#1459 Pascal Gauthier | Can Quantum Computers Steal Your Bitcoin?!

Pascal Gauthier is the CEO at Ledger. In this conversation we discuss, what products they have launched recently, regulatory environment, quantum computing, artificial intelligence, and what he is excited about in 2025. ======================= The Pomp Podcast is powered by BetOnline.ag, the premier crypto-friendly place to gamble on politics and sports, casino, poker and horse racing. BetOnline.ag gives you the ability to use Bitcoin and more than a dozen altcoins to make deposits and withdraw your winnings. There are no crypto transaction fees, and processing is instantaneous and secure. Visit https://promotions.betonline.ag/pomp and use PROMO CODE: POMP100 to receive a 100% matching bonus on any crypto deposit. BetOnline.ag is available in nearly every country around the world, making it the top global gaming destination for crypto users. ======================= Polkadot is a scalable, secure, and decentralized blockchain technology aimed at creating Web3. Created by Gavin Wood, co-founder of Ethereum, Polkadot empowers users to build decentralized applications with ease. Backed by industry leaders, making it a preferred choice for big names, Polkadot stands out as a leading choice for investors seeking a reliable, future-proof solution in the growing world of Web3 technology. Learn more at https://polkadot.com/. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone. This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. What's going on guys? Today I've got an awesome episode with Pascal Gauthier. He is the CEO of Ledger. They are the most trusted brand when it comes to crypto security. In this conversation, we talk about what products they've launched recently, how the regulatory environment has changed, what's going on with quantum computing, and whether that is

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  actually going to break Bitcoin, how we should be thinking about artificial intelligence, both in the hands of the good guys and the bad guys, and then we even get into what he's excited about in 2025. Tons of people have been asking me, will quantum computing actually be a problem for Bitcoin? And Pascal is one of the leading security experts in the industry. He's got a whole company working to prevent anything from happening to your Bitcoin or crypto assets, and he's here to answer all of our questions. I hope you enjoy my latest conversation with Pascal Guthier.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:34Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Polkadot. Polkadot offers secure, scalable, and decentralized blockchain technology that perfectly aligns with the needs of innovative projects. It was developed by Gavin Wood, one of the co-founders of Ethereum and the creator of Solidity. Polkadot aims to build an internet where users have full control over their data and their applications. Polkadot offers tons of unique features, a shared security model, along with the new auction model and significant implementations like ASIC banking. Given these characteristics, it's easy to understand why Polkadot is gaining more and more traction in the cryptocurrency world. Some people even are talking about it as the AWS of Web3. Now, companies such as Mythical Games, Astro Network, and over 50 other independent blockchains

• 3:02Anthony Pompliano?

  with hundreds of applications already leverage Polkadot's technology to power their platforms. If you're looking for a reliable, scalable, and cutting-edge solution, Polkadot seems to be the top choice for industry players. Go check them out today at polkadot.com. All right, Pascal, I thought a great place to start the conversation is you guys are the leading self-custody provider. You guys have amazing hardware. You've been doing this a long time. There's tons of people that are worried about quantum computing. They saw the Google Willow announcement. They think that quantum is going to come. Their Bitcoin may be at risk. Is this something to worry about? Or should everyone take a deep breath and calm down?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Everyone should take a deep breath and calm down. What Google demonstrated is cool and is going into is a step towards quantum computing and that direction. But it's not something that's going to break anything anytime soon, certainly not Bitcoin, certainly not Ledger. And this idea that suddenly quantum computing is going to happen one day, on Monday, and suddenly that week it will break everything is a fallacy. When you build attack, you also build defense at the same time.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  And quantum computing has a long, long, long, long way to be able to do the things that people dream.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Quantum computing of doing, especially when it's about breaking cryptography and, you know, very strong cryptography. And so the short answer is like, no, nothing is happening right now. Charles Guimere, our CTO, his handle on Twitter is at P3B7 underscore,

• 4:51Speaker 02

  wrote like the best thread on the matter. Charles is a hacker, like he's a guy who built the dungeon here at Ledger. And he's one of the top hackers in the world. And, you know, I appointed him CEO, actually a CTO, CEO is me, still me, but CTO of the company back in 2019 when I took over. And the reason why is because I thought like, only a hacker can can know what the ledger technical stack can be. And it's funny when you speak to hackers like about those kind of things, like, you know, they're, it's not like on X.com, you know, like, it's almost the answers are almost boring, like, you know, and this is why, like, he only had like 117 likes on his thread, which is probably the best thread on quantum computing that you can find right now.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  And because the answer is, calm down, there is nothing to see. When you say on X.com, like, oh, my God, like, you know, it's happening, you know, people are like, oh, my God, like, like, like, but it's not happening. And by the way, like, if it was happening like that, like, you know, we have, we have bigger problems, you know, nuclear war, global nuclear war would be problem number one, not the fact that quantum computing can hack your ledger. And so, no, it's not, it's not happening, but, but it's good, like, you know, and, and those kind of things are important to, to build the future. But like I said, the, you know, build defense and offense are being built at the same time. So we at Ledger keep an eye on all these things. We have the dungeon, which is not just an attack lab, but it's also a research lab. And so we have,

• 6:15Speaker 02

  you know, an elite team working on these matters. And when it happens, you know, Ledger will have an answer and similar to a bunch of other companies.

• 6:24Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the interesting things is, as people have asked me about quantum computing over the years, there's two things I always said, and I'd love for you to either agree or disagree. The first is that there is no quantum computer yet, but if there is one that ends up getting created, there's a heck of a lot of things that you probably would want to hack or kind of, you know, get into before you did Bitcoin, because if you hack Bitcoin and take all the Bitcoin, Bitcoin loses its value. Like, the whole point is that it's never been hacked before. Do you agree with that? Or do you look at it differently?

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. I agree that the CIA, so if you look online CIA as a report on quantum computing, it pretty much says everything that you need to know right now in the state of quantum computing and what it can or cannot do, but like, you know, even what you're describing is not exactly the way it would happen. Like, you know, you would never be in a position where suddenly you have a computer that is so great that you can hack, that you can choose what to hack on the planet. Like, you know, every defense will be upgraded. And that's the scenario. So the day it happens, you have offense, defense. You still have weak spots somewhere. So, you know, you'll be able to hack what has not been upgraded or what is still weak, et cetera, et cetera. But again, you know, read the thread from Charles Guimet and you understand this better. Like, you know, it's, you know, for quantum

• 7:36Speaker 02

  computing to work the way that you say it would work, it would require like years, like, you know, five, 10, 15, 20. Like, nobody really knows. Like, because there is something like completely exponential in terms of quantum computing. Like, whatever you do now is nice, but you need like to do this 250 times more, you know, and that's the end. Every time that you need to increase, it's all the much harder. And so we're very far from having something that, that, you know, makes people freak out. So, sorry to disappoint, but no, it's not happening. And Ledger is safe and Bitcoin is safe.

• 8:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Amazing to hear. One of the things that has always been kind of a paradox to me is that when you think of Bitcoin, when you think of encryption, when you think of Ledger, these are very kind of technical products. They're very secure. They use kind of cutting edge technology. But when you hear about a lot of stolen Bitcoin or people losing their Bitcoin, it's usually social engineering, right? It's kind of like the least technical thing that you could actually do is what people use. And so talk about, you know, building a company where security is your business, right? You know, kind of trust and privacy and security. But at the end of the day, you still have users. And so you've got to kind of balance how to handle this.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  That's correct. You know, hacking is like sort of offense versus defense. And so it depends which range you steal, but also there is an opportunity cost, right? So if you're trying to steal $1, I mean, you cannot put like a lot of effort and a lot of money into doing the hacking, right? Like, you know, you cannot spend $100 to hack $1. So. Uh, if you spend a hundred dollar to hack one million dollar, then okay, that's a, that's a good return, right? So, uh, so you don't go hack Ledger because that's very expensive. What you do is social engineering because, you know, to send an email to someone and hope that they will return the 24 words. You know, that's, uh, less costly, uh, and so therefore the return investment is probably greater.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  And so that's what we've seen in the past 10 years, right? Social engineering and phishing emails, et cetera. That's, that's what, uh, hackers do. Um, and you know, for that Ledger, we, we launched our, uh, service, uh, Ledger Recover to, to start to, to, to take the 24 words out of the equation, uh, because the, uh, the weak point, like you say, is the user himself and the user sharing the 24 words. We have documented everyone Ledger, please do not share your 24 words, that, that, that this thing that you shouldn't do. Uh, and I was on stage with someone the other day, it was like, well, you know, this, uh, this space doesn't need education anymore, like people know everything. I'm like, no, no, no, people don't know everything and of course we need a lot of vacation. To the point where don't share your 24 words, but also explain what it means, like, you know,

• 10:24Speaker 02

  never enter your 24 words on a computer, never enter your 24 words, uh, on a phone. Uh, and you don't, people don't understand, like I spoke, I spoke to OGs the other day, like, you know, I'm in the group, Alpha Group, and, and people still talk about cold storage and you're like, well, cold storage is okay because, you know, I keep my stuff, you know, on a piece of paper, da, da, da, da. I'm like, yeah, so what do you do when you need to do a transaction? It's like, well, you know, it's easy, I go on a computer and then I put my 24 words on a computer. Okay, but this is where you get hacked, so. Cold storage doesn't work and, and, and what works is, you know, sort of Ledger in terms of security because your 24 words are never exposed, uh, by design and you can connect your Ledger online, offline, doesn't matter. Like, you know, and this cold storage thing is a real fantasy.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Um, but this is it, then you, as a user, you should never enter your, your, your words in the phone or computer and/or nor, nor share these with, with anyone, but you still have them. So with Ledger Recover, we tried to remove them out of the equation. It's a very secure way of doing it. We have, you know, tens of thousands of users now that are using it. So it's a really good product, it's a really good service. It's never been like this, open source, everybody can check what it does. And, you know, that's part of the answer and these answers need to come like, you know, you need to be able to onboard easier on self custody. You need to remove all the friction. And so typically, you know, storing those 24 words on a piece of paper somewhere, that has always been something where people have doubts.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  And also, if you know that your 24 words on Ledger recover and you can recover them electronically on your device, et cetera, then, you know, the need of inputting the 24 words is sort of removed. And so therefore, this urge that you should share them, you know, is somewhat removed. That's one of the examples of like how you can protect users again themselves. But you're right that, you know, social engineering is, is most of the hacks that are happening right now. Except that's now it has changed. And so 24 is a very pivotal year in so many ways. But we've seen, it would be interesting for you to have a conversation with Charles and the dungeon one day, but it seems that the big wolves now are out there. And so for a long time, I was talking with the dungeon about like, you know, real hacking, like not just like the social engineering,

• 12:33Speaker 02

  but like, you know, complex hacking, like what you see in movies, right? And for a long time, there was not enough money to do this because complex hacking requires engineering, et cetera, and requires like a cost, right? But now it's happening. There have been several hacks in 24 where, you know, it was like, you know, these are like, you know, bad boys hacks, like, you know, real hackers, like doing real things. I spare you the details and, you know, you have to take my word for now, but and maybe we do an episode with Charles, but it's happening. And so the point that we're making at Ledger is, we were trying to make that point for the past 10 years and people were like, well, but you know, nothing is, nobody is too sophisticated.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Now people are starting to be sophisticated. So we believe that, you know, security and what we do at Ledger will be, you know, front and center in the 10 years to come, much more than it has been in 10 years that have passed. What hackers will do typically, they will deploy at scale on, you know, through the Play Store or the App Store, on your phone and computer apps with malware inside. And so as soon as you have a software wallet, or as soon as you flash your 24 words on the phone and computer, it will be sucked, it will be put in a database, and they will extract the private keys from you, just like that. And so, again, you know, people need to remember that neither phone or computers were designed to do security.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  You need to have a security device with a secure screen, because your phone and computer don't have a secure screen. So even everybody that says, "Well, you know, the private keys are not on phone and computer, but you still have an app running on your phone." You never know what you sign, and you know, blind signing is not good for this industry. Blind signing means that, you know, you cannot trust your phone and computer, and so you send the money somewhere, and you know, hopefully it goes where you send it, but you don't know, because behind the screen, there is the hacker that can take your money and then send it somewhere else. And so, hardware wallet with a big screen, where you can do clear signing, that's the only way to go in the future. And people sometimes don't believe me, but I say, "You should believe me." You know, we know what we're talking about, and it's not just to sell products.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  You know, we have a mission, we have a vision, like, you know, we're here to secure people, and we don't compromise at Ledger, we don't compromise on security. And so, a secure screen, hardware wallet, secure, that's the only way to actually do a transaction in crypto, when you're not taking a risk.

• 15:01Anthony Pompliano?

  When you mention a secure screen, what is that? Like, what could possibly happen behind there?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Well, so this is not a secure screen, in the sense that the screen is not controlled by a secure element, or the screen is not controlled by security, right? When you have a Ledger, and now, wait, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get the Ledger and I will show you.

• 15:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  So this is the stack. This is one of the newest ledger. It's a beautiful thing. It's been designed by Tony Fadell. He was the father of the iPod.

• 15:32Anthony Pompliano?

  A legend.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Right, legend. Okay, turn it on, tutu, wow, ledger. Okay, so what you see here is a secure screen, okay? Means the screen is controlled by the secure elements that is inside the device. Secure element is sort of what you have on your credit card, right? Like the chip and PIN stuff. And when you touch the screen, every touch is secured. Like so that because the screen is linked to the secure elements, it means that everything that you do is validated by the, in the security enclave.

• 16:06Anthony Pompliano?

  So somebody can't be kind of remotely controlling the device. And when you touch the screen and you think you're hitting one button, it's actually hitting a different button for you.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Correct. So in here, you might have a secure element or secure enclave, but because it's not connected to the screen, when you push the screen, it's going to send a message to the secure enclave. And the secure enclave is like, sure. So whatever is in the enclave is, let's say, secure. But because the enclave doesn't understand the message that is coming to it, you know, it will sign everything you send it to sign. Here, it will only sign what it knows is secure because it's controlling the screen and the, the, the.

• 16:46Anthony Pompliano?

  It's more like vertically integrated security for the entire device.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 16:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Very interesting.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  So it's all about, you know, screen buttons, etc. Every action is actually controlled within the secure environment. And so the secure environment controls everything, which is not true for a computer.

• 17:01Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the things that also is exploding in popularity is artificial intelligence. And I think a lot of people are rightfully so excited about all of the cost savings and efficiencies and things like that that can be gained by this. There's a lot of gen AI that obviously is becoming quite popular as well. But I immediately think this stuff probably can be used for nefarious purposes and may actually, as much as it will empower, you know, good actors to build cool products, I'm assuming the bad guys, they probably will also want to use these same technologies. Are you guys seeing anything there that's noteworthy?

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Not really, uh, but you know, you know, good guys, bad guys, technology is for everyone, right? Uh, and often bad guys, they need an edge. So, uh, when people say at the beginning, you know, Bitcoin is for criminals, this and that, like, it's not necessarily a bad sign. Like, it was never the case, but like, even if it was the case, I'd be like, well, the criminals kind of like have to use like the best technology that is out there to, to, to always be on the edge. So, you know, Pablo Escobar was using a satellite phone before everybody else was using a satellite phone. So, uh, it's not because, uh, satellite phones were designed for criminals. It's just that when you're a criminal in the jungle, like you, you need those kind of, uh, that kind of technology to stay under the radar and be able to make your phone calls,

• 18:17Speaker 02

  right? So, um, so yeah, I mean, technology is being used by, by, by everyone. And, um, right now, we're not seeing like a bunch of stuff that is done with AI to, that, that, that would be a problem for, for, for ledger. And, and again, you know, differences are being built as, uh, offense is being, uh, is being used. Uh, but what is certain is, um, cryptography, uh, will be an answer to AI, uh, in a sense that AI being, uh, digital abundance and cryptography being digital scarcity. This is the yin to the yang, right? Uh, and so, uh, what we have on the map is sort of, you know, ledger being, uh, not just the security of your cryptocurrency,

• 18:58Speaker 02

  but you know, security of everything that is, uh, important to you, uh, digitally, right? Like, so all your, all of your digital secrets. Uh, last year, we've launched, uh, you know, Paskey and, you know, a bunch of features where it's not just now about securing your cryptocurrency, but other things or secrets are important to you online, you know, Paskey being your access to your favorite websites. Um, and there is a long list of things that we will do, but you know, at some point you, you will need proof of humanity, right? Like, you know, are you human? Are you, you know, are you a person? You know, are you American? What is your age, et cetera? And you know, all this mixed with identity. Uh, and that's definitely on our roadmap for 25 and beyond. Um, and it's something that we'll need because, you know, with AI,

• 19:40Speaker 02

  with bots, et cetera, like, you know, God knows who's writing what, where. Uh, but, uh, if it's signed with your ledger, then, uh, we know it's, uh, you, uh, Pom or me, uh, Pascal. And that's happening. And so for us, it's not so much AI being a danger to Ledger right now, because it's not really. But it's more like, you know, what can Ledger do to, you know, be the answer to AI being a danger? And we're working on that. And that's super exciting going forward.

• 20:10Anthony Pompliano?

  What about regulation? And, you know, obviously, in the United States, it's probably one of the bigger markets for Bitcoin cryptocurrencies. There's a pretty abrasive regulatory environment. I think that it held back a lot of institutional adoption and also retail adoption. But with the new administration coming in with President Trump going to the White House, new SEC Chair, etc., it feels like maybe some of that abrasiveness is kind of slowly dissipating. What do you think that does for the industry in general? And is there any impact on Ledger?

• 20:38Speaker 02

  So first of all, I think the abrasive regulatory environment is in Europe. I think MICA and, in general, Europe rushing into regulation before the business even happens is terrible. And the result in Europe is, you know, we don't have any exchange that are moving like sort of any coins. And so, you know, for a zone with 500 million people and, you know, a lot of value captured, you have to wonder why. And so every champion of sort of MICA and other regulations saying that, well, this will be good for business. Well, now you have your answer. Like, it's terrible

• 21:19Speaker 02

  for business. And what you had in the US is an administration that waged war on cryptocurrency, but actually you had no regulation, right? Like, the regulation still doesn't exist in the US. And I hope that you stay low on regulation. If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it, right? So that's Ronald Reagan. So that's what we do in Europe, you know, we tax, we regulate, and then we subsidize once we have no business. Hopefully in the US you won't regulate too much and you will let the business ride and you know you trust your entrepreneurs to build good companies and not to you know

• 22:02Speaker 02

  steal from customers which is if you look at Coinbase is a great example of an amazing company that did extremely well in a toxic environment but doing what a good company and a good CEO should do you know Coinbase build a good business because if you want to survive a long time you have to build a good business you don't need regulation actually to build Coinbase you know as it seems and Coinbase has always been sort of gracious in offering help to regulators and you know offer ways to regulate the business that is both good for the society in general and good for business and so I think this is the way it should be done right like you know business in partnership with regulators

• 22:47Speaker 02

  and the executive power just to build an economy and you know have an economy thrive and so I think the way Europe did it is the reverse is like you know people regulating an industry that doesn't even exist with rules that are anti-business etc and we've done it over and over again with so many things I mean you know the GDPR is like probably one of the worst human inventions like you know nobody cares like you know the only thing it does is every time you open a website you have a pop-up which is super annoying and and voila and so it doesn't solve any problem because it's a lot of money it's really ridiculous and so yeah I think in the US like it's gonna be fantastic to watch

• 23:28Speaker 02

  what this new administration is gonna do in the next four years and you know when it comes to Bitcoin but other things you know you know Doge the Doge initiative with Vivek and Elon is gonna be interesting to watch to say the least and you know I think I'm very intrigued to see what impact it's gonna have on business and not just for the US but also like this kind of Renaissance movement for the world where you know finally we have less governmental control you know sort of more trust you know power given back to the people the freedom to be an entrepreneur and to develop a society and you know I

• 24:12Speaker 02

  I don't really like this world where every time you try to do something like you have to demonstrate that you're not a drug dealer, that you're not a criminal, that you know, before you can actually do anything, I think I want, I prefer that I'm being given trust first and then if I do something wrong, then of course, like, you know, you have to pay for your crimes and it's that. But like, I think I would like to go back to society where, you know, entrepreneurship is not frowned upon like it was in the past four years in the US, you know?

• 24:41Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think of 2024, it seems like one of the big stories was the ETFs getting approved and that led to lots of inflows. Obviously, the price has done well. We get the halving. How does institutional participation change your focus at Ledger? You know, some of those institutions either legally are not allowed to or not yet ready for self custody. So they'll use kind of these custody providers. How do you guys think about being a custody provider for institutions? Are there some that are starting to do self custody? Do you think there's an education gap? Just talk a little bit about your relationship with these institutions.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Sure, but we are a technology player. So we provide technology to a bunch of custody providers. So today, if you're a financial institution, you're probably already using Ledger without knowing you use Ledger. Like, you don't do self custody with Ledger, but you use like Comainu or one of the various custodians that use Ledger technology and, you know, you have your money there. And so it's secured by Ledger technology. And so that's the play. And because we have this network of custodians all over the planet, we were able to build this new Ledger Enterprise TradLink feature, which is an off exchange

• 25:58Speaker 02

  trading feature that we've launched in 24 and that we are rolling out in 25. And it's a real success right now. And so. I think when it comes to financial institutions, again, past 10 years, like, you know, in my mind, nothing has happened. Everything is going to happen in the in the next 10 years. And again, 24 was very pivotal for this. 24 would be remembered as a very pivotal year for many things. You know, you have these graphs in 20 years where 24 will be, you know, the year. And and we have seen nothing yet. You know, the ETFs of 24 was certainly like a big move, like, you know, BlackRock touching Bitcoin and saying, this is my baby

• 26:42Speaker 02

  now. You know, that's, that's a big moment. And people underestimate how BlackRock, you know, changed the world when they decided to do that. You know, you know, this moment where the SEC SEC didn't want to approve those ETFs, but still had to do it. And, you know, fucked up, you know, their account, their X account was hacked when they were, I mean, only in crypto, right? And that was in January of 24. Crazy. So 24 was really a good year for this. And so, you know, we're ready, we're ready for the next 10 years, I think, with Ledger Enterprise. We have like the best technology platform to secure

• 27:23Speaker 02

  digital assets for financial institutions. And again, we sell to custodians, we sell to banks, and then custodians and banks deliver the service to to the end customer. And it's going very well right now.

• 27:36Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think of the ledger business, kind of moving forward, you guys have recently launched these products. You showed us the Stacks product, but it is consumer friendly. You worked with Tony Fadella, as you mentioned. Security is at the heart of these things, but it does feel like you are becoming much more of a consumer hardware company, similar to like an Apple, where there's a brand, there's a boldness, there's a user experience, it's at the center of these devices. You're smiling because I think that that's been a big focus for you guys. How does that evolve over time, right? You're still dealing with crypto, you're still dealing with encryption and security and like very technical things,

• 28:16Anthony Pompliano?

  but it feels like the device today is light years ahead of where it was, you know, even four or five years ago.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  100%. Look, you know, the graveyard of great technology innovations is full of French companies. You know, we are amazing at building great technology and we are, we come short when it comes to taking it to market and making it a product, right? And so, you know, Ledger and companies usually start with technology innovation, right? Like, it's very natural. If the founding team at Ledger didn't have this idea and it was a very technical idea, like, we wouldn't be here today. But at some point, if you want to reach the mass market and the consumer market, like, you have to think product first. To understand that, it's not very difficult. You open YouTube, you watch three videos of Steve Jobs, you know, you read one book of Steve Jobs and you understand the concept.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Even if the concept is quite actually easy to understand in a way, and it's really pragmatic, right? Like, you know, think product and technology after. It's very hard to do because you always have the tension between, you know, engineering and product, et cetera, et cetera. And people like their gadgets, right? Like, you know, people like, you know, I want this technology to be in, et cetera, et cetera. And so, for me, it was really, when I took over CEO in nineteen, it was really the moment where I was like, okay, so how do you go, how do we go into like a real product, a real experience? And Ledger was always designed to become this product, but the difference between, you know, wanting something and doing it is, you know, perfect execution, and that's very difficult. So for me, perfect execution is always about the people, like, you know,

• 29:53Speaker 02

  who knows how to do this? And so, Tony Fandelli is, you know, I've done my best, like, and I cannot find better than Tony to help me do this. So, I mean, if anybody knows anyone that is greater, like, please let me know. But, you know, I say this as a joke, but it was wonderful to work with Tony because he knows how to do this. And so, typically, watching him think about the product and the experience first, and then, from there, go to technology was very interesting. And, you know, there was friction at the beginning when we tried to pivot from technology model first to product model first. But in the end, it works super well. And of course, you know, the stacks was late to come to market because Tony being Tony, Apple being Apple, like, you know,

• 30:38Speaker 02

  you're not gonna do the easy thing, like, you take the, you do it hard. So, you, why are you gonna do this? You invent a screen that doesn't exist and that no one has never done, that even Inc. didn't think it was possible to do. You know, Inc. is the company that produces this, but... They thought it was not possible to do. We have actually a few videos and and things that Ian Rogers and Ariel, our VP Marketing, like did that that that showed the the story of how we built stacks and uh and the CEO of Ying says, yeah, you know, it was not possible to do. And when we did it, it was like, okay, so you did it. But uh so that was really the the the hard way to do it. Uh and we were late, etc. And you know, it's uh it's difficult for a small company when when your product is late.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  But I guess this is how you achieve greatness. And you know, looking back, I'm I'm glad we did it. Uh being late actually has no impact because no one did anything of significance uh in the meantime. And now we are redefining uh the space. And I'm glad that you made the comment that you make and we're seeing these comments on on X dot com and the feedback usually that we get on our from our customers, like, you know, as soon as you use this. And by the way, I can only use this now, you know, I love our nanos. Uh but this is a greater experience and we've designed it to be a greater experience. And you know, security has to be easy to use, you know, uh if you want to onboard the next generation of people on self custody.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Uh you know, it's digital property, like, you know, if you make digital property too hard to use, like you can't onboard like too many users. But this feels really like, uh, what up? So now, now, okay, now it works like now. Now I want to use it like I want to use it every day. Like, you know, sometimes I don't have a transaction to do. And I'm like, man, what could I do? And uh but it's a it's a thing of beauty. Uh but what we have to come is uh, you know, is amazing. Like now we have a we have a strong team. We have a we have an amazing roadmap for the next three years. Like, you know, I was watching it. It's the first time at Ledger that we have a three year roadmap that actually makes sense when we know what we're gonna do, etc. Uh but we came a long way, but it's difficult, you know, ten years. That's uh that was the ten years anniversary for Ledger this year. I remember the first three years were

• 32:44Speaker 02

  very difficult. Can you imagine like fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, like, you know, it's it was it was a different market. But now these products are selling like little pancakes or, you know, little breads. And the result that we're seeing in terms of usage are amazing too. Like, you know, it's not just that we sell more products. It's like, you know, people, once they have these products, they do more things. And what's happening is there is a world of connectivity that is coming now. That hasn't really happened in the past 10 years, but now, you know, this idea of having your private keys, why? You know, because you're a sovereign individual, okay? Because philosophically, you know, you want the money to be yours, sure.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  But you don't convince everyone with this. And by the way, you know, what is the product again? So the product is this, like now you have public blockchains that are, you know, protocols, just like the web is a protocol, but the web is not a product. Facebook is a product, and so you're going to use Facebook, and Facebook connects to the web protocol, right? And so DeFi is a product. Now to do DeFi, how do you do DeFi? Well, with these little babies, you know, clear signing, web three check, directly on this, connect to DeFi. Well, that's the product. And only if you do that, you can have a secure transaction, because on DeFi, if you don't secure the endpoints, then you're at risk of losing your money.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  And it's coming fast now, like, you know, the next five years will be, you know, applications that run on top of blockchain, even Bitcoin. Layer twos on Bitcoin are coming, so can you imagine, like, you know, so much liquidity, so much security? And you build an applicative layer on top, so that's the product. And so we designed this to be ready for people to be able to engage with the protocol, to connect to the web if you want. If you're on an exchange, you're on an intranet. If you want to come to the internet, you need to be on Ledger.

• 34:42Anthony Pompliano?

  What is the thing you're looking forward to most in 2025?

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Well, that, actually, you know, at Ledger, we have an investment fund as well with Caté Innovation. And we've been investing in Bitcoin Layer 2s and basically the applicative layer, a bunch of DeFi stuff, etc. And I think in general, DeFi, and this is the big push for us. And it seems a little backwards, like people say, well, you know, we already know everything about DeFi. I'm like, I don't think we know everything about DeFi. Like, you know, I think DeFi exists. And actually, in 22, 23, and 24, DeFi has shown that it was a resilience when everything went down, not DeFi. So very resilient, that it's gaining traction, that

• 35:25Speaker 02

  it's gaining market share against DeFi, and that it is the future. But the future takes time, you know. It was one of our former presidents, François Mitterand, we say in French, il faut donner du temps au temps. You need to give time to time. So I think DeFi is something very exciting for 25 and the years to come, but it's going to be a big push for Ledger. We integrated recently TorSwap. This was one of the integration that was the most acclaimed by users. Like, you know, everybody was super excited. And the TorSwap integration with Ledger is a huge success. It's online, so everybody can see how much transactions we're pushing into TorSwaps. And so it's pretty amazing.

• 36:11Anthony Pompliano?

  I think that you all, more so than only, probably any company I know in the space, has the seat at the intersection of consumers, institutions, security, and what I'll call kind of the financialization of all these assets. And talking about connecting to the internet, and you know, it's almost like this kind of headquarters, if you will, for somebody in both digitally and also in the physical world. And it's a very unique position. But the one thing that I tell people behind closed doors, I've never told you before, but I figure this is a good place, you guys continue to innovate. And throughout the years, I think Ledger could have just sat on its hands and said, hey, we got a good business. You know, things seem to be working. We're the leader. Now, all of a sudden, as

• 36:54Anthony Pompliano?

  you guys continue to innovate, you can see that the business is pushing kind of the pace of the innovation and kind of what's possible, but also There is this back and forth between the hardware and the software. The more that people are able to hold their assets and engage in the DeFi applications or engage in various things, that allows the opportunity for the software developers to build certain types of products, etc. And so, you know, it's kind of a friendly competition of who can go faster, but it makes the whole space better. And I think that people don't appreciate how important the security is of these hardware devices, not just for the defense, but also for the kind of what is possible with this technology as the industry continues to kind of develop.

• 37:36Speaker 02

  Look, I appreciate you saying this. I will second you, of course. And it's been a hard shift from, hey, I'm buying a ledger and I put it in a drawer, to actually, my ledger is my gate to enter my world of crypto. And I think it has been that way because crypto has evolved a lot. You know, in 2014, what could you do apart from, you know, I buy and I hold Bitcoin? That's it, you know, and I send and receive. Okay, fine, but then that's it. And now you can do more and you will be able to do more, etc. So it's funny because we have cohorts of users. So all new users, when they come, when they buy a ledger, they connect to everything because now that's what ledger is.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Old users have to figure out what ledger is and sometimes, and it's very difficult because we are privacy-first business and so therefore like we don't have a way to reach out to our users and say, hey, mister, we know we have ledger. And so now this is everything that you can do with it. So we have a lot to do in terms of education and reaching out to our users and say, hey, now this is what's possible. But again, I mean, these groups is original gangsters and they're like, well, the ledger is only cold storage. And I'm like, no, no, no, the ledger is exactly what you described and ledger is now connectivity and, you know, secure connectivity. And, and that is the future. The future of crypto is not to be on a vault somewhere and stay still. Some of it will do that, of course, like, you know, but you're gonna want to engage.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  I was talking to a friend, it's funny, like, you know, he got into crypto sort of with me, but that's not his business. But his business was, I don't know, like, you know, sort of finance in like sort of regional France. And he was telling me the other day that now he was only borrowing money on DeFi.

• 39:24Anthony Pompliano?

  It was like- It's crazy.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Crazy. It's like, who needs the banks anymore? It's like, you know, he was so excited. He's like, and because like his life was always talking to the banks and trying to get those loans, etc. He's like, I go on Aave, I think, you know, I do my thing, I do that, boom, I got my loan. Okay. And then it's all terminated, etc. He was so excited, but he got it. Like, you know, it was like, who needs, who needs the banks anymore? And so, uh, but he has a ledger, right? So I understand that too, because, okay, he has me, but like, he also understands the need now that if you're gonna do this online, like, okay, it's great, but only if you can secure the endpoint and only if you do it with a, with a, with a ledger or something secure like, like ledger that doesn't exist. But okay, you see my point? Uh, well, so I think this world is super exciting and as soon as people see it, they're

• 40:09Speaker 02

  like, oh my God, like, you know, it's, it's very powerful.

• 40:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Where can we send people to get a ledger if they're interested?

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Ledger.com. Uh, and now we have a fierce distribution network, uh, everywhere in the world. Depends where you live in the world, you know, sometimes to order on ledger.com, you have maybe cost to import, etc. And, uh, but most countries now have local distributors and resellers, etc. It's, it's, it's pretty well done. That's, that's actually, you know, to see that the industry has evolved, um, where was it? Uh, yes. So 2017 bull run and then crash in, uh, 18, 19, pick up again in 20, bull run 21. 18, 19, we lost all of our distribution, uh, after the bull run, you know? People were not convinced, etc. And so, uh, this, uh, crash of 22, 23, uh, we gained

• 40:58Speaker 02

  distribution. So no one walked away from, uh, from crypto, which was interesting. Uh, and so now we have a very strong distribution network everywhere in the world. And next year, we are going to, um, localize more ledger and we have like a few region countries where we want to press more in terms of local distribution, having a marketing presence, you know, presence with, with people, etc., etc.

• 41:22Anthony Pompliano?

  I think, uh, I think you guys are doing a fantastic job. So I appreciate all the hard work. Uh, I think every single person who's got a ledger and got, uh, anything on there, uh, they're thankful for all the security you guys provide as well. So thank you for taking the time to do this. Uh, consider me a huge fan as always, and we'll definitely do it again in the future.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Pleasure as always. Merci beaucoup.