#750 The First Decentralized Talent Network w/ Adam Jackson

Adam Jackson is the Co-Founder of Braintrust. In this conversation, we discuss hiring networks, marketplaces, Web3, economic incentives, and the future of this industry. ======================= Mode, UK Fintech app, allows you to buy, earn and grow Bitcoin, all in one app. Not only is it an easy and safe way to buy and hold Bitcoin, with Mode you can shop and receive up to 10% Bitcoin Cashback for FREE from its growing list of online partner brands. Available on the App Store and Google Play. Download Mode at modeapp.com and enjoy 0% trading fees on all buys and sells until Dec 31, 2021. Only available in the UK. ======================= Cryptocurrency is the future, so don’t get left in the past, bet with MyBookie and you can get in the game now! To get you kickstarted with crypto, use my promo code (POMP) to double your first crypto deposit at MyBookie. The best part is, MyBookie accepts well-known crypto currencies like Bitcoin, Litecoin, and Ethereum so you can bet and withdraw with Crypto. The NFL Playoffs are around the corner and this week the Buffalo Bills and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers will face off in a potential Super Bowl preview. Both teams sit 1 win away from earning the top spot in their respective conference, but in this high stakes game, bet the Buc’s Moneyline. Don’t miss out, double your first deposit up to $1000 by using promo code [POMP]. Head to MyBookie today, place your bets, and watch the sparks fly with UFC269. Bet anything, anytime, anywhere…with MyBookie. Visit http://mybookie.website/joinwithPOMP ======================= Do you want a new job in the bitcoin and crypto industry? You should go apply for hundreds of open roles at http://www.pompcryptojobs.com or sign up for our training program at http://www.pompscryptocourse.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Adam Jackson is the founder of Brain Trust. In this conversation, we talk about hiring networks, marketplaces, Web 3, economic incentives, and where the future of this industry is going. I really enjoyed this conversation with Adam, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is Mode. UK Bitcoin investors, listen up. Mode is an app that allows you to buy, earn, and grow Bitcoin effortlessly. Not only is it an easy and safe way to buy and hold Bitcoin, Mode also allows you to pay and receive up to 10% Bitcoin cash back

• 0:46Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:30Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:14Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:59Anthony Pompliano?

  There's been over a couple hundred people that have already been hired this year. One company's hired almost 40 people this year off pompcryptojobs.com. So if you're looking for a job, go to pompcryptojobs today and you will find the best open roles that you have to offer. All right, let's get in this episode. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:42Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, Adam, you there?

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Hey guys, how's it going?

• 3:46Anthony Pompliano?

  What's going on, man? I'm super pumped to talk about this. How are you?

• 3:49Speaker 02

  Hey, doing well. Thanks for having me on.

• 3:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Let's jump right into, uh, Brain Trust. I think a lot of people have no clue what this is in terms of, they've heard it. They understand that it's big, it's moving, that, um, you guys have a lot of momentum behind you. But explain exactly what Brain Trust does from a product standpoint.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, you got it. Brain Trust is a pretty new network. It is a decentralized global talent network. So it connects knowledge workers looking for gigs with clients that want to hire them. It's that simple. That, that concept is not new. The ownership and control structure of the network is what's new.

• 4:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Right? So, so this is all about web three, right? Like web two is for-profit corporations in the middle, taking a big rake, sending that back out as dividends, like, you know, eBay all the way up the DoorDash, Uber. Web three is all about the folks who make their living on the network, also owning and controlling it. And that's what Braintrust is in the IT space.

• 4:44Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So let's start first with just the kind of product itself. It's a marketplace, essentially, where you're bringing together two sides. Talk to me about the size or success of getting both sides of a marketplace. When you start a marketplace, you've got kind of the liquidity problem where there's supply, there's demand. Which one do you go after first? Walk us through how you've gotten there to be actually this market liquidity now where people are able to actually fill jobs.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, starting marketplaces is hard. You have what's called the cold start problem. And so the web two playbook for this is you raise billions of dollars in venture, you subsidize one or both sides of that marketplace until you get liquidity. And if you're lucky enough to achieve liquidity, break Earth's orbit, and then you come out the other end, basically with a fully investor owned network, and those investors need a return, rightfully so. And so the rake goes up and up and up. Web three is the opposite, right? So you don't raise a ton of money. You give ownership and control of your marketplace to your users, the folks who make their living on the marketplace. And that's how you bootstrap the marketplace, right? So in Braintrust's case, we started with the talent. So we have

• 5:50Speaker 02

  a lot of IT professionals. So think like UX designers, programmers, product managers, folks like that who build software, design stuff. We started with a few hundred of them, got our first couple of clients. Nestle, Porsche were among the first. We asked those first few hundred talent, hey, can you invite more talent? And in exchange, they were getting Braintrust tokens for making those invitations and those referrals, add some more clients, and it's basically brick by brick. That's how you build it.

• 6:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I'm looking at your website right now. And the companies that you have listed here, these are not like, you know, mom and pop, small businesses. You've got NASA, TaskRabbit, Nike, Nextdoor, Deloitte, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Nestle, Porsche, Black and Decker, Pacific Life. And that's just the ones that are on the website, right? So when you think about this, why are they coming to you guys? Is it just simply because you're more effective at filling the roles? Or is there some other reason why these large corporations are choosing to work with you?

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, a couple of reasons, right? So Clients like that will go wherever the talent is that they need. And look, like these days, like basically every company has to act and innovate like a tech company. Right? So if in the global war for for tech talent, Facebook, Amazon, Google are winning. Everybody else is kind of just trying to keep up. And so where you, where do you get the best talent? Well, the talent go where they're not going to pay any fees, right? Like the talent, if they go to Fiverr or Upwork, they're paying a big rake. Or they go work at Accenture, one of the big consulting firms, they're being marked up a ton. Right? And it's not like you don't really get to choose what you do. In in Brain Trust, you come on as a talent, you create a profile, there's no, you pay no rake.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  There's a 0% fee to talent, flat 10% fee to clients. And so the clients showed up and they're like, hey, you got this talent. Like it's way cheaper than if we went to, you know, Accenture or some other marketplace. Because it's, you know, the rake's almost zero. And they're like, cool, like they're like blockchain, we don't care, right? Like, I don't care how you're doing it, you've got the talent, we're in. And that's how it started.

• 7:51Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you start to think about from the candidate side, what is the idea here in terms of their interaction? Is it just simply like they normally apply to a job as they would on any other kind of talent network?

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's like any other marketplace in that sense. So talent comes on, they create a profile. Sometimes you need to get approved by the community, vetted, make sure you are who you say you are and your skills match up and all that stuff. But then you're looking at a job board, basically. You're looking at, oh, here's Goldman Sachs needs Java developers for their mobile apps. Nike needs developers. And you look at a job you want, you submit a proposal. If the client likes it, you agree on a price and you get paid through the platform.

• 8:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then talk to me about this fundraise that you guys are announcing in terms of you raised $100 million, which is not a small amount of money. So where's this money coming from? What are you going to do with it? Why are people investing?

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is kind of interesting. It's not like your typical fundraiser. So it was the firm Kotu actually approached us about this and they said, hey,

• 8:56Speaker 02

  You know, COTU is, for anyone who hasn't heard, COTU is a big fund that has invested in dozens of, maybe more of web two companies. And they came to us and said, look, we've been watching Brain Trust for a long time. You know, this whole web three thing where, you know, it's, it's tokens that represent ownership and control like, and that allows you to bring this rake way down and, you know, a lower rake means a faster growing and more robust marketplace. Right. Stronger network effects. And they said, hey, you know, we'd love to participate. And we said, you know, we don't really need the capital at this point, but if you want to like lean in and help us build essentially join the community, you know, we can consider it. And so they said, yeah, we're in like, we understand talent.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  They, they actually acquired some recruiting firms, some, some tech recruiters, and they're like, hey, we know, we know recruiting. Why don't we lean in and help you guys build out Brain Trust for recruiters and, you know, help you grow even faster. And so the round came together, a hundred million of a bunch of firms participating, True Ventures, Tiger, Blockchain, Hashkey. And that money basically just goes into community grant program. So, you know, it's, it's not like a traditional fundraiser, it'd be like a corporation takes that money and sits on the balance sheet. You go hire more people, right? And like the management team decides what happens. In a decentralized network, it goes into essentially the, the community treasury.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  And then folks can submit proposals, be like, hey, Brain Trust should, you know, translate for APAC. And, you know, localize in, in different regions. Here's a proposal for that. Community votes. Money goes out and funds it. So that's, that's kind of the, why it's a unique fundraiser.

• 10:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And when you talk about this being decentralized, is this like an open source thing that other people can come in? And they can basically build on top of the network and, and kind of use this as a building block? Or how do you think about like the relationship with other people, uh, uh, maybe potential like business development type deals versus people who are building other types of applications that would love the data or the marketplace infrastructure or anything like that?

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Exactly right. It's all open source. The data is, you know, most companies like keep their data close and it's behind paywalls and all this stuff. We put everything up on our dashboard. All the users own their own data, their work history, their reputation. The call, the smart contracts are open source. You know, folk, I imagine like right now, we're just brain trust is just in IT. You can imagine people have been talking about doing, you know, expanding brain trust into accountants, lawyers, compliance professionals, basically anyone who makes their living in front of a computer. This model could work, right? You could, you know, it's, we call it kind of unbundling of the corporate firm.

• 11:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then in terms of the downsides, like there's obvious advantages to doing it the way that you're doing it. What are the downsides or what are the trade offs that you're making where you're like, ah, you know what, actually like a centralized hierarchical structure is better in, you know, A or B scenario?

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Well, I would say initially control, right? Like I come from the web two world. I've been building and investing in web two marketplaces pretty much my whole career. And, you know, when you're CEO, one of those, you say, okay, we're going to do this next and we're going to do that next. And everyone sort of falls in line. With a decentralized network, you know, it's community run, right? And so like if you could look at our, our brain trust snapshot where people propose things and vote on them and vote out on how to change the network. And, you know, I'm like the last to know on half of those. And it's, so it's like, I, it's, I don't know if it's a chat, like it's something you gotta get used to, you know, like I think good things and bad things can come out of it. But we, we just think that decentralized networks, you know, just have more people with skin in the game and they tend to grow faster.

• 12:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Joe and John, what questions do you guys have? So my question would be around the academy. Just talk through kind of how the brain trust academy works with the courses and stuff?

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is a good example of, of something that was like totally out of my purview. But so it was one of the nodes on the network built this. And the idea, there's lots of iterations of it, but the idea is Have an academy where you can upskill, right? So if you're a junior developer, you can become a senior developer and you basically will use Brain Trust tokens to pay for those courses. And then conversely, you can actually earn tokens by taking Brain Trust classes on like how to be a better contributor to the Brain Trust ecosystem. Like an example, that would be, you know, we have just like tens of thousands of talent joining the network all the time and to, you know, allow them to propose on like these

• 13:24Speaker 02

  enterprise jobs, they need to be screened, right? You can't just let anyone do it. And so the community screens itself, screens all these new applicants. And so you could take a Brain Trust Academy course to learn how to be a screener and earn tokens. So you're kind of in the ecosystem that way.

• 13:39Anthony Pompliano?

  John, what questions you got?

• 13:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, thanks, Adam, for doing this. I'm curious about after this, you guys just raised some money. After this, what are you guys gonna try to do? Are you guys gonna try to just scale up the business? Are you gonna try to pivot into different avenues and grow that way? What are your thoughts around that?

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, I think the opportunity here for a decentralized talent network is to actually start consolidating the space. I think, think about what Airbnb did for vacation rentals. Like, like pre Airbnb, it was a mess, right? Like there's scammers on Craigslist, there's like travel agents, like you're using the phone and like, it was just a mess, right? There was no way to know if anything's quality, if who's scamming you. Airbnb came in, had a better model, better UI, and started consolidating a previously completely fragmented space. I, I think the Brain Trust network has a similar potential to start consolidating knowledge workers, right? Folks who don't want to be in their cubicle job, don't want to commute, who don't want

• 14:37Speaker 02

  to work at a consulting firm or their corporate job, they would rather freelance because you can work from wherever for whatever amount you want. You could work six months on, six months off. But the, you know, but the problem with freelancing traditionally has been like, who are you gonna freelance for, right? You gotta like start an agency and go out there and sell and pitch. Like, most people don't like pitching clients all day. And, and what Brain Trust, I think, is solving is because the fees are basically zero. You have unlimited demand. Like, I can actually attest to this today. Braintrust has almost unlimited demand from clients. The network is very much talent shortage. And so now, folks who don't want corporate jobs anymore can come freelance. And so I think this network has this potential

• 15:22Speaker 02

  to like, be the go-to place where knowledge workers who just are fed up with the corporate world can come find gigs.

• 15:29Anthony Pompliano?

  What's been the biggest surprise as you've built this, Adam?

• 15:35Speaker 02

  The biggest surprise is, you know, it's such a counterintuitive story. And like, I feel like it makes sense to me, but like, people are like, "Yeah, but like, how does Braintrust make money?" Right? Like, why is there no company? Right? So you like, have to explain like, "No, it's like a co-op, right? Like, it's a network, right? And people make money on that network. But the network itself doesn't have to be for profit." That's so counterintuitive, right? There's no Bitcoin Inc., there's no Ethereum Inc., but people make money on those networks, right? So I was surprised that, you know, and, you know, a lot of investors, I give, you know, Co2 and these new investors all the credit in the world for figuring this out. We didn't pitch them on it, they came to

• 16:17Speaker 02

  us. But like, a lot of folks on Sand Hill were like, "This is a stupid idea." Like, two years ago when we started and still today are like, "This is kind of stupid." And like, now it's growing big, right? So that was surprising to me.

• 16:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then, in terms of, when you think of a kind of like this decentralized thing, how much of the, when you use the word decentralized, is about the technology tech stack? And like, if somebody came and tried to shut it down, they couldn't shut it down? Versus it's decentralized in terms of, kind of, the user control and the ability to source talent and source the customers in kind of more of like a distributed way? Like, unpack that a little bit.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So both are critical. So Braintrust is built on Ethereum. We inherit all of the security from the Ethereum network. So Ethereum has tens of thousands of miners. You can't shut it off, right? And so that's critical. I don't think, you know, brain trust could exist without Ethereum. Maybe Solana would work as well, but. And then so technical decentralization treats of centralization is really important. And then, but I think more importantly, Pom, is what you just said is sort of like business operations decentralization. Like, you know, I run one of the six core teams that that built the network. And if we went away, the thing would would move on without us.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Right, there's lots of different people contributing, thousands and thousands of people referring new clients. And to me, that that's absolutely critical. Like, if if if a network is like business wise centrally controlled, it might as well be a corporation. And corporations can change the rules anytime they want. Right, if if someone wants to change the rules on brain trust, like how much? How many fees should the talent pay? The token holders got to vote because it's all on a smart contract. So it's it's to me, it's like, it's about fairness, right? It in the gig economy companies, they have done a lot of unfair things to their workers. And that that stuff's just not possible on a decentralized network.

• 18:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And now talk to me about, obviously, a lot of people watching this will say a couple of things. So like, one is, why not build on Bitcoin? Why not build on Solana, Binance Smart Chain, any of these other smart contract platforms? Explain kind of the analysis that you all have done in terms of the various places where you could build something like this? And then what the kind of conviction that you had to build on Ethereum was versus something else? And then what maybe what the pros and cons of that decision have been so far?

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is a great topic, and I've been in this space a long time. So we we thought carefully about it. We we had to sort of pick a chain about 18, 20 months ago or so. And we wanted, you know, it had to be Turing complete. You had to run smart contracts during complete. It wasn't possible on Bitcoin. I love Bitcoin, you know, been there forever, absolutely, you know, no question on Bitcoin's integrity. The Turing complete piece was important. And then why not other layer ones? We wanted the ecosystem. We wanted developers, you know, that could easily build with solidity, institutional custody partners like Anchorage and Coinbase. You know, we have folks that, you know, I think

• 19:25Speaker 02

  don't want to own their own keys. They want them, you know, in an insured custodian and, and two years ago, Ethereum was the only gaming town. Now, fast forward to now, I think, you know, Solana especially and a lot of these other projects are super interesting. And I think Brain Trust should probably at some time be portable, you know, across these other chains. Brain Trust is a layer three, right? It shouldn't, shouldn't be dogmatic about a layer one.

• 19:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then in terms of how you think about recruiting for your own business, talk to me about where you're seeing talent flow in. Are you seeing people leave legacy finance, leave legacy technology companies to come and work for you? Or are you seeing folks that are younger, that maybe this is like their first job and they're kind of more, you know, crypto native, if you will, like, just talk to me about where you're finding talent to help you build this.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, in droves, folks leaving legacy tech company, like legacy finance, banks, stuff like that, but also, I don't know what a legacy tech company would be, but like, people who just don't want to, you know, work at Netflix or Google or Apple anymore, right? They're just, they just want more freedom. I think those are great places to work, but this like freelancing is all about freedom and autonomy, setting your own rate, setting your own schedule and not going to an office, right? And so we're seeing people flood in from all sectors. As far as like categories that are popular on Brain Trust, I mean, Solana Labs is actually a client on Brain Trust. So they're, you know, they've got Rust people building there. We have tons of solidity work on Brain Trust. So like lots of cutting edge stuff, but also like, you know,

• 21:01Speaker 02

  we have Nike and Goldman Sachs and like, you know, traditional tech stack stuff happening as well.

• 21:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then in terms of how you see the overall industry in general, what are you most excited about outside of what you're building?

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Look, I'm excited about Web 3. So like Braintrust is just a little sliver of that. I'm like emphatic about Web 3. I really think that user-owned networks will grow faster and be more valuable than investor-owned networks. That doesn't mean there's no place for investors, obviously, right? Like Braintrust has some amazing investors and they've leaned in and become part of the community. That's the new angle, I think, right? I think these Silicon Valley VCs and New York firms or whatever have to like lean in and not just write a check and take off, but actually help build. And that was our lens for the folks we're working with. So, look, I think all corporate-owned for-profit networks that are extracting more value than they provide to their users eventually will be disrupted

• 22:00Speaker 02

  by a Web 3 counterpart, right? Think about Uber surge pricing, right? A lot of that money just goes back to Uber Inc. DoorDash, you know, famously in 2019, they rolled out a tipping feature and then decided, yeah, we're keeping all the tips. Fuck it, you know? And it was like, they booked it as revenue. And it's like, dude, you can't like, you can't treat your users like that, right? And so those networks that are extracting disproportionate value, they're going to tokenize. They're eventually going to be owned by their drivers, their riders, the dashers, the knowledge workers, you name it.

• 22:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And then I guess the other piece of this is that as that continues, really what a lot of times people are doing is rather than go spend their customer acquisition costs or marketing money on Amazon or Google or wherever, Facebook, etc. Instead, what they're trying to do is they're basically just trying to give it to their users, right? In some weird way, it's almost like the economics are very similar because there's still got to be an economic incentive, whether you're paying Facebook to get you in front of potential users to then come and join your, you know, whether it's mobile app, a product, whatever. Now, instead, you basically just say, hey, can we cut out that middleman? And can we just give it directly to the people? If that works, we'll see. But it seems to be, at least theoretically, much more attractive to the folks who are looking to join because

• 23:17Anthony Pompliano?

  they're getting paid rather than just seeing an ad somewhere.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  So let me, I'll give you an exact quote of one of the investors in this round. And I'm not, I'm not going to name them because I haven't asked his permission to say this, but- They approached us and they're like, okay, look, we're not, we don't do blockchain. A lot of these firms, actually, this was their first token purchase, which is, I think, also interesting. Right? There's no equity in Brain Trust. There's no Brain Trust, Inc. So these folks are buying tokens. But this guy goes, okay, look, I'm a marketplace investor. I get it. I've been doing it for a decade. I get CAC, I get LTV. I get, you know, ACV, average contract value. And I showed him all the Brain Trust stats, right? It's average contract value is like, you know, I got in front of me, it's like $75,000 or something. And it's, you know, these are big jobs, right?

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Not $500 logo jobs and our CAC is nothing. And he goes, look, man, I don't give a shit about blockchain, but like, how do you put up those numbers? And I was like, well, you give tokens to folks for building the network, referring, screening, bringing clients in, you pay them in tokens, the software does it for you. So you don't have to hire like 50,000 people. And he goes, he sat back, he's like, oh, so you invented your own fake internet money to lower CAC to zero? Is that right? Like, well, I'm not sure I would have said it that way, but essentially, yes. And that, look, dude, that is exactly what you said, right? You can, why like spend a bunch of money on expensive ads when you just, you know, give the, give the value to your users?

• 24:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's definitely interesting in terms of how, how more and more people are trying to, to do this. Where can we send people to learn more about this or to follow you on the internet?

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. Go to braintrust.com. That's the, the website where you can sign up either as a client or talent. And then Twitter, at Adam Jackson SF or at Use Brain Trust.

• 25:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Joe, John, you guys got any more questions? Yeah, appreciate you coming on.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  Thank you, Adam.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Great to see you guys.

• 25:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome, buddy. Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on. Later, buddy.