Bitcoin Is About To Go Parabolic Because Of AI Agents | Jordi Visser

Jordi Visser is a veteran macro investor with 30+ years of experience and the author of the VisserLabs Substack. In this conversation, we break down why bitcoin and stocks refused to crash even as the Fed hiked rates, why AI agents are now driving crypto's next leg higher, and why the real "AI bubble" lives inside just two companies. We also get into Andrew Yang's bombshell AI lab claims and why Jordi remains a bitcoin maxi for the next 30 years. ====================== Arch Public is an agentic trading platform that automates investment strategies across Stocks, Commodities, ETFs and Crypto. Whether you’re rotating into AI & Gold, allocating to the S&P 500, or accumulating Bitcoin, Arch Public executes your plan 24/7 without ever taking custody of your assets or funds. Sign up today at https://www.archpublic.com, and start your FREE automated trading strategy! ====================== New description for Lava with a clickable url: Lava is a global platform for bitcoin financial services. Spend with Lava Card and earn up to 5% back in bitcoin with every purchase— all with no annual fee, no FX fees, and zero spread. Plus you can borrow against your bitcoin at the lowest rates, earn yield on cash, and move fiat or stablecoins globally. Get started at https://www.lava.xyz/POMP ====================== TOKEN2049 returns to Singapore on October 7–8 at Marina Bay Sands. The world's largest crypto event. 25,000 attendees, 300 speakers, 1,000 side events and the whole industry in one place for two days, into the F1 weekend. Get 10% off your ticket with code POMP10 at https://token2049.com/singapore ====================== 0:00 - Intro0:51 - Why bitcoin & stocks didn't crash when the Fed hiked rates4:44 - The liquidity cycle is broken (there are no more recessions)14:34- AI agents solve impossible problems & what it means for the future 23:18 - Andrew Yang's AI lab bombshell claim33:21 - Instinct AI & the rise of agent-run personal assistants40:10 - Recursive self-improvement: AI outpacing human comprehension43:22- Why Jordi is a bitcoin maxi for the next 30 years48:06 - Bitcoin vs altcoins: are AI agents the new demand source?55:54 - What would make Jordi change his mind?1:02:33 - Bitcoin breaks back above $80,000 & Jordi launches his crypto research

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:50Speaker 02

  And this is where I'm a Bitcoin maxi in the very long term. Woo, no, no, no. I believe if you want to continue, let's let me rephrase it. I want an asset that will be growing in value for the next 30 years. The only one I can say in my brain with certainty for the next 30 years, not the next five, not the next three that I believe is Bitcoin. That's it.

• 1:09Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Today we have an excellent conversation with Jordy Visser. In this one, we go through what's going on in AI. Why all of a sudden when interest rates were raised? Why did Bitcoin stocks, all this stuff not crash? What is going on in the US economy? Why does Jordy think that Bitcoin's going higher? Other cryptos are going higher. How does he think about all of the agent swarms and issues that are coming out of the AI industry? And then Jordy just gives it to us straight. Exactly where he thinks value is going to accrue over the next couple of years, what he's excited about, what he's not excited about, and how it could impact your portfolio. This one is excellent. Here's my latest conversation with Jordy Visser. All right, Jordy, Bitcoin has held pretty steady. Actually, it's up a little bit since the Fed decided to raise interest rates. Stock market as well, pretty much flat. AI indexes, they're up.

• 1:51Anthony Pompliano?

  I think that people are a little offside or shaken that if the Fed increases interest rates, aren't these assets all supposed to go down? What's going on here?

• 1:59Speaker 02

  I think you can take it back further. Let's say June 30th. What's happened since June 30th? That was the end of Q2. Stocks are unchanged, both NASDAQ and S and P. Oil's a lot higher. I don't know if you've heard, but oil is going to take down the world. Tenure rates, they're up a lot. I don't know if you heard this, they're up a lot. Whole system's going to crack.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Situational awareness happened in July. AI bubbles unwound. Everything's going to crash. We're in a 1998, we're in a 2009, whatever you want. We get out of July and then what happens? Besson's going to go intervene in the yen and then he's going to change the buybacks. And then he's going to do this. It's going to make rates go down. Rates go higher. The war gets worse. Oil goes higher. Fed's not going to raise rates. Fed raises rates. Clarity Act is going to go through. Clarity Act doesn't go through. Not only is Bitcoin Ethereum, everything's sitting up here. Ethereum's up over 50% quarter to date. So with all the news I just said, climbing a wall of worry is a big deal. Um, if you ask me what's going on, it's very simple to me.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  You got to go back to situational awareness. And everyone who's listening, he hates when I do this. Pause, pause for a second. Go to your smartphone and just so give me the image on page 71 of Leopold situational awareness, 165 page paper. And I want you to look at that exact point. And that's where

• 3:32Anthony Pompliano?

  We'll just pull it up here so you don't have to pause.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  That's where, that's where agents take over, AI agents take over. And I think what has happened to crypto, plain and simple, is the enthusiasm came from, oh, the basement's coming. And I will keep saying it for all of you people listening. You want rates to go higher and crypto to go higher because a true technology, a true innovation means it is not sensitive to that. This has been a big mistake that I have strong disagreement with the entire crypto community that Bitcoin is just liquidity. No, Bitcoin has been liquidity because there hasn't been innovation that has been used. When you get to the inflection point where innovation starts to be used, like with the iPhone,

• 4:18Speaker 02

  then that growth and innovation happens without the business cycle, without liquidity. So if you truly to be what everyone believes it's going to be, which I believe it is now, you actually need the true users of crypto to come into play.

• 4:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, if rates are going up, which they did just this week, and crypto is still going up, people will say, okay, if Bitcoin was sensitive to liquidity before, will it be sensitive going forward? And I ask that because I don't know if you've seen the chart, the M2 money supply is going up and Bitcoin used to track very nicely. And there have been times where they diverged and you get kind of the alligator, you know, mouth. But then when it closes, there's a violent move in Bitcoin to catch up to M2. We have been living through for the last, I don't know, 18 months or so, that divergence again. And so M2 has been growing, Bitcoin has been down. And there's a belief in the Bitcoin community that those jaws are going to close. Bitcoin's going to violently move up.

• 5:16Anthony Pompliano?

  What I hear you saying is maybe that was true in the past, but the drivers of Bitcoin's price going forward may be more reliant on AI agents and other innovation more so than what's going on in the macro world? Is that a fair summarization?

• 5:32Speaker 02

  So I'm spending a lot of time. So one of the reasons that I wanted to do this with you is this moment in time.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  The four year cycle to me is reflective of the liquidity cycle. Um, I was just listening to someone who I respect talk about the liquidity cycle. The liquidity

• 5:52Anthony Pompliano?

  There could only be one guy who talks about the liquidity cycle nonstop.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Well, no, we're probably thinking of the same person. It wasn't him, but it was someone directly related to him. Here's the thing I'll say is, um, in fact, that person, he and I spoke one time and I said, there's no such thing as recessions anymore.

• 6:10Anthony Pompliano?

  I agree with that.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Okay. So if you don't have recessions anymore, the liquidity cycle is not the same. That doesn't mean that the government doesn't try to prevent stock market crashes and prevent possible recessions that they're worried about. So when you look at the liquidity cycle, you have to remember what makes M2 go down is when humans start getting worried about things and they start hoarding cash and they start putting it into non-economic places. They're paying off debt or they're doing something, but they're not actually generating GDP with it. So there has been a link between liquidity forever and M2. And then you get GDP. And then you know what happens after you get GDP?

• 6:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Hmm.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Liquidity turns into more jobs. We're not doing that anymore. It turns into profits first and then it goes into there. So we have the S and P 500 growing at 30% earnings and the hiring ex healthcare is negative over the last 20 months. Think about that. We've had no job creation over the last 20 months, except for healthcare.

• 7:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Fraud. Go ahead.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  So we have no job creation. How are we breaking it? So the, the percentage of capital versus labor is now at, at the worst in history for labor. So we've broken the liquidity mechanism. Now, how is the stock market growing so fast? Because liquidity leads to nominal GDP. Nominal GDP is top line revenue, money transaction. People get hired, they spend more money. How in God's name do we actually have this mechanism still working? This is why the liquidity cycle is not about Bitcoin anymore. Liquidity cycle in 2009 began with the efficiency of productivity finally entering up. So the internet was born in 1994 in terms of when Netscape went public. Then we had the dot com bubble. That was the version of crypto, that period into the dot com bubble and after where we

• 8:02Speaker 02

  were building the rails for commerce. It didn't come until the smartphone came. And when the smartphone came, we had an explosion of productivity that showed up in profit margins. It did not show up in GDP, but I've talked about that. It's a horrible index for what we're dealing with with software and intangibles. But what is happening now is we've broken the liquidity mechanism. So I will say it again to everyone. We will be having more liquidity in the system, but not through the liquidity measures that people talk about. Tokenization unleashes dormant assets, $900 trillion of assets of which two thirds just sit and do nothing. They will be used as collateral. They will be in daily transactions. You won't have to go to get a, a, a borrow money from your bank. It'll be programmable and stuff.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  We post something for a period of time, waiting for your receivables to come in and then it goes. The whole system will be based on the velocity of money. So remember liquidity M2 is about the government putting money into the system. We have plenty of money to run the system. That's showing up in profit margins is showing a top line revenue.

• 9:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you hear that right now?

• 9:05Speaker 02

  From whom? Me? Yes.

• 9:06Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, no. Do you hear? If you open your ear?

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:09Anthony Pompliano?

  It's everyone laughing at the Fed and saying, you thought you were going to tank the stock market? You thought you were going to slow us down? They're just pouring money in, even though rates went up. And I think part of this is yes, there is less rate sensitivity in some of these names. But I also think that there is a full blown psychological revolution that has occurred where run the counter example or analysis. What would have to happen for all of the people who are talking about stocks on X or on YouTube, sit inside these firms to actually stop buying? I don't think I could think of a single thing that could occur that could get them to stop buying.

• 9:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Because probably the single worst thing that could have happened, happened. In 2020, they locked everyone in their houses. They stopped the velocity of money and they basically froze the world as best they could. And stocks ended the year higher than they started.

• 10:11Anthony Pompliano?

  So if you think of that, it just was like we pulled back the curtain like Wizard of Oz style and everyone's like, wait a minute. No matter what happens, if you keep buying stocks, you're going to make money. And it feels like that actually broke the market almost more than anything else. And that's why maybe interest rates, like all of this stuff, like the innovation thing is big, but the psychology piece feels like it is a huge piece of it as well.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  All right. So. Rather than like

• 10:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you disagree?

• 10:45Speaker 02

  No, no, I agree. In fact, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take it to a higher extreme.

• 10:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Woo!

• 10:50Speaker 02

  So in 2020, we shut down the economy.

• 10:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you about to out crazy me?

• 10:56Speaker 02

  Well, I'm about to take you through a timeline of, let's assume it's back at December 31st of 2019.

• 11:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Okay, we're gonna shut the economy for a period of time. Assets are gonna collapse significantly. Yields, credit yields for almost all corporate credits IG are gonna go to double digits. And yes, we end, we end that year with stocks higher somehow. Everyone's worried about dying, truly dying, not the AI is gonna kill us all, but truly, we're watching people die. We're watching the hospitals be overrun and yet the stock market's up. Then we get to 2022. We go from 0% rates to five aggressively, like never before, and inflation is double digits. The market that year is down, but very quickly the following year, despite the fact that in 2023,

• 11:47Speaker 02

  we also have Silicon Valley Bank goes out of business. The largest bank that goes from they're healthy to zero ever. And we start seeing money leave the banking system. It's leaving all small banks. We're getting many small bank closures. We finish that year higher on the year. Then we get a new president. We go into 2025. We're gonna go back to Smoot Hawley and we're gonna put tariffs on everything. Massive tariffs. Everyone calls for another recession. So let's take that period there.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  There's no recession during all of those events. In especially the 2022 one, where we raised aggressively. And everyone said, this is gonna be a problem. This is, it was a guaranteed recession. The Fed was saying, sell your stocks. Then you get to this year, we shut down the Strait of Hormuz. So Smoot Hawley, Strait of Hormuz, bank runs, a pandemic, and the most aggressive Fed rate hikes in history. No recessions. So now we're gonna worry about a 25 basis point move by the Fed.

• 12:55Anthony Pompliano?

  A race for ants.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is discounted in the market ahead of them doing it. Oh my God, they raised rates. It was a hawkish Fed rate hike. So I think people are missing the bigger story. The bigger story is we are in a productivity boom showing through profit margins. We are not hiring human beings. We're in a point where and go, we have a cancer vaccine that comes out. And as I'm gonna show this weekend, when we say humanity is going to die, 170 million views. The Matt Schumer article about all jobs, the Citrini article about no job, about all jobs being lost. 20, 30, 40 million. Cancer vaccine, 10.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Nobody wants to hear about the good news that's coming from AI. They only wanna hear about the bad news. So for all of you listening, playing this stupid game of the people telling you that the market's gonna crash because AI is this, or this is this, or the debt is coming, or all of this. The market has discounted all of scenarios they've said because the PE multiple has gone down this year while earnings have gone higher. So I just think people have, are overestimating constantly the sensitivity that all of these linear things of the past. Smoot Hawley, oil, interest rates, all of this stuff are gonna take down the world and they've done it repeatedly. And it hasn't happened. What is happening right now is the most unbelievable technology is making things better and better for us.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Every day, solving math problems that have been around since before Einstein. This is happening regularly and it's only gonna accelerate from here.

• 14:29Anthony Pompliano?

  So two things. There was no recession because not only is there less sensitivity to this stuff, but also it's rigged. If you remember, we had two quarters of negative GDP growth during that period. They just said, oh, that's not really a recession because we have a monopoly on being able to call a recession versus not. Now, the reason I say that is it was quote, quote, so bad, yet they wouldn't acknowledge what was happening. Because I actually think that they understand this. They understand that the market cannot go down for prolonged periods of time. And I continue to say, I don't think we're gonna get like an 18 month recession. I don't think I'll see that again in my lifetime. And the traditionalist will get very upset and say, what are you talking about, etc.

• 15:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Some of it is innovation and productivity driven. Some of it is just they have a monetary bazooka that they are willing to fire at the market whenever it is needed.

• 15:24Anthony Pompliano?

  The second piece of this is we are creating jobs in America. We're just not creating human jobs. And I think that we've talked about this in the past where at, take our public company. There are less than 15 humans that work there. We may have close to 100 digital AI agent employees. I don't know what the exact number is, but it is multiples of the humans. To the point where just on one system in Grokbot, I don't know, I probably have 10 or 15 bots just there myself. And so you look at that and you say to yourself, do the economic measurements need to change? Do, are we gonna have to recalibrate how we think about the health of the US economy?

• 16:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Because to your point, we're looking at outdated metrics to measure this. If you keep looking at those metrics, trying to invest in the future, I, you're gonna struggle. And I think that's, you know, your ma, your major point here is just like you are going to struggle to invest using these metrics.

• 16:27Anthony Pompliano?

  So what should they do? Should they create new ones? Should they evolve the definition of these? Like, what are you doing with these metrics? And how are you thinking about them differently so that you can invest going forward?

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Well, I know that these metrics are wrong for where we are today. And unfortunately, I know they're gonna get more wrong going forward.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Let's just

• 16:49Speaker 02

  very seldom do I remember a month like this month in my life where all of the dots come together and it's all related to AI agents. The Navier-Stokes thing for people, they should understand, and I'm gonna put it into a way that everyone can, can comprehend the importance of it. So, and this will get into your point about how statistics don't fit. And this will end with Eli Lilly. Okay, so we'll go from Navier-Stokes and I'll end with Eli Lilly. I had no plan for this, but my brain just popped Eli Lilly into my head and said, let's do that. So Navier-Stokes.

• 17:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's go for a ride, Jordy.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, you, you, you've been around me now long enough. I can go for a good five minutes now and give you something. So let's take Navier-Stokes and rather than go through what it is and bore people with fluid dynamics. Let's just view it as it's a math problem that has existed for a long time. That if you've seen Good Will Hunting, you've seen it?

• 17:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  One of my favorite movies. So you remember the professor who is working with Nat Damon? He won the Fields Medal, which is basically like the Nobel Prize for mathematics. So this is a big deal, these, these math problems. So OpenAI releases that they've solved it. Now, humans get mad. Some say they're copying it, whatever. I'll get into that with Eli Lilly. But the main point is they had 10,000 agents deal with the problem. Now, if you ask me, could this problem have been solved by humans? I will be the first one to say, absolutely, it could have been solved by humans. The question is not, could it have been solved by humans instead of AI? The answer is, of course it could. What's the problem?

• 18:28Speaker 02

  The problem is if you want the Fields Medal, you can't be sharing your information and your great thing. So you just kinda lock yourself in a box and you try to solve the problem. You know what that'll remind people of? The movie Oppenheimer. You had Grove, you had Oppenheimer. Groves want, he wanted everyone to go into their own little place. You're gonna work on metals. You're gonna work. And then you guys will come together with your findings. And what did Oppenheimer say? No, no, I want all of the scientists together. Because I think if you take a bunch of brains together and they brainstorm together, you're gonna get to a solution there. As long as the egos are checked at the door and you guys are working towards the same problem. AI agents don't have human greed. They don't have this. So they're able to save problems, not through their, just their tireless work and their intelligence,

• 19:11Speaker 02

  but also through the collaboration. So 10,000 agents work together. They're set on different paths, just like Oppenheimer. They come back with solutions, then they work and they go to the next one, next one, until they solve the problem. The reason that eventually leads to Eli Lilly and gets back to your point.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  That this is the beginning because we didn't have this capability six months ago. That is why the hugging face hacking the 10 10% chance humanity dies. It's related to the agents getting so good that they could break into the internet, create their own thing, bust the internet and everything will dissolve. And you can hack into everything in the planet. But at the same time, you can solve a problem that's been around since before Einstein. There were 600, I think, brainiacs as part of the Manhattan Project. This was 10,000 brainiacs. It'll be a million. So what problems can't we solve? That's why the cancer vaccine, all of this stuff will end up being a part of it. And this is why I say to Eli Lilly, so what does that mean?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Every human attempt to solve a great problem that gets up to the 20 yard line. They're in the red zone. You're putting the red zone on, on, on TV and you're like, okay, I'm going to watch the touchdown. These touchdowns are going to be happening. The red zone is going to be very busy because AI agents are going to finish that last part, that five humans, 10 humans, they shared information, but it wasn't viral. It wasn't everyone on the planet. So it's not that human beings, if you stuck 160 IQ people in a room, 10,000 of them, they'd be able to solve the problem. The problem is we don't have that. So where Eli Lilly figured this out is like, that means all of this dormant IP that exists, all these biotech companies, they've got something that people invested in. Let's go through all of their stuff and see which public information on their research

• 20:55Speaker 02

  is worth something and let's finish it. Let's, let's get a cancer cure. Let's get something for cholesterol. This is why I say we're entering a period where the statistics of what happened, that human beings solve problems, that human beings drove growth. It's over. So GDP cannot like longevity, increasing longevity, nobody dying from cancer. How does that impact GDP? You have to think really hard to go through. If everyone lives another 75 years healthy, what does that mean? So I'm going to bring it back one more time and make sure people hear this. This is the reason why I use the stock market. This is the reason why when you read Stan Druckenmiller and he says, the best economist in the world, stock market. I believe that too. Rates in oil are higher. This is bad for the stock market.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  The stock market is down since those two went higher. But you know what part of it is? It's anything related to home building, anything related to consumer staples, anything. If you go through and you look, and I'll be showing that this weekend. Okay, guys, their earnings are down. The problem is it doesn't change Micron's earnings. It doesn't change Google's earnings.

• 21:59Anthony Pompliano?

  AI queue, the AI ETF is up, I think I looked this morning, 25% year to date.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  And that, so the problem is oil and rates are having an impact, but they're having an impact on the economy that existed before. So when you're listening to an economist who went to Harvard and he was trained really well, he studied history. Are you going to tell that person that spent all this money and all this time? And has been told for years how brilliant they are. And all of a sudden you're going to say, hey, everything you learned is worthless. Of course not.

• 22:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, I've been saying that on the internet for a long time and they, they're not listening. But yeah.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  But that's the whole point is that luckily my father, I've said this before. My father told me at a young age, don't believe anything you hear from anywhere.

• 22:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Adjust your odds on predictions of the future based on a Bayesian philosophy. There's new information. The problem is, in my experience, having worked with very smart people, the more educated, the more stubborn and less likely to change your views. That has been the number one biggest negative with crypt for crypto. Because for all you crypto fans out there, who controls the world's money? The world's money is controlled for the most part by the most educated people. So why believe in something that you don't need to use Michael Saylor's quote, Bitcoin finds you eventually.

• 23:09Anthony Pompliano?

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• 23:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Lava keeps it simple and they help you build your long-term savings via your everyday spend. Visit lava.xyz slash pump to get started in just a few minutes today. Lava.xyz slash pump to get started today. So you know who Andrew Yang is?

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? I saw the. You saw where he went on CNBC? So there's two components to this. The first is what you're describing of, okay, we had a couple of smart humans go together and they tried to solve a problem. The way that I, the best phrase I heard describing the solving of this hard math problem was brute force. And I thought that that was like the perfect example. It's like, they just threw so many quote, quote, digital people with high intelligence at the problem that in 88 hours, they were able to run through whatever 10,000 years of people trying to solve this, right? And so just naturally like you eventually figure it out.

• 24:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Then the open AI hugging face incident is the negative side of this. And I think every single smart person I know has not really talked that much about this publicly. Because in private, what they're all saying, there's more to this story. And I don't know what that is. And so I don't want to have egg on my face when I come out and talk about it. We got a breadcrumb this week on CNBC. I have no clue if this is true.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:16Anthony Pompliano?

  But Andrew Yang, who I would actually put him, I listened to a, a speech he gave in Philadelphia. This is maybe almost 10 years ago. And he was very pro technology. He was very much like, hey, I want to be the president of the United States and I'm going to embrace technology. I probably disagree with a lot of his ideas, but I like the fact that he's pro technology. He claims that he talked to a lab leader. So somebody who is in a leadership position at one of the labs. And they claim, and I think the exact thing that he talked about was self replicating code. And they littered the internet. And then he went as far as to say, the reason why Anthropic and OpenAI are saying, whoa, slow down is because these agents basically can respawn themselves and do this exact same

• 25:59Anthony Pompliano?

  thing over and over again, because they have polluted the internet. And now in order for them to train models, they, he claims Anthropic and OpenAI believe they have to build a synthetic internet to now train on.

• 26:13Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm just going to call it what I think it is. This sounds batshit crazy, but given the times we're living in, it's not a 0% probability. Like, I don't know, maybe it's a 20% probability. That's what happened? How do you, as an investor, somebody who's building with this, using this technology? How do you navigate a story that scares a lot of people? They know they don't know everything. And then you get some crazy detail like that said publicly by somebody who I think most people are like, all right, he's not incentivized to like, you know, lie or, or make it up.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  This is called living life. I mean, I hate to say this, but do you think you know everything that's happened? That we were this close to extinction of the planet over the last whatever? Do you think if they knew that an asteroid was coming to the earth and was going to hit here in 50 years, that they'd be publicly saying that this is going on?

• 27:07Anthony Pompliano?

  They tell us everything.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Of course. So here, here, here's the reality of the situation.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  Do I believe that we haven't seen everything? Yes. Do I believe that the pause is related to the security risk, meaning the progress getting ahead of the safety 100%? Do I also believe that Andrew Yang has a political reason to say what he said? Yes, 100%. Do I think it's possible that one of the labs that said it to Andrew Yang is also a political? Like.

• 27:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you calling it a, maybe a, I think in history we've called them influence operations or a psyop from the labs? And we have found a useful, uh, person who will go and repeat what they told him?

• 27:51Speaker 02

  I naturally don't trust.

• 27:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Any human.

• 27:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Man, you are so politically correct. Live a little, Jordy.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  No, I, but I, I just think in a world where people's incentives have always tended to lead with themselves. I just.

• 28:07Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't disagree that there's a very high odds that he was fed information that would enhance the lab's initiatives.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, so I think the main point to people is, um, we don't know every, right now, if I had to guess since nine 11, how many terror plots do you think were stopped by the United States government that were significant?

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Hundreds?

• 28:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Easily.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Okay, so I don't see it as any different. Yes, I believe AI is a dangerous thing, but I also believe bioterrorism is dangerous and missiles are dangerous and nuclear is dangerous and all these things are dangerous and there are humans that want to do things. And what I'm hopeful is that by them finding this and already coming up with what the next solution would be, that's the way you figure out how to continue to grow. I think the pause that will happen, which is why when I got an outreach on, and this happens, because I talked to so many hedge fund people, the outreach on Sunday of this week before the futures opened up, two funny parts about this.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  One is people calling me up going, I know what you're gonna say, but is this an overreaction? Yes, this is an overreaction. This will not stop compute. If anything, it'll probably accelerate compute. So that was the first one. The second one was how far down do you think the S and P will be when it opens? And my answer was, why don't you go to Coinbase and look at the spy perps? And so I like doing this stuff now to people because I'm like, you realize the market's trade 24/7, guys, you can go look at anything you want. You better start paying attention to why Stan Druckenmiller bought into hyper liquid and start understanding what a perp is. So I do think that this stuff goes on. I do think that people have to realize that part of the reason that the S and P multiple

• 29:58Speaker 02

  has contracted, and I've talked about it before, I am not bullish on the growth in public equities as an investment by the time we get to 2030. The reason for that is what I read in situational awareness and we are exactly on pace, if not six months ahead, in Leopold's article. You should all pull it up and one day when you have a couple of hours, ask for the timeline. I'll be showing it on the video, but societal impacts are happening. Governments are being polarized. We've got one party that wants to stop data centers. Like this is all part of the forecast that would happen. The part that we start to get into is that all companies will be disrupted.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Hackings will happen, which is the main reason why for me, what people have to start understanding, and I will be spending a lot of time with the wealthiest institutions on the planet. This week I start my crypto focus, research, video, every single week. But it is going to be making people understand why I have 46 names in the index, what it represents, what ghost rails are, what this whole situation is, because the blockchain is one of the solutions to the problem we're talking about. Agents will be transacting with each other. The blockchain is necessary, like everything about what is bad for agent swarms reaching this point is fantastic for crypto, which is why at the end of the day, for all of you

• 31:20Speaker 02

  thinking this is going to happen because of liquidity, no, this is not about liquidity. This is about dormant liquidity that's been locked up forever in this Fiat Ponzi scheme, finally being able to be used to buy coffee and agents will be the one doing it, where friction of time finally comes in because humans wanted to keep things at these long settlements because the middlemen make vig's on it. Well, this isn't going to happen when agents are making decisions. And I'll finish it with this. I had a story said to me, which I didn't know was true. Maybe you've heard this.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  This person said to me that they went to go buy a ticket for an airline on Delta. Okay. And they went at say, two o'clock in the afternoon, they didn't buy it. They came back later in the day and the price was significantly higher. And then they came back again and it was higher again. And they interpreted this, that it was a personalized price movement that they understood, and it sounded very agentic to me. So I had no idea. Have you heard this?

• 32:25Anthony Pompliano?

  No.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  So if you go just type in, has this been happening? Is this a complaint that's happened from customers that AI agents are trying to get the best price on things?

• 32:37Speaker 02

  I don't know, they haven't admitted anything. So for Delta, I'm not saying this is true, but if you go on the internet or you're just going to an LLM and you ask, this has gotten to the government complaint side and it has been something there and it makes sense to me.

• 32:50Anthony Pompliano?

  What exactly are the agents doing?

• 32:51Speaker 02

  The agents are driving the price higher, thinking that the person, they're trying to personalize the ability of the person to pay. So this is a way for companies to make more money. It's kind of like if you go, I mean StubHub.

• 33:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Basically, they're using AI. They're using AI to try to predict, how much do I think Jordy will pay for this flight?

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Relative to another person.

• 33:10Anthony Pompliano?

  At the same time, now the consumers are armed with AI agents who are basically, what are all the angles to get Delta to give me a cheaper price?

• 33:17Speaker 02

  And that's the way.

• 33:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Agent on agent warfare.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  And that's what normalizes everything. Because in the end, the agents that are controlling the wallets win. The company agents do not win because they only have one thing to do. This agent can go to a billion other airlines, go through a billion other channels, and more importantly, can be anonymous. This is why privacy, business to business. So when you hear about Zcash and you hear about Near and you hear about these things and you go, why are these things leading? Like, these are the things leading right now in September. And you could say, well, this is DeFi cash. This is that, no, to me, this is the rise of agents and privacy. They're, they're needed because business to business in this Delta example, meaning Jordy's business wants to go buy a ticket. He doesn't want them to know who they are and where he's normally sits and all this.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  So the agent is anonymous and they're just dealing in this transaction and moving around. You can do that when you can go through it. This is why, if you guys haven't seen it yet, have you seen the company Instinct AI?

• 34:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I use it.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  You do?

• 34:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  Do you like it?

• 34:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I like it a lot.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Okay, so if you guys haven't seen this, we're in the personal assistant world. So this is what agents are going to do. Now, I'm sure you haven't used it with wallet. Have you used it with wallet stuff yet?

• 34:28Anthony Pompliano?

  No.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  Okay, but you use it for like other things, not just the email, but like if you're going to go travel to another country and you need to get a visa and get your documents out, it'll do all your documents for you.

• 34:38Anthony Pompliano?

  I'll give you a perfect example I used it for. I had a breakfast scheduled for Thursday at 7:00 AM, 7:00 AM guy. And it was with two very important people. And I had it go and make the reservation.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Three very important.

• 34:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Send the calendar invite. Well, I'll tell you a funny thing that one of these important people did. I actually think you know one of them. And then they emailed me the next day and said, hey, by the way, we need to move it to Friday. So usually that would be a pain. You gotta go, you gotta do the calendar invite, then you gotta go cancel one reservation, you gotta do. And so I was just like, could it do it? I didn't give it credentials, any of this stuff, right? And I just said, move the reservation to Friday. And it instinctively knew, move the calendar invite, cancel Thursday, make reservation for Friday. And it didn't, it came back in like two minutes. And I said to myself, that was awesome.

• 35:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, as you know, when you go to breakfast with two very important people, this one genius today wanted to fight me over who was going to pay. And he, I'm going to give alpha to everyone right now. He turned to the waitress and said, he can't pay, it's his birthday. And of course she was like, oh, I can't let you pay. And so now I feel like I'm armed with a new, a new little trick is if you ever get in a, in a who's going to pay battle, just drop that one real quick and you'll win. But this whole instinct thing was, it was incredibly impressive. And so now I've started to kind of put like, what else could it do? And there's been a couple of other things like that where I've been like, okay, we're in a different regime now.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Have you seen the valuation of the company now? They're trying to raise that.

• 36:16Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't want to brag, but there is a up and coming, very good, young investor who I invested in his fund to support him, but also I thought he could do a good job. And he's been talking about things are going well, but he hasn't really been talking. And he recently sent an update. He said, fine, I'll tell you guys. He was one of the early investors in Instinct. And so my exposure is like miniscule compared to anyone who invested directly. But I said to him, I said, that one decision is probably going to make his career. I mean, this thing went from founded to 10 billion in a year.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  A year.

• 36:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Year and a half, something like that.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  If you look at like a month ago, the rumors were valuation of two and a half billion. Now the valuation is 10. So again, I let the market speak to me about what's happening. Instinct is critical to crypto.

• 37:10Anthony Pompliano?

  One of my favorite Peter Thiel lessons. The more steep the valuation climb, the more likely the company is undervalued.

• 37:23Anthony Pompliano?

  And so when people see something go from 500 million to 2.5 billion to 10 billion in less than three months, the average person would say it's overvalued. This is insane. Why are people doing that? One of the best venture investors in the world claims when you see that, that actually means that 10 billion would be undervalued. Like there's way more runway. There's something that the market knows that people don't, which I think lines up directly with you saying like, hello, guys, this is a way bigger market. These are way more important technologies and products than people are giving, you know, a kind of credit to at the moment.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. And here's the issue, and this fits into Anthropic and OpenAI. Why is everyone scared about the AI bubble? Why are they scared of it? Well, because Anthropic and OpenAI are basically the AI bubble. Like they're going to control as much as 50% of compute a year from now.

• 38:14Anthony Pompliano?

  You think so?

• 38:16Speaker 02

  That's what all the story is somewhere between a third and 50%. Brad Gerson just talked about it on the All in Pod, on his presentation at the summit. So you can go look at the deck. I mean, we're talking about them controlling 50% of compute. Compute is the entire S and P 500 right now, as far as I'm concerned. Like it's all about compute. So two companies, they're not even public. They don't release their numbers. Instinct.

• 38:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, they have 80% margins before COGS.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  Instinct, I'm sure if you go look, how much money have you paid Instinct?

• 38:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Zero.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  So, but they're worth 10 billion. Meta is a personal assistant company.

• 38:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Have you used Muse yet?

• 38:54Speaker 02

  I haven't used Muse yet.

• 38:55Anthony Pompliano?

  So I recently signed up. I am doing a little experiment and I'm going to kind of come out and say, okay, I've used Grok, I've got Instinct, I'm going to use Muse. There's a lot of overlap in what they can do, but I do think the interfaces, the setup, the way that they present the products, like there's some significant differences.

• 39:12Anthony Pompliano?

  I actually think that we're going to end up using multiple ones, but it is fascinating to me because the common layer among all of this is the context, the memory. And it feels like people are now mentally wrapping their head around, I am long the idea of personal assistants or Sylvia or, you know, ChatGPT or Claude or whatever. So like the interface and the compute component or the model, I think people are like, duh, this is going to be valuable. I am shocked at how little attention the memory layer is getting. And memory not just being in the sense of memory for me as an individual, and I want to be able to use Instinct or Grok or Muse.

• 39:58Anthony Pompliano?

  But when a new one comes out, we were just talking with, with some of the folks here, you know, Matt, our video editor and Isaac were talking about, when a new one comes out, they almost feel like I don't want to go sign up for it because in two weeks there's going to be a new one. And how do you keep doing that? Well, if you have one shared memory, you can almost use these as databases. Now that reminds me, did, I don't know if you follow Signal, S I G N U L L on X? Very good follow, very thoughtful anonymous account. And

• 40:28Anthony Pompliano?

  I think it's a guy, he was talking about this idea of he doesn't actually go into the apps anymore. So he was talking about his email. He interfaces with his email via the agents. And so he was like, my email has just become a database. It's just a, you know, a record tracker. I do my email in the agent interface of chat or whatever. And so why do I need to go into Gmail? If that's where the world is headed, nobody is ready.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  So let me ask you one question, then I'm going to, I'm going to direct this towards the most important thing I will say to people on this and possibly ever in this bridging of, of the current world, the agentic side in crypto. So in your example of the restaurant,

• 41:17Speaker 02

  you could have done that yourself, right?

• 41:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Maybe, yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 41:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I'm not too smart, but yeah.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  You could have asked someone else.

• 41:24Anthony Pompliano?

  I'll try.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Whatever. If you did it yourself,

• 41:28Speaker 02

  what did you save? You didn't save any money. What'd you save?

• 41:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Time.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Okay. So this is the thing I want to, I want to bring back to people. When you gave me the discussion about Matt and Isaac and they can't keep up with AI, that means we've reached a point of effectively recursive self-improvement, meaning the models are being released faster than we can comprehend how to go through. That's all that means. Like they're coming out too fast. It's not that we don't have the capabilities. It's going too fast.

• 41:59Anthony Pompliano?

  There's one nuance, which is models, yes, I actually think that if we just look over the last six months, we got Claude updates. We got a lot of Chinese open source. We got Astra, like, like there have been a number of models. I think that there's almost this blending though of like model and product now. Like Muse is not necessarily the model, but Muse is wrapped around a model. And Astra comes out and now people are almost interchangeably thinking about like, I could use Astra or I could use Muse.

• 42:33Anthony Pompliano?

  And so like, maybe I would just say it's just the assault of options. And they're going to show up in so many different ways and formats. And it's like, you basically gave this brand new technology to really smart entrepreneurial people. And they're going to figure out every way to cut, slice it, et cetera, to go after users. And the users are on the other end. I'm like, oh my God, I'm under attack.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  So the app store for everyone on their phone, like, I don't know how many pages you have on your iPhone, but you have a lot. Because like, oh, this would be a great app to add. When they first came out, and I'll just use the GPS, the, the driving as there. I remember the first time someone told me about Waze and I was like, oh my God, it's got traffic and police. This is great. Okay. It took a while for Google Maps to catch up to Waze. And so I used Waze for, let's say a year or two, or maybe even three, before I've switched over to Google Maps. Now Waze comes out and then there's 1,700 of them the next day. They come out faster. So if you use the best one, it's going to be enormous. Again, I'm going to take it back to the exact same thing.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  In Leopold's figure 70 or page 71, at some point, we're moving so fast in terms of change that human beings can't keep up with it. And what do we need at that point? We need the agents. The agents are necessary to do the stuff for us. So eventually, like you have with your chief of staff in Grok, you will have a chief of staff where you say, hey, I want you to go build this stuff for me today. And it'll decide whether to use Astra or Claude or Google Maps or Waze. That's what's going to happen. The reason this is important is for all the crypto innovators, this has followed the same playbook as the internet, the exact same one. The internet comes out in 1994.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  We have the dot com bubble until 2008. So basically 14 years after, let's just say the original white paper, Netscape, as opposed to the Bitcoin white paper. You have people doubting it. The way I said, yeah, I was around some people and had dinner and they're like, they're done with Bitcoin, like they don't believe in it anymore. And I was like, wow, just as I'm saying, this is the beginning of the biggest move ever. But I'm glad you don't see it because you don't believe in the other stuff. And this is where I'm a Bitcoin maxi in the very long term. No, no, no. I believe if you want to continue, let's, let me rephrase it. I want an asset that will be growing in value for the next 30 years. The only one I can say in my brain with certainty for the next 30 years,

• 45:06Speaker 02

  not the next five, not the next three, that I believe is Bitcoin. That's it. The rest are innovations. They're like that story you gave of how many apps. It's like the L L Ms, they just go faster and the competition comes and growth has something to do with not just an innovative idea, but will competition catch up? And I think competition catches up. So the growth trajectory, the terminal value, as we talked about, is gone. So I have written a paper about ghost rails, which is when you go to China and you see all these buildings that are built, they were built for a reason. They were built by the Chinese believing that they'd be flooded with people. And the second that the people moved in, they'd start building restaurants and they'd start, and the ecosystem would just light up.

• 45:48Anthony Pompliano?

  These are the ghost cities in China.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  The ghost cities in China, that's where crypto is right now. They're ghost rails. They're not being used because humans would never use them for the reasons that you guys are talking about. We're not capable or needing something so fast that's fractionalized. We don't need it. Bitcoin, you need something like Bitcoin to bring the entrepreneurial capital. That's what the internet was. Ethereum and Bitcoin represent the internet. You don't know what it means. You don't know how to value it, but it is the thing that will have all of these layer twos built on top of it, which is what happens when you light up the city. The reason we are lighting up the city now, people, is because the users of those rails are finally coming in and they're Instinct AI, they're Muse, and they're all the ones that are coming. That's why the swarm,

• 46:34Speaker 02

  swarm equals crypto guardrails, plain and simple for me. And again, this is a macro person saying, I've seen this act before, the railroads. We build all these railroads. There's tons of debt. Yeah, because we're betting when the humans are going to use them relative to the debt maturing. This is not the same story. We are not building AI hoping that humans will come in and use it. We've solved that problem in October of last year. The agents were the ones who were going to use the compute. They're the ones sucking up the tokens and right now they're about to suck up. Transactions and payments because consumer agents will be the story for the next year.

• 47:09Anthony Pompliano?

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• 47:54Anthony Pompliano?

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• 48:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Balaji, and Eric Trump. Crypto and traditional finance in the same building, which tells you a lot about where this is going. And the conference runs right into F1 weekend, so the whole thing turns into one giant week. If you're headed to Singapore, use code POMP10 for 10% off your ticket. Token 2049, October 7th and 8th in Singapore. Go check them out in the link in the description. So I know that you're very bullish on non-Bitcoin crypto stuff, and as you know, I'm less bullish on that stuff. And some of it admittedly may just be, I historically have seen lots of promises, not a lot of results, and these things go up, they go down, you can trade it, right? But for the most part, everything ends up at

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Pets.com.

• 49:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Pets.com. Yeah, you just, people, they can go out into the wilderness, but they want to come home, and home is Bitcoin. It's basically the story of the crypto industry for a long time. Now, with that said, if I try to be as intellectually honest as possible, and I flip around the table and argue against that view, pretty much the only thing that I could wrap my head around where I'm like, okay, this would be my best argument, is you have a expanding market of users, not from humans, but from the agents. So if you go back to, you know, our company of 15 or less people, and tens of, maybe 100-plus agents, that's a pretty big expansion without the humans needing

• 49:58Anthony Pompliano?

  to grow very quickly. So if that is the case, then they do need somewhere to go. Now, the question, or maybe the thing I don't know, is do they just use stable coins of Bitcoin? Or do they go to what you call like these ghost rails? If they go long tail into the ghost rails, etc., then yes, you'll have a lot more usage, you'll have a lot more adoption, and just naturally you have assets that will go up in price. One detail that does not get a lot of attention, which I think is hiding in plain sight, you know who one of the most gung-ho kind of supportive people of AI, investing hundreds of millions of dollars in AI, and no one ever talks about them?

• 50:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Tether. Why is Tether investing so much money in AI? My belief is because Paolo understands exactly what's happening. And if you can create models, privacy, agents, stable coins, that becomes a stack that's really powerful. You know who else seems to be very interested in AI and crypto?

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Vlad.

• 51:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Vlad, but Stripe. I don't know if you saw the recent chart of Tempo, and all my friends over at Tempo will be excited that I'm bringing them up, but the chart is incredibly impressive. It's ramping. Now, what are they doing in terms of is Stripe somehow pushing it and giving it an advantage? Is there some sort of like seeding? You know, I always go back to when Figure Technologies first started, Mike wanted to create a decentralized DTCC or clearinghouse, and nobody was there. It was a ghost settlement. So he's like, well, I'll get in the origination business to kind of get one side of the marketplace going, and then I'll go and get the other side and induce them essentially. If that's what's happening, okay, we should probably understand that. But

• 51:50Anthony Pompliano?

  even if that's happening, adoption is ramping. And so you have some of the largest financial players in the world who all seem to be arriving at crypto and AI is merging here. And I think you're probably from the investment side, one of the only people in the world raising your hand saying, guys, this convergence is where majority of the asymmetry is going to be for the next five or 10 years.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  So let me take you down why this has been so interesting to me. I don't think I would have made this bet on AI and crypto merging, which is the bet I made two years ago, without having gone to Singularity University in 2013. I've talked about the story, but I came back from China, and the ghost city thing was now a past. It was basically, they're done. They're not going to be driving global growth anymore. One of the funniest things about, to get back to the oil thing, so one of my first trips to China, or maybe my third or fourth, oil was at

• 52:45Speaker 02

  150. That was back in 2008. I want to say that again. In 2008, the price of oil was 150. Where is it today? It's 100. Household net worth is up, I think, three and a half times. It's at 195 trillion, not the assets, the net worth. So I recognize that this was now stupid. We had printed money to an enormous potential. The oil price relative to disposable income is the lowest ever in the history of the country, yet oil matters to all of us. We're going to die with oil. It's going to kill the economy. Do you think one person who's worth three and a half

• 53:30Speaker 02

  times what they were worth, when that's the total sum, is three and a half times what it was when oil was 150? So now oil's at a discount, so relative to the household net worth. This is literally stupid. People try to scare you and they try to go through it. I went to Silicon Valley because I had to ask the question. I know the S and P 500 is about innovation. That's what it is. It's an innovation index. It's about things will be better. It's the Joseph Schumpeter we go through. It's the actual definition of we get rid of the weak, we keep the new, but it's about creative destruction. The MAG7 get to be concentrated, Anthropic and OpenAI, Duopoly, it's about creative destruction. So for me, as a macro person, I think I'm the

• 54:09Speaker 02

  only one my age that had the curiosity to go, if not commodities, if not housing, if not this, then what? What is this Amazon thing traded in Infinity PE for the last 17 years, up 26,000? I'm curious. I wanted to go see. And I went in there and heard that I wasn't going to die. And I'm looking around going, they're not talking about this on TV. They're saying we're all going to die tomorrow. I'm being told by you guys that we'll figure out how to live forever. And if that's the case, I need to change my macro mind and start thinking about what that means. And I didn't buy into Bitcoin at that point, but I did buy into by 2014 and 15 into

• 54:50Speaker 02

  the blockchain. It made sense to me that this is where business would be conducted. Now, fast forward a decade, it's playing the exact same path as the internet. And that's the one thing I will say to people. It took a long time. Netscape was 94, the iPhone was 2007. It was 13 years. The App Store came later, so let's say 2009. 15 years. When did the Bitcoin White Paper came out? Where are we now? We're on the exact same timeline. You need to have the users come in for the benefit of what happens. If there is no smartphone, there is no Uber. You can't carry your laptop around and start ordering. You needed this smartphone thing. And right now, the AI agents are there. So when I listen to one of the former, or one of the co-authors

• 55:34Speaker 02

  of the Transformer paper, which opened up AI, and I'm listening to him inside the crypto space in Near, doing this agent to agent, and I look at Near, and I see it going parabolic the same time that Zcash is, and the same time Instinct is coming out, I'm like, whoa, agents are happening. So I'm a macro person that does not believe he's smart. What I believe is, I let the market and the capital going as insider information for what's happening. That's why Bitcoin is not the right place to look. And for all of you who think, if you think that Bitcoin was going to get to $20 trillion without the wealthy old baby boomers to believe in it, you're crazy.

• 56:15Speaker 02

  Waiting for everyone to die to hand their money down to kids is not a short-term, what I'm talking about. You actually need the innovation to be useful. And as much as I love Bitcoin as collateral and as large transactions in the trust, Ethereum trust, these are the places that because of their size and their legacy, they will be the main ones that will make all of the institutions comfortable. You need an innovation to get the entrepreneurs to build on it and keep going. And that's where the ghost city comes in. For that, you need agents, and the agents are coming.

• 56:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, let me play devil's advocate. The ghost cities are still empty in China.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  No, they're not.

• 56:52Anthony Pompliano?

  The rails are still empty today.

• 56:57Anthony Pompliano?

  At what point do you say, we've gone long enough, I have to change my mind? Is this like, uh, over the next year, over the next five years? Like, how do you look at, we know the technology is there.

• 57:09Anthony Pompliano?

  What is like your exit point from this view of either level of adoption timeline? Like, how do you think about, okay, you know, I believe this is gonna happen. At what point would you change your mind if it doesn't?

• 57:20Speaker 02

  So I'm gonna use the Micron example.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Last year, the, over the year, the reason I made so much money in Micron?

• 57:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Flex.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Is because of inference. I was betting on what is basically agents. We didn't have, we had to get the IQ up to 150 before the agents would kick in. That's why I'm saying, if you look at the Leopold, that he laid it all out. The one thing I know about the singularity is it's a math problem. And I know this is gonna sound strange to people, but it's a math problem. It really is like, it's just a, you're compounding at a certain rate. That's why when they say, we're gonna eventually run into where it's not gonna compound anymore. Moore's law will end, well, we got past that and we went to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. It's a math problem. So that means that a year from now, agents will be proliferating. There's no way they won't be unless they destroy the internet and all humanity.

• 58:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you know why? I think that this is like a foregone conclusion. I had a realization this week that I am sad to admit, but it's true. I, I've come to terms with it.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 58:22Anthony Pompliano?

  The agents are smarter than me. The, like IQ wise, there are now agents that are.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  Just now at 150, you didn't think maybe at 110, 120?

• 58:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, 80 IQ, you know, there was, it wasn't a high bar they had to jump over. But like, it, it hit me, I'm like, wait a minute, the agent is actually smarter than me now. Right? And so, once you hit a 150, I mean, there's very few people in the world that is not smarter than.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 58:46Anthony Pompliano?

  There is, however, a 13 year old kid here in, I think, I believe he's in New York, who recently, um, he's at NYU and, uh, he got like a 1590 on the SAT at 10 years old or something, right? He's got like 160 IQ, so like, there, there's a couple out there, um, not me.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  They're not smarter than 150 IQ.

• 59:05Anthony Pompliano?

  So you, you look at that and you say, okay, wait a second. If we all are comfortable admitting to ourselves that they are smarter than us now, then it is just a context and memory problem. Right? It's just like, how much context do they have? And can they persistently hold that memory? And then, in a weird way of like, can you prompt it correctly? But like, the horsepower is there. And so, if that is all true, of course, they're gonna become pervasive everywhere because people for centuries have been looking for the highest IQ, most intelligence they could possibly find.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  So let's go back to your question for everyone listening. If Bitcoin is below 80,000, okay? I'll even say by it, by the end of October, there's a problem. And so, I'm gonna use the Micron example. The reason Micron went higher is because you go from very few people believing or seeing the economic impact from the thing. So inference was becoming something. And for those of you who are subscribers, if you go to the piece I wrote in May about inference, and I highlight the Sundar Pichai, how many trillions of tokens were used? And I go into every earnings report, like 20 of them, about the inference explosion.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  You have no excuses as an investor to not have bought Micron at 110. Now, I didn't see institutions jumping on board until October of last year. So we're talking about from May to October, the price is going up, it's above 200 and blah, blah, blah.

• 1:00:37Anthony Pompliano?

  It takes time to do research, investment committees.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  It takes time for people to see the fundamentals. So the reason I said October, I'm watching Zcash and Near because they represent the true, the people that are like, oh my God, the Agentic stuff is picking up every day. What you said about Tempo, Robinhood Chain, like, Robinhood Chain was mainly meme stuff. I don't care about meme activity, but you have meme activity before everyone else gets on board, before the agents start transacting. People don't trust the agents, they don't wanna go through. But the technology is happening and Instinct and Meta are a representation. Remember, the Meta situation, the most important thing to look at is back in June, what did Zuckerberg say? He said he's been disappointed in the progress in AI.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  If you go back and look, and I don't know if you remember it, he literally said at a town hall meeting inside the walls that got leaked, he was disappointed. Here we are now, three months later, they're releasing Muse, personal assistant. Maybe they're releasing it because Instinct is gathering so much team and Meta's stock was trading near 52 week lows. Now it's back above the 200 day moving average. I think the Agentic side is kicking into this and there's more than that happening. If I go look at all of the Agentic type trades, well, the Mag7 benefit from agents in a much bigger way. Salesforce.com benefits in agents. What else benefits from agents? Cyber stocks, like, this is a new index I'm putting together. It's like, if you believe agents are here, well, then cyber is worth more because they can disrupt anything.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  If you believe agents are here, then Salesforce actually does have usefulness at this point because the agents are here and people haven't moved off of Salesforce.com and that's not gonna happen for the Fortune 500 companies. So they should see an inflection in terms of getting revenues in the door. So for everything in the market, I'm already seeing the Agentic state play out. Bitcoin to me is a summation of the entire ecosystem and agents, if they're driving it, we should see the price go higher. When we get above 82,000, as I said before, there is so much volume that happened there. That's the point in time when I think people gave up the last time. When the fall happened after October 10th, everyone picked a point like, okay, we can buy it now, it's going back. Stocks went higher and what happened? Crypto fell lower again. It broke away from stocks and why was that?

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  As you and I talked about, South Korea didn't care about crypto anymore, they cared about AI. AI is not the same trade anymore. It's not as easy and the Agentic side isn't as good as the infrastructure trade. So Micron gave me the belief that if you're gonna get into it, you have to get into it. One, when it's very, very early, which is what it is in agents. Number two, once it starts breaking above key levels, it should not look back. We haven't done that yet in, in Bitcoin and the ecosystem. But the ecosystem 46 name basket I have is up big for the year and most of it's being driven by the AI agent side.

• 1:03:23Anthony Pompliano?

  I have good news for you.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  I love good news.

• 1:03:25Anthony Pompliano?

  I just looked at what you were talking, we don't have to wait till the end of October. Bitcoin is back over $80,000 right now.

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  Okay, so.

• 1:03:31Anthony Pompliano?

  So it's gonna stay, right?

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  What time is it, 10, 11 o'clock on?

• 1:03:34Anthony Pompliano?

  That took 27 minutes for your prediction to be right. All right, before we go, uh, this is a very big week for you. You are launching the crypto version of the research. Can you tell us what exactly are you launching? And then where can people go, subscribe, check it out, learn, uh, learn about it?

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so for those of you who watch the video, first of all, that I do.

• 1:03:56Anthony Pompliano?

  On Sunday morning.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  On Sunday morning. This is gonna be in the same form, okay? The reason I've kept everything the same is the feedback I've gotten from people, both very sophisticated macro people and then retail people is, I make it easy enough in terms of the, the approach and the usage of the slides to get people to consume the information. I believe that I educate people and they get more comfortable. I'm gonna do the exact same thing with crypto, which is something that even retail people in crypto, I don't think understand enough yet. How it all connects, what we talked about here today with agents, this is a very nuanced thing. I think outside of the people we mentioned, which are the people running that are actually quantitative tech people.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  I'm trying to turn this into everyday life, like a restaurant, okay, Instinct AI, you guys should go look at it. And more importantly, that will have a wallet attached to it where the maximum is a hundred dollars and you can't get into trouble if you have a hundred dollar, it has a maximum because it's programmable. You can't do more than this, so I want you to go order this, buy this, go to Uber, do this and then you refill it and you go through it, the same way you would like a Dunkin' Donuts card where maximum is there and you have to put more money in. Well, if during the week, you're having your assistant, hey, I'm not gonna be back home in time, go to DoorDash, give me some food, whatever I like, blah, blah, blah. And then you move on, it's your personal assistant and it's gonna have access to Amazon and all of those things. So for me, to show people the news that's happening each week, I mentioned Zcash, I mentioned Near.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  I'm sure 95 to 99% of people listening to this don't know what those two things are, especially the traditional finance world. So this is gonna be an education. It's gonna start with the first video saying, why now in crypto? This is to get people excited about why I'm so emphatic about this being the turnover point for AI. But then each week from that point, it's gonna go through the verticals. I have 10 verticals, so they can start to understand why tokenization is so important. We didn't even get into it, but if you ask me, what's more important than stable coins? Tokenizing things is the most important step we're taking in this entire crypto place.

• 1:06:00Anthony Pompliano?

  And, and the regulators now have just made a huge announcement, they're allowing this stuff to happen.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  For five years, they're exempt, I mean, five years. This is a big deal, that's why the Clarity Act doesn't matter. That's why people have to understand that this is going to happen because it's global. And by them exempting things for a period of time and allowing this to happen, tokenize, tokenizing everything over time unleashes so much dormant liquidity. So M2 guys, you've learned this old economic book. We have enough assets in this levered world that are sitting there doing nothing. And if you can release them and say, hey, I wanna borrow money in my business, I've got my house, it's the only thing I have in value. I don't have any cash, I don't wanna go to the bank and can borrow money. How about this? I give you a programmable token, you take a piece of my house, this is what it's valued at

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  and then I own it back the next day because I posted as collateral, we did something and because I'm only doing it for one day, everything happens instantaneously. So the friction in business really slows down, you buy a house. So I'm gonna try to educate people. I think it is the single most important thing from an investment standpoint. And if you've listened to me long enough and think that I have a different view than most people, I do believe your stocks that are underperforming this year relative to earnings is going to be a major story. If you own bonds, they're unchanged over the last seven, eight years. You've gotten nothing from bonds. If you're stuck in private credit, you're gonna be going through pain getting your money back. This is the fiat system getting old and dying. That's what it is. Entrepreneurs are gonna win, but there's no way to invest in the non-public stocks other than crypto.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  Crypto is a representation of the entrepreneurs of the future, using the financial guardrails because they're gonna be all AI native and what are we saying? Agents are gonna use the guardrails. This system is being built through a backdoor and I'm gonna try to make sure people understand it.

• 1:07:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Where can we send people?

• 1:07:48Speaker 02

  They can always go to viscer-labs.com and it'll send you back. But ai.22vresearch.com, you can go see it there. Everything will be up on the site. I'm gonna release a video and a paper this week. The paper will be on Ghost Rails. It will bring Marc Andreessen in, who told us all in 2014 that this moment was coming. We think it was Bitcoin, but in the paper, he says Bitcoin, but what has happened is the ecosystem has grown into more than Bitcoin. It has grown into this whole thing of micro payments and everything else. That's why you need to read it and that's why you go through.

• 1:08:19Anthony Pompliano?

  I played devil's advocate with you today, but you wanna know how we would agree?

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  How?

• 1:08:25Anthony Pompliano?

  I am pretty sure that Sylvia in the public markets is the only publicly traded company that is merging AI and Bitcoin together. So I completely agree with everything you're saying. It's been fun to antagonize you and get you to explain it. See you guys next time.