Viktor Radchenko, Founder of Trust Wallet: A Ukraine Immigrant Talks the Future of the Digital Wallet Ecosystem

Viktor Radchenko is the Founder of Trust Wallet. In this conversation, Viktor and Anthony Pompliano discuss Viktor's time growing up in Ukraine, how he immigrated to the U. S., why he initially learned to code software, what drove him to focus on the crypto space, why he sold his company to CZ and Binance, and what Viktor thinks is going to happen in the digital wallet ecosystem moving forward. ----- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworksgroup.io

• 0:01Speaker 00

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to Off the Chain, simply the best podcast in crypto. Let's kick this thing off. Viktor Radchenko is the founder of Trust Wallet, which was recently acquired by Binance. In this conversation, we discuss Viktor's time growing up in Ukraine, how he immigrated to the US, why he initially learned to code software, what drove him to focus on the crypto space, why he sold his company to CZ and Binance, and what Viktor thinks is going to happen in the digital wallet ecosystem moving forward. I really enjoyed this live conversation, and I hope you do as well.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:05Speaker 00

  How the hell did you get here?

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. So I'm usually pretty, you know, kind of a private person. I don't usually show up anywhere, so I usually stay pretty low in general. But, you know, the way I got here probably took me pretty much like 20 years. Yeah, so I was born-

• 1:22Speaker 00

  Real short trip to get here, 20 years.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, 20 years. Yeah, exactly. So I think I'll start kind of with my background. I was born in Ukraine and then maybe around the time when I was like seven or eight, this is when I started to help my parents and I kind of grow and I was helping them with like growing tomatoes. And this is how my kind of life started. And then I started to make more money when I was like 80 years old. I would like grow tomatoes and I would just go to the market and sell them. And this is what I kind of spent my livelihood back in Ukraine with parents. And then when I was like probably like 10, I went to playing like ping pong. I started to do it professionally. I became like state champion. So I used to be like really big in ping pong.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Are you, you're good at ping pong?

• 2:05Speaker 02

  I used to. And then once I turned 14, I started doing parkour and then I injured my leg and the-

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on. First of all, if you were good at ping pong and you're not good anymore and we play and I beat you, can I claim that I beat a former state champion?

• 2:22Speaker 02

  We can try. We can try to beat.

• 2:23Speaker 00

  That means that you're probably gonna beat me. You said that pretty confidently.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty good. As long as I have my paddle, I'm pretty confident.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  Oh, you have like tools, okay.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Exactly. And if you don't have your tools in ping pong, like, it's not gonna work. You know, there is like so many details in ping pong, like the way you play, it's crazy.

• 2:41Speaker 00

  Okay, and then parkour, for those that don't know, explain what it is.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  So I think it's kind of like a style of like moving, you basically, you know how to be athlete, so you know how to do backflips, strongflips, and part of the parkour to basically kind of run on the streets and kind of go through different barriers and then jump from different houses. And so one time I was jumping from the house, like, third floor, and then when I landed, I basically injured my leg and couldn't do anything after that.

• 3:09Speaker 00

  So for people that don't know, parkour is like the videos you've seen where people look like they're in an action movie and they're like running from the cops and they're jumping from roof to roof and flipping and doing all this stuff. You just made it sound very simple. It looks like it's nearly impossible.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is pretty tough and I think there is lots of risk doing it, but at the same time, you know, you're gonna like to take that risk.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  Why did you jump from the third floor? What were you thinking?

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we had lots of different houses where we would just like go through different houses, jump around, and you know, that was kind of fun, you know. I would not explain why.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  Okay, how old were you?

• 3:43Speaker 02

  I was 14 or so.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  Okay, and you hurt your leg?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, and since then, I thought that basically I don't want to do sports as professional anymore, just because it's too dangerous. And then because it took me like six months to just recover because I had this thing on my leg, I couldn't walk for two months and then I started to learn walking again, which was pretty crazy. Yeah, it's not as easy.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  You're a champion at ping pong, then you did parkour and then you're just like, all right, I'm out of this sports game. And what did you do next?

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I was still helping my parents. You know, I would go to school and all summer I would spend on, you know, on the farm with them because we had a house and we had lots of land at home. And, you know, part of business to just sell tomatoes. And so I would basically spend maybe like eight hours helping my parents and then just, you know, have some time with friends, which is pretty like tough. So I had to do lots of time management to be really efficient in that. And so after that, I realized that, you know, I'm injured, can I do much? And so I told my parents to get me a computer. And so I started to kind of spend my time doing stuff on the computer. So most people would start building games and do different sort of stuff. But for me it was different. So I thought that I wanted to break things that out there. So I started to

• 5:01Speaker 02

  play a little bit of games. I learned about how to use an app called ArtMoney where you can fake how much you own in the game. And since then, I was just kind of started to learn how to break things and not to build them. Like, that was my mentality back then. And so

• 5:16Speaker 00

  So were you hacking things?

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Pretty much. So this is when I started doing

• 5:19Speaker 00

  What is called spade a spade?

• 5:21Speaker 02

  I would call it security.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Just because we're in US now.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  So hold on, in the Ukraine, it's hacking, but in the US, it's security?

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Exactly. So

• 5:34Speaker 02

  So the way you would consider, because you're based in Ukraine, no one really cares about that as much. So you could break into different systems and then you would use VPN. No one really know who you are. So you would be really private.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  Got it. And as you're doing this, like, what types of systems are like, you're breaking like government systems, the local bank, or like, were you just doing like some, you know, network on the internet, like a game or something?

• 5:59Speaker 02

  So I could tell you that

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Probably both, but so basically when I started doing, I joined some forums where people would like hang out and they realized that I want to have my own as well because I have that much more knowledge and we had some community around. And so I realized I want to start my own community. And so I started one, you know, we had around 10,000 different people who would mostly be focused on sharing different knowledge in just security itself. And back then there was lots of vulnerabilities in like SQL injections. So when you said about governments, maybe 30% of all the websites were vulnerable and most of it we had access to.

• 6:36Speaker 00

  So 30% of all websites in the world were vulnerable to security breaches?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, mostly in Ukraine and then lots of websites around the globe.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  What is the craziest website or system that you guys broke into that you can talk about?

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Okay, so thank, you know, President's website of Ukraine.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  The president of Ukraine's website? Yeah, he probably wasn't excited about that.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, we didn't do anything that like, I don't think you want to touch that.

• 7:05Speaker 00

  All right, that's fair. So how do you go from hacking and security in Ukraine and the forum to building Trust Wallet?

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. So and then, you know, once I learned a lot about security and then, you know, at some point, maybe two, three years after, I found vulnerability on the bank website. I just messaged them, told them like, here's the problem, here's how you fix it. And then two days later, I got an offer from the bank to work for them.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  Okay, hold on. So you guys are playing around, breaking into all these systems, right? And my last question about that side is, were you doing this from a black hat, white hat, gray hat, situation dependent? Like, what was the intention of doing it?

• 7:48Speaker 02

  So I think for me personally, I didn't really care as much about the money, so I didn't focus on the profit. So for me, it was about exposure and getting to know the people who are working on it.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  It was kind of a game, right? Like, can we get in?

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Pretty much, yeah.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  Okay, so you get into the bank and what, do you remember what the security vulnerability was?

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was so they were using MySQL at the moment. So I found the vulnerability where you can find SQL injection and then find information about different tables. So we weren't able to like do any transfers, but were able to read information from the private tables that wasn't exposed. Yeah.

• 8:21Speaker 00

  Okay, and you hit them up and you're like, hey, by the way, I just broke in like he probably should fix this. Are they mad or they're just literally like, hey, come work here and fix it for us?

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. So because they didn't have that much, you know, security team in the company, they told me just to come over. And that was the biggest bank in Ukraine. So population of Ukraine was 47 million and they had 51 million users.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  So that's pretty big bank.

• 8:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a lot of money at stake.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 8:46Speaker 00

  All right. So you take the job?

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I took the job. I was in university at the moment. So that was my third year. And so this is the year when I basically left Ukraine. So the reason why I left, I got in trouble with the government. So because I had access to the hackers and security people, so they wanted to get access to them. And so I told them no, and I just had to leave.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  So the government basically came to you and said, we know that you know, all these people were going to use you to get to all of them.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Turn over the names or?

• 9:16Speaker 02

  So they want, because you cannot get names because it was a private forum, but we had around 10,000 people where we would kind of share knowledge between other people and we would have different kind of levels of how much information can you share? So, and this is what they wanted. They wanted to have access to their emails, their accounts, and then IP addresses that they used to access it. And then, once you have that, you can kind of start tracking them down. But at the same time, they're usually pretty protected. They use, you know, double VPNs and then it's just, you know, different level of security.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  For sure. And so when they approach you, they ask you to do this, you say, no way. How did you get out?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. So.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  Ukraine strikes me as a place, my girlfriend's from Bulgaria. It strikes me as a place, if you're trying to get out of there and they know you're trying to get out, you're not getting out.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Exactly. So I think I was lucky at the same time. So I was applying for one of the programs to go to US for work and travel. So I think that was like around the same time when I basically decided just to leave the country and never come back. And so initially I went to Alaska and I worked there for like three months on the fisherman factory. So we would like clean and, you know, cut the fish for like 16 hours a day, literally.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  So.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  Did you have to go to Alaska or you wanted to go to Alaska?

• 10:28Speaker 02

  No, initially I was planning to go there just for the program for summer, but it turns out that I had, I started to have this issue. So that was like the best way for me to leave the country.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  Okay. And you get there and you go from hacking the bank website and the president's website to cleaning fish.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  What are you thinking? What's going on?

• 10:45Speaker 02

  That's pretty crazy. I think like when I tell this story, like people don't really believe. But yeah, that was something that happened and it's kind of hard to explain. And then like, once I got to Alaska, I basically spent four months and thought like, okay, I cannot really go back. Like, what are my options? And then the only people I knew in US was my neighbors from Ukraine. So they came here as a religious people back in 2004 or so.

• 11:09Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  So I thought like, oh, that's the only people I know. I'll just go there and we'll see what we can do. So I flew over to Sacramento and then I just told them like, can I just stay at your place? Because I don't really want to go back to my country. It's not secure to me. And so they're like, said definitely. So you can just stay here. And they were pretty religious. So they were part of a Pentecostal religion. So I kind of stayed there. I mean, they told me to go to church. So I kind of spent my time learning.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  Did they indoctrinate you?

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Oh, totally. Like, yeah, I had to like kind of follow some rules that they told me. So I would go to church every Sunday and because they told me to, it was fine. I learned a lot about religion and like thinking behind these people and like, what's their like motivation in life? How do they think? And how do they perceive other people that not religious?

• 11:53Speaker 00

  So you go from cleaning the fish in Alaska, you're in Sacramento now. What are you doing for work?

• 11:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I was illegal basically for about eight months in the country. So this is the time when I also applied for asylum. So the way you apply for asylum, you just write your story, like what happened to you? Why do you think it's scary to go back to your country? Then you just apply and then you have interview after like six weeks or so.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  And I'm assuming it's a pretty good case if you're like, ah, the government's after me. They're like, you can probably stay here.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty much like if you really have fears or you have someone who will like catch you in your country. I mean, there's, you know, they'll help you out.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  What is the process? Is it difficult to go through the asylum process? Like the immigration process, we know is super screwed up in the U.S. And it's just really difficult for people to kind of navigate on their own. Is the asylum process similar in the complexity?

• 12:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think it's too hard. Like for me personally, it was pretty easy. The way it worked, I was, I was writing my story. It's about four pages long. So I would just like write it how everything happened. Then I hired the translator who did like translation from Russian to English. And I just submitted my application. So I didn't require any lawyers or anyone, just did it everything myself. So it's pretty straightforward. There is lots of tutorials on their websites, but most people just get a lawyer who will like help them. But I don't like that, that like talking to lawyers usually. So yeah, they're usually pretty useless in a way because like if you talk to three of them, like they will have different vision on how things should work. And they'll kind of scare you off. So you don't, you know, you don't go to someone else and.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  Well, and if you're telling them, hey, I think that the Ukrainian government's after me, they might even be a little bit more scared to help you.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Maybe that's true too. But there is things that you can do yourself as long as you follow guidelines. Because if you go to the immigration website in U.S., you will see all the guidelines on how things work. And they're like pretty detailed, like, oh, here's a form, here's a field and here's explanation to it. So you can just follow that if you have time. But if you're broke and you sleep on a mattress, you would, you won't hire a lawyer.

• 13:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I don't know why, but I think your life could be a movie. I'm imagining the Ukrainian government chasing you while you're doing parkour and running from house to house.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  All right. So you're in Sacramento, you get the asylum, right? And then what, what do you do for work or what's kind of your next step?

• 14:08Speaker 02

  So before I got asylum, I went to Hackathon and because I knew how to write scripts, but I didn't know back then how to program. And it's actually two different things.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  Explain the difference.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  So the scripts are based on like, you just write a commands, but programming is a little bit different. It requires you to think how to build architecture, not just to tell commands like here's one, two, three. But with writing code, you need to follow like different design patterns. You need to write code that will scale, easy to test. And you wouldn't do that with just scripts. So, and we use also different languages. We would usually use like Perl, which is not used anymore. And a little bit different, I would say. And so I went to this hackathon and I was illegal back then. And then I joined the team and they were doing a game where you would just build an app and you will take the hamburger and you will throw it in the person. So the whole idea was like to take the hamburger, like kind of swipe it and throw it in the person.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  This is post-smartphones, right? So literally on the screen, you're just swiping with your finger?

• 15:08Speaker 02

  2011, yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 00

  Okay. And what do you think? Are you just like Americans are crazy? They're building these dumb games? Are you excited about this?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  That was pretty exciting. At that moment, I didn't really know how much like to program, how to program. I didn't know like some basics. And so without like, oh, let's just join together and build this. So someone designed it, we like wrote some code and, you know, build an app and just kind of submit it for the hackathon. And we won the first place and they just offered to help me with the job. So they said like, oh, here's a job for you. If you can tackle it, like feel free to do it and we'll teach you how to do it. So this is how I started my career, like actually doing programming. So this is when I switched from doing, you know, breaking things into actually building.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Building them. And how much of the experience in breaking things did you see as an advantage in building, right? Because now you knew how to think about the vulnerabilities and the architecture? Or did you not really realize that at first and you were just kind of following whatever you're passionate about?

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I just followed the passion, but at the same time, it helped me to understand how security works on the side of the hacker. So I really know how they think about like what they need and how they use the data afterwards. So I think this is kind of the key when you think about security.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  Got it. Okay. And so now you're like, all right, I'm a programmer. I'm not going to write scripts. I'm going to build things, not break them. What's the first thing you build?

• 16:27Speaker 02

  So first thing, um, so for that company, I remember we started to build apps for dealerships. So it was a simple app and the guys who were selling the app were like super amazing. They would sell this dealership app, which would show like, here's the address of the dealership. Here's the cars that we sell and that's it. And they would sell it for about like $10,000 plus like membership fee of like $5,000 a month, something really crazy. So they did really good upsell.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  Have you ever seen used car dealership commercials in the US? Have you seen these on TV?

• 16:58Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  They're really bad production quality, but they're pretty funny. And so walking in and talking to a lot of these people to get them to buy a mobile app was probably an interesting experience.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally, yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  Did you ever go on the sales pitches?

• 17:08Speaker 02

  No, not really.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  No, you just built the app?

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  And so this is the time when I started learning about trucking. So I think this is my first exposure to being, you know, like entrepreneur in US. And so my friend was a truck driver. And so he told me about trucking, what they do, how they do it. And this is the time when he told me like, oh, here's a problem that I have. Can you solve it for me? And he told me that it's hard to find truck stops where to sleep at night. All the, the Google Maps didn't have really good understanding what a truck stop is. And so finding that specific spot was a hard problem. So what I thought would be really cool to build an app on mobile that will just show you all the truck stops, weight stations, all the places that the truck drivers could sleep at night. And that was a big deal.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  So I'm actually weirdly very familiar with this problem because I invested in a company that does something similar. What was the name of the company?

• 17:56Speaker 02

  So the company I started called Truckapath.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  Truckpath?

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Truckapath.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  Okay. And my understanding is you probably were part of the solution of now people know where the truck stops are. But another issue is when the trucks get there, they don't know where, which loading docks they're supposed to use. They don't know where to park. They don't know which is the entrance versus the exit and kind of the last mile issues. And so there's a bunch of companies that are trying to solve that with, with the mapping. What did you do with the company? Were you selling it to the truckers? Were you selling it to the actual truck stations? What was the point of, of building this?

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the point was to build only for the truck drivers that needed this stop. And the way, so the database was missing as well. Like there's a few apps that were like, okay. But at the same time, there was not a single database that had location, plus reviews and ratings. So what I thought would be cool to just kind of get all the info. So I had to actually get into some private databases of different websites. So I used my skills from the previous. Yeah. So I got all the database. I got like four good databases. I put them all together. I filtered out all the like bullshit and just like had a good database for people to use it and then build the UI which will just show you like all these places. And I made it social so people can leave reviews and think about, you know, just the social features.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Okay. And as you're building that company, what did you end up doing with the company? And kind of then what'd you do next?

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I started just, you know, as a fun project just to help my friends, but it turns out to be a good problem. And then after some time, we started to get more users and then realized that we have like over 10,000 people now. And, you know, what do we do then? And so maybe like year after, we had about 50,000 users and we, the people started to pay subscription for using premium services, which will tell like how to get from New York to Los Angeles. So part of the being a truck driver that you have limit hours, you have at most 14 hours a day, and then you can physically drive only 11. So this means that if you have only 30 minutes to drive, you need to find spot right away. If not, you'll get a ticket for like a couple of thousand dollars. So this is where it was really handy to have an app that will show like, here's the place, here's how many truck stops they currently have that they're available.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Got it. And then how did you get to building Trust Wallet?

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. So.

• 20:08Speaker 00

  That's why we're supposed, we're supposed to talk about that at some point.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Okay, cool. Yeah, totally. Let's do that. So and then I raised like with my co-founder, like 20 million dollars, and then we raised even more after that.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  Wait, you raised 20 million dollars for Trucker Path?

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  What the hell? All right. Wait, hold on, back up. Who gave you 20 million dollars?

• 20:25Speaker 02

  So we found investors in China who were able to invest.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a company called Renren.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  That's a big company.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so they invested 20 million and then we raised 20 more to build the factoring for the product. So we went from being just assistant for the truck drivers to being a load board for the truck loads. So this is how we kind of transitioned and because we already had the user base, it was easy for us to build this kind of second product altogether. Yeah. And then at some point, we just sold the company to back to the Renren.

• 20:55Speaker 00

  Got it. So they just ended up buying it?

• 20:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  Okay. And then now you're rich. So what do you do?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Okay, so I don't think it mattered about that much. I think I'm all about technology, just building. But the cool part was that back in 2017, I think, let's talk about crypto now. Right, so this is the time when I started learning about crypto. I did, I got my first Bitcoin back in 2013 because people told me, like my friends, they said like, oh, we need to get this. I was like, I don't know what it is, let's just buy it on Coinbase. And this is when I got exposure, but then two, three years, it didn't do anything. And then 2017 ICOs, I realized that it's a cool market, interesting to see what's going on. So I got my first Ether, I went to buy some coins. I think it was like Polkadot or some other ICO. And so I just couldn't find a good wallet where I can store my tokens.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  So I think this is the problem hits me again, like that happened with a truck driver, who told me like, here's the problem. So it was like, what do you do? There is only my Ether wallet, that's the only wallet I can store my tokens. So I'm a mobile iOS developer, so let's just build a mobile app for people and make it open source. So this is where it all started.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  And when you see my Ether wallet, but you say it wasn't good enough? Or you just wanted your own? Or what was the impetus for starting another one?

• 22:11Speaker 02

  So I think the emphasis was to build a mobile app. And then when you think about the mobile app, you think about, you know, like good user experience, because it's on your phone, it's fast and performant. But then you also think about like, oh, this could be a much better deal than anything else, because it has secure enclave, which makes like really secure for you to use the apps. And then you can just store information securely. So I think you kind of utilize the power of the mobile phones that gives you to actually build really good mobile wallet.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  Okay, you built it yourself or you built it on a team, raised money? What was kind of first steps to building?

• 22:44Speaker 02

  So I was doing myself, so it was me for about five months, was doing the iOS myself. Maybe for about four months, I did it. And then a few folks on GitHub just joined me to help. I think we got to the point where we have like 15,000 users. And this is the time when I was working full time at the other company. I was just like doing mobile for fun. And my friend from the previous company, Trucker Path, he was doing Android. So he's the guy who I found just on the internet and told him like, oh, can you build me, help the Trucker Path for Android? So I know him for like five years. So this is only two of us who was doing like hardcore development for the trust wallet.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  Okay. And as you're building this, ICOs are going nuts, right? 2017, the big bull market. When you launch, how did you distribute the product?

• 23:32Speaker 02

  So I think first thing you would do well is optimize for the App Store. So as long as you find the right keywords, you can target users easily because you need to think about the logic, like where are going to users going to come from? First, they will come from App Store and searching the words they want. Like they would find like ERC20 wallet, right? And the second question, would they download or not is based on the reviews. So you know, you need to have some basic traction where people come in and say, oh, good reviews. I'll download it. It has like some good stars. So this is where you start and then it's so much easier to sell with a product once they're in.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  And as you're doing this, how much of the App Store optimization, right, what you're describing in terms of being able to be searchable and establishing that trust for people to download? How much is that data driven versus it's intuition? You're saying, I think people will search ERC20. Or do you have actual data that that's informing this decision?

• 24:23Speaker 02

  I think intuition, basically think like if I were the user, like how would they do that? And it's one of the most logical things to do at first. But then you also need to optimize how other people will find it. So there's people who will find through Google. And then how you would optimize so Google will know like this is the app that it needs to show. So it's all about like just optimizing the right keywords. Make sure you link properly and people understand because Google is not smart enough to understand like what is the good content. So you kind of need to guide Google and other services to say like, this is a good one.

• 24:53Speaker 00

  Well, and I think a lot of, this is a much bigger topic, but algorithms in general, they are built to do the things that we tell them to do, right? And a lot of that is predicated on the quality of the information we feed into the algorithm, right?

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  And so I think Google's a perfect example where if you give it really bad data or information, it's going to spit out bad results. If you give it good information, it will spit out good results, right?

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Okay, so you have the App Store, you launch. How quickly do you gain traction? Is it right out of the gate or is it kind of a slow, slow momentum building?

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's a slow momentum. I think the first 50 users were my friends in the first couple of days and the rest-

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Are these the anonymous hackers or are these like friends in the US?

• 25:33Speaker 02

  No, this is the friends in US, so they're all good. Yeah, so you know, everyone who was around me also were in crypto. So I told them about the wallet. They're just like, oh, this is really cool. And so one of the features we built that was like super exciting for anyone, like, I don't think at that point, Myether Wallet had this feature. It's called automagically. Like, this is the best feature currently out there in the market, I guess, which is you import your wallets and it just shows all the ERC20 tokens that you ever owned or have.

• 26:00Speaker 00

  Automagically is a big joke at tech companies that just somehow it works, right? Just automagically that happens.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And all the people that would come in and message support and they say like, oh, you misspelled this word over here. It's like, no, we didn't misspell it.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  Alright, so as you're going and you're scaling, right? You go from 50 users to what did you end up having as a user base when Binance acquired the company?

• 26:24Speaker 02

  So I think when the company got acquired, it was about 100,000 or so monthly active. But like four months after, like I switched doing full time, once we had like 15,000 users. So I think that was a good time where it's like, oh yeah, it makes sense. We need to-

• 26:37Speaker 00

  So you have 50 users. By the time you get to 15,000 monthly active, then you're like, oh, this is real. I need to go spend 100% of my time here.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 26:44Speaker 00

  Right? It continues to be built. How did you think about designing the mobile app from a privacy and security standpoint, right? Because the security, you have a ton of experience there, but another component of this is the privacy of are you KYC AMLing people? Are you allowing them to sign up anonymously? What was the approach?

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's a decentralized wallet, which only generates like 12 words for you and that's, that's it. And you know, you keep them secure and we don't collect any information from the users, like nothing at all. Neither we even collect their public addresses. We don't want to collect any information for, for their own like security. Yeah.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  And when did you first meet CZ?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  So I think that was back in July or June or July 2018.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:31Speaker 00

  And does he just call you up? Or how does that happen?

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think it's kind of interesting story. I was raising money at the same time.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  So this one was really funny. I hate dealing with investors myself. It's just annoying, you know?

• 27:44Speaker 00

  So lawyers and investors are not on your high. Okay, got it.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  They're really hard.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  This is a good room to tell that to.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially, yeah, especially with crypto and you don't know, like, I'm a technical person. So you know how you deal with business people. They have like different perspective. You know, they want to get returns like a couple of years later. For me, it's like, let's just build a knowledge and we'll see how we can monetize later. And so I thought that, you know, I have to waste raising money. Token sellers are big, so I can just raise money into token sale. So I decided to do it this way and I raised like five million in private and I wanted to close another five on the public sale.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  Okay, hold on. So you started talking to investors and you realized there's two paths. There's the traditional venture capital approach where you're going to go pitch Silicon Valley firms. They're going to give you, you know, whatever valuation and terms and you either take it or you don't. Or you realize that there's this new funding mechanism, which is an ICO. And there's a private sale. So you're selling tokens privately to certain investors. And then you can eventually do the public sale. Why did you choose the ICO over the traditional fundraising?

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you have always options, right? It's like the downside with venture fund because they control your company. They have lots of leverage on what you can do, whatnot. And, you know, their incentives, you know, like get returns and they will push you into like different directions to raise even more money, to like raise valuation. So with token sale, I thought that because of a crypto or decentralized wallet, there's so many ideas you can explore to build token, like token utility. So which will utilize your user base to build utility token to, you know, kind of incentivize people to do certain things. Right? So there is ideas about like CTR, decentralized exchanges and many others that you can just start from having the user base in the wallet.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Okay. And as you go through the token sale, the company is based in the US?

• 29:29Speaker 02

  So this is a tricky part, right? So you cannot legally raise money in US, especially because I'm US citizen now, it's even more trickier. So the part of what I was thinking is that like, let's just, you know, do offshore, pretty typical, and just raise money from people who is not US-based and then like-

• 29:46Speaker 00

  So base the company offshore and then not allow US investors to participate in the fundraiser?

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Right? And you brought up the point that if you were actually just a Ukrainian citizen, you weren't in the US, this would be much easier to do, right? The US regulation makes it difficult, and so you've got to be offshore, you can't offer to US investors. The 5 million you raised in private, that came from retail-type investors or like funds? Like, what's the makeup of those investors?

• 30:11Speaker 02

  So there was 12 investors, they all had equal shares. We didn't have any bonuses, neither any of that bullshit that people did in token sales. So I thought like, I'm gonna make it fair to everyone, no one is gonna get more than like this amount, that is fair for everyone. So that was my structure, because I didn't want to have people who would like flip tokens, wanted to make sure they stay long enough. Yeah, so that was my structure.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Okay. And then as you're going, getting ready for the public sale, that's when you meet CZ?

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Yes. So I was talking to the Binance Lab at the same time, so there were like the venture fund for the Binance. So this is the time when they told me about like different possibilities, and we're just talking about ideas to invest money. They weren't really interested into getting the token, they said like, we don't see any value into that. So we either invest, or we, and then like, couple of months after, they tell me like, "Okay, we will consider actually just acquiring you, but we would need to talk to you." And so I just go to-

• 31:05Speaker 00

  Wait, hold on. Talk to you? Were they not talking to you before?

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you know, I was talking to their team mostly, like to the Binance Labs.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Oh, you're talking to the Labs team, and now the actual Binance executive team wanted to talk to you?

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  And yeah, that's pretty much.

• 31:18Speaker 00

  And so do you do a phone call? Do you fly to go see them? Does CZ sneak into the US and come hang out? How's that work?

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I basically have a video call with him, talked for a bit. And then, you know, like, he told me, like, let's just meet. And then I'm just flying to, you know, someplace yet to meet him. And then maybe like three days after I realized that that's the only way to go now.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  Once you meet CZ, you know, like, this is the right guy to work with.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  So I am, uh, I'm very impressed with him, right? I've gotten to know him and I think that he is a, an incredible operator. But before you go meet him in person, what was your impression of him in Binance? Like after you see do the video call, what was your impression between that and going to meet him?

• 31:59Speaker 02

  Okay, so I didn't know much about Binance before I basically talked to CZ. Like I did some research and I kind of realized like, this is a crazy company. I don't even know how they got from like zero to one in like such a short time. Like that was pretty impressive to me. And so I just learned a lot about how they did it and like what they actually do behind it is like really hardworking. Nothing else like, you know, there is lock definitely, but you know, they really work hard.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  For sure. And so you go fly to an undisclosed location. Uh, I probably know where it is, but let's just say an undisclosed location. And when you meet with CZ, does he hard pitch you on coming and joining the company? Do you guys just talk about, hey, here's what we could do together? Like, what is that conversation like?

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, you know, my challenge was is that how do I make it so I, you know, make the product open source? You know, we build tools for the decentralized world. At the same time, we don't have anything that will push us into being, you know, kind of sustainable. Because we need to be sustainable, but at the same time not to be really attached to investors who will tell us like, oh, you cannot open source this because you're going to lose value as a company. And so I think I wanted to keep that, you know, straightforward. And I just told CZ, like, here's things that I want to build. Here's my vision for the next like couple of years. And then, you know, my goal is to get resources. All I need is resources, be sustainable and not to worry about like finances, marketing, you know, HR, any of that. Like, I just want to focus on a product and this is something that I love to do the most.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  I mean, even that, we have a small team now of like eight people. I still spend most of my time doing coding every day.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  And how did you negotiate in terms of the terms of the deal? Do they just offer and you either accept or don't? Or do you have a back and forth negotiation?

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that was another challenge because I raised money. So I had that leverage. And then, you know, the challenge was like, okay, so if we do acquisition, then I need to return money from the investors because that was raising for the token sale. And then we have the company that we need to sell, which is basically two and a half people. So it's my friend that did Android and there was somebody who was helping kind of like part time. And so that was basically the challenge. So and what I realized that would be the best return money to token investors and then just do with a, you know, selling the assets as a company.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Have you publicly said how much the company is sold for? Do you want to say it right now?

• 34:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 34:09Speaker 00

  No, okay. All right, so you sell the company and obviously it gets announced publicly. What is the reaction from your perspective when the acquisition was made? You guys get a bunch of a rush of users? Is it kind of just what you were already doing? Just now you're part of Binance. What was that initial change?

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, the change wise, I think, yeah, we got some exposure. We got more kind of brain behind us. So we got more users using the product, which is, I think, for me personally, I think this is how I see value like that we're bringing. How many people actually find it useful? This is how you can tell you actually make the difference. And so I think for me personally, that how many people can we help secure their funds? This is what I can measure as a success of the product itself. And this is one of the things. And then the second one is like, how can you help the whole ecosystem? Not to just grow your own product, but how can you help other companies to build products on top of it?

• 35:00Speaker 00

  And as you've been doing this, where are you today? How many users do you have? How many tokens do you support? Just give us kind of an update of where you are today.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Tough to say number of users because we don't do any analytics in DAB. So there is no way to tell like, oh, this is number of users who visit like monthly or daily. We're just like ditched everything that will like track down any analytics, any stats. And so I would say that approximately we have around like 150,000 monthly active users, even at this like down term time.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  Okay. And what is your feeling about the acquisition? Would you do it again? What's it been like to work with CZ and the Binance team?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  I think I wouldn't do company again. It's just too hard.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  You wouldn't do another company because it's too hard?

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's too hard. And I think it's a good time just to like focus on this for the next like five years. I think this is a perfect time.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Would you go back and sell the company to Binance again? If you had to do it over?

• 35:51Speaker 02

  I'm not sure. I don't think I would do it again. But in terms of like-

• 35:53Speaker 00

  You wouldn't do the acquisition again?

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no. I wouldn't do the company. But acquisition wise, I think, I think this is the best that I could possibly imagine. Like, we have all the resources. Our team is like full autonomous. Like, we don't interact with anyone. Like, here's like 10 people. Like, don't touch us. That's it. Like, I'm the only shield from everyone. Like, if we need something. And so it's cool because we're really focused on like open sourcing and also working on a mobile app. So we really stay focused on, you know, the product itself.

• 36:21Speaker 00

  Got it. Okay. And how do you look at the wallet landscape today? Right, there's obviously centralized wallets. There's decentralized wallets. There's some that are highly privacy and security focused. Some that are more user experience focused. Where do you see that ecosystem or that landscape evolving to over the next, let's say, five years?

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do think that decentralized wallets still, you know, far behind of anything. I think it's just because of the education and the technology itself. I don't think it's a good intuitive interface to have this like 12 words as a backup phrase. It's, you know, it's just not intuitive and people just forget about it. Even though you can write it down as a secure way to store your backup phrase, but you could lose it easily if you don't have a few backups. So regarding wallets, I think there is still need for good centralized wallets that will, will store your backup phrase, but will have a way to authenticate and then make it kind of secure. Because decentralized wallets kind of limited on how much you can have control over it. Because you don't control funds. You only rely on the user to remember their backup phrase. So I think it's gonna take a while.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  And I think the main focus right now is about like, how do you make it secure in terms of regular users? And then the second is like, how do you make a wallet that will support any type of digital asset? Right, in decentralized manner? And this is tough, like- It's not as easy as many imagine. It's okay, just when you have a backend which could connect any blockchain easily, but then when you have a mobile app that should be on lightweighted, it's much harder.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  How do you think about cryptocurrencies, utility tokens, and what now people are calling these like security tokens or tokenized securities, right? Is this something that you guys will eventually support every digital asset? Do you have a focus on just cryptocurrencies and utility tokens? Where do you come out on that?

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think the way we approached this problem myself, so we did like Ethereum wallet initial, right? And then I realized that it's really hard to build a wallet and support assets. And I started thinking from a different perspective. What if you create a library that will be well-designed and will allow anyone to support any coin or token, and we'll just make it open source? Here's how I looked at it. It's like, let's just build a tool that will allow anyone to add support and support any asset. And so now, like for me, I don't think I see big difference between like utility or security token, because it's still digital asset. Maybe there is a KYC for the security token that needs to be implemented, but in reality, this is just a piece of bytes on the blockchain. So for me, like, I don't see any difference, as long as it's somewhere in the blockchain, we can

• 38:47Speaker 02

  connect to it, and you can use it, as long as you have the right permissions and all of that.

• 38:51Speaker 00

  Got it. On the acquisition, last question about it. Did you guys take Fiat or BNB?

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Fiat.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  Fiat? All right. CZ likes to say that a lot of people are getting paid in BNB, so just checking.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  No, I think it was public, actually. There was a Fiat and also like stock of the company.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  Got it. Okay. Before I wrap up, I always do some rapid-fire questions. Other than Binance, what's the most important company in crypto? Can't say Binance, can't say Trust Wallet.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  I personally, like blockchain-wise, or like as a company?

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Either.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  It's a hard question. Just one.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  I would say GitHub. I think this is what will connect everyone.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  Very interesting. No one's ever said that before.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think personally that it's kind of missed. I think GitHub is the biggest company in crypto that will help everyone to connect.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Just because of the collaboration and the way that how integrated it is into the software development.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 39:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's actually a really good answer. If you could change one regulation or improve it, what would you select?

• 40:04Speaker 02

  I wouldn't change any regulations. They're fine. Yeah.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  Okay, not even the asylum, not the immigration, not asylum, not anything?

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Oh, man, immigration. I think it's good as is. I think there is ways around it. Yeah. Find a good lawyer. Yeah.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  Breaking things. I get it. All right. What's your most controversial thought in crypto? What's the one thing that you believe that the vast majority of other people would disagree with you on?

• 40:32Speaker 02

  I think most people disagree with me that they always think that there is only one blockchain and one community that is the best. And I actually disagree with that. I think there's lots of different communities on different levels and different people have different understanding of crypto itself. So we just recently added like support for XRP and then I just met some of the people who are like part of that community. They realized like this is totally different community. Like there's tons of people that have different knowledge and different understanding of the world itself. And then there's so many of them on the internet.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  Well, and taking a step further, it's not only just different knowledge and experiences, also people have different needs, right? People have different desires or they want different things. They want to use different types of technology. And so the experiences and knowledge help serve some of those different needs.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. What's the most important book you've ever read?

• 41:22Speaker 02

  From top of my head, I think it would be Alchemist.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Why?

• 41:26Speaker 02

  I think I like the journey that the person had around the book. And I think it's something that everyone should strive for is just to have a journey on things that they want to achieve in life. I think that's kind of missing from many people that don't have like motivation because then I have, you know, a goal which they will want to go to.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  Got it. Before I wrap up, I will let you ask me a question, but we have to talk about aliens.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Aliens. I actually know that you asked this question. So I'm listening.

• 41:51Speaker 00

  Did you come prepared?

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  All right. Are they real or not?

• 41:57Speaker 02

  Potentially. I think it depends how you consider aliens, right?

• 42:02Speaker 00

  Okay, alright.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Maybe they exist, we just didn't see them. I think that's my

• 42:04Speaker 00

  Okay, so explain that.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  I think the universe is big enough to have some type of human life somewhere else.

• 42:11Speaker 00

  Oh, like human-like life?

• 42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it doesn't have to be like

• 42:15Speaker 00

  It's like intelligent life?

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Intelligent life, I would say, yeah.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Because universes are expanding and there's different types of things that might be leaving somewhere else.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  Okay. I've also started to ask people now about the depths of the ocean, right? So we always talk about space and aliens, but we actually know more about space than we do about our own ocean. Would you rather go to space or to the depths of the ocean?

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Space.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  Why?

• 42:38Speaker 02

  I think there is more to explore.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  You think there's more to explore in space?

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Size-wise, yeah. I think there is more. I think I'm personally interested in like exploring the whole space just because it's so big. And then, you know, how big is it? Maybe like 200 billion years, right? There's so, because it's expanding in both ways. So I think there is way more to explore than just the ocean itself.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's pretty crazy how large and how long space has existed, right? And we feel pretty small now.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 43:09Speaker 00

  Alright, what one question do you have for me?

• 43:11Speaker 02

  Okay, I was coming prepared again. Yeah, I knew you asked so.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  Last night, the, uh, some people from Binance were messaging me that you were prepared and I got scared.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  No, I actually listened to your podcast. It's the best. And I have a question for you though. Okay, so if you had a superpower, what would it be and how would you use it?

• 43:32Speaker 00

  I would want to be able to speak and understand every language in the world.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  It's good.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  Because, uh, and I think that we'll all have, like by the time that we all die in this room, we'll be able to understand everyone and speak to anyone regardless of what language, right? So I think people have seen like Google has this thing that you can put in your ear and it like auto translates or whatever. Uh, I don't know how good it is, um, but this idea that in 2019, let's say that you were back in Ukraine, you didn't know English, you and I couldn't have a conversation be, just because you make different noises out of your mouth than I do. Like that's pretty ridiculous to me. Um, and so the ability for everyone to communicate the, you know, and understand each other regardless of if it's on one language or just there's some kind of technology that allows us to understand other languages, um, I think would be, uh, would be the superpower.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would be super. Like what if you wanted to just learn every language, which one would it be?

• 44:23Speaker 00

  I'd do something super weird like, well, not maybe I'd do a super weird one and like one that would be helpful. So like Chinese seems just like a really hard task. So like that'd be pretty cool. And then I had somebody come on and I'm gonna forget who it is. So I feel bad, but Afrikaans is a language that's, it's pretty fascinating to me. I don't know if it would be useful to know it, but I think that it'd be cool to to figure that one out.

• 44:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. So yeah, like I personally only three languages, but I would love to learn.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  You know, three?

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's Ukrainian, Russian, and then English now.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Isn't Ukrainian and Russian pretty similar? No, very different?

• 45:02Speaker 02

  So the thing is, so Russians wouldn't understand Ukrainian, but Ukrainians would understand Russian.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  I think that's how Bulgarians are too.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:11Speaker 00

  Like they understand Russian, but Russians don't understand them.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  That's so good, actually.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  The Russians are just confused.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  It's kind of like Spanish and Portuguese.

• 45:20Speaker 00

  Got it. All right. Actually, last question, because I'm curious. What is the general take on crypto in Ukraine? Do you have any insight into that?

• 45:28Speaker 02

  I think I would say for both Ukraine and Russia, since they're like similar culture. So I think everyone thinks about Russia as scammers and they did lots of scams actually back in 2017. Yeah. I think there is a good developers. I don't think many people have really good vision on what they want to build. I think that's what's missing. So they have lots of talents, but they don't see, they don't have that feeling like what's needed. Because I'm based in Bay Area, so I understand like the need of the products, but for them it's a little bit hard to understand.

• 45:56Speaker 00

  A little different.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  So that's why it might not happen in different countries, just because they're kind of lack of understanding of the products itself.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  Awesome. All right. Well, congratulations on the acquisition. At some point, you're gonna have to tell us details. I appreciate you coming and we'll do it again in a few months to catch up.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Sounds good. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Hey, everyone. Pop here. If you like this episode of Off the Chain and want to help us take crypto to the top of the Apple, Spotify, and other podcast charts, please do us a favor and rate, review, and subscribe. To review, simply go to the Off the Chain homepage, scroll down until you see the five blank stars. Taking 15 seconds to fill those stars in and leave a quick review goes a long way in helping us take the entire crypto ecosystem to the top of the charts. I appreciate you listening and see you next time on Off the Chain.