Bitcoin's iPhone Moment Will Trigger Wall Street FOMO | Jordi Visser

Jordi Visser is a veteran macro investor with 30+ years of experience and the author of the VisserLabs Substack. In this conversation, we break down why bitcoin keeps holding up through bad news, whether Wall Street FOMO is coming for crypto, and how consumer AI agents are reshaping markets. We also discuss BlackRock's AI and crypto paper, Visa and Mastercard, compute, tokenization, and the bitcoin outlook for the next six months. ======================== Arch Public is an agentic trading platform that automates investment strategies across Stocks, Commodities, ETFs and Crypto. Whether you’re rotating into AI & Gold, allocating to the S&P 500, or accumulating Bitcoin, Arch Public executes your plan 24/7 without ever taking custody of your assets or funds. Sign up today at https://www.archpublic.com, and start your FREE automated trading strategy! ======================== GalaxyOne is a financial technology platform built for people who want their cash working harder. Open an account with promo code POMP and deposit $10,000 to earn a $1,000 bonus. See site for promotion details → https://www.galaxy.app/pomp1000Galaxy Premium Yield is an investment note issued by Galaxy Digital LP and guaranteed by Galaxy Digital Holdings LP. It is not a bank deposit, is unsecured, and is not FDIC or SIPC insured. U. S. accredited investors only. Cash deposits held at Cross River Bank, Member FDIC. Securities products are not FDIC insured, not bank guaranteed, and may lose value. GalaxyOne Crypto is not FDIC or SIPC insured. Terms apply. ======================== Uphold is the easiest way to buy and sell crypto unlike any other platform allowing you to trade in just one step between any supported asset. Check them out at https://www.uphold.com/pomp/This video includes a paid sponsorship with Uphold. I’m compensated by Uphold for promoting its products and services and may receive commissions from referrals. Terms apply. Not available in all jurisdictions. Digital assets are risky and may result in the total loss of your capital. ======================== 0:00 - Intro0:56 - Why bitcoin & crypto are holding up so well3:43 - Wall Street FOMO & why Visa/Mastercard get disrupted7:20 - Bitcoin’s iPhone moment15:04 - AI agent memory & the consumer agent race23:13 - What happens when a competitor blocks AI agents?25:05 - BlackRock's AI & crypto paper30:36 - Will consumer agents move Meta & Mag 7 stocks?35:14 - AI breakthroughs & jobs43:45 - Bitcoin outlook for the next 6 months

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 0:39Speaker 02

  I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it it wasn't.

• 0:47Speaker 01

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• 1:00Speaker 03

  We are at the same point as when the iPhone came out for crypto. The change was that the iPhone came out to allow Uber. For crypto, it's obvious. It's the agents. It's plain and simple, the agents. So the fact that to me, the ghost city analogy for ghost rails is about you build all this infrastructure. You build Ethereum, you build Bitcoin, you develop this whole thing. People know where it is. It needs time to survive the test of time. It needs people looking at it and then it can take off.

• 1:29Anthony Pompliano?

  What's going on, guys? Today we've got a great conversation with Jordy Visser. In this conversation, we talk about what's going on with consumer AI agents? How is it affecting financial markets? Why are there certain stocks that everyone's excited about? But Jordy's got some data that says that they're actually under a lot of pressure. Bitcoin broke out consolidating. Is it going to go up? Is it going to go down? Are we in a Bitcoin bull market? And where else is value going to accrue in your portfolio? What are the assets you don't own that Jordy thinks you should? All that and much more in this conversation with Jordy Visser. All right, Jordy, crypto has done a very good job of hanging in there all week long, even though a number of other things have come under pressure. Why do you think crypto is trading so well?

• 2:04Speaker 03

  When did we last see each other?

• 2:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Couple of days ago, Tuesday. We did a drive by, high five.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  I walk into an event not knowing you're there. I thought we were friends. We do this show. We walked through a turnstile the other way. See ya. Oh, see ya.

• 2:19Anthony Pompliano?

  The difference between you and I is you went for multiple days. See, young Patagonia, listen, I'm an expert at this. I took my train down to DC, did my 15 minute talk and got right back on the train and came back. You stayed.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  I stayed and had the best time. And for the people who know that I had a great time, you know who you are. I had a great time. Okay, so whenever you, the great thing about technical analysis, we talked a lot about the importance of the original break in Bitcoin from the low 60s up. But what was important was the negative news that was happening in the time before. Cardiac goes down to close to 0%. Fed rate hikes are going through the roof in terms of expectations. And at the same time, you have the cold wallet incident. And yet Bitcoin stayed at like 60 to 65. And so the second that anything good happens, oh, Besen intervenes in the yen.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  And then we get all this debasement stuff and it breaks out. But it stays under the important levels of kind of the highs from the prior six months, which were right around 82. So now we gap up again. So the question is, when you're doing these in technical analysis where first you handle bad news, you go up. What happened when we broke out last week? The Fed raised rates. Tenure rates are going higher. Equities are, you know, breadth is breaking down in the market and yet we still found a way to go higher again. So I believe based on the inbound traffic I'm getting from.

• 3:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Everybody.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  Everyone, but people that manage trillions of dollars. So not the analysts who work for them, the people who manage trillions of dollars, asking me to talk about the paper I wrote two months ago to explain why the paper I wrote on tokenization will change the world, what that means. So I think we've entered a point where you have to realize that people are starting to ask questions about it. Part of this is because of the events that have occurred with consumer agents and things where I've connected the dots. But part of this is also what happened last year. And I think there's PTSD. People missed Micron. They missed the semiconductor trade.

• 4:31Speaker 03

  And so I think what's starting to happen here is they know crypto is not dead, meaning they kind of waved it off. So people that manage lots of money that need to produce alpha, this is not a greed thing. I think there's FOMO starting to set in.

• 4:44Anthony Pompliano?

  You think that there's FOMO coming from Wall Street on the crypto trade?

• 4:47Speaker 03

  There's no doubt in my mind. Now, I said on the show that I believe that 2027 would be the important year. And the reason is this, you need to have FOMO first because we're nearing the end of the calendar year and I'm spending a lot of time, like I did in DC, about machine time versus human time. Human time moves really slow. Crypto doesn't move slow. It moves very fast. AI doesn't move slow. It moves very fast. Oh, rates are going higher. This is going to hurt the housing market. This is going to hurt small caps. I posted something on X today. So let me get this straight. The Mag 7 are near all time high and the Russell 2000 is breaking down, which means breadth is breaking down. And if you do a chart for all of you breath fear mongers now of the market, you'll realize

• 5:31Speaker 03

  that, oh, QQQ over IWM has been a trade since the iPhone came into existence. If you're not part of the digital economy, you're suffering. So I think there's an element that crypto now has a fundamental use. It has public companies, which means they can do a little bit of investing. They're not going into the tokens, but they are looking. But I think the fact that you and I talk about it all the time and we have a lot of different listeners, I write about the relationship. I set up a business based on the importance of AI to crypto disrupting macro. I think FOMO is kicking in because they're trying to figure out ways to make money because it's been kind of a frustrating year for alpha. And I'm just going to give you one example because I can tell by people reaching out

• 6:14Speaker 03

  on on me on things like Visa and Mastercard. So Visa and Mastercard are your classic examples of things that, oh, crypto is not going to disrupt them. And I'm just like, of course it will. Like, I don't even know how you could argue. They're going to benefit, maybe initially, but not in five years.

• 6:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 6:35Speaker 03

  We're entering a deflationary period that people just do not understand. Deflation, not inflation, deflation. You and I agree on that. The deflationary pressures that come from AI are intense. It's just a matter of how long it takes for it to filter through.

• 6:49Speaker 03

  But where it's really going to filter through is when people are having agents and agents' job is to find their airline ticket for the cheapest price that satisfies, to book a travel thing where they're stripping out the middlemen as much as possible. Visa and Mastercard by definition are middlemen. So when people argue with me on this, they go, well, no, no, they, you need this for this, they're going to benefit. But I'm like, yeah, just like Salesforce.com. You see Salesforce.com lately, it's up big. It's down 10% this year. S and P is up 12. So it's underperformed by 22%. Semiconductors, my thematic portfolio is up 45%. Salesforce down here, even the Mag 7, they're up 10%. They've underperformed. I think people are making a mistake on Visa and Mastercard.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  They're not going out of business, but at some point you have to recognize that terminal value matters again. And crypto and tokenization are going to change the world because it unleashes a lot of them too, because wealth becomes money. I wrote about that this week. It's on Substack. But on the other side, it brings an enormous amount of entrepreneurs that you can invest in because they're going to have tokens. Is it going to be this year? No, but it'll be in five years. So where Visa and Mastercard go, it's not about them going out of business. It's about in five years, will people still be paying a vig? Agents won't. Agents don't pay vigs. Agents figure out how. So people tell me consumer behavior, they know consumer behavior. I'm sorry, but you don't know agent behavior.

• 8:15Speaker 03

  Agent behavior is all about the goals and the goals are find things fast and cheap.

• 8:20Anthony Pompliano?

  In the last bull market, there was a lot of institutions that they started to dip their toes and dipping toes, because they're so big, felt really big to the crypto industry. So if you have, you know, $100 billion of assets and you take 1%, it's a billion dollars. In the crypto world, there was almost no funds that had a billion dollars. And so all of a sudden, quote, quote, smart money or the big guys show up and they're, wow, they put a billion dollars. To them, it was like, uh, let's see what happens here. It's a 1% allocation.

• 8:52Anthony Pompliano?

  I do feel like Wall Street, they're ready for the fat pitch now. They last cycle dipped their toe. They know what this thing can do when it's going in the right direction. They understand it's super volatile. They're glad they just dipped their toes and they didn't go all in because they saw the volatility. But your point about FOMO, it's like, uh, three balls, two strikes, bottom of the ninth, and you know the pitcher's going to throw a fastball and they're just waiting. And I don't know when, you probably understand better than me, like, what are the trigger that's going to let them, you know, just swing? But this time it's not, you know, a billion. It's 10, 20, 30 billion per firm. It's Bitcoin, other cryptos, tokenization. Like now they are ready to play this whole thing.

• 9:37Anthony Pompliano?

  And some of it is they have more options now. They couldn't just go buy, you know, Bitcoin before. So they had to wait for the ETFs. But also how many public companies are there now that give them some degree of exposure to individual cryptos or tokenization or even, you know, crypto being used or blockchains being used in certain verticals? Like the addressable, you know, market of what they can invest in has grown so much as well that they actually can put more money to work at the same time.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  So let's talk about what you just said and let's go back to 2122 when they they stubbed their toe. Okay, they bought at the highs, they jumped into NFTs, they jumped into FTX, they jumped into a whole bunch of things and it seemed like an obvious situation. Now, the reality is behind closed doors, the VC world was pumping an enormous amount of money into SaaS businesses and into crypto. Covid is just over, we're in a raging bull market. I've said this before, I'll say it again. For crypto, that was the dot com bubble. Like, everyone's looking for the dot com bubble in AI. That was the dot com bubble for crypto.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  It wasn't debt, but it was VC money that came in. Well, a lot of these rails, they don't need VC money now. So with AI, the whole world is changing and this is part of my thing. You don't need to hire people and you get to use digital agents and go through it. The thing that saved dot com bubble companies is in 2007, there was a change that was able to use those rails. And I keep saying this over and over again. We are at the same point as when the iPhone came out for crypto. The change was that the iPhone came out to allow Uber. I'll joke about this all the time, but you can't take a laptop up and be ordering a car outside. You need wifi, cellular. You needed a smartphone to be able to have Uber work.

• 11:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, GPS in the phone was probably the most important part, yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, you couldn't do it. So we needed an app store. For crypto, it's obvious, it's the agents. It's plain and simple, the agents. So the fact that to me, I've been talking about this for a while, that the ghost city analogy for ghost rails is about you build all this infrastructure. You build Ethereum, you build Bitcoin, you develop this whole thing. People know where it is. It needs time to survive the test of time. It needs people looking at it and then it can take off. Peter Lynch wrote a book that he's still famous for, which is all about one-upping Wall Street. The beauty of this is

• 12:10Speaker 03

  Wall Street doesn't cover tokens in crypto. They're starting to get involved in the rails, but they don't cover individual tokens. So if you're at a big mutual fund or a big pension fund, you're like, you know what I'd really like to see? Hey, can you give me the Morgan Stanley research on crypto tokens? Doesn't exist. So before, when you're

• 12:29Anthony Pompliano?

  22V research exists.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. And then again,

• 12:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Mr. Research

• 12:33Speaker 03

  It's live now, it's live. It went out this week and now every week I'll be going through the vertical. So yes, that was what I planned. My business was about the fact that Peter Lynch's philosophy was the best way to make money is to be early on something. But the only way to be early on something is to know that the money is not invested in the thing that you're early on and Wall Street doesn't cover it. That was his whole theory. That was one-upping Wall Street. Well, that's where I believe we are in crypto. So for all the people have committed their time, where they understand every token that I put in my 46 name index, they already know what they are. You have a huge advantage and the money is enormous on the other side because the beauty of the crypto guardrails or the valuation is still $4 trillion compared to 900 trillion of asset and all of those assets are going to be tokenized and be on chain.

• 13:18Speaker 03

  Is it going to happen tomorrow? No. But you don't invest in things based on today, you based on their growth. If you come up with a great idea like Starbucks and you have one store, you know how they start to really get excited when you go to two stores, three stores, four stores? It's about growth at a very low level. Everyone that screwed up the token trade, I wrote a paper on inference. We talked about Micron almost all of last year. The smartest people missed it and they missed it because they didn't understand compute. This trade is still the same. You want to be long compute, speed. You want to be long crypto, speed. You want to be short everything that has friction. My presentation in DC was about being long speed, short friction. I was saying it to politicians, ultimate friction.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  Why are senior people leaving Google? Why hasn't Google been able to do what Anthropic and OpenAI did? Why aren't people asking that question that the best AI models are not at companies worth with the biggest balance sheets? Anthropic went from $3 billion in revenues to where it is today, let's say 80. In the same amount of time, as I said on stage, the Clarity Act went from an idea to rejection. In the same amount of time that Anthropic went up. You want to be short friction, you want to be long speed. And we're at that point now where that is starting to play out. And I think crypto guardrails and the whole crypto system, you're going to have a lot of people knocking on your doors. And this is going to be money that's coming in. The problem is they don't have access to it because these funds can't invest in

• 14:47Speaker 03

  these tokens at this point. That'll all change over time, but what they can invest in is Ethereum and Bitcoin and then all of the stocks that are there. I think you're going to see an evolution that's going to change next year.

• 14:58Anthony Pompliano?

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• 15:40Anthony Pompliano?

  It's exactly what every serious investor does, institutional-grade automation that works across every major asset class. There's no more emotional trading, no more missing tax opportunities, just smarter, hands-free execution of your preferred strategies. Go to archpublic.com right now, connect with their team, set up a time, bring your accountant if you'd like, then you can learn what automated trading can do for you. Archpublic.com This whole idea of the AI agents, the ability to use this technology, how it goes faster, etc. I think a lot of folks have focused on the intelligence for rightful reasons is, you know, is it a 130, 140, 150 IQ? How do I get as much of that as possible by going long compute? The more people that use the intelligence, obviously the more productive they should become and all that kind of stuff.

• 16:25Anthony Pompliano?

  But one aspect I don't hear a lot of people talk about, which I catch myself now, I try to be very conscious of my consumer behaviors. It's memory is better than me now. And I find myself telling various agents, remind me tomorrow to do something at this time. Put this in your memory and don't forget it. Make sure that whenever you do this task, you always remember to do XYZ. And it hit me, if this thing is smarter than us and it has better memory than us, what can it not do? Like you are going to just turn over all of this stuff to it and everyone wants to start with intelligence, but the memory component.

• 17:07Anthony Pompliano?

  When we start talking about finance, start talking about financial data, that feels like a huge piece of this is whenever you talk to someone smart in finance, what do they know? They know history, they can tell you different cycles, they can tell you different, you know, catalysts, they can tell you things that triggered sell offs. All of this stuff and you're like, wow, this person's really smart. They understand all this. They're no match for the memory of a financial agent.

• 17:29Speaker 03

  So this is where we start going from the reality of the importance of enterprise agents and what we just went through last year to consumer agents.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  So let's separate memory into two components. I asked ChatGPT about how to fix something in my house. I ask it about some random thing that happens. Those are things I don't care about a memory of. And that's pretty much what you dominate a chatbot with. With Muse and for you, Instinct, I use it for everything memory wise. So like if I'm on a trip now, I can just take a photo, upload it into Muse, don't have to say anything. I just have to go back at some point and go, hey, just take everything that I did on that trip, all the receipts and put it into a into something for my company, for my accountant.

• 18:20Speaker 03

  It's there, it has the memory of everything. Hey, I booked a trip to so and so, can you send me the details of my trip to LA? And I just did this with it this morning. It sends me everything that I booked during the time, the meetings I have, where I'm staying, the whole thing. It asked me if it wants me to put it any place. The personal memory, the Jarvis, you know, from Iron Man, it exists now. And so those memories are really important, but those only come with a consumer agent where you're actually giving them access to everything. So I don't, I just don't think people have, until they use a consumer agent, they don't realize what just happened. Now, to get back to your IQ point, last week I talked about

• 19:01Speaker 03

  the point in situational awareness on page 71 where it goes parabolic. So when you watch your children grow up, like your kids are young.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  Their IQ is not real high at this point.

• 19:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, I know.

• 19:17Anthony Pompliano?

  My son still has got a hard time sometimes slowing himself down. He just runs into the wall as the stopping point.

• 19:23Speaker 03

  And you told me he would try to be Superman, like literally tried to be, see if, see if he was Superman. Okay.

• 19:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, he, yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it didn't work. Okay.

• 19:29Anthony Pompliano?

  A nice scar on his face for a while.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  So here's the thing.

• 19:34Speaker 03

  At some point, the intelligence gets to the point where the kids are really smart and they're smarter than you, but it takes

• 19:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, where we're starting from, there's only

• 19:43Speaker 03

  But no matter what, it's a progression and it keeps going. With the AI models reaching the point, so much has happened in the last three months. Two and a half months. And I'm going to say two and a half and I'm going to preview something that I'm going to do in my video this weekend. I think what doesn't get talked about enough with Muse.

• 20:03Speaker 03

  Meadow was left for dead in June and on July 2, he had a town hall meeting or there was a report of a town hall meeting. Do you remember this?

• 20:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  And he said, the progress on what we found out later, it said AI and like all the media, but it was really their internal work on agents was not going at the pace they expected. How do you go from that point to Muse in two months?

• 20:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Let me tell you how.

• 20:31Speaker 03

  I'll give you, you tell me how and then I'll tell you the facts.

• 20:33Anthony Pompliano?

  I heard that he moved his desk over to the Meta AI team and he sat there and I've seen him do it before, you know, just war rooms, all stuff, whatever. How do you, if you're on that team, not figure it out when the big boss says, hey,

• 20:50Speaker 03

  It was from applying pressure. Okay.

• 20:52Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you think?

• 20:53Speaker 03

  Well, I'm going to show exactly what happened. Now, when I say exactly, I just want to make sure people know, if you haven't done this before.

• 21:02Speaker 03

  Ask your LLM to say, hey, I want to figure out how we could go from this point to this point. And I want you to go through every public announcement by any employee that worked in that group there, whether it's in Reddit, wherever it is. And then it puts together a timeline of the changes. A week after that news story came out, there was a breakthrough. So the reason this is important is whatever caused it, they started releasing new versions of Muse consistently, just like Anthropic does. Like you could see they were making progress because each one, they were, because they were under pressure. This is the reason

• 21:44Speaker 03

  why with this consumer agent point with Instinct and with Meta, you don't think OpenAI is now racing to get their agent out because they don't want to lose the eyeball battle. So right now Meta has this advantage, but we're going to start getting consumer, consumer agent releases, personal assistance from everyone now. And so

• 22:03Anthony Pompliano?

  So what does a user do? Do they adopt all of them? Do they just pick one they like? How do they navigate this onslaught of everyone wants them to use their agent?

• 22:12Speaker 03

  This is where I'm already locked into Muse. It's, I, my own experience is unlike an LLM, I've always used ChatGPT the most except for one little window when Claude Code went through it, but then I went right back to ChatGPT. And I'm still, I like Astra better than, than, than Claude. But then again, we had two new releases this week. Opus 5.5 is just ridiculous. But Muse, it's locked in because it has all my information now and it's doing all this work. It's connected to my emails. It's doing everything I want and I'm getting used to it. And it's very hard for me to see that I would change it because I haven't run into anything yet where it made a mistake or did something wrong. It's really, really amazing. The reason I bring it up is as you're going through this

• 22:56Speaker 03

  thing and you're thinking about the importance of agents, you have to get back to the situational awareness thing. We're at a point where so much incredible stuff is happening and the media focuses on, oh my God, there was a hacking. But at the same time, we're making advancements with Navier-Stokes and then Anthropic comes out with something on CRISPR.

• 23:18Speaker 03

  If you go through X, you'll get 50% of biologists and people saying, this is BS. They're just releasing this for the IPO. And then I'm going, well, the only one I care about is the guy who is in Codebreaker, who is from MIT, who's one of the two renowned people in CRISPR that said, this is amazing. This is a breakthrough. Like, you're never going to get anything where it's signal. It's always going to be noise. There's always going to be half the population says it's not there and that's just human beings. But there's no doubt that for the next 12 months, if you want to make money, you're going to have to make it on compute and on the guardrails for these agents. Because how many deals did Muse do this week with Shopify, Instacart? Like, it's just growing PayPal. Everything

• 24:03Speaker 03

  is happening. So I think this is the critical point where the IQ has reached a level where we're at recursive self-improvement and every month is going to be another month of just advancements.

• 24:14Anthony Pompliano?

  What happens when Muse gets blocked by Amazon, which I think just happened? And you want to use one. It has all your information, but a very key use case for that agent gets cut off, not because they made a mistake or anything, but because a competitor is trying to introduce that friction, reduce speed. Do you then have to go and adopt Amazon's agent? Or do you think it's a world where your Muse agent will then talk to an Amazon agent and that communication would be the same thing as you as a human going to the website, but now they're just going to create their own agent and agent-to-agent communication?

• 24:51Speaker 03

  Again, I think the issue is going to come. You can't stop this. Like, I think when Android came out versus Apple and you're trying to figure out, can you use Uber on Android eventually? Or could that, I mean, I think the friction, they'll try to do whatever they can. I think Amazon and they're all competing, but in the end, I don't see how to go. Will Instinct be allowed to use all of them? I mean, I just don't see, if Amazon wants to lose business because everyone's on Muse and everyone starts using Shopify or starts using Instacart instead of Amazon, then it'll just drive markets other places. So it's not that they're going to end these things. I think in the end, they've got shareholders

• 25:34Speaker 03

  and if they take a decision, then it's like, okay, we're going to, we're going to enter our own one. And because we have the Amazon world, we're going to dominate. And then you've got Apple and Apple's going to have Siri. They're all, I mean, this is going to be like a growing agentic side. I just don't see how they can block things off because then they're choosing silos and they're limiting the ability of controlling a lot of it. And I just don't see how this is going to be anything more than the initial daze and how they're dealing with this. I think in the end, it's just going to be divvied up.

• 26:06Anthony Pompliano?

  It's fascinating to think about BlackRock. They came out with a paper this week talking about AI and crypto. Thank you for listening to the podcast for the last six months. I thought that was fantastically written or very well done. I would say 90% of it is very similar things that you've been talking about. There is 10 or 15% though in there that I think they kind of have different viewpoints and some of it maybe because they're coming from more of a financial mindset and a traditional finance. But what I think people will look back on the Bitcoin ETFs, the ETF was important, but the ETF really only happened once Uncle Larry said, I'm ready to do an ETF. And then somehow it all got approved. BlackRock writing the paper, there's a lot of papers that are written about Bitcoin

• 26:50Anthony Pompliano?

  or crypto and AI. But BlackRock writing it, again, kind of is like, oh, okay, the adults in the room also agree. Now, now it is for real. It feels like a contrarian viewpoint that just literally with the release of one paper goes from contrarian to consensus. Do you agree?

• 27:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think there was a targeted reason for the release though, too, based on the fact that in the same week, they also put three funds on chain. So

• 27:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, they have an agenda?

• 27:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, yeah, an agenda is the right, they have a business and I think they're selling what they're doing and they're ahead of the banks. So they're trying to stay ahead on this, just like Amazon's trying to not fall behind to Meta and OpenAI's. I mean, at the end of the day, the speed of change is going so rapidly and inside these walls, you have a lot to lose. So on the flip side, whenever I use Michael Saylor's line of, you don't find Bitcoin, Bitcoin finds you, which is a reference to the fact that until you actually need Bitcoin, you're not going to care. I think the same thing happens with AI. I think every time something happens in artificial intelligence, there's a fear of the SaaS apocalypse in your name or whatever. And we see this time and time again where

• 28:02Speaker 03

  something will fall 30, 40, 50%. A lot of the software names have not come back. And like I said, with Salesforce, Salesforce has bounced, but it's still down 10% year to date and it's down 15% over the last five years.

• 28:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Is that good?

• 28:16Speaker 03

  That's, that's not something you want to invest in. And again, Bitcoin is down significantly from the highs. So you can make the argument if you just pick this cherry pick this, this point of time. I think this is going to be a disruption filled point and I think everyone's trying to get the jump. And then when BlackRock has a huge advantage as someplace that people trust from a asset manager perspective, that has already made this big commitment to crypto, but they don't, I mean, fidelity is there. Franklin Templeton's there. It's not like they're the only ones. I think the entire side is trying to drive the Morgan Stanleys, the Bank Americas, Goldman Sachs, to make sure that they're focused on it. And they didn't really get focused on it, honestly, until what, the last year?

• 29:00Speaker 03

  Maybe the last, it's been this year that they were kind of forced into it. So there is a fear of missing out and that's the other part of the FOMO. When you really look and you don't think about the charts or you don't think about anything like what's happened this year in crypto?

• 29:16Speaker 03

  A lot's gone on. I know people don't like the word crypto. It's amazing to me. I like, I like provoking anger in people. They want digital assets. I was talking to someone yesterday who you had on, who you connected us with, who I brought up NFTs, like, what's a bad word? I get it. What do you want to call it? And it's like digital assets. Everything's a digital asset now. It's acceptable. So I think the whole industry is in a chase mode and I just think BlackRock has the biggest audience and the easiest time to do this stuff.

• 29:44Anthony Pompliano?

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• 30:29Anthony Pompliano?

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• 31:10Anthony Pompliano?

  are updated every 30 seconds. So you can verify your assets anytime. For US users, you can even earn yield on dollars with a USD interest account. No fees, no minimums and funds are insured up to $2.5 million through the Atomic Cash Sweep Program. If you want one app for your entire digital asset life, check out Uphold today. Go to uphold.com to learn more. Uphold.com. Go check them out today. Last week, we talked a lot about the agents and a number of things that now I think are moving rapidly in a matter of weeks from contrarian to consensus. On Monday, Meta gapped up almost 15% or so. I don't know if we get a pat on the back. Maybe we get

• 31:51Anthony Pompliano?

  like a little golf clap, right? What is your thought process on like, okay, we know the consumer agents are going to become a thing. People are already adopting them. You and I are adopting them or using them very aggressively. What does that mean for the companies? BlackRock's talking about this. Meta's building this. Like, do all of these companies actually see it flow through to performance and ultimately higher stock prices? Or is there maybe a period of time where there's tons of adoption, but stock prices don't really reflect that until they can show that they actually monetize these services?

• 32:24Speaker 03

  I think the market on Monday set a very similar framework to what happened with semiconductors saying, oh, my God, the agent world started today. How do we make money off agents?

• 32:39Speaker 03

  I think the disappointment will come, and again, how you measure the monetary benefits to Meta? Well, now they get the benefit of the doubt because they have this growth engine. So if you can find anything positive in there, it offsets the debt that they've been taking. The fact that the Mag Seven broke to all time highs on the same day, and last week I did talk about the fact, and I did on my, my, my weekend show that the Mag Seven all benefit from the agentic side in some way. I mean, Amazon has Alexa, Apple has Siri, Google has Gemini, like, there are all ways that you're going to benefit on this by having a personal assistant. I mean, for Muse, imagine if Google said, I'm not, you can't access my,

• 33:21Speaker 03

  my account, I, it would, it would be very, very difficult to, to go through. Now Muse can absolutely help me with Amazon because they just sign in under my name and go through it. And that's the beauty of like, well, how do you know it's not me? You can't buy things then. Okay, great. But can you do the research and tell me what I should look for and go through it? That is one of the powers of Muse, by the way, if people haven't used it. If you're taking a trip and you want to go find restaurants in a city, one of the things I hate the most about the way search works is when you type that in, you get whatever papers and advertisers have been paid to do that. When you use Muse, you, you,

• 33:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Get the answer.

• 33:58Speaker 03

  You get the answer. So I, I think the, the market is trying to,

• 34:01Anthony Pompliano?

  You're saying Muse is a bullshit filter?

• 34:03Speaker 03

  Uh, to a, to a degree, yes. It's, it's, it's really hurting. I, I don't understand still the advertising side. So I don't understand this whole thing of people being excited about ads personally.

• 34:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Ads in, in Muse?

• 34:15Speaker 03

  Like, anything regarding ads, when I hear consumer agents,

• 34:21Speaker 03

  I, I'm thinking that agents will be making decisions with no preferences. I don't know why people don't understand this, like, human beings. McDonald's putting a, a photo of a burger, no offense to anyone listening from McDonald's, but I, I don't eat McDonald's. And so when I see a photo, I know, and they try to make it look good.

• 34:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Best restaurant in America.

• 34:42Speaker 03

  It definitely controls a lot of the food supply in the country.

• 34:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Based.

• 34:49Speaker 03

  What is an AI agent going to make decisions on? They're going to make them based on price, reviews, all of these different things, but it's not going to be based on advertising. So maybe that's not today, but eventually it is. So when I hear people talk about consumer behavior, I think the agent side is still going to be compute. So if everyone who's like worried about semiconductors and stuff, watch this Sunday when I show you where we are. The compute needs just went up exponentially. Remember Meta's building a huge data center in, in, in Louisiana. Why? They're not selling the compute. Remember that was the story back in June also? They didn't sell any. They're not doing what, they actually have a need for it. Why do they have a need for it?

• 35:32Speaker 03

  Because of their consumer agents. And at some point this week, there was a waitlist where you couldn't get on, just like it was for Instinct. So I think consumer agents is going to lead to an enormous amount of compute. I do think there'll be a buzz trade for Mag Seven and things like that. I don't think they're going to outperform the S and P. I think they'll outperform small caps as people get panicked because of rates and because of oil. But in the end, I do think that you can make money off this, but I think the place where you want to go in, what are the agents using? They're using crypto. What do they need? They need compute. Those are the trades.

• 36:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you telling me that there's going to be zero ability to create like a cute agent that can flirt with somebody else's agent to get a sale? That's not going to be a thing?

• 36:09Speaker 03

  It's not going to be a thing.

• 36:10Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Well, there's some businesses that are going to be in trouble there.

• 36:14Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think through everything that's happening in the product side, one aspect that I think people are starting to almost forget about is there's a huge technical side to this. And Muse, I think the beauty of it is like, you have no clue what model they're using. You have no clue how much should compute cost. You don't know a token. The average person's never even heard that term, right? All they know is there's a piece of software that is a product. I tell it to do something, it does it. It's magic. On the technical side, uh, recently, Dwar Kesh sat down with Noam Brown, and it was a pretty interesting conversation. What were your main takeaways?

• 36:55Speaker 03

  Lately, my AI listening on podcasts has gone down.

• 37:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, interesting.

• 37:01Speaker 03

  And the reason is, someone who we both know asked me this yesterday because, uh, they're at the Moonshots, uh, event. And I said back and I said, here's the deal. When things are changing so fast,

• 37:19Speaker 03

  it's almost useless to listen to what happened in the prior week because the next week, there's a whole new thing. So unless it's something that's like earth shattering, like Opus 5.5 releasing doesn't change anything. Chat GPT six and Sol Luna doesn't change anything.

• 37:36Anthony Pompliano?

  I literally don't even think most people care anymore when these new things, unless it is a huge step function change.

• 37:42Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 37:43Anthony Pompliano?

  The iterative, nobody cares.

• 37:44Speaker 03

  It doesn't, it, it doesn't matter. And Astra, I said it to people, and I, I'm not going to care anymore. This thing is so good that it does everything that it needed to do, which wasn't the case before. And so the time between them, so that's the reason.

• 37:57Anthony Pompliano?

  One aspect of this I think is very interesting is when we look at, uh, measurements inside of Sylvia, and we're measuring, let's say, uh, accuracy or, uh, efficacy on certain benchmarks, we continue to talk internally without an answer. Let's say that Opus scores 88 and the Sylvia model scores 91. And let's say maybe Chat GPT, whatever version scores 86. Can a human tell the difference between 86, 88 and 91? Probably not.

• 38:31Speaker 03

  No.

• 38:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Can a human tell the difference between 40 and 90? Absolutely.

• 38:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:38Anthony Pompliano?

  But one of the questions is like, what is the, the band of the human eye cannot, you know, identify the difference? And I think that what you're talking about in these new model releases, they're within the band of, to the user is the same thing.

• 38:50Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 38:50Anthony Pompliano?

  And what you need is you need these breakouts. People only care when it is obvious to them.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  So before I, I, I go through what I am listening to and, and why this has changed in the Noam Brown situation. So there was one that came out this week, a benchmark that, um, Astra, I think got a hundred percent and, and and Fable got 45.

• 39:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Ooh.

• 39:13Speaker 03

  This was a driving benchmark. So it was a driving, from what I saw, simulation.

• 39:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 39:19Speaker 03

  And so they had to learn.

• 39:20Anthony Pompliano?

  It's a fake test for a fake action.

• 39:21Speaker 03

  A course, yeah. And they had to do it. And Astra ended up being able to do it on like the second try, and I'm not sure that, uh, Fable finished the course. The reason I bring that up is not to say, well, this one's better than this. It's to say that we're getting into the point now where humanoids, robotics, full self-driving becomes something important. Remember, making snap decisions at a given point and having the vision to incorporate that and learning as you go along, it's going to take an enormous amount of compute. So this is the beginning of showing how the models are now entering the next stage. It's funny how many people go, the images you have on these slides on the weekend are so good. Where, where do you do them? Guys don't know how to do them?

• 40:04Speaker 03

  And so again, I used to use Nano Banana a long time ago. That stopped.

• 40:08Anthony Pompliano?

  I remember.

• 40:08Speaker 03

  And, and it has been Chat GPT since then. But it's amazing to me that people don't use them. I, I mean, I use it all day long because I'm a visual learner. I prefer it that way. All right. The Noam Brown thing, because I think it's really important.

• 40:19Anthony Pompliano?

  From OpenAI?

• 40:19Speaker 03

  Yes, from, Noam Brown from OpenAI sat down with Dwar Kesh.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  There are, there will be points if people listen to it because Dwar Kesh is so, he can talk to an OpenAI researcher. So one of the smartest AI researchers in the, researchers in the world, he can speak to them at eye to eye level and talk about things. And you're like, I don't understand what that means. I'm the same, like, there's certain things. I'm like, skip to the part I care about. So there's two parts that are really important. So I think what I'm really good at is consuming a lot of information and then picking out the two or three things that are, I want to double click on. And there were two things in there based on the traffic coming to me. One was the hugging face thing, which Noam Brown is a big part of, and he talked about it.

• 41:01Speaker 03

  You go in there and he made this phrase, the most important line in the entire thing. We underestimated the capabilities of AI.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  We won't, yeah, and we won't underestimate it again. I think every parent goes through that. So I want to make sure you have that analogy. At some point, you underestimate your child's ability to do something that you were taking for granted. So I think for people who are scared of, oh, these things are rogue and they're going to go over. No, it was the humans underestimating. It's the most important line in there in terms of, okay, why not? The second part, they spent a lot of time on where the model is now. And they talked about Navi or Stokes. And that is a really important thing. That's where Muse fits in. We've entered in the last two months, a very important point.

• 41:53Speaker 03

  And it gets back to, he admitted, we're in that parabolic side of situational awareness. He said it. The, as, as important as the agents are working together, and he describes how they work together. It's unbelievable. It is the model itself that has reached the levels of being able to solve the problems. So we are at a point of time where breakthroughs are going to be coming that are going to blow your mind. Number one, that is not a time to be bearish on stocks. Science breakthroughs, cancer curing, stuff like that. We're going to be having breakthrough after breakthrough after breakthrough. That's why the anthropic news combined with this. So if you're looking at the hugging face thing going, the world's going to end. It could. And I've heard people describe how it could happen.

• 42:37Speaker 03

  And I can, I actually can get to the point that if you combine humanoids and they're on the planet and rogue people, whatever, I can get there. It's not going to happen. But I think the more important thing is the capabilities of it have reached a level that the productivity, if you look at that situation awareness thing, it's going to go through the roof. One more statement on this, because I said this down in DC. I've actually reached a point of, of thinking it is, it is just as wrong for people to say everyone's going to lose their jobs. Okay. As the other side, which is to be naive enough to then tell the same people, those, they're just scaring you. Nobody's going to lose their job. We're going to create more jobs. That also is not being honest.

• 43:20Speaker 03

  Cause that sets you up to say, I don't have to do anything. You know what the right message is for everyone listening? If you're older and you're near retirement and you don't care about your job. Okay. Yeah. For your kids, though, they need to use AI. End of story. Like if you're not embracing AI, if you're not thinking, if you're, you get smarter, you, whatever everyone thinks of me. I spend a lot of time trying to use AI to get smarter, to use AI to build things, to use AI. I'm a builder. I like to do it. This is going to be an age of entrepreneurship, which means you're going to have freedom. You don't have to work for someone. Work, job are bad words in my opinion. I don't know why people want them. They want them for identity. I get that. Smith, Visser means fisherman. I get it.

• 44:04Speaker 03

  That's what our lives have been about. But don't you want to work for yourself? And don't you want to make money? And don't you want to go through it? I believe investing and letting your money compound at the same time as finding ways to drive income is what it is. It's not about working for someone. It's about how do I make income and turn that into more money? The people who are the wealthiest on the planet, they don't get paid a big paycheck. Their money, they turned into more money. That's your story. That's my story. I turned money into more money by investing it and going through it. And I think if everyone just focuses, and that's why I try to preach on the videos, learn AI, understand the markets, understand crypto, and you're going to be ahead of the game from the people that control most of the world's money. And that's the way you make money is being in front of the people. Back to the Peter Lynch story.

• 44:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoin has hung in there where we started this conversation. It is now seems to be consolidating around 83 to 87,000 dollars. Is that a consolidation before a dump back down into the seventies? Is that a consolidation that then should lead to another breakout? How do you think about Bitcoin over the next six months?

• 45:09Speaker 03

  Well, as I've been saying, I, the reason I wanted to create an index is to separate what's happening in Bitcoin from the ecosystem. Because I think the ecosystem should be benefiting from the agentic side. And Bitcoin should be benefiting from the ecosystem benefiting. I don't believe in the, so at some point in innovation, you go from liquidity to fundamentals. And I believe we're at the fundamental stage. Now Bitcoin doesn't fit in that fundamental argument. It's really more for, hey, we're going to have a lot more developers showing up here. We're going to start building lots of things because Robin Hood chain is driving. Like it's all these different components that are getting people excited about the fundamentals.

• 45:48Speaker 03

  And if I'm right, what should be happening is what's happening, which is tenure rates have now gone higher by almost a hundred basis points. And I think for the quarter, let's assume it's up 60, 70 basis points for the quarter. The quarter is coming to an end soon. And Bitcoin's up 60% for the quarter with rates, with tenure rates going higher. Is that good? Yeah, that's good. And gold's not going higher. This is not a liquidity debasement trade. This is a fundamental trade. So the fact that this morning Solana was trading at 121 and was up another 4%. And it's moving in a different way.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  I think these are all signs that money is looking into the space and they're like, hey, this thing is trading more volume. Where RWA is going to fit in? What's the growth rate of this? Let me look at hyper liquid. I just think people are, or they're doing the homework. And that's why I said the homework is happening at the end of this year, which will be investments for next year. But it's going to show up after we get through the midterms. So I don't know when we're going to start kind of the, the, the rally in stocks that allows this to continue. It could happen in December, it could happen before the midterms and then go sideways. But I definitely think as the mag seven broke out to new highs this weekend, as people are worried about breath and they're worried about all these things. The amount of Google trend, stock market crash, everyone go look at it.

• 47:13Speaker 03

  Go look at the last week, up to the highs of the year. Got to a hundred percent. So as far as I'm concerned, people are worried about something going on because they're seeing all these things on breath. They're seeing oil going higher. They're seeing rates go higher. And I said it in DC, I don't know if I said it on this show, but I'll say it again. I was in China in 2008 in May, just months before Lehman Brothers collapsed. Oil is at 155. Here we are now, 18 years later. Oil is 100, and it's not even 100, but let's just say 100. 155 versus 100. So it's down.

• 47:56Speaker 03

  You know how much household net worth has gone up? You know how much the economy has gone up? You know how much disposable income has gone higher? How can oil matter in the long term? Can it freak people out? Yeah. But if you're listening to people my age or higher, telling you that oil matters, and they're giving you 1970 stuff, just like they told you about tariffs from Smoot Hawley and all the other things that have gone on, and they bring out all of these time periods. These are just people that don't need to be bullish. That's the end story. They want to be bearish because they're not making money in this period because they believe that the world's going to end from the death of the 40 trillion.

• 48:39Speaker 03

  And as I wrote in my tokenization paper this week, there's 195 trillion dollars in the US net, not gross, net. So take out the debt for households, 195 trillion as of June. And 40 trillion of debt. We're worried about the 40 trillion when the households have 195 trillion dollars. Tokenization will turn that 195 trillion into liquidity. That's going to happen over the next five years. So you can doubt it. You can say Jordy's crazy. Just go look up tokenization and what's happening and go read the Blackrock, Blackrock report.

• 49:20Speaker 03

  That's a lot of money that goes to liquidity we never need to print again.

• 49:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Ladies and gentlemen, we're not going to die. I promise the world is going to be better in the future than it is in the past. The doomers are wrong. Jordy is here. I appreciate you watching. Go check him out, Jordy Visser on YouTube. Go subscribe at 22V Research. And I promise if you use AI, your life will improve. See you next time.