Is Bitcoin About to Shock Everyone in Q4? | Jordi Visser

Jordi Visser is a veteran macro investor with 30+ years of experience and the author of the VisserLabs Substack. In this conversation, we break down why the macro doomers are wrong about rates, whether OpenAI and Anthropic are slowing down, and why the explosion of personal AI agents needs crypto rails. We also discuss Wall Street's growing crypto FOMO, the bitcoin setup heading into Q4, and what Jordi calls the "micron moment." ======================= Arch Public is an agentic trading platform that automates investment strategies across Stocks, Commodities, ETFs and Crypto. Whether you’re rotating into AI & Gold, allocating to the S&P 500, or accumulating Bitcoin, Arch Public executes your plan 24/7 without ever taking custody of your assets or funds. Sign up today at https://www.archpublic.com, and start your FREE automated trading strategy! ======================= Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Take out a Figure Crypto-Backed Loan, allowing you to borrow against your BTC, ETH, or SOL with 12-month terms, 8.91% interest rates, and no prepayment penalties. Or check out Democratized Prime (https://figuremarkets.co/pomp) and earn ~8.5% APY on real world assets. Unlock your crypto’s potential today at Figure! https://figuremarkets.co/pomp Figure Lending LLC dba Figure (NMLS 1717824). Loans subject to approval. Crypto collateral may be liquidated. Terms apply - see full disclosures at https://figure.com/disclosures/ ======================= GalaxyOne is a financial technology platform built for people who want their cash working harder. Open an account with promo code POMP and deposit $10,000 to earn a $1,000 bonus. See site for promotion details → https://www.galaxy.app/pomp1000 Galaxy Premium Yield is an investment note issued by Galaxy Digital LP and guaranteed by Galaxy Digital Holdings LP. It is not a bank deposit, is unsecured, and is not FDIC or SIPC insured. U. S. accredited investors only. Cash deposits held at Cross River Bank, Member FDIC. Securities products are not FDIC insured, not bank guaranteed, and may lose value. GalaxyOne Crypto is not FDIC or SIPC insured. Terms apply. ======================= Lava is a global platform for bitcoin financial services. Spend with Lava Card and earn up to 5% back in bitcoin with every purchase— all with no annual fee, no FX fees, and zero spread. Plus you can borrow against your bitcoin at the lowest rates, earn yield on cash, and move fiat or stablecoins globally. Get started at https://www.lava.xyz/POMP ======================= 0:00 - Intro1:02 - Why the macro doomers are wrong on rates3:23 - Homebuilders, autos & the new economy5:54 - Tech dominance & why AI ignores rates11:10 - Are OpenAI & Anthropic slowing down?22:15 - The personal AI agent explosion26:08 - Why AI agents need crypto29:22 - Wall Street FOMO for crypto32:44 - Bitcoin bull trend & this week's macro data35:52 - Why crypto wins the fourth quarter38:14 - AI to bitcoin rotation & the VisserLabs index45:52 - The micron moment for crypto

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:00Speaker 03

  I think most of what's driving crypto right now is a combination of new players coming in. This is what a bull market is about. And you're right, FOMO is going to start to kick in very, very soon. I said before, when Bitcoin got above 82,000, that was the confirmation of the bull trend. I think we're in that. The fundamental side is getting stronger and stronger by the day. I think we're at a point where this stuff is about to kind of take off, particularly with what happened today with the.

• 1:26Speaker 04

  What's going on, guys? Today we got a great conversation with Jordy Visser. In this one, we're going to talk about what's going on in the macro world. Why are people so fearful when the data actually says you should be bullish? What's going on in AI? Why is the rise of personal AI assistants very bullish for token consumption? Or the big model labs actually coming under pressure or not? Jordy and I disagree, and then we agree on a big topic that I think you're going to enjoy. And then we talk about crypto, public equities, and what he sees going on in people's portfolios, how the end of the year should go, where we're going next year. And maybe he even gives a little bit of alpha, something he calls the micron moment, which I think that all of you will be very interested in. Here's my latest conversation with Jordy Visser.

• 2:03Speaker 04

  All right, Jordy, it seems like every single person I talk to from the traditional world, they are freaking out about macro factors. They're saying interest rates are going up, oil is at 100, the 10-year keeps going higher. They are so worried that the big crash, the Michael Burry moment is coming. I don't get the sense that you agree.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  I actually think it's stupid.

• 2:22Speaker 04

  Podcast over.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  I mean, I've posted an X a bunch about this this week. I did a subscriber video and I had like 25 slides of, of why this is just. Add it to the list of Doomer stuff that comes out, tariffs and the war and oil is going to infinity and all of these things. So this is the way the economy works.

• 2:52Speaker 03

  We have a very diverse economy in the U.S. We have a diverse stock market theoretically. We have 500 names in the S and P 500. Rates mattered a lot before the great financial crisis. They mattered a lot into the great financial crisis because the economy was built on autos, housing. That's why we created things like the leading economic indicators. We have what's called financial conditions index. Everything changed after the great financial crisis. So the first thing about rates are everyone's like, we're at 20-year highs for rates. Well, let's just go back to what that means. That means by definition, rates just before the great financial crisis. I'm not sure anyone got the memo, but to save us from the great financial crisis,

• 3:36Speaker 03

  they had to move rates to zero. And then we stated zero for a long time to get us out of the problem. So really what's happened to rates is they've normalized. Nominal GDP is six and change percent. Historically, 10-year rates should be 200 basis points above. Now, let's say it's about it. That changed in 1997. So let's say it just goes to even. We're still cheap relative to nominal GDP. Now that matters because GDP is growing at six and a half percent. Theoretically, if you just take what that is, that means you'd have to have rates above it to where it'd be difficult to make money if that's kind of how much money you can make investing wise or transaction wise, business wise. But that's not the case.

• 4:18Speaker 03

  So with inside the S and P 500 are a lot of zombie companies. I mean, I hate to say it, but home builders don't make much money these days. Auto companies, Ford, GM.

• 4:30Speaker 04

  Is that stuff just interest rate driven? Or do you think that is like a structural change in the market? And home builders as an example are going to have a tough time for the next 20 years?

• 4:41Speaker 03

  I think home builders are going to have a tough time forever. I think the economy is changing. I think demographics are changing. I think the way people view mobilization, having the flexibility of moving from state to state, country to country, that's been a change with the younger generation for some time. The old, I go to college, I get a job, I buy a house after I, you know, I have kids and then I stay there for 30, 40 years. That doesn't exist anymore. And so we don't have enough housing in the country. So do I think there'll be more apartments and things like that? Yeah. Do I think Airbnb will be? Yeah, I think all of those things will happen, but to compare the economy, and this is the best way to do it, and this is what I'm including in this week's video.

• 5:23Speaker 03

  If you take the revenue from Micron and Nvidia in 2015, so 11 years ago, and you compare that to Ford, GM and the home builders, you're talking about Ford, GM and the home builders being like almost 20 times the size of the annual revenue for Micron Nvidia. And now you fast forward, Micron and Nvidia alone have more than those, those, the home builders plus Ford and GM. But even worse than that, the expectations of revenue growth for the next year for Nvidia are almost the entire size of the revenue that will be generated. We just have a completely different economy. And so when people roll this stuff out, once it starts with, oh, every time this has happened

• 6:08Speaker 03

  over the past 50 years, X happens, this is not the same economy. And I'll just, as, as both being sports fans, they changed the rules in the NFL. You know, you used to be able to use stick them on your hands to, you know, grab, intercept the ball, you could hold on to someone you wouldn't let go. A lot of different rules. You can't touch anyone in the NFL anymore. You can't touch the quarterback. Is it fair to compare stats of the 1970s and 80s to today? Of course not. But somehow or another, macro people that are in their 50s that never touch AI. And that's my big beef is that if you actually used AI and you saw where things were going, you actually saw the productivity games, you'd recognize that the economy has changed. So that's why whether it's oil, whether it's rates, it's not the same economy as before 2007. And that's because of the iPhone.

• 6:54Speaker 04

  Do you, are you aware of any measurement that basically looks at sector-based dollar flows? So like, you know, there's capital flows of people pay attention to macro in terms of liquidity cycles and things like that. But it's a very interesting way to think about, okay, how much aggregate dollars are going towards home builders and the revenue and profit that's growing there versus maybe some of these other sectors? And the reason I immediately am intrigued by that is it's not just that, oh, Micron and Nvidia were low and now they're high. It's that they're actually accelerating. And so if you look at this, not as a static thing, but a dynamic trend, they should pull away very aggressively here. And then the question becomes, okay, well, what are the sectors that are getting hammered? You mentioned housing and car manufacturing, but I don't know.

• 7:39Speaker 04

  I could probably think of very quickly 10 or 12, you know, different types of businesses that are all going to be in somewhat of a static, you know, kind of environment going forward.

• 7:49Speaker 04

  I mean, there's a huge opportunity to just take capital out of those sectors.

• 7:52Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 7:53Speaker 04

  And rotate them over and almost indiscriminate of names. It is just literally where is the momentum and growth coming from?

• 8:02Speaker 04

  Like a Buffett style approach? I don't think that buying things for less than their worth is ever going to go out of style. But just like buying quote unquote, good, strong, cash flowing businesses. Feels like that type of value investor may have a tough time going forward.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  So let's go back to 2015. So the other thing that I did is, and let's take it back to the iPhone. So when the iPhone, believe it or not, when the iPhone came out, remember that was at the end of a seven-year bear market in technology. So we had the dot com bubble and it took seven years all the way into the great financial crisis to basically get back to where we were. At that time, technology was about 13% of the S and P 500. And this is where your question on revenue. So people understand you can have a lot of revenue in a sector. But if it's not growing, the S and P 500 is not going to value it. But S and P 500 does care about the revenues, but it cares about the growth.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  And right now, the S and P 500, if you take technology sector, which is going to include software and semis, you add in basically companies like Netflix and Google and Meta and Amazon and Tesla, because they're technology companies, but they're in other sectors. You're up to 56% of the S and P 500 now, 56. So we've already hurt all of these others. This is what gets into the other thing people are talking about. So there's this new highs, new lows and the breadth. The breadth is horrible. Okay, let's go through what this means. If seven companies are winning and the tech side is now 56%, whenever tech is dominating, these companies are out.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  The breadth is going to be bad by definition. But if you move rates higher, tech is insensitive to rates. And this is the other mistake people are making. Now, the doomers will tell you that, oh, my God, we need capital and this is borrowing money. And I've said repeatedly on everything I speak at, there is absolutely no sensitivity for rates in the AI trade, none. You can move it up a lot. If compute prices don't come down, Nvidia, it just doesn't matter. I mean, I know it's hard for people to believe that. But the reality is the margins for Micron, they just released earnings this week, 87%. There is so much margin in what Anthropic does and what OpenAI does, that they're selling compute at prices because people need it. It's intelligence.

• 10:28Speaker 03

  It's incredible. They need it.

• 10:30Speaker 04

  I may disagree with some of this.

• 10:31Speaker 03

  Okay, well, let's finish the statement first. So when you look at new highs and new lows and everyone goes, look at all the new lows. You know what the new lows are in? Consumer staples.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  True.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  Utilities, real estate. You know what those names are? They're all interest rate sensitive. They all, they have no benefit from the AI situation because AI is driving rates higher. It's hurting these groups and that's why they're trading at 52 week lows. Because who wants to own a consumer staples and a utility when they're basically just synthetic bond positions when bond rates are going higher?

• 11:03Speaker 04

  I agree that the rate sensitive businesses 100% are under pressure, going to be under pressure until things change. Anyone who disagrees with that, I think that that's actually an agreement point between the doomers and the AI folks is there's a certain part of the economy. If rates go up, they're going to get hurt. On tech, the individual businesses, I agree. I do think, though, there's a connection between rates going up and the top in November of 2021, as an example. So the Fed comes out and says, hey, we are going to start raising rates. They don't do it till March of 22, but that pretty much marked the top. Go back to 2000, 2000 kind of bubble, right? Same thing, rates, they kind of forecast, hey, we're going to raise rates. Market turns over.

• 11:47Speaker 04

  So in a weird way, it doesn't impact the actual businesses. But on an overall, like almost macro basis, when they say they're going to raise rates, usually that has marked some sort of top, which I think is what the doomers are kind of pulling back to. I think your point, it sounds like, is, well, rates are going up right now and the market is going up too, which kind of like violates that viewpoint. So put that aside for one second.

• 12:10Speaker 04

  I am, I went from Anthropic, OpenAI, et cetera, being the best businesses in the world. To now I think I'm in the camp of there's an increasing chance that they are going to be way underperform what people think. And there are three data points I'd love your reaction to. First is token consumption per customer seems to have exploded. And now it's starting to turn over in a number of things. We see this in the ramp AI index, spending is down. We also see this in a number of these kind of metrics that look at, you know, whether it's open router or whatever, that's coming down. We also know Grok recently released their latest model and they showed a chart of performance and price. Everything is getting better performance and price is coming down. So it looks like everything's kind of diving down into the right.

• 12:56Speaker 04

  Well, if you take those two numbers, number of tokens processed times price of token, that is ultimately the revenue of the model labs. I was talking to Dan Ives this week and I said, look, if those two numbers are both coming down, Anthropic, like the latest charts are just kind of showing slight growth, but to like plateau revenue. And so as businesses realize like, maybe we need to own more of this ourselves and not just outsource everything to these two companies, it feels like there's some pressure there. Now, the overall market is growing. Maybe there's like breadth in AI where like the revenue flows. But could there be weakness in the model labs and maybe some pressure of them actually getting public? Yet the AI trade more broadly continues. And so like, you're almost getting like a reallocation of where values are growing?

• 13:41Speaker 03

  So let me, I'm going to disagree with a lot of what you said.

• 13:44Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 13:44Speaker 03

  But not the facts.

• 13:45Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 13:46Speaker 03

  So the things you highlighted.

• 13:47Speaker 04

  Oh, great. Just call me dumb.

• 13:50Speaker 03

  No, but you're falling into the trap of, that most people get into, which is, well, let's look at this data. Let's go through. So let's, let's.

• 13:57Speaker 04

  Save me, Jordy.

• 13:59Speaker 03

  No, when, so the first part of this year was about token maxing. Let's just throw tons of tokens inefficiently at everything and see what happens. Okay, well, we knew that was going to end. So when you look at the ramp index and all this stuff, the token cost will, is deflationary. It's going to continue to come down. There's models now that three months ago from, I mean, even, even OpenAI has the models from three months ago, which are better today than three months ago are cheaper than they were back then.

• 14:27Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:27Speaker 03

  So everything is moving that way. So let's leave that alone. We've entered the agentic side.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  The token numbers are going to explode. We are going to see, so all we had were enterprise agents. Eight billion people on the planet didn't use anything. Well, now Grok, Instinct, Muse are just starting.

• 14:50Speaker 04

  But how many of those, so this is where I think the noise is. How many of those use OpenAI or Anthropic models?

• 14:55Speaker 03

  Well, no, no, no, not, so let me get to the end. Because there, let's go, what you said at the beginning, I am not some bull on OpenAI and Anthropic. But.

• 15:04Speaker 04

  Are you a bear?

• 15:05Speaker 03

  No, but here's the thing. Do I think their growth rate has already passed the fastest point? Absolutely. So the conversation, remember, two months ago was they're, they're on an annualized run rate, which is still there for Anthropic of 100 plus billion. Okay.

• 15:19Speaker 04

  Nice business. Like, by the way, I'm not, I'm not saying I'm not jealous of having that business.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  Okay, let's just get something straight. For everyone who's like, wants to fade these guys, the total revenue for this year that OpenAI and Anthropic will have at the end of this year will be greater than the entire software revenue. So let's, let's just get something straight. Like, these are the most prof, these are the fast growing companies in the history. Anthropic was a $50 billion company. It's now a multi-trillion in a year and a half. Like, you can't fade what's gone on. Do I think they're going to get to a trillion dollars in revenue? Absolutely not. But do I think people are underestimating what the biotech companies want to use? What the nanotechnology companies want to use? What the, everything in the physical science will pay for frontier intelligence?

• 16:06Speaker 03

  You're crazy if you think they're going to use cheaper models. Like, in the hedge fund industry where I'm from, this has already happened. Like Jane Street, Millennium, they're all using Anthropic. So everyone's crazy.

• 16:17Speaker 04

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• 17:01Speaker 04

  which is 9.999% APR, with a 50% loan to value, giving you liquidity without selling, without triggering taxes and without stepping out of the market. They use a decentralized MPC custody, so assets stay in segregated wallets, protected from rug pulls, and they've introduced liquidation protection to help manage downside volatility. And for investors looking for yield, Democratized Prime offers up to 9% APY, paid hourly, backed by real world private credit, real cash flows, and not speculative token emissions. Figure is building a new capital market on blockchain and now you have access to the upside. Check them out using the link below. I'm going to argue that I don't know if frontier intelligence

• 17:45Speaker 04

  is the actual right label for OpenAI and Anthropic anymore. And I'll give you, let me give you two examples. I think everyone starts with, I want to use AI. I think AI could be valuable. And so what you do is you outsource to, what is the smartest thing I can use? It's kind of off the shelf and you go right to these guys. There is no way in hell that at Sylvia, with less than 10 people on an engineering team, we are able to build better models that are more accurate than these trillion dollar companies for personal finance? And Jane Street can't figure out how to build a better model for their specific use case in terms of custom AI harnesses, data pipelines, all the model weights and the training, et cetera. And so what I think, and again, this is where we are now entering a world of,

• 18:30Speaker 04

  I call it Jordy thinking, probabilistic thinking of, I can't say this with 100% truth, but I know there's not zero.

• 18:39Speaker 04

  I think that OpenAI and Anthropic for many businesses are the perfect on-ramp. So you get this acceleration on a per customer basis. And then the customer starts to say, well, can we get better intelligence? Can we get cheaper intelligence? They start to try to optimize. That optimization point, almost every CEO I talk to in the private market is saying, we are starting to do this internally. And so to me, what that means is their future growth is about how do we go get more of the people who do not currently use AI to get on boarded? Because they're almost like leaking their existing users, the per token usage is going down. So they have to go get new customers to replace the like leakage or the like retention almost to some degree. Does that make sense?

• 19:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, but this gets back into-

• 19:19Speaker 04

  You disagree.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  The part I disagree with is for everything that you've said, if I told you the most important point is that we're in the 1% right now of usage and that Jevon's paradox is a real thing, which I completely agree with, there is no way that OpenAI and Anthropic don't continue to grow. So there's a difference between growing as fast as they did for the early inception and continuing to grow. As someone-

• 19:45Speaker 04

  I'm not saying they're not going to grow, by the way. I agree that they're going to keep growing. It's just the nuanced dynamics now-

• 19:51Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 19:51Speaker 04

  -are changing because you also have like Jev, right? Shows up like, like there, there's a lot of stuff that are happening where you made a comment three months ago, the easy money in AI is over.

• 20:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:02Speaker 04

  We are now like, I'm fully on board with that. And I think that it's becoming very obvious. You can't just be like, the big model labs get all the money.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  Correct. And that part I agree with. The thing, the thing that as a user and using my son is like an example, we both will crap on Gemini. I don't, when the new model comes out, well, this is good. It makes mistakes that I have OpenAI and Claude fix constantly. So I think people that use it all the time and that are scared of mistakes and hallucinations and things like that know the models that are more likely to do this. I think when you make the decision to go to open source and you go to these, I personally believe on my own experience, it better be for stuff that isn't super important. That's why I brought up the Jane Street and Millennium.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  I don't agree that all these models are even close to the same. I've used, I, I stopped my OpenClaw and my Hermes because I was able to do things in Claude and Anthropic that, or in Claude and OpenAI, which were different. And then when Grokbot came out and Muse came out and everything else, Muse is not as good a model, anything close to what OpenAI, but it doesn't need to be. It's just doing basic stuff for me. So I think we're saying the same thing.

• 21:17Speaker 04

  I just think- I think we agree on this.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  I think the hardest thing for people to understand and the most important thing that I want to get across to people, you've heard Jevon's paradox. We're at that point right now. What happened the last two months may have been a air pocket on one way, which is this token cost thing, but we're entering a very, very dangerous period now for the next year. The usage is going to skyrocket and we don't have enough compute. So this gets back to the other thing OpenAI and Anthropic own. I listened to the interview with the Instinct founder. Did you listen to it?

• 21:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, Noah on Invest Like the Best.

• 21:54Speaker 03

  He specifically highlighted that he underestimated his compute needs.

• 22:00Speaker 04

  He said, I think he said 40% of his time is being spent trying to accumulate compute and he's having a hard time because he's growing 10% per day. And so he's like, how do I project out? If I double my compute, you know, I basically use it all up in a couple of weeks and then how do I kind of project how much I'm going to need?

• 22:17Speaker 03

  So here's the scary thing. We're entering the hype, the, the, the parabola of efficiency and compute as well with Vera Rubin. So Blackwells were great, the efficiency of the chips. Well, now we're getting the Vera Rubin. Who owns all of that? The big guys do. I mean, it's the speculation between semi-analysis and what I've heard on the All In Pod is that OpenAI and Anthropic combined will own up to 50% of all the compute coming online. I mean, isn't that a monopoly or duopoly of some, on compute? And so this is where I don't think you can make the assumptions that they won't actually go up again sometime next year, just because they have the compute, which means two things.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  Number one, they can service more people, more companies. And number two, their models start getting better and better because you need more computing power to actually get to the level of the IQ that they eventually want to get to for the physical sciences.

• 23:15Speaker 04

  So, um, let's talk about the personal agents, maybe as a, an area where I think tokens are going to continue to expand. We now have just this past week, Robinhood announced a bunch of agentic trading. We have OpenAI launched Dots. We have Ryan Serhant launched an AI agent within his simple app, which again is like a very applied AI type thing. We have Muse, which was already out, but now is going after small business. We have Noah, the founder of Instinct, who's basically come out and said they're doing over a billion dollars of transactions, 40%, I think it's on travel. They gave a bunch of numbers in terms of what, what's going on, how they're doing it, growing 10% day over day.

• 24:00Speaker 04

  With Sylvia, we announced now you can text it in a more agentic way than have to go into an archaic dashboard and use it that way.

• 24:09Speaker 04

  And then I don't, I've lost count. I, we would spend an hour of me rattling off every single product launch that I saw from some net new agent that got released, including, I don't know if you saw this one, there is one, I don't want to say the name because I don't know how legit it is, that you can start with the agent as a baby and raise it?

• 24:29Speaker 03

  I haven't heard that.

• 24:30Speaker 04

  Launch video was awesome, looked cool, hilarious. I'm sure they've got some pitch as to why that's better, but like we're, we're in banana land a little bit on the AI agents already. How are you evaluating personal agents? What are you using? And where do you think, you know, is there consolidation or like, are you going to have 20 agents across 20 different use cases?

• 24:51Speaker 03

  Okay, so there's two parts to this and I want to make sure the second part everyone hears first in terms of you getting back to it.

• 25:00Speaker 03

  Every day since I put Muse on my phone, I have bought more and more crypto every single day.

• 25:07Speaker 04

  Because Muse told you or because you just become more convinced of it?

• 25:10Speaker 03

  Because this to me, so I, people have watched this together now for a while. Last year, when I was frustrated by just like listening to people not understand the Micron story about token growth, the agent stuff with Muse and all of this, it just blows me away every day with more things that I can do with it. And so let me answer that part. I want to get to the crypto connection because I think if any, everyone should be demanding from their fidelity, their Robin Hood, everything, that they have the ability of at least thinking about this. I really do believe that we're entering something that is just breathtaking crypto connected to agents. So on the agent side, it started with Grokbot and that was a game changer for me.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  Now I use Grokbot more for the work stuff. I have one chief of staff who I go to when I want to have a meeting with the agents or I want to send off the agents. But underneath that chief of staff, I now have two middle management chief of staff.

• 26:09Speaker 04

  Uh oh, middle managers, middle managers. Hey, pull up a chair, let me tell you about automation.

• 26:16Speaker 03

  So I have one for AI.

• 26:17Speaker 04

  Man, you capitalist pig, you going after the middle managers?

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Too much time in Morgan Stanley. So one, one side is, is got a, an AI side, the other side has a crypto side and I send them out to keep up on what's going on. What Muse did for me, and I think this is what people need to hear when they go Meta won, Meta didn't win anything. It's not even like, there's, there's going to be so many personal AI and that's the big thing. And that's why it matters so much is that when Apple comes out, we're going to have a ton. And who do I think is going to be better at security? Apple or Meta? I'm going to go with Apple. It's just my, my guess, but regardless of that, Muse and all of them, if you haven't used them yet, I think you're missing the same way that when we talked about not understanding

• 27:04Speaker 03

  tokens, you're going to miss out on some activity to invest. I think with agents, then my brain only goes one place, which is there's no way for the current system to handle the speed and the ability to do things like this. It's just impossible. And I will give you one important thought process on this. So we've heard about agent swarms. So let's take the two parts of agents. The reason there's agent swarms now is the same reason that we have personal agents. We couldn't have personal agents unless we got to the point where we had agent swarms. Because at the end of the day, that's kind of what you're doing. You need to have enough IQ to be able to do all these different tasks, have the memory, have it, and agent swarms have the same thing.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  The reason this is important, the current system, when you go to wire money to someone, if you go to wire money to someone on a Friday at three o'clock, it'll settle on Monday. Where's your money for the last two days? Where's it sitting? And I challenge anyone to actually know where their money is. When they use a credit card to go buy something and it goes from your bank account to the merchant through the credit card, I keep hearing people tell me, well, Visa and Mastercard are going to be the winners in this. I'm like, no, they're not. They have no chance. I don't even know where this comes from. And this argument comes up all the time. The amount of steps between buying something and settling something, the longer it takes, even if it's 20 seconds versus one second, that's multiple times for an agent swarm to come in and steal the money along.

• 28:33Speaker 03

  You need every single part of it. So you remember the Cold Wallet story, right?

• 28:38Speaker 03

  Crypto is based on cryptography. Like, this is going to be a necessity to make sure that it's instant, because that is the best defense on anything. If you're worried about someone robbing your house, but they will only rob it when you're not there, well, the best thing would be to go outside for a second, come back in. The longer you leave, you go on vacation, the higher the probability. I think people need to start understanding that the lineup of cryptography to AIs is not just about them wanting to do things fast. It's not just the cost. It is also the time of risk against agent swarms. And I think that's going to become more of a story. This is the reason why every time I use it, I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so obvious that, number one, that we didn't

• 29:19Speaker 03

  need crypto. We didn't need the tokens. We didn't need the all coins. We needed the layer ones to kind of draw capital in to build out the infrastructure that was necessary. So when you have the L ones growing and continuing to get bigger and bigger, well, that means the ecosystem is getting bigger. And as Michael Saylor says, the capital structure can now change because we actually have digital collateral. We have Bitcoin. We have Ethereum, so we have the programmable side. But you need that thing that actually makes it, well, this is the use case. And I said the same thing. If you go back and look when Uber started, Uber didn't start as a company in terms of the idea until the App Store happened. Then they went, oh, we can do this. I think you're going to see innovation after innovation related to this. So what I've spent my time on, as someone

• 30:02Speaker 03

  who listens to so many podcasts a week, very seldom now do I listen to moonshots. Very seldom do I listen to any of these.

• 30:12Speaker 04

  Why?

• 30:13Speaker 03

  They've been dominated by crypto now, and not rah rah hoodie crypto. I mean, the functional use cases and different ways to value these, because I am getting constantly, I mean, this has happened three times this week, calls with hedge fund and asset manager, let's just say asset managers. Tell me about why I should be investing in crypto. These conversations never existed. When you and I talked, you gave me all the horror stories of walking into rooms.

• 30:46Speaker 04

  They are asking you in terms of, I hear you talking about crypto, and I disagree, so convince me. Or they are saying, I am interested. Help me better understand, you know, where to put the money that I want to invest.

• 30:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, the best analogy is, the door was closed and you had to pry it open. They're looking through the door.

• 31:05Speaker 04

  I see.

• 31:06Speaker 03

  They're interested. And the reason is, and this is the

• 31:09Speaker 04

  This is the Wall Street FOMO building up.

• 31:11Speaker 03

  I don't, so I think it is coming from two directions. One is everyday Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citibank, they're all involved in it. All of them. They're racing for tokenization. They're racing for stable coins, and that's the key thing. But then there's another argument, which is, the connection of agents to crypto makes sense. Like, that's the whole point, is that there's an element of, oh, this makes sense. And the reason I'm so emphatic and pounding the table that this is so important, is, and I don't, I don't know how to pronounce Ilya's last name from NEAR, but if you go back and listen to an interview with him in 2023 on a podcast called No Priors.

• 31:52Speaker 04

  Great podcast.

• 31:53Speaker 03

  Great podcast. And, but this was a very futuristic look of where we are today. So in 2023, if I said to you, okay, he did this interview, it was only six months after Gen AI started, ChatGPT was launched. How could a guy have this much vision on the agentic world connecting to it? Literally, that's what NEAR, that's what he was talking about. How could he have that vision? Because he was one of the co-authors on the transformer paper that led to generative AI. So there's two things about that. So I'm a logical guy. Like, I look at things and go, I like listening to this guy. This is great. His value as one of the transformer page co-authors, when AI took over and people were paying hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars for humans, you don't think Ilya got a call

• 32:38Speaker 03

  and could have left NEAR and gone there? But he believes in this. There's a lot of elements for me as like a founder that I like listening to and getting to know the people. So I think if people go back and listen to that, forget investing in NEAR. Just go listen to the story and go listen to someone who believes agents have to be part of crypto back in 20. So this was also when crypto was on its way down. Everything was breaking down. He was saying when agents are here, that's when the connection will be. And literally what he said is, they will be the economic actors of the future. And so that's why every day that I sit there, I'm like, oh, I know what's happening now. And so if I get off the call, and this happened to me once this week, I'm meeting someone

• 33:19Speaker 03

  for breakfast coming up soon, has two portfolios, follows me in AI as a subscriber, he's been doing well, and he's got all these names. But then at the same point, he's got a lot of crypto, which he told me about. He's like, I don't need any more crypto. I still have stuff from 2021, 2022. And that was an interesting thing, because I remember hearing that after the dot com bubble. All the people that I knew that bought a lot of these things, they didn't put more money into it, because they still had PTSD from what they went through. I think there's a period here where the asset managers are looking to invest. I think most of what's driving crypto right now is a combination of new players coming in. This is what a bull market is about. And you're right, FOMO is going to start to kick in very, very soon. I said before, when Bitcoin got above 82,000, that was the confirmation

• 34:03Speaker 03

  of the bull trend. I think we're in that. The fundamental side is getting stronger and stronger by the day. I think we're at a point where this stuff is about to kind of take off, particularly with what happened today with the unemployment rate being lower than expected. If you take everything that happened this week from the rate picture, and you look at it, and you're like, David Zervos brought into the Fed, or brought into the Treasury. He wants, he's, he's a very creative guy. We're gonna, he's, he's being brought in to help get long-term rates lower. They did another buyback, another, you know, Treasury yield curve, Treasury twitch, whatever you want to call it, in terms of the twisting of the backend versus the frontend. We got a lower than expected PCE core. Now we got

• 34:48Speaker 03

  an unemployment number that came in weaker than expected, with an hourly earnings that came in weaker than expected. So maybe rates settle here. They don't have to go down, guys. They just need to not be a story where every day they go up. And I think we could be staring at a position coming out of the midterms where people are like, why were we waiting? Earnings are just growing rapidly, and we're entering earnings season in two weeks.

• 35:07Speaker 04

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  squeeze you with high fees, confusing rewards programs. Lava keeps it simple, and they help you build your long-term savings via your everyday spend. Visit lava.xyz/pomp to get started in just a few minutes today. lava.xyz/pomp to get started today. You ever gone to a high school football game?

• 36:55Speaker 03

  Many times.

• 36:56Speaker 04

  And you see the young men on the sidelines, fourth quarter comes, and they start holding up the four fingers like this?

• 37:02Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 37:02Speaker 04

  You don't know this, but the OG podcast viewers, every fourth quarter, we go like this. You know why?

• 37:09Speaker 03

  Why?

• 37:09Speaker 04

  Because crypto loves the fourth quarter. It loves it. Like, just like the high school football teams, like, we win the fourth quarter. Crypto is like, we win the fourth quarter. It's October 3rd. You know, like, you ever seen a bull, right before he stampedes, he kind of digs his feet into the ground, throws up some dust? October 3rd, that's what the bulls do. And then it's fourth quarter. Like, here we go.

• 37:30Speaker 03

  I think it was over the summer that when it first, when we had the seven sigma move, that I reminded both the audience and you that the viewpoint for this year was that, based on the work being done by institutional investors, that when we came to the end of the year, something very important happened. So this will match up with your fourth quarter thing, but I think this one's the most important. It's important for people to hear. This is my mindset.

• 37:56Speaker 04

  Jordy's unbothered. He's just like, get out of here, this fourth quarter. Just give us a four.

• 37:59Speaker 03

  Four-year cycle, I don't care about, and this, I don't care about. But I do know this. Large allocators and decision makers make really important decisions for the following calendar year.

• 38:09Speaker 04

  In the fourth.

• 38:10Speaker 03

  In the fourth quarter. And the reason that's important, and particularly in the final two months.

• 38:16Speaker 03

  They get paid on performance, which crystallizes sometime around that end of the, you know, November and into the beginning of the year.

• 38:24Speaker 04

  Oh, there's somebody out there. They're out big right now. They're selling and they're not going to touch their portfolio till December.

• 38:28Speaker 03

  Exactly. And so if you want to get involved with crypto, they're doing their homework. The problem they're running into, I've been asked this many times. So what can I buy? And I go, well, you can either buy the, you know, the ETFs or the, you know, the Dats of the various ones, or maybe there's five companies, you public stocks you can buy. It's really hard, but they want to do it. So I think that's where the L ones start to become, you know, they're not going to drive things, but there, there's going to be an underlying bid for these things that keeps the ecosystem grounded. And that means that the beta is going to continue to show up in the all comms, but the beta is going to be driven not by

• 39:08Speaker 03

  the institutional managers until the tokenization starts to happen. That's why tokenization is so important.

• 39:14Speaker 04

  So there's two, uh, two data points that I will, uh, I will share. Um, I think back in May or June, I tweeted much to the disappointment of all the AI bulls. And I said, it's going to be glorious when the AI profits rotate back into Bitcoin. And I was trolling a little bit, but I do believe that, you know, a lot of the crypto gains went into AI. People continue, you've got the momentum and now you're going to kind of see this rotation back. It does feel like that's starting to happen a little bit. To your point, I don't think that the interest in AI is going away. I just think that people are going to be coming a little bit more interested in Bitcoin and crypto. And so now you kind of have these two technologies. The second thing, uh, I am shocked. Right now, I believe Sylvia is the only public company that has AI and Bitcoin kind of married together. It's a, it's a little bit of a weird way that we've done it.

• 40:00Speaker 04

  I am very, very shocked that maybe the only ones you could assign to are like a Coinbase or like a Robin Hood who have like crypto products. And then they're like using AI, you know, in some form or fashion. But I feel like this is becoming somewhat of a more consensus view that these two technologies are going to benefit from each other and it's going to be there. One of my predictions for 2027 is you're going to start to see an assault of public markets where people, they may be an AI, you know, related business, they're going to start trying to do crypto stuff, crypto will do more AI. And so I think what investors are going to have to try to figure out is like, where does the value accrue? Right? So if you look at, take maybe Coinbase and Robin Hood. Coinbase came from the crypto world, Robin comes from the brokerage world. They kind of have ended up in this like, you know, war over who's going to be like the everything exchange.

• 40:45Speaker 04

  Both great businesses. I think both will do very well going forward. But they have kind of like the DNA of the company is a little bit different. And so if you were like, hey, I want to be more like 70, 30 crypto to AI, you probably would go and buy a Coinbase. If you want to be like 70, 30, you know, equities, then AI, you'd go like more Robin Hood. That I think is actually much harder for people to navigate. Again, going back to this, like all the easy money is gone. If you're an institutional allocate and you're like, okay, cool. I, I believe in everything Jordy's saying. Where do I go put my money? You're now almost getting like the, the more intricate decisions. And so one, I think that, uh, similar to how we talk about like lawyers, advice will become more valuable than the action of just like filling out the documents.

• 41:27Speaker 04

  Your philosophy is going to become consensus. And now it is going to become much more about like, what are the specific names? How do I think about portfolio construction? How do I think about one-time purchase versus dollar cost averaging? I mean, like very specific, you know, kind of tactical things.

• 41:44Speaker 03

  This is where, uh, so I'm, and you and I haven't talked about this, but I'll, I'll, I'll bring it. So because I have subscribers that want to invest in the 46 name index that I created, they want to.

• 41:58Speaker 04

  Around tokenization.

• 41:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, it, yeah, around, it's really the crypto ecosystem. So this is really, hey, agents are going to do things. Okay. This is the entire ecosystem that should benefit. And rather than you go out and pick five tokens. I think the beauty of the way I put it together is equal weight. It's got the L ones, and then it's got a bunch of L twos, 46 names.

• 42:22Speaker 04

  Just, uh, you're not allowed to say this, but I have a, a report here. Let me look to make sure I got this right. The Visser Labs 46 name index, which by the way, we got to get you a better name. Visser Labs. It's like, uh, you know, for, for whatever people say about Trump, good or bad, the guy's good at branding and super intelligence probably is a better name. The Visser Labs 46 name index is up year to date 50%. Bitcoin is down 3.2% as of the close yesterday. So that I think gives a, a pretty clear, this is outperforming Bitcoin as a benchmark.

• 42:53Speaker 03

  And if you would have looked the prior year or, you know, when Bitcoin peaked, Bitcoin was outperforming and all of the all coins were, were underperforming. That's what makes this so important. It ties it back to AI. What I was going to say is I'm reaching out now to asset managers. So anyone out there who's doing anything, I ran ETFs.

• 43:11Speaker 04

  If you breathe.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  I ran ETFs at Morgan Stanley. I traded programs. I traded derivatives. The future is to give both individual investors and asset managers what they're going to be able to do within a year, which is some kind of tokenized way to do this agentially. This compares, so I'm going to set this up myself. I'm going to do this. I'm also going to connect to API keys to be able to do the research on crypto. At this point, you should be able to turn everything into an investment dashboard that has the 46 name index. You trade it with a push of a button with agents. I'm going to do that on my own and I'm going to set it up and I don't know if Robin Hood can do it yet. I don't know if Coinbase can do it yet, but anyone else out there?

• 43:56Speaker 03

  I reached out to Bill Bart Hyde. I'm, I'm reaching out. Anyone wants to come to me and work with me on this? I don't want to launch an ETF, but I do want my subscribers to have the ability of investing that way because that's the way the future is going to be. And agent can go out and do all 46 names, equal weight, the whole thing. And then you have it done within seconds. We're at that point where it should be able to get done. The only nuance is there's 42 tokens, and then there's four public stocks. So in the world of the merging of tokenization, it's a race to see who can handle Jordy's portfolio first.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  I like this idea. I do think this is where the world is going. Uh, I do not think it will happen as fast as everyone claims it will. And, um, I will, uh, introduce you to a couple of lawyers, uh, because as we've gone down this path,

• 44:45Speaker 04

  there are a lot of very antiquated rules around how they will empower this to happen. And so, uh, I'm an investor in a company called Autopilot. They do something similar, different, but, but similar. I think they've done a great job. You now are seeing the agentic trading, Etoro, Robin Hood, Coinbase, like they're all going into that. Public has this like describe something and it will then create an index for you, kind of a custom index. I think maybe you can kind of trade off of it, um, in the product. Supertake, we, we recently talked about in terms of like, you know, I think snow is, is going to snow a lot in the mountain. Like, how do I invest along that theme? Like, this is definitely where the world is headed.

• 45:28Speaker 04

  What I think is maybe most interesting is twofold. Creating it and putting it on, easy. How do people sell or rotate or that type of stuff? I think is, we just need to figure it out. I don't, I don't think people have really spent a lot of time there. And then the second thing is, um, the rules have to catch up with this type of investing because the rules are frankly situated for ETF mutual funds like that stuff. This is the future. But like, if I said to you, hey, you've got to go become an RIA to do this, you'd probably be like, eh, I'm not interested. I don't know if you have to, right? But the platforms for sure, if they're going to empower this stuff, there are legal things that they need to do.

• 46:10Speaker 04

  We're entering a weird world where like, if the agents are doing the trading, like are the agents regulated? You know, one of the things I've always talked about is in crypto back in the day, uh, there's certain things that exchanges have to file with the SEC. Well, if it's decentralized, how does it file? And then like, also, how do you enforce the rules? So decentralization for exchanges is an interesting thing because regulators weren't like, you're not even trying to be malicious. Just like, how do we interface with each other? I think this is now coming in a weird way. What you're talking about is almost like a decentralized ETF. How to, how does the regulators, how do the rules interface? I don't think they have an answer yet. They're, they're trying to figure it out, but they don't have an answer.

• 46:52Speaker 03

  So here's what's going to happen a year from now. And I keep saying a year from now because my mindset is that we are at the micron moment, as I call it, where people just underestimate how fast this stuff goes. And if I'm right,

• 47:06Speaker 03

  every wealth advisor, every, uh, wealth management firm is going to be in a very, very difficult position a year from now. Their clients are going to start hearing about how people are making a lot of money in crypto. And they're going to hear crypto and rather than crypto, I want everyone to just think they're making money in tokens. Well, stocks are going to be tokenized for sure. Now, will they be the same way? There's going to be a merging here, but if people go, well, I, I heard, you know, I heard Joe and Mary just made 30 times their money over here. This is the weird part about if I'm right about what's happening and you have to go back to the micron example.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  Never in my time have I seen what I saw with my agentic portfolio infrastructure, which is, I thought micron would double. I thought it might triple 14 times. Now, that was totally based on the earnings growth. I see the crypto volumes, the token volumes going through the roof because of tokenization and because of stablecoin payments, because of AI agents. If it wasn't for agents, which will speed this process up to make it easier, I wouldn't be as optimistic on it. So it started now, and I think everyone listening who watches us regularly, of which we have a good size audience. This is a problem you want to be ahead of, both as an in-person investor, you want to start doing your research. This weekend, when I go through, I will do another video on crypto, plus my regular weekly video.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  I am going to highlight seven separate podcasts. I not only spoke to Ilya at NEAR, I spoke to William McGaughan, who you've had on. He was amazing, brilliant, brilliant guy. He's got a new book coming out. It's going to take another three to six months, I think, for his book to come out. You have to be on top of these guys. Joseph Chalam or Shalom, who was at BlackRock.

• 48:54Speaker 04

  All over it.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  Okay. They're all over it and they're telling you why to invest in it. And they're telling you why this moment matters now. And a lot of it has to do with the regulatory side, but most of it has to do with, the three of them saw this vision a long time ago, playing out, and they're all respectable people with different backgrounds. One traditional Wall Street, one Napster, one, uh, uh, Google. Seriously. I mean, when I get a diversity of people that are very, very bright, and I'm going to be putting six podcasts from the three of them up this weekend. You gotta go watch this stuff and be on top of it.

• 49:27Speaker 04

  Ladies and gentlemen, that's it. I appreciate all of you guys watching. We got a lot of new people who've been watching this lately. We appreciate you. Make sure you subscribe to the channel. Tell your friends, text this to somebody, leave a funny comment for Jordy. The funniest ones I actually screenshot and send to him sometimes. It makes him laugh, think that we're all smart over here. Uh, make sure you go to YouTube, check out Jordy Visser, just type in Jordy Visser, Jordy with an I, and hit subscribe there. That's the digital thank you to him doing such a great job every single week. And then go and check out Sylvia. Go to Sylvia.com, S I L V I A.com. If you want to use AI to better manage your finances and your portfolio. We've got a very interesting announcement coming out on Monday. So a little alpha for all of you. We'll see you guys all next week.