#776 Building Decentralized Exchanges For Retail Traders w/ Mark Lurie

Mark Lurie is the CEO of Shipyard Software. They specialize in building decentralized exchanges focused on specific types of users in the DeFi space. In this conversation we discuss Decentralized Exchanges, technical trade-offs, liquidity management, and changes in incentive structures. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= Compass Mining is the world's first online marketplace for bitcoin mining hardware and hosting. Compass was founded with the goal of making it easy for everyone to mine bitcoin. Visit compassmining.io to start mining bitcoin today! ======================= Crypto is all about democratization and freedom of choice. But many companies limit their offerings to centralized trading products. The crypto companies leading the pack in terms of innovation are those that extend access to the industry's cutting-edge products and services — bridging CeFi and DeFi. If you're searching for a platform that reflects crypto's promise of a more open and less restrictive financial future, look no further than OKEx. On OKEx now you can easily switch over to the new DeFi mode, connect OKEx's bespoke Web 3.0 wallet via browser extension and start exploring opportunities at the bleeding edge of crypto. From the DeFi Dashboard, you can monitor your portfolio of self-custodied assets across a range of blockchain networks and generate passive income from yield-farming with top DeFi protocols. In the NFT Marketplace, you can participate in exclusive drops and trade nonfungible tokens without secondary market fees. Meanwhile, the GameFi section is your portal to the latest and greatest in play-to-earn and blockchain gaming. Venture to the forefront of crypto innovation and connect with OKEx DeFi today. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Mark Lurie is the CEO of Shipyard Software. They specialize in building decentralized exchanges, especially things for specific types of users in the DeFi space. In this conversation, we talk about decentralized exchanges, all the technical trade-offs that go into building them, how they think about liquidity management, and what the change and incentives are in this new system. I really enjoyed this conversation with Mark, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is LMAX Digital, the number one institutional crypto exchange. They offer

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  clients the deepest pool of crypto liquidity on the planet, underscored by 100% uptime track record through volatility spikes. They leverage LMAX Group's liquidity relationships and ultra-low latency technology. LMAX Digital is the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading and custodial services. If you've never heard of LMAX Digital, it's probably because you're not an institution. They have no retail, only institutions. They feature a central limit-order book streaming spot Bitcoin, Ether, Litecoin, and Bitcoin Cash, all paired with US dollars, Euro, and Yen. LMAX Digital, they're secure, they're liquid, and they're trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp. Again, LMAXdigital.com/pomp.

• 1:27Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Start mining your own Bitcoin today by visiting compassmining.io. Again, compassmining.io. Go check them out and let me know what you think. Last but not least are my friends over at OKX. Crypto is all about democratization and freedom of choice, but many companies limit their offerings to centralized trading products. The crypto companies leading the pack in terms of innovation are those that extend access to the industry's cutting-edge products and services, bridging C5 and DeFi. If you're searching for a platform that reflects crypto's promise, but more open and less restrictive financial future, look no further than OKX. On OKX now, you can easily switch over to the new DeFi mode. Connect OKX's bespoke Web3 wallet via browser extension and start exploring opportunities

• 2:56Anthony Pompliano?

  at the bleeding edge of crypto. From the DeFi dashboard, you can monitor your portfolio of self-custodied assets across a range of blockchain networks and generate passive income from yield farming with top DeFi protocols. In the NFT marketplace, you can participate in exclusive drops and trade non-fungible tokens without secondary market fees. Meanwhile, the GameFi section is your portal to the latest and greatest in play-to-earn and blockchain gaming. Venture to the forefront of crypto innovation and connect with OKX DeFi today. Again, go check them out at OKX. That's where you can find OKX DeFi. All right, let's get into this episode. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:56Anthony Pompliano?

  First, let's kick this off with decentralized exchanges in general. For those that don't know, help us understand what the difference between a centralized exchanges and a decentralized exchange.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Sure. So in a, in traditional markets, the way you exchange assets is through a central limit order book. This is what you're probably familiar with if you've gone to, you know, the New York Stock Exchange and you've tried to trade assets. And basically what happens is a bunch of buyers say, I'll buy X units at Y price and a bunch of sellers say, I'll buy Z units at W price. And there's a stack of orders and they're happening thousands of times a second and they're matched at the margin and that's the market price. And that's how most markets work in the traditional financial system.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  The problem is that that doesn't really work on the blockchain for two reasons. First, it's really slow and you just can't have thousands of orders popping on and off, given how slow the blockchain is. And the second, it's pretty expensive, right? The gas to post an order is pretty expensive. And the the storage cost for keeping stuff on chain is pretty expensive. And so a central limit order book just isn't really practical. And so that's why this new model called automated market making was developed. And so I can tell you about that, but first, any questions?

• 5:23Anthony Pompliano?

  No, let's do the AMMs, the automated market making. Explain what that is.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Okay, great. So first, some context here. So Shipyard designs decentralized exchanges that uses automated market making technology. And we're building a bunch of these different exchanges that are kind of best execution for specific types of users. And the reasons we're good at this is for a couple of reasons. One is, you know, we've been in the space for a while. And the second is, A, my partner and our CTO is one of the foundational researchers in making automated market makers work for this type of context. So how does an automated market maker work?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Well, instead of this central limit order book, there's a standing pool of capital on the blockchain. Anyone can deposit assets into. So let's say you put a bunch of ETH and a bunch of USDC in, and that just sits there. That's liquidity pool. And there's a math formula in the automated market making that says, here's the price. Anyone can trade with this pool for a price determined by this math formula. And that's like a very, it's pretty simple code. And it means you don't need thousands of orders, you know, flowing around. You can just have a trader that comes and says, well, I want USDC and I'll put an ETH or vice versa. And the automated market maker will always quote a price.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Now, why did liquidity, why did the people who contribute capital to the liquidity pool do this? Well, a fee is added for every trade and that fee makes the liquidity pool larger. And that creates yield and a return for those liquidity providers, which are known as LPs. So that's why the whole system works. It's kind of like a marketplace. Everyone's happy.

• 7:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. So obviously, the most popular decentralized exchange so far has been Uniswap, or at least historically, the most popular. When you think about that, you guys say, hey, look, that's a great idea. We love decentralized exchanges, from what I understand. But we think that there are certain technical trade-offs that are made to get the most amount of liquidity onto a decentralized exchange. And so that may not be the ideal venue for everyone to trade there. It's really good for, it sounds like, very large transactions. So if I do hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in a transaction, then going to somewhere where there's tons and tons of liquidity is great. But if I want to do, let's say, a $1,000 transaction, going to those large liquidity kind of venues may not actually be the best

• 8:00Anthony Pompliano?

  thing because of some of these fees. So maybe help me understand in terms of how you look at the difference between, let's say, Uniswap, and then the product you guys built, the first one is called Clipper, which is more focused on like the retail trade. Like, what are the big differences here? And depending on who you are, why should you go to each one of them as a trading venue?

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Makes sense. Yes. So that's exactly right. So Uniswap was really the first decentralized exchange, or DEX, and it has a very simple formula, which is, you know, essentially, it keeps, it has a price based on the ratio of assets in the liquidity pool. And this is kind of a one-size-fits-all approach, right? Everyone goes and uses this automated market maker, and the pricing formula is X times Y equals K. Asset one times asset two equals K. And, you know, it turns out like a one-size-fits-all, pretty simplistic approach, isn't the best for certain people. Some people have very small trades, and there's a different

• 9:02Speaker 02

  math formula which would result in different prices. Some people want really big trades, and they want a different architecture. And that's why you don't have one huge market in the traditional financial industry. You have many different exchanges for different types of trade, traders, or instruments. And so, in the case of Uniswap...

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Because their formula is, and pricing formulas is kind of based on the ratio of assets in the pool, they want as many, as much liquidity in the pool as possible. So Uniswap has billions of dollars. And what that means is that when you do a really large trade, let's say a $500,000 trade or a million dollar trade, you're going to get less slippage, slightly better prices. Okay. And that's how Uniswap competes. But it turns out that, you know, a small trade, let's say like a thousand dollar trade, doesn't really matter from a price perspective if you're trading in like a $10 million pool or a billion dollar pool, right? The slippage, the price change is pretty low.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  But you're, you're still paying high fees on Uniswap because Uniswap needs all these, these fees to generate yield, to attract billions of dollars of capital that then helps the large traders. And so retail traders are really subsidizing whales. And so we looked at that and we said, hey, that, that doesn't really make sense. Like that's, if we're retail traders, that's not, that we don't want to be subsidizing whales and paying high fees just so they can have more liquidity. And so what we did with Clipper is we say, let's carve out a portion of the market, focus just on retail traders. This is clipper.exe.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  And so for retail traders, what we did is we capped the liquidity pool. We said, let's only let $20 million in liquidity. And what that lets us do is drop the fees dramatically. And that, that means, you know, slippage increases a bit, but for small trades, it doesn't increase that much. And the drop in fees outweighs the increase in slippage. And so what we have is better prices overall. Now it means we have terrible prices for large trades. There's really high slippage, but that's okay. That's not what Clippers focused on. And so what we've done is just made a series of design trade offs because we have a specific user in mind, which is the retail trader. And so if you are a retail trader making trades under $10,000, you should go to clipper exchange instead of Uniswap and you will get a better price.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  If you're a large trader, you should go to Uniswap. Or maybe you should go to another exchange built for large traders. Because execution really matters. And if you're not getting the best execution, you're losing money that could be in your pocket.

• 11:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Makes complete sense in terms of there's specific design or kind of technical trade offs that you make. And if you optimize for certain types of people, then you'd make different decisions. Help me understand, what are some of the other types of specialized decentralized exchanges that you all see as opportunity? Obviously, don't reveal anything that would be detrimental to the business. But are there other things that you're like, yeah, we definitely see the opportunity to build specialization and other kind of design trade offs?

• 12:05Speaker 02

  There's so many, so many. We're still at like such an early stage of design for decentralized exchanges and DeFi in general. So we're focused on small trades, retail trades on major pairs like BTC and ETH against stables. There's another design for really new tokens, right? Where volatility is super high and price is a lot harder to determine and market depth is lower. And so there's a whole nother design just for that. There's another design just for large traders, right? Because they really don't want to be front run. They have different concerns.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  There's another design for different types of assets, whether it's derivatives or synthetics, et cetera, et cetera. And so there's just like a lot of different, there's as many designs as there are types of traders and users, because you're always making design trade offs. And if there's a different type of user, there's going to be a different type of design trade off for them.

• 13:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then when you think about how these decentralized exchanges, obviously there is decentralization around the technology itself that you guys are building, but you guys are a centralized company. How do you kind of balance the centralization of the company and hiring employees and, you know, marketing team and software developers and all of that and kind of a more traditional corporate structure with the building of decentralized products?

• 13:37Speaker 02

  It's a really tough problem. And, you know, the, I think a lot of DeFi projects struggle with this decentralization dilemma. So in our case, Shipyard Software is a US corporation. We developed the software, the code for decentralized exchanges. Clipper is our first exchange. Clipper is public software that runs in a decentralized way on the blockchain, even though we developed it. So we are not Clipper, but we are the developers of Clipper. Over time, we want decentralized governance, but that's a really hard and tricky thing to do. You know, you have very centralized companies that essentially dictate every product decision.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  And then you have really decentralized companies like Sushi Swap, very decentralized organization, but they have all sorts of dysfunction as a result because there's not clear leadership. And so, you know, it's a tough problem. And I think it's to solve this decentralization dilemma, you have to kind of progressively decentralize. There's no clear way to do that, but it's something we're committed to figuring out.

• 14:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's really interesting when you start thinking about the various challenges here. And also, I guess, part of this is, you know, decentralization, I think, for the most part, people think about the importance of it is either security, some sort of resistance to state attack, like they immediately jump to, I think, what is the classic uses for decentralization. In some way, what you're talking about here is less about the ability to resist state attack or something around security in that nature. And it's much more about a different way of having the order books operate and get liquidity onto the actual trading venue. And it changes some of the economic incentives. It allows for you to do different technical trade-offs. And so it's unique to

• 15:30Anthony Pompliano?

  kind of think through why people are creating these decentralized exchanges, not just how they're doing it as well.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. And, you know, if you think about decentralization, I think you can be clever about how you're decentralizing, right? So you've said a few. One, you know, one is resistant from resistance from state censorship. You know, another is governance by its users.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  There's a whole bunch of others. And so, and so to say that everything needs to be decentralized is maybe a little bit of a red herring. Instead, you can focus on specific elements of the product that need to be decentralized in the way to ensure censorship resistance, in the way to ensure there's clear leadership, but users have a say in the roadmap. And so I think there's a way to balance all these things that accomplishes the goal without throwing this label like, you know, decentralization or bust over everything.

• 16:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Because that can create dysfunction.

• 16:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And I guess Joe and John, what questions do you guys have? And then I'll continue.

• 16:37Speaker 03

  My question would just be around going after specifically retail traders versus more institutional traders, right? Like, why was that the decision? What kind of trade-offs are there when you cater to one group rather than the other?

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a great question. Our mission is to, as a company, is to help create free and fair markets and for as many people as possible, right? Because markets are like an engine of human progress and often we see they're not really free. Often they're manipulated or constrained, especially by authoritarian governments. And often they're not fair, and the rules are changed after the fact. And so we thought, well, like, how can we manifest that mission? Well, we really need to touch the most number of users. And that meant focusing on retail, because that affects the most number of people, as opposed to a handful of institutions and market makers. So that's why we did it.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  And then we kind of thought deeply about, okay, well, like, what are the design trade-offs we'd make just for that user? But there's a trade-off there from a business perspective, and that's that small trades, you know, we get lots of transactions, but not high volume, right? Because they're small trades. If we were to focus on institutionals, we'd have small number of trades, but huge dollar value in transaction volume. And, you know, that's a vanity metric that a lot of people in the market care about, even though I would say they shouldn't. But, you know, that's a trade-off from a business perspective, but we're being true to our mission, and so we feel good about it.

• 18:08Anthony Pompliano?

  John, what do you got?

• 18:09Speaker 04

  Mark, can you talk about the different types of customer acquisition you guys have thought about through incentives and other forms?

• 18:15Speaker 02

  That's a great question, and I think it's one that people in crypto need to focus more on. Classic entrepreneur's mistake is having a great product, but no way to get users, no distribution. Distribution really matters. So how do we get distribution? We plug into DEX aggregators. So DEX aggregators are like kayak.com for flights. You go to kayak.com, you put in where you want to go, from Boston to Salt Lake City, and they show you the airlines with the best prices. And most people just go for the flight with the cheapest price. Similarly, in DeFi, there's DEX aggregators like 1inch and Matcha, which is built by ZeroX.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  And you put in the trade you want to make, and they'll show you the price you could get from 100 different DEXs, and they rank them. And because we have the best prices on small trades, we come up first on small trades. And that's where we get most of our flow. What we also find is that people get excited about our community, and they see us on the DEX aggregator listings, and then they start coming to us directly and realize, hey, I should just do all my trades here because I'm getting the best price and just go direct. So we've had a lot of organic usage come up. But our main customer acquisition channel is DEX aggregators. And I would recommend that other DEXs or bridges or what have you really focus on

• 19:43Speaker 02

  that as a distribution mechanism because they really need to have one.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  If you are okay with sharing, can you just talk about the incentive for those DEX aggregators? Is it on a percentage basis of the trade, or is it just on an overall, like one-time fee? How does it work there?

• 19:58Speaker 02

  So different DEX aggregators have different models, how they

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Make money. But their mission is to provide the best prices out there for their users. And so the reason Dex aggregators want to integrate with us is because we have best prices. So they can then deliver that to their users. Right? They're constantly competing with each other. If they don't have the decks with the best prices, then people are going to stop using one inch and they're going to start going to matcha or vice versa. And so that that's the strategic imperative for them to integrate well performing products.

• 20:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Gotcha.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  The the way they make money is, you know, some have a token, some charge a fee. You know, some charge a spread on gas. It depends, but they're taking some, they're usually taking some fee of some sort somewhere.

• 20:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Mark, when you think about building this stuff, talk to me about like the team. Is this something that takes like two or three developers a couple of days? Is this like a, you know, six month, 12 month roadmap type stuff? Like, how difficult is it actually to to create these decks from a technical standpoint? And how do you think about allocating human resources to do it as you kind of work on multiple ones across time?

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a really good question because on the one hand, you know, one developer can fork a Dex and throw it up on the blockchain in like, you know, a day. But a lot more goes into success than that. One is, you know, you have to think deeply in order to be differentiated. And so we have a research team that really spends a lot of time thinking about what are the right technical trade offs. That takes a while. Then we also have, you know, a marketing team. And the community is so important in crypto to get people involved, to get users. And so we also have a marketing team. We work in the great firm called Serotonin.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  And then there's also a legal regulatory aspect. So there's like a lot that goes into it, you know? I'd say we have about 15 FTEs, like full-time equivalents at this point. And I think we're running pretty lean. So this takes real resources to do well. You know, you can just throw something up and people do, but those are hit or miss. And as many examples of successes you see there, there's probably 10 or 100x of failures. And I guess I would say I don't think they're innovating or doing something thoughtful. And a lot of times you see that in yields.

• 22:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, and so I guess my last question for you is just around capitalism is all about, how do I build something, service a need and make money? When you build the decentralized exchanges, there's like an incentive alignment with the liquidity providers, obviously. How do you guys make money? How do you think about like where you make money versus where maybe you shouldn't make money or you should pass that through to other folks within the ecosystem? Like, how do you think just about the design and almost like system decisions that you have to make around how you sustain yourself as a business?

• 23:16Speaker 02

  That is a great question. I'll talk a little bit about the DEX, but I won't answer that in detail. Partially because in some ways it's TBD.

• 23:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, that's fine.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  So how does the, how do the LPs make money? The more volume there is on us, if you can hold the liquidity constant, the more fees will come into the pool, right? It's really not fees, it's that the prices are favorable and so the pool appreciates. So like in our Polygon, in Clipper's Polygon pool, you know, right now, we've been going for a month, we're running at 50 to 70% annualized yields with no liquidity mining. That's just like natural annualized yields if you're in the, in the pool. And so that's like, there's money being made there.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Now, I won't comment on our business model, but I can comment on how other DEXs are doing things, right? So Uniswap, they take, and Sushi Swap, they take a fee, a percentage of that fee. And that either goes to their token holders, or it might go to a treasury, and then that funds operations. So that's a pretty common business model you see in the space. We have not done that. It's certainly something we could do. There's also legal considerations around it. But I'm generally of the attitude that we're so early in the space that if you just make really good things that people use, the rest will figure itself out. And we've

• 24:53Speaker 02

  raised a bit of money to cover ourselves in the meantime. So we raised for Polychain, and a few other businesses, firms, who, you know, who help us cover our expenses while we make a big splash in the market.

• 25:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Sounds like you need money for the pomp boys. That's what I heard there.

• 25:13Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So I guess one other thing that that made me think about is, as you're building this, why should somebody come work with you guys, rather than go work at Coinbase, Gemini, and some of the centralized exchanges? Are there like fundamental differences in the experience they'll have, in the ethos of the business, and the cult? Like, what is the big difference? Or is it just like, no, literally, it's just technical architecture, centralized or decentralized, you're still working on exchanges, and there's not as much difference as you might think?

• 25:44Speaker 02

  I think the, if you're thinking about where to get a job, I think that you need to think about a few things. First is the mission of the business, right? I've talked a little bit about ours, so that has to be something you believe in. Second is, the kind of like size and stage of the company, right? If you want to work at a really large company, then like, you know, you probably won't like a startup. And I think Coinbase, at this point, is a pretty large company. At a startup, you can have enormous impact. You can move really fast. And you can, you know, make progress on really innovative things, really quickly. And then I would say, within a startup, like, you know, you

• 26:28Speaker 02

  want one that's doing, it's like, thinking deeply. Because if you have a team that has experience and is thinking deeply about users... They're going to be successful one way or the other. And so you're going to be getting on a rocket ship. And the final thing I'd say is management, I think you want to join a team where leadership cares not just about the mission of their business, but wants to make sure that also furthers your aspirations, your career aspirations as an individual and is willing to mentor and encourage those. So if, if that is all stuff that you want, then I really encourage you to reach out for us. We're looking to build best-in-class product, best-in-class research, best-in-class marketing

• 27:09Speaker 02

  community, you know, and, and so we're hiring. We'd love for you to, to go to shipyardsoftware.org, contact us. You can also follow me on, on Twitter, @MarkLurie.

• 27:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome, man. This is, this is super cool. I love the idea of understanding the technical trade-offs and basically building specialized products for special users, you know, or certain types of users. Feels like that is a, a great wedge into the market and it's obvious. Cause what Clipper is top five, top 10 DEX in the world?

• 27:39Speaker 02

  By users, yeah.

• 27:40Anthony Pompliano?

  By users? Okay. So when you, yeah, obviously you guys are at a disadvantage because you have smaller, you know, kind of transaction sizes, just given the nature of, of who goes there. But I mean, that alone speaks for itself, right? In terms of people want, want this stuff. So it's, it's pretty cool that you built that. Where can we find people to, to find you on the internet? Do you want us to send them? You want to go Twitter? You want to go LinkedIn? Smoke screen? What, what do you want?

• 28:05Speaker 02

  I would love, you can find me on Twitter, @MarkLurie, M A R K L U R I E. You can also visit clipper exchange. That's clipper dot exchange, C I C L I P P E R dot exchange, where you can get the best prices on trades under 10K. For those listening, you should really use it. And if you want to read a little bit more about our team, you can go to shipyardsoftware.org and, you know, learn about who we are.

• 28:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. You guys got anything else? Nope. Thanks for calling.

• 28:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, thank you, Mark.

• 28:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Legend. Keep it up. I can't wait to see the next one you guys launch. It's going to, I feel like you're just on this mission of just banging out DEXs. So I'm, I'm excited.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  That's what we're doing. We'll let you know when the next one launches. Thanks so much.

• 28:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Sounds good, Mark. Thanks.