#1507 Mike Novogratz | Did Trump Make Bitcoin Crash?

Mike Novogratz is the Founder & CEO of Galaxy Digital. This conversation was recorded at Bitcoin Investor Week in New York. In this conversation we discuss the current bitcoin narrative, sovereign wealth funds interest in bitcoin, what the future of crypto looks like, Trump’s impact on bitcoin, Galaxy, and why Wall Street is embracing bitcoin.=======================Bitwise is one of the largest and fastest-growing crypto asset managers. As of December 31, 2021, the company managed over $1.3 billion across an expanding suite of investment solutions, which include the world's largest crypto index fund and other innovative products spanning Bitcoin, Ethereum, DeFi, and crypto equities. Whether you’re an individual, advisor, or institution, Bitwise provides intelligent access to crypto with your unique circumstances in mind. Visit www.bitwiseinvestments.com to learn more. Certain of the Bitwise investment products may be subject to the extreme risks associated with investing in crypto assets. Visit www.bitwiseinvestments.com/disclosures/ to learn more.=======================The future is being built today and the future of currency isn’t dollars, euros, pounds, or yen, it’s crypto. And Gemini thinks that’s a great thing. Because a future where money is decentralized, inclusive, and globally accessible, that’s a future that we are anxious to be a part of. Go where dollars won’t. With Gemini. =======================Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/=======================View 10k+ open startup jobs:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 0:54Anthony Pompliano?

  It's no secret that Bitcoin ETFs have taken Wall Street by storm. With over $35 billion in assets in just one year, it's become the most successful ETF launch in history. My partner Bitwise is the first and only Bitcoin ETF provider to openly publish its Bitcoin wallet addresses, allowing anyone to verify the fund's holdings. I believe this level of transparency is exactly the kind of innovation that only crypto makes possible. Bitwise is also the only ETF issuer that is a crypto specialist asset manager, meaning their team solely focuses on Bitcoin and they have the research, education, and support to help investors navigate the space with confidence. All of that is great, but what I love most about Bitwise is probably their commitment to developers. Bitwise donates 10% of their ETF's profits to Bitcoin open source developers.

• 1:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoin developers are the unsung heroes, working tirelessly to maintain, improve, and innovate the blockchain. Their efforts ensure that Bitcoin remains true to its promise as a decentralized system that is built to last. Go to bitwisePomp.com to learn more about their ETF and other services. Once again, that's bitwisePomp.com. Bitwise, P-O-M-P dot com. As always, remember investing is risky and carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before you invest. Today's episode is brought to you by Gemini. The future is being built today and the future of currency isn't dollars, euros, pounds or yen. It's crypto and Gemini thinks that's a great thing because of future where money is decentralized, inclusive and globally accessible.

• 2:25Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a future that we are anxious to be a part of. Gemini teamed up with futurists, technologists and designers like award winning artist Matt Griffin, known for his illustrations for Dune, to craft a vision of the future with crypto at its core. The creative theme, "Go Where Dollars Won't," emphasizes exploration, growth and the crypto market's limitless potential. Whether it's going on that Martian safari to capture an unforgettable photo of a herd of woolly mammoths grazing the red planet, or using Bitcoin to pay for your Lyft pass to go strata skiing down the mountain peak of a breathtaking comet. Whatever adventures we'll be living, one thing is for sure. In a future this fantastic, the limits of traditional currencies simply cannot keep up. Financial innovation will usher in this new frontier and so go where dollars won't with

• 3:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Gemini. Go check them out at gemini.com/go-were-dollars-won't. Again, go check it out at gemini.com/go-were-dollars-won't. All right. Before you were a Bitcoiner, you were a currency trader, macro, we'll call you analyst trader, whatever you want to have you think, you just think about macro markets all the time. What the hell is going on?

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, Bitcoin is a part of a macro market, right? That's why I got into it and you know, crypto in general is all about narrative, right? It's not the technology. Technology is pretty cool, but we could fork the Bitcoin blockchain and call it the Novo chain and it probably wouldn't have a lot of value. And so it's not the technology, it's the social construct. That social construct, I think it has value, you think it has value, comes from narrative, right? The narrative has been governments can't stop spending money, they're going to depreciate their currencies incessantly. It's happened from time immemorial. Therefore, we need a hard asset like gold and this is gold for a digital age. So like that's Bitcoin's narrative. It should stay its narrative.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  It's a great narrative and you know, listen, we've just gone from 107 to 77.9 painfully last night at like two in the morning. And so it feels kind of shitty, but I would tell you the one thing I've learned in whatever the 15 years I've been. Following this stuff for, not 15 years, I'm cheating there. Uh, yeah, 13. No, 11. 11 years. 12. Um, is that? Seven. There was a- 19. There was a great song by Chumbawamba. I don't know if you know it. "I get knocked down, but I get up again. Ain't no one's gonna hold me down. I get knocked down." "Oh Danny, boy." That song? Yes.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  The Bitcoin community takes its pain. And what gives it its resilience are guys like Jack Mollers and Wenzes Casares and all of the- and now Larry Fink. All of these orange pillars, uh, who are out there convincing people that this social construct, that hey, you should take some of your hard-earned wealth and store it in this community. You have to trust in this community of weirdos. Um, but it's, you don't have to, it, the community gives its value. The blockchain itself gives it its constitution, right? Satoshi's white paper gives it its constitution. And so you know what you're betting on. Like, there's something really magical about that.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Um, why does Bitcoin dominance keep growing? It's because it's got the strongest, oldest, and most diverse community. Um, why is it hard for new coins to get any momentum? Because it's really hard to create community. It's really hard to create energy that brings everyone in. Right? We were investors and we still are investors in Celestia. And I said, "Oh my God, Celestia is gonna be the best blockchain. It's a modular blockchain and it starts off with a hype." But it's really hard, like if I walk down the street and grab 10 people, zero would know what Celestia is. But eight would know what Bitcoin is. And four would really understand it.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Uh, and so how does, how do these other ecosystems get mine's share? It's hard. It's kind of weird that the top four coins are the first four coins that were launched. They got their communities earlier and they've been working. I was talking to Brad Gardinghouse, he was like, "I don't even know where half this XRP army comes from." But they are unbelievably passionate. And lots of crypto people will make all these, you know, derogatory statements about why XRP is not as good as Bitcoin. Those people don't care. They're storing their wealth in that narrative.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  And so, I do think it's the way I've always looked at this space. I think we're in an interesting macro. I'll go to your question, that was a long friggin' answer. I'm already halfway through my time. One question. Listen, what's happening now? You're doing great. Well, if you think about what happened, like, Donald Trump becomes the president, he's gonna be a Bitcoin president, he's got a cabinet of Bitcoiners, he makes pro-crypto comments, rumors of the Saudis and Abu Dhabi buying, now it's, you know, they've publicly said yes. So the Mideast is buying, everything is good. Like, how much better could it get?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  I was at the inauguration, there was a crypto ball. And not only was there a crypto ball, it was the party to be at. Everyone in DC wanted to go and went to the crypto ball. Like, market tops often come from that kind of exuberance, right? That's what creates a market top. Then there's often a symbolic gesture, right? AOL buys Time Warner, top of the NASDAQ in March of 2020, right? This new internet company buying one of the biggest media companies on earth. It seemed insane, it was insane. But that, what do we have? We had Trump coin launched and instantly it went to $60 billion of value. That's what market tops look like.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  They often come with champagne, fireworks, and an orgasm. And after all that, you fall asleep. And all the energy leaves the market. And so, we've had a painful correction in crypto, for a bunch of reasons. There's political uncertainty, it's hard to keep up with Donald Trump, I don't know if it's... If it's planned or not planned, but it's happening. And so the markets can't deal with tariffs, no tariffs, up, down, sideways. And so you're seeing a deleveraging and Bitcoin's still a risk asset. Crypto's a risk asset, so that's washing it out.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  You have this idea that we might miraculously cut government spending. I'll believe it when I see it. I will pray for it, but I'll believe it when I see it. Because you need to both cut government spending and raise taxes. And we seem to go and do the other thing. Me and him have a thousand push-up bet that he can balance the budget in these four years, in one year. The last president to do that was the great Bill Clinton. And I don't think Donald Trump will come close. I'd actually give you 2%.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  I just think, and it's not all their fault. We have a structural problem. And so, but if you start believing, and listen, I think the Secretary of Treasury Scott Bassett is as good as a man that you could have in that spot. He's a macro guy. He understands the plumbing. Like, we are all blessed that he's our Secretary of Treasury. I pray he lasts his four years. Even with that, it's gonna be brutally hard. If he does his job and we take debt from GDP, debt to GDP from 130 back towards 100. If Anthony's right and I'm doing a thousand push-ups on video. There could be AI involved.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  If all that happens, Bitcoin's gonna be lower, not higher. Right? If we really become the store of value in the dollar again, if we regain faith that this country can balance its checkbook.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  You know, the Bitcoin narrative is a lot less important. And so, same thing with gold, right? Gold prices won't go from 3,000 to 10,000 if we have a balanced budget. They'll be back at 2,000. And so, there's a macro piece to this. Right now, you know, and then I'll stop. This was the unwinding of a bubble.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  The Trump coin was important in that people woke up and said, wait, is there infinite supply in this shit? If he can create one, and Maloney creates it, everyone can create one, and Kanye is gonna create one, and every one of these, these, uh, protocols, wanna sell discounted tokens, and all of a sudden you see a wave of supply. And, yes, there's new demand, but there's not that much new demand. Matter of fact, I gotta give a shout out to Larry Fink, because it felt like we were all drowning this morning, and Larry threw a, threw a, uh...

• 11:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Life raft?

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Life raft, by BlackRock announcing they're gonna put 1.5% in portfolios. Uh, that's a huge deal. Uh, and so I do think, you know, again, we're a resilient crowd. Uh, I think that the broad direction's heading in, in the right, the right way. But if there's one thing to learn, and we should all just learn it painfully, this is not a straight line.

• 12:18Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't know how much you can, uh, talk about it, but, um, you've been very involved in a number of conversations, uh, both here in the United States of people who became orange-pilled, but probably more importantly, um, there's a lot of conversations that have been happening in the Middle East, and I think that people, somehow, the Middle Eastern investors, the sovereign wealth funds, they have become the pinnacle of what people think kinda smart money or institutional money is doing. You see that when Abu Dhabi Sovereign Wealth Fund comes out and says, "Hey, they own the ETF," there's an immense, you know, kind of, uh, slew of headlines, and people just immediately, "Oh, the sovereign wealth funds are here." What are a lot of those conversations like, and can you share any kind of insights of how some of these countries are thinking about stuff?

• 12:59Speaker 02

  I think it was really, really simple. Um, as much as I'd like to think it was my, you know, flowery articulation of why Bitcoin was important, it wasn't. It was the moment Donald Trump stood on stage in Nashville and say, "We are gonna be a Bitcoin country, we're gonna be a crypto country," it flipped in their minds. And they were like, "If the US is gonna do, if Bitcoin's important to the United States, it's important to us." That's actually a direct quote from the head of the largest sovereign wealth fund in the Mid East. Uh, and sure enough, good to his word, they bought $500 million, and, and I think...

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Are we going to get a strategic reserve or a stockpile or a sovereign wealth fund that has crypto in it? I don't know. I know there's a lot of people in DC that want it for self-interested reasons and maybe from strategic reasons. I don't think there'll be a strategic reserve, right? The dollar is backed up by the fiercest Army, Navy, Air Force in the history of this planet. That's what gives the dollar its value. And to say, "Well, we need something else too," actually diminishes that story. Remember, the currency is a narrative, just like Bitcoin is a narrative. But I don't think it's impossible for our government to say, "We think this is important. We're going to have a strategic stockpile."

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Words matter, and that's getting kicked around. Why is that important? Again, we put something in our sovereign wealth fund, everyone else does too. And so I think that process could really be helpful. It's not essential, but the networking, right, of these crypto ecosystems just takes time, right? And so, what do you mean, 300 million people that probably have bought or sold a Bitcoin at one point of their life and there are 8.5 billion people on the planet?

• 14:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's talk about Galaxy. You've been working on this now for quite a while. I know that you would like to come to the United States. I also know that you, at times, have been very frustrated that the stock was trading at or below book value. But you all have significantly expanded, I think, not just your ambition, but also your operations. So talk a little bit how you think about the business today and kind of how it is positioned, given the backdrop of both macro and the political sea change.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  The door slammed shut right after Coinbase got public and we were stuck on the other side and had been literally for four years back and forth with the SEC. That's all changed and I think you will see a whole bunch of crypto companies file, you know, after, you know, in April. Everyone's got to get their year-end earnings done and that process. And I think the SEC will approve most and so you're going to see a wrath of IPOs probably starting in June. And hopefully we will be leading that pack. So that's exciting. Why is it a big deal? All the liquidity in the world's with the NASDAQ.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Like, we have a stock that trades in Canada and companies half our size would trade 100 to 150 times more volume per day. And so I just sat there angry, or jealous I should say, watching these companies tap the capital markets and be able to use that currency for acquisitions or for strategic purposes, where we've funded our company mostly through trading profits and then a couple converts.

• 16:42Anthony Pompliano?

  You guys are doing mining, a number of other different things. Talk about kind of the different business lines.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, so our company is changing pretty quickly. We still have a big institutional sales and trading business, derivatives, lending, spot, OTC trading. That's our biggest and kind of most stable business. We got into staking 18 months ago. We're the second biggest validator in Solana. We have a really fast-growing staking business. That works especially if you can then write derivatives on, you know, when we put the whole piece together, market making as a service, staking, derivatives, trading, and so that piece is really working. We have an investment banking business, a growing asset management business.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Our Bitcoin mining business is morphing and, you know, stay tuned, but we are barreling down the path and this is public. We had a non-binding term sheet signed and hopefully, knock on wood, that becomes a binding term sheet very soon, to be a data center provider for AI. And the beauty of that is, how does that work for those of you who aren't following it? You are lucky enough, smart enough, to own power. The big six, you know, AI, you know, OpenAI, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Meta, they need power and they need it now, and they need it next year and the following

• 18:17Speaker 02

  year. By 2033, there's lots of projects that the country's gonna have a lot of power, but there's not a lot of power now. And so some of these crypto miners, including ourselves, have power now. And you enter a long-term lease, 20-year lease, you take that lease, you get the financing from traditional banks, you then build out a data center at about $13 million a megawatt. And so if it's an 800-megawatt data center, you can do the math, right? It's over 10 billion a capex. And in the long run, you end up having a triple-net lease, real estate asset that cash flows. And so why is that important to a company like Galaxy?

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Well, it's just a great business to start. But having lived in a business where, you know, your staking revenue, if you were a Solana validator, just got cut in half from the inauguration, you know? All of our fees, fee income broadly is tied to the underlying asset. And so everyone in this room who runs a business is so much happier Bitcoin at 100 than Bitcoin at 60, or Bitcoin at 200, or Solana at, you know, 200 versus 120. And so that volatility gets tough to live with, right? Hire them, fire them, you know? How do you, how do you business plan?

• 19:43Speaker 02

  And so having a much more stable real estate business, you know, cash flow business, I think, is a perfect yin and yang.

• 19:53Anthony Pompliano?

  When we look at Bitcoin and its kind of infiltration into Wall Street, the obvious area was the ETFs. We got that approved. Man, does Wall Street like to get creative. Man, do they like to create financial products? What are the things that you think will come to Bitcoin but are not yet here? Are there principal protected notes?

• 20:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's the next thing you're gonna see. As the derivative market gets deeper, you're gonna see people launching through these private bank principal protected notes. I think there's already a principal protected ETF. That just makes it easier. Give up half the upside and get some downside protection. What's gonna take a while is for Wall Street and the broader population to move beyond Bitcoin. You have a whole world of what we call crypto people or degens that if I talk about wormhole or pith, they know what I'm talking about. But again, I don't need to ask 10 people on the streets of New York.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  I could ask 1,000 and no one would know what wormhole or pith is. And so how we go from Bitcoin to Solana and Ethereum and down for broad distribution is gonna be very difficult.

• 21:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think those other assets are accretive to Bitcoin? Because as the pie grows, more capital will make its way to Bitcoin because the pie is growing? Or do you think that it's a zero-sum game for the capital coming into the market?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Kind of halfway between those. I think you can break crypto into four buckets. There's digital gold. Bitcoin stole that space. It does a great job in that space. Every time people want to use Bitcoin for payments, I want to kick them in the gonads because I'm like, "Stop." "Don't mess with my narrative. It's a good narrative. Don't confuse it." That's what gets people in. "We're not gonna buy shoes or Coca Colas with Bitcoin." You might use their rails, but probably not because they're not nearly as fast and easy as some of these new L2s. So that's one. Then there's stablecoins, which we think is a booming business. And you're gonna get stablecoin legislation probably in the next three months.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Then you're gonna see that really start to accelerate. So that's another business. Then there's real-world assets or the tokenization of stuff.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  A tremendous amount of money is being put into that. Every trade fire organization has got their own group thinking about we. Once they tokenize stocks, we can't not be part of it. To me, that's a plumbing operation. It's regulatory and financial market plumbing. It is going to happen. I think it's going to happen slowly and then quickly. But it hasn't happened yet. And then the fourth big bucket, which drew a ton of people into crypto, is this idea of decentralization, Web 3. Is it going to be built on Ethereum or Solana or some combination of these ecosystems with bridges, right? All these L1s and L2s are broadly Microsoft Excel databases that get shared.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  And how are we going to, in a world, build decentralized ecosystems on top of those things? And that's where crypto has been the most disappointing. While there's lots of great assets that people trade, and it's important they trade, right? I want to shout out to like all the, you know, Bybit and Binance and all the big Asian exchanges that create the liquidity for these tokens to trade on. But they've really created the infrastructure for a casino. And there's unbelievable amounts of gambling that goes on, right? From sports betting to betting on crypto to meme coins to stocks. Like, we have a gambling culture.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  And so all those tokens go up and they go down and they get talked about and their stories get talked about. But there's not a whole lot of utility from them yet. And I think in the next few years, we need to see some utility. We need to, when I look at this phone that's ringing. That happened last year. Yeah. I gotta turn this off. Two for two. I need to be able to say, hey, there's a zero knowledge proof driver's license. Or there's something I'm using in a decentralized world. I've got decentralized tickets. I've got decentralized something. Right now, none of us use Web 3, unless we were like NFT people or.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  And so I think for Ethereum and all these other things to really accelerate.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Utility has to be part of their narrative. And it's always been the story. It's, we've got to start seeing some wins.

• 24:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Is Trump good or bad for Bitcoin? In the sense that he says a lot of pro Bitcoin comments. They launched Trump coin. Then there's talk of she's a Bitcoin reserve.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  It didn't happen on day one. The Trump administration is categorically good for the crypto industry. Categorically. And sometimes you got to take the good with the bad. I was at that, the vice president's ball and the crypto ball first. So you saw lots of the crypto illuminati, the business leaders. And I mean, it was the turd in the punch bowl as soon as that thing got launched. Everyone looked at themselves and was like, oh, that just didn't happen. You know, the, the group collectively and many people in this room have worked so hard over the last eight years to finally get across the finish line.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  And that made it feel a little foolish. And listen, we have a, you know, I don't get to determine who participates in this industry, nor do you, right? We have a very eclectic group of people in this industry. And sometimes to more conservative institutional people, it all looks weird, right? People screaming and, now listen, now we have the head of Doge with the chainsaw. So maybe that's going to get normalized. But, you know, we, we're a hard, we're a hard act to often sell to people.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  And Trump coin and Melania coin and going to 60 billion and then, you know, Argentina being rugged and even the word rugged, all of that stuff.

• 26:33Anthony Pompliano?

  What does resonate? When, I mean, you talk to these people all day, right? So like, what is the talk track right now that resonates? When all of the other stuff is going on? When even the, you know, very hardcore kind of crypto stuff is, is happening? What is the narrative or the talking points that you found have been most effective with Washington?

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Listen, with Washington was, and I made a little...

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Pithe quote, "There are more people that own crypto than own dogs." And the Democratic Party seemed to be the party that hated dogs. Like, it's just stupid politics. People care about crypto. So damn it, figure it out and learn it. The Republicans got engaged in crypto not because they loved crypto, because they realized there's a real politic to this thing. There are a lot of single-issue voters. Young people care about this. Listen, what young people have done is creating a new input to investing. Like, we never had this idea of community as one of the inputs to valuation, right? We now have it, and I don't know if it will last. I think it will, because there's a lot of young people.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Old people are getting older and they're leaving the planet. Young people have more young people, right? And so, but like, we saw it with Tesla for a while, right? Tesla was like the first meme stock. And then you had GameStop and a few others. But that's all a crypto. It's, "I'm willing to put my money into this community because I want to." Don't tell me what the valuation is. Don't, "Ah, shut the hell..." Like, so there's a momentum piece to that, but there's something about community. It's why, I hate to use the word tattoos, because it's been a thorn in my side. But why there's so many people with crypto tattoos and crypto passion and Bitcoin T-shirts.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  I mean, think about what a great company Oracle is. Have you ever seen anyone with an Oracle or a Sun Microsystems T-shirt? Or a tattoo? "Hey, I got an Oracle tattoo." Right? Think of your favorite stocks. Have you ever even thought about, like, going to a, you know, an Apple meetup? Well, you go to the Apple Store to buy cool products, but you don't meet a bunch of friends at a bar to talk Apple. And so, there's something that's very powerful about community. In a world where people are longing for a community, that might be a permanent addition to investing. It's too early to tell, but it certainly might be.

• 29:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Last question. You gonna leave the tattoo or you gonna get it covered up?

• 29:09Speaker 02

  You know, the one thing in life, you can't regret mistakes and things you do in life. And so...

• 29:17Speaker 02

  No, I won't cover it up.

• 29:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Mike Novogratz, everybody.