#636 A Bitcoin Skeptic Asks Pomp The Hard Questions - Darren Rovell

Darren Rovell is a sports business analyst who works for The Action Network. He previously worked for ESPN. Darren is also an avid sports memorabilia collector, along with various alternative assets. In this conversation, we discuss bitcoin, decentralization, value of autographs, and Darren asks Pomp various hard questions about bitcoin. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= Cosmos is building the Internet of Blockchains, marking a new era of interoperability, scalability, and usability. The free flow of assets and data between blockchains with bridges to Ethereum and Bitcoin will unleash the potential of DeFi, NFTs, and much more. Dive into Cosmos at cosmos.network/pomp ======================= Matrixport, Asia’s fastest growing digital asset platform with $10 billion in assets under management and custody, it offers one-stop crypto financial solutions including fixed income, DeFi in 1-click, structured products, Cactus Custody™, spot OTC as well as lending. You can earn from high single digit with fixed income to high double digit yield with their Dual Currency Product. If you hold crypto and look for yield, this is the app you don’t wanna miss out. Go download the Matrixport App and enjoy a welcome offer of 30% APY on USDC here: https://invest.matrixport.com/en

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Darren Rovell is a sports business analyst who works for the Action Network. He previously worked for ESPN. Darren is also an avid sports memorabilia collector, along with various alternative assets. In this conversation, we discuss Bitcoin, decentralization, the value of autographs, and then Darren asks me various hard questions about Bitcoin. Make sure you listen through the whole thing to see, does Darren go from skeptic to Bitcoin holder? Before we get into this episode, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First

• 0:43Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:27Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:13Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:57Anthony Pompliano?

  to miss. Go download the Matrix Port app by going to invest.matrixport.com, or you can go and search in the App Store. Again, go download the app or go to invest.matrixport.com. All right, let's get in this episode with Darren. I hope you guys enjoy.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:38Anthony Pompliano?

  We got Darren Rovell, the infamous and the famous Darren Rovell, coming on the Best Business Show to get wild with us. Darren, what's going on, man?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  What's up, guys? How are you?

• 3:49Anthony Pompliano?

  We're great. How are you?

• 3:50Speaker 02

  I am doing very well. What's up, my man Joe? How are you?

• 3:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Good. How are you? Thanks for coming on, Darren. We appreciate it, man.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  I heard. I do my work only the night before, but I also do my work. I've listened to the entire show. So I heard your reference to the passing of the torch. No, I will not retire, but I will. I will give Joe credit. He is a hard worker. His threads have obviously resonated on Twitter. He's been among the fastest-growing guys on Twitter in a medium that has not grown that much. And so I give him a lot of credit. We... Have been in covering the business of sports. I've been covering business sports for 21 years. It's a huge business and I haven't had enough competition. So in a friendly way, I welcome young Joe.

• 4:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Darren, should Joe put out a breaking tweet right now? Breaking Darren Rovell is not retiring?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  I, you know what? If Twitter had the dislike button, that would, that would get slammed.

• 4:52Speaker 03

  Darren, Darren sent me, Darren and I were DMing back and forth the other day, talking about a story in sports business and he sent me an article and the date on it, it came out Darren wrote it when I was in like third grade.

• 5:06Anthony Pompliano?

  I loved it. It was great.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  It's great when you say, you know, hey, well, these athletes are finally getting paid in college. You know, I asked Carmelo Anthony in 2003. I mean, it's good in that way. But then, you know, when you think of when you Google and you, and you're like, oh my God, this story from 2001, you are on 20 years now. And I will say, I'm not retiring, but social media over the past 10 years has made me a very tired man in general to wake up every morning and Joe knows the exhaustion. Wake up every morning, ready to fight.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  To do that, to do that for a decade is, you know, is really tiring.

• 5:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Darren, can you tell us just the quick 30 second version? How did you get into reporting on business and money kind of behind sports? Like you, when I was growing up, you were the guy, right? You were the, the legend that knew all the, everything about money. You knew all the players, everything. And you'd go on SportsCenter or other platforms and they would just turn to you and say, Darren, tell us about the money. How did you get into that?

• 6:09Speaker 02

  So I always loved business. I love sports. I love business and I didn't want to toil in a small market. I thought it was remarkable that no one was talking about the business of sports, yet it was a hundred, hundreds of millions of dollars business. So I started a sports business radio show at Northwestern and I quickly found out that athletes, everyone wants to talk to them and they frankly don't want to talk to you for the most part. Whereas business people. The CEOs and everyone behind the scenes of the business of sports. I mean, you you asked Drew Rosenhaus one question. There's your show. It's a full hour. Um, so they want to talk. And so when ESPN came to campus, I presented them with the idea of, you know, you not only have to be the worldwide leader in

• 6:54Speaker 02

  sports, you need to be the worldwide leader in sports business. And it was the internet. It was 2000. They gave they gave this young kid a shot.

• 7:02Anthony Pompliano?

  That's awesome. Uh, let's go through the collections first. You told me that you have a large money collection. I'm not really sure what that means. And then

• 7:10Speaker 02

  I think it's funny. I think this is funny because you deal in money not being seen, right? Like, so it's funny that I have a check collection. So

• 7:20Anthony Pompliano?

  That's why I think it's funny, too.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  So, so five years ago, I went to a show, a National Sports Collectors Convention, and a guy handed me a bunch of checks and I had never collected a check before. And, uh, and, and he said, uh, they're all the same amount of money. And I was like, how does that make sense? Like, if it's like Denzel Washington paying for Hertz Rent-A-Car, how is that the same amount of money as Denzel Washington paying for his Lakers courtside seats? As a guy who loves the story, if there's a better story, why wouldn't it be more money if it had that greater story? So I, people collected checks just because they knew that the signature was more authentic because it's unlikely to forge a

• 8:03Speaker 02

  check. Uh, I started collecting checks because I love the story. So I'm going to show you a couple here and hopefully

• 8:10Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, let's do it.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Guys can see it. All right. Uh, okay. Hold on. Let's get

• 8:14Anthony Pompliano?

  The first National City Bank of New York?

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, of New York. Yeah, it's, it's John F. God, these lights are horrible. Hold on. We got it. We're gonna move the lights a little bit here. Uh, so, so this is John F. Kennedy paying for his Washington Post subscription three months before he became president.

• 8:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow. How'd you get this one?

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Uh, there were 13 JFK checks that are known, and this was the one that I had my eye on for a while over the last two or three years, went to auction and I, I, I bought it. Uh, this is also, this is a great one. I think you'll like this. I don't know. God.

• 8:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep, there you go.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  So this is Walt Disney paying a quarter of his taxes in 1962.

• 8:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow, $10,000.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was basically at $43,000, $44,000 in 1962. And that signature is amazing. So I love that one. Then I wanted to get a Babe Ruth check and I spoke to a guy who had access to these things. And I said, okay, I need one of three things. I need him paying a prostitute, eating too much, or drinking too much.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  And the guy luckily did find me a check where Babe Ruth was at least buying alcohol. It's the Park Circle Liquor Shops, which is still on 38th and Madison. $502 in 1940, which is about $13,000 worth of alcohol. And that's a nice Babe Ruth. And then I'll quickly show you. I don't want to spend a whole time on this because I want to understand Bitcoin from you and I want to ask you some challenging questions. Or at least what I think are challenging, maybe not for you. As I mentioned, this is the, this is.

• 10:01Anthony Pompliano?

  LA Lakers?

• 10:03Speaker 02

  LA Lakers. It's Denzel Washington paying for his Lakers courtside seats. The first year of the Staples Center in 1999 when they won the title. You know, then it just goes on. Joe Montana paying for his sophomore year apartment in Notre Dame. You get the Joseph C. Montana, not likely to get that. Are you guys Boston guys or no?

• 10:27Anthony Pompliano?

  No, we're New York Giants fans, best football team in the world.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  All right. Okay. So we got, we got, this is, this is, this is Jackie Robinson paying for the rent check for the apartment he was in when he broke the color barrier.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  So Darren, how many items do you have? How much is it all worth? And where do you keep all this stuff? Is it all like, I don't want to.

• 10:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Under his bed.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  No. So I, I never say how much it's worth, although I did enjoy the question that you asked. Does Jeff Bezos know how much he's worth? And I would, I would agree that the answer is no. I would, I would want to know how. How close he would be if if we had the number and he were to guess. But so I I do know I keep a database of what I have, what it's worth now. There are very few things in my house, so don't try to go rob my house. There there's a there's a gun safe bolted. But I had this is interesting. I mean, when you're looking for storage of high end items. It's difficult, you know, there's there are I have I have a lot of stuff at an art storage.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  Facility. You know, I just got you just have to know where to go. And sometimes I have to pull things or. But I I kind of like to see things. So I go visit these places and take them out. It's not like I'm putting it in a. Safety deposit box in a bank and saying, I know I have it.

• 11:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Are we talking hundreds of items, thousands, tens of thousands?

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Uh, we're talking about, I mean, I I have, let's say, a hundred. Really blow blow you away quality items.

• 12:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Gotcha. Which one is your favorite?

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Uh, in nineteen sixty three, Martin Luther King. Got purposely arrested in Birmingham with his right hand man Ralph Abernathy. And um, he wrote the letters from a Birmingham jail, which was cobbled together. From the letters from the jail to the outside and someone put it together. This was three months before I have a dream. The the letter was remarkable, although it doesn't get the credit it gets because it wasn't an oration like I have a dream. I own the warden's logbooks from the Birmingham jail. Uh, which has twelve Martin Luther King signatures of him signing in and out his mail, which he then used to.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Give the letters to the outside.

• 12:53Anthony Pompliano?

  So Darren, most of these things, whether it's the checks, the logbooks, etc. It seems like people have this fascination with signatures. Why is it that that signature is so valuable in your opinion on these items? Or like if you had the logbook without a signature, it would be worth less. Like, what is it about the signature that drives so much value?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  I mean, it depends what signatures, but yes, people like signatures. I think it depends on, you know, what it's on a lot more. I am in general not interested in signatures. But if you tell me that you could get Tiger Woods' signature on a 1997 Masters badge, and the signature is from 1997 to 99. And by the way, that's determined by the fact that his signature changed in 2000. So there's a lot of nuance to this, but I think people in general like signatures. I'm more tied to, like, I have four or five Martin Luther King

• 13:53Speaker 02

  signatures. They are all from 1963, because I think that's the year. And, you know, so, these markets, by the way, are fairly illiquid. But I never worry about it because I think that some of the pieces I have and collect are so remarkable, and I have the ability to tell the story, that it doesn't matter that 100,000 people don't want it. You know, so right now, I'm collecting tickets, and there's probably 10,000 ticket collectors that just absolutely love tickets versus 20 million people that love cards. People say, oh, but it's not as liquid as cards. Doesn't concern me, because if I'm getting the best pieces in the world, there'll be people to buy it.

• 14:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that makes sense. All right. Signatures on physical items. You just described how Tiger Woods changed his signature, which is wild stat by itself, or a piece of-

• 14:46Speaker 02

  No, no, no, actually not. I mean, changed it like a little bit, almost maybe unknowingly.

• 14:54Anthony Pompliano?

  What is the difference?

• 14:56Speaker 02

  There's less of a curve to it. In one of the, like, athletes in their course of their career usually change their signature in a way that you would know, or at least the people who collect would know, four to six times.

• 15:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow. And is that on purpose or that they're just their hand changes? They get tired of signing stuff?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, now these guys, I mean, it used to be Harmon Killebrew, you know, and Willie Mays and some of these guys had had tremendous autographs. And now you get like Mellow Ball looks exactly like, you know,

• 15:31Anthony Pompliano?

  I saw the video of

• 15:32Speaker 02

  The Bridge is one. Yeah, I mean, it's like their MB. Yeah, gee, thanks. I mean, like, some of these things now, now, if the guy's collectible. So I hate Lin-Manuel Miranda's signature, but I do collect dollar bills. So Lin-Manuel putting the goatee on Hamilton, even though, I mean, look at that Lin, that signature. But, but you put the goatee on Hamilton, you know, like, that's next level.

• 15:55Anthony Pompliano?

  What, what is it? Wait, wait, wait, hold on a second. Hold on, hold on. What's your signature look like?

• 16:00Speaker 02

  My signature's damn good.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Because on Twitter, about 10 years ago, I started critiquing athletes' signatures. And I was like, you know what? Even when I'm an E-list celebrity, but I'm like, now, every time I sign a receipt, even a receipt at a restaurant, it is, it is bona fide incredible signature.

• 16:23Anthony Pompliano?

  If you give it out, you got to be ready to have a good signature yourself.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  I got here. I got, I got two more dollars for you. Ready? So we got, we got Jay-Z on a hundo.

• 16:33Anthony Pompliano?

  How much was that? How much was that that you had to pay for it? You remember?

• 16:36Speaker 02

  I paid 1,300 for this. I just think, you know, I think Jay-Z is going to get hard. I do focus on guys that are going to get harder and harder. Hold on one second.

• 16:49Anthony Pompliano?

  So Darren Rovell has left the interview.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  So this is a, if you see on this side or on this side, it's, it says customers rule J.F. Bezos. It's one of his nicest signatures, and it's on the 1999 Time Person of the Year. I bought this the day he stepped down as, or was saying he was stepping down as Amazon CEO, because I just thought to myself, how much harder is it going to be to get him? He's going to go from private jet to private island. It's going to be impossible. Jay-Z's one of those guys who's going to get harder and harder. I have a ton of Buffett. Buffett has gotten, I have the largest Warren Buffett signature in the world. Whatever, that's rough.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  But, but, uh, but, but it's guys who are gonna get harder. Uh, and, and now I will tell you Elon Musk is a real, real one that I haven't figured out yet. I have no Elon Musk pieces for, for one reason. One, he is, he has signed cars and pictures on the way to like when he's going somewhere. He has signed, he has stood, and I also think he's a big enough of a freak that I start collecting like if when I collect, if I collect Gates, I didn't account for the Epstein connection. But when I can, when, when, when I collect Gates and Buffett and those guys like I don't think they're gonna change. Musk like one day could do like a free autograph signing for

• 18:15Speaker 02

  like 20,000 people. Like I don't know what that dude's gonna do. So I, I, right now I'm uncomfortable investing in him.

• 18:22Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't think that Elon Musk is gonna do that, just for the record.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  But he'll do, he, he might do something more extensive than anything that those other.

• 18:32Anthony Pompliano?

  True, true, true. All right. Before we get into the Bitcoin stuff, I want you to tell us, how did you prepare for this? We need to know what we're going into here. Did you do a practice debate? Did you read online? What did you do to prepare?

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Uh, I enlisted a guy named Alex Holmes, who is, um, who has Bitcoin mining machines.

• 18:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Um, and, uh, he is, uh, uh, he was on the USC championship football teams, um, uh, offensive lineman. Um, and, uh, he is as crazy Bitcoin as possible.

• 19:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  Uh, um, and so I, uh, threatened during our hour conversation last night, I threatened to end it more than five times.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Because I was so enraged.

• 19:24Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. What are your questions?

• 19:25Speaker 02

  But I knew I, by the way, I also, I, I just because I, so I was in crypto for 41 days total. I feel like I need to say this. I was in crypto for 41 days total.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  I netted probably around, I don't know, over a hundred thousand dollars, mostly in ETH through horse sales. I bought ninety-three thousand dollars worth of horses in Zed Run and I sold it for more than double. I was out in mid-May when ETH was at the highest or near the highest. Just following that, and I am a gambler at heart, and the volatility made me sick. I don't care whether it's on paper, or if I'm down sixteen grand and it's on paper, it's just as bad as me being down sixteen grand for good. That's just how my head works. So I just felt like I need to explain that I did deep dive, and when I deep dive, I do deep dive.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  And I have learned as much as I can about this. I have your newsletter. I read your newsletter. I often don't get to the bottom because I'm so angry.

• 20:38Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, what are your, let's start from the top, and it's 12:33 right now. By one o'clock, you're going to tell me you're going to buy Bitcoin. Let's start from the top. What is your, what are the questions that you have? You have a notebook full of questions.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  So you say that Bitcoin is innovative, right? But at the same time, it hasn't evolved and it's irreplaceable. So to me, that's like the Kodak guys saying, this is a great innovation, this Polaroid camera. But then saying, there's nothing beyond the Polaroid camera, because this is it. So how do you have something that is both innovative and at the same time, doesn't change and is irreplaceable?

• 21:32Anthony Pompliano?

  So, good question. I feel like I'm being cross-examined by a prosecutor right now.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  No, I give you, I give you a ton of credit here because I'm gonna ask you some good questions here and I'm excited.

• 21:43Anthony Pompliano?

  This is a very good question. There's, there's two different ways to look at innovation. The first is what I'll call like the zero to one of the creation of Bitcoin. So the ability to actually create a decentralized digital currency. There's plenty of other attempts at digital currencies in the past. None of them had been successful around creating a decentralized digital currency. When you think of when you're creating technology, you can either choose to pursue security and resilience, or you can choose to pursue speed, innovation, etc. Bitcoin's initial creation understood decentralization is the single most important aspect of what we're gonna go do. There are nation-state concerns. There is the ability where people will want to control the monetary

• 22:27Anthony Pompliano?

  policy of this, make changes, etc. So decentralization was the pursuit. The leveraging of proof of work, which had been created before, the difficulty adjustment of the Bitcoin block reward, and then actually just the structure of Bitcoin itself, created kind of a confluence of events that put Bitcoin into the world. It's gone from zero to 800-plus billion dollars in economic value in 12 years, right? Absolutely insane. So that was kind of a zero-to-one moment. Now, along the path or the ethos of keeping security, resilience, decentralization, Bitcoin is intentionally very, very secure, methodical and intentional about the development process. So I'm sure you've seen a bunch of the

• 23:08Anthony Pompliano?

  issues in like the DeFi world where there's been hacks of large amounts of money, etc. Some of that is-

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Bitcoin is set up to be the, is irreplaceable in the fact that it's set up through their system to be the most complex system that you cannot replace. I understand that.

• 23:24Anthony Pompliano?

  It, it's basically the thing that has the highest likelihood of being here 100 years from now. So because there's 800 billion dollars or so of economic value that's at stake, we have to be very methodical about the software process. And so there actually has been a lot of updates, a lot of innovation that's occurred. So for example- There was a recent update called Taproot, which basically was a software update to the actual Bitcoin protocol that was adopted by everyone in the ecosystem. And it increased things like lower cost, more privacy, et cetera. So that's a layer one type innovation. On top of that, there's been innovation in the overall system with things like layer two. So go back, you had some dollar bills there, right? If you go back to the US dollar system,

• 24:09Anthony Pompliano?

  gold was the original layer one technology, right? It for 5,000 years served as money. Really hard to carry around, really hard to use to pay for things, hard to send to people, et cetera. So what did we do? We created a layer two on top of the gold to make it easier to transact. Paper claims of gold, right? Dollar dollars backed by gold. So now you leave the gold in the vault. You walk around with the paper and you can exchange it pretty easily with people. And if they ever want the gold, they can go back and they can get it out of the vault until 1971. And eventually there was layer three, layer four, layer five, right? Things like credit, electronic money, et cetera. But it was all built on that layer one of the secure gold.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Okay, can I cut you off? Can I cut you off?

• 24:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Of course.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  I think that is, I think that's a good answer. I don't know if I understood it all. You're really good at talking about this, but I'm not sure if it makes sense or not. I'm not sure, but I want to hit on the decentralized part. So you said the important part about this was the decentralized nature of it all. Okay. So the new people that are in Bitcoin, at least, from anecdotally who I've talked to, do not give a flying about the decentralization part of it. In fact, with most people I talked to, it's actually not a positive. Now, I know you talk about the government versus us and you know, all that.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  And that's what propagates the, we want this to be decentralized. But And I'm not saying this isn't important. There's a lot of people who either don't care about the decentralized portion of it, or don't want it to be decentralized because it's fucking scary.

• 25:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. So I think that it's important to understand what is the value proposition of Bitcoin. The value proposition is that Bitcoin is a store of value that is based on a transparent programmatic monetary policy, right? If I asked you how many dollars are coming in circulation today, you can't tell me. If I ask you what's the next policy decision in the US dollar system, you can't tell me.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  It's transparent because it's all on the ledger and everything has to be seen. But it's not, and when we'll talk about taxes later, but it's transparent because of that. But it doesn't seem to be transparent. I mean, the idea of it being decentralized and not connected to anything and founded by a person who we didn't know.

• 26:33Anthony Pompliano?

  So hold on a second. So transparent programmatic monetary policy. And the reason why that's important is because sound money principles, which gold and Bitcoin both hold, are the idea that it's outside the system and no one can create more of that asset, right? So no one controls it. Gold is the analog application. It's the physical version of sound money principles. Bitcoin takes a lot of those same principles, the sound money principles, and applies it in a digital product. What I mean by that is 21 million total, and we know every single monetary policy decision that's already happened. We know every single transaction. I can literally show it to you since January 3, 2009. And

• 27:16Anthony Pompliano?

  then we know exactly what's happening right now. 900 Bitcoin will come into circulation today. And we also know every future monetary policy decision in the future. I can show you everything on a blockchain. Now, why is that important, right? That's the value proposition. Why is it important? Well, when you compare it to the existing system, what you see is it's 180 degree difference. Fiat currencies are inflationary and they're completely unpredictable, right? That's both true in the United States and elsewhere. Bitcoin is the opposite. It is a fixed supply asset and it is completely predictable. If you think of the role of a central bank, there's basically-

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Okay, by the way, that's where I'm like about to slam the door. Okay?

• 27:57Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, why?

• 27:58Speaker 02

  This is what enrages me.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Completely predictable part. Okay, so we have 21 million Bitcoin.

• 28:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Correct.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  And we have, we know the supply and we know about the halving and we know it'll be less and less and less all the way to, what is it?

• 28:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Zero.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Two thousand.

• 28:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Till 2140.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  2140. Okay. So we know that. But where, so when I talk to Alex and I listen to you, it's a foregone conclusion that this is going to go to 100 and up and up and up. It has to. It has to because there's no replacement for it and there will be more demand for it. And that drives me nuts because I've taken economic classes and I want to know where in Adam Smith and any economist that has ever said anything, has anyone said that you can guarantee a system whereby it will definitely over time only go up?

• 28:59Anthony Pompliano?

  So, so this is a great question, right? And you're the perfect person to talk to this about because you understand supply and demand better than almost anybody else, right? The difference is, remember what you said about Elon Musk? You said, I don't want to buy Elon Musk's signatures because I'm scared that he may go do a signing of 20,000, you know, pieces. And so all of a sudden the supply would move on me, right? I can't predict the supply. What Bitcoin has that is different than any other asset in the world is that Bitcoin's supply is known with certainty. So forget price. Price is not certain, but the supply is certain. 21 million total. We know the halving schedule. We know exactly how many will come in. And so from a circulating supply and total supply, we know with certainty.

• 29:45Anthony Pompliano?

  When you have one side of a supply-demand equation that is known and proven.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's nice, but you guys talk about as if you know that demand is a foregone.

• 29:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so this is the key part is when you know supply and you can prove it, it's not just knowing what's going to happen, it's being able to verify it, prove it, right? When you know that with certainty and can prove it, then the only thing you need to be able to kind of look at or extrapolate is demand. Now, demand is not known, right? We do not know if demand for Bitcoin is going to go up or down.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  But you talk about it as if you know.

• 30:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, hold on a second, hold on. So, think about it probabilistically, right? If you think of it as, is it more likely that Bitcoin demand goes up or down in the future? Well, there's a couple of different ways you can analyze.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 30:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, well, so let me walk you through a couple of things I think, and you can disagree with them. One is, if you look at it as a pure technology, as a network, right? What you end up finding is that money is one of the most viral technology products in the world. Because what happens is, in order for the money to be valuable to me, I need to be able to send it to other people, and they need to be able to send it to me. And so, things like PayPal, or Cash App, etc., and also things like Bitcoin are very viral because they involve money. So, if you look at just as a structure, it is more likely that it will be a viral product than not. If you then look at it in terms of economics, Bitcoin today, having that finite supply and a transparent programmatic monetary policy,

• 31:17Anthony Pompliano?

  being the exact opposite of kind of the chaotic monetary policy in the fiat system, it is likely, not guaranteed, but likely, that people will seek something to store value in if the currency that they denominate their life in is being devalued at a historic rate.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, okay, okay. I got that. Now, can I get to, I need to get to this. Because my eye is on the time, and believe me, we have 17 minutes here. Okay. Then, the next issue is that we talk about the inhuman nature of Bitcoin. Okay? We talk about the fact that it's not affected by humans, right? Like, it's not controlled like the Fed. That's your, that's your main concern. Look what the Fed's doing, pumping out more and more money. It's inflationary, this is a disaster. Bitcoin is not affected by humans, I've heard that.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  And that's also the, one of the most outrageous, egregious things I could ever imagine. Because at least right now... Maybe it wasn't so much affected by humans in the first eight years of its life cycle. But in 2021, baby, I could tie what Elon Musk said, what China did when they shut down their machines. I could tie every single news data points to where Bitcoin went. And so to me, it's like, you guys say that this is a, the benefit is it's, it's, it's, it's non-human. And then all of a sudden I'm thinking, well, it's a hell of a lot more human manipulated than the dollar.

• 32:54Anthony Pompliano?

  So, so think about this for a second. There's two different ways to look at this conversation. Let's start with the monetary policy, the, the structure of it. Nobody controls it, nobody can change it, no one's ever changed it, no one will ever change it because everyone would have to agree or majority of people have to agree. So the structure, the monetary policy is immune to human emotions of greed, fear, politics, et cetera. What you're talking about is the US dollar exchange price, right? Which basically means Bitcoin was worth 60,000, now it's worth 40,000. In a world that is denominated in dollars, there is volatility. There's also volatility in dollars, right?

• 33:34Anthony Pompliano?

  If you were to invert it and say, okay, the dollar denominated in Bitcoin has been crashing aggressively for a decade. Now, in the last 12 months-

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, can I stop?

• 33:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Crashing aggressively, so you talk a lot, I'm gonna let you go. You talk a lot about America, which to me, I understand your sponsors are in America, this is an American audience. But like, I totally get Bitcoin in Nicaragua and Argentina, I mean, God, I mean, they got, they got nothing, the bank means nothing, the, you know. But in America, like, it's, it's, to me, it doesn't, even if there's inflation, it doesn't seem like it's a foregone conclusion that inflation and Bitcoin are, are, are related or in, in any way.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Nor does it seem to me that like, we are headed to a point where Bitcoin is going to become the next currency and replace fiat, so-

• 34:31Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, let me, let me- Through a couple of these things, right? So first is in the United States, the financial position of Americans is way worse than anyone understands. Seventy-eight percent of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Forty-five percent of Americans have no investable assets. So they're the people who get hurt the most by the inflation, right? Stanley Druckenmiller has gone on CNBC multiple times and said, listen, the Fed is the greatest contributor to wealth inequality because when they print money, people who hold assets get richer, right? Everyone that we know that holds assets has gotten rich beyond their wildest dreams in the last 12, 15 months. Stock market hitting all time highs, you know, all that type of stuff. Bitcoin as well. Every asset goes up. The people who get hurt are the people who live paycheck to paycheck and have all of their

• 35:12Anthony Pompliano?

  wealth in cash. So what you get is this massive divergence in the two kind of populations, if you will. And so ultimately, what happens is, don't think of Bitcoin as replacing the dollar from a, uh, the government is going to ask me to pay in Bitcoin for tax purposes for right now, right? Just simply think of it-

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Isn't that, isn't that the main point to when the hodlers, holders, uh, decide to really, is it, out of all the things, that here's the three, the thing and the flow, and it's on the third time, I'm gonna hit it at the high, and I'm like, it's so obvious. Why would anyone, if, if everyone knows that you're hitting at the high of the next half, what's the deal? It's like Jerry Seinfeld. Okay, but, but what I don't, I just don't understand that, like, how that, how it works-

• 35:59Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, all right, hold on, hold on. So, so think about this, is, uh, your grandparents, my grandparents, my great grandparents would tell you and I, save. That was, that was the advice financially, right, was spend less than you make, stay out of debt, and save. And before 1971, you literally could save your way to financial security, right? That was possible because there wasn't a massive devaluation of the currency. Today, it is impossible to save, right? If you look at, uh, somewhere like a Chipotle, where they gave a three to four percent wage increase to their workers, CPI is at five plus percent, right? So it doesn't even account for the actual inflation. And so you can't save your way. So what has happened is-

• 36:42Anthony Pompliano?

  We've seen all these investors push further and further out on the risk curve. They're YOLOing into stocks, collectibles, Bitcoin, cryptocurrency. Everything that is like the madness of the markets is because people can't simply just buy bonds or hold cash. Right. And so when you get to that world, it's almost this crazy thing where we ask a teacher to go to school and be a great teacher and then go home and be a professional investor. Right. That's the only way to keep your purchasing power, which is insane. You think it's insane. Everyone thinks that's insane. What Bitcoin provides is basically a savings account. It's an asset where you simply just save. And as you save, what happens is because of that structure and that finite component to it,

• 37:24Anthony Pompliano?

  the US dollar exchange price has to go up as long as, as long as there is more and more people that want it. Now, what is the most interesting part about the Bitcoin market? I don't know if you know this or not, but you can see on chain, which is basically that open ledger, how many Bitcoin are being held by people who historically have never sold? And that number is usually over 50%. So right now there's 18 to 19 million, it's about 19 million Bitcoin or so in circulation. It's like 18.8 million, I think. And that 18.8 million in the last 12 months is held by 70% of that is held by people who don't sell. They're called strong hands.

• 38:06Anthony Pompliano?

  So you literally have 18.8 million in the market, but 70% of them or so are being held by people who are those long-term hodlers. And so when institutions or public companies show up and say, hey, I want to buy Bitcoin, they go to these exchanges and they say, hey, I'll pay you $10,000 for your Bitcoin. And the Bitcoiners say, I'm not selling it. Then they say 15,000, I'm not selling 20, 30, 40.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  So this also drives me nuts, right? So you have, it will only go up, the demand will only go up, so it's going to only go up. And then it's the hodlers holders, again, I'm not beholden to these economic textbooks. Okay. But no one's ever said that you should always hold over time. Why did I sell my baseball cards in February and it just? Turned out that it was three days away from what was the high in the market because it just seemed too obvious for me. I was uncomfortable. The idea of holding is a cult-like activity that in previous worlds just does not make any economic sense and it's unique to this Bitcoin crypto

• 39:13Speaker 02

  market, which to I think a rational person like myself makes absolutely no sense.

• 39:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so it's a fair critique. Let me put it in a different perspective and I think it'll make more sense. If I said to you, name a meme stock, the first one that you would tell me is GameStop AMC. One of the ones that we've recently talked about. I would argue that Berkshire Hathaway is a meme stock, right? There is a leader, Warren Buffett. People go on Mecca to Omaha every year to talk to him. They are disciples of Warren.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  It has cultish type properties. I agree with you there.

• 39:46Anthony Pompliano?

  So Berkshire Hathaway AMC, same story, different generations.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  It's not, it's not the same story because AMC, everyone knows that the popcorn is still ingrained in their red carpet from 1983. And they know that. And they, and they know that while Warren Buffett has said, buy what you know, he has done some great deals with insurance companies and transportation. There is actually fundamentals behind it.

• 40:10Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm talking about the psychological component.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  I get it. The properties of it. I get it.

• 40:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so those are very similar, just different generations. Historically, people would buy real estate and would say, never sell the real estate. The real estate will always go up in value because it's actually the dollar being devalued against it, right? Now, what these people are doing is

• 40:30Speaker 02

  It's a hedge.

• 40:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, as hodlers, is there basically buying digital real estate is a way to look at it. So there's 21 million lots in this digital ledger. How many do you own, right? And so just like you wouldn't sell the real estate or day trade the real estate or say, hey, you know what? I think it's high in February. Let me buy it back in March, right? Because it's, it just doesn't make sense to do that with real estate. The same thing's happening here. And so ultimately, one of the things that Bitcoiners say, which, uh, this is gonna be crazy for you to hear at first, but just think through it for a second.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  Oh, I've heard a lot of crazy things.

• 41:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoin actually embodies the timeless investing principles. It's basically dollar cost average in. Don't look at price and sell and hold for really, really long periods of time. And if you buy a great asset and hold it for a long period of time, you will do well when it comes to wealth generation.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  But see, the problem is Bitcoin is so young that that's why it comes off as a tactic. Real estate is not young. Bitcoin is. And so it's like, oh, it's look, look, let me show you the chart of the last 10 years. How can you argue with this? It's the last 10 years and it's the first 10 years. And, and I can show you a chart and I know it's the first 10, so it means a little bit more, the first 12, whatever that chart is, but I can show you a beautiful chart of, of blockbuster from 1985 to 1995.

• 41:55Anthony Pompliano?

  So here is a great way to look at it. In 1971 is the creation of fiat currency. And that fiat currency is only 50 years old, right? We just had the 50 year anniversary of the Nixon speech. Bitcoin is 12, so it's younger than the fiat currency. If you look in 1971 at what happened to gold, it was at like 35 bucks or whatever, and now it's trading at 16, $1700. So there's the world repriced gold once it was unpecked. My belief is that the world at that time was trying to price what is a global store of value. Right? And so gold was a global store of value. It ended up pricing it where it is today. I think Bitcoin's going through the same thing, which is in the first 12 years, it explodes. You're not going to get the same returns in the next 12 years that you got in the first 12 years, obviously.

• 42:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? There's more distributed ownership, all that type of stuff. But what I do think is that Bitcoin, which historically has grown at, let's say, 200% compound annual growth for a decade, maybe that comes down and it's 150 or 100 or whatever the number is.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  It's still, but it could be negative, it could be zero. I mean, like,

• 42:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, the only way that it would be zero is that you would have to basically have no more increasing demand. So the whole thesis,

• 43:03Speaker 02

  There was, it is possible, even though Bitcoin itself is not replaceable to the exact T, right? You, I buy that you cannot replace Bitcoin to, to the computer systems, how everything's back ended. Fine. But maybe there is something that is like that, that people simply want. You always talk about, you know, the digital currency, the quick transaction on the ledger. If that did become a currency and we did more of that, like, I don't know, like, I know I'm a 43 year old guy, but like, I kinda like the 100 days where I can get my money back on, on Apple Pay. Or and I, and I know you, you, you can say, well, then we'll pay you if there's a problem, we'll pay

• 43:45Speaker 02

  you back. And it's, it's, it's, it's the, it's the young, fast transactions. But like, again, like, it seems to me, and I know we're, we're, we're, we're almost done here. It seems to me that people say, if they're in Bitcoin or crypto, they say it's not comparable to anything, except when they, when it is convenient to compare.

• 44:05Anthony Pompliano?

  So there's definitely tons of what I'll call intellectual manipulation that goes on because people are trying to explain it. They're trying to compare it. There's also a spectrum of people who are very sophisticated and can explain it well. And then those who are trying their best, etc. It's like, that's true in any market. What I would say is the comparison between Bitcoin, let's say, Apple Pay is a comparison of technologies from a payments perspective. What the true Bitcoiners, I think, wrap their head around and kind of hold on to is Bitcoin is different from a monetary policy standpoint. So forget for a second, which transaction is faster, or, you know, does a store accept Apple Pay or not, whatever. The difference is the 180

• 44:47Anthony Pompliano?

  degree, um, kind of opposite is the spectrum of Bitcoin being a transparent programmatic monetary policy versus an unpredictable one. And so ultimately, what you have to do is you have to get to, from a sequence of events, you can't be a true, good medium of exchange unless first you're a good store of value. You can't be a true, good medium or a store of value unless you are a super secure decentralized system in today's digital world. And so what I think is going to happen here is these central bank digital currencies, this is, you know, the digital dollar, etc. Those are technology innovations, but the monetary policy is the exact same. Right. What Bitcoin did was it innovated on monetary policy.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Is it possible to have, will it be possible to have a centralized, obviously it won't run exactly as Bitcoin, but will it, is it possible that a replacement is a centralized coin?

• 45:37Anthony Pompliano?

  So what I think ends up happening is every single country in the world that has a fiat currency is going to create a digital version. So there will be a digital dollar, digital euro, digital one, etc.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  China is doing that, right?

• 45:48Anthony Pompliano?

  They're all doing it. The, the problems with that, I think there's three problems. One is you drastically increase financial surveillance. Right now, if I want to know what's in your bank account, I gotta go to a FISA court or whatever and get an order to subpoena your bank records, right? If they control the system, they can see in your account and what everything you spend on. Really scary stuff, especially in authoritarian countries, but even here in the US. The second thing is that they can personalize the monetary policy. So everything in your life is personalized, your news feed, your search results, your music playlist, your Google Maps, everything. If all of a sudden I can say Darren gets a high rate of inflation and Pomp doesn't, or Darren has to, you know, experience something

• 46:29Anthony Pompliano?

  from monetary policy standpoint and Pomp doesn't, scary. The third thing is, and China just ran a test here, and we have it in the US with EBT cards, is what if they make the money expire? So say we're gonna move to a UBI system and every month Darren's gonna get $1,200, but he must spend it in the first 30 days or it disappears. Now all of a sudden you lose sovereignty, right? You lose control. It becomes a more authoritarian system. And so all of that will be possible? I'm not saying that they're gonna do it.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Okay, I agree. That makes sense, but also some people are more comforted in an authoritative system than a system that has nothing and no one running it.

• 47:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Agreed.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Wait a minute, we got a minute. I got two more things. I am not going to invest in Bitcoin yet. I mean, this would take another couple hours, but my two last things, and I'll, I'll leave the floor to you for the, for the last bit. You talk about inflation, and the one thing about inflation that people think about is erratic volatility. And isn't Bitcoin, at least in the last six to 10 months, more erratic than the American dollar?

• 47:34Speaker 02

  And that's one. And then two, why do you feel the need, why do all people who invest in Bitcoin feel the need that they need to talk about it and pump it up? Why is it part of like a multi-level marketing scheme? Why is that part of the deal when I buy Bitcoin? Why do I have to pump it up? Why does pump on, on June 26, 2019, say there's a 75% chance that it's going to reach 100,000 by 2021? Why is there that need? That's my final thing.

• 48:04Anthony Pompliano?

  All right.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  And I know.

• 48:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Inflation.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  We might have to do another one.

• 48:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Inflation, dollars guaranteed to go down in value, guaranteed. There's not very many things guaranteed in life, guaranteed dollar will lose value every single year. Second thing on inflation is that if you look over the last six, seven months, Bitcoin has appreciated. It was $30,000 on January 1st, and now it's sitting at $45,000, $46,000. The dollar has been devaluing. So over 12 months, six months, 10 years, five years, everything, the dollar's gone down, Bitcoin has gone up in value. So Bitcoin protects and increases your purchasing power while the dollar does the exact opposite. Two completely different kind of structured systems.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  If you're a rational person, you want to throw up every day from, you know, the roller coaster.

• 48:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Agreed. If you look at the US dollar price. Now, what we didn't get to, and we'll do, you know, a different conversation around is if all of a sudden, everything is priced in the currency, so dollars, you don't realize that the dollar's volatile. You just see that, oh, prices went up a little bit, right? That's the only way you see any level of inflation. You don't realize that the dollar lost 10, 15, 20%.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Correct. There's not, there's not a metric every day on how devalued the dollar is.

• 49:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Exactly. So.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  The C guy comes.

• 49:12Anthony Pompliano?

  If everything was denominated in Bitcoin, you wouldn't see US dollar exchange, you know, price volatility. You would just see whether the price of things are going up or down. Over the last 10 years, everything's been getting cheaper. If you denominate your life in Bitcoin, everything getting more expensive in dollars. So let's put that in a box and we'll put that to the side. The second thing is, I think most people who hold Bitcoin, what ends up happening, I say it all the time, is Bitcoin taught me economics and it taught me personal finance. I got an economics degree. I didn't learn anything in college, right? But I got the degree. I got a piece of paper. I'm supposed to know all this stuff. It's not until I bought Bitcoin that I really started to understand money. And there's this belief that like, people come for the profits. They think they're gonna get rich. That's what pulls people into Bitcoin or cryptocurrency. They think they're gonna get rich. Not everyone, but a lot of people.

• 49:57Anthony Pompliano?

  But ultimately, they start to hold the asset and they start to learn economics. They start to learn about personal finance. They start to learn about the dollar, Bretton Woods, inflation, all these things. And they start to understand, wow, why was I not taught this in high school? And or college or after I graduated? And what they're doing is they're not so much talking about Bitcoin, I think. I think what they're doing is they're actually talking about calling out kind of the charade that goes on in the legacy system. Now, what they say is, hey, Bitcoin's the solution. Bitcoin fixes this, you know, whatever your favorite example is. But I don't think it's about talking so much about Bitcoin as it is highlighting the issues in the legacy system.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you gonna buy Bitcoin?

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Uh, I will buy, you know what? At to honor you for having the balls to have me on. I will, I will buy some Bitcoin. I'll receive it in 10 days because I'm gonna go through Coinbase. I will buy a nominal amount of Bitcoin. And I will, it will be in your name. I will, I will honor you by, by, by doing that today. Because I appreciate you having me on and allowing you to ask some of the tough questions.

• 51:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Listen, we're gonna do this again because I actually enjoyed doing this. But the next request that I have.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  I think it's good for, by the way, I think it's good for you too. Like you can't have, I mean, to have some critics every once in a while.

• 51:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Darren, do you see the laser eye? Do you see the laser eye bull right here? Let's go.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  You, you want to go, if you hold the bull by the horns, you'll be grabbing your nipples.

• 51:26Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, where can we send people to find you on the internet or find more?

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Darren Revell on Twitter, Darren Revell on Instagram. Just whatever you, if I'm sure, I'm sure I'll have a lot of people screaming and yelling at me. Listen, for the record, for those scoring at home, I didn't kill Pomp. Pomp didn't kill me. I know that when I go look at my Twitter, be like, oh, Pomp wrecked him. It was like, you know, the judges are always against me.

• 51:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Darren, I actually, I actually think people are gonna appreciate you doing this. I think that you came with good questions. You did your homework, you were open minded and you're even buying Bitcoins. That'll, that'll make some people happy. I think they'll enjoy it.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Awesome, Joe.

• 52:05Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, Darren, wait, two, two last things real quick. One, do you want to give a shout out to Athletic Brewing?

• 52:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, hells yeah. I wish I was drinking one right now. We are, we are rocking and rolling. I'm glad that they sponsor the huddle and Joe's endeavor. Non-alcoholic beer man is, you know, I've been a believer from the get-go. People on Twitter say that it's my brand. I don't care. You can look at my bank account later.

• 52:34Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, that's first. Second of all, can you do the, the virtual passing of the torch just for fun?

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 52:47Anthony Pompliano?

  I'll take it. Love you, man. Thank you so much.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. You got it. Take care, guys.