#774 Investing In Human Longevity And Future Tech w/ Christian Angermayer

Christian Angermayer is a billionaire and the founder Apeiron Investment Group. In this conversation, we deep dive into Christian's investments and his views on where the world is going. We discuss human longevity and health optimization, Bitcoin, Inflation, Fed policy, the future of human communication, and how Christian views the next year for the U. S. economy. ======================= Today’s episode is sponsored by Abra. Based in California and backed by top VC firms, Abra is an all-in-one simple, secure app that allows you to trade over 110 cryptocurrencies, get 0% interest loans using your crypto as collateral and earn interest with up to 14% APY on stablecoins and 8.15% APY on Bitcoin. Join nearly 2 million users by downloading Abra from the Google Play or Apple App store. If you download the app today, you will get $15 in free crypto once you fund your account. You came, you invested — now conquer. ======================= Unstoppable Domains is THE #1 provider of NFT domains. These aren’t traditional domains, these are domains with superpowers. With your unique NFT domain such as pomp dot crypto or pomp dot nft, you can replace your long complex wallet addresses, verify ownership of your NFTs and join the 10’s of thousands of people who are now using their NFT domain as their Twitter and Discord usernames. Go to unstoppabledomains.com and get YourName dot crypto, dot x, dot nft or a range of other endings for as low as $5 and never worry about gas or renewal fees because with Unstoppable Domains you pay once and own forever! ======================= Nasdaq-listed BTCS was the first US-public company to secure today’s top layer one protocols. Recently, BTCS launched the beta version of its digital asset analytics dashboard! From across multiple exchanges, the BTCS Data Analytics Dashboard lets you evaluate your entire portfolio’s performance with plans to add year-end reports and yield earning on your crypto through linking to staking pools. Test out the BTCS Data Analytics Dashboard today at BTCS.com. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Christian Angermeyer is the founder of a Pyron Investment Group. In this conversation, we talk about everything from Bitcoin to macro, to Fed policy, to longevity and psychedelics. Christian is one of those people who has his hands all over disruptive technology and is one of my favorite people to talk about in the world. I really hope that you enjoy this conversation, but before we get into this episode, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. Today's episode is brought to you by Abra. Based in California and backed by top VC firms, Abra is an all-in-one, simple, secure app that allows you to trade over 110

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  cryptocurrencies, get 0% interest loans using your crypto as collateral, and earn interest with up to 14% APY on stablecoins and 8.15% APY on Bitcoin. You can join nearly 2 million users by downloading Abra from the Google Play or Apple App Store. If you download the app today, you'll get $15 in free crypto once you fund your account. You can go to abra.com to learn more. You came, you invested, now conquer. Abra, conquer crypto. Abra.com, go check it out today. Today's episode is brought to you by Unstoppable Domains. Unstoppable Domains is the number one provider of NFT domains. These aren't traditional domains, these are domains with superpowers. With your unique NFT domains such as pomp.crypto or pomp.nft, you can

• 1:29Anthony Pompliano?

  replace your long, complex wallet addresses, verify ownership of your NFTs, enjoy the tens of thousands of people who are now using their NFT domain as their Twitter and Discord usernames. Go to unstoppabledomains.com and get your name dot crypto, dot X, dot NFT, or a range of other endings for as low as $5. And never worry about gas or renewal fees because with Unstoppable Domains, you pay once and you own it forever. Head on over to unstoppabledomains.com today to check out more about what they've got. Again, go there and you can get any domain with any ending for as low as $5. UnstoppableDomains.com. Today's episode is brought to you by BTCS.

• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

  BTC is a NASDAQ listed company. It's the first US public company to secure many of the top Layer 1 protocols. This quarter, BTC just launched the beta version of a new digital asset analytics dashboard. From across multiple exchanges, the BTC data analytics dashboard lets you evaluate your entire portfolio's performance with plans to enable year-end reports and yield earning on your crypto by linking to BTC's sneaking pools. This groundbreaking dashboard is currently in beta mode. Test out the BTC data analytics dashboard now by visiting BTC.com. Again, that's BTC.com. Go check it out.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:09Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Christian is here. How are you, sir?

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Good, good.

• 3:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you ready?

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Well, relaxed. Yeah.

• 3:15Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. We got a lot of stuff to go over. First, let's start with macro stuff. You have a very unique background in that you know pretty much every macro investor in the world. Spent a lot of time talking to them over the last decade or decade and a half. Interest rates seem to be the most important data point in the world right now. What are your thoughts on maybe US kind of Fed-related interest rate decisions? And then globally, how do you look at this and evaluate what's going to happen here?

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Well, so first of all, thanks for having me. My first, really first thing after the holidays, I came in last night. So I'm still need to get my brain up to speed, you know?

• 3:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Ah, you're good.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Two weeks of holidays, like you slow down and you're like chilled out. Now I need to be like, my first thing is need to be super smart. So yes, as you said, by the way, so I'm not a macro guy myself, so I'm building companies. And but I'm, A, I think if you build companies and invest, so we're doing both at a Pyron, we're starting companies ourselves. And we're investing in, as you said, disruptive tech and biotech companies. You have to have a feeling and understanding for what's driving the world. And as we all know, the big driver of the last decade was cheap money. So my view is that, how do I simplify it? First of all, I think the, and I know it's maybe not the most mainstream view.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  I still think a big part of the inflation we see is transitory. Because it's mainly driven, yes, we pumped a lot of money in it, but it's mainly driven by supply chain issues, which are because of COVID and the insane way a lot of countries and parts of America are handling it. So somewhere we're gonna go back to normal, yeah, somewhere. And then with a time delay, obviously, but I think when supply chains go back to normal, at least part of that inflation, not all of it, but part of it will go away. And I do think, and also from the discussions I have with politicians especially, they know that, but now comes the but. The, we are in an election here in America.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  And I think we all can agree that sort of the independency of central banks in generally, let's say, at least has suffered over the last years, to say it friendly. So I think the deal Powell has with Biden is, hey, you're gonna be reappointed. Because a lot of people thought he's not gonna be reappointed. But you have to be at least verbally hawkish before the midterm elections. Because that is what is driving Americans. Americans want to see the president and the administration doing something against inflation. Truth is, the thing they can do is go back to normal as soon as quickly. Yeah, but that's not the message people wanna hear.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  And we live in this weird world where it's all about messaging and politically correctness and blah, blah, blah. So my view is, yeah, there is a mandate Powell got to before the midterm elections to talk about more hawkish than the Fed ultimately will be. Yeah, in order to support the midterm elections.

• 6:23Anthony Pompliano?

  So is it fair to say that on the way up, let's call it, the Fed basically presented their view? And we're like, hey, inflation is not going to be a problem. Don't worry about it. Okay, now it's going to be transitory. We saw some articles from the media saying inflation is good for you, you know, the whole thing. But they essentially lagged on their enthusiasm for how hot the market would get. And now, as we go kind of in the other direction, they're basically going to talk about a really kind of dovish hawkish, however you want to talk about it, situation. And they're going to do so in a way that if they talk about it as really bad, but it ends up not being as aggressive in their moves, then in some way, they get the expectations driving down spending, driving down asset prices. And it, you know,

• 7:07Anthony Pompliano?

  there's a belief that like, the more you talk about inflation, the more that it shows up, the more that you talk about we're going to combat it. I think their thought processes that actually it'll kind of come down.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  I think the main thing is really election driven, yeah, of the talking it down. But I think it was a good summary. But ultimately, to end sort of my thought process, like ultimately, because you had your scene on, I think actually Kathy is right. Yeah. So very simplified. If you look at what's happening in the world in terms of technological disruption, that is overall very deflationary. So and actually, years ago, some years ago, people were really worried about deflation. Now they worry about inflation. I think it's gonna fall back to a healthy level. A little bit of inflation would be actually good. Yeah. And I do think overall, the sort of dovish, yeah, so soft Fed and ECB anyway, because Europe is in a

• 7:57Speaker 02

  worse shape economically. Yeah, the soft central bank sort of policy will stay. Maybe we don't have zero interest rates, by the way, but that's also really very crazy. Like, but I think everything we are interested in, we, I mean, like you, me, like Bitcoin, asset prices for disruptive technology companies, we can totally live with one or 2% interest rates, maybe even three. Yeah. I think everything which would go beyond 3% interest rate in the long run, that would be sort of hurtful for innovation, valuations of tech companies. But a little bit back to 1 to 2% is actually healthy, because if I look back a year ago, sort of in the

• 8:40Speaker 02

  The hype or in the in the heights of the bubble of everything, there was also a little bit of, I think you can't say it on a show, what is the shit word like there was a lot of bullshit finance.

• 8:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, there's a lot of bullshit.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  So and I think it's it's healthy when it comes back to a little bit of normal. But I do think markets at the moment for growth stocks, if I look at biotech stocks or look at some of my own portfolio companies. If I look at Bitcoin, it's an overreaction. And I do think, though, that we're going to have a pretty challenging first half year. Because people will need to navigate that hawkish, at least verbally hawkish Fed, like economy not really picking up. So I think it's a it's a tough year to navigate or a tough first half year. But I do think in the second half year, we kind of going back to the old paradigm with a little bit more rationality and a little bit less craziness.

• 9:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so let's say that they do raise rates, which I think most people think that they will, but they probably won't do it three times as severely as.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  No, they will, but like I think they will do it in a sort of rational way.

• 9:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, so let's say they do that and our expectation would be that risks assets or kind of technology growth stocks, whatever, they all are going to sell off to some degree. They already have.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  They already have, I think.

• 9:51Anthony Pompliano?

  They already have, but and maybe they go lower, maybe they don't. How long can they last with those risk assets selling off? Or is there a period where they kind of capitulate from like the Fed level? And they're just like, okay, like this is enough bleeding to some degree. We either need to stabilize the rate and go ahead and tell the market, we're not going to raise past a certain point. Or they need to provide more quantitative easing or use one of the other tools in their toolbox, where they kind of try to find like a almost like a market equilibrium, right? We were going up a ton, now we're going down. Like, do they eventually just try to stabilize us somewhere and say like, okay, enough is enough on the downside? Like, here's where we want to stay?

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Well, that's an interesting point, because actually in a normal sort of central bank policy, the Fed shouldn't be worried about asset prices, like the Fed should be worried about inflation. And then lately, they expanded the mandate and said, we should be worried about about employment numbers. Yeah, but they shouldn't be worried about that. But.

• 10:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Remember, they were day trading the assets.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, fact is, I do think they are. I do think it is smart from them to be worried because but that's sort of my geopolitical view. I think we all agree the US is in kind of a silent war with China. And I think at the end, it's not gonna go into an armed conflict, but what will decide sort of this conflict or this race is the speed of technological innovation. So if I would be sitting in an administration, yeah, I would think day and night, how can I make sure that my country, the US, is sort of at the forefront of every technological innovation? And I know a lot of media people and investors made a little bit of fun. And yes, there was like craziness in the market where things which maybe are not worth anything or not

• 11:31Speaker 02

  worth a lot were hyped. But if I if we take a step back and look at the last 10 years, or especially the last, let's say, three years, five years, actually, because of the, let's call it easy money, a lot of great stuff was financed. So a lot of things which are positively happening now, yeah, are happening because money is cheap and money is easy, but it's driving our society and technological innovation forward. So I would actually say, I think they will never admit it, but I personally do believe that's sort of a thriving environment for growth stocks, yeah, not to make that's the cynical view, the rich richer, but actually to make the country more competitive towards especially China, yeah, is a strategy the

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Fed is is the administration, again, I think it's almost intermingled, administration and Fed is doing, yeah, and it's the right thing to do. I do think, though, for this year, as I said before, the political agenda prevails. So I think the Fed will more focus on sort of appeasing people and trying to show we're doing something against inflation than fostering innovation. So I do think growth stocks won't have an easy year. But I'm again, I'm just wanna quote her because I think she she wrote this awesome piece, Kathy Wood, before, like it was right around Christmas, where she had this term like actually growth stocks are in in deep value territory. And I think so they already sold off. So again, I'm not a trader. Yeah, I built companies. I own all the stocks for a long time.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  My gut feeling is like, if I look again at some of my portfolio companies, which I can judge, the sell off was crazy. Yeah. And it's extremely undervalued.

• 13:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When, when you think about an asset like maybe Bitcoin, for example, right? Which to me is like the ultimate risk asset from the traditional world. Now, many people in the crypto market would say, hey, Bitcoin is, you know, blueburn coin, or it's the least risky of all of them. And the long tail of crypto assets are even more risky. So take those people out for a second, just at the traditional market side. They look at Bitcoin as kind of the, the digital frontier or the most risky asset. Should we expect that to be the leading indicator of risk assets? Or actually, is it decoupling? Like, how do you look at the relationship between like a Bitcoin? And some of these growth stocks and other things? Should they move in tandem? Maybe it doesn't matter. Like, what do you think?

• 13:51Speaker 02

  It's a good question, because like, I do think factually they move in tandem. I think they should decouple, but they sort of don't. At least not on these days and weeks when the swings are broad. I think if we would look, if we will look back in like five years, I think there will have been a certain decoupling. But at the moment, I think they still very much correlated.

• 14:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Because it's the same people, like, in a, in a positive way, like, who is excited about Bitcoin? It's sort of rather the younger people. More and more institutions are moving in, but it's sort of the Miami crowd. Yeah. Who is excited about disruption or whatever? Again, Miami crowd, like, it's sort of, there is, I think, not because the assets are somehow, or the, the assets are related. It's more like that the people who get it, there is a big overlap between the believers in, in crypto, and especially Bitcoin, and the believers in, in disruptive technology.

• 14:42Anthony Pompliano?

  You said Miami crowds, so I'll go there. You spend your time all over the world, also in LA, New York, many places here in the United States. What is the Miami crowd to you? Like, what, what does that mean when you say that terminology?

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Well, lately, it's completely associated with crypto. So, which I think is a good thing. I think it's always good, meaning, yes, I know crypto is very like decentralized, and everybody's everywhere, but like, I think it's still good if, if things have a hub. Yeah, like. Silicon Valley was the hub for the last 20, 30 years. I think it's good if crypto develops a place where you know, if I come here and I text you, I'm going to be on the show the day, the next day. Like it's, I think it's a good thing that people are sort of have a place to mingle and to, I still believe in physical stuff, like you want to meet physically, whatever. So yeah. So that's a little bit in association for Miami.

• 15:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. And before we talk about a couple of the different companies that you have, just give us your general views right now on Bitcoin cryptocurrency in terms of at a period, you guys have a ton of different stuff going on. You play in a bunch of different markets, playing crypto, you're playing longevity psychedelics, a ton of different disruptive technologies. How do you think about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies as part of that portfolio? And how do you think about in terms of investing versus building companies in the space?

• 15:56Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah. So if I break it down, so in a Pyron, we have like three themes or sectors we're dealing with. We're doing biotech. We are investing crypto and fintech, which is for me very related. And then we have a third pocket, which we call a future tech. This is everything from AI to space tech. We're actually one of the largest investors, especially in European space tech companies to novel foods like lab grown meat, protein replacements, whatever. And then in these three sectors, we both start companies ourselves. So especially when we have an original idea and one of my sort of favorite examples for that is a tie, my psychedelics company,

• 16:36Speaker 02

  which I started in 2018 when I had sort of, when I had the idea before, because I love psychedelics personally, to, to bring back psychedelics as medicine, therapeutics for various mental health issues. So we do, we do start companies ourselves and we also invest in companies. And then we invest from any stage, from seed to growth financing, actually beyond even in IPOs and, and beyond that, we have around about 100 portfolio companies across these three sectors.

• 17:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so let's talk about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency first, then we'll get to the other sectors you focus on. So you guys have exposure directly to the actual assets themselves.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 17:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Then you have three companies that I know of. You have Cryptology, you have Bullish, and you have Northern Data as kind of the three big ones. Walk us through those three companies and kind of how each one's doing and what you see going on there.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, so let's start with Cryptology because Cryptology is just sort of the umbrella. So I decided like when we were just like 2018, actually together with Mike Novogratz. So I owe him a lot because he sort of introduced me to these exciting fields, actually very early. If I would have listened to Mike, so big shout out because Mike in 2014 told me to buy Bitcoin and really relentlessly, and I didn't do it. I started in 2016, so not too late, but like, but still so big. Thank you. Hopefully he's watching to Mike. So Mike and I started Cryptology together, which sort of is a holding and it's in a meantime listed, so people can can buy into it, encompasses actually all my crypto investments.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  So all my crypto investments are exclusively done via Cryptology. So that's the umbrella. And in Cryptology, you have, as you said, Northern Data as one of our main assets, which is about, and I can give you some numbers later, is about to become one of the largest miners, both for Ethereum and for Bitcoin globally. Then we have a stake in Block One, and that's practically how we have an indirect stake in Bullish because so far, yeah, maybe some of the few, no, Bullish is a subsidiary, 100% subsidiary, or in the meantime, they did a financing, not 100% anymore, but majority subsidiary of Block One, but it's backed actually, so it merged with a spec. And when the merger is closing,

• 18:52Speaker 02

  hopefully in the first quarter, then it's traded sort of separately as a new kind of exchange. So we have that Block One and Bullish.

• 19:02Anthony Pompliano?

  So let's talk Northern Data first. Northern Data, obviously, is a very large miner. What's going on there? How big is it? What are they up to?

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Well, in some numbers, like they just, they do now a monthly reporting, which I think is really handy. So in December, they had 18,000 ASIC miners online and running, which created round about 227 BTC. And the amazing thing is, so Arush, the CEO, is one of the best guys I've ever worked with, so I love him. And he secured really massive amounts of both of ASICs miner and GPU miners in mid 2020. So I will never forget that when he pitched that to me, when the world was still like mid last year. I mean, we forget how quickly the world has changed.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  So in mid last year, he was like, hey, we have to buy large amount of equipment. Because back then it was super cheap, meaning all just the equipment prices alone have multiplied. And because Northern Data deployed so much capital last year, both in ASICs and GPUs, they actually have now prime relationships with the chip producers, which will come in very handy. Yeah, if Northern Data wants to grow even beyond. But just what they have now, end of 2022, they're gonna have 110,000 ASIC miners installed, which will round about make, depending on the hash rate, whatever. But round about my estimate, my personal one is 1,500 Bitcoin per month,

• 20:38Speaker 02

  which somehow will be against Ethereum, whatever the hash rate is developing. This will be like 10 extra hash roundabout, which my gut feeling is should be like 5% plus of the entire Bitcoin network. So meaning a massive, a massive. Yeah, very big. And then at the same time, they bought 223,000 GPUs, which is one of the largest, if not the largest GPU cluster in the world, which they use to mine at the moment mainly Ethereum, which gave them last month 5,700 Ethereum. And that's gonna be stable because they already deployed all the GPUs.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  Use while the A6 miner, they already have them, but actually they were they lagging behind. I mean, planned behind, but like the it took a little bit to build all the data centers. So practically, the A6 miner, which I said, which will run up to one hundred and ten thousand to the end of the year. It's they already there, so they have it. It's not like like a lot of people announce at the moment, oh, we wanna buy in the future. Yeah, they already have it, they just need to get it online. Yeah, so in total, I think they're gonna be against Ceteris Paribus. It'll be on the future, but like if I look at the Bitcoin prices as of today. Yeah, and the Ethereum prices, Northern Data should be on a run rate of round about hundred million dollar, eighty to hundred million dollar per month generated Bitcoin and Ethereum, which is pretty cool.

• 22:04Anthony Pompliano?

  That's pretty good. What about bullish?

• 22:07Speaker 02

  But maybe one more thing, because like what I also love with Northern Data, because why I think Arush is such a such a genius CEO. It's not just that, I mean, at the moment they're mining, but I also think there will be sort of kind of a convergence of using your data center for mining, especially on the GPU side, yeah, and using your data centers for industrial use, like AI companies needed. And AI in the meantime is not a sector, it's like it's it's sort of every big industry, from pharma to car companies, deploys kind of AI, big data, whatever. So the the real smart thing of Northern Data, what I'm what I'm excited about, is that they have these double business models.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  So as sort of as a baseline almost, they are creating mining Bitcoin and Ethereum, which, as I said, should against Ceteris Paribus bring like eighty hundred million dollar a month, once they fully, and then they're gonna grow further, but just once they have installed what they have in in storage now already. But then if especially for the GPUs, if tech companies are coming, if pharma companies are coming, car companies are coming, and rent part of this GPU cluster for more than what they what they would get with Ethereum money, they're gonna rent it out. So practically, it's sort of they either as a default, they can always say, hey, we mine ourselves. So we always fully fully utilized. But if some

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Somebody needs that capacity and pays Northern Data much more than again than Ethereum money will bring, then they rent it out. So it's a really smart business model.

• 23:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, now bullish, you guys through block one took a bunch of Bitcoin, right? You basically started an exchange, there's a lot of liquidity now because you have all of this Bitcoin that's there. You've done the SPAC, what's updates on what's going on with bullish?

• 23:59Speaker 02

  So they started, yeah, in beta and it's now broadly rolled out. And meaning they had already billions of dollars, meaning if you follow bullish on Twitter, they every some days they report like and already like on the week one or whatever it was, it was like, yeah, if I just look at Bitcoin, I think it was around about 15% or something of the trading volume of Coinbase in Bitcoin. Obviously Coinbase has much more, but like just like after some days, because Brandon really developed sort of this genius together with Tom, who's the incoming CEO, developed sort of this genius way to provide unprecedented liquidity depth.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if you, if you, if you look what exchanges are, they are a commodity and especially institutional investors will always go to the most liquid exchange. And I think with the algorithm and the business model bullish is, is doing, they by default, so to say, will be always the or one of the most liquid exchanges. So I'm extremely part of words like extremely bullish on bullish.

• 25:05Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. All right. I want to talk about longevity. First, I want to start with what you do from a longevity standpoint. I recently was listening to Andrew Huberman and David Sinclair did a podcast together. And I, I'm very intellectually interested in a bunch of the things that they talk about because some of them are very counterintuitive, right? So for those that are listening at home who haven't looked at a lot of this stuff, there's a simple example of David Sinclair and his colleagues have run tests where you can give an animal a certain number of calories and they can eat kind of throughout the day, that number of calories or. They can basically not eat at all, except for a small window of time, eat the same number of calories, but has a different impact on your body. And it's things around,

• 25:49Anthony Pompliano?

  hey, your body basically doesn't get a break when you're eating all throughout the day versus if you basically just eat all at once, then it has a different impact on it. And so what they're optimizing for is longevity. Other people have different diets and things they do, different routines, protocols, whatever, for things that they're optimizing that may not be longevity focused. I know you're interested in longevity. What do you do to try to live longer?

• 26:09Speaker 02

  Okay, so first of all, by the way, you said something very smart, like it's, and it's like, it's what are you want to optimize for? That is always when people ask me, what shall I take? What are you taking? It's like, really be honest to yourself. Do you want to, and for example, like some want to optimize for looks, yeah, which is not always the same than longevity. Like if you want to take human growth hormones, it's amazing. Yeah, but it's maybe, I think it's neutral, by the way, for longevity. But like, you know what I want to say? Like, it's always, yeah, what do you want to optimize for? So my interest in longevity is doubled. So I, let's start with briefly, and then I come to the supplements, and then we can go to science again. I deeply believe that over the next 20 years plus minus, I think it's gonna go actually faster than we think. Yeah,

• 26:51Speaker 02

  we gonna slow down, halt, and ultimately actually reverse aging. And that's gonna happen. Why? Because we have already, and David is a very good friend, working with him, yeah, we have already understood what aging is. It's a complex disease. It's not just one disease. Like, another colleague of mine, Manuel Serrano, coined this term, like, there is these nine hallmarks of aging. Yeah, these are nine thematic things which go practically wrong. But like, I think humanity has one great track record. Always when we have realized and understood a problem, someone we're gonna solve it. And I'm gonna think,

• 27:33Speaker 02

  this someone gonna happen the next 20 years. So what I'm solving for with my nutrition plan is that I'm not dying the next 20 years. Because I do think dying in the next 20 years is the most stupid time to die. Yeah, and it sounds actually, like, I'm 43 now, so I'm Most likely statistically, I'm here in 20 years, but it's not 100% given. If I would talk to my 10-year-old godson, he doesn't need to worry. He's gonna be there anyway unless he has an accident. Yeah, but like with 43, yeah, there is sort of a risk that whatever. Actually, there's two risks. There's if if I don't have cancer in the next 20 years. And if I don't have a cardiovascular disease and if I don't have an accident. Yeah, but these three things, then very, very likely I'm gonna be here.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  So my whole diet and intake of of therapeutics. Yeah, is focused on not getting cancer, not getting a cardiovascular disease. Being here in 20 years roundabout when the real stuff sort of comes. Because then I think the game is on because like people always think like, oh. When somebody says, and I deeply believe that we can live for some hundred years. And I do think we here in the room will live or have the opportunity to live for some hundred years. It's not gonna happen from one day to the other. There won't be one magic pill where we say, OK, now we take it. And now we live till 300 years, but it's gonna be a gradual shift. Yeah, and there is this famous thing like one day. We gonna win more years per year than the one year we lose.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  And that's then sort of the point when sort of optionality is on. And and by the way, also, I do believe we don't wanna live forever. Because people, interestingly, I just wanna mention, maybe not in this sort of crowd. But like, I actually was on holiday with friends and they're one said like, oh, no, like, this is sort of. Not right and da, da, da, and I was like, hey, A, I do think we don't want to live forever. Forever is a really long term. Yeah, but I I think it's the ultimate liberation for humanity. Yeah, and sort of fills in my libertarian fuse that you decide yourself when you wanna end this. Yeah, so I'm.

• 29:38Anthony Pompliano?

  You think people are gonna do that?

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Yes, I mean, I'm very sure.

• 29:40Anthony Pompliano?

  You think people are gonna have the ability to live forever? And one day they're like, ah, man, pull the plug.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Forever and never gonna happen because someone in the earth is gonna end. Like, there is always an accident risk. And if you play it out long enough statistically, you're gonna have.

• 29:51Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, this is what people came here to listen to. So here's here's I got a couple of questions. Uh, right now, average life expectancy, 77, 78 years old, 79 years old, somewhere in that range, I think. Or at least in the US.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  It's eighty five. In Europe, it's eighty five.

• 30:04Anthony Pompliano?

  I just looked it up in the United States for men, it's seventy eight, seventy nine years old. Yeah, that's the US.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  United States men. I think women a little bit more like, okay, let's say, let's say around eighty.

• 30:12Anthony Pompliano?

  So in Europe, of course, they live longer because they got a better life. So basically, your argument is the following. If you survive for the next twenty years, right, you're kind of in your early forties, you'd be early sixties. At that point, we've really started to kind of hit the exponential growth of we're gaining more years than we are losing on a twelve month period. So how far can we go if, let's say, we're at eighty on average right now globally for average life expectancy? Can we get it to a hundred in the next twenty years? Can we get it to two hundred? Like, just how much can we extend life in the next twenty years?

• 30:47Speaker 02

  Well, in the next twenty years, I think we're gonna go over a hundred. Yeah, I think there is, there is three sort of steps we need to take.

• 30:55Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a big jump.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's ten years, twenty years.

• 30:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, in the past twenty years, we've only gained two years in the United States. It was seventy six and now it's seventy eight. So that's a big jump for us here, at least.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and several reasons. The one is like, hopefully I get the number right because a colleague really did the math. By the way, James did the math, whom you had on as well, James Pyer, I think some months ago, who is a company I founded as well with him together, Cambrian. So we did the math, like, what would happen if, if we solve cancer? Yeah. And interestingly, statistically, this would add, I think the number we came up with was around about three years just. Because people think, oh, we solve cancer, we're gonna live ten years longer. But then somebody, something else hits you. That's actually the, the fickle thing with aging. Yeah, if you solve one thing, you're gonna have a stroke, or you're gonna have a, so you need to solve, these are these nine hallmarks of aging. You need to solve many problems at once, but I think it's solvable.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  So then the first, the one question we're gonna encounter, which nobody has to real answer, we have a hunch, is that, is there a natural limit? Yeah. So my view is like, let's just test it out. Like, I'm happy if we go towards hundred, because there are, there are some scientists to think like, okay, there might be like sort of kind of a natural limit of hundred, hundred ten. And when you reach that, even if you don't, till actually till hundred, or at the moment, till these eighty years or whatever, people normally die of something. They don't die of exhaustion, they die of cancer, whatever. So let's assume we can eliminate all of that. Yeah. So then there is one theory to be tested. Yeah. Do we die of sort of exhaustion, like a car which just doesn't run anymore without having one single thing?

• 32:30Speaker 02

  If that's the case, okay, at least we gain thirty more years. By the way, I think that's my view on everything in life. Why not try? Like, I'm an uber optimist. And if, if people love at me or love about me in fifty years and say, okay, there was this dreamer who thought we can add hundreds of years, and he added with his work ten years. I'm like, well, it's fucking amazing. I added ten years to, uh, to humanity's lifespan. Like, so let's gradually work on that. So then the second big question is, do we stay, um, a body-based species? Or can we someone change that?

• 33:04Anthony Pompliano?

  What does that mean?

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Well, there is one idea. So there's two ideas how you can look at longevity. The one is like, we're gonna repair the body we have. Yeah. Or even prevent it someone from aging, because we completely control, yeah, um, with, um, uh, whatever, CRISPR. I mean, we have so many new intervention mechanism in, in sort of life. Yeah. That, that there is the possibility that we kind of control our body and our mind in a way, or control, like, keep it functioning, that we're gonna be a body-based species. Yeah. And are happy with it, because we can repair the body all the time, replace stuff, whatever. And by the way, so then you have, then you have the other extreme view.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Can we someone get rid of our body? Just take what is actually defining what is, what is pomp, what is Christian, like, our mind, yeah, whatever that then means, and our soul, yeah, and upload that into, uh, a computer or any other structure. So get rid actually of the body, which is the part which is aging and, and decaying. Yeah. And then there is the, the, the opportunity, the, the possibility in between, which is, I think, where it's going. Yeah. That you sort of merge with technology, which, by the way, we do already now. If you have a, what's the English term? If you have a pacemaker, yeah, you are a mini cyborg. Yeah, we're just very used to a pacemaker. Yeah, uh, you have other.

• 34:29Anthony Pompliano?

  People have replacements. Been hips.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Exactly. So, so just think that 50 years ahead, maybe we just replace whole body parts with technology, but still stay kind of in this world. But my, again, I'm, I don't, I don't know it. Yeah, I'm betting on a lot of different things. So both on sort of rejuvenating our body. Why? Because I think we need more time. Do I think we're gonna have sort of the opportunity or ability to really take our consciousness, or however you wanna call it, and put it in a computer in 20 years? No. So, but again, what I'm looking for is optionality, because in the next 100 years, a lot of things, crazy things, which we can't even imagine. Because by the way, one of the trickiest thing is, in the moment we merge with machines or we upload ourselves,

• 35:14Speaker 02

  every prediction way or every hunch fails, because then we lose, but it sounds negative. It looks like we change, I wanna say neutral, from being what we define now is, if I make assumptions about what you want, what you're doing, I do it because I know that you're human and that you have a certain, humans are different, but overall, we have a certain way of feeling, thinking, looking at things, that might completely change if we do certain interventions. And then sort of, all, all the opportunities are, are on the table anyway.

• 35:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so there's, there's a split in the conversation, right? Because we can go to like the cyborg, uh, brain-computer interfaces, all that. Leave that to the side for a second.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  But we should talk about it, because I can give you examples, which you believe is sci-fi, which is already happening today.

• 36:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, let's go. Well, I bet you I believe it, that it's real, but go ahead.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  So, no, so one of my favorite portfolio companies I have is BlackRock Neurotech. It's finally called like the asset manager, but like, they're around since a long time. So, so BlackRock Neurotech, yeah, if somebody wants to look it up, because they have.

• 36:17Anthony Pompliano?

  What do they do?

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Uh, so, brain-computer interface. So they have crazy videos online, because, yeah, they are actually, they're years ahead of what any other wannabe brain-computer interface company wants to do, because they are the only ones who have. People who have their brain-computer interface. So they have an FDA-approved, already in-human. Yeah, and I think I don't wanna say the wrong moment. It's round about thirty people, three zero, yeah? Who have, so practically, everything except, every human except one in the world who has a brain-computer interface has it from BlackRock Neurotech. So at the moment, they just allow to give it to people who are completely paralyzed or have any other of severe disability. Okay.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  So for example, one patient has ALS. And ALS, I don't even know, like, it's practically locking you into your body and somewhere you lose every motorical ability, including speaking. So, but they are completely there. They are completely sane mind, which I think is horrible, like you're frozen in your body. So, and, and BlackRock gave one ALS patient their, uh, their, really their chip into the brain, and this guy can think of words and the computer is speaking for him. Yeah, which is, by the way, kind of telepathy. And now, think about it, and I'm very careful because I know it's, this is actually one of the things which is interestingly scaring a lot of people. I think it's awesome.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Like, we could obviously give it a second person, and at the moment, it's like, brain of the patient to the computer, and the computer speaks it out, but the bread, the computer could also send sort of the words to the other person. Yes, yeah, yeah. And the feeling of the, the BlackRock guys is this is maybe five years away that we can do that. Question is, do we as a society want to do that? But this is what I mean with changing a little bit what we are. So is speech and us speaking to each other, is it actually what makes us human? Or is it something which is actually completely archaic? Yeah, and actually rather hindering us? So if I think about it philosophically, I think the need of speaking is burdening us

• 38:28Speaker 02

  because, A, we already have a lot of languages in the world, and I don't speak all of them. Yeah? Then, as we know, if you're married, like, there is a lot of communication things which can go wrong, even if you speak the same language. Yeah? Or if you, if you talk to a child and you see like, you try to explain this to Three year old something and you see he already shut down. Yeah, um, think about it, you could send now a whole concept or a whole vision or a picture or whatever you wanna send that would make actually us, I think, better humans because we could leave behind a lot of the misunderstanding yeah, we have as humanity and and actually um transmit more complex sort of thoughts than language can do.

• 39:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Is there a world where we live to like one hundred and ten and no one talks to each other?

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Well, you, you, that's the point, you would talk to each other, you're already phrasing it negatively. You just wouldn't do it with your mouth, you would think and send your thoughts. Yeah, and you still would communicate. Yeah, you wouldn't need, yeah, but we're gonna go there like, and BlackRock is, there's this other guy. By the way, he did an NFT, which was so cool because like there, I, I think this is one of the bravest and coolest fighter, uh, fighters, his name is Nathan Copeland, he had an accident, he's completely um, paralyzed from here on. He got the BlackRock chip inside and he can move an electronic arm. Yeah, with his thoughts and you might think now it's just an arm, but for that guy, that is

• 39:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Huge deal.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Huge deal. And he actually has drawn a picture with his mind. It was the very first time in history, obviously, that somebody drew a picture with his mind, which then was actually auctioned off to support his sort of um, his work, but also his living. Yeah, um, as an NFT, but so, so, and if I, if I project that ten years, again, this is brain computer interface is one of the things where I'm like, people think it's sci fi, it's already here. The big question will just be, do we want it as society just for very disabled people? Which I think is a no brainer, obviously, you want to give people who can't walk the ability to walk, you want da, da, da. Or um, do we want to give it somewhere to healthy people?

• 40:41Speaker 02

  To really change the way we interact with machines and with each other.

• 40:46Anthony Pompliano?

  There's a clear pattern here, right? So psychedelics medicinal use, cannabis medicinal use, right? For something like this, the brain computer interface medicinal or kind of health related use cases, right? And you kind of, that's where you start and then it's just what does society want in terms of kind of past that health related piece.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  I think, by the way, to one time, because like What we all know, I think with every gamer and crypto person loves it, Ready Player One, yeah. This is like, from my point of view, 10 years, not more away. In 10 years, if you want it, and if we wanted as society, I always have to say that, if the regulator allows it, you will be able, you don't need glasses, you don't need a suit, you're gonna get an implant. Because, again, what is making you think that you sit here and talk to me? Yeah, it's all your senses. You're sitting on a chair, so you feel it. Yeah, you're talking to me, or you hear me talking, you see me. Yeah, so it's all your sensoric input. But all of that, guaranteed, because we're already doing it, yeah, of BlackRock, we can simulate with a chip in your brain.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  So in 10 years, you might lie at home in some cryo chamber. Yeah, I might lie at home, but we decided that it's cooler to meet in Miami in a studio, and we project ourselves into here and create the anti-illusion for ourselves of what it means if I touch the table, whatever. Yeah, and that would also give us the opportunity to go in multiple other worlds, because I could create the Ready Player One world.

• 42:13Anthony Pompliano?

  I was recently watching an interview with Jason Oppenheimer, you know, the guy from Selling Sunset, the Netflix special. And somebody asked him about, you know, basically what happens to commercial real estate, like all those office buildings, all this stuff. And one of the things that he said that I'd never thought of before, but I found interesting, was he was like, "Look, a lot of those buildings could be turned into residential, which I think is okay if people get that far." He goes, "But they're not built to be residential, so you could literally have kind of like a more of a smaller apartment building." He goes, "But ultimately, if you have an interior apartment, where there are no windows or anything today," he's like, "What is the difference between you actually looking out the real window

• 42:55Anthony Pompliano?

  and seeing sunlight versus if you have a screen that is projecting a window that looks realistic, that has natural sunlight coming through?" He's like, "In some way, the artificial control of it may be just as good, if not better, than the ability to rely on what is the actual weather outside." You can almost to some degree like trick your sensory system.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Totally, yeah.

• 43:20Anthony Pompliano?

  And you're doing it with a screen and it has the same impact as like sunlight does from like your mood or whatever. Now, there's an alternative argument, right? They're like, it's not real sunlight and all that type of stuff, but I found that like fascinating. Would you guys implant the chip? If if it was used for like non-medical purposes? Yeah, I mean, it depends what the benefits are, I think, like on a total level. If you can live longer, if you can communicate with people, if you can go to different areas, then maybe I'll let a couple of people test.

• 43:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Not the first one. Yeah, not the first one. Would you?

• 43:55Speaker 03

  I'd have to think about it.

• 43:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And what? The risk is what you would think about or the benefits?

• 44:00Speaker 03

  The risk. The benefits are pretty clear, I think, right? It's the ability to not put your body in harm because your body's probably the biggest limiting factor. Obviously, brain deteriorates as well over time with Alzheimer's and all the other stuff. But your body's probably your most limiting factor with the longevity piece and that could save you.

• 44:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. All right. Here's so let's say that that is the longevity slash improvement equality of life from a technologist's perspective. Technologists are going to keep working on technology. For you as an individual, I know you do a whole bunch of different stuff. There's things that are just like risk management. So maybe you can talk about not driving on the autobahn as much as possible as one thing. And then we can talk maybe about like your diet and kind of any supplementation or anything you do from like a protocol standpoint.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  No, and many people might. It's a funny example, but I really, although I'm German, I don't go on a German autobahn. We had actually the thing on Christmas because sort of I saw my parents in Germany, but then we were going together to Austria. Yeah. And my father, who is, if he's watching, he's very healthy, he's 70 and he would kill me for that. But I always say, look, I don't want to go on a German autobahn anyway, but especially not with a 70 year old driver. Yeah. So so my parents were driving, because they love driving, yeah, to Austria with their car and I was literally driving in parallel to Austria, to our place for Christmas, with the train. Yeah. So I'm not. So if I, meaning sometimes I have to, like if I have to go to an airport for a bit,

• 45:30Speaker 02

  but I really, I guess, if you believe, and I really believe what I'm saying, like, that we have the opportunity to live very long, yeah, any form of accident is completely idiotic. Yeah, again, the, the value of my next 20 years is incredibly more higher than it was for the same person 100 years ago, because, yeah, there was just 20 years. If I do a mistake in the next 20 years, I may be giving up hundreds of years. And by the way, I'm so excited, I always can say that, like, about where the world is going. And now we, so many people turn pessimistic and we always, because the media is always focusing on the negative stuff. But like, everything I see in our portfolio beyond that is, is fucking cool stuff. Yeah.

• 46:15Anthony Pompliano?

  And by the way, he won't go on the autobahn because car accidents are one of the number

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 46:19Anthony Pompliano?

  statistically, yeah. My question would be like, where does that risk tolerance, like where is the barrier on that, right?

• 46:24Speaker 02

  I'm always reassessing it. That's because like, you could obviously say if I stay at home and do nothing, yeah, that would be the best because you can have a plane accident. So I do think, because I love life, yeah, it's not that I sort of, I'm not afraid of that stuff, but I, I just want to enjoy life and all the innovation which is coming, yeah, and in partly which I'm helping building, yeah, I want to enjoy it and want to be there when the real stuff comes. So, so I'm just always assessing, would I do a bungee jumping? No. Like, would I go on an autobahn? No. Yeah.

• 46:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Roller coasters?

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Yes, because I really like it and my gosh, I would love it, but like, but not the super crazy ones. And I'm thinking about it all the time, every single time in Disneyland, I love Disneyland. Yeah. I'm like, should I really do that? Is it worth it? Yeah. And I think it's healthy to, to, to always think about sort of, again, I think as an investor, you're trained to think in risk reward or in upside downside. Yeah, whatever. So on the, on the medical side, meaning what I was thinking when I came here, because I knew you want to ask it, I promise, because I say that, I said that in your last, in our last interview as well, but like, I have this 11 pager, which I did together with James Pia from Cambrian. I actually Need to go over it because it is obviously kind of medical advice, which I'm not allowed to give.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  So I need to phrase it in a way with a lawyer, but I promised to put it online. Yeah, over the next.

• 47:44Anthony Pompliano?

  And this is what you do on a day.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Exactly. So this is all the stuff because I'm doing like.

• 47:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Let me ask high level, just high level, what people probably want to know. What, when you think of what you eat from a diet standpoint, what do you follow a specific type of diet?

• 47:56Speaker 02

  So I would say, by the way, so follow me on Twitter because I need Twitter followers like.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  It's a good thing. You need to tease people though. But then I know I'm promised I'm gonna, because I always get these questions, I'm gonna put it online. In the next two, three weeks. Yeah. So what is the main things? The main thing is actually what you said, like intermittent fasting. So I haven't eaten anything today. So I'm doing eighteen hours with zero calorie intake, just water and, and black coffee, but no, no calorie intake. Yeah. Which is, by the way, you, any form of fasting is great. That's just the fasting which works for me. It's sort of my daily rhythm, like other people do five day fasting and then eat normally. So I do like sixteen to eighteen hours, no calorie intake. Why? You said it's counterintuitive, but like your body goes into like a laundry mode, you could say it that way. Like, sorry, if it's flushing out senescent cells, it's really rejuvenating.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  And it starts around about hour fourteen that you go into that sort of state. So, so the longer actually you can be, if you could be, sometimes I make a full day. Yeah. Without food or without anything, that is actually ideal. I try to not eat a lot of carbs. Maybe the healthy ones, lentils, whatever, but not the bad ones, carbs, pasta, blah, blah, blah. I actually take metformin. That is, I think, sort of from the medical side, the most we know potent.

• 49:17Anthony Pompliano?

  You said metformin?

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Metformin, yeah, which is actually a diabetes drug, but which seems to mimic fasting. And then there is a, a newer version, which actually is interesting because I always have in psychedelics with some people, that discussion about patterns. Like, is it allowed to pattern psychedelic substances because it's God's given things? And I, I think patterns are inherently important for drug development, which we unfortunately see with metformin. Because metformin is a diabetes drug which is out of pattern. It's super cheap. So there are great studies, but not FDA studies, so more like looking at people who take metformin, how they how they age, whatever, which suggests that metformin is incredibly

• 49:58Speaker 02

  healthy, but no pharma company is putting the money up to prove it in an FDA like framework, because they can't make money with it. So it would be great if metformin is in patent again, because people would then hopefully prove it. Somebody did it, Novo Nordisk has a drug called Ozempic, which is also a diabetes drug. So it shows, by the way, that it seems to be that.

• 50:19Anthony Pompliano?

  So you take metformin, what does it do?

• 50:22Speaker 02

  So it's kind of, in a non-medical way, it's mimicking fasting.

• 50:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's controlling your insulin spike. And that whole world of taking food, especially sugar or sugar like foods, yeah, which makes your insulin spike, whatever, that seems to, over the course of our life, be one of the drivers for inflammation, cardiovascular diseases, whatever. So metformin, sort of in a more complex way than I can describe it now, but it's sort of, sort of.

• 50:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Bringing that back.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Bringing that back. And the same is Ozempic, but what I was saying is like, because it's in patent, they've proven it. So Ozempic now has been FDA approved, not just for diabetes, but for weight loss, yeah, and for prevention of cardiovascular diseases.

• 51:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. Do you take anything else, like NAD or any of those?

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Yes, everything. I take 50 pills a day.

• 51:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 51:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Hey, we really got to do like three. So metformin.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  So metformin, what are the essentials? Metformin, I take NAD plus.

• 51:21Anthony Pompliano?

  What does NAD plus do for folks? Like, what is the, if somebody goes online and reads about it, like, what is the general idea? It's very longevity focused. David Sinclair, all these guys are obsessed with it. How do you think about adding that?

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Well, so there, because I don't want to pretend I'm a specialist for something when I'm not, like, this is what I'm taking because David explained it to me, yeah, what it's doing. So he has a great podcast, and I think he's also has something online, why, what the actual mechanism of action is of NAD plus, or the precursor is called NMN. And yeah, because it's 100% sure, I think, how. How the body, that's by the way, one of the problems of all these stuff is like, because it's a lot of that stuff is in a positive meaning anecdotal, yeah, or at least not massive FDA like trials, again, often because of missing patterns. Yeah, we don't know, for example, exactly how much, so that's all a little bit like, yeah.

• 52:16Anthony Pompliano?

  The key piece, I just pulled up very quickly. This is a paper in Science that basically talks about NAD plus and aging metabolism and neurodegeneration. Right. And basically, the whole idea is a lot of aging comes down to metabolism, the destruction of your cells, the faster deterioration of them, etc. And so each one of these things, I'm assuming that you're taking, has some impact. Some of them are directly, some of them are indirectly, whatever, insulin. It all plays into this complex system that is the human body. But that's essentially what you're trying to get at is to slow down the deterioration of the cells or even potentially building them back up and kind of the, the idea that you can reverse your biological age versus your chronological age is, you know, appears to be possible, according to some of these guys.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's this great study, you can do it with human growth hormones. Like, there was these, I think it was Stanford study, if 70 year old man take human growth hormones, metformin and DHEA. And then the question is, by the way, we're coming to an interesting point. What is actually, how do we measure sort of age, like, sort of not your age in birth years, but in like, like how you appear or how you feel, yeah, which we don't have yet. And Stanford was the first one, I think it was Stanford, who developed like a scale. Well, like, okay, if we give these, whatever, 20 men, like human growth hormones, metformin and DHEA, how can we measure if they really rejuvenate? And they came up with a number of biomarkers, whatever, which is, by the way,

• 53:44Speaker 02

  the, one of the tasks we have to do, and Cambrian, James just started a big sort of think tank where we sort of align all. It's called longevity biotech companies. Because at the moment, if you go to the FDA and say, hey, I found the wonder pill, which makes us live 10 years longer, it's really hard to get an approval or actually even the study approved, because you're not solving for a real problem, because aging and dying is not classified as a disease. So what all these aging companies do at the moment, and this is what Cambrian, for example, and I have another one in Europe, Rejuveron, these are my two aging plays, what they're

• 54:27Speaker 02

  doing is like you have to find drugs which have an imminent immediate effect on a certain disease. And then you can approve it for that disease, but you have a second layer effect that you know, okay, once I have approved it for this single disease, everybody will take it because it's so beneficial. Yeah, I give you one example, we're working on one drug, actually pretty advanced. So the shortening of the telomeres is one other in these nine hallmarks of aging.

• 54:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Have you guys, just real quick, have you guys read the telomere effect?

• 55:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 55:03Anthony Pompliano?

  You should read it. Basically, for those, in the most elementary example, you know your shoelace, you know, it has on the end of the shoelace, the plastic caps. Basically, every single one of your DNA strands has these like essentially caps to them. And as they get shorter, the shorter your telomeres get, basically the more aging you have, the shorter your lifespan will be. And so there's a bunch of things that you can do, like immense stress, bad eating, whatever, to accelerate the shortening of the caps. But also the belief is that maybe you can slow down the shortening, or potentially, could you reverse it? Could you actually extend back the caps so that you're essentially reversing kind of the negative effect on telomeres?

• 55:40Speaker 02

  And it's amazing, like perfectly explained.

• 55:43Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't just know about Bitcoin, but I just like talking about Bitcoin.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Fascinating. So and you have a childhood disease, and everybody of us has seen that, because once in a while, the media is like, oh, look at this child, it's like, looks like an 80 year old, but it's 19. So there is a disease where the telomeres shrink and shorten in rapid speed. And then unfortunately, children who have this disease look with 15. Like an eighty year old, which is showing that so. So we have a drug in phase one, but so a little bit advanced, but not years away, but like sort of in the middle of drug development. Yeah, which we think has the potential to cure that childhood disease. So that is a real disease. I can go to the FDA. It's actually even an orphan disease, so I can get very quick approval because these children are dying when they are twenty.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, but obviously if I get a drug approved, which stops shortening of the telomeres for these children, very clear use case, then I would take it as well if it stops the shortening of my telomeres. Yeah. So and this is at the moment how all longevity companies do these workarounds. So they find a molecule or a compound and they have an assumption, but they always have to prove it in a concrete disease. And I hope, and this is what we're lobbying for, that in some years, the sooner the better. Especially the FDA as the sort of number one regulator in the world is saying, well, let's define biomarkers which define aging.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  And if you can change these biomarkers positively, so if you sort of can slow down and provenly slow down aging, we do approve that because we agree with you. This is what it is. Aging is a disease and we have to sort of solve it.

• 57:25Anthony Pompliano?

  So a lot of people may not know this. I invested in a company. It is called Nucleus Genomics and what I wanted to pull up was exactly what they, how they describe what they do, so I didn't screw it up. But basically, at the moment, they don't do any of the testing or kind of lab collection. So you, if you went to twenty three and me or any of these other ones and already got the DNA collected. Usually those folks are doing it for ancestral purposes, right? There's kind of a societal, hey, I want to know where I came from, who I'm related to, all that stuff. What these guys do is you can upload your genetic information that you obtained through a different company. So you download your results, you go, you upload it into here. And what they are trying to do is they're using proprietary algorithms to calculate polygenic risk scores.

• 58:11Anthony Pompliano?

  So measuring disease risk based on the analysis of the genetic variants. And then basically displayed them in a simple way. So they say, hey, you have a higher propensity for X or a higher propensity for Y. Eventually, the idea is that they'll push further and further into areas of genetic analysis that today may not be as kosher or well understood, etc. So for example, and this is not necessarily what they're going to do, but let's just go to the absolute extreme. If you go to the genetic analysis kind of industry, I think a lot of people would say the most taboo thing to analyze genetics for is basically, do you have a genetic propensity to be intelligent or stupid? Right? A lot of people don't want to go there. They don't want to talk about that. They don't want to understand all that type of stuff. And so when

• 58:54Anthony Pompliano?

  you look at somebody like a nucleus genomics, they seem to be going into what I think is like the next step past 23andMe or Ancestry or whatever. So hey, not just ancestral purposes, but let's actually start to score your risk for certain types of diseases. Is there a world where literally 20, 40, 50 years from now, every single human is getting scored genetically by some company on, are you smart? Are you not? Do you have a propensity for a certain type of job? Like, how far does this go before you think society kind of taps out and they're like, hey, hey, hey, like, even if we have the information, we actually don't want to use it?

• 59:30Speaker 02

  It's a good question. I mean, first of all, like, it's gonna happen, I think, way quicker. We don't need to talk about 50 years. Yeah. And by the way, in a positive way, it should happen quickly because it would help us understand and maybe do things better. What I really, I mean, the two things which bother me in this world is like, the one is this sort of overly political correctness. Yeah. Because by talking, I think we need to talk about even controversial things in a polite, human way. Yeah. Because this is how we come to new ideas, new conclusions, and actually problems. So there is one, one simple thing is like, if you look, and I don't want to even name now groups, because then you get a shitstorm. But if you look in certain

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  areas of the world, in certain whatever, you see differences in, for example, IQ. So now people don't want to go there because it's politically very incollect. But one of the main factors is for or one of the important factors for IQ is childhood nutrition. So maybe by not looking at it and saying, okay, what is correlations between A and B, we avoiding coming up and saying, oh, this sort of country, whatever, has a worse nutrition than others for babies. And it's so simple to solve that. It's a little bit like, yeah, I try to stay away from, you know what I because even I'm opening, I don't want to get in this discussion, but like we should and we should do it in a

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  in a polite and human and friendly way with the aim to solve diseases, to solve problems, to give people a better life, better opportunities, whatever. So I don't think it's it's sort of bad at all if applied. The problem is that, again, in this politically correct world, overly politically correct world, people always assume the worst. They're like, oh, this is like they're doing it for negative stuff. Yeah. Which is, I think, very sad.

• 1:01:24Anthony Pompliano?

  How, well, first of all, is there anything else that you take other than NAD plus, metformin, like anything that would mostly be like, okay, like this is a piece of that 50 or so supplement regiment that that you do that's noteworthy?

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  So I think vitamin D is essential.

• 1:01:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Vitamin D?

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  Which is also, by the way, has shown a big correlation between severity of COVID and and your vitamin D status.

• 1:01:51Anthony Pompliano?

  I wasn't going to say that, but yes, that is. Yeah, I heard that.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  No, that is so, that is so obviously true that it's not even controversial. Like, there is, there is enough studies which show.

• 1:02:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Christian, this is the internet. Nothing is true and everything is true all at the same time.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  Especially COVID, especially in the US. Thanks, COVID. I don't give a fuck.

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  But no, but vitamin D and anyway, that is the COVID thing. I have to say, because like.

• 1:02:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, here we go.

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  But there are these correlations which are obvious, yeah?

• 1:02:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  And nobody's speaking about it. It would be so easy if people would say, look, get your vitamin D supplement, yeah?

• 1:02:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Before we wear masks, whatever. And I don't actually even think wearing masks is not bad. Like, I'm not, I'm actually, actually pro a lot of the things. I'm triple vaccinated because obviously I'm in science, yeah? And I believe in these vaccines, yeah? Yeah, you can still get it, yeah? But you get it way milder, yeah? People make everything political. And that is, by the way, that is.

• 1:02:47Anthony Pompliano?

  You're saying, do there's common sense stuff first? And then do the scientific stuff?

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, and do both together. It's not mutually exclusive.

• 1:02:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  To do common sense and scientific stuff.

• 1:02:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Did you see the El Salvador ad where they have a whole ad campaign?

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  Obesity, right?

• 1:03:01Anthony Pompliano?

  They, yeah, they basically said, well, they claim that it's their COVID campaign, but they basically have people like running through a park and they say like, basically go outside, eat healthy, exercise and like get in better shape is, is one of the.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  It's one of, exactly, like, by the way, I, I mean.

• 1:03:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, why haven't other countries?

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Being obese is bad, like, we shouldn't do body positivity. We should be friendly to people and supportive who might have, for example, medical reasons, whatever. But we can't say, meaning there is no scientific, anything which hints to that being overweight is good for you, it's just bad, like.

• 1:03:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Now we're gonna start talking about things that I'm very interested in.

• 1:03:40Anthony Pompliano?

  What is the best way to say this so that people don't get?

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  We're all thinking like, what is the soundbite they could say?

• 1:03:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, listen, by the way, i- i- if you disagree with what I say, that's fine. You have the right to do that, just don't be an asshole about it, right?

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  I'm not an asshole.

• 1:03:51Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, not you, the, the audience.

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:03:53Anthony Pompliano?

  So, so, uh, there are societal norms that have evolved over time, right? And those societal norms, I think, make us feel comfortable. They make us feel, uh, welcoming. They make us feel, uh, better about a whole bunch of different stuff. But in many cases, they're in direct contradiction to science. And I'm not talking about science, like, uh, follow the science that has become like a political statement or a, uh, virtue signal thing. I'm talking about like legitimate science where people do like real science and there's a, it's true, it's not true, the experiment worked, it didn't work, right? How do you think about the balance between the societal, like, positioning of various

• 1:04:38Anthony Pompliano?

  topics versus like, no, the sci- like, the true science? So, let's take obesity as an example, right? I think it's a pretty non-controversial one.

• 1:04:47Anthony Pompliano?

  There's not a very strong argument for being fat from a health and science standpoint.

• 1:04:55Anthony Pompliano?

  I understand why we have a societal evolution on the topic, but how do you balance those two things? Like, is there a balance? Or like, should society just look at the science and say, hey, this is not good. We should actually do everything we can to get people healthier? Or should the scientists be like, look, we understand the science, but like, there's also this societal layer on top of it. And so we should be more understanding of how society ends up being. Like, how do you think about those two things? Because one is very much like, you know, I keep coming back to science, but like, it's like mathematical. It's provable. It's either like, it's true or it's not.

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  Well, yes, by the way, we have to add, because that's also important, we follow the science, like, science is never absolute. So we have, we had beliefs like 20 years ago on nutrition, and then we disproven them. So science, there is not like, there is no person nor an institution in the world who has science always right, and it's never evolving. So it's actually the opposite. The whole idea of science is to constantly challenging your own beliefs and science itself. And I mean, obviously, we have some like gravity. We don't challenge gravity. Yeah, but like, you know what I mean? Like, but in detail, like, I think it's important, a scientific mind is a questioning mind. Yeah. But then we have to come to conclusions and say,

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  look, this is, at the moment, the best thing we know, and we should be able to agree on it. So that's the science part. Yeah. So, and then I think what people mix up is like, shall we be mean? Like, I think, for example, that whole discussion with obesity, whatever, it's like, it's an imperative, obviously, that we're not mean to sort of obese people, or that they're not bullied, or that they're not in any way, like, sort of, but we mix that up, that we shouldn't talk about still obesity having very detrimental health effects. Yeah. And I think it's actually the pinnacle, or the extreme version of being mean not to talk about it, because I'm giving

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  people the wrong sense of security, and then they're gonna have a heart attack, or they're gonna get cancer. Yeah. Or they're gonna get a severe of COVID. And they don't even know it, because a lot of people really taking in nutrition don't know a lot about it. So, so I think where, sort of, I think this political correctness, if we call it like that, is like, was a counter reaction to sort of the hostility.

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, social media has developed. So, and that is actually the good part of it. So as much as I'm against, or I think it's like not overly good. Like what I, what I like is that sort of the whole woke movement in the early days had the idea of protecting people from harm, from whatever. So, and we, we, from my point of view, we would need to, we need to find a balance where we say, look, we can be, or we have to be, because we're all humans, respectful with each other, but not holding back to sort of talk about again, science. And then I think at the end, everybody should make their own decision,

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  but they should know what their decision is based on. If that makes sense, that is sort of my view between society and, and science.

• 1:08:06Anthony Pompliano?

  I think that similar to a large portion, I don't know if it's majority, but a large portion of, let's say, the American population don't understand how money works. They don't understand what the negative side effects of savings are in high inflationary environments. Like all these nuances that the more sophisticated of an investor somebody is, the better they understand this stuff. And the more that they're like, let me invest, get me into assets, get me out of just holding cash, et cetera. The same can be said about a lot of, especially personal health. So this whole idea of like quantifiable self, where now we're measuring some of this stuff. And I actually think one of the best things that occurred is the Apple Watch. So I wear one, guess what? I don't track how many steps I take, like in terms of I gotta hit a certain number.

• 1:08:50Anthony Pompliano?

  But like they got that stupid little ring. And if it's behind, you know, at a certain point in the day, I'm like, man, I haven't really moved around a lot today. And it's just the, the reminder of like move, right? It is like at the most basic level, like that pushes me to do stuff. And I think as we get more and more quantifiable self type things available to people and educate them, people are going to start to learn like, hey, I shouldn't eat that thing. I should actually do this instead of, you know, take the bus, the six blocks. Maybe I should just walk like you, you get into this whole idea of.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  Data is power.

• 1:09:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, yeah, you just educate people and like it's. Fortunately, is similar to personal finance. If you grew up in a house where your grandparents didn't teach your parents anything and your parents didn't teach you anything, it's not your fault. It's not their fault either. It's just like, nobody in that lineage of family knew to pass on the knowledge. And so you can kind of break the cycle by going and get educated. You can go on the internet. You can read a book. You can find a mentor. Like, there's a bunch of stuff that can happen to help break out. And then it's your responsibility to kind of teach your kids and, you know, kind of change the trajectory of your family lineage. But health is the same thing, right? If you really think about a lot of families, like, hey, why do, when we grew up, we ate pasta every single Sunday night.

• 1:10:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? Why do we do that? Because guess what? My dad wanted to do it. Why my dad wanted to do it? Because his family did it. Because why they do it? Probably because their family, you know what I mean? Like, it's just the food that you consume, the, the traditions, the rituals, like all this stuff gets passed down. So I do have hope that we're going to break through that stuff. Now, with all that said, psychedelics ain't exactly something that's been passed down from family lineage.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  Should have, but like, didn't.

• 1:10:28Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So, a lot of people are interested in the psychedelic conversation. Help me understand first, what are you guys doing in psychedelics? Let's start there. And then we'll get into some of the, the benefits of this stuff, etc. But like, what do you guys do in psychedelics?

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so my company, Atai, which is stock market listed,

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  is working on bringing back, I have to say, because some of these substances used to be medication and some of them are newly used as therapeutics, but is, is working on making so-called psychedelics. And we have a whole range of it. And we also actually have in Atai, some non-psychedelic mental health drugs. But let's stay with psychedelics, bringing them back as a treatment option for various mental health issues, which is like depression, anxiety, addiction, post-traumatic stress disorder, obesity, or any form of body dysmorphia. The opposite is anorexia and stuff like that. So, really like as a sort of, my, my aim is with Atai to build, and we're on a very good way, the leading company for mental health,

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  because that is actually the real, from my point of view, problem of our. Our time, everything we discussed the last hour, what it was, yeah. Is on the one side amazing. So our world is changing with a a speed like we have never seen it before and people like us love it. But unfortunately, it seems to be extremely detrimental for our mental health. So. So if you look like already today, mental health is like the number one disease in terms of patients. So more than one billion people suffer from one or more uh mental health issues and that's actually just a two thousand nineteen number. So somewhere now the next month, the two thousand twenty mid twenty number will come out.

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. And obviously, COVID gonna. My guess is there are some hundred million more people who are suffering from mental health. Yeah, but ultimately, I actually believe we all gonna have somewhere in our life, mental health issues because the world we we're building unfortunately is very negative for our brain. So long story short, I think it's the the biggest problem of our time. Yeah, and I want to find solutions for it.

• 1:12:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Have you guys ever taken psychedelics? I've never done it either.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  We should in a country where it's legal.

• 1:12:46Anthony Pompliano?

  It is not.

• 1:12:47Speaker 03

  Which ones do you recommend?

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  So psychedelics, a very important disclaimer. So two things, A, in the Western world.

• 1:12:53Anthony Pompliano?

  John.

• 1:12:54Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, no, you can go into that. Yeah. So psychedelics are at the moment illegal in the Western world with very few exemptions.

• 1:13:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  But they are actually legal or not classified, so not illegal, just like nothing like in in big parts of South America, Caribbean, whatever. So there are places where you can do psychedelics practically legally, or at least not uh against the law. So the second disclaimer is that I'm and I'm I am very enthusiastic about it and I do

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  mainly actually so called magic mushrooms, yeah, once or twice a year in a country where it's legal. But I want to say it's extremely important, all these. Um, let's call it therapeutics and not drugs, like all these compounds or many of them have been actually used for thousands of years in spiritual religious traditions, but always in a very, very controlled way. So the sixties were the anomaly. So the sixties where Timo Seliri said, hey, throw it out of the window, whatever, out of the plane, let's all do it, is the anomaly. Like over 10,000 years, humans did it very, very controlled, controlled by shamans, priests. And if you look at all the

• 1:14:09Speaker 02

  spiritual traditions, normally they do it once or twice a year with a shaman together, like very guided, very focused. And this is what I want to recreate for the 21st century. So and the shamans of our time are the psychotherapists. So what Atai is doing, and that's super important, we don't want to make these compounds broadly legal like cannabis. So it's not the same. We see them as therapeutics. Yeah, they are enormously powerful, but they need to be taken under supervision with a guide together. Yeah. And in sort of, and there is more work to be done. It's actually not just sort of the trip itself. You have pre-work with the therapist, you have post-integration, all of that.

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  So we want to make them medically available as approved therapeutics, but just with a therapist. So not even prescription and you go home with it, but you go to your therapist, you will trip in the future, hopefully with your therapist. Yeah. And he helps you then also to understand what you've just done and why it's helping you. And it is ayahuasca, is that considered psychedelic? Yep. So ayahuasca, the active ingredient is DMT. Yep. Yeah. And this is also what Atai is doing. So on the psychedelic front, Atai has psilocybin, which is the active ingredient in magic mushrooms via our stake in a company called Compass Pathways, which is separately also- I've had him on the podcast before. Yeah, it's listed on the stock market as well. Then we have DMT at Atai, we have salvia, we have a new version of ketamine, which is extremely promising.

• 1:15:36Speaker 02

  And we're gonna add several more psychedelics. Ibogaine is super important. Yeah. Because ibogaine is actually one of my sort of favorites not to take it, but what it solves because ibogaine has the potential- To completely get people off any form of addiction, including opioid and heroin addiction, which is obviously here in America, especially a huge problem. And so we're developing Iobugan as addiction treatment. So that's the psychedelics. And then we actually have more than five non psychedelic mental health drugs as well. In total, 12 of them.

• 1:16:07Anthony Pompliano?

  So a mutual friend of ours, I don't want to say his name because I don't know if he'd be comfortable with it, told me that he went and he did ayahuasca and asked him what it was like. And he was like, basically, I was throwing up everywhere. I was shitting my pants like he's like, this is crazy. But then after the first, I don't know, six hours, 12 hours, whatever of like the pain, he was like, I felt amazing. It was like one of the best experiences of my life. I had this like huge spiritual like reckoning. And then he sort of started frankly to me at first, I was like, you sound like a crazy person. So he went through this whole thing. And so he piqued my interest mainly just because I was like, that was a pretty intense experience that he described to me. So I went and I started Googling around and I was like, what the hell is all this stuff?

• 1:16:53Anthony Pompliano?

  I found documentary on, I think it's on Netflix. And in it, actually in Florida, there is a guy who set up a church. And because he has a religious exemption, he is able to essentially give people, I think it's psilocybin or ayahuasca. I can't remember what one of them. And so people go to church and they basically go in his backyard of this building that he has. And they do the entire kind of ceremony and all this stuff. The most interesting part to me like, and by the way, like watching documentary, you're kind of like, hey, man, they interview one person like this is a life changing event. I have to come back here like this, you know, completely solve some huge existential crisis that this person was going through.

• 1:17:38Anthony Pompliano?

  And then like in another part of the episode, they like rush him to the hospital. Right? So like literally the extremes of responses to to this, but.

• 1:17:47Anthony Pompliano?

  The thing that I took away from it and what I heard you just say is there's a person who's guiding people through this entire experience. And that person, I think historically, the shaman or whatever, seems to be a person that like, I think a lot of people, especially in like South Central America, think of it almost as like a spiritual guide or whatever. I think what you're talking about is more so being like a true therapist, almost like a doctor. Is that kind of how you guys think about it? Like, how does that role of that person change when it becomes more for medicinal purposes versus the more spiritual, you know, I fly to somewhere in South America and do this?

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  So first of all, I think I know who's the mutual friend. And I think we can say it because he's so proud about it that he got a tattoo about it. Are we talking about the same one?

• 1:18:32Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm pretty sure that he said it on a podcast I did with him.

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  Mike, right. So Mike is very, and again, no, no. And again, a big shout out. So actually, Mike is sort of co-responsible for two amazing things in my life, for the anti-crypto journey. And then he was the first one when, so I called two people when I said I'm gonna make psychedelics medically available again. Actually, I talked to more people. And back then, by the way, now everybody is like, hey, there is a Netflix documentary, a Thai stock market listed. It's in the news literally every day. Yeah. Now it's sort of almost a conventional wisdom that psychedelics will have a role to play in the mental health crisis. But like when I had the original idea in 2017, literally 19% of people said,

• 1:19:17Speaker 02

  you're completely insane and it's not going to work out because they are illegal, they're going to stay illegal. And the two people who really sort of entrusted me first were Mike, who is the seed investor in a Thai and Peter Thiel. So a big shout out to both for-

• 1:19:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Does Peter do it too?

• 1:19:32Speaker 02

  Well, I would never comment on people who, generally, like, there's a little bit like a medical, medical stuff. But Mike, Mike actually went on a, on a journey later on when I sort of excitedly told him about he invested first and, and went on, on a journey then. He's so convinced me, he shows it to everybody. Like, so he definitely showed it on your podcast that he has a Jaguar or two. And, but he also understands the importance- And the problem mental health can can be or missing mental health, mental health problems can be for our society. So he's a great, great supporter. So to your question, it's very, very hard to almost separate a psychedelic experience or talk about it without using religious terms. So it isn't

• 1:20:16Speaker 02

  or spiritual, let's talk spiritual. So, and this is, by the way, a side note, and if you haven't had him on your podcast, you should. And there is one big news, I can't say it now because I promise not to, but like, so there is a guy called Brian Murorescu. I don't know if you've heard about him.

• 1:20:30Anthony Pompliano?

  No.

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  He wrote one of the bestselling books of the last two years in science. It's called The Immortality Key. But it's not about.

• 1:20:37Anthony Pompliano?

  I did, I did hear about this.

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's not about longevity. It's about, he has provenly shown how most religions and cults, but including Christianity, are actually based on psychedelic consumption. So because psychedelics give you that sort of, yeah, spirituality and you can, it's very hard to describe, but once you've done it, you completely, A, understand how many religions are based on it, but also you way better know, you read the Bible, you reread it and you're like, yeah, obviously Moses was tripping on D M T, by the way. So the, no, and the symbol and you loving, but like the symbol in, because we, we're reading religious texts without having the context. It comes actually back to what we had before.

• 1:21:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Is that like a widely accepted thing is that Moses was on D M T?

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Getting more accepted. And unfortunately, if I, I should, I could show it because like, sort of, by the way, and it's very interesting how we come like around full circle. It's about language. So we said before that practically when we talk to each other and using words, yeah, we're losing so much, yeah, already with people who live with us at the same time. Again, if you talk to your wife at home, I guess you have once in a while the feeling she doesn't really understand you. Yeah. But you're talking the same.

• 1:21:51Anthony Pompliano?

  She always understands.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  Okay. You are, but you know what I want to say. Yeah. She, but same age, same culture, da, da, da, da, da, same language. Yeah. So we're now reading texts of people 5,000 years ago and they might.

• 1:22:06Speaker 02

  Have used pictures and and things which we now take literally because we're like, oh, there is a burning bush. Yeah, but the burning bush in ancient Egypt was the symbol for wisdom being transmitted. Yeah, and there was a holy bush acacia, yeah, which contains D M T. So an ancient person in back then might have read Burning Bush and might have immediately understood positively. Yes, he was tripping on D M T. He did practically ayahuasca. Yeah, by the way, which does not diminish in any way that he actually that proves for me more. Because on my personal belief, I have my sort of science side where I can say, hey, we just had with Compass Passways phenomenal.

• 1:22:51Speaker 02

  Phase two B results for depression. So scientifically, I can say, look, we can tell you, yeah. Psychedelics have this enormous potential, da, da, da. But my personal belief is that they are sort of giving you access to something more. Call it God, call it the divine, call it your soul, whatever. Yeah, and so I actually saying that Moses was tripping on D M T while he spoke to God. Doesn't make it less credible. For me, it actually makes it more credible. Because like, oh, yeah, he had really a tool to access sort of divine wisdom, if you want to take it like that. So and Brian has written this amazing book about the immortality key. Where he has, again, coming back to science, he has hard scientific proof because he was teaming up with a thing.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Title in English is paleopharmacologists. So they were really going to ancient sites. And were looking in cups and whatever to find residual traces of what was in these cups. And by the way, another word we completely translate wrongly is the word wine. Yeah, when we read wine in the Bible, in ancient Greek texts, we always think. It's what we consume out of the supermarket. Yeah, but wine in the ancient world world was. Always spiked with something. There were hundreds of recipes and hundreds of different wines. There is the wine in ancient Egypt. By the way, you can make it yourself because it's a free seller of psychedelic. It's not classified. Um, there is a thing, it's called. Lily, it's a very weak psychedelic.

• 1:24:18Speaker 02

  But the ancient Egypt mixed wine with blue lily. Sorry, blue lotus, blue lily, I think it's the same in English, yeah, blue lotus. Yeah, and for twenty-four hours, and then it became a sex drug. Yeah, and then they had sort of their cultic orgies on this combination. But we read now, okay, they took wine, but it was, you know what I wanna say? So in the same way, when the early Christians used wine. Yeah, now we can say we found traces of psychedelics in the, in the cups of the early Christians. So we can actually provenly say that definitely, was it the sole driver of Christianity? We don't know, but like, was it part of Christianity? Definitely, yes.

• 1:24:59Speaker 02

  And then sadly, I'm very, very sort of interested in the origin of religion. And actually, I have a personal art collection, which has a lot of these artifacts, like for example, Demeter from the Illusory Mysteries whatsoever. But like sadly, if you look at every big organized religion, they all were started very spiritually or very like, yeah, it's very mystical. But unfortunately, if you wanna become an organization, you need to get rid of the traditions which made you grow in the first place. Because you don't want a Catholic church where every Sunday, people are taking psychedelics and are shouting, "I spoke to God and I have this idea now."

• 1:25:42Speaker 02

  So someone, and there is a very interesting document I found, is that in round about one thousand, the Pope was communicating with the German Emperor. By the way, it's coming back also to cannabis, yeah. And so back then, not just in wine, but also in beer, especially the monks were using mind-altering stuff, mainly cannabis and psychedelics, mushrooms. And this was not well received in Rome, because there was a mystic called Hildegard von Bingen. She's a famous, actually saint now, so they rehabilitated her later. Yeah, but there were a lot of mystics in Germany around the time who...

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  Went against the authority of the church because they were like, uh, this can't be true that the Catholic Church in Rome is whatever doing bad stuff. I spoke to God and this is the way we should lead our life. Yeah. Um, so the Pope communicated with the German Emperor and said, we have to, you have to forbid your people spiking beer with bad stuff. And they came up with the first viral marketing idea. They called it the German purity law. Yeah. So, so the Emperor said of, hey, I forbid that. And in return, he got some whatever additional thiefdom. Yeah.

• 1:27:03Anthony Pompliano?

  So when you think about this, um, what do you think? Let's just say five years from now, right? We've talked about spirituality, psychedelics, longevity, Bitcoin, etc. Is everyone just going to be taking psychedelics, injecting themselves and consuming a bunch of supplements from a longevity standpoint, holding Bitcoin and like the libertarian dream comes true? Or what do you think happens in, let's just say like, you know, kind of immediate, like five years. Like, where do you think this stuff all evolves to?

• 1:27:37Speaker 02

  Well, I think, let's say with psychedelics, I think in five years, a Thai will have a range of approved medical drugs. Again, it's not that you take it at a party, whatever, but it, unfortunately, I believe, as I said before, that the mental health crisis will become way bigger. So people will, I think, maybe even preventatively go to their therapist once a year and say, hey, I wanna do my psychedelic trip with you. This is why I'm also so convinced about sort of the economic potential of a Thai, because we have the solution. And unfortunately, sort of the market or the, yeah, the, the problem is so big, yeah, that I deeply, deeply believe a Thai can become like a 10, uh, 20 billion dollar business.

• 1:28:21Speaker 02

  And, but it's not going to be like you do it every week or whatever. And it's, it's on a psychedelic side. It's, it's a good question on society. What, what I think what we need more, and I said it before, we need more like, um, A polite but sort of intellectually stimulating dialogue. Where does society wanna go? And that's really an open question, which I can't answer because I'm one out of seven billion. Yeah, I think we have too little, we have too many people on Twitter who shouting at each other. And we have too little philosophers and ethics people, but who really think things through. Yeah, and I think we have to have this discourse, or this discourse like this, this discussion.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, in, in society about what do we wanna become? Because I think for the first time in history, we can literally reinvent what it means to be human. So we, from my point of view, we reinventing the world around us. But even more over the next 10, 20 years, we reinventing ourselves. And we need to have a proper discussion. What do we want? Yeah, so, and I have one opinion. I wanna live really long. I wanna upgrade myself. Yeah, I would take brain-computer interface stuff in a heartbeat if it's safe. Yeah, I'm the guy who's like, bring it on, like, because I wanna see, by the way.

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  Because also, I was trying to say that politely, I can always pull the trigger. If, if, if I'm bored in 200 years, what I said before, like, or if I do something and I'm like, fuck, this was not good. Yeah, well, I'm always up for like, so, but maybe other people say, no, we shouldn't do that. We shouldn't go there, but we need that sort of discussion. And we don't have it at all because politicians are sort of, I don't know. I don't know why they don't take it up. Like, I think it's very complicated. And unfortunately, we live in a world of soundbites where people wanna reduce complexity. And complexity is exploding. And we need to find a way where we sort of.

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  Honor or yeah, or really cherish that complexity. But also, and I come back in there, we said before vaccines or whatever, and trust certain people though to do the work for us. Yeah, I think the biggest problem what we have in society, one of the biggest problems is eroding trust. Yeah, and it will be impossible. Meaning for me already, like I have in a Pyron, we have round about sixty colleagues. Yeah, so I have to trust them. I cannot tell you on everything. I had to say to you on N A D plus, I can't tell you the mechanism of action. But I do remember that I spoke to David Sinclair and he explained it to me well. And after the call, I was like, I trust David and this is why I'm taking it.

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I'm not able so, so, and I have all the resources at hand and I'm not able to understand every single detail of every single medicine we developing in companies or whatever. Yeah, so, and we living in this world where people like coming back to the vaccines, think they have to understand everything and what they really have to do, they have to pick the people they really trust. Yeah, and then so, and that is, I think, what we completely lost in society, that discussion plus trust in certain institutions. And you can say obviously that people, politicians maybe really didn't earn the trust. Yeah, but like, so they need to earn it back. Yeah, but I think we're gonna go to ten, twenty really, really, really volatile years

• 1:31:52Speaker 02

  in terms of society, because everything is touched. If we live just two hundred years, let's not talk about two hundred, a hundred years, the German pension system is not, what's the English term? So we don't own stocks or whatever. So the German pension system is a liability from one generation to the other. If we add ten more years, which gonna happen for sure, that's a fact. Like, I mean, not a fact, yeah, but like, for me, that's a fact. German pension system and the German sort of, everybody thinks Germany is a very, is a very solid country, it's gonna explode. Yeah, we need to find a solution for that. Yeah, and it's just one out of thousands things where society and our life will change because of technological invention, innovation.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  And yeah, and we need to sort of get ahead of that. And at the moment, we're as a society deeply behind the curve.

• 1:32:46Anthony Pompliano?

  You guys got any questions? No, this was great. You ain't got no questions? I mean, I was literally just asking questions throughout. John?

• 1:32:53Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, I could think of a few. So what you talked about was really interesting. What are you most excited about in all those different areas within the next 10 years? So you talked about psychedelics, you talked a little bit about the financial institution in Germany and other places as well, the life longevity aspect of it. Like, what do you think we'll see the most in innovation in the next 10 years?

• 1:33:16Speaker 02

  Well, two different questions. I'm personally, my portfolio, I'm most excited about sort of a tie because we're solving the biggest problem in healthcare. I'm very excited about, let's say, number two is the whole crypto world as one theme, like Northern data, whatever, but like as a theme crypto, then longevity. So these are brain computer, but they all tie into each other. Brain computer interface will also be solving, hopefully, some, some mental health issues. So, so these are, we touched all the topics, literally, which sort of I'm most excited about. Actually, what we didn't touch, which is one other important thing is like, sort of the way, what we eat and how do we produce it?

• 1:33:56Speaker 02

  Because I think, again, if you look at climate change, yeah, I'm totally a believer in climate change, but I do think the way society or politics is tackling it is completely insane because it's like pretending to do something, but it's not going to change. Like, the two biggest things is we need to go back, at least in Germany. I mean, Germany, by the way, we all believe Germany is so green and the CO2 emissions are rather going up compared, for example, to France. Why? Because France has nuclear energy, which is from a CO2 perspective. Again, we had at the very beginning, you need to be clear what you want to solve. Yeah, yes, you have nuclear waste, whatever, it's another problem. But if I'm focusing on climate change and on CO2 emissions, yeah, nuclear power is the technology and fusion.

• 1:34:40Speaker 02

  We're very invested in infusion technology as sort of the, the next level, yeah, is the solution. And the second solution is we cannot have livestock anymore. Yeah, I think, I don't want to say the wrong word, I think 17% of CO2 emissions are pooping cows, you know, or pooping animals. Yeah, I don't know if it's just the cows and the, yeah, whatever. So, so, so these are the two things. So I'm very excited also about the ability to either do plant-based replacements, but I do think not the whole world will go sort of vegan or vegetarian. So you need to have lab grown or sort of. Sort of artificially, it's a negative word, but like people, oh, artificial meat, but like, but it's gonna be real meat, but not grown with a cow.

• 1:35:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and not with the sort of cow around, which is a very inefficient way to produce meat. Yeah, that's the one we didn't touch, but that's what I'm excited about.

• 1:35:32Speaker 03

  Okay, and then I got two more questions real quick. What do you think is one of the most important things someone could do from a lifelong longevity standpoint if they are relatively in shape and eat decently healthy? We call they don't really care about their diet, but they they work out and they they're relatively.

• 1:35:47Speaker 02

  Like you describing yourself.

• 1:35:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, before asking for a friend, how old are you?

• 1:35:53Speaker 03

  Twenty five.

• 1:35:54Speaker 02

  Well, you're pretty young, so that's like sort of, I still, I would do start with intermittent fasting. I think intermittent fasting is a great, a great general thing everybody should do. Yeah, it's actually, by the way, gonna make you more concentrated. People think, oh, if I don't eat, that's what you're primed for. I can't concentrate. It's the opposite, because when we were hunters and gatherers, like when we were hungry, so before eating, our senses went up. So you're actually feeling super energetic and in a moment you take food, your body is like, wow, now you can rest like and lie down. So do intermittent fasting, do vitamin D. Yeah. Again, I'm gonna publish that thing, like do energy plasma. I mean, there is not too early for these things.

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  They're all extremely, extremely healthy.

• 1:36:41Speaker 03

  Cool. And then I read online that you are a member of the Presidential Advisory Council for the President of Rwanda?

• 1:36:50Speaker 02

  Yep, I am.

• 1:36:51Speaker 03

  Well, how'd you get involved in that?

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  Uh, crazy story. By the way, like most in my life, this is why I quoted Mike so often, is like, I think my general view is like, you have to go, or you should go through life like with an open sort of mind and an open heart, because why not? Yeah, there is no, there is just upside to it. Yeah. And then you bump into amazing opportunities and people are just so closed and so sort of negative. Yeah, so and I'm always like interested in meeting other people. My general assumption is also that I can learn something from every single person I meet. I just need to find out what it is, like from a taxi driver. Everybody does something good or something better than I do.

• 1:37:35Speaker 02

  And I just want, it's just, so, so this is my friends know that they, I like to meet, love to meet new people that are so like two thousand seven. A friend called me and said, hey, the president of Rwanda is in town in Germany. Do you want to have dinner with him? And I was like, sure, that's awesome. Like, so I Googled his history and he's a very, he's actually one of, if not the most prolific leader I've ever met because Rwanda had a horrible history of a genocide. We should have never happened. The world was watching. The UN had troops there and we thought after Germany, the Holocaust, we thought never again. And then we let it happen again and again. So, and he was the guy who ended it.

• 1:38:19Speaker 02

  So for that alone, he should get the Nobel Prize. Yeah. So I was like, wow, this is fascinating. Want to meet him. So we sort of, I say, kicked off like we had a real good chemistry. And then he said, and by the way, the other thing is always tell myself, be honest. This is what we had on the postcards, like, we have to be polite, but honest to each other because that's the only way to learn and evolve. So, and, and he was saying like, have you ever been to Africa? And actually till 2007, I had never, ever been to Africa, except for Egypt, but like real Africa. So, and I was looking at him and I was like, actually normally you would say in terms of political correctness and protocol, I would say, oh, I would love to visit you, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And then never call again. Yeah.

• 1:39:04Speaker 02

  And I thought, no, let me tell him what I honestly think. It was like, look, this dinner was fascinating, but back then I changed a lot. I was a hypochondriac and I was like, and I had no clue about Africa. And I admitted that I didn't know about Africa. And I was like, it feels risky. I actually don't want to go like, because he was like, visit me like, I was like, I don't want to go. There's malaria, there is other bad stuff, like maybe I'm going to kill, like, yeah. And it was so hilariously bad what my view on Africa was, but if I hadn't be polite and honest about it, I would have never had the opportunity that somebody changes my mind. So, and he was like, Christian, he was, I will never forget it. It was such a nice dinner, but your view on Africa is really non-informed. Yeah. But you seem to be a guy who wants to learn. Please take my invite, come to Rwanda.

• 1:39:48Speaker 02

  So I flew to Rwanda some months later and it was hands down one of the most fascinating. Fascinating positive experiences. This country is like Singapore in Africa. So he has built this kind of very capitalistic, like very forward looking. I mean, imagine you coming from a genocide, yeah. And even if you stop the genocide itself, this country is deeply wounded. Like talking about mental health issues, there you have it on steroids. Yeah. And he has been able with his leadership to transform that country into these sort of vibrant, technology savvy, it's the sort of IT center of East Africa. Forward looking, stable, in any way, sort of economic powerhouse of Africa.

• 1:40:33Speaker 02

  And that was so fascinating. We became friends and someone, he asked me if I want to be on his advisory council, which I'm very happy and proud to be. But they say, so I try to, because it's not just an anecdote. I think it's sort of always when I think about how I met him, it's really like, it's everything I think which we should be in life to evolve.

• 1:40:53Speaker 03

  That's amazing.

• 1:40:55Anthony Pompliano?

  John, what would you spend per month if you could get an extra three years in the end of your life?

• 1:41:04Speaker 03

  From starting right now?

• 1:41:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Would you spend a hundred dollars a month?

• 1:41:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:41:10Anthony Pompliano?

  We spend 500?

• 1:41:12Speaker 03

  It depends.

• 1:41:14Speaker 02

  Why do you thinking?

• 1:41:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:41:18Speaker 03

  Yes, but it depends on your mental and physical health at that point.

• 1:41:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I think it's always the assumption when people ask that question, I think you assumed obviously in good mental and physical health.

• 1:41:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Not in pain.

• 1:41:29Speaker 02

  Not in pain, not, yeah, in your shape now.

• 1:41:31Anthony Pompliano?

  But it's a good, but it's a good call out that part of this, and I think a big piece of the longevity community is it's not just about, hey, how long can you hold on for? It's also doing it with a high degree of quality, right?

• 1:41:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, if I'm, if I'm crazy in the last three years, it's probably not very fun for me or anyone that's around me.

• 1:41:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you crazy right now?

• 1:41:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. But if I was in good health mentally and physically, I don't think there's a limit on what I would spend.

• 1:41:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, whatever I could afford. Like you tell me the number and it's like, yeah, if I can do that, sure. And yeah, I think that's what most people would say.

• 1:42:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think we would spend, I mean, that's what people realize when they're sick. They would spend all of their money on being healthy again. Without health and, and, and, and so I think that's why I always like people. I think the whole, both, again, I see a tie and then Cameron and Juveron. I like sort of the same side of the coin because like you wanna be happy. And what, what do we really want? Like, I always say, if you poke people and say, what do you want in life? Then one might say, I want a happy marriage. I want children. I want a car. I want success, whatever. But if you go on poking and say, why do you want children? Why do you want a happy marriage? Why do you want a car? Why do you want a job? Ultimately, they all say, I wanna be happy and healthy.

• 1:42:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, providing happiness and healthy thing is literally is hundred percent. The total addressable market is hundred percent of the world population.

• 1:42:55Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I saw somebody say, hell, yeah. Three years at the end of your life, how much compounding will that get you?

• 1:43:00Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. So save a bit and you still become.

• 1:43:04Anthony Pompliano?

  The real question is, how much would you pay to have like three extra years somewhere in your life? Like in between?

• 1:43:09Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 1:43:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, what if you were like, cause I feel like.

• 1:43:12Speaker 02

  Like live over turning thirty three times?

• 1:43:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, or something like that, right? Cause I feel like some people are like, yeah, it'd be great to live three extra years, obviously. But they'd rather enjoy that time when they're young, when they can go do things, when they, you know, are with certain family members or something like that. Not that it's possible, but. So here is one thing that I have not done yet, but I recently was looking at because of the Sinclair Huberman podcast is I think I'm gonna go get my, my biological age. Like go do the test and see what does it say my biological age is. I'm scared because I figure it's gonna be not my chronological age, probably older. But I feel like you gotta know what it is in order to start to address it.

• 1:43:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, by the way, because it's not as bad when I say it now because it just came as an idea. And not because you said your biological age, but we talked a little about what you have to do. Yeah. And we didn't talk about health wise, what you should not do.

• 1:44:04Anthony Pompliano?

  What are the top two things?

• 1:44:05Speaker 02

  The top things like no alcohol, yeah, zero. I've never tried it.

• 1:44:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Never in your life?

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  Never. I actually, I cheered on New Year's Eve and definitely something touched my lips.

• 1:44:19Speaker 02

  So I'm not a, I'm not a complete virgin, so to say, but I never was drunk. And maybe I

• 1:44:25Anthony Pompliano?

  No, that doesn't count.

• 1:44:26Speaker 02

  I drink a zip of alcohol five times on New Year's Eve, to be polite. But alcohol is, is a poison. Whoever is watching now, Google David Nutt, Nutt is N U T T, chart. David, dear friend, he's sort of the drug, the mental health star of, of, of the UK. And he did this study, I think more than 10 years ago now, where he

• 1:44:50Anthony Pompliano?

  More harmful than heroin.

• 1:44:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:44:52Anthony Pompliano?

  And crack.

• 1:44:53Speaker 02

  What is?

• 1:44:54Anthony Pompliano?

  And cocaine and tobacco.

• 1:44:56Speaker 02

  So, so what David did

• 1:44:57Anthony Pompliano?

  I stopped drinking January 1st, 2020. I haven't drank since.

• 1:45:00Speaker 02

  Great. But what David did, he looked at all the legal and illegal drugs and, and made a harm scale. Because it's not just like, can you die of it? Can you get disabled? Can you get mentally disabled? Can you harm others? Da, da, da, da, da. And if you look at the whole sort of holistic view on what is risk? Yeah. Indeed, alcohol is a little bit more risky than heroin. Doesn't, by the way, say do heroin or alcohol. But like, it says both are very, very, very, very bad for you. Like, and then comes everything which is bad. And then at the very end, practically no risk is psychedelics, by the way. Yeah. So that is one thing alcohol is, and obviously smoking, alcohol, no alcohol, no smoking.

• 1:45:37Anthony Pompliano?

  What about sugar?

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  No sugar. We had that. Yeah. But then, and the one thing which I'm obsessed with is sleep. Yeah. Sleep is, is a real superpower. Yeah. Most things we talked about, we don't want to get from cardiovascular diseases to, to Alzheimer's, to cancer, whatever, are linked as well to sleep deprivation. Yeah. And I think we as society, and especially by the way, the crypto and startup world, is glorifying working day and night. I think we should glorify indeed working relentlessly. I love working because I love my job, but I'm making really, really sure that I get enough sleep. Yeah. So for example,

• 1:46:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you ever eat sleep?

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  I want to try it, meaning I saw it a lot. Like, yeah, I need one. Yeah.

• 1:46:23Anthony Pompliano?

  That's the number one thing that I did. So I didn't realize with the whole sleep thing.

• 1:46:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Sleep, obviously, temperature is big, sound, light, oxygen, right? There's like all these things that go into it. But it's also what you do beforehand. So like now, I sleep very well, which surprises people. But I drink tea about 45 minutes or so. I'm like obsessive about it, that I drink it before I know I want to go to sleep. It's like a, what is it? Chamomile tea? That's got like a little bit of melatonin that comes in the tea.

• 1:46:58Speaker 02

  Great.

• 1:46:58Anthony Pompliano?

  And so it basically, I don't care how much you want to stay up. You just, you have to go to sleep. You just get tired. Then you go to sleep. I sleep really cold on the eight sleep, pitch black. We have like a little sound machine thing, right? That essentially just lulls you to sleep and you feel a hundred times better than if you didn't drink that, didn't go to sleep at the same time, didn't have the eight sleep, had a little bit of light coming through the windows and also didn't have the sound. Like people don't realize until you do it, it's a world of difference.

• 1:47:31Speaker 02

  And take enough time. And do all of that. And then, so for example, one of my really luxury things is in life. I try not to schedule meetings before 10 a.m. Doesn't mean I not start working, but I can wake up naturally. So because the sleep goes in cycles and when I just missing the last 10 minutes I would need, it really ruins the whole cycle. So I'm really like, if it's not a day I have to travel though, but very rarely I have to wake up with an alarm clock, which is one of the very healthy things to do because my body can take as much sleep as it needs.

• 1:48:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What time do you go to bed and wake up?

• 1:48:04Speaker 02

  That's one of my bigger problems, but also I do feel, no, but like it's again, it's also it's like listening to your body. Science would tell you, or at least most studies, that it would be very healthy to go at the same time to bed. I think I'm completely messed up there because I'm since 20 years I'm traveling between time zones. So even if I now, even during COVID, when I was in London, yeah, sometimes I was tired at nine and then I go to bed and sometimes I'm tired at one. So I go to bed when I'm tired. Yeah. So, so, yeah. So if I look at studies, I'm like, okay, that's not so good. Yeah. But like, it feels okay for me because I'm getting the sleep and I'm really going to bed when, yeah. But studies tell you ideally go to bed at the same time.

• 1:48:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Anything else? What about exercise?

• 1:48:50Speaker 02

  I do, like, I was very bad before Christmas, but like, I try to do a little bit of exercise every day, like even if it's like 10 minutes, like, whatever, Peloton or whatever, yeah, and then two, three, four times real training with a trainer.

• 1:49:06Anthony Pompliano?

  I feel like if you just move, eat relatively healthy, you sleep, and you just keep poison out of your body, like.

• 1:49:14Speaker 02

  It's 80% of it. There's this famous 80/20 rules. Like, I think a lot of things we discussed, I think we discussed the 80%, like, everything you said, plus vitamin D, plus metformin, and then you have 30 other things you can do, from spermidin to whatever, yeah? That's then the icing on the cake, yeah? But if you, if you're drinking alcohol, so if you're not getting your 80% right, you don't need to focus on the combo sum 20%.

• 1:49:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 1:49:39Speaker 02

  And by the way, I can say it again, at the very end, it's also important that you're happy. Yeah, I think being happy, not just because it's sort of the goal in life, but also there is, there is great studies which show that people who are happy, genuinely happy, are also healthier, because there seems to be a relation between our immune system and our whole body function, which is, by the way, one of the things I wanna look into more. So, we, we did great, we did a, Compass, our magic mushroom company, did a great study, giving people with end of life, or generally with cancer, yeah? And some of them were already sort of at the end of the journey, some of them were early, yeah? But cancer often produces depression, yeah?

• 1:50:24Speaker 02

  And we had a great study with Compass, that magic mushrooms can eliminate, with a very good success rate, depression in cancer patients. But when we talked to, which is not like, sort of in the study, that's super important, yeah? But that is sort of the feeling, and it was a small study, so I wanna do a bigger one. So, the feeling was, and by the way, not just with this study, but the feeling in generally of, of cancer doctors, oncologists, if you talk to them, is that people who are happy.

• 1:50:52Speaker 02

  Get through chemo and ever better and have a higher rate of survival. Why? Because their immune system is better, they take it better, whatever. Yeah, so it might be clever in the future, once psychedelics are approved, even preventatively, if you have a severe illness, make sure that not additionally to the severe illness, you get a depression, which then actually is burdening the the healing process of your illness. Yeah, this is important, it's not proven, but it's a hunch. Yeah, which which I definitely want to design a study around because I think it's worth it.

• 1:51:25Anthony Pompliano?

  I think it's a no brainer. But what do I know?

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  All right, where can we start?

• 1:51:28Anthony Pompliano?

  What about find you on the internet?

• 1:51:30Speaker 02

  I'm on Twitter. And my Twitter handle is hopefully I say it right. Check it.

• 1:51:36Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm gonna drop it.

• 1:51:36Speaker 03

  It's on the thing.

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  It's on the screen.

• 1:51:38Speaker 03

  Underscore.

• 1:51:39Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm putting it in the chat right now. If you want to follow Christian, just go to the chat right now, you can click on the link there. It's C underscore Auger Meyer.

• 1:51:49Speaker 02

  Auger Meyer, exactly.

• 1:51:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Ungedemeyer.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:51Anthony Pompliano?

  That's like a very German.

• 1:51:52Speaker 02

  Completely German word.

• 1:51:53Speaker 03

  Creating companies, movies and good memories.

• 1:51:56Speaker 02

  Exactly. We had, by the way, a very cool movie last year. I'm so proud of it. It was like super surprising. We did a prequel to Army of the Dead. Have you seen Army of the Dead?

• 1:52:06Anthony Pompliano?

  No.

• 1:52:06Speaker 02

  Of Sex, Snyder.

• 1:52:07Anthony Pompliano?

  No.

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  And a very close friend of mine, Matthias, he was one of the main actors in Army of the Dead. And then we convinced Sex, Snyder that we can produce a prequel about his character and it was it's Army of Thieves, which was one of the most successful Netflix movies of 2021. So I love making movies. And by the way, it's the same. Creating companies and creating movies is sort of, it's this creation process which fascinates me. You have an idea. Yeah, you need to find people you collaborate with. You need to find financing. You need to build up the whole thing. So that's what I like to do day and night.

• 1:52:43Speaker 03

  That's what we like to do.

• 1:52:43Speaker 02

  And then LinkedIn, if you want to find me like, I think LinkedIn is is sometimes more polite. Yeah, so Twitter always gets so heated. Yeah, LinkedIn is sort of, these are the two social media channels I'm doing.

• 1:52:54Anthony Pompliano?

  We we get in the mud on Twitter. We like the we like the mud. All right, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate everyone watching.