#954 Travis Kling On Why The Fed Is Crashing The Market Intentionally

Travis Kling is the Founder & CIO of Ikigai Asset Management In this conversation, we discuss the market crash & the macro environment, where Bitcoin's price may fall to, what he expects the Fed will do in the coming months. the large pool of capital that is pouring into the Crypto industry, and how you can make money during a recession. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/Pomp to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, and the UK. ======================= The world's 2nd largest crypto exchange, OKEx, has dropped the "E" to become OKX, reflecting its evolution from a traditional crypto exchange to a comprehensive, cross-platform crypto services provider. With OKX's decentralized platform and Web3 wallet, MetaX, you have full custody over your crypto. Explore DeFi, NFTs and play-to-earning gaming with the world's most powerful crypto exchange. Visit OKX.com to learn more. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Travis Kling is the Chief Investment Officer at Ike Guy Asset Management. In this conversation Travis and I talk all about the macro environment, Bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, regulation, and what he's seeing out there in the market. I really enjoyed this conversation with Travis and I hope that you guys enjoy it. Before we get into this episode though, I first want to talk about our sponsors. First up is LMAX Digital, the number one institutional crypto exchange. They offer clients the deepest pool of crypto liquidity on the planet, underscored by 100% uptime track record through volatility spikes. They leverage

• 0:44Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:27Anthony Pompliano?

  pay attention. The Pod Pro cover, which goes over your mattress by Eight Sleep, is the most advanced solution on the market for thermal regulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. You can go to eightsleep.com/pomp to check out the Pod Pro cover and you save $150 at checkout. They currently ship within the United States, Canada, and the UK. Now I told you, it changed my life. It helps me sleep deeper, helps me sleep longer. I feel much more refreshed and I have better energy. You want to know how I have relentless energy every single day? Because I sleep on an Eight Sleep. Seriously, go check it out, eightsleep.com/pomp today. This episode is brought to you by OKX. OKEX has dropped the E to become OKX.

• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:55Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:11Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Travis, what's going on, man?

• 3:36Speaker 02

  How are we doing, sir?

• 3:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, you know, just pretty chilled day here, watching Bitcoin seem to fall out of the sky as people freak out.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  Low-key, little low-key Monday here.

• 3:44Anthony Pompliano?

  I mean, great timing for you and I to go ahead and decide that we were gonna do this. Uh, let's start maybe with, uh, like, a little bit of just market structure in general. The last two years has been pretty incredible for Bitcoin, obviously, you know, started 2020, was kind of around $8, $10,000, ran all the way up to $69,000 back in November. What's your general read on like, maybe why some of that occurred? And how much of it is like Bitcoin or crypto market stuff versus just, you know, the Fed stepped in and was gonna pump asset prices and Bitcoin's volatile, so it went up?

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, if I was gonna boil it down to one thing, well, I guess it'd be like two sort of market adages. One is don't fight the Fed, and the other one is it's all one trade.

• 4:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  And don't, don't fight the Fed's been around for at least a decade.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  And it's all one trade. It's been around for the last two years. And basically, what both of those kind of speak to is the same backdrop, which is central bank actions in the current monetary regime have such an overwhelming, overwhelmingly powerful impact on all asset prices. That basically, everything else is almost just an afterthought. And that was the backdrop for the run up after the COVID crash. And that's now, you know, the backdrop heading the other direction as the Fed is is trying to tighten monetary policy.

• 5:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I tend to agree that that is a huge driver, if not the only thing really to pay attention to right here. What I want to do today is talk about Bitcoin, but I want to use it as kind of a discussion point for more of like the macro environment. And a lot of the stuff that's going on there, if you subscribe to this idea of it is all one trade. Bitcoin to me seems like it's the most pure macro asset, maybe. But it's still part of this kind of larger legacy financial market. And so you sent out a recent update. We've pulled a couple of the charts out of there that I thought just were home runs, frankly. And the first one, and I thought it was very telling that this was like the first thing that you led with, was the price of Bitcoin and you overlaid a tweet on top of it.

• 6:00Anthony Pompliano?

  And the tweet says, "The former New York Fed Governor Dudley, if stocks don't fall, the Fed needs to force them." And it was citing a CNBC interview. And that was back in kind of early April, which obviously was part of this like price relief rally after Bitcoin had dropped 50%. And so talk to me a little bit about this like mentality coming from the Fed, whether active officials or former officials of like, they seem to think that they are in control and they know exactly what they're doing.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Yes, I think there's two things I'd speak to about that chart. The first one is just how tightly NASDAQ and Bitcoin are trading with each other. And you can just see that they're overlaid on top of one another and they look like exactly the same. And then the second thing that I added was was that tweet. Uh, which was was basically a former Fed governor writing a Bloomberg op ed article that was entitled like the like what it says in that tweet. If if stocks don't fall, the Fed should force them to fall. Which is, uh, you know, a pretty crazy thing for these boomers to be running around saying. But they are dead set on fighting inflation. They're terrified of inflation.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Inflation is, um, you know, the hot button political item. Uh, the Fed has become deeply politicized. The, the, the, the notion of an independent uh, Federal Reserve, I think, is, is a joke at this point. And, uh, and, and, and, and so the, the, the, the Fed has a few different mechanisms that they think through uh, trying to sort of tame inflation with. But, but one of them is through this mechanism called financial conditions. And there, there's an index you can type into Trading View or Bloomberg, the Financial Conditions Index, which is a combination of a few different things, but

• 7:57Speaker 02

  two of the inputs in into financial conditions are equity prices and, uh, debt prices, fixed income prices. And, and so one way to tighten financial conditions is to make stocks, this price of stocks fall, uh, make the price of bonds fall. And by doing so, the Fed has this view that through sort of wealth effect, people's net worth is going down because they're long stocks, they're long bonds, the prices of those are going down. Their net worth is going down. As their net worth is going down, it makes them uh, buy less things, uh, spend less money.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  And then that has a, you know, uh, an effect of, of, of taming inflation over time. And so that, that was, that was really what, what Dudley was speaking to and, and other, other Fed officials as well, too. And And so it's in the it gets you into this pretty, you know, kind of creepy spot of, you know, the Fed feeling like the best way for them to try and get inflation under control is to just hit everybody's net worth. And they can do that with, uh, you know, maximum jawboning. Uh, and then how much of that jawboning, you know, so jawboning is just this term of like, you know, talking a big game about something and then how much of that talk actually translates

• 9:24Speaker 02

  into action then sort of remains to be seen and is what's going to be front and center over the coming months.

• 9:31Anthony Pompliano?

  So we've got a chart that you put in the update, which also has kind of the pricing of interest rates and the expectation. It's kind of this nice little curve that the market is pricing in up to 10 interest rate hikes and ultimately getting to 3%. We currently sit at point 75%. And given how big the sell off is, I guess, one, just like, how much weight do you actually put into kind of 10 or so interest rate hikes and getting to a 3% interest rate versus there's no way they get there and the Fed will have to capitulate on this plan, you know, well in advance?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Yes. So it would be my pretty high conviction based case that they are not going to get to 10 total rate hikes hikes in 2022 and that the market is going to force them to slow down before they get there. And, you know, part of the reason why I'm, you know, I would say bullish, uh, how would I frame this? Uh, bullish from here through the rest of the year, you know, over a sort of, you know, seven month timeframe is that

• 10:49Speaker 02

  when the market realizes that the Fed is not going to hike that many times, then the expectation of tightening will be greater than the amount of tightening that actually comes through. And that that will provide a backdrop for asset prices to have a relief rally as less heightening than jawboned comes to fruition, if that makes sense.

• 11:17Anthony Pompliano?

  It makes complete sense, and I'm of the same belief. I may take it one step further. I can't remember if I said it was like a 70% confidence level, but I actually think the Fed may have to cut interest rates at least one time this year. So the thought process would be as they continue to hike interest rates, they enter that environment that you just described where they got to slow down, or they skip over a couple of times where they thought they were going to hike. I even think they may go further where, given that midterm elections are coming, if they hike interest rates enough, they push us into a recession, all of a sudden, you know, the only thing worse than high inflation going into an election is an actual recession. And so do they give us kind of like a gut check? Do they say, hey, you know what? Actually,

• 12:00Anthony Pompliano?

  let's cut one time to kind of give some confidence back to the market to try to equalize where we're at? What's the level of maybe confidence or thought process that that could occur?

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it would not be my base case that they would cut this year, certainly not out of the realm of possibility. I mean, you can just see it in just in prices today and over. It's worth mentioning that this monthly went out, uh, May 1st. So this is kind of nine days old, and everything's gotten much worse in the last nine days. So like every single one of these charts like looks meaningfully more puky right this second than it did nine days ago when this monthly came out. And I think that looking at how much the market is forcing the Fed's hand right now, I think that they want to hurry

• 12:56Speaker 02

  up and get back to a quote unquote neutral rate to get back to 2%, but they just hiked 50 bips. I think it's highly likely that they hike another 50 bips in June, and then another 50 bips in, probably another 50 bips in July, and that'll get us to nearly 2% interest rates, right around 2%. And then there's no meeting in August, but there's the Jackson Hole, you know, very large kind of meeting of the minds every year at Jackson Hole with the Fed. That's at the end of August. And then you have a Fed meeting in the middle of September. And I think by the time you get to Jackson Hole or that Fed meeting in September,

• 13:40Speaker 02

  you could have a setup where asset prices have, you know, continued to fall a lot. And then I think there's going to be all eyes on leading inflation and economic growth indicators. And it's my, you know, I would say medium conviction base case that all of those are going to show month over month declines, you know, basically starting last month. And then we've had peak inflation and you're going to see those, uh, those leading indicators, you know, continue to roll over, over the coming months. And that's going to give the cover that the Fed needs under their, uh, um, mantra of being data dependent.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  And so, uh, by being data dependent, they'll be able to, uh, slow, slow tightening and, uh, and then probably pause tightening. You know, maybe they go 25 bips in July or in September instead of 50 bips. And then the market will be watching all of that and be sort of centering around, uh, this slowdown. And like I said, it's all one trade and don't fight the Fed. And so a slowdown in tightening relative to expectations, these 10 rate hikes, I think, provide the backdrop for relief rally later on this year.

• 15:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it makes complete sense. Um, one of the things that I keep going back to is this idea of, uh, if it is all one trade, how much pain will they allow for the average person to suffer? Uh, and so recession, I think most people are like, oh, that sounds bad. Uh, but obviously when things get overheated, people make really stupid financial decisions. Uh, and we've got a chart here that you included in the update, uh, that Bloomberg had, where they had a model 6040 portfolio and they're showing that, uh, it is having its worst year since 2008. And so if already in 2022, 6040 portfolio, which is kind of the standard in, you know, kind of the retail asset management game.

• 15:44Anthony Pompliano?

  If that's having its worst year and they continue to hike, uh, it seems like this could get really nasty. In that 6040 portfolio, is there any framework or thought process that you use to kind of say like, here's the max pain that is allowed? Or is it literally, there is no kind of lower bound and hey, they're going to keep hiking the interest rates. So they get inflation and if you're the sucker taking the, taking it on the chin, then you know, you're the sucker.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so a couple of things I'll say on that, you know, one, that chart you just showed looks way worse nine days later. So I would, I'd say that's, you know, that's the first thing I would say.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  On, on a recession, I think it remains to be seen whether or not the Fed can engineer like a kiss to zero GDP growth and then kind of back higher, a quote unquote, soft landing. Or whether or not they're just going to hammer this thing straight into a recession. I, I, I think when you look at the totality of the way the Fed has acted over the last couple of decades, it is not my base case that they would. When you look at like what they have done, what they can do and what they're incentivized to do.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Hammering this thing straight into a recession does not make a ton of sense to me. It makes more sense to me that they would try and maximum jawbone right now, which, which they're doing. You know, you've got these, you've got Dudley writing an op ed saying, we got to crash stocks. A lot of these other Fed officials are, when they talk, you know, a lot of, a lot of real hawkish jawboning. And that they're, they're really trying to jawbone inflation down over the coming months. And economic growth is going to go with it. And if they can get that into an okay spot, then they can just kind of back off. And maybe you can kind of get this like kiss of a zero GDP growth and then back up and then resuming.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  You know, so you know, so like prior to covid, we were in the longest, slowest economic expansion in US history with a pretty low unemployment and very low inflation. Uh, the, the, the, the Fed was barely able to kind of keep its 2% inflation target. But that was a tremendous time to own any kind of assets. If you owned any sort of assets over that period of time, you did really well. And the Fed's constituents are boomers and boomers own all the assets. That's a very good time to be a boomer. And I think they want, I, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't want to recreate that now,

• 18:35Speaker 02

  which is why, which is part of the reason why I think it's my, it's my base case that they would just try and manage through this sort of soft landing. And then you go on pause with the Fed funds at, you know, somewhere around 2%. And you get inflation back down to, you know, to, two and a half, maybe 3%. And that that's a fine outcome. And, and you know, in terms of things that I, I, I would be watching, that the Fed might be watching, I know they're paying a lot of attention to financial conditions, which like I said, can tighten through the decline of, of stock and bond prices. The, the Fed gets very nervous with, uh, short-term funding markets.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Um, financial markets globally, uh, this is a debt-based, uh, uh, financial system globally. Ton of debt, uh, it all runs by borrowing lots of money. And there's the short-term funding market where, you know, many, many, many billions of dollars are borrowed, uh, overnight in between banks and financial institutions and from the Fed and to the Fed and back and forth. All of that plumbing has to work seamlessly all of the time. And when there's even a small hiccup in that short-term funding market, those hiccups metastasize into everything else very quickly. The Fed is terrified of that.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  And they, that is the sort of thing that they will not let get out of hand for long at all before they step in. Because this whole thing's a big rickety piece of shit. And when the short-term funding markets start to show stress, that is a sign that the Jenga tower is looking quite wobbly. And, and so that would be something to pay attention to.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  And then I think I just, I, I just look at the MOVE index, which is the, um, the MOVE index is like the VIX for bonds. It's like the volatility of, of, of yields, basically. And the MOVE index is in a tough spot right now. It is very elevated. Um, and if that were to see a spike, uh, that's the type of thing that, uh, sort of, uh, precedes the type of hiccup in short-term funding markets. So tho- those are the sorts of things that are sort of the flashing red alarm bell going off type of stuff. Um, and they are looking on the verge of, of having problems right now. And like, look, you may fast forward a couple of weeks and all that looks way, way worse.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  And, you know, we may be done way sooner that, you know, than, than, than I, I would think. But it's just, it's the kind of thing worth paying attention to every day.

• 21:20Anthony Pompliano?

  So let's take your base case of kind of, we end up somewhere around 2% and then they kind of chill out a little bit. Uh, Bitcoin today is trading somewhere around $32,500, $33,000. And I'll use Bitcoin as a proxy for, uh, the crypto market overall. Um, when you think about that base case, how do you balance in your head, uh, macro impact on crypto prices with what I'll call more of the like micro-market structure of crypto? And so using Bitcoin as the example, we know realized price is some Somewhere 24, 25,000 dollars. We know that, you know, 60, 65% of Bitcoin hasn't moved in a year.

• 22:00Anthony Pompliano?

  But we also know that the Fed is, you know, basically trying to nuke asset prices. And so like, when you're evaluating what could happen, and it's all probabilistic, but like, how much emphasis do you put on macro and Fed activity versus, you know, Bitcoin or crypto people are crazy, they're holding these assets. There is no price at which they'll sell and like, there's some safety there. Like, how do you balance those?

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, we definitely look at both in our investment process. And we look at the, I'd say the crypto, micro market structure from a pretty quantitative perspective. And then we have a more kind of qualitative overlay that incorporates both kind of crypto qualitative, fundamental, you know, news flow type of stuff and also macro. And macro is major league in the driver seat right now. You know, I think the first chart you put up about the, you know, how tightly Bitcoin's correlated to the NASDAQ proves that point. I don't see a reason why,

• 23:07Speaker 02

  over the immediate term, that Bitcoin would, or crypto broadly, would be able to decouple from macro. You know, it's all one trade is, that's as locked in now as it ever has been. I do think that when Bitcoin's 50% off of its recent high, like it is right now, I do think you get into a situation where, you know, the supply, demand imbalance in terms of the people, the market participants that are willing to sell Bitcoin, more than 50% off of the top, relative to the market participants that are willing to dollar cost average,

• 23:50Speaker 02

  buying Bitcoin 50 plus percent off of the top, that that imbalance does start to swing, you know, much more heavily in favor of the buyers. And we're, we're very clearly in that zone right now.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  We're, we're coming up on a spot that's pretty important. We're, we're a couple thousand dollars below current prices, the late July 2021 lows, that Bitcoin held. If, if we were to lose that level, Which would happen with a backdrop of, uh, you know, even more stress in traditional markets than we're seeing right now. Some of those stress points that I was just talking about a second ago. Um, you know, I think it could get pretty gappy to the downside. If we lose that, that 2930 K level. And you could see a lot of Bitcoin, spot Bitcoin change hands down there in the kind of,

• 24:49Speaker 02

  kind of mid twenties range for Bitcoin. And, and that's usually the type of capitulatory price action that marks cyclical bottoms. And, you know, I think there's, there's a decent chance we could see that, that in, you know, coming up. Uh, but those would be, you know, generational buying opportunities. That's like, you know, you're buying for your kids' kids at $24,000 Bitcoin. And, and, and so, uh, one of the things that makes this setup different than prior setups is that the cat is out of the bag in terms of what asset, asset class you want to own.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  When the Fed eventually slows down on tightening or goes on pause. You know, and then eventually sort of goes back to a, a looser monetary policy. That's very different than the like 18, 19 bear market. When the vast majority of, of institutional capital wasn't involved in this at all. And didn't have any idea how to think about this asset class. I, I, I think that makes for, for just a very different backdrop. Uh, just the, the cat's out of the bag. Like when the Fed goes on pause, there's nothing on planet earth. It's going to move faster off of the bottom than crypto. I'm highly convicted of that. I think a lot of smart money is highly convicted of that.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  And, and this, this tightening phase that the Fed is in. Uh, everybody knows that this is a pit stop. Until you go on pause and then eventually cut rates again. And so all of that combines into like a pretty interesting situation where. Yeah, you know, it's, it's, you know, stocks are nuking right now. Traditional is nuking right now. Uh, crypto is nuking right now. But if you're not a forced seller, uh, this is a terrible time to be selling crypto, to be selling Bitcoin. And if you got cash on the sidelines, you know, you're setting up for like a, an incredible buying opportunity.

• 26:52Anthony Pompliano?

  So i- it's fascinating to kind of hear you talk through this.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Not, not, not financial advice.

• 26:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Of course, not financial advice. Nothing on this show is financial advice. Entertainment purposes only. Uh, one, one of the things that ends up being, uh, really interesting is if we go back to 2018. Uh, and we look Bitcoin had peaked in 2017 at $20,000. It had drawn down and it was sitting somewhere around $6,000 or so, $5,000. So it had drawn down like 75%. And I think a lot of people were like, oh, i- it's down 75%. Like this is the bottom, quote unquote, and, uh, and they're getting very excited. Obviously it puked all the way down and eventually hit, I think it was like 3,200, give or take. Uh, and it was, uh, very much a puke, right? There was kind of this grind down to 75% drawdown and then you hit that 3,200.

• 27:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, and then pretty much from there, once you hit the bottom, grind it up and, and everyone knows kind of what happened from there. Is your expectation from a market standpoint that, uh, these types of markets will just grind down, eventually hit some bottom and, and then recover? Or do you think that there is kind of that puking or that final capitulation that occurs? Uh, that could, uh, send prices down, you know, I don't know, maybe a couple thousand dollars in, in one kind of rabid move? Or like, how do you think about just the, the expectation you would have for, uh, what will eventually be the bottom? Whether it's now or, you know, some lower price?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Well, it's for a bunch of different reasons. The setup here is not comparable to November 2018. It's just, it's just not the same for a bunch of different reasons. Um, it's a much bigger asset class. It's a much more institutionalized asset class. That was a almost entirely retail driven market. Um, and.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  You had this hangover from 2017 that was much more excessive than the price action that we had in 2021, in 2020 and 2021. Especially in Bitcoin, I would say. And so

• 29:01Speaker 02

  I, I, I struggle to compare the two. I struggle to compare the 6K level that we bounced off of in 2018 a bunch of times before we broke in November and got cut in half. I, I, I don't think that's comparable to like, say, this 29K level from July 2021. That's not to say that I don't think we can lose 29K this time around. Because if the stress gets bad enough in traditional, which there's quite a decent chance that it could, we could lose that 29K level.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  But

• 29:37Speaker 02

  the, and it could, like I said, it could, it could get pretty puky.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  But the, I think the ability and the willingness for the market to look through the short-term volatility and that short-term pukiness to, to look at this asset class broadly and Bitcoin specifically and say, this stuff is all much higher a few years from now. Just makes now incomparable to to like that 2018 timeframe when like, you know, people just thought all this stuff could go away after that, after that November 2018 price crash. And one of the things that I, I remind people of a lot, because in this monthly market update that we've been looking at charts in, I, I had these monthly highlights, just like a bullet point of like

• 30:28Speaker 02

  my subjective view on the most impactful sort of news announcements over the course of, of the month. And one of the things that I track pretty closely, that's just been astonishing, is the amount of venture capital coming into this space.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  And the magnitude, the breadth and depth of the capital raises for projects. And then the amount of of VC fundraises, so like the funds themselves. And then the projects that they've been funding. And you put that together and just like the aggregate amount of capital, permanent capital. That's permanent capital that's coming into this space. Uh, it's stunning and completely different. And you're talking about hundreds of projects that have, that already have years of runway today. And then VCs with billions and billions of dry powder that they're sitting on today. If not, another dollar is raised into crypto VC.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  And all of that is going to be deployed over the course of this year and next year. And the year after that, if not another dollar of permanent capital comes into this space. And it is that capital that will, uh, fund the projects and the innovation. That will drive additional adoption. That will, you know, put a bottom in for this market and cause all of this to head higher than it ever has been before. And like, I'm about as highly convicted on that as I can be on anything.

• 32:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I, I tend to think that, uh, everything involved with the fear of the market is very, very short term. Uh, we could be talking weeks, right? I, I don't think that, uh, this continues for six months and then we get a bottom or anything like that. Like it feels, uh, maybe we're not quite there yet, but definitely there's way more fear than, uh, uh, than usual. And, and so that usually tends to be a pretty good, uh, indicator. Talk to me about, uh, there's two different elements of the market. I see people talking about, uh, on the internet a lot. Uh, I don't know if you necessarily have unique thoughts here, but, but just, I think people hearing kind of how you view them. Given, uh, the investment strategy that you all have at Ike Guy. The first is Michael Saylor. He's accumulated a ton of Bitcoin.

• 32:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, he recently put, uh, what I would consider a pretty small position, it seems like where he borrowed against some Bitcoin and bought extra. Do you worry at all that there's like a price where Bitcoin could get so low that he would become a forced seller, accelerate downward price pressure, or like, like, what's kind of the the risk maybe of somebody like a Michael Saylor in MicroStrategy to a market from if you're just looking at price, right? Obviously, there's a ton of benefit. Like, how do you just evaluate what that impact would be on the market or what you're paying attention to there?

• 33:23Speaker 02

  So a couple of things I'll say on Saylor. One, after their latest earnings call, it was like widely misquoted or taken out of context of what their situation is in terms of being like liquidated or that sort of thing. They they could have a margin call on that separate, I think it was, I think it bought $200 million worth of Bitcoin in a separate entity that has some covenants around it. They could get margin called on that, but they're also in the position to contribute more Bitcoin from their balance

• 34:02Speaker 02

  sheet into that entity to shore up the collateral requirements for that. And so it's not a liquidation or like a, you know, death knell margin call type of situation like people were talking about. Um, you know, so I would say that. And then I would also just say, though, that like crypto has a tendency to, um, like it has fat tails from like a statistical probability perspective. And crypto just has this tendency to do things that you thought were incredibly

• 34:41Speaker 02

  unlikely or virtually impossible. And to have those types of events come to fruition at a higher likelihood than you would assume. And that's what I mean by like fat tails relative to like a normal distribution type of deal. And so, you know, I would never say never, um, with something like that, but I think it's a very low probability. I would also think that if Saylor ever got into some kind of

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Tough position where I don't even know what that would look like. You know, where he contributed Bitcoin from the balance sheet into this covenant restricted. You know, side vehicle that he has that he borrowed. Like that whole situation, there's just a tremendous amount of like extremely well capitalized Bitcoin bulls. That like in the same way that, you know, El Salvador's Bitcoin bonds before, you know, before we had stress in the in the bond market and they put the volcano bonds on hold like that. It tho- tho- those bit those El Salvador Bitcoin bonds were like oversubscribed.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  And my guess was they are oversubscribed, at least in part by people that are just very bullish Bitcoin. And see the developments happening in El Salvador is being good for Bitcoin broadly and willing to support that. I would guess you would have the same type of support available to Sailor if he were to get into a tight spot like that. So.

• 36:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I think that's actually a really interesting way to look at it as to. There's just certain things that happen in the market. Regardless of the economic kind of underwriting of it. There's people who say this is good for Bitcoin and therefore I will participate, whether it's bonds, etc. And then if you actually can overlay, it is a good economic decision based on their underwriting. Then there's just even more folks who are willing to to kind of step in. So that makes sense. Another group or person that seems to be in a similar but different situation is the Luna Foundation. And this idea of trying to peg U S T to to $1. How do you think about the similarities or the differences with Sailor, but also kind of the potential risks?

• 37:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Or things that you're looking at for market and the price of Bitcoin as as that kind of unfolds in that situation?

• 37:07Speaker 02

  I I think they are somewhat comparable. And I would broadly ascribe more risk to the Luna situation than I would to Sailor situation. I mean, we're you're dealing with. A, you know, sort of algorithmic, algorithmically controlled, but also backed stablecoin. It's pretty incomparable relative to any other stablecoin that's been in an existence in crypto. There is risk present there. Um, but I still think it's like, you know, relatively small. Um, and they just had an announcement that came out overnight

• 37:52Speaker 02

  about some stability mechanisms that they're putting in place. There are several stunningly well-capitalized entities that are in support of, uh, this Luna situation that are the types of entities that, uh, have, uh, a very outsized influence on just what the crypto market is going to do broadly. Like, it's like, you put Jump and 3AC into a room and you go, how mu- you know, this room controls how much of what happens in crypto broadly. And it's like, it's like a real, a real amount of what happens in crypto is a function of

• 38:34Speaker 02

  like what Jump and 3AC decide is going to happen. And, and, you know, these guys look like they're in, in, you know, a position to be very supportive of this thing. But it is, like I said, a newfangled, you know, type of deal. And so there's, there's risk present, and I would say a higher degree of risk, um, present than the Sailor situation. But it's not my base case that you're going to see some, some kind of blow up there.

• 38:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. I, I tend to think that that's probably a, a very fair analysis of like, there is more risk because of the peg, et cetera. Unlikely that there's some massive, uh, blow up. But I think your point about why there's a lack of blow up, uh, is, uh, mispriced by people in the market, right? Seeing a jump, seeing a 3AC, uh, and some of it may just be like, folks in the Bitcoin community, uh, may not understand or recognize, uh, the size, the enthusiasm, the, uh, level of participation from those groups, uh, in a lot of this stuff. Uh, and then some of it is just, uh, almost Feels like there's people in various communities that are just cheering for destruction of those types of things, right?

• 39:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, kind of like I get to say I told you so, which is like a very kind of weird exotic development of, rather than like the open mindedness.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I call it, I call it big short syndrome.

• 39:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, explain.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, like it's, it's big short syndrome. It's like people are begging for these enormous blowups because the people that shorted the subprime crisis in 2008 were like heralded as such heroes. Like Michael Burry is like a great example of this, right? And Michael Burry like hung on to this Tesla short for however long. And I mean, I think got like blown out of the water on it basically before it ended up working, which is, uh, there's a lot of irony to that, but, um, people are like always looking to like be the like sky is falling bear and then like nail that trade.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  And then they get to like, you know, parade that they like nailed some big short type of thing. And like, you know, that mentality has sent a ton of people to the poorhouse over the last decade or so. Or, you know, looking back over, um, the history of financial markets over, over many decades. Uh, and, and, uh, you know, being, being overly bullish and highly levered sends people to the poorhouse as well, too. Um, you know, which I guess like, what is it like? Whatever bulls and bears both get to eat, but pigs get slaughtered or something like that. So, yeah.

• 41:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And I guess part of this also is there's a bunch of folks who, uh, outside of the Bitcoin community, today we saw Norrell Rabini, I guess, is working on like a tokenized dollar cryptocurrency. Uh, there's plenty of other folks who are still skeptic, bearish, uh, flat out, maybe even shorting the market. Uh, but it does feel like, uh, you're starting to get one, some specialization in crypto. So there's some people who Or Bitcoin, there are some people who are part of Ethereum or the smart contract platforms or NFTs, etc. 2016, 17, maybe even in 2018, like you could just be, I'm a crypto investor and you could pretty much touch or understand most of the market. I do think that that bifurcation

• 41:58Anthony Pompliano?

  is changing a little bit. But with that comes this feeling of like a zero sum game where people say like, oh, NFTs are going to work, but X is not going to work. Or, you know, Ethereum is going to work, Bitcoin won't work, or vice versa, etc. Like, how do you think about specialization in the market today? And then also, is it a positive sum game where like, all of this could work, or some of it could not work, and some of it does work, but like, they're not necessarily tied together as much as they used to be?

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Yes, I mean, tribalism's been around for a long time in crypto, forever, right?

• 42:34Speaker 02

  It doesn't strike me that tribalism is any stronger today than it has been. It's just always been strong. And I think that even within the tribalism, there is a view, you know, I guess, like, the most extreme examples of tribalism, there isn't this view that like, hey, we all, we can all win here. But I think, once you get outside of the like, tail of like, the extreme tribalism, that even Bitcoin fans and ETH fans and Solana fans and NFT fans, the large majority of those, even if they have their favorites, can still look at the thing and go,

• 43:17Speaker 02

  this whole pie has a lot more room to grow. And there are strong structural inflows into this asset class and this technology, you know, directional flows, to my point earlier about the amount of venture capital coming into this space. There's, there's structural inflows into crypto that, um, yeah, you have outflows and people are worried about the Fed in the short term, but over any kind of medium, longer term horizon, that's up and to the right, super highly convicted on that. And then also, like, there's no other asset

• 43:58Speaker 02

  There's no, there's, there's nothing that derives more of its value from network effect than crypto. It's, it's an even more pure expression of network effect than like through value creation than even a social media platform. And so to that end, it's like if more people are coming to crypto.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  You know, even if you're a Bitcoin fan and more people are coming to ETH. Or you're a Solana fan and more people are coming to like ETH NFTs. That broad pie growing adds to the value of the asset class as a whole. Because all of it is so much driven, the value of all of it is so much driven by, by network effect. And so there's plenty of room for like everybody to win from that type of setup.

• 44:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I, I tend to agree that that is, uh, true. One of the most popular questions I get right now is how people can make money in a recession. As you think about asset prices falling, the Fed stepping in with higher and higher interest rate increases. How do you think about positioning a portfolio? Is there psychological things that you look at? Are there frameworks you use or are there tactical things that you're employing in terms of actually being able to make money during a recessionary period?

• 45:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I guess recession is an economic term. I think recession versus like market, uh, strong market, like asset price decline. I think of those things as two different things because we could end up in a recession in like Q1 of 2023 or Q2 of 2023. And, uh, like the NASDAQ could be way, way higher off of its lows when that recession hits. Because asset prices and economic growth are like two separate things. And asset prices are so strongly a function of what the Fed is doing.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  And by the time the Fed goes on pause. Or the Fed slows tightening, which will absolutely rip all asset prices with crypto leading the way. That could still be sort of like potentially too late to cause to like keep us from dipping into a shallow inflation or a shallow recession rather. So I would, I would, you know, kind of delineate between those two things. In terms of positioning, you know, it just kind of depends on what your outlook or like what your, I guess, goal for your, you know, everybody's in different positions with their, you know, I think there's a lot of just like kind of everyday retail folks that, that, that are watching this.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  You know, have some cash on the sidelines, you know, now's not a good time to be using leverage at all. Knife catching is not a good idea for retail traders. It's like never a good idea. If you've got cash on the sidelines, when crypto is more than 50% off of its top, starting the dollar cost average into, uh, you know, buying more Bitcoin, buying more ETH. Historically, that has worked out incredibly well. I think that there's no reason to think it's not going to work really well right now.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  And, you know, I think the fundamentals of this space are unequivocally getting stronger. And that is not being reflected in price action right now. But that is a temporary disconnection as monetary policy from central banks is in the driver's seat. But that will pass and it might pass sooner rather than later. But that will pass and fundamentals will still, will, you know, move back into the driver's seat. And so there's, there's nothing to be worried about from a longer term perspective about the viability of this asset class.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Crypto broadly is going to continue to eat the world and we will get with just a small amount of hindsight, we'll look back on this. Like we look back on a bunch of other pullbacks that, you know, people barely remember. But you just want to make sure that you're in a position to keep playing the game. You got it. You gotta be in a position to be able to continue to play the game. Because the asset class broadly is going to create trillions of dollars of value over the course of, you know, this decade and the next, and probably the one after that.

• 48:40Anthony Pompliano?

  That uh, that makes sense to me. The number one question I'm getting from all of the live viewers is, uh, they want to hear, uh, your thought process behind selling Bitcoin for other assets. And some of the more tactical stuff you're doing. I don't know what you're allowed to say and not say from, uh, like a regulatory standpoint. Uh, but anything that you can provide, uh, in terms of, uh, some insight there. I think people are, are super excited to, to hear from you.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think the one thing I'll say is, so I went, I went on, um, uh, we actually talked about you, Pop. I went on Yano's podcast like two weeks ago. Empire podcast. And we were talking about all the way back in September 2018, when Yano was like, doing the camera and the microphone setup for the pop podcast back then.

• 49:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Correct.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah. So we reminisced on that and how far those guys have come. Uh, but on, on that, on that podcast, I talked about this ETH merge. Uh, this kind of, this kind of ETH merge, uh, catalyst, which in my view, is the most significant, most telegraphed catalyst in the history of crypto. Um, and I think if, you know, which is like a pretty hyperbolic thing to say. But I think if you look back on the history of crypto, for something to be a bigger catalyst, the more significant, more telegraph catalyst than this,

• 50:06Speaker 02

  it would either have to be something in Bitcoin or something in ETH, because if it was something in any other asset, it just wouldn't have, by definition, wouldn't be as significant as being in those two. And like,

• 50:18Speaker 02

  The havings in Bitcoin are different because they're programmatic. And they're also just less significant in my view, relative to this ETH merge setup, which is ETH going deflationary, ETH turning into a yield generating asset, and ETH moving to ESG friendly. And I think we all know what a behemoth ESG is. And it's a separate conversation about the legitimacy of that movement. But I think we can all agree that it's a big movement. And people are focused on, on ESG type of stuff. And a move from, from proof of work to proof of stake is a step towards ESG.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  And it, it, and it comes at a time when ETH, there's never been more institutional eyeballs on ETH. There's never been a, a, a greater willingness and ability of institutional capital to buy ETH in size than there is today. It is not the same as the COVID crash. It's not the same as the COVID crash. ETH went, like, what did ETH get down to on the lows? It was incredible. Did it get down to 200 bucks on the COVID crash lows?

• 51:34Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't remember the COVID crash lows. I know in the 2018 crash, I think it got down 70 bucks, 75 bucks. COVID was what?

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Holy cow. At the absolute low, ETH got down to $90 on the COVID crash. Nine, $90. You know, the market cap was like, you know, when ETH was $90, the market cap was like probably, I don't know, $10 billion or something crazy like that, right? Like incredibly low. Like you can't, uh, uh, institutional capital could not buy ETH in the spring of 2020. It was just too small. It was too unproven. It was too volatile. And the, the, um, just the, the, um,

• 52:21Speaker 02

  The thesis was not well understood for ETH at that period of time and all of that has changed a lot since then. Uh, okay. Yeah. So on the lows Ethereum's market cap got down to $13 billion. Institutional capital is not buying a $13 billion asset. They cannot. It's not possible for them. Uh, whereas now, you know, ETH is a uh, $285 billion asset. Institutional capital can buy a $285 billion asset. And so I think all of that combines together with a setup for, and, and, and look, there is risk that inflation remains stubbornly high.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  And if we go back to that orange and black chart that we just looked at, 10 rate hikes in 2022. If we can't get these leading economic growth and inflation indicators to roll over, the Fed, I think is just going to have to keep tightening. And if that ends up being the case, you don't want to be long any of this stuff, uh, because prices are just going to keep going down. And you know, you increase the likelihood of like a really nasty outcome that forces things to go on, on pause and pushes us into recession in a full blown, you know, nasty market crash in all asset prices. Um, but that's not my base case. But there, there, there is a risk that inflation could remain stubbornly high.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Ukraine definitely presents risk there. Uh, the China lockdowns definitely present risk there. Although, um, the people that I talk to that understand the Chinese economy the best, there's, there's not agreement on whether or not China lockdowns are inflationary or deflationary for like US inflation measurements. There's just not agreement on that. So I think it remains to be seen on that. But there's, there's, there, there's risk to my view for sure. But my, my base case is that inflation and economic growth indicators are going to roll over in the coming months and then it sets up for the Fed to

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Decelerate tightening relative to expectations either at Jackson Hole or at the September, mid-September FOMC meeting, which lines up really well with when the ETH merge is going to be put on. And you put those two things together and it has a potential for incredibly explosive price action in crypto broadly, but ETH in particular. Dude, if they go on pause like plus or minus a month of the merge, ETH is going to teleport. It is going to teleport. And I think it looks like ETH is in heavy accumulation mode right now. And

• 55:13Speaker 02

  you're going to get to like the depths of the summer when there's no eyeballs on this market, when trading volumes are at the absolute lowest and people are getting all bared up. And all the spot ETH is going to be, it's going to be held by people that aren't in the mood to sell it anywhere close to the bottom. And you can just, and I remind people like on the, on the, on the late July 2021 bottom, which didn't really have much of a particular catalyst to it. I mean, you could look at the B word conference with Elon and Jack Dorsey, that did kind of put the bottom in. ETH went up 120% in a straight fricking line off of the bottom. And that was nowhere near as bullish of a backdrop

• 55:58Speaker 02

  as what we potentially have with ETH merge lining up with the Fed decelerating tightening. And so that's one of the most attractive setups I've seen. You're going to have every traditional investment fund on the planet that's going to be trying to make up their entire year, which has been going real shitty for almost all of them up until this point. And like, if you're trying to find the fastest horse, like to borrow Paul Tudor Jones moniker, BTC will move real well off the bottom as well, too. I think ETH could just like, you know.

• 56:31Anthony Pompliano?

  So did you basically in some way say, hey, look, Bitcoin is

• 56:37Anthony Pompliano?

  What it's been, there's market structure, etc. ETH, for the reasons you just laid out, you just think has more upside to it. And so you guys basically shifted. And then, did you also go look at other assets as well? Or like, how did you think about outside of the Bitcoin ETH? You know, kind of blue chips, if you will. Did you guys go take a look at like, oh, if everything goes up, the things that are the smallest cap will go up more? Or how would you, I guess, analyze that part?

• 57:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, we don't really play that game, so to speak. And I think you gotta be cautious with liquidity. And as you move outside of BTC and ETH, very quickly, that stuff, when the market's pulling back a lot, and when you're in a, you know, when traditional looks like shit, like it does right now, that stuff goes no bid to a degree that like, you know, that stuff goes down 50%, and then it goes down another 50%, you know? And then it might go down another 50%, right? And so I think you gotta be real careful moving down market cap. The two things I'll say is on that, one, we've been spending a ton of time in Metaverse and Bitcoin gaming, play to earn, in-game assets.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  We've been spending a ton of time on that, and are captivated by that space. It's very early.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  Those assets, the way the in-game economies work right now, it's like, Paul, you and I, you and I talked about this before. It's like, I used to say like Bitcoin's the most reflexive asset on the planet. Well, like, play to earn is like definitely more reflexive than Bitcoin. Like, it's inherent in the nature of the way those in-game economies work, that it's just very, very reflexive. So to the downside, it just gets like real nasty in a hurry. So. That's not where I think we're in the mood to deploy capital in anticipation of a bottom. But then all this stuff's gonna, it's all gonna probably run harder than everything else off the bottom as well, too.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  Um, but, but you wanna, you wanna see which of these projects sort of make it out of, you know, some really nasty price action and actually can retain users and grow users and compel people to get back into these in-game economies. So we're, we're paying a lot of attention to the innovation that's happening in, in Metaverse and Play to Earn. Uh, mostly from the sidelines in terms of capital deployment, but we're paying a lot of attention to it. And then I think the other thing you would look at is like, if, if ETH runs hard, what happens with the rest of the Layer Ones? What happens with Solana, Luna, Avalanche, Cosmos, Dot? Um, Near, like what happens with all of these?

• 59:26Speaker 02

  And I think it remains to be seen. Um, I think historically, you know, you could see ETH run hard and then have some kind of rotation into other Layer Ones. The exact timing of that is like definitely difficult to say. Trying to time that is like, you know, not really a game that I would suggest most people try and play. Um, but you know, ETH's, ETH's market cap is, so, so like I'll, I'll give you like an example, right? Like, so ETH's market cap is, let's call it 300 billion right now. So let's say it doubles from here. Uh, that would be like 5,000 ETH, a little less. And that would be like 600 billion dollar market cap.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  Uh, and then, and then let's look at like Solana, for example. So Solana has a 23 billion dollar market cap. So if ETH doubles to a 600 billion dollar market cap and Solana also doubles, then ETH would be 600 billion and, uh, Solana would be 46 billion market cap. But, and then like Solana relative to ETH, that would be flat over that period of time, right? Because like they both doubled, right? And I think at some point, the market looks at that relative value spread and they go, okay, ETH is $600 billion, Solana's, you know, $46 billion, you know, whatever,

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  that's, that's 6, 7% relative market cap. That spread's too wide and it should be something closer to 10% or 15% or 20% of ETH's market cap. I think there's a potential for that type of relative value trade to emerge and the timing of that, you know, remains to be seen. And like I said, that's like, uh, that's a pretty tricky game to play. So.

• 1:01:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it, um, it, it feels like there's just so much, uh, to underwrite as you expand the kind of investable universe. Uh, and I, I think this kind of idea of a market structure, and it brings this kind of full circle in this conversation to like, it may all be one trade, right? In terms of, uh, it seems like crypto, uh, goes down together, it goes up together, uh, but you have to start to underwrite, uh, risk and reward. And how do you do that is, uh, is pretty difficult. Um, before I let you go, uh, I, well, I have two questions. One, uh, I think that you were in LA and I think you've moved now to Texas. Uh, what's, uh, what's the

• 1:01:56Anthony Pompliano?

  geography arbitrage or whatever that, uh, uh, kind of thought process there? I'm sad you didn't move to Miami, but I understand. I think you're from Texas. Uh, and then also, uh, one of our sponsors is Eight Sleep. What's, uh, what's the sleep schedule looking like these days now that, uh, that you're back in Texas, even though the market is, uh, literally as we're talking in a free fall and, uh, we're just watching everything bleed everywhere?

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. So did, did move full-time to Austin, November last year. My girlfriend and I were doing Airbnbs for a while last year in Austin. Bought a house in Austin. Here full-time. I'm from College Station, which is like two hours north of here. My family's still there. My mom would have killed me if I had, if I had, if I had moved from California state taxes to a zero state tax environment and I'd gone to Miami instead of Texas, my mom just would have killed me.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, and Austin, Austin's great. Love, love Austin. Um, enjoying my time down here, enjoying the proper suburb life, like, like rapidly adapting to the proper suburb life after spending a decade in like Venice and then Manhattan and then Chicago before that. Um, so enjoying my time down here. And then I have an Eight Sleep, uh, and love it. And, um,

• 1:03:12Speaker 02

  Pretty focused on sleep. I've got this like a Garmin watch.

• 1:03:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  You like know this thing. It's got a pretty, pretty good sleep tracker on it. Uh, I'm pretty good about getting at least seven to seven and a half hours a night. Um, I need to move my bedtime up a little earlier. I'm doing about 12:30 to 8:30 right now. I need to get that to like 11 to seven because there's um, some of the like circadian rhythm type of stuff like I should be. But it's, I don't know. I've always been a little bit more of a, of a night owl, but um, yeah, I, I, I'm super focused on sleep and, and I think uh, when I skip it, I feel it immediately and um, you know, I'm 37 years old. I'm not getting any younger. So.

• 1:04:00Anthony Pompliano?

  You, you, you look 22 and uh, you're already tracking everything. That's

• 1:04:07Anthony Pompliano?

  uh, as long as you're tracking everything, right? Like, I, I think that part of it is uh, once you know what works for you. Like everybody's different, but once you know what works for you, like to your point, if you stray from what works, you feel it. Like once, once you get into it, right? And, and I'm the same way. It's like, if I uh, you know, I need eight hours, right? So if I don't get eight hours, I'm like, dude, phew, you just know, like I'm a little bit more irritable. I'm a little bit sluggish, like all these things. And so it's just like a daily reminder, like, hey, get your ass to sleep. Stop, you know, wasting time, all this stuff. So makes sense. Where uh, where can we send people to find you on the internet? Uh, if uh, if people are not already following you.

• 1:04:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, Twitter's great. Travis underscore Kling on Twitter. Uh, we write this monthly update letter. So if you go to ikiguy.fund is the fund uh, website. And then if you click on content, uh, it kicks you over to a different website, which we just had to do for regulatory reasons. But we have this content depot called Kana and Katana, which is the, the pin in the sword in Japanese. And that's got all the past uh, market monthly update letters. Uh, you can sign up for future ones there. And it also has this like little tab there where you can see just the, every month, the bulleted monthly highlights from all the past monthly updates. It's like a, it's probably the best thing to show like.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  Crypto skeptics to give them a sense of like how much has happened in this space over the last like two years or whatever. When you look at a, when you look at it all in one place, uh, we've covered a stunning amount of ground since the first time you and I got on a podcast in September 2018. I mean, it's like, I mean, even since we did the COVID one in May of 2020, dude, we've covered a lot of ground and the, the, all this Fed tightening stuff, all this stuff is a hiccup, dude. It's like all, uh, this is, this, this too shall pass and the outlook for this space broadly has never been brighter. So everybody should be excited.

• 1:06:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I tend to think that is a great way to, uh, to view the market. Bleeding would stop. That'd be nice. But, uh, other than that, my friend, I, uh, I appreciate you coming on. I think people really enjoyed this, uh, and we'll definitely have to do again in the future. So thanks so much.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  Always a pleasure, man.

• 1:06:22Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Talk soon.

• 1:06:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to pompscryptocourse.com. We've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry. It's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period. Go to pompscryptocourse.com to learn more and I'll meet you guys for the next episode.