Danny Kim, Head of Growth at SFOX: The Technology Behind Cryptocurrency Trade Execution

Danny Kim is the Head of Growth at SFOX. In this conversation, Daniel and Anthony Pompliano discuss what liquidity in crypto markets looks like, how best trade execution technology works, and how operations at a place like SFOX is actually executed. -----If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworksgroup.io

• 0:01Speaker 00

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to Off the Chain, simply the best podcast in crypto. Let's kick this thing off.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Danny Kim is the Head of Growth at SFOX. In this conversation, we discuss what liquidity in crypto markets looks like, how best trade execution technology works, and how operations at a place like SFOX is actually executed. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do as well.

• 0:36Speaker 00

  Anthony Pompliano is a Partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Alright guys, bang, bang. I've got Danny here with me. I'm super excited about this episode because Danny and the team over at SFOX have been really working on the ground for four or five years now. They've relaxed the theoretical, intellectual Olympics and much more into just here's what's been going on, here's what we've been doing, here's what works and here's what doesn't. So excited about the convo and I appreciate you joining, Danny.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me, Pomp.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  For sure. Let's get started with your background. What you were doing pre-crypto or Bitcoin stuff and then maybe get into how you eventually discovered and got hooked.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. So after I graduated back in 2007, I went straight into banking. Like most folks, people were going in for the money, banking was secure, or as far as they say. And then that's when the financial crisis hit, right? I was more on the operational side, back like middle office, handling trade, trade reconciliation and so forth. And to be honest, like that just... Bore the hell out of me. It's a cycle, right? You're doing same things every day and every day. Um, and so while I was doing that, um, I was actually, you know, working on a startup. We was like an e-commerce site and that just kind of always kept me, piqued my interest. I was always kind of involved with, with learning more about what was going on in the tech, like the fintech or tech industry, like following Wired or looking at TechCrunch back in the day.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Um, and then while I was working on the startup, uh, which is called, um, what do they call it? StyleDig. Um, you know, the biggest pain point with the e-commerce site was that when I was talking to potential customers or vendors was that it was payment processing, right? Like for fashion designers, um, if they were to sell a good, there'd be a chargeback. And in the event that when this chargeback happens, especially with credit cards, ACH, the merchant loses the item. Um, and then they also have to pay back, uh, the credit card company or the bank. Um, so it's a double loss. Um, to, to, from my background, that didn't make any sense. So I just kept looking more and more into it. And then one day, uh, this was back in, I think around like two thousand ten or eleven, uh, there was a article in Wired, um,

• 3:06Speaker 02

  about Bitcoin. I think it was like the, the rise and fall of when it went from about like thirteen cents to like eighteen, like eighteen dollars and dropped. Um, and then I started reading more into that and that's really piqued my interest a lot. And I started diving into more into that. And then it actually turned out that one of my buddies, um, my friend Bobby, uh, who just recently resigned from Cumberland, uh, started, you know, um, was actually doing OTC trading at Second Market, now Genesis. Um, and we were in Vegas one day. We were just talking about crypto. I was telling him, like, you know, I was like looking at the Bitcoin. He was there. He was talking about like, you know, he was at Second Market, what he was doing. And so I just kept nagging him about that.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  And then it turned out that, you know, a couple of months later, he was leaving Second Market to go to Itbit, now known as, uh, Paxos. And he was like, look, like, you know, we're, we're, we are, uh, moving headquarters from Singapore to the US. We need some, you know, people who have like banking backgrounds, operationally and so forth. Like, are you interested? Um, and he told me that I was like, immediate. I was like, yes, definitely interested. Send me the resume. Uh, sorry, not the resume, the uh, jobs, the job spec. And funny thing was like, and he sent to me, it was on like a Craigslist ad. Immediately thought I was skep- like I was immediately skeptical because I was like, what kind of company sends out a job ad in a Craigslist, right? Uh, this is special, this especially when it was around like, you know, two thousand and thirteen, fourteen.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  I look at it, I'm like, you know what, look, I'll uh, I'll, I'll, I'll take the job. Without even interviewing with anybody, go to my boss. I tell him like, look, at the bank, I'm like, I'm quitting, I'm leaving. Um, I'm joining this thing called Bitcoin. I love it, um, and I think it's the future. Without even realizing I had a job, right? Um, and in retrospect, now I'm thinking about it like, damn, I probably, I probably should have, uh, you know, probably confirmed I had a job now, uh, confirmed if I had a job yet or not. Uh, but anyway, I went into it, um, got the job at IPBIT, managed the operations. Um, and then from there, you know, I was with them for two years, going from, you know, heading up their operations to becoming the Director of Client Services and Sales.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Um, and then all those two years, they started pivoting over to more of the uh, blockchain side of projects with their investors. And so while they were pivoting, I looked at other opportunities, which was around like two thousand sixteen, two thousand seventeen. And Gemini was available, um, and so I moved over to Gemini as the Head of Sales. Um, and you know, couple, for a couple of months, kind of saw, after speaking with all the institutions or quote unquote institutions, early adopters, I know sophisticated traders getting involved in crypto. Um, you know, one thing I kind of saw was, you know, people kept saying regulation at the time was the one blocking everything. But then I kind of saw that it was actually like infrastructure. Um, and so when I was looking at what's actually available, what's actually going to help people adopt crypto?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  And I came across S-Box, they were one of my first clients, um, that I adopted when I was in, um, IPBIT around like two thousand fifteen. So I left Gemini and spoke to the co-founders at S-Box, um, at, um, Akbar and George. And I was like, look, like, I love what you guys are doing, this is kind of where the market is going. Um, and that's where I, that's where I am today.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Got it. And so when, when you first started, uh, in, in the crypto side with IPBIT, what was the biggest difference you saw in operations from legacy Wall Street finance organizations in the, in the Bitcoin crypto world?

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you know, the biggest thing, um, honestly, it was reconciliation. Um, and keep in mind, like, you know, if IP it, you know, this was a, this was a startup. You were trying to reconcile daily of incoming deposits from, you know, the blockchain. Um, and not, you know, and then there's nothing to reconcile against like a wire deposit or a record, right? And so that's such a huge different mechanism because you can't use spreadsheets. You can't use what's available, you know, in the public market because everything was set and used in, um, you know, for wire transfer or something else. So for us, it was the biggest difference was, you know, trying to figure out like, how do you reconcile it? Like, what do you do operationally to make sure that as an exchange, um, you know, everything is being done correctly?

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Um, and so what was really cool about IP it was that they want, like, we've learned everything in the past and like the issues we occurred in banking, um, operationally back in the day, right? So we want to take all of that, all those processes and transfer that into IP, into the exchange to make sure that as a financial product or potential financial product, um, there's going to be that very similar reconciliation or that control. Um, so it's trying to, trying to figure out how do we adopt those types of similar controls? So that it kind of meets what eventual regulators or auditors would want to see.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Got it. And so as you move into the SFOC role, maybe describe first, what exactly is SFOC? What are you guys trying to build?

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, um, what we've actually built is a, an electronic prime dealer.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  To give you a better or more easier explanation, um, say you are a high know worth individual, a business, a fund. Um, we're very similar to a interactive brokers for crypto. Um, if you are a retail, you know, individual investor, um, we're like a kayak, uh, for crypto. Um, basically, ultimately what that means is we provide a platform, um, that's most, you know, that provides you the most efficient and competitive way to buy and sell crypto. Um, in order to do this, what we do is we, you know, Providing executable aggregated order book. Um, we avoid you having to have, oh, having need to open account at every single exchange and have a wallet and try to manage that.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Um, we aggregate all of that so that in one single platform, you see the best available, most competitive um, public rate on all the exchanges into one platform and then you're able to execute across it. Um, with that, we also give you algorithms so you become a little bit more competitive. For instance, if you're trying to buy a million or two million dollars worth of a Bitcoin, if you do that on a single exchange, there's a lot of hidden costs, there's a slippage. Um, but if you do that across multiple exchanges and add a, say, smart routing or an iceberg order, that gives you a better competitive um, price execution. Um, so what we're doing is ultimately providing a, a seamless gateway to buy and sell crypto, but making it very, very efficient and competitive.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  What, what is an iceberg order?

• 9:20Speaker 02

  So an iceberg order, what that does is, you know, again, like if you're trying to buy, sell a large size, you don't want to place that large size on an order book, especially in the crypto market where you're seeing there's a lot more transparency, you can see someone placing a large order. If someone sees that, someone's going to try to take advantage of it, right? So the best way to do this is to hide that order. What you would do is say, let's say you put a million dollar order, the system will break it out and only show you that you're looking to buy, say, you know, one thousand or two thousand dollars worth. And as that gets filled, you'll start trickling out that order more and more. So that, you know, the open market doesn't really see the full size behind it.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Got it. And, and, and so you mentioned the hidden cost, right? Let, let's kind of attack or uncover the, the problems that most of these uh, institutions or even just large individual traders might not understand about the crypto markets. Um, describe more what those hidden costs are. What are the inefficiencies that maybe exist in uh, trading Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies that you wouldn't expect if you're coming from traditional markets?

• 10:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. Um, man, there's like, there's actually so much. I, I think that the first part is with operations, right? Um, we're still, we're still in the early stages of crypto, I would say. I mean, infrastructure has definitely improved um, since two thousand nine to now, but it's still very early. And when I say infrastructure is still really early is that, you know, every exchange, there's no uniformity across each one. Every exchange has a different API spec. Every exchange has a different reporting spec. Um, they have different fee structures, um, different ways of funding. So when you consider all of that, you know, you, you have to actually hire a team of three to four or five people just to manage that operational aspect, making sure that one, there's a security engineer,

• 11:04Speaker 02

  understanding how each exchange operates, um, what, what the withdrawal process is, deposit process is, and logging credentials. Um, then you have a, a financial person looking to, what are the fees of each exchange? What are the, the volume tier discounts? Um, and then you have, you know, you have your, your, your ops or reconciliation person, looking at audit person, looking at how are, you know, how are reports being, you know, being, um, how, how, excuse me, how are trades being reported? You know, are they showing the, the, the trade execution size? Are they showing the timestamp and so forth? And then you have the engineers that need to integrate with every single unique, um, API code because there's this, there's a separate spec. Now, so that's one aspect of it. And then there's the liquidity. Um, you know,

• 11:47Speaker 02

  there's still not a lot of, there's, it's definitely, liquidity is definitely, um, improved, especially with Bitcoin, Ether today than it was before. Um, but when you're trading on a single exchange, and we've seen this in the past where you've seen major drop offs with like, say, on Coinbase or Kraken or so forth, is that, you know, a, a trader may accidentally place a, a large size order or a large size market order, and that may just eat up through, straight through the, um, the order book. Ultimately, at the end of the day, your net effective price just gets killed because, you know, although the top of the price, that, that spot price at the market may, may have shown ten thousand. If you're trying to execute a million dollar trade, that might have gone through so

• 12:26Speaker 02

  multiple different levels um that ultimately cost your your your trade execution to be on average around like six thousand or even less. Um. So those are the hidden costs that need that people need to be aware of.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Got it. And and so how do you guys think about solving that problem? Um. And maybe really get into kind of uh from the technical standpoint as much as you can. Uh, you know, the use of different exchanges, breaking up the orders, etc.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. So you know, it's actually it's actually kind of quite interesting. We did like a um an analysis um a couple of weeks back of taking a snapshot of every single exchange on their order book every five minutes. Um. We did this for Coinbase, Ebit, Gemini, and uh Bitrix and a few others, just kind of to see, you know, how much how deep of of how many basis points down you would go on depending on the size, right? Um. And then it actually kind of showed that like, you know, one to five to ten twenty Bitcoins. You'll you'll you'll go down anywhere from, you know, two basis points all the all the way up to like, you know, fifteen basis points even more. So for us to avoid that, what we did was we took every single exchange. We have an account set, you know,

• 13:33Speaker 02

  our own accounts, our own funds at every single exchange. We combined the order books into one. So that when you are executing, you're not executing on one individual exchange. We're placing the orders across and smart routing them across every single one. And it's not a matter of, you know, which exchange we we prefer or we like better. It's all about the size and price that's available and we just combine it. So when you look into, say, our order book, which we're very transparent about, you'll see that every every trade or every exchange is kind of overlapping each other. And in fact, there's actually a a a unrealized a unrealized arbitrage opportunity where because of that that that price difference. Um. And so when we have that merge order book, we're also we're also adding in algorithms um so that it can actively trade on every single exchange.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Um. You know, it's good because if if you traded on one single one, it would impact that order book and cause a a ripple effect. So we're actively just using the algorithms or just actively placing orders on every single exchange, depending on your size, depending on the order type you're using. And that's being executed.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  I see. And then when you think of the obstacles for building out the smart order routing, liquidity, um, and those types of either functionality or benefits of the infrastructure, what's the current challenge, right? So when you go to work every day, you're like, this is the thing that we need to solve in order to keep scaling and really kind of take the business um to a level that makes it more valuable to customers.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the biggest thing like to solve, you know, you know, infrastructure wise, when we're like,

• 15:04Speaker 02

  when there are a lot of trades being done, um, you know, again, like I think exchanges APIs are still trying to improve their their their structure and is making sure that they can handle that frequency. Um, and so, you know, when we're when we're operating on a day basis, you know, we're working closely with all of our partners, you know, if there is a latency issue, we try to speak with them and try to fix that. Um, the other side of it also is, is, you know, when operationally, when we are, you know, trying to help and understand, like explain to our customers of of knowing, you know, how Bitcoin operates, what is Bitcoin, or even generally whatever crypto is, how you secure it, how you send it back and forth. Um, that education process is is is still needed and something that we're actively doing day to day.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  And on the operations side, I think most people understand there's technology at work here, right? But they probably don't realize uh what goes into the operations. Maybe just unveil a little bit how an infrastructure player like S-Box thinks about operations and then what that looks like on a day to day um basis.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, got it. Um, so from that side, you know, we're on from a day to day basis and operationally, we're looking at every single exchange on, you know, how much cash, how much capital we're keeping across. Um, we're also looking at what the, you know, uptick and maintenance time is across every exchange. You know, looking at saying, you know, is are there any status issues with, you know, each exchange with the APIs or with the platform itself, um, and keeping and trying to understand that on a day to day basis. You know, for us, The biggest problem with, you know, with anyone trying to trade on, on, on a, you know, in a non-platform like ours is that you have to actively manage your own accounts on every single exchange. And when you realize, oh, you know, I have all my capital on one exchange A,

• 16:53Speaker 02

  but then you see that the price is a lot better, uh, more competitive on a different exchange. What you have to do is you have to withdraw those funds, um, your Bitcoin or your US dollars, uh, which takes about anywhere from, you know, one hour to four hours, depending on what you're using, um, and then transfer it over to the other platform, um, where you then have to wait for that company to then credit your account. For us, you know, we actively have to make sure that we're maintaining a, a strong balance of all funds, um, while also ma- maintaining and reducing our, you know, our exchange and counterparty risk. So it's, it's really a strong balance of the API, cash management, um,

• 17:31Speaker 02

  looking at, you know, ensuring that all orders are being processed correctly and keeping that, keeping that uptime, um, you know, to what, to what people need.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Where do you see, uh, or, or what do you see from, uh, customer interest, right? A- as you guys are building this out, obviously having been doing this for four or five years now, uh, you've kind of seen the evolution, but today, the customers that are coming in and don't name names necessarily, but just like the types of customers, are we talking about, uh, individual, uh, retail traders, are we talking about crypto funds, uh, family offices, institutions, a mix? Like, what do you see there?

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, good question. So we actually see people across the spectrum. Um, I'll, I'll talk about just, you know, S- Fox, but also, you know, from what I've seen outside as well, with speaking with partners and so forth. Like, you know, with S- Fox and everywhere else, you know, we're seeing interest across from your, your average, you know, your neighbor, John and Jane, sitting like, you know, right across, right across the street to high net worth individuals, to, um, you know, early tech investors or early adopters, um, or even, you know, you could say, like, more adventurous spenders, say like, you know, life enthusiasts or people who are looking at how to improve their self-life and, and self-earnings, uh, who are a little bit more adventurous in spending. Um, and then you see a lot of

• 18:50Speaker 02

  funds and businesses, um, looking to get, get, looking to get exposure to it. Because right now, like with crypto,

• 18:58Speaker 02

  You know, there's still so much, there's still so much to do and so much to see. You know, from a, from an investor's standpoint, there's still a lot of speculation of where the value is going to come, right? And you have, therefore, you have a lot of that individual sophisticated investors looking to, to get a piece of it or to hedge themselves and get that exposure to portfolio. Um, you do have those retail guys as well that we, that we, that we, that we bring in, um, where they hear it from their, their uncle, their uncle or their aunt or their friend saying, you know, Bitcoin is the next big thing and that's going to make them rich. Or that, you know, they actually need it to pay their, their, their relative or friend across country because it's the easiest way. Um, in fact, we actually even see people, um, buying Bitcoin or crypto in order to pay for goods and, and services

• 19:43Speaker 02

  because, um, they'll actually get, receive a discount rather than if they paid with a credit card or debit card. Um, and then we also see businesses who are using Bitcoin where they are using it to, in order to pay their, you know, to pay their international employees. You know, in this day and age, there's a lot of, you know, remote workers. You have, you know, specialized or fantastic engineers across the globe. But in order to pay these people, like using fiat and using USD or, or any, any local currency, it's, it's still a difficult, long process and costly. Um, we're seeing people using it, uh, instead than using Bitcoin because it saves them time and it saves them a lot of cost. Um, so that's, those are kind of individuals and investors that we see today.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Do you see anybody not coming in, like any type of, uh, investor or group that you talk to? They're like, uh, you know, thanks, but no thanks. We're, we're going to sit on the sidelines for now?

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I mean, I, I think like what we've seen and people I've spoken to, it's, it's a lot of the, they're very, very, I would say the larger, like larger institutions, um, or the more conservative funds, just because, not, not, not a matter of because they are, they don't believe in crypto. Um, it's more of the infrastructure still needs development, right? Um, and there still needs to be some clarity on, on what needs to be done in crypto. What like, you know, what is crypto? What is Bitcoin? How will it be regulated? Um, the other side of it also is that, you know, if you are a more conservative fund, you know, you have to change your investment perspectives as well. So there are certain larger, you know, institutions or companies out there who...

• 21:14Speaker 02

  You know, are still look are looking into crypto, as right now, they can't because there's still a lot of ambiguity or no no clear direction on, you know, what the what the regulation or how like, you know, how everything would be managed. And so there's that part. Um, and as well as like, you know, I think infrastructure is still needed, right? I mean, we are still looking into custody and and the FA, like, I think it was, um, what is it? Um, I think the SEC and CFTC came out recently and saying, you know, that they're they're looking at a broker dealer and what's required for custody. Um, and so I think there is still a lot of clarification that's needed in order for these larger businesses or enterprises to come in.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  I see. And and so as you look at some of that guidance from uh from the SEC, is there anything there that you think affects the way that you guys see uh uh the company unfolding in the future or or the market?

• 22:06Speaker 02

  I mean, I think right now, like, every everything that every every I I think every everything that they say, it's always helpful because it's regardless of it's negative or not, it's been helpful because it provides a little bit more clarity and allowing you to, you know, figure out as a business, not only for SFOC, but for anyone really in in the industry, to figure out what they can and can't do, or how they should go and approach it. Uh, because before, what everyone was really doing is, you know, saying, you know, if I want if I want to get a security token, I need to get an ATS, I need to get a broker dealer. But the government really or regulators never really clarified that's exactly what you need, right? So people were just hoping that's the right process. Um, so any any news that, you know, people that the SEC or or the regulators come out

• 22:51Speaker 02

  is better than nothing. Um, I from what we can tell, or at least what I can, what I see is that, you know, um, Bitcoin, Ether is not a security, it's still available, it's going to be used for, you know, many different reasons, um, either speculative or or for a medium of exchange. Um, and

• 23:11Speaker 02

  You know, in terms of security, like in terms of security token and so forth, you know, there is a lot of interest of digitizing, you know, crypto, or sorry, digitizing information that's being done today, which is why the SEC and other regulators are getting so heavily involved, right? Because, you know, in the financial industry, they're a little bit more slow to act unless it's needed or demanded by a lot of people in the mass, right? And I think what we're seeing is that so many people are trying, are getting involved, are so curious, that they're kind of pushing the government regulators to provide a little more information. So I think what we're going to is more of a digital world. We see that, you know, technology's been improving and a lot more investors, a lot more individuals

• 23:54Speaker 02

  are getting more keen on trying to understand, you know, blockchain decentralization, the verification, just pure information. That's kind of like where we're kind of going. So that's what I kind of see right now.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  And so you, look, you've been in Bitcoin and crypto for a while now and you've worked at a couple of different companies. You get kind of various perspectives, experiences. What's been the biggest one or two changes that you've seen in the industry, whether it's market conditions, you know, perspective, or maybe even the types of people that you've worked with? What have those changes been over the last couple of years?

• 24:26Speaker 02

  You know, I think that there's, over the changes, there's been a lot more sophistication coming in, and intelligence. I mean, like, it is, we are seeing smarter and smarter people coming in. People are learning, you know, pretty much dropping everything they're doing and trying to learn as much as possible. And, you know, people are growing in light speeds. I mean, we're seeing, you know, peak kids who just graduated or are still in college just becoming super knowledgeable in this space, when before, you know, it was really a core group of folks. And now this is expanding to a whole mass of individuals. And then now we're also seeing a lot more sophistication of financial firms, like, you know, a lot more sophisticated trading firms getting involved, doing a high-frequency trading.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  And and they're getting more involved with te- different types of trading products like derivatives or like op- like, you know, for instance, futures and options. And we're seeing a lot more sophisticated products being being developed for crypto as speculative speculative product. Um, and you know, that that's two parts of it, the sophistication of of interest and that that growing uh interest in crypto, but as well as the the advancement of of of trading products that are being that are being done um for Bitcoin and and the others.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  What's your uh most bullish outlook on uh Bitcoin and crypto and then what's your most bearish?

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Most most bullish outlook on crypto, um, you know, I could see personally, I'm I'm I'm super, I'm, you know, I'm I'm a bullish guy on this, that I could see Bitcoin being the, you know, it's the store value, the digital gold of the future, um, and I could see it being worth uh a lot more than where it currently is. Um, and this is investment advice, this is my personal view, um, but I could see it as digital gold because if you take a look at this, when you compare it to any other crypto out there, anywhere in the world, people know what Bitcoin is. Anywhere in the world, there is a a an exchange that has Bitcoin as the underlying or with or with a local uh currency.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  And people have, you know, individuals have become a little bit more aware of how to use it and and there's more products uh being built on it. And that's kind of why I see, you know, Bitcoin being that digital gold in the future. Um, bearish, you know, I I s- I see I see that, you know, there's gonna be a lot of, you know, we've seen this with the ICO, we've seen this with a lot of the, you know, the all coins. A lot of that, ninety-five percent of that, I think is, you know, has already been removed and there's probably gonna be a lot more removed after that. Um, and I'd probably say that there's only gonna be a like a handful of of coins really um available that that actually have a use case that will be there and, you know, that there will be a loss with the people who are investing in the other coins.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  I think that's fair. Um, all right. So, uh, I usually end each podcast with a rapid fire set of questions. What, uh, what do you think the most important company in crypto other than S. Fox is?

• 27:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, in terms of, you know, let's say like a single point of failure, I, I would say like, to be honest, I think Coinbase, right? I mean, they have such a huge brand, they have such a huge outreach. If anything negative were to happen to them, like everyone, everyone that buys Bitcoin has heard of Bitcoin. What do they do? They typically go to Coinbase because they have the best brand, strong brand. Um, you know, they've been, they've been a leader in a lot of things. And so something negative would happen to Bitcoin, that would be a huge setback, which is why I think that, you know, they are a, a, a firm that that's extremely important within the space.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  What do you think is the one regulation that you would change or improve if you could?

• 28:05Speaker 02

  I don't know, to be honest. I, I, that's something, that's something, that's something more I gotta, I gotta think more about. Um, you know, for me, it's, I, I frankly, I, I just, I just want, I just want to see a little bit more clarity. I just want to see more clarity on exactly who's, who's going to be regulating, like who should be reg, like should one, should Bitcoin be regulated, should Bitcoin be regulated by a governing body or should it be like a self-regulated organization? My thing, my thinking is that, you know, there should be a self-regulated, an SRO, right? Because Bitcoins, Bitcoin crypto is a whole separate animal. Um, it's something that requires a lot of education and a lot of sophistication that, that, that people have experience with.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Um, and it's, it's, you know, it's a decentralized system that needs to be a self-regulated body. Um, and that's kind of where I stand.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  What do you think your most controversial thought in Bitcoin or crypto is? If you said it, most amount of people would disagree with you.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, look, I, I, I think a lot, there's always been an argument of is Bitcoin a medium of exchange? Or is it store of value, right? Quite frankly, or like, you know, is there even a use case for it? Frankly, I believe that Bitcoin is all of it, right? It's, it's both a store of value and a medium of exchange. The great thing about Bitcoin is that for us, you know, in the U. S. We may see it as speculative product. But somewhere in the world, somewhere in like say in the merchant market or somewhere else, it's being used for something else that we don't, we may not even be aware of. And that's kind of the beauty of Bitcoin, not only Bitcoin, but just crypto itself. Because there's a use case for it, and people are being used that we may not be aware of, and it can be used any way that we want. And so, that's, that's, that's, that's my view.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  And I, I think that, I think people push a little too hard saying Bitcoin is this, or this is a specific use case. It's, it's a use case to how you would want to use it. It, it can be used for any single way that you need, that it needs to be used for. Um, that's the beauty of it. It's the fact that it can be spent, controlled any way. You can use it as store value, you can use it as a payment. Um, I don't think there's gonna be one specific use case for Bitcoin. It's, it's just gonna be an overall, you know, expanding thing for anybody and everybody.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  For sure. What, uh, what's the most important book you've ever read?

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Most important book? Um, it's actually, uh, The Dalai Lama, Art of Happiness. I read, I read this back in, um, in, in high school. I was going through my teenage angst. I was so angry, you know, like, I'd go after like everybody, like get into fights and everything. And I actually don't know how I came across it. Maybe I was going through a troubling time or something. Um, and, and I, I started reading it, I, I kinda just got, I just, like, I, I think that was actually one of my first books I fully finished. And sadly, I could sadly say that I fully finished when I was that young. Um, where I come, I read it from, you know, front to back. And it really honestly changed me, because after reading that book,

• 30:56Speaker 02

  I had a whole new outlook in life in terms of, you know, like how do I maintain happiness? Like, who do I, what do I care about? What's actually important? And it really just changed my whole like aura, to be honest.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  I love it, man. It, it's, uh, I always say a good book is just as much about what's in the book as when you read it, right?

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Right, exactly.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  All right, before I let you ask me a question to, uh, to finish up, I always talk about aliens. Uh, you a believer, non-believer?

• 31:21Speaker 02

  You know, I, I really do believe there are like, so, aliens are anything that's non, like, not human or outside of this, this world, right?

• 31:31Speaker 01

  That's all I do.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Um, I, I- And you know, I think that definitely, there definitely is. What I think though, this is even crazier. Um, like, you know, there's definitely aliens out there, one hundred percent, I believe. But there's also like, we haven't even explored. We've only explored about like, I think, what's it like, five or six percent of our, of our own water. Or of our own globe, right? And so that water, there's probably even aliens down there too. Um, I think that there are other species, other animals or creatures that we've never even seen or heard. Not only in, in our own waters locally, but in like, you know, in the universe that. You know, unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever be able to see because the universe is ever expanding.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Um, we probably, you know, there's something, there's probably something there, but I, I unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever come across it in our lifetime.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  I think that's, uh, that's my always, my big question is after you get to, uh, do aliens exist or not? Then it's will we ever discover them or come in contact? So, uh, we'll, uh, we'll see there. What, um, what one question you have for me to, uh, to wrap it up?

• 32:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, all right. So I, I like to get a little personal with a lot of people when I, when I speak with them. Um, so. Let me see, um, you know, if, if you look back, um, what's the one thing you missed in your childhood? Like from now to like, when you look back, like, you know, saying what, what you've missed, like, what's that one thing?

• 32:51Speaker 01

  So I grew up with, uh, four younger brothers and, uh, and we were wild, man. We used to do some wild shit, to be completely honest. And, uh, it's one of these things where like, I remember like the summer times, uh, when we were all out of school. Where you just wake up, it is like, what can we, you know, screw up today? What, what trouble can we get into? What chaos can we cause? Uh, and it was never like really bad stuff, but it was just, you know, whatever like young boys could figure out to do that is fun. That their parents probably don't want them doing, uh, we did, we did it pretty much like every day. Uh, and so there's definitely, uh, you know, look, part of it is like, that stuff isn't as, uh, entertaining as it once was.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  But, but if I think back to, uh, you know, a bunch of different childhood memories, that's probably one of them where it's just like me and my brothers roaming around just. Frankly, doing nothing while doing everything all at once.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  That's funny. Yeah, no, I, I, I, like, that kind of, it's kind of like the same thing for me. It's like, back in the day, like with you and your brothers, you probably had like, there was no worries. It was just pure joy and happiness, right? You guys were just looking at how to explore, how to, how to like, how either like, how to get like in trouble or find out what, you know, what's in getting in trouble? Or just try something different, I imagine, right? Right? Right, like for me, it's it's kind of like the same way. Like I I grew up in the outskirts of the city around like Jackson Heights, Queens. And like our day to day of me and my brothers and like people within neighborhood, we would just travel around all across cities on on foot or rollerblades, get into trouble, trying to see, you know, what else is new out there. You know, back in the day, you didn't you didn't have Uber or anything, right? Like what you had to do is actually

• 34:26Speaker 02

  run bike or or travel and like, you know, see what's actually across that that next city because your parents wouldn't drop you off. Um, and that was like that that pure joy of fun because it was, you know, it was natural, it was genuine.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it it's a it's one of these things where like, um, the curiosity takes over, right? And uh, and and once you find something new, you know, some of the stuff you like, some of the stuff you don't like, and you can start building out habits and all that kind of stuff. So, uh, look, it's, um, I I tell folks all the time that the one thing I'm super grateful for was growing up, uh, very early on, I think, uh, all of my brothers and I, uh, discovered that, um, life is just, uh, more enjoyable when you're having fun, right? And you're kind of joking around and laughing, et cetera. And so thankfully, we all, uh, continue to try to do that today, but but I really do think a lot of those memories, um, kind of, you know, formed that, uh, that perspective on life.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, it is. I mean, couldn't you say it's also kind of like how, uh, at least for me, that's kind of what kind of also drew me into crypto as well. Like, I I think one of the things that I really loved about in the early days was that the crypto community, everyone was doing it out of pure joy. Like people weren't really getting paid of it. It was more of, you know, everyone was so collaborative, like everyone wanted to try to figure out, you know, how like, you know, whatever business you were doing, how how we could help out and build that community. Um, and it was just that that natural enjoyment of trying to build this future. Right? Like you you imagine like, you know, back like in two thousand eleven, two thousand twelve, where, you know, this even earlier, people just had this idea and then, you know, no one was getting paid, but people were just collectively coming in. You saw this like family grow even larger and larger, uh, and that's kind of like where we are today, right?

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Like everyone that's involved loves it so much that they're just like, you know, jumping ship or just trying to focus on this.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I tell people all the time that Bitcoin, I think, is a great example of there was pent up energy, right? Both that was negative towards legacy system and it was positive towards a desire for a new option or a new system. And with the advent of Bitcoin and blockchain technology, it just unleashed what was already there, right? And that's part of the beauty of it.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Kara, I hear that, man. I agree.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  All right, man. Listen, I really appreciate you doing this. I think what you guys are doing at SFOX is awesome. And we'll have to check in again later as we kind of get into this bull market that's coming and see how things are going.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me, man.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Hey, everyone. Pop here. If you liked this episode of Off the Chain and want to help us take crypto to the top of the apple, Spotify and other podcast charts, please do us a favor and rate, review and subscribe. To review, simply go to the Off the Chain homepage, scroll down until you see the five blank stars. Taking 15 seconds to fill those stars in and leave a quick review goes a long way in helping us take the entire crypto ecosystem to the top of the charts. I appreciate you listening and see you next time on Off the Chain.