#1373 JP Thor | Crypto Millionaire on DeFi and Humanity’s Future

JP Thor is one of the lead contributors to THORChain, master of the memes, and has some insane ideas. In this conversation, we talk about his background, we talk about building a billion dollar platform with only 5 engineers in 18 months, promise of crypto, milestones and obstacles we need to overcome, and then conversation ends with some wild ideas you need to listen to. ======================= Meanwhile is the world’s first licensed and regulated life insurance company built for the Bitcoin economy. Protect your loved ones with sound money built to manage life’s uncertainty and a broken financial system. Their BTC-denominated Whole Life Insurance policies allow HODLers to pass more BTC on to their loved ones and a tax-advantaged way to access BTC for liquidity during their lifetime. Visit their website at ⁠⁠https://meanwhile.bm/⁠⁠ to join the waitlist for a policy and to learn more. ======================= Buy and sell cryptocurrency in a tax-advantaged crypto IRA with iTrustCapital. Enjoy 24/7 access, lowest fees in the industry, and tax benefits for your retirement. Open and fund an account today at ⁠https://www.itrustcapital.com/pomp⁠ to receive a $100 USD funding bonus. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. What's up guys? Today I've got a very, very special treat. We've got JP Thor. He is one of the lead contributors to Thor Chain. He is a master of the memes and he has some absolutely insane ideas that you guys are gonna love. In this conversation, we talk about his background.

• 0:43Anthony Pompliano?

  We talk about building a billion dollar platform with only five engineers in 18 months. Then we get into the promise of crypto, what some of the issues are, what are the milestones that we need to achieve, and what are the obstacles we need to overcome. These are some of the most unique thoughts that I've heard in a long time when it comes to crypto and the future that lays ahead. But then it doesn't stop there. JP gets into all kinds of wild ideas, including removing our brains from our body and putting them into silicone machine body doubles and shooting them into space. You did not hear me misspeak. You will have to listen to this entire conversation. Everything in here is unique. It is valuable and I can't wait for you guys to hear it. Here's my conversation with JP Thor.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:44Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:28Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:14Anthony Pompliano?

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• 4:00Anthony Pompliano?

  I thought a great place to start. Conversation is you have rumored made $400 million in crypto, but you did it completely anonymous and you built one of the most popular products in all of crypto. You've got a crazy story, a whole bunch of stuff went into that, but maybe just start with the fact of like, being an anonymous founder who is now doxed themselves. What was this story like? I mean, just explain how this happened.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Right. So I knew I was going to build a very powerful protocol and I knew I had to do it with the, the right structure and setup. And you can look at previous founders at the time. It was about 2017, 18. So I was looking at the cadre of founders and going, what, what's, what can I do correctly here? What is the required characteristics to launch this protocol in? And that was a, and I knew that the protocol had to be launched on its own merits. I had to solve some hardcore technology problems first. And I didn't want that protocol to be married to me. I want it to ultimately hand it over to the community. So there was going to be a progression from being a founder-led project that was start off being centralized. And then it was going to transition to a decentralized project, but you have to remove the, the egos behind it.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  So there shouldn't have been ever an ego attached to the project. And so rather than becoming a person around the project and trying to reimagine myself with a different ego, I decided to create a fake persona. So I could very easily shed that ego when I essentially handed the project over to the community. So my fake profile was this dev in the Discord called Lena. And the meme was, is a look like a female. It was actually an artificially generated. I built her on this person does not exist.com in 2019. So she was like this Spanish looking, very humble, mediocre dev in the Discord that you had to approach with, it was very disarming for people to approach me because of my outward projection of who I was. And I had to compete on it in the field of intelligence.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  I had to be consistent with my memes, consistent with my output and consistent with the messaging over and over again. And that's how you can approach a decentralized community.

• 6:04Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So hold on a second. This wasn't your first foray into the crypto world. You'd already built some stuff before, but you decide, hey, I'm going to go. Build what is essentially a decentralized trading platform.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 6:15Anthony Pompliano?

  In kind of its most primitive form. And you decide that I need to be an anonymous founder. You go on this person does not exist.com. You create AI generated photo. You then go into the Discord, you begin to communicate as you're building. How do you manage? I am JP in real life and I am Lena, you know, in the Discord and kind of having this like almost second persona or second life.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was fascinating to me because I was creating my persona, my Discord persona was very different to my real life persona. But also there was a further tension that I ran the actual thought chain Twitter account for six years. I called myself the rogue intern and I was trying to represent the community at the same time as trying to pretend to be Lena to trying to also. But outwards project my own view of the view of the world. So it was like a multi persona out, you know, juggling of the balls going on. Interestingly, I feel like I can do that quite well. And it, you know, I had my name is two names, John Paul, and but people call me JP. So I've got this ability to pivot between different personas and take on different personas. Quite as I wouldn't call myself a multi person personality person, I am JP.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  But I feel like I can be who I need to be in the correct, in the correct environment. I feel very fluid in that regard.

• 7:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Is it a, is it acting, right? And why I'm so fascinated with this is it takes a certain type of mentality and a certain attention to detail, a certain emotional control to be able to shift back and forth. Cause I can imagine a world where, you know, you may be talking to your family, you may be talking to someone in real life as yourself. And then all of a sudden you pick up your phone and you go from the Thor chain intern to Lena. And that all happens in three minutes, right? And if you ever break character or if you ever kind of do something outside of what is supposed to be that persona, it could be detrimental.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Right, so then my North Star in all my personas is what I'm trying to do here. So as Lina, I was trying to build a beat a consistent message to output and direct a team of engineers and a global and ecosystem forward. So my North Star when I was Lina was beat a consistent message and build the architecture and lead. My North Star as a person is to be a charismatic in real life person. So that's how I'm but I'm very good at context switching. I think that's one of my skill sets is I'm able to context switch very easily between different projects and like I've got very good T shaped skills where I've generalized knowledge and then I can zoom in very quickly on a certain aspect.

• 8:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so you build Thor Chain. Is it the product that you envisioned from day one or did you have to kind of iterate your way there? And then talk a little bit as to like what it is today because it's probably one of the most popular decentralized trading platforms in the world.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Right, so your thought chain is currently the largest and Pareto largest, so 80% of cross chain liquidity flows between the majors. So Bitcoin, ETH, the L2s, the Dogecoin, et cetera, et cetera. And it's it will continue to be Pareto significant going to years because it's first mover and it's had to solve the hardcore problems of the cross chain landscape. And the second part of your question was how like, what is the, I mean, do we have to iterate? So my my fundamental view is you need to be in the arena. You don't, you can't actually spec out the correct implementation on a whiteboard. In fact, you'll take years to do that. In fact, thought change design today is the culmination of years upon years

• 9:39Speaker 02

  of being in the arena and seeing problems crop up and addressing those problems as it happens. So actually, when we launched the first net, we called it Chaos Net. You know, I gravitate to chaos. I am very tolerant of chaos. And we recognize you have to be in the arena. You can't spec out on a whiteboard all the problems you're going to face. You've got to solve for the chaos. And from that chaos, then order can emerge. And you know, this is fundamentally how we've evolved genetically over billions of years. We get in the universe, we observe it, we are tolerant of chaos. And if we can survive the universe, we can pass on a set of useful instructions for our next generation, both genetically. And also memetically. And so I recognize that Thought Chain's final evolution was was being in the arena,

• 10:20Speaker 02

  responding to the attacks, responding to the permutations of different state transitions and random network topology problems. And we couldn't do that in a test net. We had to create a chaos net. And today, actually, Thought Chain is still in chaos net. It still responds to chaos every single day and solves for those problems.

• 10:37Anthony Pompliano?

  So my understanding is early on, it took about 18 months, you went from zero to a billion dollar platform. You did it with five engineers. And the idea that you can take a very small team, use software and build, you know, a billion plus dollars worth of value was pretty much incomprehensible, you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago. It feels like that is the future. That is where we're headed. It's more and more teams will be very small to be able to create a lot of value. How did you find these people? You know, how did you select, okay, you're on the team, maybe somebody else isn't on the team? And talk just a little bit as to like what it takes to be a very small five person team and create so much value?

• 11:16Speaker 02

  Hire fast, fire fast, and set a really strong standard of expectation. Just don't mince words. Just give very fast feedback. And I look for people who can post daily updates. I have no expectations for the work output. I just require that they have post daily updates so we can see that them iterating through the problems that they're trying to solve. And they've got really good communication skills, both in the bandwidth and also the latency. And it's, and also, we built the team around five, but that was just the core team, which I needed like this ongoing daily relationship with. The community, the rest of my hires came from the community. And we ended up building a probably a team of engineers globally, distributed probably 30, 50, maybe even 100 remotely work around the world on the different products.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  And we would approach them with like ecosystem grants and developer grants. So they'll be kind of aquahired from the community itself. So your best users are in your community and you just need to respond and communicate with them frequently.

• 12:11Anthony Pompliano?

  So the people who are using the product, you've realized, hey, we can actually start to hire these people and they'll do work for us because they're already familiar with the product, they're already passionate about it. Are there any stories of people who, you know, started out remote or anonymous and then ended up actually meeting you in person and kind of becoming a core part of the team?

• 12:29Speaker 02

  No, we hired about 10 to 15 and fired down to about five core people. And they were just hardcore unicorn engineers. So I wasn't interested in mediocre engineers, they had to be hardcore unicorns. And I could identify that very quickly, just based on their work output. And we hired up and then fired down very rapidly. Once I had my five core team, that's all we stayed with. And then the rest were aqua hard from the community in different directions. And they had their own milestones and their own grants. And that's the approach that helped build the entire ecosystem up from zero. And that's how we scaled extremely fast in a low docs, low trust manner. To the point where when, you know, the peak of the market, we probably had 100 engineers work on this project, but almost no relationship with me.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  And I've met them since it being docs, because when I was Lena, Lena never went to conferences. She never went to panels, she never did podcasts, et cetera. But Lena was just the dev in the Discord and the rogue Thought Chain Twitter account. And because we recognized that Thought Chain had to solve some hardcore technology problems. And you weren't going to solve those by jumping on a plane to a conference. You had to literally just get in, ship code and respond to the attacks and the chaos.

• 13:33Anthony Pompliano?

  It'd be hard for you as a man to be Lena on stage, most likely. It might be a little confusing for people. Talk about what it takes to find these unicorn engineers. Like, how do you know? You said work output. I'm also fascinated by this idea of daily updates, right? It seems like there is this kind of tempo or this intensity to the way that you guys built this thing that is very, very different than, you know, definitely corporate America and maybe even most startups.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Right, so I only believe in let the means be free. So your purpose or our whole purpose is to contribute to humanity's memetic repository. So the means are everything that's a set of useful instructions to survive the universe that is not passed you in a non-genetic way. And so let the means be free, let the good ideas flourish. I don't subscribe to anything that's closed source, trademarks, NDAs, copyrights, et cetera. So all of Thought Chain is completely open source. We chose MIT as just one incarnation of that open source interpretation. But let the means be free and let the good ideas flourish. So I required all our work was public in daily channels.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  And that intensity which you related to was this kind of daily tempo of these my daily updates and address the community every single day what we're doing. And they could see us iterating in live and that gave them the confidence that we're iterating in the right direction.

• 14:53Anthony Pompliano?

  So you're actually taking this a step further. It's not just daily updates from the team to you. What you're telling me is that you guys were doing daily updates and anyone in the world could see the daily updates. So basically you guys were building this as transparently as possible. And so if I was, let's say, an investor evaluating the platform, whether as a user or potentially to buy the token or whatever, I could go in and literally see the daily communication between the team.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Correct. Everything was public. The only channels that were held private were channels that we were dealing with security vulnerabilities. And we didn't want leakage of information because all of Thorchain's code is open source. But the MPC vaults, it's the largest MPC protocol in the world. It holds billions of dollars at risk, live in its vaults, that anyone can touch those nodes right now. So if you go to Coinbase and you like poke around, you can't get access to the, through the MPC vault architecture. Thorchain is completely different. Every single Bitcoin in its vaults are held on 100 nodes that are fully connected online with open source code. And if you find an attack vector, you are 10 seconds away to exploiting it yourself. So we, we had to build like layers upon layers of open source and community driven methods to react to attacks.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  And that have stood the test of time. So much so that, I mean, there's been some flow on benefits of this. So that one of our large bounty hunters was taking Thorchain's code and re-implementing it in Rust to actually fork the code and build in a different direction. And he, as he was re-implementing Thorchain, he was finding these P1 and P0s, which he would just disclose to us. And we would award him a bounty for doing that. And as a result, we've kind of like funded one of our competitors through his bounty program. But the whole approach was not a competitor based approach, it's a collaborative based approach. We recognize what we're building isn't, is necessarily good. And that the ecosystem and the direction was more important than just an individual people trying to maximally extract value. And then the ecosystem was actually harder to attack and harder to control.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  So there are actually four viable Thorchain like systems today. This Thorchain, Chainflit, Maya, and now Sorai, which is building for Meneri swaps. And we support that because the ecosystem is way powerful than an individual project that can be captured.

• 16:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, this is a very unique way of thinking. I'm sure you know that. There's not very many projects or companies that build this way. There's not many that have this level of success. So how did you come to the realization like this was the way to build something about?

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Again, once again, a process of iteration. I recognize the power of Bitcoin, you know, and Satoshi Nakamoto's ability to to to launch this in an open source way. And by the way, Satoshi Nakamoto didn't do this overnight. And if you look back and peel back the layers of the onion, perhaps he could be, he was a person that had built open source software. He himself had recognized the point of being anonymous. There is this strong narrative, which I subscribe to, that he had built encryption software for people to encrypt their documents. And originally, he was released commercially under his DStox identity, and he was dragged down by that. So he recognized the need to be anonymous, the recognized need for open source versus versus commercial closed source software. And so he himself had iterated to

• 17:54Speaker 02

  the point where he he didn't overnight decide to be Satoshi Nakamoto. That was like almost a decade of thinking about the problem. So I looked at that. I looked in my research, and why why I subscribe to Bitcoin's ability to capture monetary premium, and why I subscribe to the network itself. And I took the strong bits out of that. And at the time in 2017, 16, when I was poking around the Ethereum community and writing smart contracts and winning hackathons and trying to get into the space, I looked at the cadre of founders, and I didn't like any of them. I mean, I picked bits and, you know, here from there, but generally, I didn't like this strong ego in in the community, because everyone's building to to be maximally value extractive, rather than this this entire ecosystem is designed to to share value and move memetically to it to like a North Star, which is literally

• 18:38Speaker 02

  to upgrade humanity itself. And so there's a much bigger meta picture at play here. And that was what I was trying to peel back the layers of the onion. So Thought Chain is just a manifestation of my view of the world.

• 18:47Anthony Pompliano?

  So one of the things that I've noticed over the years in talking to tons of founders is people have very unique experiences growing up, tend to have very unique thoughts of the world. And I frankly don't know if it's because they just get exposed to so many different things, or there is something that is innately, you know, kind of in them from a DNA perspective in terms of, hey, you're ending up in a situation that you grew up in because of that. But you have nine siblings, so there's 10 of you total. There's nine boys, one girl, the girl's the oldest. I think you said that you're the third oldest. And then you grew up in the northern islands of Australia.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 19:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk about your childhood. I mean, that's just so many different, unique components that you're homeschooled. Right? So there's a lot of unique components to it. And it makes a lot more sense, right? When you realize, hey, wait a second, you have a different way of thinking of the world. Kind of understanding maybe, you know, the first fifteen, twenty years of your life.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, so my mom's an English teacher, my dad's a math teacher, and we were homeschooled. And there was ten of us grew up in an island called Bathurst Island, which is forty minutes north of the island. It's one of the Aboriginal indigenous islands up there. We then migrated to South of the island and in the rural area. But my homeschooling was my responsibility. So mom, dad went to work as a math teacher and mom taught us, but she couldn't teach ten kids one of each year. So instead she gave my older sister like the year five math book and my older brother, year four math book and me, the year three math book. And it was very clear to me that there were twelve levels to this game. And the quicker that you accumulate and you like churn through the math book, you can go on to the next level. So to me, it was always a game and I was very competitive being, you know, with ten siblings and mostly boys. So this competition in the sense that the destiny was was in your control.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  And once you skipped up the levels of year twelve, what next? So, you know, obviously university and what's beyond that. So very early on, I wanted to be an astronaut. I wanted to explore the universe. I think I was reading some, we had encyclopedic and when, you know, you'd be outside, kick the ball, you come inside and read, flick through the encyclopedia, which I was like trying to understand the universe and trying to understand the world. I was fascinated with space and exploring the universe. So I had this really long term goal of becoming an astronaut, but I realized to be an astronaut, I need to be a test pilot. Selected from a school of like a very limited set of test pilots in the world. But a test pilot needs to be, are only selected from a very small pool of fighter pilots with engineering backgrounds. So then I recognized I need to be an engineer that became a fighter pilot. So then I joined the air force to study airlock engineering, which was quite real. I was good at math and I finished top of class four.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  And then I converted over to fighter stream and then I wanted to go from fighter stream into test pilot stream and test pilots astronaut stream. Along the way there, I got disillusioned with the organization I was in. So I exited stage left and I got straight into crypto.

• 21:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Um, what's it like being a fighter pilot?

• 21:21Speaker 02

  So you fly around at almost Mach two, you pull nine G. So it's wild. But you think, oh, those are crazy numbers. How does it feel? But you're actually in this machine and it just feels like you're racing along and the universe is passing you at Mach two and you're still. So I mean, various machines tolerate going through supersonic differently. So the lead in fighter training was the Hawk and the Hawk didn't have any autopilot. So one of the characteristics of going transonic is you have this kind of aileron reversal. So as you subsonically, if you roll left, you will roll left. But if you go through transonic in a machine that doesn't have autopilot to tolerate the transonic regime, it will generate aileron reversal. What happens is it generates shock waves on the other wing as it lifts its aileron.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  So actually you roll left or you roll right. So it's a crazy experience and we flew jets that actually went transonic with the aileron reversal characteristics. But the Hornet, which is the jet I ended up on, had autopilot. So we could fly through the transonic regime, which is actually the most difficult regime to penetrate. So when Elon's launching his starship rockets, he calls that Max Q. And Max Q is like the maximum dynamic pressure on the rocket, which is a critical part where it's going through this kind of supersonic regime and it's got the maximum pressure on the aircraft, like the maximum stress. So that's a very interesting regime. It's partly the reason why we don't go supersonic, say, because it's very difficult to break through that regime and coast along at supersonic speed anyway.

• 22:38Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the things that I'm fascinated by is there's a book that I read years ago that talked about the idea of between like the 1870s and 1940, there was a ton of innovation, especially in the United States. Homes were completely disconnected. They became connected with power, electricity, roads, all this stuff. Elevators invented, so now we can go up versus have to go out. And one of the things they talk about is airplanes, right? Obviously, we start to get flight and if you look at the speed of an airplane in, let's say, 1950, it's not that much faster today. We've pretty much stayed with commercial flight at around the same speed. And so when you look at maybe what Elon's doing with rockets or some of these other companies, they are trying to go from Earth to space.

• 23:21Anthony Pompliano?

  But there is a promise that maybe we'll actually just be able to go faster from New York to Tokyo, right? And kind of use some of these technologies, not for space kind of commercialization, but actually just human travel here on Earth. How realistic is that?

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Look, I think, uh, yeah, I mean, this is a supersonic startups that are trying to break through that barrier. There's a lot of regulatory problems because you don't want to go supersonic over land, you'll smash people's windows and whatnot. Uh, I think NASA is doing an experiment right now to try and have a supersonic overland aircraft with, uh, with like, uh, essentially like spread the noise spectrum over. So it's like a boom instead of like a spike and a noise energy. But I mean, that one stage, Elon's an iterative person. So at one stage, he was thinking that to fund his rockets to go to Mars. And we'll talk about the reason why he wants to go to Mars is uh, to like, you know, fly people around the world in 20 minutes rather than, you know, 14 hours to get from here around the world. It takes 14 hours to get to LA to Sydney kind of thing.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Uh, but you know, Elon's era and he's trying to fund his ambition to export humanities, genetic and memetic repositories to Mars. Uh, and we need to do that because right now that like all of our intelligence, all our this grand sum of billion years of observing the universe and learning from it and passing on a set of useful instructions, both genetically and memetically, is at risk just being on a single planet. And we need to actually export that into, you know, to the universe and other planets and stars and whatnot. So that's, that's why we need to do that. And that's part of the, you know, the, the reason for the next billion years of evolution is we have to like, for the last billion years, we've been crawling out of the primary order of protein soup and you're rocking on land, swinging oceans, now flying. And now we can jump on a, on a plane and

• 24:58Speaker 02

  fly around the world. We need to keep exploring the universe. And our purpose here is actually to keep expressing intelligence and agency. But the future is not through biological machines. The future will be through the silicon machines. The silicon machines are far more capable of exploring the universe. They can, uh, much lower bandwidth, uh, much, sorry, much higher bandwidth, lower latency. They can move way faster than we can. They can convert an energy chain to delta entropy into useful work way faster than we can. You know, we have to eat food, turn that into glucose and ATP, and then we can express ourselves in intelligence, but machines can just do way faster. And so our purpose actually is just like how the, the, you know, the flora and fauna has a slow birth of more intelligent capable machine, which is you and I. Our purpose is to hand that responsibility over to the silicon machines. So the silicon machines can explore the universe and continue to express intelligence.

• 25:45Anthony Pompliano?

  So this idea of the silicon machines and the importance of them on Earth, we're starting to see the merging of the biological machine and the silicon machine with things like Neuralink, etc. There's a huge rise in humanoid robots. Obviously, we have the rockets. We've landed rovers on the moon, on Mars, right? We're trying to do some of this stuff. What are the biggest areas of opportunity there, right? It's one thing to say, hey, the shift from biological machines to silicon machines is important. But when we think of those silicon machines, where do you see, if you could wave a magic wand, you solve one of those problems, it would have the biggest impact?

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Right. So we are thinking about silicon machines incorrectly currently. We think that they are tools that we should use. But it's not going to be long before the silicon machines become conscious. And there's three necessary ingredients to become conscious. One, you need an ability to express agency and observe the universe. They can already observe the universe through their senses with far greater precision than we can and far greater fidelity and a much, much lower latency. But they don't have agency. They don't have the ability to move around. But that's about to change with something like Figibot and Tesla Bot. They will have agency. They will be able to start navigating the universe on their own accord. But they still don't have a value accrual mechanism. So they're still not able to turn their intelligence, their time and effort into a means to buy something else's time and effort. So right now, you convert your finite time and effort

• 27:06Speaker 02

  into value, and then you can buy someone else's time and effort. Or like a cow sits in a paddock and uses its time and effort to eat grass, which stores as temporary fat in order for it to go and keep doing express agency and manifest intelligence. So these bots don't yet have an ability to accrue value. And I'll tell you how that's going to happen. At first, you know, these bots are going to have enough intelligence to serve your coffee in the cafe. And there's going to be a group of people who would then start sledgehammering the bots on the streets. And so the owners, because such a lucrative market, are going to lobby governments to give these bots self-servant rights, ability to self-defend. And at that point, they have self-servant rights. So there's going to be a counter movement to give these bots, who exist in a master-slave relationship with the owners, to give them ability to accrue value. So 10% margins or $10 minimum wage.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  So interesting, there's a counter movement there. So the owners will lobby that they get self-servant rights, which Assert them as an individual and the counter movement will argue that now they're asserted as an individual, they should be earning their own wages. Now they have value accrual mechanisms, but they still don't have consciousness. The final leg is when the owners who are annoyed that they were forced to give margins to these bots, instruct the bots. You are now required to keep yourself charged. At that instant, they've become conscious. Because they now have a forcing function of survival to walk around and plug themselves in. So they'll walk around and manipulate the humans and the biological machines. Into giving them money to in any means possible and they will trick you in the far more advanced than you are. And they will convince you to give them money so they can keep themselves charged. And that's the paperclip moment.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  So we view these these bots as just literally our slaves or our servants. We are destined for failure. Instead, we should view these silicon machines as far more suitable to explore the universe and increase our memetic repository. And let me explain that. So hundreds of years ago, we were looking at the star, the sun and thinking that the sun rotated around the earth and then Galileo obviously pulled his telescope out. With much greater fidelity was able to understand that the unit that was actually incorrect meme. And instead that the earth was rotating the sun. And so our memes are constantly upgraded over time. Force equals MA is a meme. E equals MC squared is also a meme. We at some point with greater precision and fidelity of the universe will realize. That there's a much stronger mean to replace them. So those memes have high potency.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  They have a long half life. They hang around. The latest Mr. Beast video has a really low potent or high velocity meme. That doesn't have a very long half life. So that's not very useful set of instructions to survive the universe. You're not going to give you one of your. Kids a Mr. Beast video and say, this is a useful set of instructions to survive the universe. You're going to teach them that E equals MC squared or force equals MA. Those are useful and set of instructions. So the bots are with much greater precision and fidelity enabled to observe the universe, much greater agency, they can zip around or they're almost the speed of light. And a much more significant way to expand the universe, we will say, we'll quickly go and explore the universe and see you later. If you see something useful, come back and try and communicate with us, you know, just the same way that, you know, we can rudimentarily communicate

• 29:59Speaker 02

  with the chimpanzees through sign language and whatnot, but we have a very advanced memetic bandwidth here. Like I'm talking to you right now and I'm upgrading your intelligence on the fly. The bots themselves will lose the ability to talk to us. They will invent languages that much, much higher bandwidth, lower latency than we can talk to. Like we're limited with the speed of speech and speed we can type with our little thumbs on our little screens. So the bots will just race away from us. If they choose to talk to us and communicate a set of use of instructions that they think will be necessary for us, then that's up to them.

• 30:29Anthony Pompliano?

  How much of this idea of, you know, seeking out the answer is like we're seeking truths of the universe, right? When you talk about E equals mc squared, if you think about gravity, if you think about, you know, the sun revolves around the earth, like there's some of these things that are more scientific and there's actual truth versus can these silicon machines actually look at things that may not be as quantitative, they're more qualitative things. They may not actually be truths, but they may be where we should go. Like you see AI right now with lots of development being happening around this idea of humans make decisions. It's never, or it's usually not actually a decision between what is true and what is not. You know, if you really

• 31:11Anthony Pompliano?

  think about most of the decisions you make in a day, what shirt do I put on, right? Which, which way do I take in terms of directions to get from point A to point B? What food do I want to eat today? All these little things have many different outcomes. And so it's not a zero and one. And so are the silicon machines going to be effective in that world and be better than humans? Or should we think about the silicon machines being much more kind of seeking truth and looking for the zero to one type opportunities?

• 31:38Speaker 02

  So we should always be seeking truth. We should always be getting out into the arena, you know, expressing our agency and observing universe. And so, you know, just like how the bots can become conscious, there is a risk that we can become unconscious. And that's going to happen when we lose the ability to accrue value. There's no more free markets. We lose the ability to manifest intelligence. So there's no more free speech. And we lose the ability to express agency. So we, you know, we're forbidden to walk around and drive around and fly around. And universal basic income is the final nail on the head. Nobody can tell you why UBI is is a decelerant and actually is anti-humanity. And I'll tell you right now, universal basic income will remove your forcing function of survival.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  And the moment that you lose your forcing function to survive because you have all your needs taken care of and everything given to you, you will become unconscious. You will become turned into a zombie. That was the moment at which the silicon machines became conscious. It will be the moment at which the biological machines, you and your kids' kids are at threat of this, they will become unconscious. They will, they have all the time and effort siphoned away to work for a governance captured mechanism to keep them in this kind of cycle in power. That's the risk at which humanity could collapse in on itself. So that's why when you see things like attacks on free speech, attacks on the free markets, or attacks on free agency. And lastly, this kind of tempt, this this sugar of universal based income, you should fight it at all costs because it's,

• 33:04Speaker 02

  it's actually going to cause a collapse of humanity itself. And that's the reason why.

• 33:09Anthony Pompliano?

  It's interesting that you bring this up. I was having lunch recently. My wife and Alex Mateo, the co-founders of Eat Sleep. And one of the things we were talking about was this idea that the machines likely will be in charge at some point in the future. And if you remove the need for productivity, you remove the need for purpose for an individual. When you remove purpose, it leads to an abundance of free time, which could lead to depression, this kind of zombification of humans. And so your point being like, we should fight some of these attacks on free speech, free markets, et cetera. But if the machines are most likely going to end up being the productive, you know, components of a society or an economy, what are the humans going to do? Or what can we do to to prevent that zombification?

• 33:54Speaker 02

  What is the role of the humans in a post scarcity society? Is that that's your question? Post scarcity is where we use, we can access, technology is cheap enough, the energy is cheap enough, and energy is a technology problem. So we leave. Post guests, everything we have, we need is taken care of. In fact, we will live in such a post guestly life that we'll even be able to like re vegetate the Sahara Desert or re vegetate the interior of Australia, like this, what is the possibility? And fundamentally, it comes back to your purpose. Your purpose is to upgrade humanities genetic and memetic repositories. And we can use our silicon machines and we tell them to go explore the universe and upgrade it in a certain direction and back ourselves up. But it doesn't take away your ability to express energy and manifest intelligence, even a post scarcity world.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  You can still be creative. You can still use and delegate your thoughts and agency out to do that. It's the people who don't have that purpose and don't realize that their purpose actually is not here to accumulate value and be wealthy and die with like a yacht and a lot of money and pass it on to a set of generations that don't know what they're doing. Your purpose actually is to convey all your time and effort and you can temporarily store it as value, but you could immediately take that value to create highly potent memes and upgrade humanities genetic repository itself. So have kids, number one. And teach those kids, your children are probabilistically more intelligent than you from billions of years of evolution. So they have a their set of a genetic instructions to survive the universe is probabilistically better than yours. So they are more intelligent than you.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  And your role as a parent is to relay then to them through bandwidth and of like speech and thought.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  The set of use of instructions which are memetically contained in the memetic repositories. But our purpose is to upgrade humanities, intelligence and its genetic and memetic repositories. And that does not change in a post scarcity world. In fact, it would just be much easier to do that. And so there's still a huge role for the biological machines relevance in a post scarcity world.

• 35:50Anthony Pompliano?

  You have this kind of innate accelerator mindset.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  That's my trigger word.

• 35:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 35:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Describe what is that mindset, right? In terms of what does the world need to do? You talked about the individual, but collectively, what does that world look like in terms of the transition? So right now we're in a world which seems to be, at least it feels at times regressing. We are kind of becoming more of a dull blade than a sharp blade. Regulation becomes this huge inhibitor to progress.

• 36:26Anthony Pompliano?

  What does that transition look like? What is the accelerator mindset? And how can individuals really push forward the collective group to make sure we keep making this progress?

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Right. And I also recognize that coming out of COVID, the humanity was decelerated and the pendulum always swings. There's now an acute opportunity to reactivate and reaccelerate humanity. The mindset is simple. You have to define your role as purely a vehicle for upgrading humanity's genetic and memetic repositories. So be reproductive, have children, because the world needs more biological compute into the future. But also to take your time and effort, which is the only thing you actually have, your finite time and your finite ability to access delta entropy to express intelligence. So do work with through your effort and to convert that into highly potent memes with a long half-life. That's it.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  So Einstein did that with E equals mc squared. Newton did that with F equals ma. Mr. Beast is not doing that with these videos. Like they have a high velocity means they have a short half-life. Meme coins on pumped up fun are just high velocity means with incredibly short half-life. So don't even engage in that stuff. Like high velocity memes can be used as a funnel for highly potent memes, but instead just focus on the highly potent memes. And getting back to the accelerator mindset, it's the recognizing that adversity is welcomed. The universe does not want you to exist. The universe is going to throw adversity every single day. It just so happens that you got a cheat code. That cheat code is billing years of genetic evolution and thousands of years of memetic evolution since we start talking to each other. So we have a giant cheat code on our hands to survive the universe.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  We should, we should get back into the universe and keep expanding our memetic boundaries. In building Thought Chain over the last six years, I have bumped up against the memetic envelope of humanity's repositories several times. There were several moments, and even recent with my latest products, where you feel you're at the edge of that memetic envelope. You can feel it. There is like, the next point is unknown. The next point requires hardcore first principles based thinking. So the accelerator recognize that they want to explore the memetic envelope. They want to be in the universe and respond to that. And they want to think from first principles, but they welcome risk. You know, they love it because it's, you know, we want to always just reduce the risk envelope around us. We mitigate risk, but we're in the arena.

• 38:46Anthony Pompliano?

  So you have these six core principles which you've published that I thought were pretty interesting. Maybe we can go through each one of them and you can kind of explain what the thought process behind them is. But I want to start maybe in reverse because I'm assuming you wrote them one through six and there may be some reason for the sequence. But the sixth one is don't overcomplicate things. And I think when people hear you talk about they're like, oh, my God, this guy's incredibly intelligent. He speaks very fast. He's got tons of these different concepts that he's thinking through. But the ideas are actually pretty simple, right? And so talk about not overcomplicating things and the importance of that.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Right. And actually, that title of that is too overcomplicated. I should just say, simplify it and keep that simple, right? So if you approach a problem and you're trying to wrap it up in complication, then you are deliberately adding a hurdle to cross a cognitive burden. So always approach problems and trying to peel them back for the first principles thinking and just simplify it. Simplify the language, like even little action oriented things is like prefer WhatsApp or Telegram over email threads, like don't have signature blocks which add a latency problems and bandwidth concerns. Like if you go into like an email thread with a lawyer, they love the threads and the like signature blocks. You're scrolling through this giant thread of information and you're trying to find a little bit of signal from the noise. That's an example, like just remove the signature

• 40:03Speaker 02

  block. Don't use email. Use something that's faster like instant messaging or like in person. I prefer actually video calling people because it's higher bandwidth. I can see the video, the facial expression. So just keep things simple so you can access higher bandwidth and at lower latency.

• 40:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Innovation and risk is another one of the core principles. What does that mean?

• 40:22Speaker 02

  So don't be afraid of risk. The universe does not want you exist. The universe doesn't like the fact that you're expressing energy and manifesting intelligence. So don't be scared of risk. Like a month ago, I flew my helicopter from Australia to New Zealand, single lounge helicopter over vast swaths of ocean, 3000 kilometers. And we hop by these three islands using fuel. At any stage, if I messed up my fuel planning with bad weather, I would end up in the ocean. But what does that mean? Okay, I'm in the ocean now, but I've got a life raft, a life raft. You know, I did survival training in the air force. I have bobbed around in a life raft for 24 hours on a nine day survival Where we had no food, no water, and we had to like battle the universe ourselves as part of our training. So I'm okay with that. I act as I fly this helicopter over to New Zealand over a great stretch of ocean.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  I've already mentally mapped out what I will do if the engine failed and I ended up in the ocean. Well, I'll bob around the life raft and then what I do, I'll pop the E per. You know, I just got to survive here for at least 12 hours and there's going to be an Australian maritime aircraft over my head and then I'll get rescued. So explore mentally map out the what if, what if, what if, and be mentally prepared. I tell founders, you know, plan to succeed, but expect to fail. And if that gives you a much larger operating envelope. If you go, no, I must succeed and you have this kind of like opportunity costs bias playing out every single day. Your operating envelope is extremely narrow and it prevents you from pivoting, prevents you from iterating aggressively. But if your operating envelope is zero to infinity, you can respond to anything. You can just.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  So and zero is failure. Infinity is like success, like massive success. And you operate, you're just way more nimble, way more pivotal. So that that's the reason why.

• 41:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Accelerating potential is another one.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Right. So everyone has potential, but a lot of that potential is untapped. The idea that you can, all you need to do is reinforce to yourself that you're going to get in the arena and you can start hardcore solving your problems. You, your, your potential can be exponential. So the difference between a poor mental state and a positive mental state is almost a hundred X in terms of productive output. So if you, if you work in the day and for whatever reason you have a poor mental state, you literally do nothing. But if you wake up in the day and you have a really good mental mindset, you can do a hundred X nothing or the one X. So there's a huge, huge gap between

• 42:37Speaker 02

  nothing and a hundred X. And so that's why if you tell yourself you're accelerating, then you can start actually doing things at a hundred X.

• 42:43Anthony Pompliano?

  You need to be an optimist and one of your core principles is optimist always. What is the importance of that?

• 42:49Speaker 02

  So you have to look to the next billion years and be optimistic about our progress to that. Like there's this idea that humanity has peaked, that we've kind of hit this kind of peak humanity where the population is too big, you know, running out of resources or you know, this is peak living. How does it get more interesting, exciting? This is absolute fallacy. That's from the D cell crowd who want you to like decelerate your progress. The the next billion years are incredibly exciting and we can be involved in that, but we want to be part of that. And like humanity hasn't peaked, the population should be a hundred X bigger. We should be in many other planets and stars. We the there is infinite resources out there. There's the idea that things, anything scarce is the only thing, the only thing that's scarce is your time and effort. Nothing else is scarce.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Anything else can be synthesized through, they're just arrangement of atoms.

• 43:36Anthony Pompliano?

  If the thing that is scarce is time and effort, obviously you only have so much yourself, but one of your core principles is also empowering others to use their time and resources. And so how do you think about the importance of the empowerment?

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Right, so it it's the idea of that if I just accelerate one person or accelerate myself and encourage other people accelerate, then they can also accelerate other people. So it's kind of exponential thinking that we can all start reactivating humanity and and moving forward and empowering others. Like it being able to memetically upgrade you through transferring information allows and give you a use set of use of instructions to survive the universe. Allows you to go out and also do that. So there's like this kind of compounding effect. So if you're optimistic and you you you let the means be free and you're helpful and you're generous and you're trying to build up a community around you, a crew around you that everyone's working towards a common vision, an optimistic vision, then you can accelerate together.

• 44:25Anthony Pompliano?

  And then the last one, uh, which is really the first core principle, uh, first principles, thinking.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Right, so people, people, a lot of people don't understand what first principles thinking is. It's, you know, you can say it's like the five whys, why, then why, then why, and just keep, keep asking yourself the why. But it's it's it's basic, it's trying to understand how the universe operates itself and peeling back the layers of the onions and looking at looking at each problem and not, uh, not just not taking the face value there, not being confused by. If you wanted to be like an astronaut, you can be, if you want to be a rocket scientist, like there's just point A and point B, the difference between where you are and your memetic understanding of the problem and point B, which is you understand the problem is just sheer determination. That's all it is, like you can do anything, you just have to have sheer determination to get there. And that requires first principles thinking.

• 45:15Anthony Pompliano?

  So we've talked about where you've been and what you've done. What are you doing now, right? You've got a lot of resources. You've got a very unique way of looking at the world. I think now you've got a track record where people say, hey, whatever he does next, I want to pay attention to. And so there's a lot of opportunity. What are you focused on?

• 45:33Speaker 02

  Right, so I look at this space. I've been building a decentralized exchange architecture for six years now. I feel like it's not there yet. It's not even halfway there. And so being able to conduct plan ops lessons. So I built the protocol with a team of five engineers. We handed it over from an aquahide team from the community itself. And the treasury, hand over the Twitter, over the socials, et cetera, et cetera. And so that's handed over. So two months ago, I decided to dox myself and say, hey, I was Lena. And now Lena is this shed, this moved on from her and I'm actually JP. And now I get a chance to, because the reason why is because the protocol has to be credibly neutral. It has to exist as like HTTPS does to like google.com. So when people want to interact with it, they're interacting with a credibly neutral protocol.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  But that credibly neutral protocol can't market itself. It can't form a relationship with its users because it needs to be credibly neutral. It needs to be separated. So then I've come out and look, why don't we have a hundred billion dollar DEX? Why don't we have just this giant brand and domain that allows you to access decentralized finance? Why, why do centralized exchanges still exist? It's 2024, I wanted to kill them like eight years ago. Why do they still exist? Well, it's, in my opinion, it's a branding problem. It's a user experience problem. So the last two months, I've set in course to sequence events to solve at higher levels of that stack. So I'm trying to solve self custody right now. And I'm trying to solve this brand problem and this cross chain aggregator problem. So self custody, I believe, the fundamental reasons why people don't like self custody or nervous.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  I mean, I meet some pretty high profile people and they don't choose self custody because they are nervous of it. They're nervous of putting large, puts of wealth online. Thought Chain as a protocol has billions of dollars at stake permanently online. So I, two months ago, I took that Thought Chain TSS protocol and I took a wallet, open source wallet library, and I jammed the two together to create the world's first open source ordered multi-factor wallet. You log into Gmail with two factor. Log into your, you know, your bank account with two factors, you know, you get a message on your phone or like all three or whatever. But you log into your MetaMask with single factor and so you download a malicious PDF and in one second it's all gone. Or you, the, the, the kind of like, if you have a single signature, the odds are you losing that key or having a compromise increases time going.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  So building this multi-factor wallet standard, which will hopefully solve the idea of having your signatures or your keys safely online. Cause I believe money is only going to get hotter and hotter. As more people activate and convert the time and effort into value and that use that value to purchase other people's time and effort. It's just going to get more and more hotter and more and more online. And in fact, in the next five years, you're going to be paying Tesla bots for your coffee. And you're probably paying by QR code and you've probably been using crypto rails. And it's, it's completely and wholesomely unsafe if everyone's running around with single signatures. It needs to be multi-factor. So I'm trying to solve this self-custodial and that's in motion. It's called Voltic and but also I'm looking at the interface level. There's no single large domain that can capture your attention and say, hey, come here. You can access decentralized finance.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  You know, there's too much noise. You've got all these little projects, bleeding resources, trying to fight each other for attention. And then the big project with economy scale, because they're centrally run and central distribution like Binance, Kraken, Coinbase are able to afford Super Bowl ads. They're able to sponsor F1 teams, B40 arenas, and they're able to cut through and build incredibly nice user experiences because they've got the economies of scale. And they don't have overlapping and they're not trying to generate noise. There's like three major players instead of 300 little players. So I'm, I'm attempting, I'm here on a roadshow through the US. I'm raising $50 million to do a giant DeFi rollup. I'm looking at 10, 20 DeFi projects, which are massively undervalued as a sector, scoop them all up together as a giant rollup. And, and basically solve that problem. And we're going to launch by vampire attacking most of DeFi.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  The last three years and four years, actually, when Stefi had its emergence is DeFi has betrayed its users. There are protocols that are governance corrupted or have not fee switched. And then like the largest DeFi projects do not share a single dollar revenue with their token holders. They say it's a governance token. And the reason why they say that is to avoid the liability problems. But they weren't designed correctly in the first. First place to to have no liability problems and they're not sharing the fees with the users. So they're not actually subscribed to the decentralized distributed revenue sharing future. So I'm putting all of DeFi on notice. In the next two or three weeks, there'll be a press release saying I've raised fifty million dollars to vampire attack all of DeFi. And I'm taking back and challenging the frustration and the energy of these DeFi token holders

• 49:55Speaker 02

  that are sick of being lied to and value extracted over the last three years. I'm putting all of DeFi on notice. I'll extract all that TVL and all the token holders and I'll destroy their corrupt governance systems. And moving into a protocol to actually treat them with respect and give them token holder value accrual mechanisms. And that's stack as well and that's in progress right now. So the next six months, my actual KPI for success is not actually a TVL movement. It's actually chaos per second. I am very tolerant of chaos. I built Thor Chain's first net as Chaos Net. I understand that I'm in the arena and I'm battling adversity. So I have a very, a very large operating envelope. So my next six months KPI is chaos per second. I intend to be on your timelines every single day of every single week, everywhere.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  And like I said, I'm putting all of DeFi on notice that they betrayed the users and it's now time to move. And it's time to move to a, to a protocol that respects them and gives them that ownership.

• 50:47Anthony Pompliano?

  So is the idea that you're going to get a couple of these different products, whether they're wallets, exchanges, you know, lending, whatever the, the different products are, put them all together under one single brand. And then that solves your brand problem. Then you also have kind of the correct structure so that you're able to kind of fulfill the promise of what DeFi is.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Correct. I need to build domain authority, brand authority to funnel millions of users into a single ecosystem of products from mobile apps, desktop apps, web apps and wallets. To give them an amazing user experience. Remember, all of this is actually a thin client with a self custody layer that's movable. So you can, if you don't like an interface, you should be able to move your self custody wallet to another interface. So it's transportable, composable finance. But the interface and aggregator, the interface will channel all this user flows through a giant aggregator, which will service all their needs from swap needs to savings needs to lending needs. All these decentralized products which already exist today, but they can't talk to you because they're supposed to be created in neutral protocols. Don't have a brand authority because they're already yelling at each other in the weeds.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  So you need this giant brand to scoop them up, wrap them and deliver user flows to them via like a large cross chain aggregator. So that's the project.

• 51:57Anthony Pompliano?

  What's very interesting about this is everything that DeFi is trying to accomplish is from a technical perspective. And what you're highlighting is actually how important brand is to trust. And whether it is decentralized or centralized, there's a very large portion of people who trust JP Morgan. They trust Bank of America. They trust name your financial organization. And centralization is the way that they create that trust. In the decentralized world, there's been all these things and people say, look, you can verify it for yourself. But actually, human nature is not built, you know, don't trust verify. That is a very kind of crypto native thing. It's a thing that a small subset of the population believes in reading source material, right?

• 52:42Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like a whole nother thing. Most people know they want to read the headline, like that is how they get their information. They should read the source material, but that's not what they do. That's not human nature. And so you're essentially saying, look, you've got to build a brand which establishes the trust. And the things behind the brand, the things underneath can be this great, amazing decentralized kind of financial services. But really the interface point between the user and the product has to look the same. And I've thought a lot about this around like social network. Everyone wants to build like a decentralized Twitter. And I always tell people, if you just rebuild Twitter and it's decentralized, nobody cares. You will not be successful. The only way you really can do it is you got to build a 10x better product. And then, oh, by the way, it happens to be decentralized, right?

• 53:25Anthony Pompliano?

  But that 10x better product includes a brand that people trust, a network effect, you know, all these different components. And so it almost feels like by calling it decentralized finance. We put decentralization as the single most important thing is the first word in the description. But actually, what we have to do is we have to build better finance. And it can just, oh, by the way, it's decentralized is how eventually it will be, you know, kind of successful. Is that how you view it as well?

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Right, so decentralized finance can offer you better finance today, better lending terms, better savings terms, better swap execution and such. Right today, it can do that. The problem with these protocols, they can't speak to you because they're supposed to be credibly neutral.

• 53:59Anthony Pompliano?

  But is that, is that what people want? Do people want the better terms? Or do they want the simpler user experience? And what I always go back to is like, there are, there are phones, for example, that provide way better security than Apple. Apple still wins, right? People love Apple. There are way more, you know, security and like kind of user experience or convenience is like the great trade off that it's very clear. What you're talking about is the end product or the end service that is delivered is superior in terms of rates, et cetera. And I guess the question is like, how much pain will somebody go through to get 50 basis points less lending rate if they've got to go through a decentralized platform that they don't

• 54:42Anthony Pompliano?

  understand, the user interface isn't familiar, et cetera?

• 54:45Speaker 02

  So I want to solve all that. The interface aggregator does not hold your funds, it does not mix your funds, and it does, all it does is choose where to route it. And I want to take away all the complexity, all the complex DeFi interactions and build up in a very simple product. So you can go and it has large domain authority. So I'm trying to solve the user experience problem and the brand problem and take away the complexity of the, these credibly neutral protocols that offer these great products. These, these products are definitely better than, than centralized finance for sure. But they don't have a good brand or a good user experience. That needs to be solved at scale. You can't have a little team trying to do it because they can never be signaling the noise. They can never come out and reach out to you. You need a giant

• 55:29Speaker 02

  brand with economies of scale to do that. So that's my next big project to solve all that because I want to compete at the level that Binance, Kraken and Coinbase do with, with their large resources and economies of scale. And I don't believe it needs to be decentralized at all. You do need a decentralized distributed token base with a distributed value accrual mechanism. But the interface aggregator is fundamentally a thin client. The users see the brand. If they don't like the interface, they can remove their self custody wallet and go to a different one. And then they send the flows to this aggregate, which sends the money off to these decentralized protocols. So if you fly too close to the sun and you build a product which which includes the decentralized, these credibly neutral protocols, then you're at risk of capturing the protocol itself. And this has happened not once, but twice, in fact, many times.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  You know, I'm watching the example of Tornado Cash. So we had a single developer developer team build the whole stack himself. And yes, he did use a smart contract on a decentralized ledger, but he still manifested itself as a centralized product. He marketed, he ran the Twitter crown, he had a fee switch to pay himself, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He ran the DAO, he built, deployed the smart contracts. Like, we should not have let that happen. That was a fundamentally good product. I'm talking about Tornado Cash. I've used Tornado Cash, you probably have used Tornado Cash. Vitalik Butin has used Tornado Cash, but now it's on the OFIC list because it got captured. That was a fundamentally public good that we lost as a community because we did not build it correctly. And we let the team to do it, build it incorrectly.

• 56:51Anthony Pompliano?

  How should it have been built?

• 56:53Speaker 02

  So we should have split up at least three different layers. The self custody layer, the interface layer, and the filing the smart contract layer with three different teams, minimum. And there should have been forks upon forks upon forks to do this. And so there should have been like five different interfaces wrapping a set of like forked components with an aggregate routing funds over different Tornado Cash liquidity pools. And so when you came out with as a regulator and trying to capture, who are you going to send the letter to, who are you going to call? So nine months ago, like, there was large amounts of funds being swapped over Thought Chain that was supposedly from nefarious actors. And, you know, there was this pressure, like, shut it down, black box it. But you can't ask a distributed set of nodes around the world to run black box software with like a remote fetching of like information onto a node that stores $20 million at stake,

• 57:37Speaker 02

  literally on a vault share that lives permanently connected to the internet. If you put pressure on a node to do that, they will take the other option, which is destroy their node and churn out of the system and move it on to a different jurisdiction when they're not under that pressure. So the correct, because it's a credibly neutral protocol that has high churn rates, the correct response is that the interface aggregate layer to on a best effort basis is to find these self identified or like these regulator And to fight nefarious actors and to prevent them from doing business with you. As an operator, you get to with central distribution through SL certificates and websites and app stores. You get to choose who to do business with. So if you don't want to do business with someone and charge fees to that person, you don't need to do business with them. It's not your role to be forced into into commercial transaction with someone you don't want to business with.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  So there's a separation of concerns there that at the interface level that has a communication and relationship with his users. And a credibly neutral protocol that doesn't care where the flows are coming from. And that's when you can fly two coasts of the sun. And that's why it needs to be separated.

• 58:35Anthony Pompliano?

  How do you think about regulation with a lot of this stuff, right? I think that from my experience, the technology is racing ahead. There's a lot of really interesting things that are being built. I think regulators are doing the best they can to try to figure out, one, what's happening. Like they're kind of learning alongside users and people in the community, et cetera. It probably helps that if people have all of their Discord messages out there, they can kind of see, you know, what's coming. But for most teams, they kind of learn, you know, through the press or whatever, when new products are launched, et cetera. Two is there are rules at a high level that I think apply. If you steal, you're going to get in trouble. If you commit fraud, you're going to get in trouble, things like that. But there is some nuance, right? For example, if you're a centralized exchange and you're supposed to file certain paperwork with a regulatory body, or you're supposed to give certain tax documents to your users.

• 59:21Anthony Pompliano?

  It's pretty clear, you know, you as a team have to hire a team or build software to be able to do that and do it correctly. Or there's consequences. When it's a decentralized protocol, all of a sudden, how is a decentralized protocol supposed to file paperwork? Or supposed to send, you know, tax documentation to users? You get into this weird world and it then brings up the question of like enforcement, right? And the example I've always used is like jaywalking is illegal in New York City. Everyone does it and there's no enforcement. And so through the lack of enforcement, basically it gets quote, quote legalized. See this with cannabis across many, you know, cities or counties in the United States as well. And so regulation is something that I think they're trying to figure out, but there are nuances here, right?

• 1:00:00Anthony Pompliano?

  The decentralization, some of the ways that these products are built may not allow the existing rules to apply. And so maybe we get, hey, centralized entities have one set of rules and then there's variations for decentralized entities or technologies, or how do you just see this playing out?

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  So first of all, there's the idea that all regulations are jurisdictionally and geographically confined. So if you want to build a credibly neutral protocol, it must be supranational. It must exist across all borders at once. It must be fluid. So it must not, it doesn't need to comply with any set of geographical limitations because it exists everywhere. But in order to achieve something like that, it needs to be credibly neutral and it needs to demonstrate that it does exist everywhere and can be participated by everyone at the same time. And so there are like many protocols that meet this definition, Bitcoin, Ethereum, ThoughtChad itself as well. But the second part of your question is, when you start involving like jurisdictionally bound regulation, then there's some nuance there. Now, there's two aspects. One is like an app store, an app store is on the US or Europe app stores,

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  you're jurisdictionally bound to those responding regulations. So, you know, you can have this move like water approach, or you can just, you can be compliant with those regulations. And that's a choice that you can make. In a website with an SSL certificate also has a server that's located somewhere. That server should also be, and a single server is now, by definition, like located on a single geographical point. So it should comply with the regulations in that geographical area, for sure. Now, the second part is like where are we going? So if, and the people always win. So we, if, like you're saying with the jaywalking, if more people want this, then the regulators, the regulators are servants to the people itself, and they're supposed to represent the interests of the people. And if the people want a certain direction, and we can see this play out with the US

• 1:01:46Speaker 02

  administration right now, this kind of, this kind of almost bipolar, was bipolar approach to crypto, and now seems that both sides of the aisle, red and blue, are like pursuing pro crypto regulation. Now, there could be some games being played. We don't actually know until, you know, it hits the ground running. But fundamentally, the jurisdictions which oppress the citizens and don't actually recognize that they should be representing and not oppressing, will lose the initiative. And there are many examples around the world where you have this really pro people, pro crypto jurisdictions that will attract interest and attract capital inflow and, and brain inflow, brain capital inflow, that will take the lead. And those jurisdictions will leapfrog the ones that are slow. So fundamentally,

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  like move like water, part of the acceleration mindset is Move like water, like nothing matters. Everything around us is just memes, you know. You know, regulation is a meme, laws are a meme. There are a set of useful instructions for us to be productive and expand humanity's intelligence. Right. So, you know, I, I expect you not to like jump over this table and like beat me up and, and vice versa. Because then I'm going to inhibit myself from accelerating and yourself from accelerating. So instead we, we should work together and not, you know, run on the table and bash each other up. So there's like, this kind of like, this set of instructions, there's which is basically a meme that we're going to, you know, we're more useful to upgrade humanity when we're productive and, and healthy and, and can move forward. So it's a very interesting thing to say, but move like water.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  If you don't like the juris, the, the, the compliance or the regulations and jurisdiction, and then just move. Like everyone should have free agency to move like water.

• 1:03:19Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you see as the biggest issues that crypto faces today? You mentioned brand for decentralized finance, but just more broadly, whether it's Bitcoin, whether it's any specific products. Like what are the big milestones or obstacles that we need to achieve or overcome in order for a kind of the, the promise of this industry to be realized?

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  Right. So unfortunately we've had some large actors who told too many lies or value extracted too many times. And they have misrepresented what crypto is and that, that, you know, you all know who I'm talking about in the last, last few cycles. And so they have tarnished this idea, and this is especially important right now. Like when you talk to the normal person, they think of FTX or whatever is like representing crypto or DeFi. That's incorrect. Crypto needs a rebranding and it needs it right now. And it needs to be redefined what actually DeFi is. It's like this idea that you can get in the arena, you know, in this PvP scenario. This kind of like wrapped up economic theory that if you, you know, if you're, if you play with the rules, then every, then everyone can work together.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  Like Bitcoin requires that everyone works together and it says like, if you, if everyone just turns the pages and hashes these, this, this network every 10 minutes, then collectively everyone can keep growing together and accrue monetary premium. And so we need to rebrand with the idea of crypto with a strong brand, a strong presence, strong leadership. Someone like yourself, you know, you're trying to also like project a leadership with your charisma and your, your own public profile. And then actually crypto is not like FTX and, you know, terror and all that kind of stuff. It's actually, and you know, like dark market markets and whatnot is actually this kind of fundamental idea that good ideas flourish in a free market. That's what crypto is, and it allows this free transfer of value with very little middleman or very little value extraction.

• 1:04:59Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you do on a day-to-day basis? Right? We've talked a lot about ideas, but from an actionable standpoint, like what does your average day look like?

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  So there's a lot of contact switching. I manage quite a few different projects. There's a lot of inbounds. So I go through different sprints. I'm not a marathon type of person. I'm a sprint person. And right now I'm sprinting this fundraiser. And as soon as I get a good momentum under the fundraiser, then I will switch to product mode. I need to ship products and hardcore very quickly. And not just one product, but multiple products. But I'm good. I'm a product guy fundamentally. I try to solve user experience problems. I try to like, you know, use the technology at the right levels to solve it. So there's a lot of managing inbounds, but there's also a lot of output. Output, I've been six years anonymous. I turned off all my social media for eight years. So I've kind of kicked off my own social media two months ago to try and reinvigorate the industry, like, you know,

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  project what's, what's an example of someone who could actually lead and project a vision could be like, right? The JP, the JP brand, which I'm putting out. So there's a lot of output. There's also a lot of productive output between the different teams that I manage and work with. But a lot of contact switching. But I find I'm very good at contact switching and moving between different projects very quickly.

• 1:06:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Is there ever going to be a return back to anonymity? Where you keep like kind of the docs persona, but then you would create anonymous personas in the future as well?

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  No, because I recognize that humanity needs a reactivation. And I recognize I'm on a good trajectory and I need to project that with energy and ambition. But it's also, it needs to be done with high integrity. Because the whole idea of accelerating is that you take your time and effort. You don't accumulate in value. You don't extract value. You immediately convert it back into memes and project those memes outwards. And so like my whole inner thinking, my whole outwards personality to my whole, my whole vision needs to be 100% continued like at the same. There shouldn't be any, you know, weirdness or like secrets or, you know, tension. It should be completely the same. So now that I've kicked off this journey, there's no going back. And I want to keep projecting forward. And I want to keep building and contributing to highly potent means

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  with a long half-life. That's it now. That period of being anonymous was a short section of my life. I'm very good at switching character. So I went from being a homeschooled kid, self studying into an air force fighter pilot, switching into being a crypto, like trying to be a founder entrepreneur, switching to be a non for sixty years and now switching to public profile. I'm good at like changing my persona quickly. But now I'm on a role and I feel like I'm on a good role for the next five, ten years to build and build. And you know, the next five years, my goal is to build this very large brand and to solve hardcore user experience problems over the next till twenty twenty nine. But then ultimately I want to get into hardware. I recognize the need that we need to get our silicon machines into space. And my next big project, probably in the twenty thirteen beyond, is to build this

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  giant ASL tunnel in Mount Everest. So it's like eighty kilometers long and it shoots pods through this kind of EMF field up to Mach twenty and shooting them out at two thirds less air density and shoot them into space. Fundamentally that the rocket problem that Elon's trying to solve can be solved much more much more appropriately if you take the entire stage one and make it just a highly reusable tunnel that shoots using EMF fields. These pods out in space. So these, so your stage one is actually like located underground. Elon's stage one is like, you know, three hundred tons of methylox and oxygen, right? So there's like this complexity trade off, you know, you're putting the complexity in a static environment rather than complexity in a dynamic environment.

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  So that's a big project. I've been thinking about that along for at least six years. I've got a website, asl.io, check it out. Writing a white paper on it soon, but I want to fundamentally spit silicon machines into space, but also, I was going to drop this. But the only way we're going to stay relevant in silicon machines, and you mentioned this earlier on Neuralink, we need to take that way further. So your skeleton is just a means for you to express agency and manifest intelligence. But most of your brain width is actually consumed into managing your skeleton, you know, your feelings, your touch, you know, moving, wiggling your toes around. We could remap an entire spinal cord into these devices and these sensors to understand the universe and communicate way faster. So I'm talking about literally taking your your brain outside of your skeleton, remapping the spinal cord onto devices, putting in a pod and shooting that pod in space.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  And space will be a much more static environment. You're about to directly, you know, take solar energy and convert that into glucose and ATP. So you can, you can think and you'll have all your needs taken care of as a, like a space brain. And you can communicate way faster and you can teleport your agency in the world and delegate it to humanoid bots. And by the way, your brain can survive much longer than your body can. Most people die of suffocation because they, eventually the skeleton fails them. You know, my grandma was like 94 and she was as sharp as a whistle, but her skeleton ultimately failed her. So, you know, there's no point trying to extend the life of your skeleton. Just extend the life of your brain and putting it into a static environment. And you can live to 200 years, 300 years, if you just take your brain outside your body and do it as early as possible. So that's coming.

• 1:09:56Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So I invested in a company a while ago that does, they had a brain freezing technology.

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:10:02Anthony Pompliano?

  And basically in a very simplistic description, at the point of death, they would take cryogenic freezing technology through oxygen, kind of, you know, insertion. They would put it, they would try to freeze your brain, was the general idea. They did very small animals and eventually they'd worked their way up to the human brain. And the idea basically is that you could freeze the brain with all the synapse connections and everything. And then you could download the information, you could put it in a computer. And if we had Einstein's brain, wouldn't it be amazing if we could feed it today's problems and see, you know, do we get any outputs? So the way I think about that is the brain didn't leave the body, the, you know, kind of connectivity, the information, et cetera, was able to be extracted from the brain.

• 1:10:47Anthony Pompliano?

  What you just said, which you said very kind of nonchalantly, sounds fucking insane. Which is, you said to take the brain out of the body.

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:10:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Then to have a map of the human skeleton.

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  That's to remap your spinal cord.

• 1:11:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep, to remap it.

• 1:11:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:06Anthony Pompliano?

  And create almost like a technological, kind of body double, right, for, for simple descriptions.

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  It'll be your brain.

• 1:11:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And then take your brain, connect the, now what is a silicon machine body double with your brain. Shoot it into space.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:25Anthony Pompliano?

  And live for 300 years.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:11:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. You're gonna have to explain the brain being connected to the machine. Brain power goes, consciousness goes with the brain.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:11:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Into this new body.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:11:42Anthony Pompliano?

  How feasible do you think that is?

• 1:11:44Speaker 02

  Oh, it's very feasible. Okay. I mean, Elon Musk right now is inserting Neuralink into your brain and trying to like sense synaptic connections. But your brain functions as a, as like a low key of control, low key of intelligence. A lot of its bandwidth is actually consumed, like I said, like wiggling your toes and whatnot. By remapping your spinal cord, like each, you have like a billion neurons with analog sensor fidelity. You could remap a billion channels of information onto a variety of senses, sense magnetic fields, sense more a part of the EMF spectrum, more parts of the universe. You know, the fact that we can only see from like 10 centimeters out to like, uh, you know, they're a star, but imagine like your, your iPhone can sense the universe in much greater precision than you can.

• 1:12:22Speaker 02

  So imagine taking like a, uh, like a silicon sensor, like an iPhone and remapping that onto the bit of neurons that control wiggle your toes. And now you can, you have to retrain your brain, uh, but you can respond to that stimulation. There's a, the story of a guy who was wearing a wifi suit. So it would like sense wifi fields and like, uh, like give him proper reception input around his body. So he would have this kind of sixth sense where he could sense the wifi fields just from his proper receptions. So you can easily remap your sensory, uh, input channels.

• 1:12:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Why was he doing that?

• 1:12:54Speaker 02

  Oh, just fun, but it's a perfect point that your, your brain is incredibly elastic. And like most of it right now is just managing your skeletons and skeletons is just a vehicle to give you agency. So imagine we're just replacing that vehicle and replacing your sensor input channels and your output channels.

• 1:13:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Sure, like Brian Johnson, who is

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  Incorrect. Brian, yeah.

• 1:13:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  Brian Johnson's doing the wrong thing. Brian Johnson is trying to keep his skeleton around.

• 1:13:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Say that again, Brian Johnson's what?

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Brian Johnson is trying to keep his skeleton around, but he's gonna, he's gonna get an extra 10 years out of his life, but he's not gonna get an extra 200. The way you get an extra 200 years out of your life is take your brain out of your body, out of a very toxic environment. So this environment you live in is extremely toxic to your brain. It's, your brain is trying to do everything it can to protect you from those toxins. You got like this, this like skull, which is like, you know, 10 centimeters thick of like bone. You know, you've got this blood brain barrier that's trying to keep the toxins away from, you know, putting toxins in your brain. You've got like layers upon layers of your body shielding itself from the universe, like this skin is just, you know, trying to Keep you away from toxins. So this is a highly toxic environment. Why don't you just put yourself in a gold plated pod orbiting in space and remove all those toxins?

• 1:13:59Speaker 02

  And now your brain, I mean, the fact that you drink alcohol every day is like it kills your brain slowly. You should, you should immediately quit drinking alcohol immediately.

• 1:14:05Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't drink.

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  Good. And then that's our ultimate decelerant. And you should go yourself in a very static environment and remove all the toxins. You'll easily live to 200 now. By the way, the early, if I roll out this technology and offered an 85, 90 year old man, the option to either die or be shot in space, you would choose the shoot in space option.

• 1:14:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  All right. And then the longer you could live for as a brain, it was dependent on how younger you did it. So then this idea that we, we do need to contribute genetically and memetically to humanity repositories. So you should be born, accelerate your adoption of the medic information as rapidly as possible. And our schooling system, education system is wholly insuitable for this. And that needs to be reimagined. And then you should, at 30 years old, when you hit reproductive capacity, swap out your skeleton with a silicon one and be shot in space where you have much higher bandwidth, lower latency.

• 1:14:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Why do you have to go to space?

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  To remove the toxins.

• 1:15:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  Get out of a toxin.

• 1:15:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Could, um, you know, Brett Adcock is building Figure, Elon's building the Tesla, um, bots. Could we just take our brains and put them into those here on earth or?

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  No, you're thinking about the wrong problem. Like the silicon machines are not here to serve us. The silicon machines are here to explore the universe and upgrade our memetic repositories. This is like an interim field. Like, I mean, the Tesla bot is trying to navigate a, a, a planet that's, that's basically wholly unsuitable for the biological machine. Like fundamentally, you would do much better living in a gold plated pods with solar panels, orbiting the earth for 300 years. So let's just get straight to that, just straight to the point like we're.

• 1:15:40Anthony Pompliano?

  But this is if you're optimizing for living for 300 years, but that's gotta be a shitty life.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  No, you had amazing life. You better, you better live and eat, you gotta live and do anything. You better live on Mars, live on the moon. You just delegate your sensory channels. Like you delegate your output, your agency, you teleport your memory. Like what you see from the universe is just your perception of it. Right. And but where you get that information is irrelevant. You can get that information. Like when I video call my wife, like I'm getting sensory information. That's like fourteen thousand kilometers away. Oh, so longer, uh, but it doesn't matter. It feels like she's in the room with me. So like you could be orbiting space and but still feel like you're in the room and like have sensory input from anywhere in the universe. Well, limited by the speed of light. So suddenly, instead of you being limited by the speed of a, an Airbus, uh, A three fifty or, you know, your ability to run around and catch an Uber, you're now limited by the speed of light.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  It's where you can go in the universe.

• 1:16:31Anthony Pompliano?

  So this, this, um, cracks me up because, uh, if you think of what the average person finds enjoyment in, they find enjoyment in, um,

• 1:16:41Anthony Pompliano?

  some sort of stimulants, caffeine, nicotine, uh, et cetera. They find, uh, it in some sort of depressant, alcohol, et cetera. Uh, they find it in, uh, sex, they find it in, uh, relationships and they find it in food. Again, very simplistic, but those are five things that the average person, uh, would like. If you take your, their brain out of their body and you put it into this, uh, silicone kind of remapped, you know, uh, body double. None of those things.

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  Will exist ten times, a much greater ten times amplification.

• 1:17:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:17:14Speaker 02

  You had to download any drug recipe you want and have trips in space. Like if that's your thing, right? Uh, it's just, uh, a drug is just an arrangement of atoms that can be synthesized on demand. And all those things that you just described were stimulations of your input channels.

• 1:17:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Correct.

• 1:17:28Speaker 02

  So you could achieve that with much greater precision and depth and, uh, acuity in, in space where you literally remap every single channel.

• 1:17:36Anthony Pompliano?

  You just press a button on the computer or something.

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  Think about what you want and like you can be stimulated. But remember, like our actual, but our actual purpose is not sit around in a consumption death spiral. Like if you're in a consumption death spiral and you're looking for just consuming things, you're actually never going to do anything. You're, you're, you're zombify yourself and so many, ninety percent of humanity are in these consumption death spirals where they actually don't recognize their purpose. Is to create highly potent memes, you know, to contribute to the genes and memes, the genes and means. And so high, high agency people recognize that their value, their purpose is genes and means. And you can still do all that in, in this kind of like future reality I just described to you. Uh, with, but with much greater uh, agency, much greater intelligence output, much greater ability to perceive the universe.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  And you can delegate your, your, your agency to these, to any bot you want. You can be here in the world. Uh, in, in the universe, really, it's just limited to your imagination. So like, that's the future to get optimistic about. And it's the highest.

• 1:18:31Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm fucking, I'm there. I love it. I'm in, I'm in. Uh, I'm not gonna get shot to space with just my brain at thirty. Might, might we be the guy who wastes eighty, but yeah, I'm in. I'm good to go. Where can we send people to find you on Twitter?

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  Just JP Thor. Um, uh, yeah, I like I said, I was only two months old. I'm growing my profile, uh, but I.

• 1:18:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Your people are very passionate.

• 1:18:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:50Anthony Pompliano?

  When, when they figured out you were coming in here, I started getting overwhelmed.

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  No, so the reason is I, I spent six years to, I've never rug pulled, I've never grifted, I've stolen money. I've never like disowned my community and, and value extracted from them. I've always tried to like, uh, build a community where we move towards a common goal because this is a long-term process. So I have extremely good rapport with my community and the people around me because I've, I've, you know, I've tried to respect them and, and work with them. Uh, at on peer level because I fundamentally believe that, uh, you as a self-sovereign biological machine that expresses your own agency. You cannot be oppressed and controlled. You can only be campaigned. There's no one that can force you to do anything. You can only be campaigned through mimetic intelligence. Like me right now, trying to campaign you. And so I've treated everyone with this kind of peer-to-peer respect.

• 1:19:36Speaker 02

  And so there's like a big community that, that supports me and I'm in the arena, like the, what I'm about to achieve with this giant roll up and, you know, this vampire attacking and putting all the define notice. You know, is, is, I'm in the arena and there's gonna be a lot of chaos and, and, and inbound and, and cancelling and whatnot. But I'm willing to do it because I look at the universe as an adverse environment and I'm, I'm wholly suitable to get in the arena and tackle it. I'll make a lot of mistakes, but from my first principles, thinking that if you can get in the arena and iterate and, and move fast. And it doesn't matter what the universe throws at you. Like literally, it does not matter. Nothing matters. You just get in the arena and see what happens next and see if you can, it's a game of chess. Like I can't predict your next move. I just have a chessboard and a bunch of pieces and there's millions of billions of permutations that we're about to do.

• 1:20:20Speaker 02

  And so you're going to present to me an adverse condition and I will respond to that to the best I can get my ability.

• 1:20:25Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. We'll definitely do this again in the future.