Camila Russo, Author and Former Bloomberg Reporter: How Traditional Journalists View Crypto

Camila Russo is an author and a former Bloomberg News reporter. In this conversation, Camila and Anthony Pompliano discuss how she discovered Bitcoin while covering the Argentina's financial markets, why crypto has captured her interest, how traditional journalists view crypto and Bitcoin today, why she is writing the book on Ethereum, and what stories she has learned along the way. ----- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at:https://www.blockworksgroup.io

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to Off the Chain, simply the best podcast in crypto. Let's kick this thing off.

• 0:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Camila Russo is a former Bloomberg journalist and currently writing a book on Ethereum with Harper Collins. In this conversation, we discuss how she discovered Bitcoin while covering the Argentine financial markets, why crypto has captured her interest, how traditional journalists view Bitcoin and crypto today, why she is writing the book on Ethereum, and what stories she has learned along the way. I really enjoyed this conversation and found Camilla to be incredibly engaging. I hope you enjoy it as well. Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion

• 0:56Anthony Pompliano?

  expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Alright guys, bang bang. I am here with Camilla. Thank you so much for doing this.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:15Anthony Pompliano?

  I feel like you are one of the foremost experts on Ethereum now, that you've done all this work to write a book. Before we get into all that though, maybe let's just talk about your background and how you got to writing the word of record on Ethereum.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Where were you born and how did you end up at Bloomberg first?

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'm Chilean. I was born in Santiago. I spent most of my childhood in Chile, but I also lived in Miami for a couple of years when I was growing up, then went back to the States to do a masters in journalism at Chicago in Northwestern. And from there is when I got interested in business journalism. Went to the internship at Bloomberg in New York, got hired. From there, they sent me to Argentina. I spent uh four and a half years living in Buenos Aires. I think, yeah, it was like one of the best times of my life.

• 2:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, you liked it?

• 2:17Speaker 01

  I loved it.

• 2:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Such a fun city. Um, and it was also amazing professionally. I, you know, I was covering Argentine markets, mostly bonds and FX. Um, and it was during, you know, a time when Argentina was going through, um, you know, really high inflation, currency controls, a default, uh, you know.

• 2:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Bad shit.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Company nationalizations. This was in Cristina Fernandez's second term. Um, and that's when I wrote about Bitcoin for the first time in twenty thirteen. Um, I saw how people were using it to protect against inflation. Um, they were using it to skirt currency controls. I thought that was super interesting. And.

• 3:02Anthony Pompliano?

  And how do you, so like, you're the first person at Bloomberg to ever write about Bitcoin, uh, right?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, at least in, you know, in like Latin America. I thi- I think th- there had been like Bitcoin stories.

• 3:18Anthony Pompliano?

  You're like very early.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  I was very early. Like, I, I, I remember pitching the story. My editors had never heard about Bitcoin before. Like, I had really, yeah, I had to really pitch really hard on the story. Uh, convince, convince them it was a real thing. Uh, to them, it was just like me talking crazy, like, what's this internet money thing?

• 3:36Anthony Pompliano?

  You were doing that in two thousand thirteen? We're still doing that in two thousand nineteen, trying to convince people it's real. Alright, and so like, how did you hear about Bitcoin? Does like a source tell you about it? Do you go and interview somebody and they're like, oh, by the way, like, we're doing this thing? Like, how did you first come across?

• 3:52Speaker 01

  No, it was actually, um, an Argentine, uh, colleague who had left. I think he read, he read it somewhere, you know, or, or, or like heard about a meetup, because he, he's Argentine, so he like heard about a meetup. Um, that was happening Buenos Aires, like people who were like, were there to learn about Bitcoin. So he's like, oh, look, look at this, like, maybe you should go to this meetup thing. Um, yeah, and I, I did, I went and there was like, there was a lot of activity, uh. Around Bitcoin back then in Argentina and and even even more so now.

• 4:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, absolutely. And so uh you write the article and like what was the reaction when you first wrote about Bitcoin? Was it, did people write in and they're like, you know, shut up, this is stupid, like stop writing about it? Are they intrigued? Does nobody notice? Like what was that reaction?

• 4:40Speaker 01

  No, I remember I got a really, you know, good reception, like good readership. Um, I think back then, twenty thirteen, um, yeah, Bitcoin had just gone through through a bubble. Um, but it wasn't as crazy as twenty seventeen. And it was just for Bloomberg readers, it was more of like a curiosity. I think I got like much like bigger um like reactions when when I was writing about it in twenty seventeen. You know, Bloomberg readers being like, why are you writing about this like Beanie Baby money? People got really mad at me. Um, I I said this at the time, but I I never had such visceral reactions to to stories.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  But because it it wasn't just like people disagreeing on what what I was writing about, it it it felt like they were personally threatened by it, you know? Um, because the reaction was very emotional, it wasn't it wasn't so like rational, like they weren't looking at it from an investment perspective. It was like, you're writing about something that's like threatening me.

• 5:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. And and so I guess as you're writing about this, um, Argentina uh was going through huge problems, right? I mean, a- across the board, uh, still today facing a lot of challenges. Um, did you get the sense that people thought this was gonna be as big as it is today, like it was gonna become this huge thing, or was it more just, oh, there's this interesting, you know, digital currency that we can use to solve our problems today, but maybe it's a thing, maybe it's not, but you know, but there wasn't really like the belief it was gonna become massive?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  I think for for people in in places like Argentina where

• 6:23Speaker 01

  You know, there's just like this ingrained mistrust in the financial system. And you like, you really get that, wha- what happens when you don't trust your, your own currency.

• 6:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Uh, what happens when you know that the only way your currency is going is down. And that uh, your government can one day just stop you from, from doing whatever you want with, with your money. Like, and it happened to me because I was, I was earning, my salary was in Argentine pesos. And the first thing my colleagues told me when I go to Argentina was, you have to buy dollars as soon as you get your, your pesos. So I was doing that until one day Christina Fernandez said, there are no more dollar purchases allowed. And literally went to the, my bank website. Um, to like my account and the option to like buy dollars in like to, to change dollars to my dollar account wasn't there anymore.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  It was just that simple. So like I saw it and so people.

• 7:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Because you had an Argentinian bank account, right? Cause you're getting paid.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  I was getting paid in Argentina and like Argentine pesos.

• 7:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  So like as soon as I got.

• 7:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, cause you needed it while you were living there, right? That's the, okay, got it. Yep.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  So yeah, so I mean, people, people in Argentina or places like it, when they hear about Bitcoin, they instantly get it. Like it's not, it's not like here where you really need to convince people, you know, this is actually a positive thing to have. Like this parallel financial system where you don't need to ask permission. In Argentina, they, they get it. So I think that.

• 7:55Anthony Pompliano?

  They get excited.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, they get excited. And, and I think like your, your question was that were people thinking it was gonna be a big deal? And I think, yes, people using it in Argentina back then, because they got it, they knew it was gonna be big.

• 8:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm-hmm. And what's your take on, I, I, I, I don't know off the top of my head what the inflation has looked like. But there's been pretty volatile swings in the currency, right? Um, and I think larger volatile swings than Bitcoin. So even though Bitcoin is volatile, having Argentinian pesos actually, uh, at times has been much more volatile than Bitcoin. Right? So it's, it's almost like in the US compared to the US dollar, you know, people are freaking out when it drops. Ten percent, let alone, you know, fifty, eighty percent. In other countries, that actually isn't a small drop compared to the inflation that they uh that they see um that drives their purchasing power.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, in in Argentina, I think right now inflation is at fifty percent. Annual, so it's crazy.

• 8:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Annualized inflation at fifty percent.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Fifty percent. Um when I was there was twenty five. Um the peso, I think, the last time I I haven't I haven't checked in a while, but I remember doing a chart at Bloomberg once. Um and I think, yes, the volatility was comparable to to Bitcoin. Um and it really depends on the timeline you look at, because I think in in twenty eighteen, you would have been better off holding Argentine pesos than holding Bitcoin.

• 9:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  But, for example, I don't know, I've interviewed uh people for from my book who bought um Bitcoin in twenty thirteen. And they said, you know, whatever happens to to this like weird uh money, um to to Bitcoin, I know it's gonna do better than than the peso. And it has.

• 9:42Anthony Pompliano?

  I know the peso is gonna either do twenty five or more inflation.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. I mean, look, even just, uh, we're recording this right now in uh in um May of two thousand and nineteen. And Bitcoin's up over a hundred percent on the year, right? So you can imagine that compared to fifty percent inflation, um is is a pretty drastic change, right?

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:02Anthony Pompliano?

  So, all right, so you're in, you're uh writing in uh Argentina, and then you end up leaving.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Yes. Um so I asked to get transferred to Madrid.

• 10:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Um I just ne- needed a change. It was just, you know, getting to be the same story over and over again in Argentina. Um and I just wanted.

• 10:22Anthony Pompliano?

  It's just shit's bad, stay away.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. Um yeah, I just wanted to try other things too. Um so I was living in Madrid. Uh life there was was amazing, really loved Europe. But um it wasn't as exciting a new story. I was writing about European stocks. Um so after Argentina, that seemed pretty boring. Um, so, uh, you know, as I was like thinking about leaving, uh, there was a kind of restructuring of the market scene at Bloomberg, where they created this new team, um, that was leading a live markets blog in New York. And so I was invited to join this, this new team.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  And so moved here in Mar- uh, March of twenty seventeen.

• 11:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so, so you moved here in March twenty seventeen and really you're focused on, uh, kind of global markets?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, macro markets.

• 11:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so, so macro markets. And that just happens to be right when the fun starts in crypto.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 11:22Anthony Pompliano?

  With, uh, with, with kind of the bull run, or really, it's really the tail end of the bull run, right? Because it had started before that, but, but I think when a lot of retail kind of rushed in and we saw the, the significant price appreciation was kind of May of two thousand seventeen through the end of the year, right?

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Um, and so, like, what was going on inside Bloomberg when, you know, every day it seemed like there's just these assets that are, you know, going up and to the right, nonstop for months at a time? And then also, you know, there's announcement after announcement after announcement of people raising, you know, tens, hundreds of millions of dollars for these ICOs. Like, what's happening in the meetings at Bloomberg? Are people like, this is all a joke? Like, what do they say?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Um, okay, so, I think, like, at, at the blog, I started writing, uh, because it, it was, it was good to have, I, I had flexibility to write about whatever I thought was interesting, you know, going on, uh, in the market, um, at the moment. So I, I had kept my interest in Bitcoin since Argentina, and so I started writing. At, at that time, um, there was a lot of talk about the Bitcoin ETF with the, uh, Winklevoss, uh, brother. So I started writing about that, you know, that was like more tied to the Bloomberg Guardians and ETF. So I started with that, but then I also started writing about ICOs. And there was just more and more interest from, from the Bloomberg Guardians to know about, uh, crypto and, you know, any,

• 12:53Speaker 01

  um, story with Bitcoin on the headline would get tons of hits. So, I mean, I, I think in the end, you know, editors will, will look at that and, and. And increased coverage when when there's more interest.

• 13:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, and and interest comes from not only the people who like it, but also the people who hate it.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Right, like that's how you get all the the kind of hate mail.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so my my editor saw this and said, you know what, like, we we need more coverage for regular Bloomberg News, not just the blog. So I started, uh, you know, just covering crypto as like my my side job, which, you know, quickly. It took over my my main job. Um, and so the the the sentiment at Bloomberg was like. Yeah, like, we need to cover it. There's there's tons of interest, but they were still like very careful with. Um, how how deeply they wanted to dive in in crypto because, you know, it was. It's still and it still is um, a very volatile asset.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  We're we're not sure like where regulation is going and and Bloomberg's red and barter is is Wall Street. It's, you know, like, big markets, regulated securities. Um, so. Yeah, I think that that was kind of the the balancing up that that I saw Bloomberg at the time, like, okay, there's huge interest. It's driving headlines, but you know, like, how seriously are we going to take this uh, market?

• 14:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. And so I guess as part of this is the. Interest at the time, so two thousand seventeen, the the ICOs really were. Hot topic number one, Bitcoin hot topic number two. And then I don't really remember there being interest in kind of the details, right? It was like, it just felt like. Oh, this ICO fundraising mechanism is really interesting, and then the Bitcoin price is just going through the roof, right? Was there interest from like the classic Wall Street folks? Was it? Crypto people migrating over to Bloomberg? Like, did you get a sense of like who in the audience was interested? Or was it just, hey, we just know that the numbers keep, you know, every time we publish Bitcoin articles, they just, you know, get distribution. We don't really know who's on the other end.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  No, I think it was pretty clear it was existing Bloomberg subscribers. So it was a Wall Street audience that was interested.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  You know, they, there was a lot of demand for more data in the terminal for crypto. I mean, Bloomberg had a Bitcoin index and Ether index. And there were always like requests to have more coins in the system and more data about the coins that was, that were there. So definitely, it wasn't just from, from like Bloomberg subscribers, not like new crypto enthusiasts were, you know, buying the terminal.

• 15:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. And so you continue covering through December two thousand seventeen. When, I mean, I've just never seen anything in my life.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Just the, the absolute euphoria and mania that was going on. And you decide, maybe you should go and write a book.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 16:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk about kind of what your thought process there was and why pick what you picked, etc.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you're exactly right. At the end of two thousand seventeen, it was looking back and being like, what just happened? You know, like I had been like deep in this market or new asset class or whatever. And it was just like a whirlwind of information and like hype and excitement. And then at the end of the year, I, I said, this has to be documented that like what just happened is crazy and it's so interesting and exciting. And I had always wanted to, to write a book, but never, you know, found kind of the right topic or that I was, um, like, I was the expert in, in, in something to, to the degree that I needed to be to write.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  But, but in, in crypto, it just felt like everyone was new. Um, and that, you know, anyone could, could own it, you know? Um, and, and so.

• 17:06Anthony Pompliano?

  That's, I'm laughing at myself because, uh, one, that's not true in traditional markets, right? A lot of times, uh, but also outside the United States where, uh, there's a ton of interest. It's not just regulatory barriers, right? It's also just the fact that there's a lot of people internationally that are unbanked, right? Or they don't have access to the traditional kind of Western financial system. And so i- it's, um. It's not just, hey, go write a book and there's gonna be people in the United States that read it, right? It's likely to be that there's a very global audience.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, um, so, right, so I thought, okay, there's a book here. Um, so what's the best story to tell? And the Bitcoin story, I think, has has pretty much been been told. I mean, there's uh. Digital Gold, I think is a great book, tells kind of the backstory of Bitcoin.

• 17:58Anthony Pompliano?

  And that's uh Nathaniel Popper wrote that, okay.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, so, you know, there's no digital gold for Ethereum. Nobody has really told the the backstory of Ethereum, like how it was created, the people behind it.

• 18:11Anthony Pompliano?

  And and so for those that don't know, uh, Digital Gold is a book about the early days of Bitcoin. Um, a lot of the players, uh, kind of their stories, etcetera, but it's all focused on Bitcoin and and obviously. Based on the name, uh, this idea of it being digital gold. And so no one had written that kind of early day story about Ethereum.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's such an interesting story. I thought it it really was an important story to tell. Because looking at what happened in twenty seventeen, a lot of it was because of ICOs. And ICOs really disrupted finance, like they they changed the way startups raise money. Um, and so, you know, I thought whatever happens, Ethereum already changed tech. It already changed finance, like it already made an impact in in blockchain, it brought blockchain forward. So, um, you know, I don't know. Start like from the start of this process, I I knew that it it wasn't a sure thing that Ethereum will will still be here.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  In ten to twenty years, whatever, maybe it will be another blockchain that is like the winner in smart contracts. Um, but Ethereum is the one that really started it. So it's worth telling it.

• 19:25Anthony Pompliano?

  You know, there's been a number of people who have obviously come on the podcast and talked about um things like, you know, ERC twenty. That protocol shook the world, right? And especially the finance world. Um, things like uh Ether became the reserve currency of fundraising globally, right? You know, people weren't uh just using Bitcoin, they were using Ether to to do this stuff. Uh and then obviously, the uh the the network itself, the platform of Ethereum um really did become the foundation for a new uh financial system to some degree, right?

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:56Anthony Pompliano?

  And so uh as you look at this, the book, though, is not just the story of Ethereum, right? It's also kind of, there's things that predate the beginning of Ethereum, like Vitalik's life and and things like that. Maybe just talk about kind of how you think um from a structural standpoint. You know, why go to talk about things pre, you know, the first time that somebody heard about Ethereum?

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, because Ethereum didn't like just come out of the blue. Uh Vitalik did a lot of work in the Bitcoin space before before Ethereum. I I don't know that a lot of people realize that Vitalik was a Bitcoiner before thinking about like writing Ethereum white paper. So it's important to know where all these ideas came from. And the idea of like um a a blockchain that did more than um just peer-to-peer cash like like Bitcoin was was in in the space before Ethereum. But Vitalik really took it to like the extreme and and just made it made. He he was the first one to think about making a protocol that's completely featureless.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  Um, I think other, I mean, o- other projects like um Mastercoin and NXT. There were other other blockchains that wanted to increase the like capabilities that Bitcoin had, but they they weren't doing it in the same way. That Ethereum did it, that it it just wanted to become like the the building blocks of like whatever people wanted to.

• 21:25Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like the true platform strategy, right? It's just like, we're gonna serve as a platform, we're not gonna compete with anything that's built on top of it. And just people can use it however they see fit.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Right, um, so, so yeah, I think it was important to to give background on how how Vitalik came up with with that idea and and then it just wasn't his his, oh, I mean, he wasn't the only one thinking about it at the time.

• 21:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm, and then what about, um, you know, in the book as you're writing this and and you're almost done, I think, right, is kind of where you're on the process. Um, talk to us about, is there a lot of things that maybe you went in assuming were true and and turned out not to be, or or even maybe there's like a story that, um, you know, you're like, wow, this really surprised me as in part of the story?

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, things that I.

• 22:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Don't give us to, don't give us the secrets of the book.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  No, no, I won't, I won't, but, okay, things I find really interesting about Ethereum, um, that I didn't know before. Uh, one is that, you know, seeing all the difficult decisions that, um, Vitalik had to make in the, in the, uh, uh, the history of of the project. He started really young, he was nineteen when he wrote the white paper, but he had to make really difficult, um, decisions that put him, uh, in in the position of having to decide between the the project

• 23:00Speaker 01

  or like a friend or like a a long time colleague. And every time, he chose Ethereum. So I think it it it's just really interesting to to see, you know, that he he's had this vision for for the platform and that's like the most important thing, um, always, like, no, no, no matter what, he's always gonna choose Ethereum. Um, something else is that.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  You know, like a lot of the problems that Ethereum is having now. They've been thinking about it for like since before the launch.

• 23:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Um, like proof of stake, uh, scaling, like all of those problems that they knew were coming like. Um, they knew that they that they would want to change to to from proof of work to another consensus mechanism. They knew that scaling would be a problem, like it wasn't like, oh, like.

• 23:56Anthony Pompliano?

  It's almost like they knew what they were doing.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like, it wasn't like crypto kiddies happened and suddenly they were like, oh, we need to scale. No, like they knew this was this was a problem from before. Um, so, yeah, it was just interesting to like go back to old blog posts like. Of the Ethereum Foundation of or like things like Vitalik Road, I'm like, oh, like this could be written like maybe now, you know? Um, so it just like tells you. That they've been like thinking about these problems and like working on on these problems for for a long time. And I think it's like taking a long time because they don't wanna do like a patch solution. Um, they really want to solve this this trilemma of, um, what is it like throughput, security?

• 24:42Speaker 01

  And decentralization and they don't wanna compromise on like any of of the three uh pieces. Which is like what a lot of smart contract platforms are doing, they they're compromising on one of the three. But Ethereum doesn't want to, and so, yeah, so they've been thinking about this from like the very early, early days.

• 24:59Anthony Pompliano?

  When you get done with the book, I need to go introduce you to every fund manager and you need to give him a lesson on Ethereum. Cause you got it now. Um, all right, so let's switch gears for a second and um I wanna talk about like what it means to write a book, right? So, uh, you have an idea, I think that there's a book, it sounds like Ethereum is probably gonna be a good idea to write the book about. What are the steps that you go through to actually um write the book, right? Like, uh, I think you've had to get a book deal, then you gotta actually put the work into write the book. Like, just walk us through the steps that you've had to go through to get to where you are.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Okay, um, so, so this is my first book, I had no idea what I was doing, I mean, I still kind of don't, but.

• 25:40Anthony Pompliano?

  You're you're one book ahead of pretty much every person listening to this. So you're good to go.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Okay, so first thing I did is I reached out to um an author, the author of a book that I was reading at the time, who was also a journalist and it was his first book, so I thought, okay, maybe he can give me some tips. And he introduced me to his agent. So with that, I emailed the agent, told him, hey, I have an idea for a crypto book. I met with the agent and he told me I have to write a book proposal. So what that is, is basically a business plan for the book, where I have to, I had to write, okay, what the book is, why now, why I should be the one to write it, the outline with like summaries for each chapter,

• 26:30Speaker 01

  it's like a twenty-page document. And once I had that, then the agent went and sent it to to many different publishers. In like a couple of weeks, I got an answer from Harper Collins and they, you know, made an offer to buy their rights to the book. And I accepted the offer right away.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, in, in, in, usually it happens that there, there's like more negotiation and

• 27:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Like a bidding war almost, if they really like it.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. For me, Harper Collins really, was really interested and they wanted to kind of take it out of the table. And they made a really good offer. So my agent advised that I should just take that, so.

• 27:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. First of all, congratulations.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:24Anthony Pompliano?

  It's a lot of work. So you get the book deal with Harper Collins. They basically, my understanding, we were talking before, is they give you a book advance, right? And then essentially, when the book goes on sale, they, you know, recoup their capital and then there's a split of the book. What do you have to do between the book going live and signing the book deal? Right, so when you sign the book deal, you gotta write the book.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, what's that process like?

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Um, okay, so before, even before the book deal, I I had been reporting for the book. So, so first thing, I I kind of had like a basic structure of what I wanted the book to be. I had a list of like the key people I wanted to interview. So start reaching out to everyone I want to interview, um, planning my trips like. I I knew eh I wanted to do in-person interviews for like key people. Uh, so so just do doing a lot of planning with interviews, reaching out like. I think that the first uh few few weeks was a lot about just like scheduling as many interviews as I could. Um, once I had like kind of the the the first, I don't know, like ten or.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  I don't know how many, but like the first like key interviews. Then I I started just like very slowly writing like the first pieces. Um, I tried to write like after I did uh. Each interview, I tried to write like whatever um. Interesting pieces came out of that and just to feel like I I was, I had something on paper like.

• 29:01Anthony Pompliano?

  You're making progress.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I didn't wanna just like be interviewing. Um, but I think it was like after like six months of of research and reporting that I actually started to write like the real book.

• 29:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Holy shit.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Alright, and so when you start writing the book, uh, I've always wondered like, do you start on like? Okay, this is page one, and then you go from page one to like page two hundred and you just write sequentially? Or do you say, okay, today I'm gonna work on chapter three, let me write chapter three now. You know, the next time I'm gonna work on chapter two, then I'll just skip to chapter twelve, like. Do you skip around or do you just write it from first page all the way to the back?

• 29:37Speaker 01

  So eh in in the beginning, so so while I was doing these interviews, I was like writing them pieces, right? So at the start, I had just like chunks of like different sections of the book. And and then it just came came to a point where I had like all these chance and I had like most of my key interviews and that's when I just started writing from like like

• 30:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Page one.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  From page one, yeah.

• 30:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  But I did, I I I actually started from like chapter three, like I wasn't clear exactly what like my first like two chapters were. So I wrote like first ten chapters and then I went back and wrote like the first two.

• 30:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it, so you know like a- added more to the beginning.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Um, how long will the book be?

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Um, I like probably ninety thousand words, which is like I like between three hundred and four hundred pages, I think.

• 30:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Around.

• 30:34Anthony Pompliano?

  That's that's a lot.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, and then um, how many people do you think you'll have interviewed by what it's all said and done like? Ten, a hundred, a thousand, like what just ballpark?

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I have around a hundred interviews right now.

• 30:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Already?

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, so you'll be probably over a hundred by the time that you're done, wow, it's a lot of work. Um, okay, and then I guess, uh, what is your like? You know, let's fast forward ten years from now and when people look back at the book like and I was asked, I'm like, what did you think about this book? Like, what's the one thing you want them to say?

• 31:10Speaker 01

  I want them to to say that that's when they understood why blockchain technology matters.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  And you know, why it can be, why it can really shape um, just the way things work. Beyond money, um, because I think that's what Bitcoin has down, I mean, that's what it's good at, but I think Ethereum really opens up, um.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Kind of the vision of what blockchain can do.

• 31:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm. And so, um, if you can do that, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you wrote a New York Times bestseller.

• 31:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you have aspirations to follow some of these other books that, um, you know, they basically take the book and they take the IP and then they turn it into a movie as well? Is it something that you would pursue or is it just write the book and move on and and never want to hear about Ethereum again?

• 32:06Speaker 01

  No, no, I mean, um, I definitely think it will make a great movie like this is beyond just like, okay, this is interesting technology. I think it's a really interesting story like it's a fun story to read. It has tons of drama, has interesting characters, like it really has all the ingredients of a good movie. Um, so yeah, definitely try to try to get a movie out of this.

• 32:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that would be pretty cool. Uh, what the first movie was, uh, was about Ethereum.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 32:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Um, any, any characters that you think could actually play themselves in the movie? Like anyone in the story, like you think Vitalik could play Vitalik in the movie?

• 32:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:43Anthony Pompliano?

  No.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  I think he had, he would have no interest, you know?

• 32:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I was gonna say he's too smart. He's just like, I'm not dealing with it.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  He just wants to be.

• 32:53Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm trying to go build Ethereum.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  All the time. Um, I don't know. There's just like, like there's just really charismatic people in Ethereum like like the first guy that comes to mind is Griff Green.

• 33:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  I think like he's just like a natural, like outgoing person that would like play himself. Um, but yeah, I it it'll be hard to find like the right person to play Vitalik. I don't know.

• 33:16Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Well, you you think about who that's gonna be. So if you go pitch it as a movie, they're probably gonna want to know. Um, okay, very cool. And so, um, before we get into the rapid fire questions to end it, let's just talk for a second about, um, you know, I think a lot of people in the cryptocurrency industry, they they're just like down this deep, deep rabbit hole, right? They consume all of their content about crypto on Twitter and Telegram and Reddit and crypto news sites and just they're so lost that they don't even know which way is up anymore, right? Because they're that far down the rabbit hole.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:51Anthony Pompliano?

  And I'm like victim number one at times, right? So so it's not it's not a a bad thing. It's just that's what happens in this industry.

• 34:00Anthony Pompliano?

  But there's so much other stuff that happens in finance, right? And like from your perspective as a journalist, take like outside of the crypto industry. Is this stuff important to anybody? Or do they just literally say like, oh, you know, you crypto kids like that's cute? Go sit in the corner and like, don't be too loud, right? Like, like, how how are they looking at this? And and is it material in terms of like the global scale and and media coverage in in the finance community? Or is it still pretty small at NAC?

• 34:32Speaker 01

  I think it's still pretty small. Um, I think just, you know, from from just hearing uh colleagues opinion at Bloomberg. Uh, it was always just like, okay, this is cute. Like this is funny. Um, or, you know, people are still, I don't think, taking crypto seriously. Um, because it's it's it's a really small market, like it has a really small trading volume compared to to most uh markets. And, you know, it's like all of the the news that come out, a a lot of it is really negative um with hacks and just uh market like just

• 35:12Speaker 01

  prices and data not not being credible. Um, so I think it it makes it hard for for like professional investors to to take this way seriously. But I think I think it's it's definitely getting better. Um, and uh, I think looking at the space now, I it's already matured from from where we were in twenty seventeen. Uh, I think there's a lot more real stuff going on, um, like actual use, like I look at the DeFi space, like decentralized finance. And and see, okay, there's actual like traction here and use beyond speculation. And it just like, it tells me, okay, if there's like, if we're really starting a bull market now, it'll have more solid

• 35:54Speaker 01

  fundamentals than it did in twenty seventeen. And that will help uh institutional investors and professional investors take this space seriously.

• 36:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When uh when's the book supposed to come out?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Uh, a year from now, blockchain weeks uh next year.

• 36:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so blockchain week two thousand twenty.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:11Anthony Pompliano?

  If uh if we're entering a bull market now, it's gonna come out right around the halving, which should be a pretty good point for you to release a book.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  I really hope so.

• 36:21Anthony Pompliano?

  We literally are, uh, our business is to bet on it and that's something I would bet on.

• 36:27Anthony Pompliano?

  That's, uh, that's pretty cool timing there. Um, okay. And then I guess, look, uh, one other last thing is just like, you've been on the other side as a journalist, right? And, and you've probably heard a million pitches from crypto businesses or people in the crypto community. Like, what would be your advice to them, right? Like, what's the biggest mistakes they make? And then like, what, what should they keep in mind when they do talk to reporters that maybe it's just very obvious that they're not paying attention to?

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Okay, I think, um.

• 36:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Don't be too harsh on people.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  No, I'll be harsh. No, I think that the, the, the main advice is to not announce anything until they have actual progress, until they, they have actual results to show for their work. Um, just like, keep your head down and build and don't like, clog journalists' inboxes with like, vapid announcements. And if, if you have something that's, that's worth looking at, you'll, you'll get coverage. Um, but if you just like announce, oh, like, we, we launched our mainnet today, um, that's gonna subtract your, from your credibility. Um, the other thing is just say why this, this matters.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Like, don't get, people often get really focused on, on like, the details of the tech and, you know, why this, uh, you know, consensus algorithm is better than the other one. Um, at least like for mainstream reporters, what they're gonna look at is how is this gonna change people's lives? Like, how, what impact does it have on like, normal people? And just like, tell it in a way that people can, can understand. Um, I think, yeah, just, eh.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Entrepreneurs like often forget that um and yeah, forget to like communicate in in a way that regular people can understand um. What else? Uh yeah, and and just like I I think it's it's it's easy for for people who are so excited about what they're building to think that everyone is gonna be as as excited um. But again, it it comes down to put yourself in like the other like the other person's shoes like why? Why would should they care about what you're doing?

• 38:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm. And and it feels like to me, I mean, the point you made about wait to make an announcement or try to get press coverage when there's substance.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 38:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Couldn't be more overstated like could that couldn't be more important, right? Um it's just you see it all the time. It's like, you know, the the running joke obviously is uh is is the team at a at Tron who announces an announcement about unannounced.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, okay, guys, not not really helping your case.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  It gets really exhausting.

• 39:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Um for sure. Uh okay, so before I wrap up, I always do some rapid fire questions. Uh what do you think is the most important company in crypto?

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Company?

• 39:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Company in crypto. You can't say Ethereum.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 39:28Anthony Pompliano?

  You're biased to Ethereum.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Wow, um.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  I don't let me think. I'm like blanking out now. Um.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Let's see, maybe just.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  I wanna say like I didn't like Coinbase is coming to mind just because like they uh they get a lot of hate uh on on Twitter. But I I really think that, you know, they're like maybe the first place just normal people will go to.

• 39:59Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  When they wanna come into this space.

• 40:01Anthony Pompliano?

  The largest exchange in the United States?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Them, they're perfectly financed here. Um what what is the thing that you believe in crypto? That you think the most number of people would disagree with? Like what's like your most controversial thought?

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Um.

• 40:15Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm especially interested because you've done a bunch of work on Ethereum.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Let's see, um.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think. Uh, controversial.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Um, maybe.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Uh, let me draw.

• 40:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Maybe you don't have any controversial thoughts.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  No, no, let me think, um.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Okay, so I think like the Ethereum community portrays itself to be like very rainbow and like unicorns and like peace and love.

• 40:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Literally, they wear them on their T-shirts.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, um, but just like looking at the backdoor drama. Uh, I don't think that's, you know, the, the most accurate portrayal. I think they can be as mean as like hardcore Bitcoiners.

• 41:10Anthony Pompliano?

  That's, I'm sure there's a lot of people who don't recognize that. That's, that's actually a pretty interesting insight. Um, what do you think is the most important book you've ever read?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Um, okay, so I think.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Um.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Let me think. Uh, well, I think, yeah, probably Michael Lewis, uh, The Big Short had the biggest influence on me, I think.

• 41:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Because I think when I, after I read it, I, I was like, okay, this is the book I would wanna write. Just like very interesting, um, nonfiction story on, on finance because I mean, that's what I, what I, what I know, what I cover. And I think what moves the world. So after I read that, I was like, okay, like this is how finance can be interesting. And fun to read and that's what I, I'd wanna read. I mean, I, I'd wanna write.

• 42:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Very cool. Um, in a second, I'm gonna let you ask me a question to, to finish it, but before I always talk to people about aliens. Um, believer in aliens, not believer, do you think they're real or not?

• 42:16Speaker 01

  I I think there I think yeah, I believe in aliens.

• 42:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Um, I think there has to be. I mean, there's a huge. Universe out there, we can't be the only life. In in it, yeah, so I I think there's.

• 42:29Anthony Pompliano?

  There's an incredibly high number of people like around a percentage basis that come in here that believe in aliens.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:35Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like probably like over seventy five eighty percent.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Maybe, yeah, like spending so much time in crypto like makes.

• 42:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, well, yeah, that's that's true. That's a good point. Maybe everyone who just comes in here is crazy. Um, all right, what uh what one question do you have for me to uh to finish up?

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Well, I'd love your. Your advice, like what would you want to read in in a book on it here?

• 42:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Interesting, um.

• 42:59Anthony Pompliano?

  So I'm actually fascinated by the players in the very early days. And. How they got to that place like. And why they wanted to build it.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And and the reason why uh I I'm so fascinated by the why is.

• 43:20Anthony Pompliano?

  It's finance related. It's very capitalistic to go create something like this, um it can drive a lot of wealth. I don't think, and it's my outside assumption. That many of the people in that room, that's why they were doing it.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 43:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? Now, maybe there was, right? I I'm not I'm not sure. Hopefully, the book covers it.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 43:40Anthony Pompliano?

  But to me, if it's not capitalist driven. Why? Right? Is it just like they're screwing around and they want to go build something and like, oh, this would be cool to see what happens? Is it like, we want to go take down Wall Street? We've got this great idea, right? You know, like like whatever that reason is. Um, and my guess is that like, I don't know, there's probably. Three to ten people, you know, that are important in there, five, ten people, whatever it is. Many of them actually have different answers, probably.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that created huge problems down the line.

• 44:13Anthony Pompliano?

  It sounds like you already know the answers. Okay, alright, perfect. I will read the book. Where can people, if they're interested in the book, are they able to preorder anything right now?

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, not yet, but yeah, if you follow me on Twitter, of course, I'll announce it as soon as it's available.

• 44:30Anthony Pompliano?

  What is your, what's your Twitter account?

• 44:32Speaker 01

  It's @Camirussel, C-A-M-I-R-U-S-S-L.

• 44:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so if they follow you there, then everyone on Twitter will know when the book is coming out. Alright, awesome. Thank you so much for doing this. I know you didn't have to do it, and it's just really cool, I think, to hear kind of why you're writing the book and talking to you at a point where you're about a year out from releasing it. And so maybe when you go to release it, we'll bring you back and see if the things that you're thinking about now end up making it in the book.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd be awesome.

• 44:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Thanks so much.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 45:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Hey, everyone. Pop here. If you liked this episode of Off the Chain and want to help us take crypto to the top of the apple, Spotify and other podcast charts, please do us a favor and rate, review and subscribe. To review, simply go to the Off the Chain homepage, scroll down until you see the five blank stars. Taking 15 seconds to fill those stars in and leave a quick review goes a long way in helping us take the entire crypto ecosystem to the top of the charts. I appreciate you listening and see you next time on Off the Chain.