#1334 Mike Novogratz | Billionaire Reveals Why Bitcoin Keeps Going Up

Mike Novogratz is the Founder & CEO of Galaxy Digital. This conversation was recorded at Bitcoin Investor Day in New York. In this conversation, we talk about the macro environment, bitcoin, political overlay, regulation, what Galaxy is doing, and how Mike sees the next couple months playing out. ======================= Base is making it their mission to bring a billion people onchain. But what exactly is Base? It's an Ethereum L2 offering a seamless experience for both builders and users. With near-zero gas fees and rapid transaction speeds, Base is shaping the future of the onchain world. Base is a canvas for everyone, with hundreds of apps in the Base ecosystem, whether you're an emerging creator, a seasoned developer, or someone exploring the onchain space for the first time, Base is designed to bring your ideas to life. So, if you're looking for a platform where the future of onchain is being built daily, Base is your destination. Join in and make onchain the next online. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠base.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and follow along on Twitter at @BuildOnBase to see cool things to do onchain, everyday. ======================= In this podcast, we dive into the revolutionary concept of PropyKeys, an application that allows anyone to mint home addresses all over the world on blockchain. PropyKeys.com is a part of the Propy ecosystem, that has a grand mission to make homeownership more affordable and user friendly. We will explore the journey of Propy’s founder and how this innovative technology provides benefits for homeowners, and for the real estate industry. Join us as we discuss the Propy’s latest collaborations, including Coinbase, and its new fun project PropyKeys. X (Twitter): @PropyKeys Website: Mint an address at propykeys.com. dApp: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dapp.propy.com/⁠⁠⁠ ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. Today's episode is with Mike Novogratz. Mike is a billionaire. He's the founder and CEO of Galaxy, and he is one of the most famous macro traders in the world. This conversation was recorded at Bitcoin Investor Day. It was an annual meeting for sophisticated Wall

• 0:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Street investors who are interested in Bitcoin. Mike led the day off, and he did not disappoint. We talked about the macro environment. We talked about Bitcoin. We talked about the political overlay, regulation, what Galaxy is doing, and how Mike sees the next couple of months playing out. Mike always has interesting, unique thoughts. I learn something every time I talk to him, and this conversation was no different. I am very excited for you all to listen to my conversation with Mike Novogratz.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Base. Base is making it their mission to bring a billion people on-chain. What exactly is Base? It's a layer-two offering, a seamless experience for both builders and users. With near-zero gas fees and rapid transaction speeds, Base is shaping the future of the on-chain world. Base is a canvas for everyone with hundreds of apps in the ecosystem, whether you're an emerging creator, a seasoned developer, or someone exploring the on-chain space for the first time. Base is designed to bring your ideas to life. So if you're looking for a platform where the future of on-chain is being built daily, Base is your destination. Join in and make on-chain the next online. Learn more at base.org, or follow along on Twitter at BuildOnBase. Again, that's at

• 2:22Anthony Pompliano?

  BuildOnBase, to see cool things to do on-chain every single day.

• 2:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Propy. Imagine a world where you could buy and sell your home wallet to wallet. With Prop Keys, you can mint your home address and upgrade it to a real world asset. This not only protects your home's title from fraud, but when you are ready to move, you could sell it through an NFT auction as well as through the traditional way. There's optionality here. Propy Keys is part of the Propy ecosystem. Their mission is to make home ownership more efficient, affordable, and user-friendly. Propy Keys is a fun entry point to placing title on the blockchain. Now, anyone can start their on-chain journey by minting home addresses via Propy Keys and staking them for profit until they are ready to sell their home. Visit propykeys.com to learn more. Again, that's propykeys.com to learn more.

• 3:12Anthony Pompliano?

  We have Mike Novogratz. He's upset that I made him sit on the sidelines for five minutes while I did that little talk. But Mike is the founder and CEO of Galaxy. They have a very, very big business, publicly traded company in Canada, hopefully to be publicly traded in the US soon. And I'm excited to talk to Mike, so Mike, come on up.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  Thank you, Anthony. Good morning, everybody.

• 3:44Anthony Pompliano?

  I thought a great place to start our conversation is you've been investing for a while. You have a lot of experience. You have traded currencies, you've traded macro, you've traded, I'm going to guess, almost every asset class in the world. You've been very early to Bitcoin and crypto. Today, what are the similarities to some of the other things that you've seen in terms of allocating to this asset? And why spend so much time building an asset management firm and kind of Galaxy in the form that it is, rather than sit at home with your Bitcoin and just watch the price go up?

• 4:22Speaker 02

  That's a great question. Let me get to the first one. Listen, Bitcoin is a macro asset. Like, what got me into Bitcoin in 2013, when it was trading at 98 bucks, was somebody called me and said, "Look into this thing." And I was like, hmm, macro asset. And I was a macro trader. At that point, the story was inflation was coming, right? We had 2012, the European financial crises, and everybody was worried about inflation. It's funny how the consensus can be wrong sometimes. Paul Singer, anyone who knows Paul Singer, he might be one of the greatest investors of the last 30 years, runs Elliott Advisors, tough son of a bitch. He took an ad out in the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times,

• 5:05Speaker 02

  wanting Ben Bernanke, the chairman of the Fed, to go to jail for what he was doing with QE2. Not kidding. And it was signed by 50 really intelligent people. They were so worried about inflation. And so that's why I thought, oh, you buy it on Bitcoin, it's got an inflation hedge. China was buying it. There were a lot of people that had lost faith in governments, right, post-financial crises. And so I was like, macro asset, buy some. And I remember looking at the chart and saying, this thing's going to go to 1,000. And sure enough, it went to 1,000. Matter of fact, I was on the cover of the FT, the only time I've ever been on the cover of the Financial Times. Where I was at a conference like this, I didn't know the press was there. And I said, oh, Bitcoin's going to go up because this, this, and this, it's going to go to 1,000.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  And August 2013, you can find it, there I am. And then it went all the way back down. But I got hooked with this idea that, and you talked about this, it was the first asset that started from the little people, right? It wasn't an institutional asset where at the end, the taxi cab driver buys it and it's time to sell. It was a global revolution, and it was the first global asset, right? In 2017, when we had that great bubble, that was fun, right? It was more of an Ethereum-led ICO, Bitcoin to 20,000. I remember saying over and over, like, this is the people's revolution, right?

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Mr. and Mrs. Watanabe in Japan, Mr. and Mrs. Kim in Korea, people in India, in Africa, in Nigeria, all over the place, participating. There are no global markets, really, right? Gold is a global market. But in the 1999 tech bubble, that was a US bubble.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Right, there was a few people that participated in and outside, but broadly Japanese people by Japanese bonds. Right, and so here's the first global asset. And it was, you know, people driven. And so I started this way, way early. This tagline, "The herd is coming." And, you know, boy, did I feel silly for years. I was talking about the institutional herd. Right, I was one of the first institutional guys. Me, Dan Moorhead, there were a few of us to start telling the Bitcoin story to institutions. And most of them just said, "Oh, that's really interesting." Close. A few intrepid, you know, you guys had Fairfax County, you know, got in early, but very few institutions did.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  And so I look back, if I made a mistake in my Bitcoin journey, it was probably building an institutional business when I should have started with retail. Because it really was a people's business. Let me ask you this, answer the second question. Why did I start a damn company instead of just be a fund manager or manage my own money? Because it's so much easier to manage your own money, you own Bitcoin, Ethereum. I think the way you stay young in life is work with young people and learn new things. And while I'd been a macro investor my whole life, I wasn't a venture investor. I'd made a couple of venture investments. And you can't be in crypto without being venture. Right, Pom has become a great venture investor

• 8:18Speaker 02

  from being kind of a, you know, media celebrity. Now he's a better venture investor than he is a media celebrity. Right, crypto is about venture and macro. It's this weird hybrid. So I got to learn a new business venture, and I got to work with young people. And my third box I needed to check to go back into the, to the arena was that I needed to think I had something to add. And You know, Wall Street beats you up and wrings you out and slaps you in the face over 25 years, but you'd like to think you gained some wisdom. And most of the crypto community was young, at times naive, full of big ideas, sometimes silly. And I thought I had some

• 9:00Speaker 02

  role to play in trying to bring some wisdom to this community and trying to get the older, stodgy crypto institutional community to understand it. And so it checked all my boxes.

• 9:14Anthony Pompliano?

  So the hurt is coming. I think now we can say the hurt is here. Talk a little bit as to institutions that are actually participating in the space. Obviously ETFs are a big part of the conversation. But how do you think about what institutions have done so far? And what should we expect them to do over the next couple of years?

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, listen, we should all like give Larry Fink a standing ovation. You know, and there was a whole army of people that orange pilled him. One day someone will write the book, The Orange Pilling of Larry Fink. Right? He was a Bitcoin skeptic and he realized, wait a minute, these guys aren't crazy. That is the process of how Bitcoin evolves. Every one of you has a responsibility in some way to do what you can for the community. Like, all I can do is sell in life. And so my responsibility has not been coding, it's been selling, trying to convince people why this makes sense. Larry has a far bigger

• 10:10Speaker 02

  platform than I'll ever have. And, you know, I thank the guys that got him to see. I think that's staggeringly important. BlackRock's the largest asset manager in the world. He's one of the most recognized thinkers. But it's now not just Bitcoin and the ETF, right? They announced this week they're filing with the S V C to do a tokenize the digital assets fund. So what are they going to tokenize? I mean, Larry said it, they're going to try to tokenize money market funds. And well, that would be revolutionary, right? Think about it right now. Stablecoins don't pay interest. The dollar doesn't pay interest. Anyone have a dollar in your pocket? No interest. Put it in the bank, it makes five and a half percent.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Well, actually, I put it in the bank at JP Morgan, it makes zero. But you can get five and a half percent in a money market fund, but in your pocket, it makes zero. So if we can start tokenizing, I don't think they'll get that through, but that's what they're going to push. And so you're going to see, not in the next three months, but in the next three years, assets get tokenized, minority stakes in sports teams, funds, real estate, maybe. And so I would tell you that every bank, every big bank has teams working like crazy on this idea. Because they're scared. If we move to a tokenized world, Goldman Sachs better be in it, Citibank better be in it, Bank of New York better be in it, State Street better be in it.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  And so there's a lot of activity in institutions around that piece. There's a lot of activity around, okay, Bitcoin's here, the ETF is here. It had a greater start than any ETF in history by a quantum. I tweeted this, the American people just voted, right? They voted, they like crypto, they like Bitcoin, they like digital assets. And so bank CEOs, bank boards, Congress has to take note.

• 12:09Anthony Pompliano?

  So you've had some tussles on the regulatory front. You sometimes tweet some things and I say, okay. You also like to talk about politics. So how does Bitcoin fit into those two conversations, right? In terms of the regulatory conversation, you all are in Canada. I think that you'd like to come to the US. What's stopping that? And then how does Bitcoin play into an election year where politicians, some seem very excited about it, but others feel, you know, the people on the internet are stupid?

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good question. AI should tweet less.

• 12:46Anthony Pompliano?

  That's true for all of us.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  The, you know, there's this interesting tension. The crypto community is young and fun and full of memes and, and, and so you want to participate in it. And when you run a regulated company, you gotta be very careful because the amount of scrutiny that Galaxy and I'm sure Coinbase and everyone else gets is Forex what we got when we were hedge funds. And so even participating in meme coins, I, I, I don't as much as I'd want to because I just fear if I like tweet, "God, I love Dog with Hat" like Arthur Hayes does, I will literally be investigated two days later by the CFDC. And so we, we hold ourselves to a different standard and we've

• 13:34Speaker 02

  learned that as the process goes. And I'm not knocking Arthur, I love the guy. And I love Dog with Hat, just the spirit of it. The Bitcoin got through the gauntlet. It is now a non-asset. It doesn't need to be regulated by the SEC. And, and so anything associated with Bitcoin, like Bitcoin miners trade publicly and you can still get through the SEC if you just do Bitcoin. It appears Gensler and his SEC has drawn the line with Ethereum.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  And it's a little ironic. He spoke about Ethereum at a conference Galaxy hosted four and five months before he took the job at the SEC when he specifically said it is not a security. Right? Since he's been there, and this is my supposition, I don't know if it's true, I think if you allow Ethereum to not be a security...

• 14:38Speaker 02

  It's a slippery slope. What does that mean for Cardano, or Polkadot, or any one of the other, you know, Level 2s, or sidechains, or basechains, or, like, what is the test? If you let one. And so, it feels they've drawn this line between proof of work and proof of stake. And I don't think that changes until the SEC changes. I think the SEC will change, no matter who wins the election, Democrats or Republicans. If it's a Republican, I think you'll get much faster pro-crypto changes than if it's a Democrat. You know,

• 15:20Speaker 02

  the Democratic thing, and I'm a Democrat, I raise my hand, has driven me insane. Because I've been going to DC a lot, Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer, the guys that run the House and the Senate for the Democrats. Sorry about that.

• 15:35Anthony Pompliano?

  That's Gary Gensler calling him right now.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Goddamn Gensler! These guys want bipartisan legislation. They see crypto as bipartisan. It is bipartisan. But a small faction, right? Elizabeth Warren, you know, Sherrod Brown, unfortunately, has kind of gotten on her bandwagon. It feels like people in the White House, Leo Brainard, have broadly, certainly Gary, have broadly said, "We don't like crypto." And in DC, you know, small factions can hold up the whole process. And I think the Democrats are getting

• 16:21Speaker 02

  the message I just said. The American people have just voted, and they voted Bitcoin, right? This, like, when you're in politics, you've got to be careful that you don't get so tied up on what you want versus what is. And so this is going to be a losing issue for Democrats. There are a bunch of PACs that have been formed, crypto PACs, that are putting money against vulnerable Democratic senators. The Democrats understand that and see that happening. And so it won't surprise me to see them pivot to at least a more neutral stance. So I think we get legislation, but it's an unbelievably frustrating. Last year has been frustrating. I think this year will be frustrating until the election.

• 17:02Anthony Pompliano?

  So as someone who's traded macro assets for a long time, you pay a lot of attention to what the Fed's doing, global liquidity, interest rates, many other aspects that go into that analysis. Are the institutions looking at some of those same drivers? Or do you think the institutions are basically saying, okay, we now want to allocate to Bitcoin? They're going to allocate and those allocations are persistent regardless of the macro environment?

• 17:27Speaker 02

  Listen, so Bitcoin has, has and always has had and probably always will have two vectors that drives price. Jesus, schmeezus.

• 17:37Anthony Pompliano?

  That was Elizabeth Warren.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Someone heard me. The two vectors have always been macro, right? Why Bitcoin, right? And so that's the same broad story as gold, silver, other hard assets. And adoption. So right now, adoption's way overwhelming because we've just tapped into. So here are the numbers. There's $84 trillion of wealth, trillion, owned by US baby boomers. Baby boomers are broadly 60 to 80 years old. They are entering into their die-off phase.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  They broadly invest through registered investment advisors. You call your broker at, you know, Dean Witter or Morgan Stanley or A.J. Edwards and say, hey, what's my portfolio? Put a little bit here. That.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Is the ETF process and it has just started. And so early, big adoption, a lot of the, the, the smaller platform, regional brokers have been, been buying, but a lot of the big platforms like Morgan Stanley and they, they're still not selling yet. They're going to, they're getting prepared to. You can buy it on their platform, but the salesmen aren't selling it. And one thing I learned about Bitcoin, it's always sold, it's not bought. Somebody sits down and explains it to you. Right? What's the macro story of Bitcoin? It's relatively simple. Our government can't keep its pants on and is spending too much money.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  And when you spend more money than you take in, you depreciate your currency. And that went from eh, a problem in the early 2000s, 2007, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, to a crises with Donald Trump. Right? And then Joe Biden. Trump and Biden will go down as the two residents who destroyed our fiscal stability. Right? Trump raised government spending a ton before COVID. And then when COVID happened, it was, you know, let, let, let the dogs, let the dogs out.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Biden came in and said, huh, now I've got this cover to run my progressive agenda that helped me get elected and I'm doubly panicking on the COVID, you know, uh, relief. And so we went from, and this is a little nuanced, but it's important to understand. We went from a government that believed at our core, that the federal government is allowed to spend 20% of GDP every year. And we try to tax 20%. My first job in life was working at the Office of Management and Budget under Ronald Reagan, uh, 1984. And I learned that you tax 20, you spend 20. We did it one year, 1999 with Bill Clinton.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Since I've been post-college, the balance, the budget has been balanced one year in America. But we got close, 2% deficit, 3% deficit. We're now running structural 5, 6, 7% deficits. In a good economy. Right? Keynesian economics says you're supposed to run deficits in a bad economy and run surpluses in a good economy. We've normalized spending 25% of GDP on federal government. That's this year's budget, next year's budget, the following year's budget. That happened like this. It happened between Trump and Biden, and that's insane. If you take the Congressional Budget Office's predictions, which are always rosy, right?

• 21:35Speaker 02

  They always are more optimistic than they should be. In 25 years, it has debt to GDP at 250%. Like, that is a recipe for housing prices going higher, Bitcoin going higher, gold going higher, or silver going higher. And until you see a government, both Dems and Republicans, that say, "Enough. We are going to go back to Simpson Bowles' balanced budget amendment. We are going to cut spending from 25% back to 18 or 19%." Bitcoin's going to keep going higher.

• 22:06Anthony Pompliano?

  What about countries that are adopting Bitcoin? We've seen El Salvador, you know, they're taking custody of their Bitcoin. They've got 5,000-something Bitcoin. Argentina, we now have somebody who's stepping in, who's slashing, you know, spending and trying to really economically revamp the country. Is that stuff, one, going to work? And, two, do you see some of these countries actually going on to like a Bitcoin standard?

• 22:30Speaker 02

  I don't think they'll go on a Bitcoin standard, but I think they'll buy Bitcoin. Listen, if the whole world blows up, you never know what comes next. I go to bed every night and I pray the whole world doesn't blow up. I actually, quite frankly, would rather have Bitcoin go up slowly than go to a million overnight because that would make us all wealthier. We would lose civil society. Like, you can't have wealth shifts like that without revolution. And so, what's happening in places? Look at the Nigerian currency. When you get back to your computer, look at the Nigerian currency the last week, right? So you have people that lose half their wealth. And so, in places with terrible stewardship...

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Of economies, Bitcoin should be a human right or some store of value, right? Most people would still rather have the dollar. And so it's insane that our government hasn't propagated a dollar-based stablecoin. I mean, we do with Tether, right? Tether is the global dollar-based stablecoin. USDC is a more regulated version of Tether. But the US government should be helping because if you're in Nigeria, we'd rather, as a US government, have them buy dollars than Bitcoin, right? We are so obsessed with who might be buying our currency than the fact that we've got

• 24:01Speaker 02

  the largest deficits in the history of the world to finance. Like, we should let every Russian who wants to buy our currency, you know, fund our debt. And so I think this is a geopolitical mistake in stablecoins, but you're going to see a lot of activity around this. Because, again, Argentina said our currency went to hell in a handbasket. We got to do something. So you've got this new right-wing president who says, okay, we're going to, you know, ban the central bank and we're going to go on, in essence, a hard money standard.

• 24:33Anthony Pompliano?

  My last question is around Galaxy. You guys have built a pretty big business. Seems like things are quite successful. You just announced $10 billion in assets under management for your asset management business. You're in Canada. I know that there has been a lot of talk online that the company trades at a lower book value. Talk a little bit as to how you think about the business? How do you guys make money? Canada versus US markets?

• 25:00Speaker 02

  So caveat, we have earnings on Monday. So I got to be a little careful what I say. Like, our business feels great. And the institutions are finally coming in partnerships, in activity. And so when I look at the forward roadmap, we have an amazing roadmap. Our challenge, of course, is now to go execute it. Right? We have three basic business lines. One is infrastructure. We've got a big Bitcoin mine down in Texas, 200 megawatts, 5x a hash with a lot of growth potential. It's probably the best piece of dirt in Texas when it comes to Bitcoin mining. And we mine Bitcoin cheaper than anybody.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  That's partly because of our power trading, partly because of our location, and partly because of our cost. And so, great, check. If that was a public company in the US, it would trade like CLSK or Marathon or Riot, you know, at four or five times book. Our stock trades, you know, somewhere between book and 1.3 times book, depending on the day. We are building out a staking business very quickly. We're going to make some announcements soon, but that business is growing really fast. And I think there's a synergy with that business and some of the other businesses that we have, right? Your trading businesses, your...

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Galaxy wants to be the group that covers both people in the institutional world and the big crypto players. So you go to a protocol and you offer them staking and market making as a service, and then asset management, and you become their partner. Our trading, what traditionally our markets business, which is sales, trading derivatives, we are one of the biggest derivative players. There's a level you get to in total derivatives where you have to become a registered derivative player. The bad news is, it's pretty costly. It's a Gensler tax in terms of compliance.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  The good news is, you've gotten there, and there's a barrier to entry for the rest of the people. And so our derivative business has gotten there. It's our best business in sales and trading. We've got a big lending business, and our prime business is finally getting up and running, and that's going to be growing really quickly. And so those are the businesses that feel like...

• 27:34Speaker 02

  What Goldman Sachs used to feel like to sales and trading in crypto. But at the same time, we're building the on-chain capabilities. Because we see that's where the future is coming. And so we've got a big on-chain effort going on right now. That's both lending and on-chain, it's trading on-chain. And so that's where I see a lot of the the next year optimism coming. And then asset management, we just announced we've got $10 billion asset under assets. That's partly because assets have gone up, partly because we've done a lot of this bankruptcy work for FTX and others. And so, you know, it's close to 500 or 450 people on our way to 600. I feel like it's an undervalued franchise. We are patient.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  People give me shit on Twitter all day long about, you know, you said we was gonna go to the the NASDAQ and you never did. I was like, hmm, do you think that was our choice? Right? We have an SEC that has not allowed companies that deal with anything other than Bitcoin, you know, through the process. And that's not galaxy specific. There's Bullish, there's eToro, there's plenty of companies that we're trying to get through. And so, listen, we are engaged with them all the time. We are engaged with all the regulators. We want to be public, but we'll see.

• 28:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Leave us with your price prediction for this bull market.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know, I was on CNBC last week and they asked people where we're going. I said, listen, you know, I think you gotta be careful. You've had a huge run. Markets rarely take out three-year highs that are 300% up and just keep going straight through, right? They correct. And I said, well, maybe you could go to 53,000. Now, I think I jinxed us. That's why I apologize. It feels like 53, 55 should be the floor. We're at 62 now. I hope I hope 60 is the floor, but. And it's going to take some time before we take out that 73 again.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  I really do believe that within 12 months, we're significantly higher. You know, when you have a whole new world starting to buy, you go into price discovery. And so I can draw a line and say like, listen, 100 was my target because it felt like a good round number. How do I even think about Bitcoin conceptually? I think of gold, right? Market cap of gold is 13 trillion, right? Market cap of Bitcoin right now at 65,000 times 2 is what 1.4 trillion? So we're like 1/10 of gold. Could we be 20% of gold in two years? Of course we could. Right?

• 30:21Speaker 02

  What I say earlier, 85 trillion of wealth in the United States between 60 and 80 years old. As they die, that money goes to younger people who are much more comfortable with buying Dog with Hat, or Bitcoin, or Ethereum, or Solana.

• 30:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Mike Novogratz, everyone.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  Thanks, guys.