#499 Danny Masters on Asset Management in Crypto

Danny Masters is the Chairman of Coinshares, an asset management firm focused on Bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, and other digital assets. In this conversation, we discuss inside baseball markets, digitization, driverless banks, distribution, digital asset investment strategies, and deregulated markets. ======================= The Stacks 2.0 mainnet launched on January 14, 2021. Stacks, which you may recognize as Blockstack, is a layer-1 blockchain that uses the Bitcoin blockchain as a secure base-layer and enables developers to harness its power in new ways. Stacks makes Bitcoin more than digital gold, enabling apps and smart contracts on Bitcoin--unlocking innovation, new value, and a new way to earn BTC. Visit http://www.stacks.co for more information. ======================= Coinbase Wallets are adding support for .crypto and .zil domains through their partnership with Unstoppable Domains. Unstoppable Domains provides an all-in-one solution for blockchain domains. You can send money using these new domains instead of long Bitcoin wallet addresses, while also storing your domain in Coinbase's collectibles section. Go to unstoppabledomains.com in the dapp browser to register and manage your domains. ======================= As one of the largest and oldest Bitcoin exchanges in the world, Kraken is consistently named one of the best places to buy and sell crypto online, thanks to our excellent service, low fees, versatile funding options and rigorous security standards -- but this is only part of the story. We’ve been on the forefront of the blockchain revolution since 2011: http://www.kraken.com =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off. Danny Masters is the chairman of CoinShares, an asset management firm focused on Bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, and other digital assets. In this conversation, we discuss inside baseball markets, digitization, driverless banks, distribution, digital asset investment strategies, and deregulated markets. I really enjoyed this conversation with Danny, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into the episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is Stacks. Apps and smart contracts are coming to Bitcoin along with a brand-new way to earn Bitcoin.

• 0:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Stacks 2.0 will give developers powerful new tools, including a smart contract language called Clarity that was made for Bitcoin and jointly developed with Algorand, as well as a new consensus mechanism that rewards the network with both Stacks tokens and Bitcoin. Stacks, which you may recognize as Blockstack, unlocks new use cases and functionality for the world's most secure blockchain, Bitcoin, without modifying Bitcoin itself. The door for developers and entrepreneurs to activate the billions of dollars of capital currently passively held on Bitcoin are now wide open. Proof of Transfer, or POX, is the groundbreaking consensus mechanism that makes this all possible. POX connects the Stacks blockchain to Bitcoin, opening up STX mining on the network and enabling stacking where STX holders can earn regular Bitcoin rewards for supporting consensus.

• 1:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Stacks, apps, and smart contracts on Bitcoin. You can visit stacks.co for more information. Again, if you want apps and smart contracts on Bitcoin, go to stacks.co for more information. Next up is unstoppable domains. They're absolutely killing it. They've developed human-readable domain names, or wallet addresses. So if you want someone to send you crypto, whether it's Bitcoin or something else, to a digital wallet, instead of having to send that long string of random numbers and letters, you now can send a .crypto domain. So for me, I have pomp.crypto. If I want someone to send me Bitcoin, I say, "Yo, send it to pomp.crypto." When they type that into the wallet address of Coinbase Wallet, for example, I then will receive the Bitcoin that they're sending to me.

• 2:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Human readable domains are a game changer for all sorts of payment use cases. You've got people like OKCoin that are now actually supporting these human readable domains as well. So head on over and go check out unstoppabledomains.com. The domain names are up for sale. Once somebody buys one, you can't get it. It's first come, first served. So just like if you were to go to GoDaddy and buy a .com in the legacy world, you gotta go to unstoppabledomains.com and buy the actual domain name. If you don't buy the name and somebody else buys it, you can't get it. So head on over to unstoppabledomains.com, buy the name you want today. Whether it's your name, your company name, or something you think might be valuable in the future.

• 2:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Unstoppabledomains.com, Igotpomp.crypto, you can't get it, but go buy the name that you want. All right, lastly is Kraken, K-R-A-K-E-N, Kraken. One of the largest and oldest Bitcoin exchanges in the world. Kraken is consistently named one of the best places to buy and sell crypto online, thanks to their excellent service. They have low fees and versatile funding options and rigorous security standards. But that is only part of the story. Kraken has been on the forefront of the blockchain revolution since 2011. I've had Jesse, the CEO and founder on the podcast before. Others like Dan Held are there. They are fantastic. They really, really adhere to the ethos of Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency industry.

• 3:38Anthony Pompliano?

  So if you want to trade on the largest and oldest Bitcoin exchange in the world, or one of the largest and oldest Bitcoin exchanges in the world, head on over to Kraken. You can go to kraken.com, K-R-A-K-E-N.com, kraken.com. All right, let's get in this episode with Danny. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 4:27Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Danny here with me. Thank you so much for doing this, sir.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  You're welcome. Good to be here.

• 4:33Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. Let's just jump into your background. You've had a long storied career in the finance industry. Where did you start? And what did you do before you found Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies?

• 4:41Speaker 02

  Well, nothing as interesting as Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. I was a science, math, science major, graduate, postgraduate. I attended Imperial College Business School, which actually led to a lot of opportunities in crypto, great crypto research lab they have there today. And I did the thing that was de rigueur back in, I guess, 1990, which was you get a job at a big investment bank. Amazing how times have changed, but I started off with Solomon Brothers. You know, these were the heydays of Solomon Brothers, the things they wrote the Liar's Poker book about, and a lot of those characters I actually knew. And, and we started in the, I started in the commodities trading group called Fiber Energy. I did that for seven years.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  And then I pivoted to JP Morgan, a different kind of approach to commodities, but a much more well-heeled client base and a much bigger sort of global footprint and reputation. And I bought commodities trading to JP Morgan, end up running the global energy trading portfolio as well as various other functions within the bank. So I learned my craft over the, you know, during that, that decade or 12 years and then, you know, I had the opportunity to start on my own, which again was very much what people did back then. You do your time with banks, you build your clients, build your reputation, and then you go on your own. I was fortunate enough to get a very big investment from Lewis Bacon, more capital to start us on our way.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  He seeded our program with about a quarter of a billion dollars, which was actually real money back in those days in 99. And not anymore, but uh and we, you know, we had a, we had a fantastic uh uh ten, twelve year run and uh we had the general approach to do three things. One, explain what at the time, believe it or not, was a difficult investment thesis for investors. Investors didn't really see commodities as an asset class, sort of a trading vehicle. Two, assemble a team of experts. Well, that wasn't hard to do because there were a lot of people in and around the commodities business. And then three, build vehicles fit for investment

• 6:53Speaker 02

  and and then uh and sell those. So we did that. We had some some big themes at the time. A lot of that was to do with commodities consumption growth in Asia. Uh we told that story. We put that team together. We built those products and we had a very successful run. Um but like a lot of things, you know, these things eventually reach, you know, a new valuation. Commodities did reach a new valuation. Uh again, when we started oil, just as one example, was around ten dollars. It was, you know, a hundred, hundred or so when we finished, you know, a thousand percent rally, not much in crypto land, but but was big in commodities. Uh but then the interest kind of waned and so we were looking around

• 7:33Speaker 02

  for something else to do. I happened across a chart, a price chart, and I looked at this price chart and I didn't know what it was actually because it doesn't have a title on it. And it turned out it was Bitcoin. It was about twenty or thirty, forty dollars at the time. And having looked at thousands of commodity price charts over a long period of time, took one look at that and I said that market's got real energy. Uh I think it's going places. Let's figure out what it is. And that was my uh that was my very first exposure. That was in twenty twelve.

• 8:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you remember how you found the chart? Was it like on a media site?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  I think it was flashed. I think it flashed up on CNBC sort of late at night, you know, when no one was watching. Um and uh I I just kind of caught it in my eyes on this whatever I was doing. I just noticed it and I think it was on TV.

• 8:20Anthony Pompliano?

  It's amazing. Uh it it's so funny to me. It reminds me a lot of stories of uh you know, some of these uh kind of legendary macro traders where people say, look, they could sit down in front of a screen. It doesn't matter what the actual asset is. They just look at the charts and you know, they get to work to start making money.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Well, a chart is very much the footprints of all the people that are in the marketplace. They leave trails and and it is, you know, it takes a long time to both develop this sort of pattern recognition in your mind and your eye. And it takes a long time to then be able to kind of moderate, modulate your enthusiasm, your fear and your greed to the point where you can then navigate, you know, a chart that you understand and actually walk away and make money. So and that is an acquired skill. Some of the people acquire it easier than others, but I did manage to do that in my days.

• 9:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's amazing. When you think about what you're doing today, you're the chairman of CoinShares. Walk through us, you know, how do you go from seeing that chart saying, wait, I should go look at this to today being the chairman of quite a large business?

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Well, I tell you, Pumps, it's sometimes it's more by luck than judgment, really. And I've got to be honest about that. So what I did, I mean, if I had had something else to do in the five minutes where I saw that chart, I would not be having this conversation with you. I'd probably be one of the very late newcomers to crypto, you know, many years down the road. But but what I did was I thought, you know what, I'm going to give that a try. And I sent $10,000 of my own money to a Chinese agricultural bank that I'd never heard of, had no expectation of ever seeing it again or anything in return. But soon, about two weeks later, I got a credit on this little known exchange called

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Mt. Gox and I started trading Bitcoin. And and that was fine, and that was nothing really new to me. It was a pretty crappy exchange, I realized immediately. Obviously, that was prescient, but but what I did do is two things. I took the coins off the exchange and I put them in an armory wallet. I don't know if you remember armory wallet, but it was sort of the only cold storage wallet that was around back then. And I started to sort of, you know, make transactions, sign transactions, send them around. Uh, and I thought that's pretty cool, right? Secondly, I locked myself in a room for about two days. And I hand solved the block and I had to get out my old math textbooks.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Um, but I actually hand solved the block, did the secure hash algorithms, did the Merkel trees, did, you know, put the block headers together. Uh, came up with the magic number, um, and I went, that's pretty cool. And, you know, as a, as a student scientist, you know, uh, you realize that a lot of scientific breakthroughs are actually building, someone's put together the existing building blocks uh, of other, you know, interesting math. And some of that stuff was actually pretty new. I mean, S H A was a pretty new thing. Um, compared to, you know, technologies that build other, you know, sum up to build other new technologies. So did that. And I'm like, wow, I'm now, now I'm sold on the tech. Uh, and then I, then I happened across Wentz's Cesars.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  And I saw a talk that he did in person and, um, he was very inspirational. Uh, we ended up doing a lot of business together. Uh, subsequently, he became the custodian for our one of, for our original flagship fund. But, um, you know, he just went through the characteristics of money, the store value, unit of accounting, exchange and all the sub characteristics. And then scaled Bitcoin against fiat, against gold, against seashells, against tally sticks. And I was like, that was it. I was done, you know, I, and I, and, uh, so I, and what I thought about Bitcoin was just like in commodities. There, there are, there are sort of two ways to look at the future. You can look at the future and say, you know, this is going to happen at some point, but markets don't give you the time to wait.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Markets always react before you get to the future. And I've seen that many, many times. So what you really want to do as a commodities trader is you want to say, Is the is the story, is the narrative going to be believable? Is the narrative going to be bought on the basis of these future projections? Because if the narrative becomes popular, the commodity becomes popular. And I was just certain that the narrative around Bitcoin was, you know, before we proved anything or disproved anything, but the narrative around Bitcoin was very compelling. And and so what began as a punt, you know, just just buy some Bitcoin and see what happens. I couldn't have imagined the segue into where we are today.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  So today, CoinShares is Europe's largest digital asset manager. Amongst other things, we have a series of very successful exchange traded notes that are traded all across Europe, partly under an XBT Provider banner, but also under our CoinShares Digital Securities banner. We actually, you know, have a number of sort of different products in that space. And today, I think we're pushing four and a half billion US dollars in assets under management. You know, we were very early to the space. We picked up a lot of the very early traffic. And it's just been, what's been incredible is how few people have sold, you know, despite the fact that their holdings have gone up in many cases quite dramatically.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  You know, all these things turn over. It's a very liquid instrument and it's, you know, tracks the price of crypto very, very well. And we, you know, but it is amazing that even through the ups and downs that we've had to get to where we are, how sticky the number of Bitcoins we have has been regardless. So that's one thing we do. The other thing we do, you know, we didn't plan to do it, but we sort of had to do it, you know. Back in the day, there wasn't a lot of market making in our type of securities. So people were like, oh, you know, you listed a Bitcoin security, we don't touch Bitcoin. And today, there were 25 market makers in our securities. But back then, we actually had to do it ourselves. So, you know, we stumbled into a trading business where we now have, you know, fifteen

• 14:32Speaker 02

  or twenty people employed full-time around the world doing nothing but making markets, not only on our securities, but, you know, we're very big market makers on all of the big exchanges around the world, you know, short-term, medium-term, very high-frequency stuff. And, um, and that all grew out of the necessity to actually be a market maker in our own product. So I think we did, you know, I think in, uh, twenty nineteen, we did about two billion in turnover in twenty twenty, we did twenty, uh, ten billion in turnover. And I think this year, we're gonna, we're gonna blow that number completely out of the water. So, so those are really our two big businesses, okay? So it's exchange-traded notes and trading. Um, but we do a number of other things, too. Uh, we have, um, we have a great, uh, golden commodity, uh, golden cryptocurrency, uh,

• 15:17Speaker 02

  index called CGCI that we built at Imperial College, my alma mater, over a sort of two-and-a-half year research project. Um, that's got European benchmark status and we're gonna be issuing some, uh, products on that. In fact, the light version just went live on token sets. Um, we are a stablecoin issuer. We issue a gold-backed token out of Switzerland. Um, about twenty-five million dollars of, uh, of coins on both the Bitcoin and the Ethereum network that rail there. And we think that stablecoin issuance is very important. So, um, that is sort of a proof-of-concept company that we have up and running and, and issuance now. Um, we have a big activity with Kemenu.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Kemenu is our registered licensed custodian depository, uh, based in the Channel Islands. That's in partnership with Ledger Labs and Nomura, uh, who are the major shareholder there. And it's an excellent product, uh, it's a high-quality, robust, um, strong fiduciary custodian for digital assets and it's gonna form a big part of what we do going forward. We do a lot of research and people like James Butterfield does portfolio research for investors looking to put commodity assets in their portfolio. Chris Bendixson really focused on Bitcoin network, Bitcoin mining as a real strong voice in that space. We do advisory, broker dealer license in America.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  I would bring some business to market as we speak, where we're helping various companies, you know, raise capital. So it's a vast array of things that we're doing. I suppose it could go on, but we're becoming, I think, almost like a boutique investment bank where we're advising, we're trading, we're structuring, and we're listing products.

• 17:01Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think back to the early days of the commodity business, I know that there's a lot of similarities that you see. Maybe talk a little bit about the oil market and kind of what happened in those early days and how that compares to crypto today.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  It is remarkable how much this rhymes with the past. And I, you know, so let's take, you know, the 20-year period between sort of, I don't know, eighty-five and oh-five or something in that bracket. And, you know, at the beginning of that period, there was no oil price and there was oil. But oil was the regulated business, really, and regulated prices. And oil was $40, said the Saudis, and that was it, you know? And then everyone would say, well, you're 40, I'm 35. And there was no freely traded market. And I was actually in the oil market and it was a logistics business, just had to get stuff from A to B. And then the price deregulated and all of a sudden it started to move. And with that, you know, in came Goldman Sachs, in came Morgan Stanley, Drexel, Dun &

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Lambert was around at the time, AIG, you know, the insurance company. And they started to get involved. People started to build big trading companies that were trading merchants, you know, sort of not oil companies, not refiners, but people just sort of participating in the industry itself. Contracts started to grow, you know, one exchange, two exchanges, three exchanges. Um, started to build derivatives, started to build options markets, started to grow. Um, and and that that was a very steady increase in activity, let's say, from the late eighties uh to the late nineties. And and the market, you know, I I when I started in that marketplace, there may have been a hundred people that traded oil in the world.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  I probably knew all of them. And by the end of that first phase, there might have been a thousand people in the world trading oil, and I knew most of them. Um, but then something, you know, very different happened. Two things happened, actually. One, the oil market went electronic. So it was no longer sort of a voice in over the counter, like a lot of other markets went electronic. But more importantly, um, I knew this new theme you started to emerge. Now, the old way of thinking about commodities and what all the people in the, I call, inside baseball section of that twenty year, the first ten years of the twenty years. Everyone talked to each other, everyone looked at the same thing. And they were looking at things like, is there enough oil in this particular arena, be it Europe, the Gulf Coast, uh Asia,

• 19:22Speaker 02

  for the next two, three, four weeks? And and that was usually determined by, is oil being arbitrage away? Is the weather bad and ships can't sail or can't load? Is OPEC doing something funny with the supply? Um, is there some political strife? You know, is there a Gulf War going on somewhere? And and it was all about what happens, you know, four weeks from now. And that's the only thing that mattered. In fact, there barely was a forward market in crude oil back then. It was all traded in that very spot period. But what happened in in the late nineties was we and others began to realize that there was a long term story around commodities, in particular crude oil, and it was to do with China. Uh, China, if you just did the simple math, you know, how many people live in this country now?

• 20:07Speaker 02

  What is the birth rate? How many people will be living there in fifteen years? How many of them are driving cars now? How much gas are their cars going to be used? It was very obvious that the prices of crude oil was, uh, you could not fill that gap. Uh, and you could have said that about copper, about iron ore, and about multiple commodities that China ended up consuming a lot of. And so what became, what then happened was. Instead of a four-week narrative, a four-week time horizon for the bullish bearish narrative, it became a 10-year horizon for the bullish bearish narrative. And that's when the institutions arrived. And I feel that's the point we've been through since September, since Paul Jones's famous investor letter, which I think was a seminal moment in commodities.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Funny enough, Paul and I did business way back in the commodity space as well. And so to see a guy like that, and he is smart, right, and he is very well-funded, and he's a fabulous trader, to see him come into the crypto space, to me, that just rang a lot of bells back then. And clearly, it was the precursor to all of the things we've seen in the last six months or so. So anyway, along came, in this second phase, along came these institutions, who weren't worried about this four-week horizon, but worried about the 10-year horizon. And that absolutely totally changed the way the commodity market even functioned. And it led to a very protracted rally in prices. And the technologies that were spawned on the back of it,

• 21:35Speaker 02

  because the price of oil needed to go up to create the extra calories and the extra joules and whatever units of energy you want to use. Because at the prices it was before, there just wasn't enough to go around. And it spurred technologies like wind farms, biodiesel, syn crude, you know, energy-saving electric cars. I mean, all of these things kind of spawned from the fact that if oil was still $10 a day, none of those things would exist. So not only was it a huge portent for the energy business, but it actually changed technology, energy technology forever.

• 22:10Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think through a lot of what we're kind of seeing play out here, deregulation is obviously a very big part of the story. But also, it sounds like the commodities business in the early days was this like inside-baseball game, right? Inside-baseball, not from a negative connotation, just like you had to be paying attention non-stop. You had to really be in the flow of things. You had to understand the nuances and the details of the market. And the people who did that had a significant advantage. It sounds identical to crypto today, right? If you're not paying attention 24/7, you're likely not to do very well because there is so much nuance, things change so quickly. Do you see similarities between those two things?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  I absolutely do. And, you know, let's face it, a lot of us have been sitting around here for the last decade. And, you know, we probably spent half that decade going, is there going to be an ETF? Is there not going to be ETF? Is there going to be an ETF?

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Just this craziness around whether there's going to be an ETF or not. And again, I think a lot of the people coming in now are are are just looking at the sort of a little bit of a demise of the dollar. A little bit of loosening of this US dollar hegemony around the world. They're looking at sort of debasement in the fiat money system, which is, you know, usually happens to most fiat currencies over a long period of time. But maybe been accelerated by some of the balance sheet damage done at the Fed and other central banks. And they're definitely coming in and and they're looking at this this short term dynamic. So you've got the right clients coming in, but probably with the wrong dynamic.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  I think that what they're going to start to to figure out is that the narrative around crypto is is much, much bigger than that. And it's around replumbing the financial system and probably some other systems as well. But replumbing the financial system is long overdue. And I don't think even the most adventurous people coming to this market like Michael Saylor, like the Ruffer Fund, you know, that bought a whole bunch of Bitcoin in one slug and some of the other names you're seeing. They haven't been watching this market 24 seven for 10 years. And I don't think they really, you know, you need to have a kind of a gut feel about where things are going because there are so many moving parts.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  But I, you know, I'm I've begun to really develop this theory about where we're going to be in five to 10 years' time. And I think that's something which, I mean, I have to hang on to that when I, you know, guide the company, when we make long term investments, when we take risks. That's something very much in my mind, but I think that's going to become much more common. And I think we're going to see, you know, I I've sort of tried to concatenate these thoughts into the three Ds. Digitization, driverless banks and distribution. And I think those are those are going to be the the sort of north stars of of where we're going in digital assets.

• 25:00Anthony Pompliano?

  I I want to talk through these three Ds because it's fascinating to me. I've used different terminology than you have, but I think that they're thematically dead on. Let's start maybe with digitization first and can you elaborate a little bit on that one?

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Right, let's let's start from the point of what happens in traditional financial systems in a simplified version. You have a central bank that issues electronic money.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Layer one, layer two is a commercial bank that performs banking services. And layer three is a distribution which is normally your bank account. Now, there are many flavors of all those layers, but that is basically the way it happens. I think we're going to move into the system where where this all changes. And the digitization bucket, what do we have there right now? We have about one point, one point five trillion of digital assets currently. But the vast majority of them are either native coins or or some sort of E L C twenty tokens that have some sort of utility like a Binance Coin, for example. Um, tho- those are what we really have. We have a smattering of gold that, you know, Chad Gascarelli, myself and a few others have put out there.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  We have a smattering of of securities that T zero and open markets and these guys have put out there. Uh, you've got a smattering of real estate and Cerejas deal and all these other other bits and pieces. And you have actually quite a big slug in terms of fiat money, particularly Tether. Um, let's not go down that rabbit hole, but but there's, you know, there's a, there's a, uh, and I know, and those assets are the ones that aren't native coins or yeah, or or or just utility tokens, right? And that's one point five trillion. The next thing that will happen is central bank digital currencies are going to go into that top bucket. And that's going to magnify that one point five trillion by five, ten, I don't know, something like that.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Uh, and not only will it actually boost dramatically the amount of stuff coming in the top of the funnel. Um, but it will be a siren call for lots of other things to be digitized at a much higher uh kind of rate and much higher volume. So so that, I think, is is where we start um in that digitization bucket. And I think, you know, I think it's important to say for those who, I don't think there are that many people left, that those who sort of question the usefulness of a of a of a digital sovereign currency. The advantages for a central bank of doing a CBDC, when you look at the cost of running a physical money system, the slowness of reporting events in a real monetary system,

• 27:30Speaker 02

  the black market, the money laundering situation, the cutting people off of their money, let's not get into libertarian side of it, but you know, obviously it's desirable. But most importantly, you know, it gives central, you know, digital money, assuming it's all digital money, gives a central bank the ability to impose negative interest rates, which you cannot do where there's cash in circulation. So there are huge advantages for central banks and that's going to happen. So the digitization bucket will grow.

• 28:01Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think through kind of how the digitization of all assets ends up then kind of interfacing with this idea of driverless banks, I've called it kind of automated finance in the past, but I think it's pretty much the same idea. How does that lead to the proliferation of these driverless banks?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Okay, so again, let's go do the comparison. Who does banking services in the old world? Banks. What banking services do they do? They do borrowing, lending, hypofication, derivatives, cross-chain operability like Fedwire talks to Swift, custody and trading, right? Those are what they do. Think about, you know, again, this crazy growth that we've seen in the last nine months, right? Maker, sushi, uni, yarn, synthetics, DYDX, all the, you know, the

• 29:00Speaker 02

  bit goes and anchorages and curves and so on. And also, you know, there's great platforms like Xerion and Zapify that actually kind of sit on top of all this stuff and can actually report what's going on with all the components. But if you add those companies up, right? You add those companies up. And they do what banks do. I think they do it extremely well. And if you if you can imagine, it's widely reported yesterday, for example, Coinbase's stock now trading at seventy seven billion in the private markets. It'll be a hundred day one of listing at least. Um, they may work. They've already been buying driverless bank companies. They bought BlockFi, which is, you know, an interest-bearing platform.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  They bought Bison Trails, staking a service company that will similarly, you know, be generative for proof of stake networks in terms of generating yield. Um, you know, I don't know how they go about um getting involved with these other companies. They could buy governance tokens. They could buy equity. They could start stuff themselves, obviously. But if you if you take those names that I just mentioned, the driverless banking service companies, if you like, uh, and you looked at all of their network value, I can't speak to their equity capitalization, but their network value right now. Take a half a dozen of them, you're probably going to get to fifteen billion dollars. Add in, you know, eighty five from Coinbase, a hundred billion dollars. A hundred billion dollars, you'd have the seventh biggest bank in the United States, and it would be a driverless bank.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  You know, all of those things could happen essentially in your Coinbase wallet, probably. And and they wouldn't be, you know, a centralized bank. It would be you want to borrow, you're borrowing from BlockFi, you want to stake, you're doing it with Bison Trails. Uh, you want to, you know, do something else, maybe you do it with Compound Finance, or or you want to trade, you do it with Uniswap, who knows? But but that that's there. And, you know, you could see that within a year, which is which is a stunning thought, really.

• 30:50Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think through centralization versus decentralization, can we get to a world where all of the infrastructure is decentralized and is built on these open protocols? Or do we still need centralized entities that are kind of human driven?

• 31:02Speaker 02

  It's a great question. Um. I mean, it's something I've only been been thinking about very recently. I think probably in the first instance, yes, you end up with with a centralized. I think it's going to be someone like Coinbase, maybe even us, you know, that puts together, stitches together enough of the regulatory oversight and and and the fiduciary structure and the technology to sort of make that come alive. And I think that certainly something we're going to be looking to do in the next year or two. And I'm sure others as well. Ultimately, though, if you look at, if you look at the way, you know, obviously the Ethereum network has its issues that need to be resolved. But if you look at the Metamask wallet, and I like the iPhone Metamask wallet, and you look at how

• 31:47Speaker 02

  it connects with a lot of these DeFi companies, and picking, you know, services from the shelf, and just basically integrating them very easily within that wallet, it's actually happening on a decentralized basis. So you, you know, what, what, what is put in place with Metamask is kind of a framework from which you can go pick and mix your banking services from any number of decentralized providers. So, so actually, I think, I think there is a case for it happening in a decentralized way.

• 32:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. To me, what becomes really interesting is if you can get a truly decentralized system put together on these open protocols, you really start to change the way that people interface with financial services, right? So the easy example is just an accessibility play, hey, anyone, anywhere in the world, regardless of race, religion, geography, education, wealth, et cetera, get internet connection, you know, you're in the game. But more importantly, I think actually is, there's a lot of inside baseball that goes on on the Wall Street and kind of more exotic financial services side. When that stuff starts to get kind of democratized, you know, there's good and bad that comes from that. But, but I think that that's the world that people aren't quite there yet. Like, that's a kind of a second order effect.

• 33:00Anthony Pompliano?

  And so what happens when all of a sudden there's now decentralized, you know, electronic trading? And you're somehow able to plug into that? Or what about some of these exotic lending, you know, mechanisms that are used right now by centralized kind of intelligent people?

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Right? Yep.

• 33:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, I mean, what are you, what are you most worried about as we move to a decentralized world? Are there risks that you identify that you're like, hey, look, we got to be careful here?

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Look, the, the, the elephant in the room in this interplay between, you know, a totally decentralized investing and trading world versus Wall Street is really, you know, how much do, how much does the world need to protect investors from themselves?

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Now,

• 33:46Speaker 02

  We we I'm not sure what the exact answer to that question is. What I do know is we're definitely too far in one direction right now. And and I think that, you know, the new generation, the the post millennial, the Gen X, Gen Z, whatever they are, post millennial generation, uh, really don't, you know, think like that, want to think like that, want to be helped from them from themselves. Um, so

• 34:11Speaker 02

  if you if you think about how, you know, in the post wo- wo- world financial crisis, regulation, uh, stiffened and Dodd-Frank and Sarbanes-Oxley, where all of a sudden sort of a director of a company, you know, you can go to jail for, you know, financial misconduct. And, you know, that sounds normal now, but it was it was kind of shocking at the time. Um, but these rules have become really, really stiff. And, you know, J P Morgan, the doyen, uh, and the leader of, you know, the the the Wall Street financial world, last time I checked, was pushing on twenty billion dollars in fines. Um, now, I'm not saying J P Morgan's a bad company. J, I used to work there. It's a great company. What I'm saying is that that there's kind of this unholy alliance between this reg- the regulators

• 34:56Speaker 02

  within the regulatory perimeter and the huge banks within the regulatory perimeter. And the banks like, oh, please don't fine me a billion, Mr. Regulator, but they fine them anyway, and they pay it because they can pay it. And it just puts up this moat around that business where very few companies can afford to tread because you can't make that kind of mistake as a small company or a medium sized company. Um, and it, you know, and so so regulation becomes almost a defense to a business like J P Morgan. Uh, and and I think that's kind of putting the boot on the wrong foot. And that's that's why it's all gone too far. Um, you know, on the other hand, let's take the episode of, you know, with GameStop last week.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Sure, uh, there was probably a soft, you know, a soft underbelly to that particular trade. A heavily over-shored stock, uh, some smart people figured it out. And, and they, they made that move. Um, but I don't think, you know, the Wall Street Bets community is smart enough to fight Steve Cohen uh, at point seventy-three. I'm, I'm sorry, and I think you're gonna, I think they're going, they might win a skirmish, they might win a battle, but they're gonna lose the war. It is that simple. Um, so that, that kind of, you know, that's the other extreme, that's ultimate, you know, democracy where people are just going, you know, absolutely nuts on the internet. And it didn't last very long, but there's a middle ground there somewhere.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Um, I, I think people are, and I think especially the younger generation are a lot smarter, the Robinhood generation are a lot smarter than than a lot of the big banks and a lot of the regulators give them credit for. And, and I think they want some more financial freedom, uh, and I think it's behooves everybody in, when we, you know, create this bright new, uh, digital financial system of the future, that we do not remake it in the same image of what went before. And like, I spend a lot of my time working with regulators, um, moving their knowledge along, you know, they've only just got their heads around Bitcoin. You know, some sort of DeFi swap on a token versus an index is just way beyond their thinking right now.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, what we need to do more of as coin shares and what we're going to do, uh, you know, in our sort of leadership role in this industry, uh, is where there are gray areas, we're going to exercise our judgment. We are, we are fit and proper people, we are going to innovate, we are going to create new products, uh, we are going to market them and trade them responsibly. And we are going to help the regulators understand what we're doing, because they won't, it won't fit into buckets that they currently understand. And they'll never catch up with that, by the way, uh, the pace that things are going right now. And we're gonna act responsibly, and if we trip, and if someone, you know, says, oh, you know, this falls into that

• 37:40Speaker 02

  regulatory bucket, and because we are interpreting it this way, and you're interpreting that way, we'll take it to court and we'll make some precedent, we'll make some precedent law. Uh, and we'll try and, we'll try and like blaze this trail where, uh, we actually form new rules and, and rules that respect uh, the independence and the authority of the individual a little bit more, while still respecting, you know, the risk management for those people that would not otherwise be comfortable.

• 38:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. The third D is distribution. So you have kind of digitization, you have driverless banks and you have distribution. Elaborate on the distribution side.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Okay, so the distribution, again, going back to the old system as a parallel, this is really about who owns the customer, right? And the customer is owned by the bank, right? You have your HSBC account, your Bank of America account, your, probably your Fidelity account. And they own you and pretty much all your investments end up there and all your payments come to and from there. And that's why, you know, banks pay you to move from one bank to another because they want to be the endpoint for your financial activity. That's a valuable thing. And that's all going to change. So, you know, who's going to own, and it's actually my friend Charlie McGarrett at blockchain.com, who I'll credit this statement, who's going to own the endpoints?

• 38:55Speaker 02

  And the endpoints, I think, are fascinating. And if you look at what happened in retail. You know, I used to go to the shops, right? You know, you go to the shoe shop, I go to the cheese shop, I go to the camping store. And now I just go to Amazon because Amazon owned me as a client and Amazon is the endpoint for retail. So, once they own you, it's actually behooving the producers to go through Amazon because they probably cannot find you as efficiently. And they certainly can't distribute to you as efficiently as Amazon can. And that, I think, is going to happen in digital assets. So, question is, who's going to be the amazon.com? Who's going to own those endpoints?

• 39:34Speaker 02

  So let's just talk about a few candidates. So candidate number one is the big exchange, Coinbase, Binance. Those pretty much Gemini if they get really, really lucky. And those are the kind of candidates we're talking about. Can they, can they create enough wallets to bootstrap an ecosystem of endpoints like that? Probably not, in my view.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Let's look at some native blockchain wallet people. My great friends, glad to see Peter Smith at blockchain.com, very successful raise from some very high quality investors. And blockchain.com have, and I've followed those guys since they had 50,000 wallets. They've now got, you know, 80 million wallets. And it's not been an explosion, it's been an organic growth, it's been a little steeper or a little shallower. But it, you know, it wasn't like it doubled in six weeks. You know, it's just grown and grown and grown. It's actually very illuminating about how you grow these networks organically. It's tough and you have to start early and you have to go for a long time. But they've got a lot of wallets, so they could become the endpoint.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  Then you've got, you know, people that haven't thrown their hat in the ring. Google, Amazon themselves, PayPal, obviously are close to the space with lots and lots of endpoints. But perhaps the most interesting one is the Facebook Libra, Calibra, DM project. And let's just do the math here, you know, with 1.5 million unique wallet operations in a given day versus 1.8 billion unique user operations on their platform. If they put a digital wallet on your Facebook or your Insta or whatever it is, or three of them, WhatsApp as well. You could see the endpoint architecture of crypto blow up by a thousandfold in a day.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  And I'm not sure there's many other applications that would be taken up so quickly and be so, you know, global as, as a financial app on the Facebook or WhatsApp. So that is probably what's going to happen. And, and that is, you know, that, that will open up an enormous corridor forward for all kinds, down that whole channel. You digitize at the top, you do your banking services, you know, with this cadre of people centralized or, or with some human intervention and it ends up in your, in your wallet. And the only, the only final point I think about there is these, these new concepts of, of sort of individual domains. So I own, you know, Danny Masters dot ETH.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  And what's happening is that these end, these domain endpoints are now becoming integrated with individual blockchains. So I can send my ETH to my own address, but I can also send other stuff to my address. And if those endpoint.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Domains ended up syncing with, who knows, you know, the Polkadot blockchain, the ETH blockchain, the Bitcoin blockchain, and so on and so forth. It's quite possible that those domains could just roll out natively. That's another interesting concept as well. I don't know quite whether I get the energy to do that, but that's a concept. And that, I think, is the distribution layer. I think it's probably the most valuable real estate in the whole ecosystem in terms of what it'd be worth to the person that succeeds.

• 42:48Anthony Pompliano?

  What you're basically describing is like the ultimate vision, right? It is a decentralized digital currency that is then being whipped around in decentralized financial applications. And it's all done in an automated digital open protocol system that essentially says, you know, fuck the banks, fuck the legacy system. We are going to take all the great ideas you've had and the monopoly on profits that you've had. And we are going to bust open the wall and we're going to provide this to people around the world just simply by having an internet connection. And I think that the big controversy or the big debate is that is kind of the most,

• 43:28Anthony Pompliano?

  you know, powerful and obviously value creation perspective to have is like that world's going to happen. We're nowhere near that today. And so the question is just, you know, how far along that spectrum do we make it, right? Does it end up, you know, halfway or all the way? And I don't think people really know, but it sounds like that's really what you guys are focused on is pushing us as close to that as possible.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, and again, it's, you know, we know the direction of travel. We know the direction, you know, we know, you know, we want to go down that path.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  And then it becomes a little bit tactical. So, you know, what good example of, you know, how this becomes sort of a tactical battle is, you know, for some reason, there is a big, bright dividing line between custodial services and non-custodial services. So, and why do we even need these custodial services? I'll tell you why, because. Blockchains as we've known them so far, and that may be changing, have been very much two dimensional. You have your blockchain runs down here, your Bitcoin blockchain here, your Ethereum blockchain here, you know, your EOS blockchain here, and they don't really talk to each other very well. But what we've discovered is that there are huge benefits in cross-chain operability. And hence, we have the whole wrapping phenomenon.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Now, for example, our W D G L D Ethereum-based gold token is based on our D G L D gold-backed token, which is on the Bitcoin network. And I won't bore you with why, but there are good reasons to have the main net on Bitcoin and the Ethereum contract there. And so, and so we do a wrapping. And, uh, and there are other people doing much bigger wrapping. So, you know, W B T C is $6 billion now with wrapped Bitcoins. So that Bitcoin can travel similarly on the Ethereum network. Um, and so how does that happen? Well, wrapped Bitcoin is usually you, you send your Bitcoin to BitGo. Uh, they freeze it on the Bitcoin blockchain for you when they reissue it on the Ethereum blockchain. And I think there are some other people in that, in that syndicate, but that's what they do.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  But they're pretty clearly performing custodial services because they hold the key to that bridge. Um, and I think that's a little bit of a vulnerability. That's where, you know, a regulator can come and say, no, you guys aren't smart enough to run your own finances. You're not being truly transparent. There's too much cyber risk here. There's, you guys are obviously all money launderers. Um, so, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna intervene or we're gonna intervene because you're providing custodial services. And that's, that's, so, you know, we've actually privately invested, um, not as corporately, but some of our partners privately in the Keep network recently, and the Keep network is early stage and it's, it's, it's not huge. But it's moving into that sort of automated wrapping service where I can now get cross-chain operability

• 46:07Speaker 02

  from, you know, Bitcoin to, uh, to, to a wrapped Bitcoin on the Ethereum network without anybody else holding those keys, it's a non-custodial function. And so now really like, you know, where's the surface area of attack? Um, from, you know, the, the legacy world, when they try and get purchase on the activity you're doing, because I'm essentially doing that myself. And I think those kind of tactics are the way. That we navigate this whole thing into this more digitized future. It's essentially trying to go around the problem rather than through the problem. I'm getting tired of making applications to legacy, you know, government quango type organizations to do stuff.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  They're not coming along fast enough. I don't think they really understand it and it's happening anyway. So I want to participate.

• 46:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Makes a ton of sense to me. Before I let you guys ask everyone the same three questions, you'll get a chance to ask me one to finish up. The first is, what is the most important book that you've ever read?

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Oh, I wish you'd you'd you'd give me a little notice here, so I'm gonna have to think. I think there's a family of books that I read all around trading and investing when I was when I was younger. Things like Market Wizards, Liar's Poker, the Black Swan books,

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Blink, and others, Talan, Caleb's book. And even Jesse Livermore's Reminiscences of a Stock Operator, which I was given as a trainee to JP Morgan, which was actually a very nice gift. But there was a book by Albert Vance called Portfolio Management Theories.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  And of all those books I read around trading, I had the biggest impact on me. Because unfortunately, it's Albert Vince, I think, and unfortunately, I think that book's now out of print. But what he does mathematically by studying what's called the parimutuel betting system, which is a system of betting where, you know, there were ten horses in a race and the odds of those horses are purely dictated by how much money flows into each horse. And then the house takes a cut and the rest is distributed to the, you know, prior to to the people that backed the same horse. And what he proves mathematically is that the you can beat a system where there is friction because they're taking 10% out as a rake for the house.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  But only if you bet on things that other people aren't betting on. In other words, the betting on the favorite will manipulate the odds of that favorite. And therefore, the return that you get to the point where in the long run, if you run that trial many, many times, you can't win. But if you can find out what it is that people don't want to bet on, then you do. And I think if there was one thing that guided my commodities career, it was that. And actually, many people have asked me a question about Bitcoin, which I answer the same way. They say, what's the terminal price of Bitcoin? And I go, I don't know what the terminal price of Bitcoin is, but it will happen shortly after. Everybody I talk to loves Bitcoin.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  We're not there yet, but that is how that can be guiding.

• 49:33Anthony Pompliano?

  I tend to agree with you very, very much. Second question is a little bit more personal, sleep schedule. So this comes from our friends over at Sleep. They've got a thermo-regulated bed that I used to sleep like six hours a night and was an absolute monster to deal with, probably on a daily basis. But after I started sleeping on the bed, you can make it as hot or cold as you want. I sleep on an ice cube and now I sleep like eight or nine hours and I'm much more pleasant. What's your sleep schedule and how has that changed over the years?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  I think as a risk taker, which I've always been,

• 50:12Speaker 02

  whether it's starting a crazy business in crypto or just, you know, some crazy bets I've had on this, that and the other over time. In fact, my whole family come from the gambling kind of background.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  But when you grow up under the spotlight of, you know, the JP Morgans and the Solomon Brothers of the world, and when you run a hedge fund of your own, as I did for over a decade. There is, there is a huge spotlight on you and, and there, you know, when it comes particularly in the private investing world, when you're a hedge fund manager, I used to hate losing money for people with a, with a, with a passion. And, and I used to hate, you know, obviously your friends and family will want to be investors. And that just, I, I actually refused friends and family towards the end of my career because it just makes the stress of investing even greater. And what I found with, you know, all my sleep pattern was determined by stress. And, um, and it used to, and I used to get stressed about the stress. So if I couldn't sleep at three o'clock

• 51:09Speaker 02

  in the morning, I would get even more stressed and I couldn't sleep even more. And, and you know what? I, I, I, I kind of slayed that dragon. And what I do now is I'm awake when I'm awake, I'm asleep when I'm asleep. And if I'm awake at three o'clock in the morning, I'll get up and I'll do something. Um, and, and if I want to sleep, but have a nap at three o'clock in the afternoon, I'll do that as well. And I just feel like I have to go with my body's own biorhythms. I'm definitely going to try out your temperature control bed because it sounds like it could definitely be a, only a plus. But, um, but yeah, I, I, I, I just, I know I'm in a, I know I'm in a tough business. Uh, I know there's a lot of demands on me. I think my body naturally kind of fights against that. I just try and go with it and not against it.

• 51:53Anthony Pompliano?

  I think that's the best way to do it. The, the other thing I've learned, uh, has nothing to do with like sleep aids is, uh, humans are just human bodies. And so the best way to get good sleep at night is to make sure you're tired, right? Like just do things during the day that tire you out to, to, uh, get deeper and deeper sleep. So, uh, it's, uh, it's awesome that you at least understand kind of, you know, hey, what your body does and you just succumb to it because that's probably the best way.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  You need to, yeah.

• 52:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. The, the last question's more fun. Uh, aliens, are you a believer or a non-believer?

• 52:22Speaker 02

  Um, I have no doubt in my mind, there's life on alien other planets. I mean, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind. I'm hoping I'm going to see it in my lifetime. You know, keep wondering, you know, one of these probes to Mars is going to happen across a little centipede somewhere, um, and, uh, and bring it back. Uh, but it, you know, I, I, again, I, I'm, I had, I had a physics minor and I, I did some cosmology and you do the, you know, the, the vastness of it, I think is lost on a lot of people. And it's almost impossible to imagine it's not out there. Now, will these people arrive in green suits? Probably not. Um, but I am really hoping in the next. Few decades of my lifetime, I actually do get to see that. That would be great.

• 53:07Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. You could ask me one question to finish up. What you got for me?

• 53:11Speaker 02

  I've got one for you. So, so my daughter, Honor, Honor Masters, who's, who did do a little spell in the crypto business and is now at Columbia doing her masters, which is great. So she happened across you in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in real life event somewhere. I think you may or may not have been speaking. I'm not sure. And I think at one point that she sort of tried to approach you and, and she said that like somehow she got caught in a crush of other people. And, and clearly you have some, you know, you, you've, you have some sort of a, a rock star status in the crypto world. And I want to know,

• 53:49Speaker 02

  you know, how's it been coping with that? And can you assure me and the audience that you're not going to end up with your assets in conservatorship like Britney Spears?

• 53:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes, the, the one benefit I have is I have a, a very caring and, and frankly stern wife who, who makes sure that I never, you know, get a big ego for sure. And then, you know, look, I think I kind of take this approach of, I'm trying to learn, like this world moves so quickly, right? And every single time you think you understand it, something changes and then it kind of makes you question like, ah, maybe that assumption I held or that narrative that I, you know, bought into was inaccurate. And so I think that, that really kind of allows me to keep, just constantly wanting to learn and keep that intellectual curiosity. The, the one other thing that I think is really fascinating when it comes to the democratization, democratization, democratization of access is

• 54:42Anthony Pompliano?

  you now don't just have kind of work, right? As I'm sure you and many other people listening to this, I've got friends who I haven't talked to for over a decade, who all of a sudden text me and say, hey, what do you think about X, Y, or Z? Or, you know, some random person I literally met one time DMs me on Instagram and it'll be like, you know, what price is Bitcoin going to hit this? Like, I don't know. And so you start to realize is that that's a kind of warning sign of like, you also have to take great responsibility, I think, with, yeah, there's a lot of people listening, right? That there's a lot of kind of attention. And so I try my best to kind of share some of the messages that are, you know, look, don't invest more money than you're willing to lose, right? Make sure you're doing your own research. Like, like all the things that are timeless financial advice can get lost, right?

• 55:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Because people are just so excited. But, uh, but I think that's really kind of the things I just spend my time focused on. It's like, okay, so far you, I, and many of the people we know have been right about kind of the market dynamics. That does not guarantee us that we're right moving forward. And so you just want to make sure that, uh, that you're right over and over and over again for decades, right? That's kind of what makes you one of the greatest, greatest investors. It's not just being right this one time. And so, uh, you know, tell Honor that, uh, next time she should just get some sharp elbows, learn some lessons from you and then move everybody out of the way. But, uh,

• 56:00Anthony Pompliano?

  that's how I think about it. Where, where can we send people to find you, Danny, or, uh, or find more about coin shares on the internet?

• 56:06Speaker 02

  Coinshares.com. Um, it's actually, you know, growing into a really nice site. We, we've got lots of really valuable, valuable research there. Um, I, I'm not a huge Twitter guy. I'm Danny L. Masters, uh, one series of letters on Twitter. Uh, I actually drive most of my traffic through LinkedIn, funny enough, um, uh, which is, as you know, more of a professional network and less trolling, which suits me.

• 56:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Listen, we, we, uh, we, we saw Steve Cohen get chased off the internet, basically by trolls on Twitter. So.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  I'm definitely no better than him. If I can chase him off, they can chase me off.

• 56:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome, man. Listen, thank you so much for doing this. I think people will really enjoy this one. I'll do it again in the future.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  You're very welcome. Great to see you.