#799 Bitcoin Debate!! w/ Darren Rovell

Darren Rovell is a Sports Business Reporter and Senior Executive Reporter for Action Network. He focuses on the businesses of sports betting, memorabilia, NFTs and more. Darren has been very outspoken against Bitcoin lately on social media, so we invited Darren to come on The Best Business Show to have a healthy debate. In this conversation we discuss why Darren dislikes Bitcoin, comparisons to sports gambling, and what he thinks is wrong with the Crypto Industry. I have immense respect for Darren and I appreciate him coming on the show to have a discussion. You can view the full video on "The Best Business Show: LIVE" Youtube. ======================= Bitcoin 2022 is the LARGEST Bitcoin event in the world that takes place April 6th - 9th in Miami Beach, Florida. All four days will be jammed-packed with exclusive content, exciting announcements and an incredible lineup of bitcoin speakers, artists and leaders. Day 1 is INDUSTRY DAY for enterprising bitcoiners who are looking to build a business or career within the ecosystem. Days 2 and 3 are general conference days featuring speakers like El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, CEOs like Michael Saylor, Elizabeth Stark, Jack Mallers, Adam Back and hundreds more. The conference caps off on the fourth day with the world's first and largest Bitcoin Music Festival - Sound Money Fest headlined by rapper and fellow bitcoiner Logic, featuring artists K. Flay, MØ, Royal & the Serpent, Apashe, Asadi and more. Stay tuned for the upcoming lineup announcement! Last year’s conference SOLD OUT and this year’s is on pace to be 3x larger so make sure you grab your tickets before it's too late. Visit b.tc/conference to learn more. Ticket prices increase on JAN 14th, use promo code POMP for 10% off and I will see you in Miami!ire ecosystem bringing utility to #NFTs. ======================= Brave Wallet is the first secure crypto wallet built natively in a web3 crypto browser. No extension required. Store, manage, and grow your portfolio, get NFT & multi-chain support, and more. Download the Brave privacy browser at brave.com/Pomp, and click the wallet icon to get started. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Darren Rovell is a sports business reporter and senior executive producer for Action Network. He focuses on the business of sports betting, memorabilia, NFTs, and much more. In this conversation, we talk about Bitcoin, why Darren hates Bitcoin, and what he thinks is wrong with the industry. We also cover tons of different stories about sports and the intersection with crypto and NFTs. I really enjoyed this conversation with Darren, and I respect the hell out of him. I hope that you enjoy this conversation as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors.

• 0:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is sponsored by the Bitcoin 2022 Conference. Bitcoin 2022 is the largest Bitcoin event in the world that takes place April 6th through the 9th in Miami Beach, Florida. All four days will be jam-packed with exclusive content, exciting announcements, and an incredible lineup of Bitcoin speakers, artists, and leaders. Day one is Industry Day for enterprising Bitcoiners who are looking to build a business or career within the ecosystem. Days two and three are general conference days, featuring speakers like El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, CEOs like Michael Saylor, Elizabeth Stark, Jack Mahlers, Adam Back, and hundreds more. The conference caps off on the fourth day with the world's first and largest Bitcoin music festival, Sound Money Fest, headlined by rapper and fellow

• 1:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoiner Logic, featuring artists K. Flay, Mo, Royal, and The Serpent, Apache, Asadi, and more. Stay tuned for the upcoming lineup announcement. Last year's conference sold out, and this year's is on pace to be three times larger, so make sure you grab your tickets before it's too late. Visit b.tc/conference to learn more. Again, that's b.tc/conference to learn more. Ticket prices increase on January 14th. Use promo code POMP for 10% off, and I will see you in Miami. Today's episode is brought to you by Fundrise. You all know I believe that the best investors both understand and seek out extreme asymmetry. Fundrise is here to help you do just that. It's the largest direct-to-investor real estate investment platform out there, giving you the opportunity to achieve upside of an asset class previously

• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Go check it out. And when you make your first investment, they'll give you $10 on top of it. Fundrise.com/pomp. Today's episode is brought to you by Brave. Brave Wallet is the first secure crypto wallet built natively in a web three crypto browser. What's web three? Web three is freedom from big tech and Wall Street. More control and better privacy. But there's a weak point in web three, your crypto wallet. Most wallets are browser extensions, a web two technology. That means the same old risks, app spoofing, phishing scams and theft. Brave Wallet is different. Brave Wallet is the first secure wallet built natively in a web three crypto browser. No extension required. With Brave Wallet, you can buy, store, send and swap assets, manage NFTs, even connect other wallets and dApps,

• 3:35Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:56Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 4:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Friend Darren Rovell, are you there?

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 4:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Here he is. By the way, first question, you said you're coming into the Lions Den. Virtual Lions Den's don't exist. This is, this is a friendly place. We are friends of Darren Rovell. Big fans.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  I got, I got it. Again, I gotta give you guys a lot of credit because, you know, I want to debate people in a passionate way. Uh, and, uh, I'm doing it tonight with someone on Name, Image and Likeness, something that, that Joe has certainly covered. Uh, and

• 4:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you gonna win?

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Uh, I don't know. I, I, I don't know if it's about, I, I think we have won here and I'm not just, you know, being nice here. We've won by having a debate. We need to have passionate debates, especially two years into COVID, where we're not seeing people in person and it's, we need to have these to, you know, get our energy going, you know? This is good for all of us.

• 5:14Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Now, before we get started, I felt like we could, I could like show you something to get our energy going to like really like, you know, get, get a good, enjoying, laugh, get started with everything.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Now, I've listened to your show for the last hour and a half and it's a lot of math and charts, just a lot of math.

• 5:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Let me show you this math Darren, Darren, you ready? Let me just say, just wait, don't drink anything, keep your eyes glued to the screen.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  It's my, it's my dip. It's the only dude.

• 5:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Speak of math.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  Speak of math, Darren said 99.99% of Americans could not beat him in a marathon.

• 5:55Anthony Pompliano?

  In America. What was your mar, what was your marathon time?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  4:32. I beat Tiki Barber by 32.

• 6:03Anthony Pompliano?

  I love that. I mean, that's an all time line.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  I, I, I will also say, um, that that is the most watched 40 of all time, 9.2 million views. Usain Bolt is number two.

• 6:16Anthony Pompliano?

  That is true. That is true.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't, I, I, I don't care that it looks like I'm taking a dump.

• 6:23Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, let's talk, let's talk about, by the way, our friend Colton made that and I thought that was awesome. That was great.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Very well done.

• 6:29Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, so what, what, what's the issue with Bitcoin? You don't like Bitcoin? You like Bitcoin? I thought that you bought some Bitcoin?

• 6:34Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no issue. It's not for me.

• 6:39Anthony Pompliano?

  All right.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Now, if you don't think I deserve to talk about it, or you think because it's not for me because I looked into it and it wasn't enough. By the way, I am constantly looking into it. But for me, it's just so, so the applauding of the yay, someone took Bitcoin, you know, instead of, that drives me a little bit nuts.

• 7:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Why? Why does that bother you?

• 7:01Speaker 02

  I don't know. When Joe says, what a legend. Like, he's got a legend. He just took it in Bitcoin.

• 7:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Why does that bother you?

• 7:10Speaker 02

  It bothers me because.

• 7:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Cause he's investing?

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Odell Beckham Jr., whether you agree with him, people defining him as a role model or not, is a role model. And he took all of his money in Bitcoin. And you got to realize, you know, there's a lot of 20 to 30 year olds that anecdotally have way too much in this.

• 7:32Anthony Pompliano?

  But he didn't, hold on a second. But, but one key piece of this is, because there's some detail here. By the way, the fact that you could go on your phone and your notes section and write up a bunch of stuff and it go viral across the internet means you're a powerful, powerful man.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  It's crazy. I mean, that, that went, that went pretty crazy.

• 7:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it was bad math, but it still went crazy. So, so here's the two things.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Why bad math? Because of the taxes?

• 7:53Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, no, hold on a second. So first is, uh, it's only one of his revenue streams, right? And I, and I, and I guess, I don't know, you probably know better or Joe knows better than I do. My guess is that it's the smallest revenue stream that he has compared to marketing deals or other stuff. Is that fair?

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Hey, he got, he, listen, he got a signing bonus, which is not including that, but salary is based on, you know, weekly, that's what you get. That's your check. So, yes, yes. But the thing is that when it's like, what a legend, it makes people think that that's his main revenue stream. I'm not saying, I'm not saying Odell is in trouble. I'm not saying Odell is in trouble.

• 8:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Wait, let me clarify this real quick.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  What a legend!

• 8:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Darren, you left out the part where he got paid seven figures to do the deal. More than the entire Rams contract. That seems like a pretty important part to leave out.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  But is that, but is that, does that necessarily, like, again, I told you if Cash App paid me a million dollars, I'd say no.

• 8:49Anthony Pompliano?

  No, you said six figures. You said six figures.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  I would, if Cash App, make me the offer. If Cash App paid me a million, offered me a million dollars, I would say no today. Because I don't, I mean, at least tied to Bitcoin, tied to Bitcoin. I don't believe in it, right?

• 9:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Why wouldn't you just take the Bitcoin and then just sell it for dollars?

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Because that's disingent, again, I'm worried about the youth of America here. I invest in mental health, okay? So, and the fact that Cash, wait, did you just put yourself on silent while you were laughing?

• 9:22Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, but, but what I want to call out is that-

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Cash App Bitcoin is not real Bitcoin, right?

• 9:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, hold on a second, but you're advocating, you're advocating for people instead of taking some of their salary in Bitcoin, to take it in dollars, which is guaranteed to lose value, guaranteed to go down. Over the last two years, Bitcoin's up like 350% give or take. The US dollar is down like a gazillion percent.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  Well, listen, I'd rather take inflation at 7% than, than, than being in Bitcoin. Like, the whole thing against inflation is absurd. The dollar is the most centralized, most recognized. You know, you go, you go nuts on El Salvador. You should Google El Salvador a little bit more. You should spend more, you should go to El. Have you gone to El Salvador?

• 10:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Not yet. I'm planning to.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  You, you should, because they need help, because 70% of the country is revolting against Bitcoin and wants the dollar.

• 10:19Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, no. Four million people got the app. Four million, more than 50% of the Els, of the Salvadorians.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  I have DraftKings, I have DraftKings too. I, I'm, I'm just, I'm just saying that, like, the bashing of the dollar, the whole dollar thing is like, Bitcoin is not the replacement for the dollar.

• 10:37Anthony Pompliano?

  What percent? Nobody's saying it.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  It's, it's not even on the same level. Like, Bitcoin has no practicality as currency, and that's been proven over and over.

• 10:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. First of all, what percentage of your portfolio is in cash? 5%, 10%? What do you think?

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Uh, in cash? Uh, yeah, I would say about, mm, I would say less than 5%.

• 11:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so same, right? Uh, most people, that's true. Now, the reason why you don't hold cash is because you know, because you're intelligent, that the dollar continues to be devalued, right? And if you sit there and you take 7% inflation on the chin with, you know, majority of your portfolio, that'd be bad.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  I don't do it in cash because, because the bank is offering me nothing.

• 11:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Right? And I feel like I can invest it. I'm actually not wor- I'm actually not that worried every day. There's a lot of things I can worry about. I am actually not that worried about the devaluing dollar. I'm not. It's not a main concern. I am so happy I live in America and the Fed's gonna raise rates. And you know what? If I make my main motivation the inflationary value of the dollar, well, you know what? I live in America, taxes suck, but, but the, but the over talk about how the dollar is decreasing, it's the smallest of my problems. And I'm not gonna let that change my motivation on how I invest.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  And I shouldn't, because it's relatively a small thing. Especially, especially when you're talking to P- and I'll let you talk, I promise. When you're talking to people about why does the Bitcoin play at all with the dollar? When, now, okay, ETH, uh, other stable coins, which I'm into, by the way. I, I, I'm not, I'm not invested in it, but other stable coins that front for cash. Okay, now let's talk about the dollar versus those stable coins. But to talk about the dollar against Bitcoin is purposely obfuscatory.

• 12:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Wait, okay, I got a question here. And this, this is, in all sincerity, very serious. We only talk about Bitcoin, specifically. We don't tell anyone to go buy any of these shit coins. There's thousands of them, literally thousands of them, that people could go buy and lose all of their money. We've never told anyone to go buy any of those. Specifically, we have only-

• 13:00Speaker 04

  Only talked about Bitcoin as an investment to go purchase. No NFTs, no nothing. So in your mind, your job for a living is sports gambling. 95% of people lose money on sports gambling. It is essentially a way to funnel money from a consumer to the state via taxes. Do you not find that to be unethical or immoral at all that you promote that? When, when, when, hang on one second, when Bitcoin has a long history of price appreciation from an investment.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter.

• 13:29Speaker 04

  That doesn't matter at all. So you're guaranteed to lose money in one. History shows that you're guaranteed to make a profit in another while protecting.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  You're not guaranteed, you're not guaranteed to me.

• 13:37Speaker 04

  History, I said.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  A five-year history does, a five-year history in the terms of trends or a 10-year history is ridiculous to talk about a guarantee. Okay. So, so, so, I mean, that's what you guys do all day. You do the math and the trends and the this and that, and nothing's a trend. Anyway, uh, so let me talk about sports gambling. At least with, so sports gambling and the stock market are both more fair than Bitcoin. And I'll tell you why. Sports gambling, there is at the very least, at the very least, there is some information you can go on. I work at the Action Network. We specialize in that information. Will it definitely help you win? No, but you know that a player is out. You know that there's these trends.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  And by the way, the trends are 25 years. That's the, that's what we look at a 25-year horizon, time horizon. And so in stocks, okay, whether you believe the market is fair or not, okay? And whether you think it's a fraud or not, it is loosely based on the earnings of companies, how the sector is doing and how the economy is doing. Bitcoin is based on zero.

• 14:45Speaker 04

  Okay, timeout, timeout, hold on. I got a question. This is like me in class in the back. I raised my hand. Ready?

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Go ahead, go ahead, sir.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  Let's, let's look at, let's look at stocks. I want to compare stocks and Bitcoin. Stocks, I agree with you. It's based on basically macro environment. And then it's based on things around, uh, earnings, revenue, profitability, revenue multiples, et cetera. Right now, what, what's a stock that you own? Like, what's one of the bigger stocks that you own?

• 15:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Just probably.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Prob- I mean, I own large buckets of stocks.

• 15:16Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, but but just.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  I don't play around with ever sit. Let me give you this. Okay, let me give you this. So at CNBC, I had to get rid of my individual movement of stocks.

• 15:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  As I was on the air, you're not allowed to do anything with moving. You can't disclose like the highest level of scrutiny. Ever since then, I have a financial advisor. We talk about what buckets we put it in. I see what he does, but I don't do individual stocks.

• 15:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so like Nike.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  I'm not doing that every day like a lot of people are doing.

• 15:46Anthony Pompliano?

  See, so Nike, I'm assuming is one of the stocks.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  That is based, some of that is based on the fact that like sports, unlike sports gambling, it's not a win or a loss. There's not a direct corollary. Earnings come out. Earnings come out. Someone beats earnings. They go, it doesn't beat the whisper number.

• 16:02Anthony Pompliano?

  But hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let's just take Nike as an example. If I asked you right now, how much revenue did Nike do today? Nobody knows. You don't know. I don't know. Nobody knows that answer. If I ask you how much revenue Nike did last week, nobody knows. If I ask you how much profit Nike made on that revenue today or last week, nobody knows.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Four times a year, you know.

• 16:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, four times a year.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Great, and you.

• 16:25Anthony Pompliano?

  With Bitcoin, with Bitcoin, I can tell you every single minute in real time, how much Bitcoin is being created, how many transactions there are, what the network fees or the revenue for the network is. I can tell you how many people are securing the network. Everything is fully transparent. There is no.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  It's not a product. It's not a, you're comparing something like Nike that's a product.

• 16:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoin is a product, come on.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  No, no, Bitcoin. That's why you go first mover. Bitcoin's the first mover. Who cares? It's not a product.

• 16:58Anthony Pompliano?

  No, it is. Here's why. Because guess what? When you, yes, when you go today and you go to Starbucks, right? You go to Starbucks, you, I take you as like a Frappuccino guy. So if you go to Starbucks, you order a Frappuccino.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  No, too many calories, but.

• 17:11Anthony Pompliano?

  You take, you take your card out.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  I'm 43. I can't be having frappuccinos. They're for kids.

• 17:15Anthony Pompliano?

  You look like you're 19, so you're still good to go. If you take out your credit card and you put it into the credit card machine, you're using a product, right? You're using the Visa network to process that transaction.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  And use Bitcoin.

• 17:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on, but if you were to pay in Bitcoin, you would use the Bitcoin network, the Visa network and the Bitcoin network, the payment rails are both products.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Can you pay in Bitcoin at any Starbucks in America?

• 17:41Anthony Pompliano?

  In certain places you can. It depends on if they support it. But, but also it'd be like if Starbucks said, we don't accept MasterCard, but we accept Visa, right? Every, every merchant gets their choice of what payment system.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  You're, you're giving, you're just giving me a hypothetical as it was a product.

• 17:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, hold on. No, no, no. Cause here's why. In the last 24 hours, I can prove to you on the blockchain, there was 12.9 billion dollars of on-chain transaction volume. That is not exchanges, that's not trading, that's not any of that stuff. 12.9 billion dollars. There was over 1 million active addresses. The Bitcoin network.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  To what? To do what?

• 18:20Anthony Pompliano?

  It doesn't matter because if I.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  No, it does matter. That's where, that's where it does matter.

• 18:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Here's why. Cause Visa, Visa reports that they had, let's say 12, 12 trillion in annual trading volume or annual transaction volume last year. For what? We don't know. They don't tell us.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  For real, for, for goods and products.

• 18:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Maybe, maybe, maybe.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  What else would it be?

• 18:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Money laundering. We don't know. The banks, they say they have transaction volume. What is it for? I don't know. They got Mexican cartels laundering money through their, like literally their, their laundromat. Like you don't know what the use cases are.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  We, we, we, we need an hour, but now let me, I want to talk to you about banks.

• 19:01Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, let's go. Do you like banks or, or, or you're a bank hater?

• 19:05Speaker 02

  Listen, I'm, I'm a, listen, I'm a skeptical guy. I don't, you don't, you think I take everything at its face. I don't. Okay. I'm a skeptical guy. All right.

• 19:14Anthony Pompliano?

  That's fair.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Do I think that banks, do I, do I, do I think that, but, but my problem with you is you being two-faced. And let me tell you.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Okay, so, so, so the banks are like, you think the banks are like awful and horrible, right?

• 19:31Anthony Pompliano?

  No, actually, I think the bankers are the ones that are the bad people, but go ahead.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Okay, so you do, but there's a negative, when, when we think about pump and the banks, there's a negative association, you give me that?

• 19:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, along with 95% of Americans also talk poorly of their bank.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Okay, so, so that, so it's like, okay, the banks are doing this, they're rigging this, they're doing that, and then all of a sudden, it's like Goldman has now put all their efforts into Bitcoin, and you use that as like to embolden people, now you've given the banks credibility.

• 20:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Because they're capitulating.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Once they say they're in Bitcoin, you love it.

• 20:09Anthony Pompliano?

  No, I don't like the banks, I still think the banks are stupid, but they're capitulating, they tried to fight it, they tried to ignore it, they said it was stupid, they wrote their reports, they banned their employees from buying it and selling it and trading it, they did all, everything they possibly could, they pulled out the banker playbook, and still, you can't ignore the king, because they still capitulate, they eventually realize what the individuals, think about this for a second, there are people who sit inside of all these banks that get paid millions of dollars a year, and their job is to figure out how to improve the financial system, make more money for their bank, and they got front-run by a bunch of morons on the internet, the Bitcoin plebs around the world, millions and millions of people figured this shit out before they did, they didn't get paid anything,

• 20:51Anthony Pompliano?

  this entire system has been built by millions of volunteers around the world, and those banks realize, if they want to stand toe-to-toe with a decentralized network of Bitcoin, they will lose, and so they have a choice, either you capitulate, you bend the knee, and you finally say, we're into Bitcoin, or you will be left in history books as being the moron who ran a bank and got disrupted by a bunch of people sitting in their parents' basement on the internet, and there's no bank executives that's gonna sit, oversee that disruption.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Okay, but what percent of their overall investment, does that match up to 1% or less than 1% of their overall investment, which is the same percentage of people who are just taking a shot?

• 21:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Fidelity, you think that's a big one? Trillion dollar asset manager?

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:42Anthony Pompliano?

  The CEO's got a Bitcoin miner in her office.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  No, I don't care about this. I don't care about an anecdotal story. I want to know what percentage.

• 21:50Anthony Pompliano?

  They started an entire fidelity digital assets. She literally says on conference calls, "We have three main areas that are our core focuses over the next decade. One of them is crypto." Right? These people.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  One of those is crypto, not Bitcoin.

• 22:03Speaker 04

  I think part of it too, though, just to interject for a second, is looking outside of the United States. We focus a lot on the United States because it's where we live. But our monetary system is very stable. We all have access to bank accounts. We have no problem. We're not worried about our money being seized. We're not worried about the price of our coffee changing from the morning to the night. Like, these are real problems that people face in other countries. So, do you see Bitcoin as at least being applicable to people in countries that have hyperinflation? Or people that live under authoritarian regimes? Or something like that?

• 22:34Speaker 02

  I guess. I'm not like ethnocentric. I mean, I understand what happens in, you know, in other countries. I just think that the argument, the argument is still that the American dollar is still the most centralized, most recognized, most lauded currency in the world.

• 22:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, but, but nobody's disagreeing with that. But there's one key piece. There's two things that people do with the dollar. They save it and they spend it. All right? The thing that most people in the Bitcoin community are starting with is they're simply saying the dollar is not a good savings tool. The better savings technology is Bitcoin. Forget spending for a second. Just savings.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Why? Why is the better savings technology Bitcoin? Tell me.

• 23:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Because one is structurally inflationary. The other is structurally deflationary. And, well, that's a fact. That's not up for debate. The second thing is that when you look at the US dollar, whether it's 1% inflation or 7% on the official numbers, they are going to guaranteed continue to devalue it. The reason why you have 5% or less of your portfolio in cash, as do I and most other folks who we bring on this show, is because we understand. How money works. We understand holding cash is not a smart investment decision. But the bottom forty five percent of Americans hold no investable assets. They just hold cash. They live paycheck to paycheck. They just hold cash.

• 24:00Anthony Pompliano?

  And that's what drives the wealth inequality gap is that rich people have assets that go up in value when there's inflation. And forty five percent of Americans don't have any investments. So for the last two years, they go to the same job getting paid an hourly wage. They actually get paid less in purchasing power terms today than they did two years ago. And they're literally worse off than they were two years ago.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  And that that's okay. I hope this story doesn't end this way, but I worry most with Bitcoin investment. I worry most about the little guy.

• 24:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, the little guy.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  Because because because I'm worried about, and this is not you. You didn't take their money and put it into Bitcoin. Your show did, but but but but but I I would say that I'm worried about that because you talk about like inflation like it's a disaster and inflation.

• 24:53Anthony Pompliano?

  The highest it's been in forty years.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Well, it is. It is. It speaks of volatility, but but but but vol- inflation. The scary thing about inflation is volatility. I'm not in control. It's it's gonna go crazy. And Bitcoin is as volatile as it is.

• 25:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's volatile to the upside. It's volatile to the upside, of course. It's compounded annually for a decade. The compound annual growth rate of Bitcoin.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Again, you're gonna go on a short time horizon, but like remember. Wait, wait, let me give you this. Let me get. I'm gonna ask you a question. I'm gonna ask you a question.

• 25:25Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Ask me a question.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Are you making fun of me right now?

• 25:31Speaker 02

  I I think what percentage, what what what percentage of people since? What percentage of people are?

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Are in Bitcoin. I'm thinking more than 50% of people are newly in Bitcoin over the last more than 50% of people of accounts are newly in Bitcoin over the last six months. What do we know about accounts?

• 25:56Anthony Pompliano?

  False. Maybe over the last 18 months, maybe. It depends. I'd have to look at the numbers.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  December 2020, December 2020, let's go a year, a year.

• 26:06Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure, the last two years, because a lot of people in 2020, 2021, a lot of people came in. But

• 26:12Speaker 02

  So they would come in, they would come in at 14, 15,000, right? December 2020?

• 26:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, yeah, we're at $10,000 at the end of October, which means it's up 350% in like a year and a half.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Okay, but the, but the past does not command. This is my biggest problem. Okay. Past, you, you will fail this if you answer this. The past, especially a short past, does not predict the future.

• 26:39Anthony Pompliano?

  I agree with that. Amazon is a great example of a disruptive technology that created disruptive products.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  No, no, no, they had products. Bitcoin's not a product.

• 26:47Anthony Pompliano?

  No, it is. But Amazon, the average inter-year drawdown is double digits, 30%. It dropped 90% at least once, and it's been one of the best performing stocks over the last 20 years. Bitcoin.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  It dropped 90% over a year and a half or over a day.

• 27:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, okay. Hold on a second. Bitcoin, for example, this, uh, over the last, uh, since inception, has had multiple 80% drawdowns, hundreds of percent upside, etc. It's a volatile asset in US dollar terms. Last year, it drew down 20% six times, six different times. It drew down 50% one time. It still finished the year up 65%. In the last four years, Bitcoin has drawn down 50% four different times. It still is up hundreds of percent over that timeframe. So you need volatility to get upside, just as much as volatility hurts you on the downside. Upside it helps you if you're along the asset.

• 27:53Anthony Pompliano?

  So if something's going to be volatile and you're holding it. If it is volatile, the upside, you like the volatility. The reason why you and I like inflation, and this is just a hard truth of the world. Is if you're in assets, you love inflation because it pushes your asset prices higher. If you are in cash, you hate inflation because it makes you poorer. And that ultimately, that divergence is where I think that the idea of Bitcoin, the product of Bitcoin, provides an even playing field. Anyone in the world, no matter where you come from, what your educational level is, your wealth status, who your parents are, where you went to school, who you know, none of that shit matters. You got an internet connection, you now can protect your purchasing power in a way that you've never been able to do that before. And there's a hundred plus million people.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  You can't use anything. With something that you can't use to purchase anything.

• 28:39Anthony Pompliano?

  There was 12.9 billion dollars of transaction volume that happened last year. The Bitcoin market's bigger than the entire sports betting market.

• 28:46Speaker 04

  I think we're going down a rabbit hole now, but my general understanding, and I think we agree on both of these things between us and you, Darren, is that there are a lot of people in Bitcoin for the wrong reasons, right? There, in my opinion, there's two separate classes of people that are here for the right reasons, and then people that are solely here to make money and for a profit. And that's not always necessarily wrong, but there's certainly people that are promoting things and trying to get people to invest money that they cannot afford to lose for their personal gain.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  But Joe, isn't there the so, when the only, I put this on Instagram yesterday at Derivell. If.

• 29:22Anthony Pompliano?

  I see what you did there.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  If the, if the only value of something is the value itself, it has no value. The, the talk, and this is my concern with NFTs too. Like in 1986, Fleer Michael Jordan Rookie, right? It went up to 730,000, there were two sales in January. It went all the way down to 300. Now, why did it stop at 300 and not go through the floor? Because at 300, someone said, you know what? It's nice enough that I like looking at it. My problem is, especially with these NFTs, and I know we're not talking about this, but my problem is that no one really, there's no. Product to like. And so there's not something to look at. There's no product to like the NFTs is like,

• 30:07Speaker 02

  do you really think your bored ape or your Crypto Punk is worth that? Or is it all about the money? And as someone who's in memorabilia and collectibles, the, the, when it's, yes, it can be about money. I invest in memorabilia for money, but when it's 95% of the talk is about money, it's harder for people, it's easier for people to be in it for the wrong reasons and for it to be all about money.

• 30:29Speaker 04

  So I don't want to go, I don't want to go too far down the NFT route because as I said, we don't, we don't promote this stuff on the show or do any of this stuff. But here's a good example, because I did a podcast with Gary Vee last night, the Joe Pomp Show. And I think most people, you know, he, he gets a lot of jokes, right? Like it's Gary Vee. But he has this NFT. None of us own the NFT, so we're not speaking out of personal gain here. But one of the things that is interesting and contradicts your point a little bit at least, and I'm curious your opinion, is as part of his token, you get the ability to go to his conference, right? So for three years, the, the tokens came out, there were $2,000 each, depending on whatever the price of ETH was at the time. And you got tickets for three years, plus whatever additional benefits he gives to those token holders.

• 31:11Speaker 04

  That's utility. Does that count in your opinion as added value to the NFT?

• 31:15Speaker 02

  I, I, I believe in utility. I think the reason why Top Shot goes down is because there's not any like real utility. Yes, Gary, Gary was smart. Gary ties it to something. There's actual utility. The reason why there's a difference between bored apes and Crypto Punks, even though Crypto Punks were given credit as the OG, is because bored apes, you actually own the IP. There's utility there. So I, I, I do believe in, in real utility tied to it. And that's why I'm like, well, what, isn't it important that Bitcoin has, has real utility? And I Again, maybe I haven't listened to enough pomp shows, but I don't really see the real

• 31:59Speaker 02

  utility. In fact, I think I feel like it's going backwards. We're talking about it as a replacement for cash or alongside cash or along the dollar. That's why I should invest in it. And I don't see, I see ETH. I see Luna.

• 32:12Speaker 04

  Well, Bitcoin is certainly a store of value right now. And we believe that it'll make its way to a medium of exchange. It obviously has to get less volatile to do that. Obviously, you don't want things-

• 32:21Speaker 02

  People who are in since November are down, are down 50%. That's their store of value.

• 32:26Speaker 04

  Okay, so it's less than 50. Yeah, and their, their value has appreciated. I think, I think the value-

• 32:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's tricky. It's less than 50 because it went up today a little bit, but okay.

• 32:35Speaker 04

  I, I think, I think in context, part of your problem is that people are very loud about these things, right? And uneducated people lose money. But ultimately, one of the challenging things is, in my opinion, you're ushering in a completely new technology, right? And you're trying to get people around the globe to adopt this. So there is no marketing team. There's no money being spent to do these certain things. There is no Bitcoin team that's going out and doing this. So the only way that this can happen, and it has happened over the last decade, is individuals promoting this, right? More people joining the network, more people starting up nodes, more people mining, doing all these certain things. So I think that's an important part. But I think it's unfair to say that it's not valuable, right? Because the, the, the network itself is valuable, right? There are, there are transactions happening. Not only that, but it's programmatic supply,

• 33:19Speaker 04

  it's constrained, unlike the US dollar, which has, they can print 40% of the last dollars were created in the last 18 to 24 months, right? So I'm not saying that it applies everywhere in the world and it is the best thing ever. But ultimately, it can help a lot of people. And I think it's, it's, it's naive to just look past the fact that there are people in other circumstances that can really benefit from it.

• 33:38Anthony Pompliano?

  All right.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Can I just do one more? Can I just do one more question?

• 33:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. Because Darren, you, you got me and Joe here, and you know, we're like destroying you in this debate. But we have our third brother, John here.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  He's your own referee.

• 33:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Why don't we add-

• 33:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Management can change the rules. John hasn't said anything the entire time. John is the nicest one-

• 33:59Speaker 02

  He hasn't. I thought he had laryngitis.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  Nah, no, Darren, I got, I got one thing just to ask you is I respect the hell out of you. You're very smart, very, uh, you have a ton of dedication to your craft. I really appreciate that. My only question to you is think about how you say you care about the little person and the youth, but then promote sports betting, which I think was it 95% of people lose money in? And I don't think it's a good long-term savings tool, investing, it's gambling. But just think about that.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  That's one of the rea- I, okay, so I'll address it one more time. So I am also a, I spend hundreds of hours every year in mental health. That is my side, my side thing. So people like, how can you do mental health when at the same time you could do gambling? And that's, that's why when I, that's why I promote my bankroll. I promote when I lose. I talk about when I lose. I talk, you know, so I try to do the best I can. I do love sports gambling and I realize it's negatives and its downfalls. But like, I also realize from a mental health standpoint, like it's not, it's not all about like, are we making money? Like what they're, the mental health standpoint of looking at your Bitcoin, whether it goes up or down is horrible.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  There are people who are, even if it goes up, if your Bitcoin goes up $500, I would say the way people are looking at their Bitcoin now, it, it's actually horrible for your mental health. And again, that's an individual decision, but the way people open their Coinbase or whatever they're looking at, they're jamming, whatever they're looking at, okay? Looking at it, the way that they look at it and their mental health is being determined by the up and down more than it's ever been more, they did not do this with stocks. They, most people do not do this with stocks, even with the advent of Robinhood. The Coinbase and especially Bitcoin, I think because of the youth and the amount and the percentage that they're putting into it, um, I, I think, I think there's there, whether it's a positive or negative,

• 35:55Speaker 02

  I think you guys, to turn it back on you, and yes, I accept responsibility for gambling. It's why I say bankroll. It's why I say I lost every bet today. It's why I lost 2,500, right? You know, that, but I think you guys too should be like, you know, uh, There is some sort of responsibility about what you're putting in and how much you're checking. I mean, I think with with everything that's gone down with COVID, it's been it's been pretty horrible not to have human interaction. And I think Bitcoin has benefited from everyone needing to, you know, juice themselves up and have their adrenaline every day. And I think there's a clock.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  So so we're going to wrap up here in a second, but I I.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Oh, we can't do this until seven o'clock.

• 36:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, listen, if you just want to get punched in the face verbally.

• 36:38Speaker 04

  Well, I think this is important because we've gone back and forth on sports betting, and I don't think any of us thinks sports betting should be illegal. Actually, quite the contrary, I think it should be legalized, and I think people should be able to make their own decisions, educated. And I think it's the exact same thing when it comes to savings technology. There should be education around it, and then people can make their own decisions. If you've watched the show, and I know you have before, and people that are watching now can attest to this. We always say the same thing, only put in what you're willing to lose, dollar cost average over time. The same investing principles apply to this. It's just a new form of savings technology in our opinion, right? So I think it's more about education, and I understand your point of frustration because there's a lot of scammers in crypto. There's a ton of people losing money and scamming people, and it's terrible. So there is certainly a mental health aspect to that. But I liken it to the same way of gambling, right?

• 37:20Speaker 04

  There just needs to be education about what the risks are, and people need to only bet or invest what they are willing to lose.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Is it gambling or investing, putting in Bitcoin, investing? Is it a currency saving? Is it investing? Because it can't be both. It can't be investing in a currency.

• 37:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, it can. It can. There's an entire foreign currency market where people invest in currencies. That's like a thing.

• 37:45Speaker 03

  Darren, there's there's no avoiding looking at the price of Bitcoin in my mind, especially how how much conviction I have with it. But I normally look at it through the tools of financial inclusion and the technology behind it. And the people can help through that. But yes, there is no avoiding looking at the price of Bitcoin.

• 38:01Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, listen, I got one last thing. Ready? I'll help you right now. This is actually the nicest thing I can do. If you go on Twitter and go in your settings on your iPhone, you can turn on Twitter tips. And those tips, people can send you Bitcoin. And I'm willing to bet if you do that, and then you tweet out and say, I just turned this on, let me see how it works. I bet you some people will send you some Bitcoin. I'll send you some Bitcoin across Twitter.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  I'm not going to do that. That would not be good.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  Well, we appreciate you coming on, Darren.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  You're the best. This was fun.

• 38:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Where should we send people to find your great sports takes but bad Bitcoin takes?

• 38:34Speaker 02

  I'm actually ramping up my bad Bitcoin takes on my Instagram stories.

• 38:39Anthony Pompliano?

  I know, you were literally sending people to Instagram. You were literally posting tulip farm pictures yesterday.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  I was, I was.

• 38:48Anthony Pompliano?

  That was pretty good.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  I like tulips. I do like tulips more than Bitcoin.

• 38:51Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, all right, all right. We appreciate you coming on.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  All right, thanks, guys.

• 38:54Anthony Pompliano?

  See you soon.