Pod Insights The Pomp Podcast #679 Play to Earn Gaming w/ Gabby Dizon About this episode Gabby Dizon is the co-founder of Yield Guild Games, a play-to-earn gaming guild, bringing players together to earn via blockchain-based economies. They consider themselves the settlers of new worlds in the metaverse. In this conversation, we discuss blockchain-based games, DAOs, sub-DAOs, yield generating digital assets, economic impact in various populations, and YGG’s future vision. ======================= Choice is a new self-directed IRA product that I'm really excited about. If you are listening to this, you are likely part of the 7.1 million bitcoin owners who have retirement accounts with dollars in them, but not bitcoin. I was in that situation too. Now you can actually buy real Bitcoin in your retirement account. I'm talking about owning your private keys and using tax-advantaged dollars to do it too. Absolute game changer. https://www.retirewithchoice.com/pomp =======================
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:02 Anthony Pompliano? What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Gabby Dyson is the co-founder of Yield Guild Games, a play to earn gaming guild, bringing players together to earn via blockchain-based economies. They consider themselves the settlers of new worlds in the metaverse. In this conversation, we discuss blockchain-based games, DAOs, sub-DOWs, yield-generating digital assets, economic impact in various populations, and YGG's future vision. I really enjoyed this conversation with Gabby, and I learned a ton. I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is BlockFi. BlockFi provides financial products for crypto
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2:35 Speaker 01 Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.
2:58 Anthony Pompliano? All right, guys. What's up? Bang, bang. I've got Gabby here. Thank you so much for doing this.
3:03 Speaker 03 Hey, Bob. Thanks for having me.
3:04 Anthony Pompliano? For sure. I'm fascinated by what you're building with YGG. But before we get into that, I want to first start with kind of how you discovered blockchain technology and smart contracts. And what initially caught your attention as to why you thought these could be so, you know, kind of innovative moving forward?
3:21 Speaker 03 Sure. So I come from the game industry. Been making games for almost 20 years now. And during the course of making games, we came across Ethereum or and smart contracts or the concept of programmable money. And we thought that, you know, this was an interesting way to, yeah, basically put in money into games. And we actually started experimenting on this back in 2017. And while we were doing our experiments on smart contracts, Crypticities came out in 2017 and popularized the non-fungible token. So the idea that you could put a unique asset on the blockchain and have it represent something, for example, a game item. That was really mind blowing at that time. And I thought like this.
4:06 Speaker 03 This would be the future of games.
4:08 Anthony Pompliano? When you think about those NFTs, non-fungible tokens, elaborate a little bit more in terms of why is it so important that you can actually have a unique asset on a blockchain? And then in the gaming world, be able to have the asset kind of separate from the game?
4:22 Speaker 03 Sure. So there are typically two kinds of assets, a fungible token, which could be a coin like Bitcoin or Ether, or non-fungible token that represents basically one one asset, one single asset. So it could be, for example, a sword or a shield in a game could be a piece of armor. It could be a resource that you collect. And this is important because when you're in games, you're typically interacting with different kinds of assets. So you you might be buying a house in a game to make it your headquarters. You might be an inventory with like armor and weapons. So having these represented as non-fungible tokens and then put on the blockchain means that
5:05 Speaker 03 it is now the owner of the wallet that owns them, not the game itself. So in effect, the assets lives outside the game. It's owned by the by the person who owns them. And now they can trade it, they own it, they can pass it around to anyone as they wish.
5:21 Anthony Pompliano? When you think about how this gets put into application, Axie Infinity is probably the best example we have so far as a blockchain based game that has really kind of hit some critical mass. I believe you started playing this game in 2018. Explain a little bit about what the game is and then how it has taken the country of the Philippines by a storm.
5:41 Speaker 03 Yeah, so Axie Infinity is a is a pet battle game, basically. And you have these digital pets called axes. You need three of them in a team, and these three axes are NFTs. So they are unique, non-fungible tokens that you either have to buy from the marketplace or create yourself via like in-game breeding. And so when you play with Axie Infinity, these axes have different abilities. And you go into a battle with another player like you do in a Pokemon battle, and then you pit these abilities against each other. And then when you win, you win this in-game currency called S L P or Smooth Love Potion.
6:22 Speaker 03 The Smooth Love Potion is used as a currency or an ingredient to breed to Axis to create a new one. But what's interesting about it is that it can be synced to your wallet as a crypto token. So now this token that represents something that has utility inside the game can be traded amongst people.
6:42 Anthony Pompliano? When you think about how that works, it has now gone to, I think, over a million daily active users. Uh, the game itself is paying out millions of dollars a month. And it seems like people all around the world have figured out that the play-to-earn model is here to stay. How important are N F Ts in that? Like, could you have the exact same game without the actual items in the game being separate? Could you just have kind of a closed walled garden? Or is it really essential that they're N F Ts?
7:16 Speaker 03 So play-to-earn has existed in some sense in the past, but they've always been kind of gray market against terms of service. So in games like World of Warcraft or RuneScape, they've always been kind of a black market to kind of buy and sell accounts, assets. But uh, yeah, like you couldn't do them trustlessly and it's prone to scams. And it was like prohibited by the developer. So if they were, they caught you doing it, they could just uh, block your account and seize your items. Now, when these assets are N F Ts, that means you're allowing for a trustless way for this trading to happen, which decreases the risk of fraud, for example. And people can trust that if I trade one asset for another, we'll have the exchange of value.
8:01 Speaker 03 I will get crypto, it might be ether, it might be another currency, and then I get um, the N F T in exchange. And now I'm using this N F T to do something inside the game and earn a token that has value. In Axis case, it's S L P. And that is kind of what uh, what gives play-to- to earn its underlying economy.
8:22 Anthony Pompliano? And obviously, when you were playing Axie, you came across this problem. And that's what led to the inception of YGG or Yield Guild Games. Explain what the problem was and then how you guys solved it.
8:33 Speaker 03 Sure. So it was around this time last year and we were still in the middle of the first COVID lockdown here in the Philippines. And a lot of people basically just lost their jobs and are stuck at home with no income, nothing to do. So people in the rural Philippines were searching for a way to make money online. These are ordinary people, not crypto enthusiasts. They found this game, Axie Infinity, downloaded it, downloaded a wallet and then just started playing. And then when they started playing and earning money, they realized that they could actually make more money, significantly more than the jobs that they were laid off from. So people started coming into the game from the Philippines and other countries as well, across Southeast Asia and Latin America.
9:18 Speaker 03 But the problem was that like a lot of people wanted to come in and play the game. Not everyone could afford the axes. Last year, a team of three good axes was maybe around 500 bucks. Now it's probably somewhere between like one to $2,000. So there's a lot of people who want to do play to earn, but can't afford the upfront asset cost to be able to do so. And that's where YGG comes in. We offer what is called in the community, a scholarship program. What it is, is actually a lending program where we're the ones that invest in the axes and other assets needed for people playing the game. And then we lend them out to the player community that wants to play and earn, but can't afford to do so.
10:00 Speaker 03 So we're matching the capital and organization and technology that we have with the community's time and effort to learn and play the game and earn money.
10:09 Anthony Pompliano? So a player comes in, they want to play Axie Infinity. They don't have the money to buy the initial items needed to play the game. They come to you, you say, hey, we have those items. We'll give you a scholarship. The way the scholarship works is you lend them the three axes that they need to play the game. And in kind of response to that, there's a revenue split.
10:30 Anthony Pompliano? Of the revenue that they generate within the game. Walk me through how that revenue split works. And then maybe we can talk a little bit about this idea of a community manager as well.
10:39 Speaker 03 Sure. So the revenue split is 70, 20, 10. The player or the scholar takes 70% of the revenue. The community manager takes 20% and us as the guild, we take 10%. And the community manager is the one in each local community that recruits and trains players from across the world to play the game. So you know, there's a little bit of an onboarding process when playing a blockchain game. Most people who are playing have the gaming skill, but have no idea what blockchain is, how to use a wallet and all of that. So the idea is that with the onboarding, you start with the gaming part, which a lot of people have. You start playing and then accruing SLP. And then along the way, the community manager is held there
11:21 Speaker 03 to support their own community and teaches them how to play the game properly, how to set up a wallet, how to keep it safe, how to like offboard the SLP they earn back into like their home currency. So that's what the community managers do. They are part of the kind of wider community of YGG. They're selected for their skill in managing and they're given access to our platform. So they can give, offer the scholarship to their players.
11:48 Anthony Pompliano? And when you think about the structure here, I know that you've described this in the past. There's a little bit of like a Berkshire Hathaway style, along with maybe like an Uber or a Lyft, right? You've got this legal structure of YGG where there's essentially a holding company or a DAO. And then you have these sub DAOs or the equivalent of subsidiaries. And then you've got kind of a gig economy component to where people can come in and they can play when they want. And there's kind of a revenue split. So is this fair to kind of say that the more things change, the more they stay the same in terms of the legal structure? But it's really using the internet and kind of this gig economy interest that people have. To really make this work?
12:28 Speaker 03 Yeah, so if you look at the structure and the business models, I don't think it's very different from what you see in the real world, except that all of it is very crypto native in that YGG is a DAO instead of a corporation. There are sub DAOs that contain assets and have their own wallet. And the tokens represent ownership of, I guess, and governance of whatever is in that DAO or sub DAO. And now there are activities that the sub DAO does that maybe that people can govern via token ownership on like, what will we do? What assets are we going to buy?
13:07 Anthony Pompliano? Got it. And so when you start to think about YGG, you have obviously Axie Infinity. I believe there's 12 other sub DAOs that you have currently. And each one of these is a different game that the sub DAO is focused on. Is the model the exact same for each game where it's the 70, 20, 10? Or does the economics change based on the game and various kind of inputs?
13:31 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's different depending on each game. So there are some sub DAOs that are organized around the assets of a game. For example, League of Kingdoms is such a sub DAO. And we are in the process of creating one for Splinterlands. We're also forming some sub DAOs that are based on people who are organized in a particular region around the world. So for example, it may be Southeast Asia or India or South America. And the idea of these sub DAOs, think of them as like the regional subsidiaries of an Uber or a Lyft. These are people who have the playbook of how we operate on a global level and then kind of tweak this so that it's relevant for a particular region. So these sub DAO may have their own game assets.
14:13 Speaker 03 And then there are local game managers and then they have a localized approach to acquiring users. Creating blockchain marketing.
14:20 Anthony Pompliano? What's fascinating to me about this DAO sub DAO structure is that each sub DAO, one, you're optimizing so that you don't get 50, 100,000 people inside of a guild, right? Having smaller numbers is important from a community standpoint. But also too is my understanding is each one of these has their own P and L, their own wallet, et cetera. So maybe talk a little bit more about how you think of the structure and why you guys have chosen sub DAOs? And then how those sub DAOs, what are you optimizing for in each one? And why hand over so much autonomy to the sub DAO around the P and L, the wallet and all of that?
14:55 Speaker 03 Right, absolutely. So the basic unit of the DAO that generates value are players that are basically playing a game. And when these players are organized to play a game, like you'd feel lost in a guild of 100,000 people. That wouldn't feel interesting or fun because you're not part of kind of a small tight knit community. So each community is kind of split into their own sub communities or sub DAOs. So for example, Axie Infinity have 19 managers, which are basically 19 sub guilds that have their own kind of structure and leadership and how they do things. So we may be kind of connected from the technology and the assets that we have.
15:39 Speaker 03 And maybe on a cultural level on what YGG stands for. But a lot of these guilds actually operate on their own and have really their own ways of doing things and their own different parts of the world.
15:51 Anthony Pompliano? When you think about the holding companies, we talked a little bit about the sub DAOs and why you do that. The holding company really is giving those that hold any sort of economic interest in the holding company, a broad-based exposure, it feels like, to all blockchain-based games. But my understanding is that the holding company is not going to choose to set up a sub DAO and participate or hold assets that are not yield generating, right? So the yield generating part is really important here. So maybe talk a little bit about that holding company and how you view that and the decisions that you have to make or the trade-offs that you You guys are choosing to pursue.
16:29 Speaker 03 Sure. So we take a look at a lot of games that have NFTs in them. And we only invest in the ones that generate yield. And that's because we're not meant to be trading. We actually are not set up to buy and sell NFTs. We want to be able to invest in NFTs. And basically, as long as there is a game environment around them that generates yield, we want to keep it forever. We want to turn it over to our player base and we want them earning yield and earning an income from it for as long as possible. So over time, we want to invest in basically the greatest collection of yield-producing NFT assets in the metaverse, meaning these games and virtual worlds that have NFTs,
17:13 Speaker 03 that produce some kind of cash flow via tokens. These are the ones that we're super interested in.
17:17 Anthony Pompliano? Right now, you guys are paying out six figures a week. You know, in some cases, one to $2 million per month to the players. So obviously, this is working to some degree. How do you measure success moving forward? Is it the number of scholars? Is it the amount of assets? Is it how much you pay out? Maybe there's a combination of things. Like, what are those KPIs, you know, moving forward for you all?
17:42 Speaker 03 Yeah, so we take a look first at how big the community is. Right now, it's over 60,000 people. Then we take a look at the number of scholars, which is super important because the scholars are the people who would not be able to join the community because they don't have the means to buy these assets. And we're the ones that are serving these assets. So this is very important so that we can onboard more people into YGG and into these play-to-earn games. And then from these scholars, we take a look at how much revenue they're producing in SLP. Might be the same for other games. And in the near term, we're more interested in player engagement than revenue because sometimes it takes some time for games
18:26 Speaker 03 to figure out a revenue model that really works. For example, Axie, it was 2.5 years of iteration before the game started really taking off. And before it did, we'd already put up a A significant position in a number of axes, a number of land that we had. So games that have like really good engagement with the players. We start investing in their assets and we, and the hope is that as they take off, we already have a good position. And because we see the community actively playing these games, we're able to detect immediately if some of these games hold promise and invest additional funds into buying assets of these games before they take off.
19:06 Anthony Pompliano? One area that I think you personally have really opened my eyes to is this blending of kind of work and games. And you've walked me through in the past, this idea of like, we already have the lofi examples of these virtual jobs or the virtual economy. But one of the things that you've also said is everything's going to converge together. Games, Web three, DeFi, NFTs, et cetera. Can you elaborate on that idea at all in terms of how this all kind of comes together?
19:35 Speaker 03 So now you're looking at, there's a lot of innovation in DeFi. And I think of DeFi as a gamified form of finance. And you're looking at play to earn, which are basically like financial business models being put inside games. And when we talk about the idea of a metaverse, we're thinking of like a interconnected virtual world where people can come in and basically live their lives online. Like I can go to a virtual bank, I can play a game, I can lend my sword to another player. And we're obviously very early into this like ready player one idea of a metaverse. But the individual components are already there.
20:17 Speaker 03 There are like DeFi elements that you can work with. There are NFT based games you can play. You can start collecting yourselves via a DAO and doing these different things together. So I think that as time goes by, these kind of blend into what We call it ID of a metaverse.
20:36 Anthony Pompliano? And obviously, there are all kinds of data points we could point to that this is already working. Axie Infinity, the stats that I have here, are there are more wallets for Axie Infinity in the Philippines than credit cards. Axie is obviously doing a better job banking the unbanked, but also there's more remittance from Hong Kong and Singapore to the Philippines via Axie than from Hong Kong or Singapore. And Axie has now become the eighth largest remittance platform on an annualized basis. Does this just mean that we're getting the blending of fintech, crypto, gaming? It's all coming together and it doesn't actually matter if somebody is moving Axies,
21:19 Anthony Pompliano? they're moving dollars or some other asset. It just is a digital file that represents some value to both the sender and the receiver. And that's kind of where the world's going to move to?
21:31 Speaker 03 I think so. The way to think about, I would say, digital economy via blockchain is that it's truly becoming borderless and now there are certain ways that are built to create and transfer value, be they games, be they lending protocols, be they remittances that are blockchain based. And this leaps across the current financial system that is really built up on basically national boundaries and kind of like regulation that is very localized. So I think that as more and more of the value moves online to digital economy via blockchain,
22:13 Speaker 03 we're going to see value seamlessly transfer basically from like one point of the world to another via whatever you're doing, be it like interacting with a game, buying an NFT, being in DeFi.
22:25 Anthony Pompliano? Let's bring it back to YGG. And one of the things you've told me in the past is that YGG is building a playbook for scaling this over and over again in terms of how to recruit players, how to educate them, how to give them the tools, how the capital relationship works, and then also providing infrastructure. Is this something that is only available from a yield generation standpoint and that kind of repeatable process to play to earn games? Or can you actually bring this to other things in the digital or virtual economy that have yield but might not necessarily? Surely be a game themselves.
22:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, so for example, if you look at some of the the B five protocols, they are some form of game already. They're just not presented as as such. If you do lending and you get an achievement. Um, in a way, it's also a game. This is, I guess, a gamified version of finance. So I think what we're doing with Play to Earn is not unique to games itself. You're seeing things like uh, like uh, read to earn, um, invest to earn, basically incentivize mechanics where you can interact with different um, protocols and then earn some kind of value within the protocol itself.
23:40 Anthony Pompliano? I previously asked you uh, what one of your goals was, and you told me that you really felt it was important that people could start believing and understanding uh, the path to making a living playing video games. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
23:54 Speaker 03 Yeah, so there's tons of gamers around the world, probably at least two billion gamers. And we've been conditioned by society to believe that the skill that we've learned over time, starting when we were children, is basically worthless because there is no financial value to it. And what we're discovering with Play to Earn is that there is actual financial value to being a gamer, except that the player themselves have never captured this value. It's always gone to someone else, a developer, the publisher, the retailer, um, the app store. And what Play to Earn is discovering is that if I'm coming out there as a player, as a community member, and giving value to a game by my presence and by my contributions,
24:38 Speaker 03 I can actually receive value back. And that is such a, I would say, mind blowing moment in that like moms have been yelling at their kids for the last thirty years to stop, stop playing games and do something useful. And as it turns out now, their moms are yelling at their kids to finish the daily quests in Axie Infinity, so that they have their daily earnings.
24:57 Anthony Pompliano? When you think about the structure that you're pursuing, uh, you are probably, if somebody asked me, who is pioneering the the kind of tip of the spear of innovation around DAOs and gaming? Virtual economies and new types of work. How do you see this evolving over time, specifically around the DAO structure? And the ability to kind of organize and leverage both intellectual capital on individuals, but also financial capital and resources?
25:25 Speaker 03 DAOs are super interesting. I think it's the evolution of the of the concept of a corporation. I feel like a corporation with equity is the analog or the kind of, yeah, the analog structure of how people coordinate to produce value. And DAOs are the software or the digital version of how to do it. Now it's much, much simpler to organize. And for example, put up a DAO that has a wallet that can contain assets. It might be you have, for example, a stable coin to buy an asset with. And then you have a community that may have tokens that represent membership or ownership. And it's so easy to spin these up.
26:07 Speaker 03 You can, like anyone from around the world can participate in a DAO and then communicate with each other on how to collectively work together to generate value. So DAOs are, I think, like the next really big thing. Once you have the DeFi and NFTs, because DAOs are the ones that organize people around all of these different activities.
26:28 Anthony Pompliano? What are the risks around DAOs? Or what do you look at as the downsides of what I think most people are relatively bullish or cautiously optimistic about? But what are the downsides or risks?
26:39 Speaker 03 Well, it's still very new. I don't think that there are, for example, legal protections that are, I would say, established as there are with equity corporations. How they sit in the real world, like are DAOs an LLC? Are they a company? What kind of corporation is it? Those are not very set yet. So, yeah, we're still operating in a very gray space as it is brand new. And these things are still. Being defined as we speak.
27:09 Anthony Pompliano? And then for you personally, what has been the biggest surprise since you started Yield Guild Games and kind of risen to, you know, this position where everyone's looking and saying, wow, that's really cool. That's really interesting how they've built that. What's been the biggest surprise?
27:24 Speaker 03 The biggest surprise really has like how much of the power of a DAO like really comes from its player community. Of course, you have the founders, you have the team that are creating value by creating a product or service that people will use. But the power of a DAO really emanates from its community. And the more you empower it, the more you give the community ownership, the stronger the network effects become. You don't really see this in companies because there aren't, there traditionally haven't been network effects around, for example, stock ownership. It's only very recently in, for example, what we've seen with Tesla or with Wall Street Bets, their collective ownership of a company has
28:06 Speaker 03 given rise to a network effect. And in DAOs, this is kind of very inherent to the structure of it. And that's, that's a very powerful concept.
28:14 Anthony Pompliano? And then as you look forward, what is your kind of pitch to people who potentially are interested in playing a game or could become kind of a guild member or a scholar? Is there any, you know, kind of message that you have for those individuals?
28:28 Speaker 03 So the pitch is that a lot of people think that, you know, play is fun and work isn't fun. What we're saying is that in the metaverse, there's a lot of things that are there for you that could be fun for you and also make you money, right? It's always almost, people have always thought of it as mutually exclusive, or maybe there's just a very select few number of people in the world who are both doing work that is meaningful and having fun and getting paid for it at the same time. I think crypto and the metaverse play to earn actually opens up the creator economy, meaning people that are using their unique skills to earn a living by themselves, make money and find meaning in what they do as well.
29:10 Speaker 03 Because there's just so many options for people and you can find what works for you, where your skills Have value and how you can get paid for it.
29:19 Anthony Pompliano? Where can we send people to learn more about YGG or find you on the internet? This is absolutely fascinating. There's so many people who are interested in it, but where should we send them?
29:27 Speaker 03 discord.gg/ YGG, the Discord community is where you can learn about all the different games that we're playing. Twitter.com/ Yield Guild is where you can find our announcements.
29:40 Anthony Pompliano? And from a Discord perspective, what happens in Discord around these DAOs and sub DAOs that may be people who aren't used to the Discord community or ecosystem? What would they not know if they went into the Discord?
29:53 Speaker 03 So it might be a little overwhelming at first. You go into the Discord and then there's maybe 30 different games that people are talking about. There's different community events. For example, people are live streaming their games. People are just hanging out. Sometimes there's even Karaoke Night on the Discord. But it's a place for people to basically find their tribe. Are you gonna play Axie as a scholar? Are you there as an esports player? Do you want to know about breeding? Or maybe you're interested in League of Kingdoms or Spinterlands or Zedrun? Do you want to trade assets with other people? So the Guild Discord is there to really find what you want to do in this play-to-earn world.
30:37 Anthony Pompliano? And in terms of following you, Twitter is the best place?
30:40 Speaker 03 Yeah, twitter.com/GABUSCH. That's me.
30:45 Anthony Pompliano? Awesome, man. Well, listen, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I am just absolutely blown away, I think, by the DAO and sub DAO structure and what you're doing with Yield Guild Games. It seems to be a really interesting way to get more people involved, to help finance some of this play-to-earn, but also still stay in line with a lot of what I would consider timeless investing principles around yield generation and cash flow. So it'll be fun to watch to see what you guys do in the future, and we'll have to do this again.
31:13 Speaker 03 Thanks for having me, bump.
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