#602: True Decentralized Finance on Bitcoin with Max Carjuzaa

Max Carjuzaa is the co-founder and CEO of Money On Chain. In this conversation, we discuss Money on Chain, bitcoin defi, bitcoin collateral, bitcoin ethos, Argentina’s economy, and censorship resistance. ======================= Matrixport, Asia’s fastest growing digital asset platform with $10 billion in assets under management and custody, it offers one-stop crypto financial solutions including fixed income, DeFi in 1-click, structured products, Cactus Custody™, spot OTC as well as lending. You can earn from high single digit with fixed income to high double digit yield with their Dual Currency Product. If you hold crypto and look for yield, this is the app you don’t wanna miss out. Go download the Matrixport App and enjoy a welcome offer of 30% APY on USDC here: https://invest.matrixport.com/en ======================= With 10M+ users, Crypto.com is the easiest place to buy, and sell 100+ cryptocurrencies. The Crypto.com Visa Card gives you up to 8% back instantly, and 100% back on Spotify and Netflix. Also, Crypto.com lets you earn up to 8.5% p.a. on BTC, and 14% p.a. on stablecoins. Get $25 when you download the Crypto.com App with code "pomp". Download the App now: https://crypto.onelink.me/J9Lg/pomppodcast2021 ======================= Okcoin is one of the most popular licensed exchanges. Okcoin is the first to bring new cryptos to market, offering some of the lowest fees in the industry, an easy to use app, and Earn feature--you got to check out their brand new, beautifully designed app! And as of today, they also became the first US exchange to list NEAR. It’s easier than ever to sign up, buy and trade crypto in just 2 minutes on Okcoin with credit & debit cards or just link your bank account to the best new crypto assets. So get started, and go to okcoin.com/pomp

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast. Simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Max Carjuda is the co-founder and CEO of Money on Chain. In this conversation, we discuss Money on Chain, Bitcoin DeFi, Bitcoin as collateral, the Bitcoin ethos, Argentina's economy, and censorship resistance. I really enjoyed this conversation with Max, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is Matrix Port. Have you lost your way in this low-yield environment while searching for a better store of value to beat inflation? Look no further. Invest with Matrix Port to get more out of your crypto.

• 0:43Anthony Pompliano?

  You can invest today and earn very high rates of return and annualized yields. Matrix Port is Asia's fastest-growing digital asset platform founded by crypto veterans Ji Han Wu and John Ji. With $10 billion in assets under management and custody, Matrix Port offers one-stop crypto financial solutions, including fixed income, DeFi in one-click, structured products, Cactus Custody, Spot OTC, and lending. You can learn from high single-digit with fixed income to the high double-digit yield with dual currency product. If you hold crypto and look for a yield, this app is you don't want to miss. Go download the Matrix Port app and enjoy a welcome offer on USDC for new users. Go check them out by clicking on the link in the description.

• 1:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Next up is Crypto.com. With 10 million-plus users, Crypto.com is the easiest place to buy and sell 100-plus cryptocurrencies. Their Crypto.com Visa Card gives you up to 8% back instantly and 100% back on Spotify and Netflix. You can also earn high rates on various assets, and you can get $25 when you download the Crypto.com app using code Pomp. Go download the app and use code Pomp, and you'll get $25. Click on the link in the description. It'll take you right there to download the app. Last but not least are my friends over at OKCoin. OKCoin is one of the most popular licensed exchanges. OKCoin is the first to bring new cryptos to market, offering some of the lowest fees in the industry.

• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

  An easy to use app and an earn feature where you got to check out their brand new beautifully designed app. And as of today, they also became the first US exchange to list near. It's easier than ever to sign up, buy and trade crypto in just two minutes on OKCOIN with credit or debit cards, and you can just link your bank account to the best new crypto assets. So get started today. Go to OKCOIN.com/pomp. Again, OKCOIN.com/pomp. I love OKCOIN. They're funding Bitcoin development and they've taken many, many steps to align themselves with the Bitcoin ethos. Go check them out at OKCOIN.com/pomp. All right, let's get in this episode with Max. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:20Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Max here with me. Thank you so much for doing this, my friend.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 3:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Let's just jump right into it. You are one of the founders of Money on Chain. I think a lot of people have probably heard about it. They know it's something related to Bitcoin, but they probably don't understand exactly what you guys are building. And so let's just start kind of philosophically, who you are, why you're attracted to Bitcoin, and then why are you spending all of your time, which is your most valuable asset, building Money on Chain?

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Well, I am Max Kakuza. I discovered Bitcoin like in 2009. I felt like everybody else. I thought that the blockchain is great, but there is no value in Bitcoin. Then I rediscovered Bitcoin late 2011. I went through the rabbit hole.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  I've been teaching people about Bitcoin in Argentina since 2013.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Well, I'm actually a Bitcoiner.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  When Feather appears, immediately it brought my attention the problems with a centralized stablecoin.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  There are basically two big problems with that kind of stablecoin. The first one is that when you go into Feather or USDC or another centralized stablecoin, you have to trust the company behind that. And there is not too much Bitcoin. And the second problem is that when you go to a stablecoin like USDC or Feather, you are actually selling your Bitcoin for dollars. So the idea behind Mining Chain was having a stablecoin for Bitcoiners that inherits the same properties of Bitcoin, that no one can...

• 5:31Speaker 02

  You can transact with everybody and no one can stop your transaction. That was the first idea behind Mining Chain. And having the Bitcoin as collateral, I consider Bitcoin as the best collateral you can have. But moreover, when you have a stablecoin like Mining Chain, you are not actually selling your Bitcoin. You are parking your... You are not selling your Bitcoin for dollars. You are parking your dollars in a smart contract, so there is no sell pressure in the market.

• 6:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so really, the idea here was you were attracted to Bitcoin for all of the reasons that everyone is attracted to Bitcoin, but you realized that there was going to be value in the stablecoin market. And it sounds like you were against the idea of, hey, sell my Bitcoin for dollars to then have a dollar back stablecoin. And so really, that first foray was how do I build a stablecoin using Bitcoin as the collateral, but still enjoy all the things around censorship resistance and kind of the non custodial nature of some sort of financial product, but get stable value that I could then transact back and forth?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Exactly. We think that there are a lot of use cases for Bitcoin. For example, companies transacting with each other and people buying the pizza. But that is not happening because of the volatility of Bitcoin. Most Bitcoiners think that Bitcoin volatility will go away. I think that Bitcoin volatility won't go away because we have been using gold for 5,000 years and the gold is still volatile.

• 7:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And so one of the things that's really, really interesting about your approach is you essentially see the value of the ideas that many people are talking about outside of Bitcoin, whether it's stablecoins, or derivatives, or earning yield, or you know, whatever other idea. Your whole point, and I think why you guys are focused on the mechanism that you're focused on, is those are great ideas, but they should be built on top of Bitcoin using all of the kind of benefits that a secure decentralized censorship resistant chain would provide, rather than give up those qualities in order to pursue faster transactions, or cheaper fees, or some other kind of innovative, you know, type of edge case on the technology.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Exactly. You don't have to give away the using of the best collateral to have all that. You can have all that on top of Bitcoin.

• 8:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so when you think about what you're building, is this a layer two? Is it a side chain? Does it actually not matter what we call it? Like, like, walk us through some of the technical architecture here. So that people understand exactly what's happening when, let's say, they use this kind of Bitcoin collateralized stablecoin.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Okay, today this is more like a layer three because we are building this on top of RSK. RSK is a side chain of Bitcoin that uses most of the miners of Bitcoin through a process called merge mining. And we have built this protocol, a set of protocols on top of RSK. We build a money on chain to bring DeFi to the Bitcoin world and to bring Bitcoin to the masses.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  We have more than just a stablecoin protocol. We have a stablecoin protocol, we have a decentralized oracle protocol that is very important for decentralization.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  We have a governance protocol and we have also a decentralized exchange protocol.

• 9:18Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you, or go ahead.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  So you can build the finance 2.0 on top of money on chain.

• 9:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. So we've got the Bitcoin blockchain, which is kind of layer one. We then have RSK, which provides smart contract capabilities using this merge mining as a side chain to that or kind of a layer two replacement, if you will. And then you've got money on chain built on top of RSK. So that's where you get kind of that layer three application, if you will. When you start, when you start to think about who's using this? Is this crypto native folks who come in and say, look, I've got Bitcoin. I want to start to put it to work in certain ways. Or is this actually folks that are outside of the industry that are becoming Bitcoin or crypto natives? Because they see these products and they want to use the products. And where is the usage coming from?

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Well, basically, both worlds. We have four tokens. We are going to focus in the first two. The Dollar on Chain, that is a stablecoin, and the BitPro, that is a liquidity token for Bitcoin holders. So, the Dollar on Chain, as I told you, is a stablecoin, is backed by Bitcoin. The pay is warranted by the smart contract, that is very important. You don't depend in secondary markets. The pay is warranted by the smart contract. You can always redeem your Dollar on Chain against the smart contract. And then we have this second token that is called the BitPro, that is the token that I like more,

• 10:56Speaker 02

  that is a liquidity token meant for Bitcoin holders. So, if you are a long-term Bitcoin holder, it's a very good idea to have a little bit of your Bitcoins in BitPro. The BitPro appreciate is like 23% in the last year and a half.

• 11:16Anthony Pompliano?

  And so what people do is they take their Bitcoin and they are selling the Bitcoin for this BitPro or they're posting it somewhere like, "Walk me through, if I have Bitcoin and I want to earn yield on that Bitcoin, what exactly is happening there?"

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Well, first you have to transform your BTC in RBTC. You have to have your Bitcoins on the RSK network, of course, and then interacting with the platform. You mint BitPro. You send RBTC to the system and you mint the BitPro. And the BitPro is the one taking the volatility away from the Dollar on Chain. The BitPro earns for... It's because a little bit of leverage that the Dollar on Chain creates on the BitPro, it earns some of the platform fees, it earns some of the interest paid by a third actor that we are going to talk about later, that is the BTC X,

• 12:14Speaker 02

  and it earns some of the MOC token that are the governance protocols. So...

• 12:23Speaker 02

  The yield in the BitPro is not warranted. For example, if you buy, if you mint BitPro today and the price of Bitcoin goes down by 50% tomorrow, you are going to have a haircut, probably. You are, if you mint one Bitcoin of BitPro and the price goes by, goes down by 50%, you are probably ending up with 0.9 Bitcoins. But as the dollars are minted in a faster way than Bitcoin, in the long term, the price of Bitcoins tends to appreciate against the dollar.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  And in the same way that the Bitcoin tends to appreciate against the dollar, the BitPro earns all that money left in the table by the DOC token holders. So if you are a long-term Bitcoin holder, it's a very good idea to have a little bit of BitPro.

• 13:24Anthony Pompliano?

  And then you have this thing called Bitcoin X or BTC X, which is basically a way to get leveraged exposure using Bitcoin as collateral?

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Exactly. The BTC X is a two-ex position in the price of Bitcoin. The BTC X pay for that leverage. The money that the BTC X pays goes directly to the BitPro. So basically, what the protocol does is it takes the volatility away from the dollar chain and give it for free to the BitPro. And then the BitPro sells that volatility to the BTC X and earns an interest rate in return.

• 14:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then MOC is kind of the fourth product that you have. Explain what that does.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  The MOC token is a governance token. It's meant to govern the upgrades of the protocol.

• 14:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so is it fair to kind of think of this as a lot of what's going on in the DeFi world that's being built on top of Ethereum or Binance Smart Chain or somewhere else? You all have been able to figure out how to use RSK to build it on top of Bitcoin, use Bitcoin as that layer one security and then Bitcoin as the actual collateral in all of these various products without having to use some of the other coins that are out there that may have different monetary policies or different security apparatuses?

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Yes, one important thing to notice is that we are not forking any protocol. All the technology that we have developed is our technology. It's public, but it's developed by us. And the first thing we have in mind developing this protocol was robustness and security. So typically, the over collateralization that the protocol has is much higher than other protocols. And so the protocol is much robust than other protocols.

• 15:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And when you start to think about kind of use cases for this, right? You're able to build a pretty compelling product suite. You're able to kind of point to the security of Bitcoin, the censorship resistant. But the ultimate test is in the market. And you started out earlier talking about Argentina. And a lot of the work that you've done over the years are trying to educate people about Bitcoin in Argentina. Maybe kind of first start with just like, what are the problems in Argentina that people may not be aware of in terms of the economy, the monetary policy and some of those macro forces? And then we could talk about how Argentinians are using the products that you've built.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  Well, Argentina has two really big problems. One is inflation. Inflation in Argentina is like 40 to 50% right now. And the other problem is capital control. You cannot buy US dollar in Argentina. The law there is ridiculous. For example, you can manage to buy US dollar, but you have to pay like 160 pesos to buy dollars. And then when you sell your dollars, the bank is going to give you only 100 dollars. It's unbelievable.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  So people cannot buy or use US dollar today in Argentina, but they are allowed to use stable coins. So the dollar on chain is a wonderful solution for them. People is using dollar on chain in Argentina mainly to send remittances to Venezuela. There are already a few companies using the dollar on chain in their balance sheets.

• 17:11Anthony Pompliano?

  And so when you think about what you're building, what is kind of the the actual adoption in Argentina, right? What are people doing with the product? And where are you seeing kind of the most excitement or the most volume? And kind of the the largest coalescing of users with these various products?

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, I have to tell you that the protocol

• 17:37Speaker 02

  is is small today. We have only like 500 Bitcoins in the protocol. We started with like four Bitcoin in the protocol. The the protocol is very good handling the liquidity. So we didn't need to have a B C putting millions of dollars to put trap the protocol. The liquidity of the protocol works always very well. So the the protocol continues to grow. We have new users every day. But basically, the people using the protocol are we have two kinds of people using the protocol. We have no coiners using the dollar and chain

• 18:19Speaker 02

  to get away from inflation in Argentina and Venezuela. And we have Bitcoiners using the BitPro to earn most satoshis.

• 18:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then how do you think about these products interacting with other Bitcoin DeFi products? Or kind of ecosystems? So take something like a sovereign or other types of those. Is this something that is they're compatible and collaborative with each other? Are they competing for users? Is it some users will come to one product or kind of platform or ecosystem for one use case? And then other ones fulfill others? Just how do you see kind of the landscape of folks building these decentralized financial applications on top of Bitcoin or RSK?

• 19:03Speaker 02

  We built the protocol thinking about other protocols. We have the idea of collaboration instead of competition with other protocols. So we've been thinking about protocols like Sovereign or Tropicus, that they can use our tokens in their protocol. Moreover, if you are going to, I don't know, go long or short the price of Bitcoin using the Sovereign protocol, it makes much more sense for you to go long or to go short in the BitPro instead of the Bitcoin. Because if you are going, you have that little bit of leverage free using the BitPro.

• 19:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's fascinating to me that MoneyOnChain, Sovereign, I'm sure there will be others, are kind of taking a lot of the ideas that folks have run off and built on other chains and bringing it to Bitcoin and being able to build this in a way that really embodies and embraces that security and that censorship resistant and kind of the monetary policy, etc. What's next for MoneyOnChain in terms of both the short term and the long term kind of product roadmap? When asked for questions from the audience, a number of people were asking just around, how do you think about the continued development of the ecosystem and what other products you're either working on or could potentially work on over the long term?

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Well, we are in the MVP version of every part of the protocol. So there is a lot of new functionality that are coming to MoneyOnChain. For example, one of those functionalities is that you are going to be able to earn interest in your dollar chain inside the protocol. Another feature that is coming is that you are going to be able to lock your Bitcoin and get a loan in dollar chain. You will be able to go long 2X, 5X, 10X, 15X, and you will be able to go short also.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  So there is a lot of things coming for MoneyOnChain.

• 21:20Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think about the money on chain governance model, there's a couple of folks who asked me to get you to describe it in kind of the simplest terms possible. How does that governance model work? And then how does the MOC token fit into the governance model?

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Okay, the first thing that I have to clarify and make sure everybody understands is that the protocol is not fully decentralized today. We are in the process of going 100% centralized to going 100% decentralized. So the MOC token is the token that allows changes in the protocol. Today, the changes are still centralized. I think we need like two, four to six weeks more to go completely decentralized. But after we go completely decentralized, there is no way to change the protocol without MOC token holders approval.

• 22:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so when you start to think about how that governance model will evolve over time, do you need to get to the full decentralization? And that's kind of where you have the full utility and power of the governance model? Or do you feel like there's a lot of kind of importance and value on the governance model today, even though it might not be 100% decentralized yet?

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Well, today you have the full benefits in the MOC token in the sense that if you take your MOC in the protocol, you are going to get every penny from that the protocol generates. But as I told you, it's not fully decentralized today. But why we need decentralization? Because we need censorship resistance. That is why, because we want decentralization. There is no other reason to go fully decentralized, just to be fully censorship resistant.

• 23:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so when you think about that trade off between starting out 100% centralized and then moving to 100% decentralized, do you feel like that is the natural evolution or the natural path that every decentralized system is going to have to go through? Like you can't just launch and be decentralized on day one? Or do you think there is a path that some people, for whatever reason, who want to do that, could actually do it from a technical perspective or from an implementation perspective?

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Bueno, creo que la descentralización completa a descentralización completa es la forma en que tiene más sentido. Si piensas en Bitcoin, Bitcoin comenzó 100% descentralizado. Bitcoin comenzó con todo el código y todas las decisiones en Satoshi, con todo el poder de minería en Satoshi y todas las monedas en Satoshi. Y desde ese punto comenzó el camino a la descentralización. Las mismas cosas tienen que suceder en MoneyOnChain y otros protocolos. Es posible comenzar un protocolo descentralizado completamente desde el principio, probablemente, pero eso será muy ineficiente.

• 24:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Es ineficiente y probablemente muy difícil de hacer también, ¿verdad? A cierto nivel, ¿cómo coordinarías eso? Y si hay coordinación como esa, hay algún nivel de centralización de todos modos. Así que tiene sentido. ¿Cuál ha sido la mayor lección en construir MoneyOnChain y esta suite de productos que ahora tienes hoy? ¿Ha habido una sorpresa importante o algo que has aprendido a lo largo del camino que crees que es valioso para que la gente lo conozca?

• 24:56Speaker 02

  La mayor lección, no sé. Pensamos que sería mucho más fácil obtener fondos para hacer el proyecto. Comenzamos en el comienzo del invierno de criptomoestría. Ser argentino fue realmente difícil.

• 25:20Anthony Pompliano?

  ¿Por qué específicamente ser argentino? ¿Por qué hizo eso más difícil?

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Bueno, no sé. Tal vez, creo que al principio no teníamos credibilidad porque veníamos de América Latina tratando de hacer lo que todos pensaban que era imposible. Así que fue muy difícil al principio.

• 25:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Sí, tiene sentido. ¿Cuál es la única cosa que la gente entiende mal acerca de Argentina o la economía o la población allí?

• 25:56Speaker 02

  I think that people in the United States and Europe cannot get the idea that stable coins from Argentina are almost like a matter of life and death. Because you have the dollar or the euro, you can trust in the banks. In Latin America, people cannot trust in the bank. My father loses the savings of all his life like three times in his lifetime. And we have like 40, 50, sometimes more percent inflation that you cannot even imagine how it's like to live with that.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  I think that people tend to think that stable coins are very interesting to trade or to, I don't know, to play with lending protocols. But for people in Latin America, stable coins are really, really serious and important thing.

• 27:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's very sobering talking to somebody who kind of lives through something like that in terms of the importance of the technology, but also kind of the better life, the better world, the better kind of financial position that can usher in for somebody who understands these technologies and can leverage them to their benefit. I always ask everybody the same three questions to finish up, and then you'll get to ask me one question at the end. But before we do that, where can we send people to find you on the internet or find out more about Money on Chain?

• 27:32Speaker 02

  You can go to our page, moneyonchain.com. Then you have a community link and you can join us in Telegram or Discord, or you can follow us on Twitter.

• 27:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. All right, first question, what's the most important book that you've ever read?

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Very good questions. The most important book I ever read, it calls Los Borja. I never remember the author, but I'm born in a Catholic family. One day, my father gave me that book as a gift. That book really opens my mind. Now I am agnostic.

• 28:20Anthony Pompliano?

  What is the thing that drove kind of opening your mind or expanding your thought process?

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Sorry?

• 28:27Anthony Pompliano?

  What was the thing that you took from the book that really kind of opened your mind or forced you to expand your thinking?

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Oh, the book tells the history of the church and the corruption there.

• 28:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, the corruption of the church. Got it. Yeah, that is all around the world, a very unique situation that I think many people were taken by surprise, regardless of your religion or which kind of controversy has popped up. The second question is about your sleep schedule. So I've got my friends over at Eight Sleep. I got one of these thermal regulated beds. Basically, I can make it hot or cold. And I used to sleep like five or six hours, but now I sleep eight or nine. I turn it super cold, like an ice cube. And I'm a full convert to the sleep religion. I'm obsessed with making sure I get my eight or nine hours of sleep, so much to the point of where I literally beg them to let me invest in their company.

• 29:24Anthony Pompliano?

  What is your sleep schedule like and how has that evolved over the years?

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Um, I tend to sleep between seven and nine hours. I think that that is very important for my mind to work correctly. I used to sleep less a few years ago, but I don't know. Now I'm sleeping every day from seven to nine hours.

• 29:54Anthony Pompliano?

  That's good. As you get older, you start to realize, hey, that sleep thing's important. Makes sense.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's important.

• 30:01Anthony Pompliano?

  My last question for you is a little bit more fun, and you get to ask me one, is aliens. Are you a believer or a non-believer?

• 30:08Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a very good question. I don't know. I'm sure that there is aliens out there somewhere, but I'm not sure if they have visited us because the universe is very big and the distance are very huge. So.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Definitely, I believe there is aliens out there, but I don't know if they have been with us or not. I need evidence.

• 30:39Anthony Pompliano?

  I tend to agree with your analysis that they are likely to exist, but very unlikely to have come to Earth already. Who knows what will happen in the future, but I don't know if we have that evidence yet. What one question do you have for me to finish this up here?

• 30:55Speaker 02

  Do you like our protocol?

• 30:59Anthony Pompliano?

  I think it's very intelligent. And I think the thing that, if you said to me, what's the one thing that sticks out to me about Money on Chain is the ability to take ideas that I think you, I, and many other people agree are important for a financial system, whether it's stability and value, whether it's earning yield, governance, things like that, and build it on top of the most secure blockchain, the most decentralized blockchain, but still to take a lot of the innovation that's occurred across the entire industry, right? Whether it's somebody in the Bitcoin community or somebody in one of the other communities that has built some of this technology and being able to incorporate it in a very kind of unique and very adherent to the Bitcoin ethos way.

• 31:43Anthony Pompliano?

  So being non-custodial, being able to have that smart contract capability, but still doing it all with the security and kind of the decentralization of that base chain, I think is just a unique value proposition. And so most people who listen to the podcast will know that I'm a big fan of all sorts of decentralized financial applications being built on top of Bitcoin. I don't think that it's necessarily kind of a winner-take-all or a zero-sum game. I think there'll be coexistence of decentralized financial applications across various ecosystems. I'm personally most interested in the ones on top of Bitcoin because of some of the non-economic, you know, kind of advantages that they bring in in terms of freedom and censorship-resistant, etc.

• 32:25Anthony Pompliano?

  But it seems like, you know, you sovereign, the RSK folks are just pioneering a very unique part of the market that my hope is more and more people start to pay attention to, learn about, start using the products, and kind of eventually become advocates for over time.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  Okay, great.

• 32:44Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, so MoneyOnChain.com is where we can send people to learn more.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Sorry, I didn't get you.

• 32:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Moneyonchain.com is where we can send people to learn more?

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. Moneyonchain.com and you can follow us in Twitter at Money on Chain. Okay.

• 33:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Listen, Max, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I really, really enjoyed it. I'm a big fan of what you guys are building and we'll definitely have to have you come back on as you guys get more progress and get more products launched over time.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Thank you for inviting me.