#742 Bringing Decentralized Technology To Public Markets w/ Russell Starr

Russell Starr is the Executive Chairman and CEO at DeFi Technologies Inc, a digital asset investment firm bridging the gap between traditional capital markets and decentralized finance. The company trades under the ticker symbol DEFTF. In the conversation, we discuss bitcoin, decentralized finance, public markets, regulation, equity and debt markets, managing the balance sheet, and where innovation is happening. ======================= Choice is a new self-directed IRA product that I'm really excited about. If you are listening to this, you are likely part of the 7.1 million bitcoin owners who have retirement accounts with dollars in them, but not bitcoin. I was in that situation too. Now you can actually buy real Bitcoin in your retirement account. I'm talking about owning your private keys and using tax-advantaged dollars to do it too. Absolute game changer. https://www.retirewithchoice.com/pomp ======================= Circle is a global financial technology firm that enables businesses of all sizes to harness the power of stablecoins and public blockchains for payments, commerce and financial applications worldwide. Circle is also a principal developer of USD Coin (USDC), the fastest growing, fully reserved and regulated dollar stablecoin in the world. The free Circle Account and suite of platform API services bridge the gap between traditional payments and crypto for trading, DeFi, and NFT marketplaces. Create seamless, user-friendly, mainstream customer experiences with crypto-native infrastructure under the hood with Circle. Learn more at circle.com.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Russell Starr is the Executive Chairman and CEO at DeFi Technologies, Inc., a digital asset investment firm bridging the gap between traditional capital markets and decentralized finance. The company trades under the ticker symbol D E F T F. In this conversation, we discuss Bitcoin, decentralized finance, public markets, regulation, equity and debt markets, managing the balance sheet, and where innovation is happening today. I really enjoyed this conversation with Russell, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode,

• 0:44Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:27Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:55Anthony Pompliano?

  It's a blockchain-based investment built with USDC, the leading dollar digital currency. Circle Yield is over-collateralized and fully secured with Bitcoin collateral to protect your funds. This also makes it a great fit for crypto institutions who want to diversify their treasuries and reduce risks while staying on-chain. You get your choice of terms from one to 12 months and a fixed rate that's higher than what you'll get at a bank or in many fixed income markets. Visit circle.com/pomp to book a meeting with one of their experts. Again, circle.com/pomp and go book a meeting with one of their experts who will help you manage your corporate or institutional funds in a more attractive way. All right, let's get this episode with Russell. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 4:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Russell, what's going on, man?

• 4:03Speaker 02

  How are you? Good to chat, Anthony. Thanks for having me on.

• 4:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. I appreciate you taking the time to do this. I've got a ton of different questions. First of all, I should say, as a disclaimer or whatever, is that this is the only other stock that I own outside of GBTC, and it's because I've been working with you guys on a whole bunch of different things that you guys are working on, kind of like in an advisory role. So let's get that out of the way. But what I want to understand is, when you look at, one, being a public company and playing in these markets, you're obviously on the Canadian Stock Exchange, talk to me about what advantages you get from being a public company versus being a private company, and then we'll get into some of the stuff that you're actually doing.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, look, Anthony, as everybody knows, regulatory changes and frameworks in this ecosystem, this really fast-growing ecosystem, it's kind of one of the big dominant themes. And so actually having us being able to list these DeFi protocols as ETPs right now in Europe, you know, sort of ticks that regulatory box that a lot of the nascent protocols don't have, and it's what some of the SEC and the US regulators are looking at. So, A, having ourselves listed, it gives people exposure, basically, in a sort of a broad-based sense to the entire crypto space. But then also having our underlying

• 5:27Speaker 02

  products listed also gives, I suspect, a lot of comfort to the regulators, because it's, you know, we are on a traditional listed regulated exchange. And so that's, that would be the best way to answer that question.

• 5:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And then walk me through how you think about your business in terms of the various activities, because you guys are doing all kinds of things from launching ETPs all the way down to making private investments, etc. Like, how do you think about, you know, what is the product suite look like today?

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, our three business lines, as we sort of explain them are obviously the ETPs and our AUM has just skyrocketed since we started about nine months ago. Then, of course, it's infrastructure and governance, which is our node management business. And as I'm sure all your listeners are aware, you know, as you accumulate more and more and more AUM in specific protocols, you can actually petition to manage one of their nodes. And that's what we're doing across the board for all of our products. But then the other really cool space, and obviously, thanks to you and your network and as well our team's network, we do invest, not a lot, but into really nascent, interesting

• 6:35Speaker 02

  sort of VC opportunity type DeFi protocols. So we were a co-investor on the Sovereign play, you know, lots of stuff like that. And really, you know, when it gets down to it, the way I pitch DeFi to a potential investor is I just say, look, if you want a broad-based exposure, like not a miner, if you want broad-based exposure, so we have, you know, a BTC ETP, we have an Ethereum ETP, Solana, Cardano, Polkadot, and we're about to launch Metaverse and Gaming ETPs. You can get sort of that holistic, diversified exposure through our three different business lines, which, you know, and just being blunt, I mean, I love the miners.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  One of our founders created Hive Blockchain, one of the other guys that's involved, Johan Wattenstrom, created CoinShares. So these are, these are deep legacy smart people. But being able to get sort of that generic diversified approach where you're not just long, you know, Hive or Hut or whatnot, I think is a real benefit to potential investors.

• 7:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so I've got a couple of questions about this. One is, you mentioned Sovereign, right? As everyone knows, I had invested in that, and they were trying to bring a lot of the decentralized financial type applications and have them built on top of Bitcoin and kind of interface with Bitcoin. How much of a thesis do you guys have on the underlying infrastructure of where these types of decentralized financial applications will get built versus you just look at the applications and you're like, hey, they're end gonna end up being a kind of chain agnostic and really the comparison to the historical, you know, way that technology unfolded is right now, everyone is looking at YouTube. Ninety nine point nine percent of people couldn't tell you what the underlying technology of YouTube is. Go to Google. Nobody knows what the tech stack of Google is. They just know they go to an interface,

• 8:24Anthony Pompliano?

  they type in something and Google spits out an answer and they like it and they keep using it. Like, how do you think about that?

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Look, we are basically to your point relatively agnostic. I mean, you're looking at the equivalent of being able to invest in 1994 into Yahoo, Amazon, right? Like, and this space is growing two times faster than the internet, which a lot of people don't understand. And then on top of that, a lot of people are really challenged to get into the space just because, you know, a lot of people are uncomfortable opening a Coinbase account or a Kraken or a Frax or whatever. So what we do is we sort of say to ourselves, look, here's your top 75, top 100 protocols in terms of market cap, in terms of growth. You know, you're seeing a lot of these gaming

• 9:08Speaker 02

  and metaverse protocols enter into that top 75 or top 100. And we try to just be sensible and smart about about launching ETPs in products that people actually really, really have interest. But then on the other arm, it's that VC sort of style of investment. And to your point, you know, why wouldn't you want to take a look at an opportunity for sort of the first ever DeFi protocol based on the Bitcoin chain? You know, will it be the dominant player? I don't know where 10 years is going to take us and I don't know what this ecosystem is going to look like. All I know is that it's going to be one heck of a lot larger than where we are today. And so

• 9:48Speaker 02

  maybe I'm being a little bit political in the way I answer your question, but but agnostic. You know, Solana, we love Ethereum, we love Bitcoin, we love Sovereign, we love. Eventually, we don't know who the winners and losers are ultimately going to be here. It's just making sure that you're exposed to the space in general. And so hopefully that answers the question you had and the way we're thinking about it.

• 10:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, what's fascinating to me is you guys are obviously a publicly traded company that have regulatory bodies that oversee you and your activities. So there's an element of like what you do, you have to put incredible care into and make sure you don't overstep any of those rules. Talk to me about this node business, right? So obviously things like cloud computing, mining, we pretty much know that those are great businesses, they're great from a cash flow perspective. We literally had the CEO of Compass Mining, a Bitcoin mining business on the show yesterday. We haven't talked as much about nodes. What are you guys doing there? What does the economics look like? How do you decide where to do it? When do you refrain from doing it? Just talk to me about that business.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Well, you know, some of the products you wouldn't ever do it for. You know, ultimately, if we launch something like an equity wrapper on AVE and just to be clear, we're not looking at that right now. That's not something where you're necessarily going to petition to run one of the nodes. But the way we look at it is, look, our AUM is taking off. It's growing, you know, 1,000% month-over-month type growth since the beginning of the year. So that's our core business. And as our AUM grows for the underlying protocol that we launch, so for example, Polkadot, our dot product went from, you know, zero to kind of 58, 60 million now. Once you get to a specific level of underlying dot that you have on your balance sheet,

• 11:34Speaker 02

  you can run one of their nodes. And so, you know, our business model is really, really simple. You know, the miners have a real cost center, just in terms of infrastructure and what they have to put in place to actually mine the underlying Ethereum or Bitcoin. We basically have a revenue model that's basically just us and our fixed cost. So our margins are effectively 80, 90%. And so you have that AUM business that really drives our revenue. And the valuation of our company. But then you can layer in these VC returns and these governance returns, which, you know, historically, people have made millions of dollars running these notes, right? Like you have guys who have just sort of accumulated node,

• 12:19Speaker 02

  node management businesses and are turning that into, you know, retirement funds. Many times over. And so we, we just, as our AUM grows in Solana, you know, and once we get into the metaverse, once we get into gaming, once we, we launch some of these other products like Uniswap. You know, we'll, we'll look to, to run nodes on all of them. And you can generate anywhere from one to two million bucks a year in terms of sort of, sort of yield driven, token driven revenues. And if you're doing, like the math that I tell the people is if we get to a billion in AUM, we'll do about 90 to 100 million in revenue. But then you layer in the node management business, you bring in another 10 to 20 million. Then you bring in the VC returns, you bring in another 10 to 20 million.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  And that, that makes for a very, very profitable and handsome return for investors.

• 13:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And talk to me about your balance sheet, right? So we've seen obviously a number of other publicly traded companies. Let's start with kind of the big ones. So you've got MicroStrategy, Square and Tesla. They've gone ahead and they've put anywhere between kind of 2% to 90 plus percent of their balance sheet in Bitcoin. We've seen a number of the miners go ahead that are publicly listed and they're putting Bitcoin mostly, but some Ethereum miners also putting Ethereum on their balance sheets. We also now see public pension funds, things like the Houston firefighters department buying Bitcoin and ETH. What, how do you guys deal with this? Cause you guys are dealing with so many different communities and technologies and assets. Like, how do you think about your balance sheet and managing that?

• 13:48Speaker 02

  So, so like you, the, the public markets are so different than, than like the, the crypto ecosystem. And then obviously the private markets. Our balance sheet is, is really quite robust. We have 17 to 20 million in liquid assets right now. So, so the way you look at it from a public, public company perspective is, you know, are you, are you cash flow positive? We luckily are cash flow positive and we're on basically a trend to be extremely cash flow positive. And, and I would argue are incredibly undervalued right now. Both in Canada and the US on our public listings. So, so our balance sheet, we look at. You know, how much Bitcoin, how much Ethereum, how much Polkadot, how much whatnot do we have?

• 14:32Speaker 02

  We generate all our revenues from either management fees or staking revenues or trading flows. And then really, it's about protecting your shareholders and not diluting your shareholders. And so as we generate more cash flow, one of the, the, I don't know, I, I, we're, we're discussing at the board, whether that cash is better off being reinvested into the underlying protocols. Um, because you know, there's no yield market in the world anymore. And if you can actually take a hundred million in revenue, 90 million in profits, if, if our margins hold true, um, and you can reinvest, you know, 90 million of that into Bitcoin after, you know, your fixed costs and whatnot are paid. And you get exposure to effectively the fastest growing ecosystem and, and investment opportunity in the world.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Then, then you, you, you really have, I don't want to call it incredible leverage, but you, you offer investors just this, this doubling down effect. It's almost like being doubly exposed to that industry because we're already accumulating AUM in the underlying protocols. And as they grow, obviously our AUM will grow and as more people buy our products, our AUM will grow. But then if you can actually, you know, hodl and buy Bitcoin hodl it, buy Ethereum hodl it, then maybe you even get those minor type leverage returns, which, which is something we are thinking about. We just haven't made a decision on it yet.

• 15:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Talk to me about regulation, right? Obviously being a publicly traded company, I think that's the most fascinating part about this entire thing is all the things you're talking about. Most people would be like, oh, there's questions around regulation. You're a publicly traded company. So how do you guys think about regulation, both of yourselves and of some of these products or ecosystems?

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, I think regulation, as I was suggesting earlier, and I, I don't, I suspect your thoughts are probably aligned. I think it's going to be one of the most dominant themes in the crypto space moving forward. Um, it's effectively what the SEC is embarking on. And I think it, it really gives investors a whole other way of looking at crypto, right? Like I'm a, I'm a tradFi guy, right? Like that's where I come from. And I'll be honest with you, I missed the first, you know, seven, eight years, but so did 99% of the rest of the world. If you can actually. Take these protocols that are currently only getting exposure to people who are trading on Coinbase or any of the other exchanges, but if you can actually put them on listed,

• 16:49Speaker 02

  regulated exchanges, you nailed it. That's a huge plus for the regulators. It's a huge plus for the SEC. We're basically in the midst of making a NASDAQ application, which I'm very hopeful will go through very, very shortly. But the SEC is paying really, really close attention as they should because this is a brand-new industry. They did the exact same thing for cannabis psychedelics. They did the exact same thing for the internet when it was basically becoming what we see now as arguably the largest sector people have invested in ever in the history of the capital markets. So yeah, no, regulation is something people need to be really, really aware of. I think it's a major competitive

• 17:30Speaker 02

  advantage for us because, to your point, we've already ticked off those boxes. All the KYC has done. You're dealing with EuroNext or the Nordic Growth Market or the TSX or NASDAQ. So you're actually already two, three steps ahead of some of these other opportunities that are going to have to go through that extreme revision that you're seeing happen right now with the SEC.

• 17:57Anthony Pompliano?

  And then when you start to think about that listing on the NASDAQ, you can explain where you guys are in that process, but obviously we're talking about the Canadian public markets and the US public markets. How do you think about the pros and cons of both of those and why try to cross-list or whatever?

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, look, the NASDAQ is the crown jewel of the tech space in general. And if you look at Hive or Hut or Bitfarms or any of these other companies that have managed to start in Canada and then list on the NASDAQ, there's literally a 20, 30, sometimes 100% lift to the actual valuation because...

• 18:37Speaker 02

  A lot of investors focus primarily on the US market. So Canada would be, you know, that tiny little market and the NASDAQ would be that massive, massive ocean market. You know, getting on that would be, would be really, really beneficial for our company. It gives us exposure to, to tons of other investors because we've been basically stuck on the OTC markets in the US, which, which basically prohibits a lot of US investors from getting exposure to our company. But one of the really interesting data points that I, I don't know a lot of people have thought through, you know, Galaxy is listed in Canada, Voyager Digital, which is, you know, a market darling is listed in Canada. Hive, Hut, all these other companies, a lot of them started off in Canada. And, and yeah,

• 19:22Speaker 02

  that might be a little bit of a detriment just in terms of valuation and moving your, your, your company forward. And then getting on the NASDAQ clearly is, you know, the crown jewel of, of, of sort of global equity listings. And, and literally you just have to look to Hut, who I know you're, you're really familiar with. The Hut went, you know, basically from five, six bucks to 20 bucks. Once they listed on the NASDAQ, it was crazy.

• 19:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Joe, John, what questions do you guys have for Russell?

• 19:47Speaker 03

  Hey, Russell, thanks for coming on. Nice to meet you.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, likewise.

• 19:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. So my question would just be around growth. You guys have obviously grown a lot over, you know, the, the past few months, if not year. I know revenue is up a few hundred percent. AUM is obviously up a lot also. Just talk to me about like the biggest challenges you guys have faced or are faced while going through that growth period.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so really good question. Lots of, lots of sort of different aspects to it. But like, like this company didn't exist in December of last year. So, so we became DeFi and call it January, end of January, beginning of February. And a lot of people wondered why we started on the Nordic growth market with all of our products. That's the NGM, basically this tiny, tiny market in Scandinavia. And the reason why is, and a lot of people aren't aware of this, but, but CoinShares actually started on the Nordic growth market. That's, that's literally, they basically created that company in, in Scandinavia. Our COO, Johan Wattenstrom, who, who by the way, would be an amazing interview for you guys. He like, I think.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  For a few years, he was the largest crypto trader in the world. He started XBT Provider, which is now CoinShares. And so we kind of mimic that process. And for whatever reason, the view in Europe for crypto is completely different than the view in the US for crypto, at least from a regulatory environment. So the long-winded answer to your question is, Europe is incredibly pro crypto. Like, Germany has all sorts of tax incentives put in place for crypto. I don't know why that divergence of thinking is occurring between the SEC and Europe, but it is what it is. And so we're looking to build and grow basically most of our AUM there to start. We're looking to Canada, we're looking to the Middle East.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  But, but, you know, if the past nine months took us from zero to 400 million in AUM in Sweden alone, we're now listing in Frankfurt, we're going to list in Stuttgart, we're about to list on the Euronext, which for all of your viewers is literally the fourth biggest market in the world. You get those products onto those exchanges, if you've gone from zero to 400, just basically in a small Scandinavian country, I really see a world where at 1, 2, maybe even 3 billion in the next couple of years. And if you use my sort of 1 billion equals 100 million in revenue, you can just see how quickly that growth would translate into returns for like a publicly listed equity.

• 22:10Speaker 04

  What's up, Russell? It's John. Nice to meet you.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Hey, how are you? Yeah, likewise, likewise.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  So can you just talk about, what are you most excited about for your company and the industry in general?

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Oh, that's, that's an awesome question. Look, like I mentioned, I'm a TradFi guy. I was literally a gold CEO. And my view was, look, gold is going to the moon. I have a master's in economics, started my PhD in economics. You know, what the US is doing in terms of fiat money printing and basically the destruction of the value of the US dollar is just bonkers to me. But, you know, it is what it is. It's not going to change. And, and so now you have this sector, and this is where I'm getting directly to your question, this is maybe the most exciting investment opportunity. Our generation, your generation, you know, many generations will see.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  It's the chance to go back to 1994 and buy, you know, 10, 20, 100 grand of Amazon at pennies to where it's trading at now. So the most exciting thing for me is just going from this sort of staid, relatively boring sector called gold into, you know, an industry where I get to talk to the likes of you guys. I mean, like, it's an honor being on this podcast and having the background I have and yet getting to see people who have just so much interest in making things better and sort of disintermediating this global banking system that has just made gazillions, you

• 23:41Speaker 02

  know, and so to be a part of changing the entire financial ecosystem is, you know, beyond exciting. So it's just every day picking up the phone, talking to people like you, talking to investors, looking at new protocols, looking at what like, you know, AVE is doing in the lending world, you know, looking at what's happening in the metaverse, you know, we're about to launch a metaverse and gaming basket and my, you know, I would have thought a year ago that our Bitcoin and Ethereum baskets, ETPs would have been like the growth market for the company, but I have a feeling that the metaverse gaming basket is going to be our top performing ETP. So this is changing every day.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  You guys must see like, people like me, you know, geniuses who created some of these protocols who are now billionaires. It's just, it's changing. It's so exciting. It's so interesting being able to do this on a listed market as well. Yeah, so it's just basically putting all of it together and just being involved in such a transformative industry.

• 24:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Russell, you guys are in the process of launching a number of these ETPs. One, talk about what your ideas there are, but also to explain like why the public market structure for those types of properties are so advantageous in your opinion? And who are the types of investors that you anticipate buying that stuff versus maybe participating in the private market, you know, aspect of this industry?

• 25:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, you know, as I was remarking before, I mean, clearly Bitcoin adoption is going up, clearly Ethereum adoption is going up, clearly the TVL and all of these DeFi protocols is going up. But, but even with that in context, literally, the majority of the world can't or isn't comfortable with opening up these unusual trading accounts that you have to do for for a Coinbase or Kraken or whatever. So, so the real value proposition for us is, is like bringing a protocol like Solana or Polkadot or Anthony Dant, to your question, like, we're going to be launching top 10 DeFi, top 10 DeFi yield. We're just finalizing basically baskets, which is going to be something new.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  So it's almost like a, it's almost like a diversified ETF that people can actually invest in and get, get exposure to, you know, gaming and Metaverse all in one, and then top 10 DeFi all in one, top 10 DeFi yield all in one. And so it's, it's, it's, it's taking, you know, Solana that I think everybody should have in their portfolio, taking Ethereum that everyone should have in their portfolio, and just simplifying it for the investors so that they can actually buy it on a listed regulated exchange through, you know, the US example would be like through your, your Charles Schwab or your TD Ameritrade account, just, just that in Europe. So you're actually, you're actually opening the doors even more for these nascent protocols

• 26:40Speaker 02

  to be adopted and, and understood by, by the general investing public, which, you know, is the biggest market in the world.

• 26:49Anthony Pompliano?

  And then in terms of conversations that you have with a lot of these institutional type investors or people who are interested in public market companies, what's been the general tone and how has that changed over the last year or so as you've been having those conversations?

• 27:02Speaker 02

  It's literally been incredible because even institutions like I grew up as an NST sales guy, right? Institutional trading, ultimately corporate finance, then created my own broker dealer, actually in Canada, that's become a really big player in the Canadian capital markets. This is so innovative, so transformative, so crazy because the institutions, when they first create their fund prospectuses or they're offering them randoms, they basically state where they can invest and none of them 10 years ago thought that Coinbase was even

• 27:45Speaker 02

  going to exist other than a few really, really very risk-taking and opportunistic and smart people who created it. And so now what you're seeing is institutions saying, how do I get long Bitcoin without being able to open an account on Coinbase or on Kraken? How do I get long Ethereum? How do I get long Solana? And so you're seeing hedge funds that pop up that invest on all these alternative trading exchanges, but then you also have the biggest part of that investing community that can't. And so having them, them being able to see and invest into a Solana or even just DeFi, the parent company, like we had an institution offshore that basically called us one day

• 28:28Speaker 02

  and just was like, we're going to buy 2.5 million shares because they actually see this as a way of getting long without having to effectively go to all their shareholders or go to all of their creators of their funds or their hedge fund committees to actually rewrite their offering memorandum or their prospectus to allow them to start investing on these alternative exchanges. They can now do it through us. And I think honestly, that's going to be a real dominant theme. You saw Invesco, I think it was you guys who actually tweeted it, Invesco is starting to launch DeFi protocol. ETPs, ETFs, you know, the, the, the market's gonna get crowded, so to speak. But if you're looking at a market that's growing two times faster than the internet, I don't care how many people get involved, you know, today, tomorrow,

• 29:13Speaker 02

  it's not going to be able to keep up with the demand that, that you're going to see from the, the traditional equity investor, basically jumping on board to all these protocols.

• 29:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Correct. Where can we send people to find you on the internet or find out more about the company?

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the website is D E F I dot tech, W W W dot D F I dot tech. Our US symbol is D E F T F. For the NASDAQ, when we get on it, it's D E F T. And in Canada, it's D E F I dot N E O. But that's the website. You got it right there. If you guys, like, I'm a little bit of an unusual CEO. I actually answer almost all of the, the incoming investor relations questions myself, just because I, I think you should be involved with your investors. So you can also reach me through that as well, which is, I think, I R at D F I dot tech.

• 30:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome, man. Listen, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I think it's, uh, it's fascinating that as a publicly traded company, you, you're kind of navigating so much of this and obviously doing a, a great job. And I've enjoyed working with you guys and hopefully we'll continue to do more of it.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, likewise, likewise. And thank you, guys. Have, have an awesome Thursday and a great weekend.

• 30:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks, Russell.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  See you guys later.