#867 Educating Congress on Bitcoin w/ Rep. Ro Khanna

Congressman Ro Khanna Represents California's 17th District and is the author of "Dignity In A Digital Age" In this conversation, we discuss the politics around Bitcoin and how Ro is attempting to educate his fellow Representatives about this emerging technology. ======================= Bitcoin 2022 is the LARGEST Bitcoin event in the world that takes place April 6th - 9th in Miami Beach, Florida. All four days will be jammed-packed with exclusive content, exciting announcements and an incredible lineup of bitcoin speakers, artists and leaders. Day 1 is INDUSTRY DAY for enterprising bitcoiners who are looking to build a business or career within the ecosystem. Days 2 and 3 are general conference days featuring speakers like El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, CEOs like Michael Saylor, Elizabeth Stark, Jack Mallers, Adam Back and hundreds more. The conference caps off on the fourth day with the world's first and largest Bitcoin Music Festival - Sound Money Fest headlined by rapper and fellow bitcoiner Logic, featuring artists K. Flay, MØ, Royal & the Serpent, Apashe, Asadi and more. Stay tuned for the upcoming lineup announcement! Last year’s conference SOLD OUT and this year’s is on pace to be 3x larger so make sure you grab your tickets before it's too late. Visit http://b.tc/conference to learn more. Ticket prices increase on JAN 14th, use promo code POMP for 10% off and I will see you in Miami!ire ecosystem bringing utility to #NFTs. ======================= Brave Wallet is the first secure crypto wallet built natively in a web3 crypto browser. No extension required. Store, manage, and grow your portfolio, get NFT & multi-chain support, and more. Download the Brave privacy browser at brave.com/Pomp, and click the wallet icon to get started. ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/Pomp to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, and the UK. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Ro Khanna is the California representative for the 17th District. He's also the author of a brand new book called Dignity in a Digital Age. In this conversation, we talk about Bitcoin, politics, and how he sees technology like Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies positively impacting his constituents. I really enjoyed this conversation with Ro, and I hope that you enjoy it as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by FTX US. FTX.us is the safe, regulated way to buy

• 0:44Anthony Pompliano?

  and sell Bitcoin and other digital assets. You can trade crypto with up to 85% lower fees than top competitors. There are no fixed minimum fees, no ACH transaction fees, and no withdrawal fees either. FTX.us is also the only leading exchange that supports both Ethereum and Solana NFTs. Download the FTX app today and use referral code Pomp to earn these free crypto on every trade over $10. The more you trade, the more you earn. Go download the FTX app today and use referral code Pomp. Today's episode is brought to you by Brave. Brave Wallet is the first secure crypto wallet built natively in a Web3 crypto browser. What's Web3? Web3 is freedom from big tech and

• 1:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Wall Street. More control and better privacy. But there's a weak point in Web3, your crypto wallet. Most wallets are browser extensions, a Web2 technology. That means the same old risks, app spoofing, phishing scams, and theft. Brave Wallet is different. Brave Wallet is the first secure wallet built natively in a Web3 crypto browser. No extension required. With Brave Wallet, you can buy, store, send, and swap assets, manage NFTs, even connect other wallets and dApps, all from the security of the best privacy browser on the market. Whether you're new to crypto or a seasoned pro, it's time to ditch those risky extensions. It's time to switch to Brave Wallet. Download Brave at brave.com/pomp and click the wallet icon to get started. Again, go download Brave at brave.com/pomp.

• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

  com/pomp and click the wallet icon to get started. Today's episode is sponsored by the Bitcoin 2022 Conference. Bitcoin 2022 is the largest Bitcoin event in the world that takes place April 6th through the 9th in Miami Beach, Florida. All four days will be jam packed with exclusive content, exciting announcements, and an incredible lineup of Bitcoin speakers, artists, and leaders. Day one is Industry Day for enterprising Bitcoiners who are looking to build a business or career within the ecosystem. Days two and three are general conference days featuring speakers like El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, CEOs like Michael Saylor, Elizabeth Stark, Jack Mahlers, Adam Back, and hundreds more. The conference caps off on the fourth day with the world's first and largest Bitcoin

• 2:51Anthony Pompliano?

  music festival, Sound Money Fest, headlined by rapper and fellow Bitcoiner Logic, featuring artists K. Flay, Mo, Royal, and The Serpent, Apache, Asadi, and more. Stay tuned for the upcoming lineup announcement. Last year's conference sold out, and this year's is on pace to be three times larger, so make sure you grab your tickets before it's too late. Visit b.tc/conference to learn more. Again, that's b.tc/conference to learn more. Ticket prices increase on January 14th. Use promo code POMP for 10% off, and I will see you in Miami. All right, let's get into this episode. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:50Anthony Pompliano?

  I think we've got Ro here. Ro, how are you?

• 3:52Speaker 02

  I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on. You've got a big following.

• 3:56Anthony Pompliano?

  I am, I'm super excited about this. We've got a lot to get through, so I figured maybe a great place to start is Bitcoin and politicians. There's lots of folks who, their main question is just like, what do the politicians think? And that's a loaded question because there's, you know, multiple sides to the aisle, there are various causes or...

• 4:20Anthony Pompliano?

  or specific aspects that people care about, but just give us your kind of general sense of Bitcoin and how you're thinking about it today.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, in American politics, Abraham Lincoln said, public sentiment is everything. And here's the reality. There are over 40 million people now who own Bitcoin or crypto Bitcoin, obviously being the biggest one. And so it's something that politicians can't ignore. I mean, there are young staffers in everyone's district who have wallets, who are on the exchanges or who have non custodial wallets. And this is something that even if they don't know it, their staff is saying, hey, this is happening. It's happening in everyone's district. So I think it's the opinion is changing from a concern and a reflexive

• 5:12Speaker 02

  opposition to now something more akin to, okay, this is happening. We have to learn about it. And then you have people like me and Ron Wyden on the Democrat side and others on the Republican side to say, actually, you know, there's nothing to be afraid of. This is a good thing. This means that we are democratizing access to finance. This means more people are getting to participate in creation of value and that we should be for blockchain and we should be for Bitcoin.

• 5:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so when you start to think about this, we've seen a number of, I'll call them events over the last maybe year and a half, two years where there was legislation put forward and sometimes it came from politicians themselves. Sometimes it came from regulators. But there was kind of a drill that was run in the crypto community. And I think that they've kind of began to realize the seriousness of this and the importance of the companies, the individuals, the leaders participating in the political process. How much does that have an impact? So when one of these legislative bills are up for vote and you or your colleagues hear from your constituents, like just talk a little bit as to kind of the process of which that goes into forming the opinion, the votes that you take, etc.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  It has a big impact. This is A community that is creating a lot of jobs. I mean, it's creating a lot of jobs certainly in Silicon Valley. It's creating jobs in places like Miami and across the country. And it is a community that is creating economic value. And it's a community, like I said, that is creating a lot of excitement among a lot of diverse communities. I mean, the black community and Latino community are disproportionately represented in owning crypto. So when we hear from the larger community that there are things that Congress may be doing that are unhelpful or that would squelch innovation, then we listen. Doesn't mean that we always agree, but we listen.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Let me tell you, on the infrastructure bill, I would not have known if it weren't from hearing from many, many of my constituents and many people that there was a provision that was overbroad and that was actually going to negatively affect those engaged in mining who had nothing to do with selling crypto or that was actually going to affect people who are just for software coders. And so that to me was helpful and it allowed me to have a conversation with Senator Wyden and others saying, look, we have to fix this. So political engagement, participation makes an enormous difference, particularly in an area where many members of Congress don't have that much knowledge.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  One of the things I've said is I went and I don't trade or own more than 10 bucks of crypto, but I opened up a wallet. I actually went on Coinbase to see what is all this about. I said, well, what is Metamask and what does it mean to have a wallet that can have Ethereum? Partly, I just think more members of Congress should just do some of this so they get the experience of what it's like.

• 8:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I think it's a great point. Along that lines, like what is your process for getting educated? So there's things that you can do yourself in terms of using the technology, go buy some, you know, move it between wallets, etc. But how else do you think about when there's a topic that is obvious that your constituents care about, but you say, hey, listen, you know, this isn't something I'm an expert on, what is that process? And where do you look to to get more information or learn?

• 8:43Speaker 02

  I do a lot of roundtables and I reach out to industry leaders and I reach out to academics. People like Chris Boomer who is a law professor who really understand the technology. And then I also reach out to critics and I try to get all of the information and then I say, okay. Here is my my opinion, but especially in something as it relates to Bitcoin or as it relates to crypto. You know, you really have to go outside the halls of of Congress to to do that. Now, I have a great chief of Seb Giassaba who knew a lot about this and is very immersed in the community. And so that that has helped as well.

• 9:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, now talk to me about proof of work, proof of stake. I know that there's a ton of debate. We just saw the European Union, obviously, voted on and ended up deciding not to ban proof of work. We just had on a member of Space Force who also is a National Defense Fellow at MIT, who was talking about the ideas of a decentralized network is actually a form of a weapon system and could be incredibly impactful for the United States or other countries. How do you just sift through this, right? And if you have specific views and you say, hey, look, you know, I feel educated enough to have an opinion. Great, if you're kind of still working through it, just like, how do you think about kind of filtering proof of work, proof of stake, and how the United States should act here?

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Well, I know I know some of the Bitcoin maximalists that as a matter of prediction, think that it's going to be the proof of work because that's ultimately the most decentralized and no individual has control. And of course, the founder, it may no longer be alive or no longer be in control. And so I understand that's their perspective. Folks with proof of stake say, well, the proof of work is too time consuming and inefficient. The proof of stake is is better. And they raise the energy concerns, though. Someone told me that the entire Bitcoin mining takes less than 0.1% of global energy. And a lot of that frankly can be done through demand response and you don't have

• 10:54Speaker 02

  to be near the energy center to do it and a lot of it can be clean energy. So I think there's solutions to that. And then I was talking to the founder of Solana and he said he has a third concept of a different type of proof that he's introducing. I guess my view of it as a lawmaker is I don't have to take a position for or against one of these. How could I? I mean, even people in the industry don't know. I'm for sort of a pluralistic approach. But what I want to make sure is that we don't sort of demonize proof of work as some have done and that that the government be recognize that you can have clean mining and you can have solutions to that. And then let's see what the market and people want.

• 11:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I think it's a very nuanced perspective of just hey, allow the free market to determine the winner. Allow the technologists and kind of the the end users to determine what ends up having value rather than the politicians, which is hard, right? Like there is an element of when you're in the business of having to take a side or having to have an opinion because there's votes and and various legislation gets put forward. I don't envy you or your colleagues in always having to understand and vote on things. But that's just the nature of the job, it seems.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  It is a nature of the job, but where you're dealing with such complex technology that's still in its incipient stage, I think we can take a view that we don't know everything and that it would be highly problematic. I mean, I don't say this with any sense of arrogance, but I probably know more about Bitcoin and crypto than 95% of other members of Congress. And I don't feel in any way qualified to be making a decision about what is going to emerge as dominant between proof of work, proof of stake. So it would be irresponsible for Congress to be so definitive. And I like to make sure that we have a sort of different pluralistic approach. Let's see what emerges and then be honest about what the advantages

• 12:55Speaker 02

  and disadvantages may be of each approach. And also

• 13:00Speaker 02

  To refute some of the unfair attacks on the approaches.

• 13:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, this perspective that you're presenting reminds me a lot of the book that you recently wrote, which is dignity in a digital age, making tech work for all of us. And this idea that some people adopt technologies and other times we need to bring technology to certain groups, certain types of people, or certain applications. Talk to me a little bit about some of the the large ideas in the book and why, you know, given everything else you have going on and and obviously the not busy life that you have, why did you want to write the book?

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Look, we have 11 trillion dollars in my district and the surrounding areas. It's the most wealth created in human history. Apple, Google, Intel, Yahoo, Cisco, LinkedIn. And I said in the 21st century, our challenge is to decentralize wealth generation. We need a lot of the communities in rural America, in the Midwest, and black and brown communities to have the opportunity to build wealth, to have digital jobs, to start companies, to participate, so they don't have to leave their hometown to succeed. And the book is all about the decentralization of technology and how do we get more people participating in these 25 million digital jobs. That's why I think as a progressive, that we should be celebrating

• 14:15Speaker 02

  what blockchain and crypto represent. It's all about decentralization, away from the power of the banks, away from the power of the biggest tech companies and saying, we can actually decentralize the opportunity to participate, to build companies through tokens. We can decentralize who gets to participate in wealth generation, because most of the IPOs and investment in technology are closed or very few set of accredited investors. This is the crypto is far more open. And we may be able to skip the middleman. We may be able to actually especially be able to remit money and move money without Western

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Union fees. So I the whole thing is democratizing. Obviously, there has to be smart regulation, and there has to be the appropriate tax, and we need to make sure that there's compliance, and we need to make sure there's not wild speculation. But what I don't understand is people who come at it with a fear of a technology that's fundamentally shifting power away from concentration and empowering individuals.

• 15:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I think that's a great way to to look at it. Joe, John, what questions you guys have? Hey Ro, thanks for joining us. You had a comment recently that I saw that I thought was super interesting around how to fix social media and the disinformation and misinformation that's going on. And I think you said something along the lines of your first step would be to hire a bunch of philosophy majors or political science majors, or really just people that are involved with liberal arts, the thinking process behind that. Why did you say that? And what is your thought process for that?

• 15:47Speaker 02

  You know, when the printing press was established, it took 100 years for that conversation to be constructive. Initially, people were putting out very, very provocative misinformation pamphlets. It was leading to war in Europe, and it was a concentrated effort to build deliberative institutions, the public sphere institutions of liberal democracy. I think you have all this social media out there, and people just say, okay, if we just allow people to talk, that somehow that's going to be peace and mutual understanding. Of course not. If it were that easy, you wouldn't need the humanities. You wouldn't need philosophy. We have to be intentional about how we get people to interact and how

• 16:29Speaker 02

  we highlight the best types of exchanges and make those exchanges possible. And that's why I said that we ought to have more liberal arts majors, so that these companies aren't just thinking, okay, how do we maximize the amount of time someone spends on my platform, but think about what is their role in being thoughtful stakeholders of democracy?

• 16:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Gotcha. John, what do you got for us?

• 16:53Speaker 03

  Ro, what are the steps in how you're thinking about making California's 17th District and pretty much all of California, the United States in general, more crypto-friendly?

• 17:02Speaker 02

  First is overcoming the irrational fear of crypto. I mean, this idea that people, when they think of crypto right now, they think, oh, is it some scheme to hold people in ransom? Or is it some crime? And that's actually not the case. Or is it some investment spam? Obviously, they're bad cases. That would be like holding up the worst members of Congress and saying, that's all of Congress. I mean, frankly, some of that may be more representative of our body. But the reality, when I think of crypto... So I think of people having the ability now to participate in the economy,

• 17:41Speaker 02

  to participate in wealth generation, to cut out a lot of the middlemen and institutions. And I'm, I, I think we just need more education around that. And we need more education about how widespread this is and that you're not going to, uh, to turn back what, what's happening. It's, it's just going to continue to, to grow in, in, in adoption. And if we can get that information out, uh, then I think this, this fear, this reflexive fear will, will die down and we can have thoughtful policy emerge.

• 18:15Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 18:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Ro, when you start to think about so many of the companies inside of your jurisdiction, and some of them are crypto, some of them aren't, how are you thinking about the intersection between economic prosperity, job creation and this industry? You mentioned earlier that there's been a lot already, but are you hearing from many of the business leaders that they see this as one of the major sectors? Uh, or what are you hearing from them?

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I am. I mean, I, uh, met with the founder of Solana this, uh, weekend back home, partly because, uh, he's Ukrainian-American and I wanted to really hear from him. He has a lot of people in Ukraine and a lot of the crypto community actually have people in, in Ukraine. And so I just wanted to understand. And you look at his story and his founder Raj's story, you know, they're the children of immigrants. They came to this country, uh, with absolutely, uh, nothing. Uh, and, and they've now created this huge company and they're creating hundreds of jobs. That's the American dream. Now, whatever you think of, whether that, I know different people have different views on crypto and it's almost, uh, religious intensity in which one's right or which one's wrong.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  But my point is a broader point. Step back and look at how much entrepreneurship, innovation is taking place. And look at the background of the people who are doing it. They're often people who've come as immigrants or children of immigrants with nothing and they're creating value and they're creating jobs. And that's something we ought to celebrate.

• 19:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When you think about your colleagues, bringing what you're hearing on the ground from people in your district into these political conversations, what are like the one or two things you would love to see the various political factions kind of come together in a bipartisan way and push for it? Are there specific either pieces of legislation or specific efforts that you're like, you know, this feels really important?

• 20:07Speaker 02

  I think we need to see that the digital asset regulation is different than traditional regulation, right? I mean, the Howey case is a great case. It should be case law, but not all digital assets probably need to be filing 10K and 10Q forms, especially as they become decentralized. So how do we have a rational digital asset regulation that makes sure that we're being appropriate for the new assets? And second, how can we have some predictable rules? I don't want this industry in Singapore. I don't want it offshore. I want the industry to be in the United States, the wealth generation to be in the United States. How do we make sure that that, that the work is being done here? You know

• 20:52Speaker 02

  why? Because that's our laws also will better protect privacy and we can also more incentivize clean energy for the use of mining. So let's think about what we can be doing in the United States to be the absolute leader when it comes to crypto.

• 21:08Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think about things like taxation, how does that play into it, right? We saw recently Senator Lummis put forward a bill talking about kind of de minimis exemption. There's been talk about it previously with other politicians. It feels like, in my mind at least, I always talk about crypto companies, especially in New York City, kind of the financial capital of the world. They have more regulatory hurdles to jump through, not because of federal level, but because of the state level having the bit license and things like that. But every American has, from a taxation standpoint, an asset that they consider to be a currency, whether they're saving in it, spending it, sending it to friends, whatever. But it's not taxed as a currency. It's taxed as property. And so any thoughts there in terms of what could be done or what's likely to be done?

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Well, I think we have to have fairness. I mean, obviously, if you have a capital appreciation, and then it should be taxed that way, but if it's a commodity and being recognized as a commodity or currency, then it should have the same rules as any other commodity or currency. I think right now, the problem is that there's no clarity and that there isn't a fair playing field. What I would say is, let's have predictable rules, have something, if it's an appreciable investment, tax it as capital gains. If it's a commodity, have the rules of commodity. If it's a currency, have those rules, and make them fair, so that you aren't singling out crypto in a way that's different than other types of assets.

• 22:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And then, my last question for you, and then we'll let you go, because I know you've got a lot of other stuff to do, is you mentioned that you have $10 or less. What can we do to get that number up?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I gotta be careful for a couple of reasons. One, everything I buy and sell gets reported, as it should be. And so, I don't want anyone ever to say, "Oh, you know, Khan's policies are for crypto because Khan is going to benefit some way financially from that." So, I deliberately kept it low and don't want to do that, so that people know when I'm advocating for these policies, it's because that's what I believe. That's what I think is actually good. And that's what I think is actually going to create a lot of access for a lot of individuals who've been left out of so

• 23:27Speaker 02

  much of the wealth generation of the modern stock market and modern company formation. So, that's why, for me personally, I keep it very, very low, so not to have any conflict of interest. But I definitely think more members of Congress should at least be on these platforms to understand them.

• 23:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that's a fair position to take. Where can we send people to find you on the internet? I know you've been tweeting a lot more, which I've been enjoying, or find out more about your policies, or any of your perspective?

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Well, @ReproKhan or @ReproKhan on Twitter. And, you know, I-

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Loving engaging there. I usually, sometimes I only even go back and forth with people to the disappointment of my, my team. But I, I think it's great to get a robust conversation. And I, I'll tell you something, the crypto community is pretty strong on social media and that matters. And I, I just think you should know your own influence and power. There are 40 million plus folks in every state, in every community. This is a constituency that's going to matter to the future of America and American politics.

• 24:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. I actually lied. I have one more question for you. This is my own personal interest. One of our sponsors is Eight Sleep and they've got this thermo-regulated mattress that you can make super hot or cold. I turn mine freezing cold and sleep like a baby now. For you, every time I've ever talked to you, you respond almost immediately. You're doing like nine million things and on the ball. What is your sleep schedule? Like, how do you actually get all this done?

• 25:03Speaker 02

  You know, I usually sleep, I was on a red eye this, tonight, got in this morning. So I can sleep on planes. But the thing is, I do catch up sleep. So if there's a couple nights I don't have sleep, I, I need my seven, eight hours to be fully functional eventually. I'm not one of, some people, they go on three, four hours sleep, like Nancy Pelosi or something. I'm not one of them. But I can, I can go a few days with, with less sleep. But you know, I get energized. In politics, it's, I get energized from other people. I get energized from conversation. I, I love my district because you meet all these extraordinary people like you, Bob, and others who are just at the cutting edge

• 25:43Speaker 02

  of technology and at the cutting edge of what the world is going, going to look like. And that's, to me, that's exciting.

• 25:51Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a great answer. Sleep on planes and just catch up. That's, that's a, that's a strategy I'm gonna need to apply. All right. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. You're doing fantastic work and I know there's tons and tons of people who, that you've been speaking with and just, I think probably the most impressive thing, honestly, is that you're doing the work. Which for those that, that are your colleagues, you know, I, I hope that they follow in your footsteps. You're, you're serving as a great role model. So thank you.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I, I've heard so many folks say, have you been on this podcast yet? So I'm honored to be on.

• 26:22Anthony Pompliano?

  That we just paid all those people. Don't listen to them. All right. See you later.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Take care.

• 26:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to pompscryptocourse.com. We've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry. It's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period. Go to pompscryptocourse.com to learn more and I'll meet you guys for the next episode.