue was very witty and very crisp, but the characters sometimes came off as mouthpieces. The rhythms were just a bit too arch, a little too theater, a little too sitcom-y, a little too, like, set up punchline. He has settled in with this movie. He's created characters who say funny things. He has not come up with funny things and then created characters to say them. These are very natural rhythms. These characters are given room to deepen and complicate. And that's most, most seen in the character of Marcy, who becomes Roman's girlfriend.

• 5:59Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  She's played by Ashling Franciosi, and she is a broad comic character when we first meet her. So it's clear we're seeing her through the James Sweeney character's eyes, Dennis's eyes. But the script and the actor allow her to grow and deepen and find other registers to play. And she becomes a very important part of the movie. This is a very enjoyable film.

• 6:18Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, you've just convinced me to go back and watch Straight Up.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 6:22Aisha Harris?

  I also really love this movie. And while I am neither a gay man nor a twin, I absolutely jibe with James Sweeney's whole energy and vibe and his comedic sensibilities. Like Glenn, that point you made about it, like him being able to tap into a sweetness that is never too sweet is absolutely true here. Because, you know, his character Dennis in this film, you know, he- Is kind of a condescending, like, I think I'm better than you, sort of. He has that vibe, but he softens over time through his relationship with Roman. And being able to play an idiot, as Dylan O'Brien does, it's like playing drunk, right? Like, it's hard to do.

• 7:04Aisha Harris?

  And so when you can do it well, oh my goodness, it works so well.

• 7:09Speaker 05

  Hey, how do you know Flemens are right?

• 7:11Speaker 06

  Uh, it's yellow. Unripe Flemens are green.

• 7:14Speaker 05

  So why do they got so many unripe ones out?

• 7:17Speaker 06

  Those are lions.

• 7:18Aisha Harris?

  He is a quote-unquote adulter an idiot, but he also, like, is aware that he is not very smart. There's such a great dynamic between the two of these characters because at one point he's like, look, I know that I'm not very smart, but like, please treat me like a human being.

• 7:32Speaker 05

  Can you not laugh at me? I know I'm not like the brightest tool in the shed, but I don't appreciate it.

• 7:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, of course, I'm sorry.

• 7:41Speaker 05

  You know, if I get something wrong, tell me, because then I can know better.

• 7:47Speaker 06

  Would now be a good time to point out, I think you meant to say sharpest tool in the shed?

• 7:50Speaker 04

  I love that scene.

• 7:51Aisha Harris?

  That, like, very fine line between being kind of dumb, but also his ability to be vulnerable in a way that Dennis can't. It's so rare to see that.

• 8:01Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 8:02Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, this is, this is just a fun movie. But I also feel as though we can't really talk about this movie beyond surface level without getting into... There's a pretty big twist, I will say that, that comes early on in the movie. And so we're gonna get into that, we're gonna get into some major spoilers. So just giving you a warning. Now, here's the gist. Dennis is not, in fact, a twin, it is revealed. Even worse, oh god, this is where I started really sinking into my seat while watching this. Even worse, he's indirectly responsible for the death of Roman's twin Rocky. Dennis and Rocky had a one-night stand, and Dennis became upset when Rocky didn't follow up with him afterward. Honestly, relatable, I've been there.

• 8:47Aisha Harris?

  He angrily confronts Rocky on the street, and then Rocky was struck and killed by a car because he stepped off the sidewalk without looking both ways. And now Dennis is maybe, I guess, trying to absolve his guilt by befriending Roman. And also it's worth noting that Roman is in town. He's there because he's helping to settle up Rocky's loose ends. He never had the opportunity to know Rocky's like real life. So he has no idea that Dennis is who he is. Wow. And this is revealed like 20 minutes in. I could see a movie where you don't find this out until the third act. And it would feel very manipulative. That's not what happens here. Is that the key or is that the secret sauce to this working?

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Well, see, as soon as that revelation happens, the movie changes. The movie becomes a thriller, but kind of an emotional thriller. Right? It becomes a ticking time bomb because there's narrative suspense all of a sudden because we know the truth is going to come out. We've seen movies before and the movie's job at that point is to raise the stakes and show us just how close these two men are becoming. Show us, make us feel what we know is going to be lost. And I think it does that really smartly by letting Marcy become a real sympathetic, rounded character. I think that the fact that she's the vector by which this friendship lives or dies is a really smart thing that this movie does.

• 10:02Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  Because Marcy has like a sort of a longitudinal relationship with Dennis, right? She's known him for a long time. And so she's starting to put together like, hey, you don't have a twin brother. Like she starts to like put the pieces together. The scene in which Rocky is killed. My wife, when we watch movies together, she yells, like she yells when exciting, dramatic things happen. And so because I had just seen it, like literally just before she sat down to watch it, I like looked at her. I was like, here we go. Here comes, here it goes. And she's, she yells so loud. It's like, oh, my God, our baby's asleep, please.

• 10:34Speaker 04

  Once it's revealed that Dennis has this relationship with Rocky and he was like, you know, a little pressed, right? Like after their one night stand, he was sort of like, you could see there's this really funny moment. He's like trying to like, he's asking people who are sort of disinterested, like, should I reach out to Rocky? And like, he's obviously fishing for someone to tell him the thing that he wants to hear, which is like, yes.

• 10:53Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 10:54Speaker 04

  Oh, man. My wife kept saying, this dude loves to fly close to the sun. Like Dennis keeps, the closer he gets to Roman, the more he becomes kind of ensconced in parts of Rocky's world.

• 11:05Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  It's just looming over the last, what, like hour and 20 minutes of the movie? And their friendship is so, it's like legitimately beautiful to watch, right? Like, they look out for each other. They seem to really enjoy each other's company. It's like very unfussy companionship, right? They like, they are like naturally in sync, even though, you know, and I think it's like one of the things in the movies, like they, you would not necessarily assume that these two people would be friends. And I think, I don't want to ruin too much, but like they sort of question like, will we be friends had we?

• 11:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 11:34Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 11:35Speaker 04

  Had the universe aligned a different way. And it's like, oh, it's just so heartbreaking.

• 11:37Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:39Aisha Harris?

  What I also find interesting about this is that like Dennis is clearly unhinged in every way possible. And there's a movie here where it becomes like any other obsession movie and someone gets murdered, or the very least, there's like a big showdown or something like that. And what I find interesting is that like Dennis is not necessarily interested in Roman sexually, or at least I don't get that sense. It's more like he's, both has a sense of guilt. Yes, he's attracted to him because he looks.

• 12:10Speaker 04

  He looks exactly like this dude he was like, bachelor with you.

• 12:13Aisha Harris?

  And we also learn, interestingly, that he has this like weird thing about twins. Like he like wants to be a twin and he, there's a great, great reference to It Takes Two, the, the classic Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen movie. But I found it so interesting because you could also see it going in that direction of like this homoerotic tension, but it never really gets there. And I, I think all the ways it kind of avoids that and focuses in on, on this idea of these two very different people managing to be friends is what is so fascinating. Like all the turns that you can imagine this taking and how it subverts those in every way, which I think is what makes this so great.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. We mentioned Dylan O'Brien playing Roman as, you know, kind of a adult, and he does well. And he does it by saying something like, I'm not the brightest tool in the shed. So folks, if you heard that in Aisha's intro when you were, you had your emails already, no, don't. That's from the movie. It's a line from the movie.

• 13:07Aisha Harris?

  Thank you, guys.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  So settle down.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  But he also briefly plays the dead twin Rocky in flashbacks. And I gotta say, the first time we meet Rocky, I, a gay man who's seen gay characters played by straight actors forever, I was like, oh, he's making choices. Like, does GLAD have a hotline? And do I need to call it? Because that is a lot. At one point, we see him coming out of his apartment. The first line out of his mouth is drama. And I'm like, can we not? This is a hate crime. But then I remember how often I say drama to my friends, and I will continue to say it. So at that point, I kind of relaxed a bit because, like, let he use without sin, cast the first Sharon Stone. You know what I'm saying? But Rocky turns out to be a very familiar type, a very hot gay who just is completely comfortable in his skin.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  And it's important for us to see him like that and for him to be that so we can then see how comparatively stunted and lost Roman is. How much Rocky's departure, and call it for what it is, abandonment, really, how much that cost him. And I thought that was a really important note for the movie to have.

• 14:09Speaker 04

  The movie's, what doesn't imply, it sort of says outright that like, part of the reason that the two of them, Rocky and Roman, who were apparently incredibly close when they're younger, part of the reason they were estranged was when Rocky came out to Roman. Roman responded horribly. And when his brother basically left, like, clearly, I guess the implication is he went to someplace where he could be safer or more, you know, fine community. Roman felt abandoned, you know, and he sort of carried this guilt, like, I drove away this person who I love more than anybody. Glenn, you were saying that, like, you can see how comparatively stunted Roman is relative to Rocky. But also, like, that's clearly why Dennis was drawn to him, too, like, that Rocky was so comfortable in his own skin, and Dennis is sort of very charming, but like, very, you know, but very dorky. And so, like, you could see why these two people who are, like, searching for both

• 14:54Speaker 04

  companionship and sort of, and searching for kind of confidence would feel like the loss of this person is a secular.

• 14:59Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, yeah. Gene, I don't want to pry, but I am curious about, like, the twin perspective. I would love to hear a little bit more about how that played for you as a each twin.

• 15:09Speaker 04

  Well, I should say, I'm a fraternal close one, so my sister and I, like, there was the gender stuff, you know, so like, obviously, we were really, really close when we were younger. We obviously had a playmate who was the same age, you know, we played with each other's toys, twin years. Sort of stuff that like go in different directions. But like, you know, there is a sense of, and I think this is probably true of all siblings who are close in age, but that sense of like, you know, you live in a microculture of your house that you grew up in, right? And so you have this person who you grow up with the same parent. Like you sometimes we have a sibling and the sibling is far apart enough in age. Like those parents have different sort of like capacities or whatever. But like when you are a twin, you have a person who like very, very instinctually understands what it's like to have the upbringing you had, like in a way that no one else had, right? Like in this movie, you see that Roman has a really testy relationship with his mom,

• 15:54Speaker 04

  who is played by Lauren Graham, Laura Lyle Gilmore. I was very curious about like, what was Rocky's relationship like to this? Like, was it one of those things like, I feel abandoned in part because like you left me to deal with this person who I don't get along with, right? By myself, you know? But also just like this very sweet story that Rocky tells about his brother, about this injury he had when he was young and how his brother didn't want him to go through it alone. And so like basically made it so that he had the same injury. That kind of like you have a built in best friend is like a really, really powerful thing. You just have someone you don't have to explain everything to, you know?

• 16:24Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, yeah. I'd never really thought about that perspective before about having the same parent in the same moments. Cause I grew up in a household where I, there were several years between my sister and I. And then I have two younger sisters who are decades younger than me. And I had like my parents when we didn't have a lot of money and then we have a little bit more money by the time my second sibling came in. So like that is such a real thing. And I love the way Lauren Graham has a small role in this movie. Those moments when she's with Roman on screen just feel so, I can feel it. I can understand it so well. And there's love there, but also there's so much fraughtness there.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  And if you'd seen Straight Up, you would have noticed how many Gilmore Girls jokes there are in that movie. So it's kind of fun. It's great to see Lauren Graham here.

• 17:12Speaker 04

  Easter egg.

• 17:13Aisha Harris?

  I'm sure it was quite the boon for him to get her. He was like, yes, this is my dream.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  I just want to really briefly talk about the ending without revealing the ending. It's perfect. And in a movie like this, it's not about the bomb going off. We know the bomb's gonna go off. We're waiting for it. What's important about a movie like this is what happens after. You have to nail it because that's the thing we don't know how it's gonna do. And I would, this thing, we had five minutes to go. And I thought, how is he gonna land this plane? Because, you know, all of a sudden I realized, oh, we're in the movie's last scene. This is the last beat, the last moment. It has to pay for itself. And it so does in a quiet, perfect way that doesn't feel over determined, that doesn't feel, you know, workshopped, that doesn't feel clever and sweaty. It just feels natural. And I just love that choice that the movie makes at the end there.

• 17:57Speaker 04

  Absolutely, a thousand percent.

• 17:58Aisha Harris?

  Agree, agree.

• 17:59Speaker 04

  You know, and not to be like, to like, gild the lily too much, but like, you know, there's all these thing pieces about sort of like the crisis in male friendships and, I should think like a real thing, but like, this is a movie I would like a lot of like, straight dudes who are sort of alienated.

• 18:12Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  Because it's like such a smart movie about, there's a scene right towards the end that when Roman, he doesn't have anything to do when his girlfriend is otherwise engaged, right?

• 18:21Aisha Harris?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:22Speaker 04

  And just, I guess, thinking about all those, those pieces about like, hey, man, I need my husband, my, my boyfriend, whoever, to like, have someone to talk to that is not me, you know?

• 18:29Aisha Harris?

  Yes.

• 18:29Speaker 04

  Like, um, and it's like a very real thing that I think a lot of dudes will recognize in themselves and a lot of women will like, yeah, like, yes, this is what I'm trying to tell you about. You're gonna go out in the world and have an emotional, intimate community that is not just me doing all that stuff.

• 18:42Aisha Harris?

  Yeah. I mean, I don't have anything to add, except I completely agree with both of you. And I think this movie is very good at just kind of planting little seeds, coming back to them, but not in a like, I'm gonna make sure you know that I'm coming back to it. It's just natural. I hope to see more from James Sweeney and from Dylan O'Brien because again, my goodness, so fantastic. I know he was, you know, if you watched certain shows or movies, you would know him, but this is my first time really digging into him and he is fantastic, so.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  You weren't on the Scorch Trials, huh? You didn't, uh?

• 19:15Aisha Harris?

  Oh, no, sorry. I was not.

• 19:20Aisha Harris?

  Well, we want to know what you think about Twinless. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/pchh and on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/NPRPopCulture. We'll have a link to that in our episode description. That brings us to the end of our show. Jean Demby, Glen Weldon, thanks so much for being here.

• 19:36Speaker 04

  Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you.

• 19:38Aisha Harris?

  And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio, and you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Janey Morris, and Mike Katsev, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello, Come In provides our theme music. And thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all next time.

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