#1347 Zac Townsend | Bitcoin Life Insurance Is Coming Fast!

Zac Townsend is the Co-Founder & CEO of Meanwhile, the world’s first bitcoin denominated life insurance company. In this conversation, we talk about traditional life insurance, protection, tax advantages, opportunities, and what Zac is building at Meanwhile using bitcoin to eliminate risk. ======================= In this podcast, we dive into the revolutionary concept of PropyKeys, an application that allows anyone to mint home addresses all over the world on blockchain. PropyKeys.com is a part of the Propy ecosystem, that has a grand mission to make homeownership more affordable and user friendly. We will explore the journey of Propy’s founder and how this innovative technology provides benefits for homeowners, and for the real estate industry. Join us as we discuss the Propy’s latest collaborations, including Coinbase, and its new fun project PropyKeys. X (Twitter): @PropyKeys Website: Mint an address at propykeys.com. dApp: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dapp.propy.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ======================= Get the freshest price feeds free for 12 months. Join Supra’s early integration program for zero-cost access to the fastest oracles and dVRF across 50+ blockchains: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://supra.com/pomp⁠⁠⁠⁠. Earn $1,500 by referring Web3 projects to use Supra services. The projects get the fastest services for free, and you earn $1,500 for every referral. Learn more at the link above. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. Today's episode is with Zach Townsend. He's the co-founder and CEO of Meanwhile, the world's first Bitcoin-denominated life insurance company. In this conversation, we talk about traditional life insurance, what it is, how it works, and what are some of the deficiencies? And then we get into things around tax advantages

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  and the opportunities with a Bitcoin-denominated life insurance company. And what is Zach building at Meanwhile? How is he using Bitcoin? How is he eliminating risk? And where exactly will this fit into the insurance landscape? This conversation is fascinating. This product is not something I'd ever heard about before. So I'm super excited for you all to listen to this. Here is my conversation with Zach Townsend.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Propy. Imagine a world where you could buy and sell your home, wallet to wallet. With Prop Keys, you can mint your home address and upgrade it to a real-world asset. This not only protects your home's title from fraud, but when you are ready to move, you could sell it through an NFT auction, as well as through the traditional way. There's optionality here. Propy Keys is part of the Propy ecosystem. Their mission is to make home ownership more efficient, affordable, and user-friendly. Propy Keys is a fun entry point to placing title on the blockchain. Now, anyone can start their on-chain journey by minting home addresses via Propy Keys and staking them for profit until they are ready to sell their home. Visit propykeys.com to learn more. Again, that's propykeys.com to learn more.

• 2:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Supra. If you're building anything in Web3 or crypto, you likely need Oracles and verifiable randomness, too. Supra is offering the fastest Oracles and DVRF free for 12 months at supra.com/pomp for a limited time. Supra delivers the freshest Oracle price feeds across 50-plus blockchains. Critical price levels or liquidation triggers? Beat your competition to the punch with Supra. It's as good as having the first mover advantage on every price update. Supra is more secure, easier to integrate, and runs on up to 12x lower gas per feed than other Oracles. So you'll want to bank on this 12 months free offer as soon as possible. If you're just listening and know any builders,

• 2:58Anthony Pompliano?

  you can earn $1,500 by letting them know about this deal. They can get the fastest Oracles for free for 12 months, and you get $1,500 for every referral. Visit supra.com/pomp to learn more. That's S-U-P-R-A dot com slash pomp. All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Zach here with me. Zach, I thought a great place to start the conversation is you guys are building the first Bitcoin-denominated, Bitcoin-oriented life insurance policy. And there's all these advantages when you introduce Bitcoin into it. I think the Bitcoin community is going to be super excited about this and really want to leverage the benefit of having Bitcoin life insurance. But before we do that, we've got to understand what life insurance is. So how does traditional life insurance, before Satoshi gets involved?

• 3:43Anthony Pompliano?

  How does it work? And like, why would somebody want life insurance?

• 3:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, actually, life insurance is like the oldest savings product in the world. So the original, like, life insurance product is, you know, you're a sailor in Venice, and you don't know whether your ship's going to go down or not. So all the sailors get together, and they all pay a little bit of premium for protection. And then if, you know, the ship goes down, they, their family was able to bury them appropriately. So that sort of burial insurance was the sort of original life insurance product.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  But you know, it evolves. It's a super interesting. I actually joke that 19th century life insurance is a lot like crypto is today. It was sort of the Wild West. People were walking around selling people life insurance and you know, tenants in New York City. You know, some companies went belly up, turned up their Ponzi schemes. Some companies are really successful. They still exist today 150 years later. But fundamentally, life insurance, like all insurance, is about like risk sharing. So I don't know when I'm going to die. Just a fundamental fact of life. And Pomp, you don't know, and the listener doesn't know.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  And actually, I'm, I'm in my late 30s. I'm very unlikely to die this year.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  But there is a possibility I could. And when you take enough people together, enough, you know, 38-year-old, healthy men and women. When you get to thousands of people, you can actually say, well, statistically likely that two or three of these people are going to die. But you don't know who those two or three people are going to be. So, you know, you get a thousand people together, you all pay $100, only three of you are going to die. Those, you don't know who they are. Those three people die. Now, you know, you have $300,000 split amongst three people who die. Now those three people's family gets $100,000. But that's the original concept of life insurance.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Then what happens over time is that

• 6:01Speaker 02

  the governments, governments around the world, think it's good for people to have protection. It's good for people. And in some cases, like car insurance, they force you to have insurance, right? So we all have to have car insurance. We all have, well, we don't all have to have homeowners insurance, but your mortgage provider insists that you have homeowners insurance. And in the life insurance space, what that ends up meaning is that over the years, the US government, but also, you know, basically every government in the world that has taxes, gives tax advantages to life insurance products because they want people to be incented to appropriately insure themselves. So that ends up being the two big benefits of normal life insurance.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  You have this protection. So I don't know when I'm going to die. It could be today, it could be in 10 years. So we can, you know, share together that risk and I get protected. And the second thing is because protection is considered a good thing, there are tax advantages to life insurance and to annuities. Yeah, I'll pause there. I don't want to give a 30 minute lesson on life insurance. So hopefully that gives you a good sense.

• 7:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Here's what becomes interesting, right? So like, we have this life insurance thing. It's got this really long history as to why people want to have it. Obviously, it continues to work today. And so it's kind of like a sound structure, if you will. What are the risks that are introduced in life insurance, either for the people who are paying in the premiums, or for the companies that are issuing the life insurance, when we have kind of fiat money backing it, right? So how do you identify, okay, why would I even want to have Bitcoin involved in this process whatsoever? And how do we improve the old system, if you will?

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Well, I'm going to sound like every Bitcoiner in the world, which is that, you know, fiat currencies, I think, are inherently unstable. They're inherently inflationary. So you know, you buy a policy today and you're going to get a million dollars in protection or whatever. That, particularly for the product we have, which is called Whole Life, Whole Life lasts your whole life. It's very well named. You know, I think when you're making that sort of commitment to your loved ones that's supposed to last 20, 30, 40, 50 years, you know, fiat currency on a purchasing power basis might not, is going to probably be worth a lot less. It's inherently unstable. I think the easiest way to think about this, actually,

• 8:30Speaker 02

  if you don't want to get too political on the United States, is we see our ultimate vision as there were 57 countries in the world last year that had inflation rates over 10%. And if you're in Argentina and you're middle class or upper middle class and you want to buy insurance, clearly, life insurance that could, again, could last 30 years. The idea of doing it in Argentinian pesos seems crazy, right? Because that currency has failed multiple times in the last 30 years. So the idea that you put it, uh, put your life insurance policy in Argentinian pesos is just sort of, you know, doesn't make any sense. And so this idea of a, you know, permissionless, decentralized, global, um,

• 9:12Speaker 02

  currency that's not backed by the state that's appreciating in purchasing power over time, particularly, I think, over 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. Uh, I think that's really powerful, uh, for people all over the world.

• 9:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, once you introduce Bitcoin into this, uh, if I go and I search on Google, it says meanwhile is a Bitcoin life insurance company or a fund. Uh, the press coverage, all, all this stuff is like Bitcoin life insurance. How does Bitcoin get introduced into this?

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, one of the things we realize is, um, there's a just inherent stability, instability, sorry, if you mix fiat currencies and Bitcoin together. So what we set out to do is to make a company that is entirely in Bitcoin. So we have this subsidiary in Bermuda. Um, let me pause and say Bermuda is a legitimate place to put life insurance companies. Um, it's not the Bahamas, which is where FTX was. Um, if you ever go there, 70% of the economy of Bermuda is, uh, the insurance business. You walk around, it's like Munich Re, Chubb, Swiss Re, um, all, all these big companies are based there. It's a very unusual place.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  And what's nice about Bermuda is that they're serious financial regulators. Um, they have like respect from both the US regulators and the European regulators. Um, but they're also like willing to do innovative things. Um, you know, they've, oh, they've sort of created this whole industry there by being a little bit innovative. So what we did is we created a company in Bermuda and it is on the Bitcoin standard. I think we're the only company in the world this is true. So we state our financials in Bitcoin. We do all our regulatory filings in Bitcoin. We, um, Do our solvency and capital calculations, which are basically like the nuts and bolts of insurance.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  And then people pay us their premiums in Bitcoin and we make promises, those are like eventual claims in Bitcoin. So what's nice about this, because everything's in Bitcoin, because truly for us, one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin. It doesn't matter what, what I like to call the exchange rate of Bitcoin is today or last month or a month from now, or even 10 years from now. Because you, as a user, pay your premiums in Bitcoin, we make promises in Bitcoin. So that all like matches. So I think that's what we mean when we say Bitcoin life insurance is that like everything about it is in Bitcoin and that like takes away this big risk. Now, there's another, maybe you'll.

• 11:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Go ahead.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, there's another perspective, which is like, well, what does that mean for the user? Like, why do I give a shit that it's in Bitcoin? And from the user's perspective, I think we're, we're back to, to really, the two fundamental things, again, like protection and that there is tax advantages because of that protection. So our product is called Whole Life, it lasts your whole life. And because you will eventually die, again, I'm not the bearer of bad news there, then you're going to eventually get a payout. So our product works like you might pay one Bitcoin a year for 10 years. We can do smaller policies, we can do bigger policies. But let's say, just to make the math simple, it's like one Bitcoin a year for 10 years. And then from the moment you pay your first premium, we promise you some fixed amount of Bitcoin,

• 12:34Speaker 02

  like 13 or 15 or 17, it depends on your age and your sex and whether you smoke and how healthy you are and stuff. But, and that's actually like the entire thing is like, you're giving us one a year for 10 years, we promise you 15. That's what the contract says. So that's the protection, right? You drop dead, you get by a bus, your, your kids, your wife, your husband, whomever, your niece, nephew, they get the 15. But again, the other benefit is because governments have tax, put tax benefits around.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Life insurance, what you get is in addition to the protection, we're churning that 10 into 15 by doing, we can talk about that, how we do that. But if you could do the same thing, you would be paying interest income, income tax, maybe capital gains when you like trade in and out of different things. We don't pay any tax, like there's no taxes on that stuff that happens to like churn 10 into 15. And then the third, and again, this is just true of whole life in the United States for everyone, which is that you can borrow out of the policies tax free. And what's cool about that in the case of Bitcoin is if Bitcoin went up to 700,000 or 7 million,

• 13:51Speaker 02

  you could borrow back one of the Bitcoin you put in and you wouldn't owe any capital gains tax between 70,000 and 700,000. So what I like to just say is like, hey, if you're hodling some of your Bitcoin, literally you're like thinking about intergenerational wealth transfer and like, this is a great place to do it. And then particularly if you have a big stack, but even if you have a little stack, if you ever do need that liquidity, then the policy is actually a great place to do it because you won't owe capital gains tax.

• 14:20Anthony Pompliano?

  So how much of life insurance is actually not about the life insurance, but it is taxes and like intergenerational wealth transfer? Like, you know, and whether that's in the kind of fiat world or in this Bitcoin world? Like, you know, put me in the shoes of somebody who is buying life insurance policies. What are they thinking about? Is it just, hey, I want people to have money when I die? Or are these other things more dominant in that decision making?

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it really depends on how rich you are and sort of where you are in that spectrum. So I'll actually take myself, like I have some term life. It's called term life because it lasts a certain term. So it might be like 20 years. That's whole life, last your whole life, term life lasts 20 years or some term. And the reason I have term life is, you know, I have some mortgages and if I drop debt and the ratios tend to be very high because you're very unlikely to die.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  The next 20 years, if you're younger. So I have that to protect literally my family and my wife in the sense that they could pay off the mortgages. Like, that's how I thought about how much term life I have. I have my Bitcoin life insurance policy for my company. Happy to say I put basically all my Bitcoin into a life insurance policy. I'm eating my own dog food in that sense. That's more of an intergenerational investment. And what you'll see for a lot of people is as you you make a little bit like you have like real protection when you're you know, like normal middle class, you might start to have some of these investment products.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  But then, you know, when you get, I don't know, have $10 million in net worth, it flips and definitely becomes about estate planning, tax planning. There's all sorts of other styles of policies that aren't worth getting into here where they're like investment accounts, but they can be bigger and all this crazy stuff that people have figured out. So I'd say a lot of big like big policies are definitely for tax planning. And then everything in between, we actually, we don't have an annuity product yet, but you can think of an annuity as the in like the inverse of life insurance. So life insurance is about what happens to your family if you die before you're supposed to.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  An annuity in some ways is what happens to your family if you live longer than you're supposed to. Right? It's supposed to like keep giving you like monthly income for the rest of your life. And those are basically like they're like 401ks in that they compound tax free. So often, if you've matched out your IRA, your 401k, then like next thing you should buy is an annuity.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  So there's always this protection element, but definitely as your finances become a little more complicated, life insurance is increasingly used for tax and state planning.

• 17:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk to me about custody, about regulation, like all the things that go into having a regulated product that obviously is using Bitcoin, not dollars. And I'm sure there's tons of considerations there. So like, what are the things that you had to do that maybe other people don't have to do? And then how are you solving or mitigating some of those risks?

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, let me just start with regulation. We are a fully fledged operational life insurance company. And that, you know, we have, man, we have an actuarial consultant, we have an approved actuary, we have an internal auditor, we have an external auditor, we have this, all this, like this cornucopia of service providers. And then we had to, basically, we spent all of 2022 putting together a business plan. And then all 2023, like operationalizing that business plan. And we just started selling policies, basically the very end of last year,

• 18:16Speaker 02

  the start of this year. And what does that mean? It means like, I have an independent board in Bermuda that has an former audit partner from a big four and a life actuary. And so we have these independent board directors. We have a enterprise risk management framework. We have all these policies and controls and key risk indicator, like, yeah, I mean, and then we have, we, you know, have to do all the actuarial math. You have to figure out what are called reserves, which is like when every time you pay a premium, we have to put a certain amount of aside, we have to reserve that to pay a future claims. We have to post capital, like we have to put our own Bitcoin up to.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  To to support any variations and any of these risks that we're talking about. So there's this huge amount of work and we built all this technology from scratch. And that's, you know, that's, that's a big, that itself is a huge thing. And then on custody, we, for all our American clients, we use Anchorage. We, you know, self custody, we just think that, that, that actually can make sense. But like, I don't know, if you're familiar with Anchorage Digital, basically every, six of the eight people

• 19:42Speaker 02

  who work for the company have to biometrically approve with an independent iPhone any movements of Bitcoin. And we really, really believe they're super secure. But then what you're touching on is, I just gave a whole speech about, you know, a whole long narrative about all the life insurance and insurance stuff. But then we have all this crypto stuff and that ends up being Anchorage. We have to do chain analysis. We have a lot of extra, not really from the user's perspective, but from our perspective, like AML, any money laundering, any terrorist financing. I'm afraid to say, I'm sure some of your listeners don't like this.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  We do have to KYCU if we're going to, going to write a life insurance for you. So anyway, there's all that infrastructure and really that's protection for the, for, for the users. Like we have a lot of oversight and independent board, the regulator, like I'm talking, I literally have a conversation with our regulator every month.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  And, you know, I think when we started this company, we sat down and we said, and it was counterintuitive in January 2022, you know, we think that the value in crypto is going to come from people who can deal with all the regulation. That doesn't mean that all the regulation is fair. It doesn't mean particularly the SEC is doing things that I love. But I think if you're going to build a financial institution that people are going to trust, and particularly one that we're asking them to trust us for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. We, you know, went through all the work I just talked about.

• 21:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, when we start to think about how this plays out over a long period of time, life insurance naturally is a long period of time, right? Like, I might buy it in my 30s or 40s, and it may not actually kind of come to fruition until my 60s, 70s, 80s. So how do you think about internally, like, succession planning? How do you think about, you know, kind of the continuity of an organization of technology? Like, the longer the timeline, the more complex maybe some of that stuff gets. And right now, I feel like you're starting out building the foundation. And so I'm sure that there's decisions you're making where you're like, hey, this is not something where we want to be successful for a year. We need to be successful here for decades to come. And so how does that change some of the design decisions or technologies that you're using?

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Well, let me answer that two different ways. Just like culturally, I actually talk a lot about long-termism being a value that we have. And partially, that means everything I just said. Like, we go through all this regulatory and moral. But you're absolutely right. Like, day to day, I...

• 22:34Speaker 02

  The only way, I mean, let me put it selfishly. If I want to build a big business, because I will be successful if we build a big business. And the way that this business does not end up big is actually us making stupid, short-term mistakes. Like, you know, we try to get yield up, we get yield on Bitcoin. And that's part of like turning 10 into 15. We're super careful. We, and I know BlockFi, Genesis, like, they all say they have, they had an investment committee, and we have an investment committee. We have an investment policy, an underwriting manual, and a credit manager, blah, blah. But literally, actually, like, we had a meeting last Friday, and we just rejected every investment opportunity that the team brought to us. Because for my co-founder and I in particular,

• 23:19Speaker 02

  the only way this company isn't going to work... Is if we do something stupid like that. And insurance companies make promises for the long term, but then they also like compound over time. And the longer we exist, the bigger we'll be. And we just think it's inevitable that there's a Bitcoin economy. We think it's inevitable that that Bitcoin economy will have big financial institutions. And we think it's inevitable that one of those financial institutions will be a life insurer. So I think that's super important culturally. On a technology perspective. Yeah, Ken, you know, don't tell some of my VCs this, but like, yeah, we're deliberately slower on some things than

• 24:02Speaker 02

  than we could be if we were willing to do different things. So like, we built a policy administration system that had like auditability as like a first order concern so that we can see every, whenever anyone views any data, you know, we're logging it. You, anytime any data's changed, we're logging it and sort of in a pen only basis. Anytime, you know, we deviate from an underwriting standard, you know, we're keeping track of it. And sometimes actually, you know, a user will find, you know, a UI bug. And then we don't, we don't fix it in five minutes. It takes five hours, you know, just like a little bit longer than it should per a technology company.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  But that's because exactly to your point, we made all of these technological and design decisions. You know, we stored data about our users that we may just not need to have for 50 more years. And that just creates like a completely different dynamic of like, you can't just like throw it in S3. Like we have to think about like, how is that stored for the long term? How do we make sure that people in our company even like can't just randomly access it? So I, I, I think you're absolutely right. And last thing I'll say is just fundamentally, you know, I get. Invited on, uh, not really podcast, but like, uh, shows and stuff and people like,

• 25:30Speaker 02

  what's going to happen to the price of Bitcoin tomorrow or next month? And what I say is, you know, I specifically built a company that's making the bet that Bitcoin will be worth more in 10 years or 20 years or 30 years, because I have no idea if Bitcoin is going to be more in 10 days or 20 days or 30 days. That's just not what I'm good at. Like, I think, um, if I was good at the other thing, I'd probably be doing that. But once you can make a lot of money much faster, uh, but I think for my co-founder and I, we're very much in this mode of, we believe in this thing of Bitcoin and the Bitcoin standard and the Bitcoin economy, uh, and we're making like a lifetime bet on that.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  And we think our users should too.

• 26:16Anthony Pompliano?

  That, um, that, that makes a lot of sense to me. Then talk a little bit about, uh, the investors that you raised money from. You, uh, if I remember correctly, Sam Altman, Lockheed Groome, like some very well-known, very good investors. What are they betting on? Are they betting on you and your team? Are they betting on Bitcoin? Is it like life insurance? You know, what, what's kind of the thesis you think from there?

• 26:35Speaker 02

  I don't think, uh, particularly the two folks you mentioned, I don't think they're animated by life insurance. Um, uh, and actually like they're not huge crypto investors. We do have some great crypto, like Stillmarks invested in, like, you know, them, they're a Bitcoin, uh, firm. Um, we also have like Gradient, which goes AI fund. You know, fundamentally, uh, actually if we rewound all the way to like pretty early in our conversation, when I mentioned like, the, what we talk about is like, we want to build the world's largest life insurance company. That just sounds crazy, maybe, but that's our ambition. Our ambition is, again, 57 countries in the world with inflation rates over 10%.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  The, much of the world is underinsured, um, from our protection basis, you know, even putting aside the tax benefits. Um, so we want to build a full suite of, uh, life insurance products that are denominated in Bitcoin. And we think that makes a lot of sense for anyone in the world who thinks there's inflation risk or regime risk or, or currency risk. And that we're the only ones right now who can do it. We're like, we're the only ones who can do Bitcoin in life insurance land and we're the only life insurer in Bitcoin land.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  And those two things combined, we believe, and we've convinced a few people, some good investors believe, is like a once in a lifetime opportunity to build a giant global, you know, important financial institution because all the life insurers that you've ever heard of, New York Life, MetLife, Northwestern Mutual, Mas Mutual, you know, not only were that, did they exist when my like grandparents were born, they, um, they were already a hundred years old and thriving. Um, and one of the reasons that is because it just like persists, it's the same thing over and over again.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  So we see Bitcoin and crypto more generally as this like generational opportunity where the world's changing. Like a new economy is being born from nothing. And we believe that's going to be a giant global economy. And that's the pitch that I think got those people interested, not, you know, whether they're longer or Bitcoin or not, or whether they believe in insurance, just the scope of like, we want to build a giant institution that impacts. You know, I like to say, I want to have a billion users. Um, and that's usually crazy for a financial institution, but I think that when you combine like Bitcoin and financial institution together, like it's a generational opportunity to do that.

• 29:18Anthony Pompliano?

  What is the biggest thing that keeps you up, uh, at night right now? So you're building this thing. It's super exciting. I think it's awesome. I think a lot of people are going to think it's awesome. Uh, there's risk, right? But like, what is the thing that keeps you awake at night that you're like, we have to, you know, kill this or we have to get this right?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, the thing that keeps me up at night is honestly, um, Look, I think as a founder, I live in the NCO, you like live in these two different worlds all the time. And one is like this long-term visionary world that I just talked about, which is like, I really believe that we have built something unique and important. And I look out 10 years and I think we're going to be huge. On the other hand, um, my day-to-day is um, talking, literally, we talk, I talk to every, me or one of my colleagues talks to every single potential user. We're explaining life insurance to them. It's a big decision about like literally sending us Bitcoin, which is like, uh, you know,

• 30:20Speaker 02

  obviously very uncomfortable um, for a lot of people. And you know, we're really successful in that, but it takes time. You take, you know, you have to fill out a life insurance application. Like, no one wants to sit down and tell us whether they have cancer or not, but like you have to do that, right? Like just get through the process. So I think uh, what keeps me up at night is like these day-to-day things, like, you know, our uh, uh, we spend a little too much money on um, that whole cornucopia of service providers, I said, knives like um, we uh, every individual user wants to have like one extra phone call about um,

• 30:59Speaker 02

  uh, you know, some element of policy. And it's all, it's all fine and great, but I'm definitely like in the day-to-day of building a business and um, getting more users and like paying the bills and stuff. Um, that's what keeps me up at night.

• 31:14Anthony Pompliano?

  That makes uh, that makes a ton of sense.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  Usually I wake up and I work more. So I'm like, well, you know, like, oh, I woke up at three, like, well, this is three extra hours of work before my kids wake up.

• 31:24Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Where can we send people to find you on the internet? Where can we send them to find more information about the company? And then leave us with a kind of, you know, the, the 30 seconds on if somebody's interested in life insurance and Bitcoin, why you guys potentially could be a good option for them.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Perfect. So we're available at meanwhile dot BM, but also meanwhile.com redirects there. I think our Twitter handles Meanwhile Life. I'm Z Townsend on Twitter. And so that's the way to find us, meanwhile.com. I, the simple pitch I usually make is, do you have some Bitcoin that you want to hold forever and do you hate taxes? Come talk to me. I mean, that's, and do you, but I think more fundamentally, like what I, I've said, I guess in short summary, we,

• 32:22Speaker 02

  we really believe in Bitcoin, we believe in a Bitcoin economy, and we think a lot of people do too. And we think there's no better way to protect your, your loved ones long-term than Bitcoin life insurance. And, you know, we would love to talk to you about the nitty gritty details.

• 32:42Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a pretty strong pitch there, Zach. Thank you so much for doing this. We'll definitely do it again in the future.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Great. Thanks, Bob.