Jake Paul's Business Partner on Bitcoin, AI & the Next Trillion-Dollar Trade | Geoff Woo

Geoff Woo is the co-founder and managing partner of Anti Fund and a co-founder of Ketone-IQ and Archive. In this conversation, we break down choke points and information asymmetry — how smart money hunts for bottlenecks in AI, semiconductors, tungsten, and power. We also cover defense tech, humanoid robots, biohacking, Trump's aura in the Oval Office, and where bitcoin fits into Geoff's portfolio after 13 years of holding. ====================== Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Take out a Figure Crypto-Backed Loan, allowing you to borrow against your BTC, ETH, or SOL with 12-month terms, 8.91% interest rates, and no prepayment penalties. Or check out Democratized Prime (https://figuremarkets.co/pomp) and earn ~9% APY on real world assets, paid hourly. Unlock your crypto’s potential today at Figure! https://figuremarkets.co/pomp Figure Lending LLC dba Figure (NMLS 1717824). Loans subject to approval. Crypto collateral may be liquidated. Terms apply - see full disclosures at figure.com/disclosures/ ====================== This episode is brought to you by mogul ( https://www.mogul.club/pomp ). Deloitte estimates that $4 trillion of real estate will move onto the blockchain over the next decade. Through tokenized residential real estate, mogul gives investors access to professionally managed properties with targeted yields, monthly rent payouts, and potential tax benefits — all without the headaches of being a landlord. Learn more and claim a special offer at https://www.mogul.club/pomp See important disclosures at disclaimer.mogul.club. ====================== Arch Public is an agentic trading platform that automates the buying and selling of your preferred crypto strategies. Sign up today at https://www.archpublic.com and start your automated trading strategy for free. No catch. No hidden fees. Just smarter trading. ====================== 0:00 - Intro1:00 - Why VCs are hunting for choke points in every industry4:45 - Can OpenAI & Anthropic crush every AI startup?13:40 - How Geoff uses AI daily & the tungsten choke point17:43 - Investing across public & private markets25:48 - The memory trade, CapEx & the power/fusion bet33:07 - How top investors like Peter Thiel play every trend at once35:03 - Inside Anti Fund's defense thesis39:50 - AI, robots & the ethics of force45:15 - The Waymo & teenagers story52:18 - Facial recognition & the end of privacy54:44 - Neuralink vs ultrasound brain-computer interfaces57:05 - Biohacking, sleep & the future of longevity1:06:33 - Gambling, hustle culture & internet fame1:22:20 - Geoff's honest take on bitcoin1:26:19 - Where to find Anti Fund

• 0:00Speaker 00

  College football is back. So Hilton called to me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Oh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition, even a marching band wake up call at 5:55 and 55 seconds. Hit it! When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  And then it was also very interesting, had a dinner with Sam Altman at OpenAI. And he just mentioned that like he came back from Korea, he like bought like 40% of the world's supply of memory. And I was like-

• 1:09Speaker 03

  Like the memory trade. The memory trade is gonna be real.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  The memory trade that like, that like now everyone's seeing, like people knew about it like a year ago, right? And a lot of people made a lot of money doing that trade.

• 1:18Speaker 03

  Bang, bang. What's going on, guys? We got a great conversation with Jeff Wu. He's the managing partner at Antifund, and he's the co-founder of Ketone IQ and Archive. In this conversation, we talk about choke points and information asymmetry. Jeff has built an incredible portfolio of investments, and he unpacks exactly how he does it. We go through a number of different industries, different companies, and different strategies, how people are making so much money right now, and why this huge acceleration of capital and information in the digital age, what you can do at home in order to better understand how to allocate your capital, how to find opportunities, and what technologies are gonna end up being the winners, and what technologies may end up being the losers. There's a lot of great information in here, and if you listen closely, I think you'll pick up a ton of alpha. So here's my latest conversation with Jeff Wu.

• 2:00Speaker 03

  All right, Jeff. It seems like the venture capital and tech community is just assaulting the market, and they're basically just looking like a heat-seeking missile for where are the choke points? And then how do we solve that? And we're seeing this in power generation around AI, we're seeing this in defense. Like it's just every single industry, it feels like people have identified, find the choke point and destroy the choke point. Where do you think that this is gonna be most valuable? Like, is it just all AI stuff, or is this happening elsewhere?

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Um, I mean, I wouldn't even say it's just like tech people in general. I think tech people index with like the highest IQ people. But I think just the smartest people in the world are playing in this game where it's pretty clear that if we buy and believe that we're gonna be AGI future, what are the downstream impacts of that, right? So like, obviously, people are bidding up OpenAI, Anthropic, and then you go down to Nvidia and semiconductor chips. And I think it's increasingly valuable and clear that you go down to power, you go down to rare earth minerals. And I think it's like a super fun time to be in the market, because I think that you could either be in the camp that like AGIs are gonna replace all our jobs, and there's nothing for people to do, or it's like, hey, it's like, it's super exciting to like, play this chess match with the rest of the economy.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  I think the information is more available than ever, right? Like podcasts like yours, like you're literally getting the smartest people in the world, telling their playbooks and their roadmaps and their prognostication of what the future looks like. Take that and maybe trade on that, or just like do the mosaic theory. Talk to all the smart people in the world, doing all the interesting things on robotics, mining stuff, doing fusion research, making robotics actually happen, and just build up a bottoms-up universe of what is a choke point, what is underpriced. I feel like half the world is just pessimistic and likes to hate, right? And I think another half of the world is very optimistic, and you want to participate in the game. And I think that expresses politically, I think that expresses socially,

• 3:55Speaker 02

  I think this expresses culturally. But I think we each as individuals have a choice, like what kind of person do you want to be? Do you want to be a biased optimist person, or a biased short skeptical person? I think you can make money both sides. You just gotta be really smart in knowing what game and what biases that you have.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  In a world where one option is AGI takes everyone's job and we have nothing to do, or hey, this is actually gonna accelerate the world and there's gonna be more to do than ever, which bucket are you in?

• 4:21Speaker 02

  I think all the AI people don't want to talk about the deletion of jobs. And I think like, it's probably like the politically safe and culturally safe way to put it, because I think, this is the way I'll put it, I don't, the future's not determined. I think it depends on the zeitgeist of the people ourselves, like, yes, I think there is a universe where if everyone wants to be lazy, we can just Netflix and chill and watch sports and have AI and robots do all the work for us. And I think a lot of people would just rather just choose to do that. I think there are just some people that just choose to be lazy. But I think, I know like for yourself, like myself, I know a lot of smart, hungry people

• 5:04Speaker 02

  that just like making stuff, like building stuff. So I think there will be a lot, even more leverage and opportunity for those who choose to work hard. Because your ability to make a lot of progress faster is better than ever. So I think it's, you can choose your own game. You can be pessimistic and be like, hey, like whatever I do, it doesn't matter, because OpenAI is gonna smash me, and you can live like that. And I think your universe will create that, the conditions in which like, hey, I can't do a startup because OpenAI and Anthropic is gonna kill me, I can't invest because like their smart investors are gonna take all the alpha from me, and then you just get depressed. Sure. And then you just do drugs or something.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  But let's talk about like an OpenAI and their ability to smash people. I know you guys are investors at Antifund, and for those that don't know, Antifund is you, Jake Paul, Logan Paul, where he gets to done a great job putting together a portfolio that's really going after a lot of the choke points, right?

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:56Speaker 03

  But OpenAI, they have a very generalized approach and general purpose models, and I think they've really said that, hey, how do we use a general purpose model and go into a lot of these different verticals?

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 6:07Speaker 03

  The other bet would be like specialized workflows and, you know, very specific kind of application that it doesn't want to compete with OpenAI in the generalized manner. It's just saying, I want to dominate a very, very kind of small niche area, but we think it's big enough to build a big business. How do you see those two strategies playing out? Like, can the big Anthropics, OpenAIs compete in specialized workflows? Or is it gonna really bifurcate like what the addressable market is for the general purpose models versus, you know, these other areas?

• 6:35Speaker 02

  I'll just say what's more publicly known on the roadmap. I think the foundational labs are gonna verticalize and do application layer stuff.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  And I think there's just like an open question around like, where does the value accrue, right? Is like, do you just buy Nvidia and SK Hynix? Because like, like GPUs and memories where all the profits are, which is like currently where all the free cash flow is? Or is it the model layer, and you have like all this competition from Chinese open source? Or is it the application layer, right? Like the legal tech, the medical tech, you know, finance tech, right? Like, I know you have a, you know, Sylvia that's, you know, verticalizing AI on the financial wealth management side.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  I think that the harness and the context and the applications, you already see OpenAI and Anthropic hiring like PMs and teams prosecuting against that. So I think it'll, I could see a world where like there will be like an OAI Anthropic, like bio-drug discovery subsidiary or spinout. There are people building like finance tools. I mean, I think if you were like Sam or you're Dari, you're probably just looking at, what is the largest software TAMs? And just go down a list and be like, can we do it better? These guys are just using our models anyways. Can we have better continuous learning, reinforcement learning loops? Can we get better data than the startups? They're probably like, yeah, why the hell not? Like, we can recruit better, have more resources.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  So I think there is a universe where the big boys control like 80% of the most useful applications, and they'll let some startups play on the platform for like 20% of the applications. But I think, I believe in just like, you know, focus. So I think probably like the stable equilibrium is like, like the foundational labs will own like half the applications, and then the platform will have, like, the ecosystem will have the other half of applications.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  It's interesting to me because they started to launch some of these applications and stuff, right? But I do think that there are, the companies that are taking the different bet, the specialized workflows, I think that their argument, and I would make this argument about Sylvia, is there's a lot of stuff around memory, there's a lot of stuff around context, there's a lot of like fine tuning, there's a lot of like multi-agent orchestration, right? All that kind of stuff, that- If you're gonna go do that vertical by vertical, if you have one team, it's very unlikely you're gonna be good at doing that across all these different things. What I think you're talking about is them saying, well, hold on, actually, you know, I don't know, at Sylvia, we've got less than 12 people, 13 people that work at the company. Why couldn't somebody just go and say, I want to go into healthcare, or I want to go into,

• 9:10Speaker 03

  you know, finance, or whatever the vertical is, go put together a team of 10 people and say, use this model that we've built, but actually customize it and personalize it to a specific industry and take a, almost like a specialized workflow approach inside of a general model, you know, access to some.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's what they're doing. So I think that's also a question for young entrepreneurs, picking markets. I think you have to have an unfair distribution advantage, right? Like, I think, for example, I think even using Sylvia as the use case, right? Like, you're a financial expert, you're like a guru in this space, you have a big following. So I think you have a lot of credibility to say that, hey, my personal insights, the data, the network that I have is being baked into Sylvia, it's beyond just your general Claude or, you know, five, six model, right? So I think you have a distribution advantage that like a generic OpenAI or Anthropic will have to like.

• 10:00Speaker 03

  And we see that, by the way. Yeah, I think that we see definitely that advantage. The other thing that I think is really interesting is, and I talk to our team about it a lot, obviously, there's engineers that are building this stuff, right? And when it comes to just personal finance as an example, if you're an engineer building a personal finance tool, you immediately go to like, what is engineering possible, right? So like, oh, I can connect through Plaid. One of the things I keep telling them, you know, is like, hey, look, that's only half of someone's portfolio usually. They have private investments, real estate, cars, you know, collectibles, what, all this stuff. You can't really do something with someone's entire financial picture if you only have half the assets. And so you have to have manual uploads and like things that break the engineering kind of framework because you're used to like Plaid connections. And you're like, no, no, that's good, but there's this other piece.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  And you look in healthcare, like, there's a lot of this stuff where it's almost like specialized knowledge or specialized experience. And that's where I think you see the big model companies, like they're hiring investment bankers and like, you know, the people with that knowledge.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Exactly. So you gotta race, like basically Open Anthropic or Gemini of like, can you accrue so much proprietary data that you get the flywheel to escape velocity before the big boys do it? And I think that's, that's probably just always a challenge in every, every single startup. So I think it's a normal challenge. But exactly, I think you have that initial loop and flywheel and it's like, but the big guys also know that like, you know, they're spending literally billions of dollars on data now.

• 11:23Speaker 03

  It's crazy. I was just gonna say, I'm an investor in Micro One and I'm also an investor in a company called Sunset and they, they go help companies shut down, but now what they've realized is, well, there's this like intangible asset they don't really realize before, which is like all the data of how the company used to operate. And so they're now able to sell this stuff, right? I don't know how big the like human data training, you know, market's gonna be, trillion? Maybe more? Like, it just seems like there's insatiable demand from these model companies to buy all kinds of data sets that are coming out of, you know, the, these like data resellers.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, what I hear is that like all of the internet is like 30 trillion tokens.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Right? So, but what I'm hearing is that like the big OAI, big anthropic models, they have on the order of 200 trillion data.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  For their pre-training. So it's like, and I think it's like, it's just an interesting question, like what, like, okay, you can scan every single book, like is more video and physics data, right? Like, they're just a, so, and I think people are, they're just spending like $2,000 to $10,000 a task.

• 12:29Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  And for like agent traces.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Like, or like labeling like a graph or like, just like arbitrary, like, humans are pretty good at this, but like, there's no, just this big corpus of this data sitting there. So, yeah, I mean, budgets for these lapses is like literally in the billions. And yeah, I think it'll be interesting, like, oh, yeah, there's, will there be more synthetic data, like?

• 12:53Speaker 03

  That's what, I mean, we've done some fine tuning and stuff like that. And it's interesting because actually in a weird way, if you're a big model lab and you've got tons of money, you tend to sometimes just throw money at the problem.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  Right? Whereas if you're somebody like a Sylvia, you don't have as much money, you don't have as much access to compute, and so you have to get very creative. It's like the constraint should breed innovation if you do it right.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  And so synthetic data was something we did very early on, and it wasn't because we were like, oh, we're so smart. It was like, dude, we have no other choice.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Pay like a thousand dollars an hour for like someone to label.

• 13:26Speaker 03

  This is crazy. Like, they're showing up and they're like finding, you know, a financial advisor or investment banker and they're like, oh, cool, you make, you know, $200 an hour, what if they pay you 400? And the guy's like, well, I'm quitting Goldman Sachs, right? I'm just gonna go do this. But, but the other thing that, so Micro One, I spent some time with Ali there and one of the things he said that was really interesting to me is, he's like, it's not just the data, it's also sometimes the intention around the data. So one of the things that these human data companies are doing is, let's say you're a lawyer and you're redlining a document. What they have is on the side, when you do the redline, like that's valuable, but then explaining why you're doing it.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  Right? And so then it like, you're almost, you need the human to help train the model because you can't just go get a bunch of redlined documents and feed it, like, yeah, you get some value, but that intent data almost has to be specifically created for model training.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:16Speaker 03

  And that to me, when I just heard that, I was like, oh, this is gonna be a massive industry over time.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  And it makes sense because it's like, you're just trying, we, like, that is what human education is, like, you kind of express the intent of an action and you try to just have babies figure that out. I don't know, we're birthing some sort of like merged superintelligence, right? Like all, all of the best of humanities, just teaching like our best know-how to this machine god thing.

• 14:40Speaker 03

  It's crazy.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 03

  Well, how do you use it on a day-to-day basis? Like, I see you tweeting about a lot of stuff, everything from like the bots to all the stuff, like, what are the things that you've found in your day-to-day life where you're like, this is incredibly valuable?

• 14:52Speaker 02

  Um, I think, I, so, I think there's like a few things. One is just automating as much rote task as possible. Um, I think for all of our lives, I think there's just probably like half the stuff that you do every day, that's really awesome, half the stuff you just, is bullshit, just try to automate all the BS away. Um, but I think that's like, that's easy stuff. I think a lot of what I use, like Fable and just the most frontier models, they're just like, expressing, how to best express investor or like intuition or sentiment. Um, we're talking about choke points. Um, you know, one thing I've been thinking a little bit more about is just like tungsten.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  So it's a heavy metal. Um, I guess traditionally it's been used in like armor, because it's like one of the most densest metals, high melting point, but it's actually very interesting. A lot of the high-end semiconductors, right, like all these GPU chips, they melt, right? They, there's thermal risk if you're just running these super, super high. So of course, like people have talked a lot about copper, but you need like tungsten nodes to like actually like not melt, these like high-end chips. So it's pretty interesting to see that China has like the highest purity concentrate of tungsten, they're starting to like shut down exports of that because they know that's a choke point.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  And then, okay, like, we might need this for more memory, more DRAM, more, more, more GPUs. And then it's also very interesting that if you're thinking about like fission reactors or fusion reactors, again, super high temperature to like make fusion work, a lot of that stuff is also tungsten-based. So if you just imagine like five years out, if fusion really happens, maybe we just need a lot more tungsten in the world, right? So then.

• 16:41Speaker 03

  It's fascinating though, because you're, you're essentially, like, this is a good example. You have to understand, public markets, private markets, technology trends, commodities, supply chain, geopolitics of like, what is China doing with their supply chain is, right? Then there's like a regulatory component. It is really stretching people who are like on the playing field.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:05Speaker 03

  To say, can you operate in a chaotic, dynamic environment to make money?

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Yes. And I, I think that's where I'm having fun. And I think if people really want to be successful and work hard, then you can have really a lot of fun. Because I think I cannot do all this research by hand and just reading like commodity reports and export like trails from like, like import, export logs, right? But you can have AI just start pulling and just again, how do you, how do you try to back or counter some intuitions? So I find that to be very, very helpful, right? Like, okay. And I think you need to have like some contract of like what the prompts are, what are like, how to even just like get, extract the right data from these models. But I think that's a very good example, right? Like, to your point, like, we touched a number of different paradigms, and then how do you

• 17:54Speaker 02

  make an investment decision? Um, like, I don't think, I don't think these models are really good at trading, right? They're not like ingesting like day-to-day like market book, book orders and just, I'm not trying, I'll compete like RenTech or D E Shaw or jump trading on this, but I think where I might have alpha is, I have better access to the best private entrepreneurs who are building robots, building data collectors, building the next generation of chips. What do they see as the choke points over the next two years, five years, that isn't expressed in the public market yet? Or I think like a lot of the public market, I think, again, I think half the world always likes to be skeptical and like short all this stuff. And it's like, and it's, and that's a beat of markets, like, you go one way, I go the

• 18:38Speaker 02

  other way, let the smart person win the bucks, it's fine.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  You know what's interesting is, a couple of years ago, many of our friends who have hedge funds or work at hedge funds, they all became these like crossover investors. And I'm convinced that they didn't do it to make money, they did it for the access to the information to then be able to use it in the public market. But if you understood what was happening in the private market, it was a great kind of proxy for what was gonna happen in the public market. And a lot of times, the private market was actually leading because they would see certain things and then there was just a freer flow of information, right, all this stuff rather than every quarter, all this stuff. So that's one. But then two is like, in a weird way, as they came into the private market, I think a lot of people who were living in the private market, we were like, you know, don't encroach on our game here. But now the world demands everyone to kind of be like a, I'll, I'll call it like a macro investor, right?

• 19:26Speaker 03

  A macro investor very much thinks about the relationship between, okay, if interest rates happen here, if this, you know, fiscal policy decision happens, how does it affect this other asset that, you know, may be sensitive or not sensitive to these things?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 19:38Speaker 03

  It is kind of a three-dimensional game, and that's why it's, one, very hard, but two, it's intellectually stimulating for a lot of people to go think about like the macro stuff.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 03

  You know, it's a different type of macro, but it is still trying to play this game of, how does tungsten?

• 19:55Speaker 03

  AI compute, copper, China, you know, all that relate to each other. And then how do you express it? I remember years ago asking people, okay, uh, there was a point where everyone was convinced stable coins are going to be big. None of the stablecoin providers were public.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  How do you make money? Even though you know, like, okay, it's small today, it's gonna be big. You don't get credit for the intellectual longing of the idea.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, STC doesn't matter.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, you can't buy the stablecoin itself. So it was always like, and I would ask people this whole time and people were like, I don't know. And the best answer anyone could come up with, uh, somebody once was like, well, go on a prediction market and just like take a

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Yellow bet this thing.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, like a market cap of global stablecoins or something, right? Which is actually pretty creative, you know, uh, way to express the idea. But like, that was a really good example of something that very quickly became consensus, but there was no obvious way to express the trade. If memory is a bottleneck, like there's, I don't know, five companies in the world, you can go buy the stock. Right now, could you buy one and not work out as well as buying another? Like, there's all that kind of stuff. So maybe you gotta go buy the DRAM ETF. Right? And like that, that's your expression. But I do think there's a lot of stuff, you know, like here's an easy one.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  Up until recently, uh, the robotic hand. This is a 30 year problem, 50 year problem that people have been working on. If you have a belief that someone is going to solve the robotic hand and be able to have the dexterity, strength, all this stuff, how do you express that idea?

• 21:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:23Speaker 03

  Do you have to go find the single name private company that's going to be the one to do it? It's gonna be a public company, is there, you know? All that becomes very complex. Now, we just saw recently somebody come out at 1X and they've got like a pretty interesting hand and it looks like they're getting closer. But to me, that's where it's really interesting as an investor is like, there's an choke point. It's an impossible problem that no one solved. But if you believe it's going to be solved, how do you make money?

• 21:49Speaker 02

  I mean, I think even to your point on macro, I've been spending a lot more time in New York, hanging out with my friends who, uh, one of my buddies, he just spun out a Duquesne Druckenmiller shop and starting his own, own, own fund. And I think they're spending a lot more time to think about privates too, right? Like the best macro, to your point, I think everyone is just realizing that.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  I think if finance used to be just much more cottage industry, right? Like if you're a macro trader, you just trade interest rates or you just trade, uh, stuff that doesn't touch like private markets. You're a VC, just do seed and pre-seed rounds. You're a growth investor, just do series Ds and do the IPO round. I think, like, smart people realize that there's, and maybe this is a risk, but like smart people usually think they can be smart in other domains. Extrapolate that across. And I think that's why you see the best, best investors just play every single game. Because everything compounds into each other. I mean, I think even just like, one example that I think a lot about is that, um, we backed a really cool company called Efference, they're making robot eyes.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  So one, there's just not a lot of bespoke, purpose-built cameras for robots.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  So even for the robots of the, the humanoids themselves, or for the data collectors, right? Like some of these companies like Micro H1, Scale, like they're literally having GoPros or Meta glasses or like iPhones taping this stuff. But what if you had like a mini Nvidia Jetson or PCB that, and you have, uh, stereo camera? So you get depth sensing out of the box and you don't have any of the processing and you manufacture at scale cheaper than everything else exists. Can you, one, supply all the, uh, data collectors? Cause they're just using like shitty Meta glasses that, you know, great product, consumer product, but it's not purpose-built for data collection. Or just like all the cameras, like, like the bleeding camera providers are like real sense of spun out of Intel, they can only make like a few hundred cameras a month.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  So this is like a huge choke point there. But what I thought was interesting there was like, one, I think that's a really cool company to your point, like if I can invest in the best robot hand, I would, yes, go find that founder, CEO, engineer and just give them the private check. But I think what I found to be very valuable is that these people at the bleeding, bleeding edges also just identify all the other checkpoints. I remember a phone call, like six, nine, 12 months ago, he was talking about like, he needed to buy more DRAM because he was like, like, I'm in China, I'm like going to visit all these camera factories. Like I'm, I need like a big check to like, go buy a bunch of recycled DRAM out of like

• 24:25Speaker 02

  Chinese, like apparently there's like Chinese suppliers who like rip old DRAM chips off of like old computer boards and like resell them. And he's like, I need like, like a couple million bucks to just like buy all this DRAM. And then it was also very interesting, had a dinner with Sam Altman at OpenAI and he just mentioned that like, he came back from Korea, he like bought like 40% of the world's supply of, of memory. I think it was like, it was like maybe public at the time, so it's not like, so like, it was like, just in, in, in the moment where there was just like, oh, you know, it was like

• 24:54Speaker 03

  Like the memory trade, the, the, the memory trade is gonna be real.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  The memory trade that like, that like now everyone's seeing, like we, you, you, people knew about it like a year ago, right? And a lot of people made a lot of money doing that trade. But I think that's like a very good salient point around like how this is actually manifested in like a personal anecdote. It's like, okay, like I had a couple of top leading practitioners, one with the, one of the most important AI companies, one just like a, a early stage startup, each identifying like a very interesting insight and how do you piece that together?

• 25:25Speaker 03

  All right, folks, I'm gonna take a little break from this episode right here to tell you something about Figure Markets. Now, I think Figure is super interesting. I've been an investor in this business for a very long time, from the private market to now they've gone public, built a very cool business. And I think what's most interesting here is they have two sides to a marketplace. If you've got Bitcoin and you want liquidity, but you don't want to sell the Bitcoin, you want to keep the upside and just take a loan out against it? Figure now offers these crypto-backed loans. They charge about 8.91% interest, that's 9.9% APR, and you can borrow up to 50% of the Bitcoin that you give over to them. And so when you do that, you're unlocking capital, but you're not triggering taxes or giving up the Bitcoin exposure. Now, on the other side of this marketplace is somebody who's got cash and they want to get yield.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  And on that case, you can actually go and you can use what's called the democratized prime product and it's allowing you to earn up to 9% APY. What's cool about it is they pay you hourly, it's backed by real world assets and there's no yield gains or this like token inflation that is susceptible in the crypto industry. So if you have Bitcoin and you want to borrow against it, go check out Figure. If you've got cash and you want to earn yield up to 9% APY, should also go check out Figure. They've been a great partner to me. I'm a very happy investor in the business. Go check them out at figuremarkets.co/pomp or click on the link in the description. And that's figuremarkets.co/pomp. I, I do have a three strikes and I'm in.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  If I hear the same thing from three people who don't know each other, I just learned like, don't ignore it. It's just like, uh, I forget, uh, maybe it's Rick Rubin has, uh, this saying of like, uh, uh, when an idea's time has come, it will find a vessel into the world, whether it's through you or somebody, it's just like, it's, it's time for that idea, right? And people are all coalescing around it, their intuition, that, that we're all being trained, you know, in terms of what we're consuming, whatever, like now is this idea's time. The same thing is true with the bottlenecks or with, you know, these various things. It's like everyone is technically working on something different, but there are these big macro waves, right? And so memory wasn't needed for just one thing. A bunch of people in different industries all were like, AI is important.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  Memory is a bottleneck and so they all arrived at the conclusion around the same time. If you hear from three people, you just, just go, right? It's kind of like the, uh, the drug, just like buy then research. Right? If you hear three times, just buy, research.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  I mean, one thing I think about now is that, like now the memory trade is like fairly well-understood and like pretty fairly priced, but I think the thing I think about is that, is it like actually a structural shift or is it cyclical?

• 28:01Speaker 02

  And I think this is also relates, and I think about this also in line of like GPU, CPU, CPU ratios. One thing that I've been thinking about is that like the GPU trade did really well. But I think what's less understood is that like cognition, another one of our portfolio companies, Scott and, and Russ are just crushing it there.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  There, I would say, leading on like cloud agents for development, right? So right now, like you, if you're running, um, like single agent inference, you use a lot more GPUs, but you have like one single thread. But if, if you're just orchestrating like a thousand agents, each on their like own Docker cluster or Kubernetes cluster, you need a lot more CPUs. So it's like, you already see Intel, AMD trading up, because I think people are starting to realize, maybe it's instead of like eight to one GPU to CPU, maybe it gets one to one CPU to GPU. And I think the question is like, is that expressed in the market? Am I too smart? Am I too late? Is it fairly priced in? So I think there's something that I'm thinking about there, but also to memory.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  If we really see like more humanoids than humans, I think you still have 100X more memory to go, right? So it's just like, is it, are we too early for that, that like next structural shift? For like, yeah, maybe Micron and SK Hynix should be like 10 trillion dollar companies. And maybe that's true if you literally have 20 billion humanoids.

• 29:27Speaker 03

  Well, there's gonna be two, two things that I think are gonna be true at the same time. These companies probably are undervalued. Like I think Micron is cheaper now than it was the beginning of the year. If I, if I remember correctly, stock's up, I don't know, hundreds of percent, but it's still cheaper on like a multiple basis. And so, yes, it has run, but maybe actually it's more attractive now.

• 29:48Speaker 03

  And so they'll likely continue to grow because it doesn't look like there's any relief coming for the choke point, right? But then the second thing is now there's this like massive economic bounty of profit that is sitting there and everyone is like, Micron and SK are about to make a shit ton of money. If you're like some enterprising young startup founder, you're like, you know, what would it take for me to get a piece of that profit pie? And we've recently seen a couple of companies etched, right? And some of these companies that say, hey, look, we're gonna go try to do really hard things that other people didn't think were possible. In a way, being like really young and ambitious and not having a lot to lose helps. Having access to capital, which there's lots of capital now helps.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  But I do think a lot about like, there's the economic pile or the economic incentive has to be so obvious to elicit the competition. And so I don't know, like, are we gonna see three or four American, you know, memory companies start coming to the market? 100% people are gonna start saying in the public market, even if they can't do it, right? So like, there's always the like grift, you know, aspect to it. Yeah. But there probably will be one, two, maybe three technical teams that are like, hey, we incredibly think we can go, you know, relieve this choke point. And if we do, we can make billions and billions of dollars. Like that's how capitalism's supposed to work.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I mean, I think Gavin Rupp for etched, I mean, I think, I mean, I, I mean, their main target is Nvidia inference, right? Like I think the memory trade will, like they would also buy a shitload more memory too, right? So I think it's like,

• 31:17Speaker 02

  I mean, I think that's an interesting question, like I, which is also something I've been thinking about. Like, do I rotate my attention towards more capex heavy companies, right? I think, you know, I was born and raised in Silicon Valley in terms of my career. So like, I think we're very used to just be capex light, high margins.

• 31:35Speaker 03

  Uber owns no cars.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  And, and, and those are beautiful business models for a reason, right? Like just print out cash.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  But I think, I think my current conclusion or current like checkpoint of thought is

• 31:50Speaker 02

  if software is just going to be a codex or a Claude code away, and you're just kind of competing on prompts, and then maybe you have a little bit better distribution, a little bit proprietary data. Maybe we're just going to be in a paradigm, you just need to go into atoms, you just need to do more capex stuff.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Which, which I think are the most interesting companies will have a lot of capex, right? Like all, like everyone's buying data centers, everyone is buying chips, everyone's buying power. Right? I think the power trade is like increasingly interesting because I think that

• 32:25Speaker 02

  everything is just like a denomination of watts now, right? Like you assume the chips are good, you assume the models are good, you assume the applications are good. Okay, then it's just like, how, how cheap can your electricity be? That's why there's hype around like space clusters, ocean clusters, like nuclear clusters, right? Like I've seen like, I'm sure you've seen all the different data centers powered by all sorts of interesting power things. But I think to me, it's like, why I'm excited and optimistic is that like this literally feels like you get to play and like support, help make sci-fi real, right? Like fusion maybe can happen, right? We recently invested in Helion, they've, you know, visited their reactor prototype.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  And I think they're close to some breakthroughs that hopefully will, will be published and all of that stuff. But like, you know, I remember just as a kid, this is like Star Trek stuff, right? Like fusion sounds cool, like some like Star Trek movie thing. But if we're like at the cusp of seeing this actually happen in our lifetimes, that's so sick. And to be able to invest, participate, support those kinds of projects and entrepreneurs. Like what else would I do? Like, it just seems so freaking awesome to do.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  The, there's something about like the iPhone was the hardware innovation and then the software happened, right? And it's created all this profit. And it feels like, you know, if you go back to maybe the dot coms, like, hey, there's all like the telecommunications and wires and data center and all stuff, right? And then you got all the software. I think that people have just now learned, like there's a lot of folks in Silicon Valley who are like, I've seen this twice now. I ain't missing the third time, right? And they're just ready to plow money and when they saw, okay, there's the choke points, there's the infrastructure being laid, all this stuff. And what I find maybe most fascinating is there's a number of people who are considered the best investors in the world. Like these guys are all over multiple trends at the same time.

• 34:20Speaker 03

  And so you look at like the cap tables and you're just like, why is Peter Thiel in the ocean, you know, data center kind of compute? He also, oh, he owns X percent of SpaceX who's now doing orbital data. And you're just like, it's impossible. Like whoever solves the data center problem, Peter and founders fund is going to make a lot of money. And they're just like, yeah, we know some are not going to work, but like we get the first look at so much stuff. And so it goes back to like, there's an information asymmetry as well. And there's an access asymmetry of these private opportunities.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that by definition of what makes market work, work is information asymmetry. So I think a lot of, you know, the way I think about it's like, just, you know, like, you just gotta just go to like the primal problem. Okay, like I need to have unfair access to information. All right, let's figure out how to do that. So it's like, okay, I think on one hand, I think doing public podcasts helps get your ideas out there. But I feel like it's been very good to generate inbound ideas. But then two, I think that's probably like 10% of just where the information is. Cause I think a lot of the inbound is just bad. But then that means there's a lot of sleep work to just go meet people early in person.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  You know, travel, be in San Francisco, be in New York, be in San Diego, be in, you know, just like meet these people where they're at.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  And I think that's like very well deserved, right? Like if it's just like, you just go read Reddit threads or read a Twitter thread and people tell you a stock to pick and make a lot of money. Okay, that's okay, maybe you can still do that. But how do you earn the information asymmetry? Like get to people early, add value, give them information, get some information back, and just try to collect as much of that as possible.

• 36:04Speaker 03

  What about in the national defense space? You guys have done, you guys are in Andor, right? And you've also looked at and invested in a bunch of other companies. Like talk a little bit about what the thesis there is.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  I think it's a very simple narrative. America is the best country in the world. Like we love America and America should have the best weapon systems.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  I think the legacy, I mean, there's like an interesting question because I think it's like, when I get bearish on like this super AGI pill thing, I just talk to legacy people and like, dude, these guys are retarded, right? Like, so you're like, oh, okay, like I'm back, back on like the super bull market train. Cause I think it's

• 36:42Speaker 03

  It's like, we think we're over indexing on like the people we know can't be that smart. And then you go talk to somebody, you're just like,

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, some legacy person.

• 36:52Speaker 03

  Oh my God, you don't know what Slack is, right? Like I'm going to put all my money with the new guys.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, or just like, hey, like we'll, we'll discuss this, our quarterly retreat in two months and maybe it'll be on the 27 pipeline, right? You're just like, man, these guys just not, they're just so complacent, lazy, just not doing anything.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  You want to hear a crazy story? There's somebody that you and I both know, they sold their company in the media space. And the acquirer has a quarterly board meeting and I think it's two hours. And they told me that when they were going through the transaction, they were told, we have to be ready for this board meeting because if it does not fit in the two hour window, it'll get kicked. But it won't get discussed again until the next board meeting. Like there's nothing happens other than these couple of people come together for the board meeting and then they basically just like,

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Sign some papers.

• 37:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, they just like disappear, no one works until the next board meeting. And he was like, should I sell my company? Like he almost had like some apprehension because he was like, wait, I can't imagine a company working that way. And it's kind of like successful, right? But it was just like, that was their like operating, you know, mentality was just like, no, we just make four decisions a year at the board meeting.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Yes. And I think that's where I go back to, we should be optimistic, right? Cause like so much of the world is run by these dinosaur. I don't, I don't need to even age, right? Like I think it's a mentality, right? Like there's some old people that are freaking savages still, right? But I think they're just like, again, you gotta choose, do you want to be a savage or do you not want to be? And it's just like, if you want to choose to be a savage, is the best time to go rip in the world. But yeah, I, that's where it's like, you talk to, um, yeah, so that's why I think it's like, okay, you talk to like legacy primes, man, like, man, they're just slow. I don't know if they're like even passionate about passionate. Cause I think if you are like a super pro, like patriotic, American, young engineer, it's like, you just want to ship fast, build the coolest weapon systems.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  And like, is that going to happen at an Andor or Serronic or at like a legacy prime? It's like, there's just very much like a cultural talent swell towards like these new, this new, new star, new primes. So

• 38:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, they basically just become these magnets of anyone who's worth anything in the industry and wants to go work for them anyways. SpaceX did this in space for sure. Like anyone who is valuable in space for the most part, just was like, I'm going to go to the place where I can use my skills best.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  And I think the last point, like why I like defense is that like, I think the world is increasingly competitive and dangerous, right? Like, I mean, just like a couple of active wars going on right now.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah, I wish we could know what there's no war, but I'm not stupid. You're not stupid, right? Like, like pacifism has never worked, right? Like, we're not going to be like the, try that gets conquered by the, like the barbarians or not like, let's not be too intellectual and too abstract around just base reality. That like, you could be really smart, but if someone just has a bigger stick and punches you in the face and kills you, takes all your shit. Right? So like, we need to have the best shit. We need the biggest stick. So I think just from like a, like being pro America and just like pro reality. Like I think, I think where Silicon Valley gets weird is that it's like, oh, we're too abstract, we're too intellectual, like we should be pacifist. It's like, law of nature is like the bigger dog eats smaller dog.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  So like, we're not going to change human nature. So like play towards reality. And I think third, like, I think if it is actually more efficient for the taxpayer, that's great, of course, right? Because like all these legacy programs are cost plus overrun, don't ship, and they're super expensive. If these like startups that are building in like a Silicon Valley approach.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Great, like we have better weapons, cheaper and faster. And I get to make money off of it. Awesome.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Do you so like a lot of the national defense stuff is federal national defense, right? And so we're talking about Andoril, we're talking about Serronic, all this stuff. Do you see a world where this starts to happen at the local level as well? Like, one of the things that I find interesting is Axon, you know, they do the body camps also. It's like they're selling a lot to local police departments. Okay, great. But I don't know, the private military contractor space was red hot during the Iraqi Afghanistan wars.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  I keep going back to like Flock and some of these companies are like, you know, they got the cameras. They got the license plate readers, they got drones. At some point, do we just see like a private company say, no, we're going to do the, you know, local private police and actually build like a scalable business?

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Um, I, I know, Rob, we'll chief strategy officer of Flock really well. Went, he was actually went to high school with him, so he's an OG homie. He's a police officer turned entrepreneur.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  I think they're being thoughtful around just like public safety, just keep it pretty separate from like private military contracting. But I guess like, I like that idea, though, like you're just like,

• 41:54Speaker 02

  one of my favorite video games is Cyberpunk 2077 and like these sci-fi books and like video games. I think they predict aspects of the future. And like part of that universe is that, like, the US government merges with like the biggest, like military contracting company called Milit, and so like the president of the United States is like, also like the biggest military contractor called Militech. And then there's like the Japanese, like Asian cluster called Arasaka, where it's like, kind of like the Japanese god emperor, but it's also like all the, you know, Japanese conglomerates all merged together and they all have like basically private military security.

• 42:29Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  And I think to your point, I think, I think one reason, going back to like why all these billionaires want compute is that I think if you go super abstract, like if compute is intelligence, you needed to make sure you have access to a lot of compute.

• 42:48Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  So I think that's why a lot of these guys like, one, I think it's everyone wants more compute, but it's like, if really shit hits the fan, then you make sure you have like a couple thousand GPUs that like that you can, that you just physically have, so you can like run some inference for yourself.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  But I think it stands to reason that, I mean, I'm sure Elon's probably thinking, hey, like, I'm gonna just make 10,000 soldier humanoids. So I have a private army just in case, right? Like, if you were a trillionaire, like, you're probably just thinking super sci-fi and super hedge case. What if the US government wants to take me out? Like, I probably need 100,000 humanoids that can carry guns.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Like, right? Like, like, that's me being maybe a little bit creative. But I think that's, I think that will happen.

• 43:34Speaker 03

  So this is a very interesting point. So the humanoid companies, the ones that are publicly known, that I think people are paying attention to, obviously, there's Tesla, Figure, Abtronic, One X, right? We can go through, maybe there's like four or five.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Unitree in China is cool.

• 43:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, Unitree, Agility Robotics, right? They all have pretty much explicitly said publicly, they will not allow their humanoid robots to be armed with weapons. I know of one humanoid company, which I'm not gonna say their name, who is taking the exact opposite approach. They're saying, no, no, no, our military is going to need this. We are going to create a robot that can have the weapon. And we actually think that that's an important use case of this and it's gonna save American lives because they're not gonna be on the battlefield, you know, blah, blah, blah.

• 44:20Speaker 03

  We always talk about technology as like, who's got the best tech? One of the aspects, though, that we learned in with Andoril or even now we're relearning with Department of War and Anthropic, whatever, is like the strategy and the like moral posturing towards defense.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:41Speaker 03

  We are seeing a stratification of like winners and losers based on decisions that they're making.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:46Speaker 03

  Right? And so humanoid is just like, maybe the thing that is, it's, if it's an abstract, like, oh, I could use AI in the military, people are kind of like, ah, I need more details to like, know what I think about that. But when they like see a picture of a humanoid with a gun.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  People are like, oh shit, this is scary.

• 45:03Speaker 03

  We were like, I saw Terminator, right? You know, take big. But you're like, no, like, there's going to be a massive business built doing that thing because the military needs the humanoid robots.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:13Speaker 03

  Right?

• 45:14Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. I feel like, to me, it's just like, let's just be adults. Like, I think there is too much moral, yeah, I think that's a great point, moral posturing. It's just like, uh,

• 45:25Speaker 02

  to me, it's like, I, I, yeah, I understand why it's scary, but I also understand it's inevitable. Like, if Americans don't do it, Chinese are gonna do it, Russians, Ukrainians, like, there's gonna be autonomous targeting of human targets by robots. It's probably, if not already happening, gonna happen.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  Well, drones, 100% are, you know, doing various things.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:46Speaker 03

  And then the other aspect too, that I think is, uh, is pretty interesting is like drone on drone warfare. Okay, like, I think people under, kind of understand that. If the drone is going after a military like combatant on the battlefield, I think people were kind of like, this is crazy. They saw the videos of like the drone chasing the soldier or whatever.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Ukrainian boy, yeah, that, those videos are hardcore.

• 46:11Speaker 03

  But like, I think we're just like, hey, this is the new reality of war.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  Did you see the story about the Waymo and the two 15 year old kids in, I think it was San Francisco recently? Oh, man, I can't wait to hear, hear your thoughts on this. So my understanding of the story is that there are two 15 year old kids who are in a Waymo. They're drinking and they have a gun, but it's like a, like a orbs, they got like a paintball gun, but they've painted it black.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  And the Waymo is driving them wherever. The Waymo has cameras in them

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  that are supposedly only accessed during, you know, uh, unique moments or like, you know, emergency type situation. But long story short, if somebody at Waymo realizes these kids are drinking, they look underage and they're shooting out the window.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  So they call the police and the Waymo pulls over, essentially like disables itself.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:07Speaker 03

  It is unclear whether they lock the doors or not, but they claim that they like tricked the 15 year olds. Be like, oh, there's some car trouble, wait a minute, whatever. And like, they told the police where the car was and the police show up and they get the kids.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  I think a lot of people are like, well, if you're like shooting stuff out the window, again, like, I'm cool with that because, you know, uh, obviously we don't want that happening in, you know, residential areas, whatever. But I think like, what happens if the, there's just two guys walking down the street and like a drone just like flew over and like, I don't know, like shot a net at them or something. You know what I mean? Like, or did something.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  There's gotta be a line at some point where people are like, all right, this is, we're now at a point where like, I'm uncomfortable.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:49Speaker 03

  And I don't know if, like, where that line is, but it feels like we're like racing towards it and we're gonna hit it soon.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:55Speaker 03

  Where the technology is almost, uh, has more power than us?

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I think that's where I think the American constitution, I think our political system handles these educations pretty well, because I think it makes sense that our elected officials set policy. But when I think about like, like that specific example, I just think about, like, my heuristic has been like, what if you're the victim of that? What would you want from that?

• 48:19Speaker 03

  A hundred percent.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  Like, fuck those kids. Like, if, if someone was like drive by shooting at me, yo, just take them off the street. Like, I don't care. Like, like, that's sad, right? Like, if your wife or your kids are walking and like some drunk kids are like shooting orbies at your, at your grandma, they should go to jail. So I think it's like, so I think that that specific case, it makes sense that they should be penalized.

• 48:43Speaker 03

  But like, here, here's a good, so I, obviously, I agree, right? Yeah, they should go. There's definitely be in trouble, right? Whatever. Uh, I don't think there's a lot of people who are like, nah, just let them.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  Let these kids go.

• 48:53Speaker 03

  In California, California, maybe.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  Would be like, hey, just kids, harmless.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  But I was talking to KFC from a bar store recently about this and, uh, he brought me to a point, he's like, is there a difference between if the Waymo locked you in the car?

• 49:07Speaker 03

  So like, it's one thing if the Waymo like pulls over, stops, calls the cops, whatever. But like, if they lock the car?

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  Now it's kind of like, did Waymo kidnap the kids? Like, is Waymo the judge and jury of the situ, you know what I mean? Like, it becomes this like very weird dynamic. And like, he had a funny point. He's like, well, as a kid, maybe it's like now, rather than like run from the cops. Now it's like, let's trick the technology. Like, you know, it almost becomes like higher, uh, uh, odds or whatever. But I do think, again, like you keep going down that example, like, yes, you're shooting out the window. Okay, obviously, everyone's like, stop that. But then could the technology go too far? And if they like lock you in the car, then are people are like, well, I wanted you to stop the shooting stuff, but like, you shouldn't lock the 15 year olds in the car. That's like, you know, inhumane. I don't know if it's gonna happen, but like.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I might, my personal perspective on that is like, no, I think you should lock them and make sure they get prosecuted.

• 50:02Speaker 03

  I'm just driving to the police station.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, or driving, yeah, that might be better. Just drive them to the police station. Like, they're clearly, I have a lot of empathy towards the victims, right? Like, I think we, I think as a society, we almost think too much about the crime perpetrators. And like, dude, if someone was like literally just shooting at you from a car, like, you probably get PTSD. Right? So just like, hey, we need to just have like good, strong policy to like not let crime happen. I feel like.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  I mean, I think, I mean, this is just a cultural, political conversation, I think, just happening in America and around the world. It's just like, do we try to be nice to some of these specific groups that are high probability or higher probability in crime, or try to be more lenient, or like special case them, or you just have more of like a hard line role, like, hey, we're not accepting this.

• 50:53Speaker 03

  Today's episode is brought to you by Mogul. Four trillion dollars. That's how much real estate Deloitte says moves on to the blockchain over the next 10 years. That's good news for the rest of us, because this year, the VIX, Wall Street's fear gauge, it ripped past 30. The S and P went red, and stocks reprice every time a politician tweets. Real estate doesn't do that. Tokenization is the key to giving everyone access to real estate. Here's what most people don't realize. You can invest in tokenized residential real estate right now, thanks to Mogul. Mogul's founders come from Goldman Sachs, where they deployed billions into real estate for institutional clients. Now they handpick the properties and handle the management for you. Historically, an 18% average annual IRR is 3X better than their competitors.

• 51:34Speaker 03

  You get targeted yields over 8%, monthly rent payouts, tax benefits from depreciation, and zero 3:00 AM tenant calls. Over 100 properties have already launched on Mogul. More than 30,000 people have already signed up, too. If you want in, plus get a special offer, head over to mogul.club/pom. Again, that is mogul.club/pom. You can see important disclosures in the description and head over to mogul.club/pom. All right, guys, let's talk about something that's actually moving the needle in crypto right now, and that's my guys over at Arch Public. These guys are killing it. They continue to lead the way in everything that's got to do with agentic trading. And everyone knows that nothing else is being talked about in the market, other than let your AI agents trade whatever asset you want.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  Now, with the addition of Arch AI, the Market Wave algorithm, and their tax harvest tool, they have turned this into a true one-stop shop for automated trading. They have now over 25,000 users, and that includes several corporate treasuries, asset managers, and businesses. And so the testing phase for Arch Public, that is over. They have perfected how to automate advanced trading strategies without ever taking custody or asking you for your private keys. It's a big deal, obviously. So Arch Public is an action speak louder than words type company. That's what I like to see. They give every user access to their platform absolutely free. You get to test it, you run the strategies, you watch the performance in real time. And then only after all of that, do you put real money in to go put it to work when you're 100% comfortable.

• 53:01Speaker 03

  That's it. No pressure, no hidden fees, no gotchas, none of that nonsense. Go to archpublic.com right now, and you can get started for free. Once you see how you can accumulate and manage crypto this way, you'll never trade the same again. Archpublic.com. Go check them out today.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  I got, I got another one for you. Have you seen the Instagram account? There's a kid, he, he meets strangers. And then he basically makes them feel like a celebrity. Okay. So he wears the, he wears the meta glasses, and then he does the facial recognition. So he like walk by you. He takes a screenshot of your face. He walks over, he uses the app to figure out who you are. He'll look through some of like your content online or whatever. And then he'll come back, and he's got these videos that have gone like mega viral online, because he'll find like, uh, he's got one with an Amazon driver, like a delivery guy. And that guy played like D3 basketball. Yeah. But he'll come back, he like, bro, he's like, I've been a lifelong fan. I remember you dropped 20 against, you know, some college no one's ever heard of before, whatever.

• 54:00Speaker 03

  And this dude like lights up. He's like, oh shit, he's like, can we take a picture? Like, so it's like very feel good, sounds awesome. He's like making these people's day, whatever. And then like, wait a minute, this guy's just walking around with like consumer technology with facial recognition software, and he's able to tell all this information about somebody. Weird world we're headed towards, right?

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, but like, I guess like what I think about is that that's, I think if you could say I can just Google you, like 50 years ago, that wouldn't sound really scary. I think that's a natural extension of just like, if I auto ID and get some of your content. Again, I think it's all, I think it goes back to like intent. Maybe that was like a nice like loop around, right? Like, I think a lot of policy should be just guided on like good intent and like good principles.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  So I think that's like an interesting world. I mean, that's, that's a cool idea. I would wear those glasses if I could like read your micro expressions. Are you like, are you lying to me? Are you bluffing me? Like, are you earnest right now? Right? Like, I think that would be pretty good utility, just improve human communication. But yeah, it should be like kind of opt-in in both ways, right? Like, hey, we're gonna all be AI-enhanced, just read each other's micro expressions. So it's like harder to bluff each other, or it's like, hey, let's just take off the devices, right? Like, that's probably gonna be some new social norms. Right? Like, we're hitting that now, right? Like, if, if I'm wearing meta glasses, and I'm like, hey, like, or Zoom calls, I like, I don't like to, I usually don't like to be recorded. I'll just tell people, hey, like, let's just.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  I kick them out.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, boot, boot, boot the thing.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  So I think there will be just cultural of like norms get adapted. Cause I guess it's like, do we just expect the rules and policing rules of the last 50 years to extend to the next 50 years? I don't think anyone would expect that, right? Like, the way we consume, everything has changed. So I think it's very natural to me to say like, hey, policing rules and just social norms of how to interact with AI devices around, will just naturally evolve.

• 55:43Speaker 03

  I've been thinking a lot about the Neuralink.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  You know, I saw that now they've got 26 of them implanted, which is a bigger number than I thought it was. How many people have to have it safely done before you did?

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Um, well, I, I like a lot of the ultrasound techniques. Cause I think the Neuralink case is a little bit weird, because I don't want to actually have electrodes stuck into my brain, which damages my actual neurons. But if I could have, you know, so like, we're investors in Merge, which is a OpenAI spinout doing ultrasound technique for brain-computer interface.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  If it doesn't blow my existing little mini brain, but only gives me upside, like, I'm pretty down to experiment with it.

• 56:30Speaker 03

  Because it's not, in that case, the ultrasounds are not implantable.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Right. You're not implanting something into your brain, right? Like, like for Neuralink, you gotta open up your skull and like literally just jab like thousands of electrodes to like, touch the sun, like, you gotta, they gotta read like the actual electrical signals. So I feel like my brain is like pretty good, right? Like, I mean, I used to be much more open to like all the psychedelics of the world and, and, and I'm like, dude, I'm too old slash, I think my brain's pretty good.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's exactly my thought process. I got a good thing going.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Pretty good. Like, I'm, I'm kind of smart, but I'm kind of dumb. I don't need to like get way dumber or way smarter. Like, I'm fine. I'm pretty chill.

• 57:06Speaker 03

  The way I told somebody recently is, if you got a good thing going, you got nothing but something to lose.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:12Speaker 03

  But if you're like rock bottom, if you've got like massive PTSD, if you're depressed, if you're, you know, if you're in a really bad spot, there's nothing but upside. So it's like, it kind of actually, I'm not pro or con. I'm just like, there's different things for different people.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, no, I think for like the therapeutic use cases for PTSD, it sounds really, really great, but I just, but just going back to like Neuralink or psychedelics, right? Like, I'm very curious, like, like one topic, I'm not sure we even have free will. Like, I'm, I, I think I might just be like a biological LLM, talking to your biological LLM. We think we are conscious, but like, we're just spitting tokens back at each other and other, and the audience is also just like getting their brains, like reactivated by our prompts into their brain. I, I, I'm not even sure if we're conscious. But, I mean, I, I guess like my practical answer is like, I kind of live like I am, but I, I, maybe we're not conscious.

• 58:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know. So it's like, it seems cool, all right?

• 58:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:06Speaker 03

  I, I do, uh, whenever I think about like sleeping versus being awake, this is a very weird thing, right? Like, the state that you enter for a third of the day

• 58:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:20Speaker 03

  is not very well understood still, but also the like transition period. Like, I don't know if you've heard, uh, there's this thing went viral recently, like, if you close your eyes and you take your eyes while your eyes are closed, and you move them rapidly back and like left and right, uh, that is supposed to induce you to go to sleep faster. Because I guess it like mimics the natural. Yeah, like whatever, it's like whatever the natural process of your body, so like you can induce it.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 58:48Speaker 03

  So like, of course, I hear that.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  I think REM is when, like, what, that's a way to tech, when you're in deep REM.

• 58:53Speaker 03

  Okay, interesting.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Switching, yeah.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  So, of course, I try it, right? And you're like, okay, I didn't fall asleep immediately, but like, I definitely got sleepy. You're like, like, wait, what other hacks are there, you know, around this, whatever? But like, the transition from like awake to asleep is one of the weirdest things in the world.

• 59:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 03

  Because you're literally transferring between these two states, but you're like, I don't know, like eventually at some point. Like, I remember the first time I talked with Mateo at Eight Sleep, he was like, I'm gonna compress. You know, like, the goal is to compress eight hours of sleep into like, I don't know, maybe six, but feel like you got eight.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:24Speaker 03

  I'm like, dude, if I got two hours per day back, that'd be amazing.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:27Speaker 03

  Right? And you're like, yeah, you can use technology to do this. Like, they're doing cooling and, you know, all this stuff, but like, that's where we're headed. It's like, we're just gonna continue to manipulate the body and the mind in all these interesting ways.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's something that I think is actually finally, I think also just a very exciting area. I think like, this like dream of biohacking or longevity just wasn't computationally tractable before. Right? Just like too complicated to simulate every single molecular protein interaction in your body. But it looks like we're getting closer and closer to actually being input into the human machine to drive a specific output.

• 1:00:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  So like.

• 1:00:03Speaker 03

  Peptides and stuff, that all falls kind of in the same category?

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think those are just like modalities to impact some input to express some output, right? If you just think of it from a very engineering approach. So like, yeah, peptides are just, I mean, just basically just snippets of proteins that like, your body naturally produces, you're injecting exogenous ones, so like just retune in a slightly different direction.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  But yeah, like if you could just model out. Like the exact amount of this peptide or that peptide for specific outcomes. That's that sounds pretty cool.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Like I'd be, I guess, like, going back to your question, I think I'm, I've always lived a life where it's like, I'm down to try everything once type of a mindset. Just try to like, or it's like, if it's like the safe story or the crazy story, just try to choose the crazy story. Obviously, it don't die, don't go to jail, right? Like, just don't blow yourself up. But like,

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  Push the limits.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, this, I think we have a very short life on this planet and just can you have like a more interesting life path? And just try to bias.

• 1:01:07Speaker 03

  You know what the things that we're around the same age, but I think it's very different for us than maybe younger generations. I remember being in like high school or even college, but like take high school. Every high school has like, there's a couple of dudes who like, they do a lot of drugs.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Right? And whether it's like a weed or doing coke or whatever, but like, never once did anyone think like, one of those guys may die. Right? Like, like, like a lottery because there's fentanyl or whatever. And now I think that I read maybe a story every other day of like some kid randomly was at a party or, you know, whatever happens and like they overdose on fentanyl. And you're just like, dude, there's something about that mentality, I think that we all grew up with, where like, the risks that younger people now have to deal with in some cases. He's like, I don't know if I would be like, you know, I'll try it once if it was like kind of Russian roulette, right?

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause like it goes to, you might actually die.

• 1:02:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, you can't, you can't end the game.

• 1:02:02Speaker 03

  You know, it's like, all right, smoke a cigarette. Like you can't really die one time. Okay, fine, whatever. But like, if somebody was like, hey, man, there's, you know, a line of coke, one out of 20 chance that there's fentanyl in it. Like, I think everybody I know would be like, nah, I'm good. Right? So like, it's very weird of how risk evolves for like different generations.

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:02:22Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  Do you think that makes younger people more risk averse?

• 1:02:27Speaker 03

  I don't know. Probably in some ways, but, but also in other ways, I think that like, if you're still the person who takes the risk and then you like have survivor bias, then maybe you're like, actually like, dude, I'm special.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Rescind, rescind.

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  I'm special, right? And you see it like gambling, meme stocks, like in the financial markets. I'm fascinated by the GLPs. I've now heard of multiple hedge funds that are banning traders from taking them. Because they reduce.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Their aggression.

• 1:02:55Speaker 03

  It reduces like risk taking, it reduces like addiction, like all the stuff, right? So like, there's this positive benefit, but they actually want the risk taking on.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:03:03Speaker 03

  And so, you know, again, will that end up being the like policy? I think that's going to be pretty hard to like dictate what people do in their private lives.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:10Speaker 03

  You know, they're not like, hey, you can't drink or whatever.

• 1:03:13Speaker 03

  But it is kind of interesting when you're like, hey, wait a second here. Are you hurting your performance at work because you want to like lose 10 pounds?

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:03:22Speaker 03

  I don't think we understand that stuff well enough yet.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's like, that's actually a super mega trend, right? I think everyone will be microdosing GLP-1s in the future. Cause I think they're just too much, it's too easy to snack and too easy to fat. So just like, okay, I can imagine a world where,

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  like what are the downstream impacts? Like people drink less, people party less, people gamble less, right? Like, I, I, I don't think it's big enough impact for me to like necessarily trade on it or whatnot, but I think it goes back to like, we as society either up bottoms up, choose what the culture looks like, or there's some top down, right? And, and if you're in a position of speaking to a lot of people, maybe you have some top down pressure. But I think wherever people want to go, I think people want to be hot and people want to live longer.

• 1:04:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, the looks maxing stuff is, uh, well, and one is real, but also two, it's fascinating to me because in a weird way,

• 1:04:14Speaker 03

  I don't think that anyone was like using that term maybe three years ago or whatever, right? But like, women all follow this like curve, right? Of like over time, it's like makeup, then you know, plastic surgery, whatever. And I remember reading an article about Brazilian butt lifts in the Atlanta airport. And they were saying that you would get off the plane and they, uh, cause you can't walk. Right? So they would have all of these wheelchairs lined up. And there was a crisis of wheelchairs at the Atlanta airport. Because all these planes that were coming from South America,

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:51Speaker 03

  they just needed all the wheelchairs. And so they were like, what do they do? And I was just like, like, what a weird, you know, like second or third order effect.

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  I mean, I have a funny take that I think South Korea is a leading culture indicator of the rest of the world.

• 1:05:04Speaker 03

  Okay, explain.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  Cause one, they were early on looks maxing, right? Like the plastic surgery rate for both men and women are very, very high. Two, they're not having kids. And three, they're like degenerate meme stock gamblers.

• 1:05:15Speaker 03

  They are.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  Right? And I think it's like, actually, if you think about like, what a lot of young people that I see, right? Like Klav is like pushing looks maxing. And I think it's also impacted me personally. I think when I was growing up, probably same with you, like, plastic surgery seemed like really weird and like, I don't want to be with someone with plastic surgery, just seems unnatural. I think I've, whether it's like culture, I feel like it's, sounds like, hey, you just want to improve yourself. Like, I feel like I have a less visceral reaction negative against.

• 1:05:45Speaker 03

  Like when you hear somebody's doing it or something.

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like, cool. Good for you.

• 1:05:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  Right? But I think, you know, when I was like a teenager growing up, I'm like, ah, it's like, what's wrong with you?

• 1:05:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  And I think, and I think literally like, like, it's like the Kardashians and all the celebrities just are talking about it and they're all.

• 1:06:01Speaker 03

  It got normalized.

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  It's super normalized now.

• 1:06:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I think. The ones that are still weird to me though, are like, uh, if somebody, guy, girl, whatever, if they are like, hey, I got a nose job or something like, well, fine, whatever. But like, if I ever hear someone's like, I got like calf implants, I'm like, nah, you just like, didn't go to the gym.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:15Speaker 03

  Like, you know, like, there's still some, I think that are like too far for me.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Or like height, how about height extension?

• 1:06:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, like that. First of all, I don't, I still don't understand how they do that, right? Like break your legs or something. But on one hand, you're like, uh, if somebody is like four feet tall.

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  You kind of get it.

• 1:06:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm like, dude, I don't know. If I was four feet tall, I'd do the same thing, right? But then if you're like, no, I'm like six foot, but I want to be six two. I'm like, you're so vain, you know, it's almost like the, the thing, but like, again, like it's the same thing.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Speaker 03

  Right? And so like, maybe the attitude should just be like, hey, if you're insecure about this thing or you want to change it or whatever, like you got the money and it's safe. Like dude, knock yourself out, whatever. Who cares?

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, but yeah, so I think that, that, that like South Korean analogy also reminds me like that rat experiment for like, when it gets overpopulated, there's a lot of like preening rats that don't have sex, but they, they want to be attractive. Right? So it's like an interesting, like, again, like, like a sneak peek of what the future could look like. But I think like the downstream side, it's like, I think we're just getting a little bit more extreme behavior. Cause I think social media rewards like more extreme behavior. And I think also just the financial side, right? People are just like, they know they cannot survive the nine to five wage cut, whatever term. So you just got to be swinging a hundred X meme stocks and like poly marketing and call sheeting.

• 1:07:34Speaker 03

  Dude, it's crazy.

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  Right? And I, and I think it's like, you know, we have a lot of friends, Ash, invested in some of this stuff and

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  I, again, like, I'm not the moral arbiter, but it's like, yeah, it's, this is like pretty basic, like, hey, every single sports game, it's like, hey, bet on your favorite player, pick your favorite dish.

• 1:07:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. I am very convinced that the gambling in particular is going to be this like huge national epidemic. It may already be there, but like it's going to get worse. We've got a, a guy we've been working with, he does a podcast called Nothing's Off The Table. And, um, uh, he's got a very personal story too. He lost millions and millions of dollars gambling and all that stuff, right? And I watched a couple of these episodes.

• 1:08:16Speaker 03

  And I don't even watch the full episode. Like I just watched like clips or whatever. And you hear these stories and you're like, by the way, it's almost never like one thing. It's not just like, oh, I just became a degenerate gambler and like, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't, you know, it's like kind of a tsunami of, you know, things that happen at the same time. But you listen to these stories and you're just like, dude, there is a lot of stuff that had to lead up to that being the way you like expressed the loss of hope or the, you know, the degeneracy.

• 1:08:47Speaker 03

  But when you go and you actually look, you're like, I kind of get it.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I have a lot of empathy. Like I understand like the little paths where like.

• 1:08:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. Like even if there, everything was out of your control, you end up in the situation and then you're just like, dude, I don't know. I don't have another choice. I'm putting it all in black.

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:09:00Speaker 03

  You're kind of like, by the way, that was stupid, but like, I see how you got there.

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:09:04Speaker 03

  And I don't want to encourage it by any means. I don't think it's the right thing to do, but also like, yeah, man, because the other path was like, you're a cashier at Wendy's and you're earning, you know, nine bucks an hour and like, you know, you got a five year run to get out of the hole.

• 1:09:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:21Speaker 03

  Dude, I get why you, you know, you took money from your mom and like, you know, yeah, went and bet balls and strikes at the baseball game. Like, I don't know.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  I, I think that's why I've, I think like conversations like this, like, like the content you put out, I, I, like I didn't really understand like the info product, info market, like game that much because I thought it was like, because maybe I just had a bias that like, I thought it was like easy to learn, easy to get information. But like, as I just gotten older, so I've talked to a lot more demographics of people, it's like, I think people just actually need to see like you make it. You need to see like the Jake Paul story of how his dad was a roofer, his mom was a nurse. Like he was a, like a 10 year old kid doing $10 an hour landscaping, the hustle for his bucks. Like he was negotiating his first little 5,000 follower Vine video. He got a $200 brand deal, right? So I think these like,

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  Like, blue collar work ethic stories need to be like told more and all the variations and flavors of it.

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  I think that the internet now incentivizes, obviously you like the built in public stuff or the like the authentic component of it, which is very different. Like the mainstream media, that was not a thing. It was either they make you successful or they like, yeah, or they show that like the downfall, you know, whatever. But like they were the arbiters of what stories get told. I know on Instagram in particular, there's a ton of these stories of like kids will be like, you know, I bought this property and I'm gonna turn it into the world's largest Airbnb. Like today's day one, you know, whatever. And by the way, like almost none of them make it to day five, right?

• 1:10:55Speaker 02

  Just like, most of them are LARPing.

• 1:10:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course. But like, you go and you watch some of this stuff and you're like, you know, it's pretty interesting to watch this. And there's a guy on Instagram, I think his handle is Daily Reps Guy.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:11:09Speaker 03

  And he's been doing this now maybe 200, 300 days, basically a year, maybe. And what he did was, he wasn't like morbidly obese, but he wasn't like in shape. He was kind of like a skinny fat, if I could respectfully say that, right? And he's like, I'm gonna work out 20 minutes a day and see if I can get jacked. And he, great editing and all the stuff, but he basically has like a pull-up bar and like a dip, you know, kind of like station. He's got some dumbbells and he's got like a weighted vest. And it looks like it's like in a room in his house and he's got like a shot clock, you know? And he turns it on and he'll be like, you know, I did 20 pulls, I did this, whatever. Dude got jacked. And he's been doing

• 1:11:50Speaker 03

  it for a year and the account is Daily Reps Guy. And of course, that like, people want to follow along and like see this, whatever. But what he does in every video is he says, you know, today's day 347, this is what I look like on day one. He goes back to the skinny fat guy and he's like, and now is what I look like. Here's today's workout. And you're like, alright, he's got a formula. But actually, this thing is like, there have been days where I've been like, dude, Daily Reps Guy's gonna work out today. Like, am I gonna not go work out? And so you're like, I don't know, like, a lot of parents were listening to, I don't know, Tony Robbins or, you know, whatever like motivational thing that they did. Maybe our version is just some different like Instagram account.

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's where I have hope or optimism, right? Because I don't think you can, you can't, you can't make everyone a slave to your cultural values, right? Like, people are gonna have to decide how they want to live. So I think the best we I can do is just like, hopefully you support missions and like, present a character that can be helpful for others to follow and what you think is a better path.

• 1:12:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  Right? So I think that's like the, I guess I'm more of a fan of like a combination of ideas versus like, hey, let's go ban everything that we think is bad, right? Like, I don't, I don't have arrogance to think I'm godlike taste on everything. But like, it's like, hey, I can at least offer and show an example of like how I think of life is well-lived or like support people and help platform people that I think are living really good, well-lived lives and thoughtful lives. And I guess you kind of have to bet that humanity bends more towards like a productive, happy, optimistic one versus one that's like pessimistic and depressed and like gambling their lives away.

• 1:13:27Speaker 03

  When you're supporting other people, like what is your mission? Like, when you think about like, when you wake up every day and you're, you get excited, like, what's the thing you're going towards?

• 1:13:37Speaker 02

  I think like the, like the feeling, I mean, to describe the feeling and then maybe the way I express it. Do you remember when like, you're a kid and like, you just like really love like building like a Lego set or like playing a video game, like you open something, it's like just super fun. I remember like, I really like to like, like open watches and stuff. I want to have that childlike curiosity and feeling forever. Where like, I get to like, look at problems and like tinker with it and like work with other smart people to like, understand a system and maybe improve it. Why? Like, I don't know. I think it's just like, that gets my brain going. Like, that gets me off intellectually. So like, can I

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  just be in that type of state as frequently as possible?

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  But I guess we live in like an economic, competitive, capitalistic world. So then I think, how do we translate that into like, modern economy? It's like, well, I want to have capital. I want to have, I guess, money, power, fame. I used to think they're all fungible, but I think they're actually pretty distinct. But I think you take some money to just make shit happen. Obviously, like, I want more money so I can make more shit happen. And, and again, I think like, my, like, my feel for it is I don't really, I own, it's kind of self very materialistic, but it's like, if I can see the ideas I want to see in the world happen more through the capital that I can wield, then that's cool. And I think I just like,

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  you know, working with like Jake and Logan really closely, like, I've just seen like, very interesting like world where like fame is just very different from money. Like, I think a lot of rich people think that they're cool. And then you just like, and I think you just see like, when there's actual cool people in the room, no one gives a fuck. Like, people actually like look up to like the cool people. And I think power is also like, a variation of that, right? Like oftentimes in like a lot of the rooms we're in, like the rich people are like the least cool people, except the least interesting stories. They might have to the cool people and the powerful people.

• 1:15:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  So I've just been, you know, in that aspect, like, do you want to be like Jake where you just have to roll with security and you can't go to the bathroom by yourself? You know, it's like, ah, that's a, maybe you don't want that much fame, but like, you want the right relative levels of fame, right? And I think that that seems to be a nice sweet spot. Like, I know you, we have a bunch of mutual friends who are like super well-known in like the investor and startup world, but like, no one knows that they exist in like the broader markets, like, like the multi-billioner guys. Like, that seems like a really nice sweet spot where it's like, the people you want to know and respect you, respect you, but like, you can still just.

• 1:16:22Speaker 03

  Respect is the word I was thinking when you were talking. It's like Carl Anthony Towns during the Knicks run, he was like, he said some version of like, respect is more important than money in New York City. Like, that's the currency of the city. And of course, New Yorkers, you know, they fucking love that, right? But like, I actually think that's just the currency of the world. Is, it's almost like, if you don't have respect, but you have money, the money is no good in the rooms that you want to be in.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  Yes, that's actually, yeah, yeah. That's well said.

• 1:16:52Speaker 03

  And so it's like, I recently went to the White House, first time I ever was in the Oval Office. I've been in the White House, but never in the Oval Office. You walk in.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  Shout out, I was a gangster.

• 1:17:00Speaker 03

  And there, but there's like, it's like a gravity to the room, right? And, and of course, we're there for the Invest America Trump accounts, but Trump talks about whatever he wants to talk about when he gives a speech. And so he was saying how he likes to negotiate in the Oval Office because he knows when other people come in, they're discombobulated. And he's like, you know, I feel like I have an advantage in here. And I'm like, I could easily see that. But also, like, they're talking to the President of the United States, right? It's not just the room. It's like, it's a powerful and important room. It's a powerful person. The whole like hospitality and like the dance or like the pony show to get in.

• 1:17:40Speaker 03

  You've got to go through multiple layers of security and then escorted. And like, I think people almost like discount all of the like show.

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I think people underestimate that. I spent a little bit of time with the President. Like, that guy has crazy aura and crazy energy. But I, but I think this is where I think, when people think he's stupid, it's like, dude, he, he understands the, like, the orchestra. Like, I think he really understands.

• 1:18:03Speaker 03

  Orchestra is a good way to describe.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  Like, he just, like, you cannot be, have sick aura when you're just like, boom, all the Secret Service, all the security, right? Like, you're just, everyone's just got, you're bowing down, right? Like, you just, you cannot help but like, but like, I don't know, why do people like the World Cup? Why do people like, want to go to the Jay-Z concert? It's just like, we're all kind of medically like, beholden to like, like the cinema, the circus.

• 1:18:26Speaker 03

  You know what Trump does that I noticed that no other human I've ever seen does? He walks in a room and he stops. He just stands at the door and he just looks and everyone looks at him, right? Everyone else walks in the room, right? He takes two steps in and he just stops.

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  Look at me.

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  100% of shit. So I was at Pubkey, our friend's own Pubkey, and he came, he did like the Bitcoin transaction to buy the burger or whatever. I think it's fair for me to now say this, hopefully they don't get mad. They went to do the transaction, it didn't go through. And he was just like staring, he didn't know what was going on, right? And so they were just like, nice!

• 1:19:04Speaker 03

  And he was like, great! And I was like, this is going great. But, but the second thing was, he walked in, he just stopped right, right inside the doorway. And like, everyone was there to see him, but like, everyone turns and looks. And it was just like, dude, this guy just sucked every ounce of energy in the room and like, it like just powered him up.

• 1:19:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:23Speaker 03

  And the rest of the time he was there, like, you know.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  I think that's truly genius, right? Like, I think that's where I thought, what I enjoy, what I do, I get to like, see the best humans at their craft, like doing their game. You're like, oh man, like, he really understands like the interpersonal dynamics, like power dynamics. So I understand why he's so effective. It's just like.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, like

• 1:19:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, you may not like his policies, but like dude, the guy obviously became president twice.

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's hell of effective. And I think it's like, yeah, I, it's not even politics. It's just like, you gotta like learn and from like what he does, that's so powerful.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  So yeah, so I think that's sort of like the power thing is kind of interesting, right? Like I, I'm not super political, but like I think we're just entering a world where policy just actually really matters. So I think, right, like, are we gonna be communist? Are we gonna have free like capital markets like, like I'm a capitalist, right? So I think insofar as that like,

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  like we need to like keep some like core American values and principles. Like that's where I care a lot about just on the power side, where I think it is actually. Yeah, there is, I, I think there is like a fight for the soul of what like the future of America looks, look, look.

• 1:20:35Speaker 03

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

• 1:20:36Speaker 02

  It's like we're in New York City, right? Like Mom Donnie has like a point of view.

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  I guess like the other side has their point of view.

• 1:20:44Speaker 03

  Well, the other piece too, that I think when I hear other folks who are like, I'll just call it like kind of the, the average commentator online, who is not somebody that we know well, or in the tech or business community, whatever. When they hear critiques of some of this stuff, I think they immediately think of like, oh, you hate this person. But actually what I have found in talking to my friends is like, I could sit and talk for hours and commend a number of things that Mom Donnie does. Almost none of them will be policy related.

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:14Speaker 03

  But like, the dude is an excellent communicator. He understands the internet better than almost any politician. This dude is playing on a thousand compared to people who like, they don't know how to open their phones.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:21:24Speaker 03

  Right? So like, I could look and dissect a ton of stuff and be like, this guy is like A++ at doing it.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:21:32Speaker 03

  But then the critique is like, no dude, but the like, the policy is stupid. Like you're freezing rents and it's gonna lead to higher rents, right? And so you look at that, and I think that that is like not very well understood by most people because they just hear the critique and they're like, no, actually every single smart friend I have is like, what can I learn from this person?

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:21:49Speaker 03

  That they're really good at doing.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:21:50Speaker 03

  So if you hate Trump, but you realize like he's great at just like sucking the air out of the room and like acquiring the energy, like you can learn from that.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:21:56Speaker 03

  Mom Donnie is amazing as a digital communications, you know, kind of expert, whatever. And I think our smartest friends, that's what they do really well is they pick these things from all these different people and they just like put them together.

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:07Speaker 03

  And they become better themselves.

• 1:22:08Speaker 02

  I think one thing I feel very fortunate is that like, I, I met a lot of these people and I think you just realize they're also just people too. Right? Like, I, I think everyone makes a caricature of like these political figures. And I think that I'm sure you, we could have like a really great conversation with Mom Donnie just says, you could have a really great conversation with the president. It's just like, I think they all are pretty rational, pretty reasonable. Like they all have their incentives and goals of what they want to do, right? Like, I think rent control seems idiotic, like doesn't make any economic sense. But I don't know, if he needs to placate like the union and this and that, and like you need to do some dog trades, right? Like, as a businessman, I get it, right? Like how many deals where you got, okay, like gotta give up on this clause, but I need this clause, right? So I think

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  a political negotiation to me just sounds like a business negotiation. And it's like,

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  that's where I think electing like good people that are smart and have similar values is really important because like you cannot micro with all the information that they have, right? They, I think there's always gonna be trade offs. So the best you can do, like hopefully like you just have some good people in there that like, aren't gonna like grift too hard and not gonna scam too hard and just try to kind of do what they're said they're gonna do.

• 1:23:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. Speaking of like the government and everything, obviously the Bitcoiners, they're just like, I'm just gonna opt out of all this shit. What, what do you think about Bitcoin recently? That's how I feel.

• 1:23:32Speaker 02

  I mean, I know we've been OG, I, I got my first Bitcoin in 2013. So I've been holding and it was in cold wallet for a long time. So I just like couldn't even like touch it because I just literally wrote down a piece of paper. I just like buried it somewhere because I just didn't want to think about it.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think, obviously the price action is not very exciting right now.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  I think a lot of where like the risk capital has gone is to AI and things that just have a little more yield and productivity and a little bit more of a narrative.

• 1:24:06Speaker 03

  And better returns. Yeah, like, like the whole thing is like, everyone's always like, oh yeah, the, the, the story is better like. Just so we're clear, if you bought Bitcoin a year ago versus bought AI, like they're very different outcomes.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I guess like,

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  I've been thinking about trimming my Bitcoin, I'll just be blunt. Cause I guess it's like, if governments blow up or requires,

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  you know, like a, like a sovereign like currency, we're in a pretty fucked up world. Like the rest of my life is probably fucked up if the US, US government like fails or the US dollar gets blown up.

• 1:24:52Speaker 02

  So I'm, I'm not sure what it hedges against, right? Like, like what universe would be that like all my AI stuff and all my US stuff is like bad and Bitcoin is like useful? Cause if like all the US stuff is bad, then I probably want bullets, water, land, like just actual like survivable stuff.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think this, like similar to like ETH, I mean, I guess like in terms of just crypto stuff, I've rotated a lot towards hyper liquid because I understand the use case. Like I understand like people like trading, people like perps, people like getting leverage and like, I understand that like they take a break and they buy back the token. So there's like an economic story that makes a little bit more sense. Versus just like, hey, this is like first digital gold and it's like a store of value.

• 1:25:41Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, I think like, like, I think there's some value of like provenance, like I still kind of like my crypto punk. Like I still kind of like some of the stuff that we all dipped into in 2021, 22.

• 1:25:57Speaker 02

  But I think it might be more like art pieces or like historical store of value type assets versus like, hey, this is like super productive.

• 1:26:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. So like, I think it's like, I might like, just personally, I, I think I'm thinking about trimming a little bit, but like, I think having some is not bad.

• 1:26:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:15Speaker 02

  But like, I don't know if like you want to go like 80, 95% net worth Bitcoin right now, right?

• 1:26:20Speaker 03

  A hundred percent. And, and I actually think people underestimate how many folks were doing that, right? I mean, I remember 2018, 2019, I was just like, every dollar I could find, I, you know, I gotta pick up a dollar on the sidewalk, I'll buy more Bitcoin.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:34Speaker 03

  And now, um, I still buy some every now and then, obviously we've got a public company that bought some, right? Whatever. But like,

• 1:26:42Speaker 03

  it is not the like, press the gas, this is the only thing to buy. And I think that's actually maybe one of the interesting things, like it's still something that I feel, I fundamentally believe in long term. It's just now there's a number of different things.

• 1:26:54Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:26:54Speaker 03

  And so you're buying all of that stuff.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:58Speaker 03

  So Bitcoin went from a hundred percent to so much smaller.

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. What is the most torque?

• 1:27:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, right? And it just like, yeah, I like, I, I don't like, I don't, I don't know what the short, medium term catalysts are, right? Like I think long term, like having a stateless currency and a store of value seems good. But like, what's gonna make me more money faster right now?

• 1:27:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's pretty interesting.

• 1:27:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:21Speaker 03

  Where can we send people to find about anti-fund?

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  Or anti-fun on all the social media or website, anti-fun.com. Jeff Wu, my personal stuff.

• 1:27:31Speaker 03

  What are you looking for in terms of anyone who's building a business that's watching this?

• 1:27:37Speaker 02

  I, I, I like just talking to people that I can learn from. So I think I'm pretty smart. So like, hopefully you're.

• 1:27:47Speaker 03

  I think you're very smart.

• 1:27:48Speaker 02

  I, I don't want to be too arrogant, but like, yeah, just, I, I like, if I could just talk to world experts every single day for like back to back, that would be super awesome. So I think a lot of it is like serendipity, talking to a lot of people, but like hopefully just qualify for just higher quality conversations.

• 1:28:03Speaker 03

  I think one of the things that's really interesting is like you, Jake, Logan, all have obviously very different but related expertise in these different markets. But that may be the one thing that you guys all like have a huge overlap on is you're very curious.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:18Speaker 03

  Right? And

• 1:28:21Speaker 03

  what, maybe 2019, 2020, I remember having dinner with Jake.

• 1:28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Speaker 03

  And my biggest takeaway walking away was like, how curious.

• 1:28:27Speaker 02

  From Puerto Rico, right?

• 1:28:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:28Speaker 02

  And it's raining, I remember that was a fun dinner.

• 1:28:30Speaker 03

  And I just remember being like, he's so genuinely curious.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:34Speaker 03

  Which was so counter to like the public narrative. And I was like, you just can't fake that. But you don't like go to a dinner and be like, I'm gonna be curious today, right? Here's just like, you know, that's you or not.

• 1:28:46Speaker 03

  I'm asking a lot of good questions, right? Like, no. And the, uh, the other time that I saw this from somebody who I don't think people would expect was Saquon Barkley.

• 1:28:55Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:28:55Speaker 03

  And I remember I went to dinner and he was just, and not like, uh, asking like stupid questions that you're just like, you're obviously not listening and paying attention. It's like, okay, so I got a new piece of information I didn't have before. Now I have this new question, like, well, what about this? Or how do I think about this? Or yo, I saw this thing, whatever. And I just like really respect that, I think. And you have this, I think Jake, Logan, right? And so it's like, when you put those people together and then you supercharge it with all the individual expertise, it's like, it's pretty special.

• 1:29:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's a lot of fun. Yeah, I, I think you touched upon it really well. I think the curious people just end up doing the more curious activities and then you have a curious story, right? Like it goes back to like, like, like, like, like an axiom for myself, right? Just like have, live, do more weird stuff. So then you will bump into more weird people. And I think all the interestingness, all the alpha is just at the weird edges of, of, of like the frontiers of what humans are even exploring. So you just, again, like, it's okay to be in the middle of the herd and have like a comfortable, normal, quote unquote, normal life. But if you want to have something just a little bit more extraordinary, you gotta just be at the frontiers, take a little bit more risk. So yeah, like I think

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  it, our, I think our, the anti-fund brand speaks to that. I think the Jake brand, the Logan brand speaks to that, right? Like they're pretty maverick and rebellious in terms of how they've done and carried themselves and grown their brands and careers. And it's like, those are the types of people that we want to affiliate and associate with.

• 1:30:21Speaker 03

  Don't be boring.

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 1:30:23Speaker 03

  Thanks for doing this, do it again in the future.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is great.