#1140 Gideon Powell On Bitcoin Mining, The Oil Industry, & Criminal Justice Reform

Gideon Powell is the CEO & Chairman of Cholla Petroleum. In this conversation, we discuss oil & gas field workers, his family’s story, the rise of Bitcoin mining in West Texas, why Texas will dominate the future, his work in criminal justice reform, the books he reads and why, and a deep dive into the famous builders and thinkers in history. ======================= This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. The Eight Sleep Pod is a tech layer that fits onto your mattress like a fitted sheet. The Pod dynamically cools and heats each side of the bed, to maintain the optimal sleeping temperature for what your body needs. With the Pod, you can start sleeping as cool as 55°F or as hot as 110°F. The result: Clinical data shows that Eight Sleep users experience up to 34% more deep sleep. Go to eightsleep.com/pomp for exclusive holiday savings and ring in the most wonderful time of night. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. ======================= Exodus is the world’s leading browser, desktop, mobile, and hardware crypto wallet with support for over 230 cryptocurrencies. Founded in 2015 to empower people to control their wealth, Exodus has delivered a multichain Web3 Wallet – connecting you to Ethereum, Solana, and Algorand Web3 apps directly in your browser, with more networks on the way. Visit exodus.com/pomp today to download. ======================= The number one name in NFT domains and the world’s most powerful wallet are teaming up to bring something new to the crypto and Web3 world: That’s right, Unstoppable Domains and Blockchain.com partnered to create NFT domain names ending in . Blockchain. It’s the perfect ending to show that you’re a believer in a decentralized future. Either sign up for a free blockchain.wallet or visit Unstoppabledomains.com to buy your domain today. ================== LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= Arculus is the next generation crypto & NFT cold storage wallet that combines one of the world’s strongest security protocols with the easiest to use form factor and app. Arculus requires 3-Factor Authentication to ensure only you have access to your digital assets – something you know – a PIN, something you have – the Arculus Key Card, and biometrics. Learn more and buy it now on getarculus.com. Use promo code POMP to save 15%. Remember, with Arculus, it’s your keys, your crypto. ======================= With a Messari Pro subscription, you gain access to exclusive industry-leading long-form daily research reports, daily crypto news & insights in your inbox, advanced asset screeners, curated sets of charts and metrics and so much more. Try Messari Pro today! Get up to 25% off their Messari Pro membership by visiting www.messari.io/pro and entering promo code "POMP" at checkout. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Gideon Powell is the CEO and Chairman of Troya Inc. In this conversation, we talk about oil and gas field workers, his family's story, the rise of Bitcoin mining in West Texas, why he believes West Texas is going to dominate the future, the work that he's doing in the criminal justice system, and how he thinks we can change that for the better, why he reads so many books, and exactly how he picks the next book he's going to read. And then we do a deep dive on Troya Inc. itself, Charles Koch, and the building of various businesses, and then Julian Simon, the greatest economist that no one has ever heard of. I really enjoyed

• 0:44Anthony Pompliano?

  this conversation with Gideon, and I hope you guys enjoy it as well. After you get done listening to this episode, jump on Twitter and let us know what you liked, what you didn't like, what you agree with, and what you disagree with. We always appreciate the feedback. Here's my conversation with Gideon.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:22Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Gideon here with me. I'm super excited to talk about this. Everyone in the world knows that the American economy is made up of so many different types of workers, businesses, but one that gets shit on, one that gets completely lost in kind of the controversy and the debate on a national stage is the oil and gas field workers. And you, your family, so much of what you do on a day-to-day basis, you interact with these people, you've worked with them for a long period of time. And so I thought a great place to start our conversation is just like, help us understand the oil and gas industry and the importance of the actual field worker themselves to sustain not only the industry, but the American economy in general.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's one of the most important things. I appreciate giving me a platform to talk on this because really, you know, we talk about oil and gas, and it's obviously needed throughout society. I think there was a lot of push towards, hey, let's, you know, do this energy transition, but it needs to be sustainable. And part of sustainability is profit. So I think really kind of slowing down and thinking about what's going on in the field. And yeah, to your point, so the field workers are the guys that are putting oil in the tanks. And so really, I mean, when there's a weather event, you know, those guys are overcoming adversity, they're overcoming the elements, they're actually in the field ensuring that oil is coming out of the ground, the gas is coming out of the ground. And that gas is heating our homes, it's powering power plants, which is baseload critical to

• 2:46Speaker 02

  powering our whole world and, you know, economy. So really, the field workers, I think they're one of the most underappreciated throughout society. And, you know, I was telling you the story earlier, but my daughter came home from school one day, and she was like, hey, my friends know you're an oil and gas and they don't like you. And I was like, cool. So here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna wake up tomorrow, 5:00 AM, and we're gonna go up to West Texas where we've got a frac operation going on. And to my surprise, she woke up before me and was ready to go. And we drove three hours out to West Texas and, you know, we got, we got there, there's about 30 guys, mass amounts of equipment going on. And really, I did, luckily, one of our, our head of engineering was out there. And

• 3:28Speaker 02

  I was like, Walker, will you introduce her to everybody? And she got to see 30 guys that were working. And I said, Avery, these 30 guys, they're ensuring that we have the fuel needed to power our current modern world. And without these individuals, that wouldn't be possible. And, and oil is $10. We were fracking when nobody else was. And there was chaos, oil just stopped being negative. And she got to see 30 individuals who were able to feed their families, because there was this, you know, mutual benefit of we're getting oil out, and these guys are making it, making sure it happens. So, you know, and I could have tried to explain that to her, but she saw that perspective and, you know, made sense to her.

• 4:09Anthony Pompliano?

  There's an element of humanizing these conversations that I think is really important, right? There's a comedian who has a whole spiel about the term insurgent during the war, right? If you say, hey, we're gonna go kill insurgents, everyone's like, I don't know any insurgents, like, kill them all, right? But if you're like, hey, we're gonna go kill humans, everyone, timeout, hold on, which humans, why, all of that. Same thing when you bring it to the national debate and it's not so much a wartime scenario, but we talk about different industries or different types of workers with just this broad-based stroke. You don't know anyone in that industry. You've never met anyone. You don't understand what they do on a day-to-day basis. You may not even understand how that industry works or what that job entails. And so therefore, it's easy to say, I like this one. I don't like this one because you don't know, right?

• 4:53Anthony Pompliano?

  You're just completely uninformed. You're ignorant. And frankly, most people are just repeating what they've heard on the mainstream media. When you look at these roles of the oil and gas workers, what are they doing on a day-to-day basis? Like you said, they help get the oil into the tanks, right? They're making sure that the natural gas is coming out of the ground, like all these. But like, what are they actually doing? And I'm coming at it super uneducated, other than I seen the video on the internet where they're wrapping the chains around the actual drills. And that shit looks real hard.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Throw a chain.

• 5:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Right?

• 5:26Speaker 02

  I worked on a double-jack knife rig and once they found out I was the boss's son, I was not allowed to throw a chain.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. So yeah, I think, you know, there's a few kind of key field workers. And I love, you know, I love the convergence of Bitcoin mining and oil and gas because a lot of the names that have emerged for these positions, we're all going to translate that over to Bitcoin mining as well. But really, there's your pumper. So after you have drilled a well, you know, that is a mechanical operation that goes thousands of feet into the ground. You set casing, which is pipe. Then you have fluids, then you have cement to ensure that you're protecting the water. But one, that oil and gas doesn't just come out of the ground. That's a mechanical operation. Things are going to break. So what a pumper does is they're proactively checking on the well. If there's a leak, leaks happen, then the pumper is our first line of defense to ensuring, hey, let's catch it before it gets bad and then remediate the land.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  So really, the pumper kind of floats around and has several different wells. And this covers a large geographic area. And there's talk of, oh, let's automate that, you know? And of course, there's efficiencies that, you know, Choi were evaluating. But you can't ever replace the human that goes out there, makes observations, and then is able to assess what went wrong or what is about to go wrong. So that's kind of another big, you know, you've got to anticipate. And that's where experience matters. So the pumper is in charge of making sure that the wells are performing, performing safely, and, you know, kind of the first line of defense on what could go wrong. And I kind of think about the pumper like I think about, you know, somebody checking on their Bitcoin mine.

• 6:59Anthony Pompliano?

  All right.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  But we'll get there. But yeah, and then there's the roughneck. And what a roughneck does.

• 7:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Great name.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  It's a, yeah, yeah. Roughneck is one of the greatest.

• 7:07Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't know what they do, but I want to be that guy.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  So what a roughneck does is they're kind of a modern nomad. So their job is to operate the drilling rig. So they're the guys on the drilling rig, and that's an offshore drilling rig, or that's an onshore drilling rig. And so really, they're the guys, and there's a few different ways to manage their schedules. But a lot of guys do, you know, three, eight-hour ships. And this is a huge capital investment. It's millions of dollars to own a drilling rig. And so you want that working 24/7. I mean, these guys are working over Christmas, over Thanksgiving, over New Year's, over the Super Bowl. I mean, this is a 24/7 operation. And so what they're doing is there's a few different types of roughnecks.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  There's a tool pusher who's in charge, and then, you know, you've got the weasel, the new guy. But really, those are the guys that are manning the mechanical operations of putting a hole in the ground. So you're, you're going into the ground, and then, you know, you've got to connect pipe or drill pipe. And so you've got a drill bit that has to go down. We're going down two miles below the earth. That is, just, you know, look out and identify what is a two-mile marker. We're going that far down. And then we go two miles sideways.

• 8:25Anthony Pompliano?

  So you go two miles down and then two miles sideways to actually hit some of these oil deposits?

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 8:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Is that the right terminology, oil deposit?

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Reservoirs.

• 8:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Reservoir, yeah. I'm only half smart. All right, so two miles down, two miles sideways. But when you do that, how do you know that you're going to hit it? That is like the big question that when I see this, I'm like, I didn't realize it was two miles, first of all. But second of all, like, the pinpoint accuracy to hit this stuff, how big is the reservoir? And like, do you ever miss?

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, you definitely miss. That's okay. There's so many awesome capabilities and guys and girls in this industry, but to ensure you don't miss, you want to have a damn good drilling engineer. But at the same time, you want to have someone on his team that's an operations geologist. So the drilling engineer is really kind of the quarterback, ensuring the drilling is done safely, prudently and efficiently. And really, we've got a great drilling, I mean, our drilling engineer, I'm gonna go and brag on him. One of the things I really liked is when you have a certain KPI, which is a lot of drilling engineers like to go fast because that's you can measure. Well, if you drill too fast, then you're going to drill a janky hole. And that means when you're

• 9:35Speaker 02

  producing it, the pumper is going to have a harder time. So you really want a humble individual that is a high performer. And that's exactly what we've got. His name's David Dean. He's an awesome human. And I was incredibly impressed the first time I had breakfast with him is just his humility. And I've seen it in action where he's a good communicator because it's intense, you're moving fast. So the drilling engineer is really setting that kind of framework for how do we do this right? And ensuring the roughnecks, the tool pushers, and then the directional company. So what a directional company does is they literally are a service company that has the technology to measure where you are. So you're down two miles and we're actually going, some people are going to three miles.

• 10:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Is that because there's less oil closer to the surface now? Like, we've been going and getting oil for a while. And so we have to keep going deeper and deeper to find more of these reservoirs?

• 10:25Speaker 02

  It's not just deeper. So it really is this amazing study of human ingenuity. So historically, you would drill down and you didn't have to drill, like, we literally, there was oil seeps on the ground. And people were like, oh, where's the oil on the ground? Let's put a hole there. And that was like a novel concept. And then a liquid battery came out. And people were like, oh, great, we can make this into productive. And that obviously ushered in the industrial revolution.

• 10:48Anthony Pompliano?

  That's when I would have been successful in the oil and gas industry is when you could just walk around and be like, oh, there's oil, put a hole there. Like, after that, I'm out.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  And that's where, I mean, people are like, oh, Bitcoin is crazy. I can't, oh, my gosh, this is like magic internet money. It's like, guys, literally, people used to Imagine trying to explain oil and gas to someone like, hey, we're gonna go drill a hole and a liquid battery is gonna come out. Oh, and we need, you know, inflation adjusted millions of dollars to go to like West Texas. That is the flattest. Someone literally conceptualized an idea in their mind that underneath that were mountains of oil. And, you know, that obviously ushered in the Industrial Revolution and helped us win World War II.

• 11:27Anthony Pompliano?

  When you see that happening, is that why people in Texas are so predisposed to what I'll consider like the American ideals and ethos because there's a lot of alignment there, but also why they're so predisposed to being receptive to Bitcoin?

• 11:40Speaker 02

  I think it has a lot to do if, you know, one capabilities. If like what we've done, like going two miles down and two miles out, three miles out, that's really challenging. That takes a coordinated effort of several types of employees, services, consultants, companies. And so really, when people are like, oh, Bitcoin mining, it's so hard. What we're, what are, what the oil and gas industry has done is light years. It is the most advanced capabilities companies in the world. I mean, we have overcome, you're talking about offshore, going down, you know, several miles, then hitting the seabed floor, then going down, you know, another five miles. I mean, these are orders of magnitude, more

• 12:22Speaker 02

  complex projects than anything the world has faced. So when we, so to me, it all comes down to capabilities. We, in the oil and gas business, we've seen individuals overcome significant obstacles to power our modern world. And really, you know, again, it kind of goes back to like, we're never gonna, we will never run out of oil molecules. Period, full stop, end of argument. We might run out of economic oil. And I think that goes back to Julian Simon's principle of cornucopia in economics, which when oil goes up, it's saying two things. Find more of me and compete, or, or, so find more of me, or find another resource to compete. So when oil was running out in 2008, or, you know, gas was running

• 13:06Speaker 02

  out, we were literally building, spending billions of dollars to import natural gas. And then what happened? Some dudes out of West Texas and the Barnett Shell said, hey, let's drill sideways. Let's apply innovation. Let's apply technology. The price signal has gone up. The incentive is greater. Boom. So we're not running out of natural gas. We got way too much. And I think the same thing happened with the oil business. You know, we were running out of oil and then everyone's like, oh, we did it with gas. Can we do it with oil? Hell, yeah. Human innovation was applied and oil would be significantly higher had we not had the culture we have in America and the property rights to unleash that innovation.

• 13:43Anthony Pompliano?

  You mentioned Julian Simon and I didn't know who that was until you were telling me about him. And you, I think quote that you used was Julian Simon is the greatest economic individual that no one knows. He's the greatest economist that no one knows. Julian Simon is the greatest economist that no one knows. Who the hell is Julian Simon?

• 14:01Speaker 02

  He really was the antithesis to the Malthusian idea that we have too many people on this planet. So really he took the stance and he made a famous bet on kind of the future of commodity prices where he said, look, in the long run, all commodities trend towards zero because of human innovation. And I think history has repeated, you know, shown this multiple times. So he wrote a book called The Ultimate Resource, about the ultimate resource one and the ultimate resource two. And really he popularized and really conceptualized these ideas that we don't need top down management. We need more people. And so really the greatest resource is the human mind. So we need more people. We need more people

• 14:44Speaker 02

  with more ideas equipped with liberty. And so, you know, one of his quotes is our company quote where it's like individuals equipped with liberty and freedom, they can exert their will on, you know, their ecosystem. And there's this mutual benefit that we all, and I think this has played out. I mean, I like the example of going back to whaling. Literally the whales were going extinct because of whale fat and that was used to power the world. And then somebody found this thing called kerosene and all of a sudden the whales didn't go extinct. You know, that was not out of the goodness of their heart. That was there was a better product, let the market compete. We saw this at the same time with we were, people were deforesting Europe to power. They were using wood. You know, that is archaic,

• 15:27Speaker 02

  but and they were deforesting all of Europe. And then all of a sudden, someone was like, I mean, they were designing boats to go to America to pick up wood and come back. And then all of a sudden, coal was discovered and that helped where we didn't, you know, deforest everything. So I think when people talk about CO2 or, you know, emissions, this is not something society hasn't faced. And in fact, the people that are going to solve it are the individuals with resources endowed with liberty and capabilities at the oil and gas companies.

• 15:53Anthony Pompliano?

  What's fascinating to me about you is you're very well educated. You have this very kind of sympathetic view towards the oil and gas field worker. You understand the importance of the actual people on the ground, doing the work, keeping the American economy powered and running and kind of building this huge economic machine the world's never seen before. But at the same time, you run a business and you run a business in a pretty unique way compared to the rest of the world. But you've got a couple of folks that I think you you've kind of gotten a crash course from and Charles Koch is one of them who, when I say that name, most people think of politics and donations and all this kind of stuff. But they actually don't know that Charles Koch and his brother have built

• 16:36Anthony Pompliano?

  one of the largest, if not the largest private company in America. Think it does, you know, 100 plus billion dollars in revenue a year. And when you actually start to unpack how they did that, the MBA that you can get from simply understanding how well run that organization is, how principled that organization is, how they treat their employees, how they treat their partners, how they treat their leaders, is unlike most companies in America. So maybe talk a little bit about that organization and what you've learned from them and maybe Charles himself.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, Charles Koch will go down as one of the greatest philosophers and business leaders and philanthropic leaders the world's ever seen. Really, I'm incredibly blessed. I was posting libertarian-ish things in 2016, 17. I always try to be very respectful. And one of my friends called me and said, hey, you clearly don't have enough friends. Why don't you come to this dinner? And I went to this dinner and it was a dinner sponsored by Charles Koch's philanthropic group called Stand Together. And at that dinner, I met eight other, my wife and I showed up, we made eight other individuals who really cared and weren't just LARPing and complaining.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  It was, there are problems in the world. What are we gonna do about it? And so, I, I mean, that was just a supercharge of like, wow, these people, they're, you know, they, I mean, it was an incredibly diverse crowd. Everyone had different ideas, but there was no complaining. It was, how do we get better? And so then, you know, started going to this, you know, these events called Stand Together. And I just remember interacting with everyone at this philanthropic group and being incredibly impressed with, you know, even a little thing, like one time a whiteboard fell and one of the employees from the very far back came back, grabbed the whiteboard and put it up. And I was just like, how is everyone such a high performer here and so respectful?

• 18:34Speaker 02

  And there's also, if you, you know, if you, I'm a member of Stand Together, because it's one of the easiest organizations I've ever felt about. I mean, it was just such an easy win to join.

• 18:44Anthony Pompliano?

  What is it? Stand Together?

• 18:45Speaker 02

  So Stand Together is a philanthropic organization that is focused on backing social entrepreneurs. So really, what Charles Koch and his team did was they developed capabilities over decades on how to build long-term value. And profit matters, but it's really, you know, we think about things in a binary way of for-profit, not-for-profit, and I think that's a flawed dynamic. And really, it's culture. How do you build culture? So I had no idea what company culture was. I'd never thought about it. But I remember I was meeting with, and what his philosophy is really market-based management or principle-based management. And it's apply, basically what distilled what made America great, and then

• 19:30Speaker 02

  apply that to any ecosystem. And so, really, when I started interacting with the Stand Together people, I also got introduced to some former executives from Koch Industries, and they just spoke. The most truth and wisdom, I mean, it was just like unbelievable on the knowledge. And I was all, you know, my dad was, you know, he, his dad died at a young age and he just had to work and he, and his whole life, he felt like he was trying to survive, even though he built a massive business, but he loved working. But, you know, so he instilled in me this just like, hey, be effective, get stuff done. And, you know, it was so fun to work with my dad towards the end of his life, cause he built, I kept reiterating, you know, it's hard going through change. I was trying to change stuff at Choya.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  But he, he started to see that I got to take time off, reflect, build philosophy, heavily influenced by market-based management and stand together and Coke Industries and apply that to, to not only my personal life, my business life, my philanthropic of how do we create mutual benefit through society? And specifically, I'll never forget, so I was arrested my senior year of college. It was, it sucked.

• 20:40Anthony Pompliano?

  What'd you do?

• 20:41Speaker 02

  I got in a motorcycle accident in a parade and, you know, I hurt some kids and that sucked because I was making kids smile before that. But I got to go to jail and I'll never forget, I, I walked in feeling really sorry for myself because I was charged with three, the DA basically said, we're going to charge you with three counts of aggravated assault. And I was like, Dad, let's fight this. That's like, look, I messed up, but like felonies? And that was one of the first times I saw my dad cry and my criminal defense attorney was like, you can't win this, Gideon. You, you have to plead down. And it was also, but yeah, so that, so anyway, I go into jail and I tell the story and people were like, how long were you in there? Like three hours.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  But my two white parents who love each other, who raised me, and I had an awesome criminal defense, they took me to jail. And so when I came out, it didn't happen overnight, but I realized, wow, this system's really messed up. And imagine if I didn't have the financial resources I have. So I got interested in criminal justice reform. That's actually where I first got introduced to Charles and his philosophy is I saw that he was interested in criminal justice reform. And then, you know, years later, I got invited to see him and it was just like a, an amazing thing.

• 21:56Anthony Pompliano?

  What does he do around criminal justice reform?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Okay, so really there's something called the First Step Act, which basically got It equipped people with the resources to get thousands of people out of jail who should not be in jail. So our criminal justice system is totally screwed up. There's no doubt, but it's so big. How do we, I mean, there are, like, we talk about America, which is a dichotomous relationship of like, okay, we're the freest nation in the world, but we also incarcerate more people than any other nation. Like, that's insane, and that's a problem, and it's one of the greatest travesties of our time. And so I also like criminal justice reform because it's mutually beneficial. There is no tribe. Like, okay, there's, you know, okay, we got, you're a Democrat, okay, you like criminal justice reform, you know,

• 22:44Speaker 02

  lower the amount of time for nonviolent drug offenses. And then, oh, you're a Republican, and you are fiscally conservative. Well, prison is a really expensive way of making people worse. And so, so Charles and his team, a guy named Mark Holden, actually, was coach general counsel, and he approached Charles and said, hey, this is really screwed up. I'm a lawyer. I worked at a jail. I want to change this. And so Mark spun out, started developing capabilities up in Washington. And really, for decades, they built resources, relationships, and were prepared. And a few years ago, there was a woman named Alice Marie Johnson. So Alice, she's one of the most amazing people I've ever met. And she was

• 23:27Speaker 02

  in jail because she got in, put in a bad situation. She was a grandma, her mother at the time, and she, she sold drugs. And she approached, and it was her first time ever offense. And, you know, the DA said, we're gonna, we're gonna punish you. And she said, this is insane. I'm not doing, pleading down to 10 years, or something like that. And so she fought it. And they punished her. They sent a message, which is, do not fight the system. Take your slap on the wrist of 10 years. So she was set to be in jail forever. So anyway, we threw a fundraiser, my wife and I did, to kind of incubate some criminal justice nonprofits.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  And I remember seeing a video of Alice Marie Johnson played at my house. And she's just this sweet, sweet lady. And she's talking about she messed up and but how she's sorry. And I gave this speech at my house, I think it was 2016 about how I'm, you know, or no, 17. I was like, you know, we, everyone in this room, I invited all my parents' friends, all my, you know, all my Bitcoin friends, all my oil friends, like anybody that's curious and had resources. I wanted you there. And actually Parker Lewis orange peeled me that night. Thank you.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  But it was really fun. The mayor. I mean, and it was so fun because so many, I got to bring in so many people that it wasn't about Bitcoin. It was about how do we elevate human prosperity? And here's an injustice. And I remember saying, everyone can have a small impact on ensuring people like Alice. And the jail wouldn't even let her video in. We had to play a recording. And I was like, everyone can have a small impact on ensuring people like Alice get out of jail and also stay out of jail. And then like a year later, I'm in a Stand Together conference hugging her. How'd that happen? Well, how it had to been is because it, I was a very, very, very small part of elevating a dialogue. My wife and I were. But really what people don't fully appreciate is the first step act was about to die.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  It was, there were some people held up on it. And I remember the night it was held up, I was texting Mark Holden, some leaders at Stand Together, some leaders at America's For Prosperity. And I was like, hey, how can I help? How can I help? And I'll never forget, Mark was like, Gideon, we've been preparing for this moment for a very long time. You know, appreciate your feedback. And they got it over the finish line. They got it done. And it wasn't one individual, wasn't Mark, wasn't Charles. It was a coordinated effort, but all the groups I was talking to were incubated by Charles Koch. So anyone who got out of jail, they don't give a damn what, you know, who got them out of jail. You know, so really, and you know, President Trump signed that. He pardoned Alice Marie and Alice was the inspiration. I mean,

• 26:05Speaker 02

  You've got to bring her on. She is like, she was literally, I don't know if you've ever been to jail. It's really dehumanizing. And I've been in inside of several jails, uh, multiple times with my wife, working on some, you know, it's just dehumanizing, you know, and no one's getting out of that better. I mean, you're not even allowed, when COVID, you couldn't even hug your daughter. So there's a program called Girls Embracing Mothers Gym. And, you know, so sweet, um, we, you know, my wife, um, and my kids made these blankets, or got blankets, and it was so hard to get them into the jail. But when we got them inside the jail, the mothers got to spend time with their daughters and work on a little project together. And like,

• 26:43Anthony Pompliano?

  It's the humanizing element of it.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:44Anthony Pompliano?

  That basically, when you do that, all of a sudden now, you, you bring back not only for the mothers, but also for the daughters.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  And that's where, um, Brittany Barnett, um, has a quote that I, I steal a lot of quotes. I try to give people credit.

• 26:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Sorry, none of them are original.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  It's not just one person goes to jail, the whole family goes to jail. So we're taking people, we're moving them, we're placing them around. And, you know, we need, um, you know, my brother's a recovering heroin addict. And that doesn't happen overnight. It's a lack of community. It's all, it's, it's, it's all these things. So we have to keep the families together.

• 27:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  And we have to think about that. And that should be considered in.

• 27:22Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I do think that this is a really interesting, um, place, maybe that our society's in, right? So, uh, it's very well documented, the challenges with broken homes and, and the lack of, uh, two parents and all that. And, and I always careful to say like, some people, uh, arrive at that situation by choice. Some people arrive at it, uh, not by choice. They're put in that situation. And so whichever you get there, you get there. And I think that there's a lot of, uh, work that's being done on, you know, what can we do to help these families that, that are there? Whether they chose to be there or not, we, we need to help them. But also, there's this interconnectedness of,

• 27:56Anthony Pompliano?

  We live a sedentary life. People are not out exercising. They don't eat healthy. Well, why are they not eating healthy? Well, they probably don't make enough money in many cases to actually be able to afford healthy food, right? Then all of a sudden, you add in things like the mental health issues. But are the mental health issues, because if you just were by yourself, you would have the mental health issue, whereas it's because we're poisoning brains with social media and electronics and devices. Then you add in criminal behavior and then drugs. And you start to like, build this picture where you're like, hold on a second here. There's a lot of issues that people face in society. But, or there are one, two, three different things that if we just tackle them, we actually can have a first principle solution, right? And I think a lot about like criminal justice reform.

• 28:40Anthony Pompliano?

  I've had people on who are public defenders. I've had people on who have been in jail or in prison. I've had people on who are lawyers who help put people in prison, right? And FBI agents, like all these different people are in and around this stuff. And when I pull back for a second, I think to myself, you gotta attack it from both sides, it feels like. You gotta have what I call like the Band-Aid solution. Hey, you're already in the situation. We can't go back. Let's get you out, right? How do we actually help you, given the situation you're in? At the same time, how do we have a first principle solution to prevent the next wave of people from ending up in the same situation? And I think, one, as I've learned about this stuff and talked to a whole bunch of different people, one of the things everyone agrees on is like, we gotta have a society where there are a set of rules, what those rules are will be debated, but there has to be a set of rules. And it has to be enforced.

• 29:26Anthony Pompliano?

  And that, some people's vision of that is like, lots of rules. Some people's vision of that is almost no rules. But somewhere, there's gotta be rules and they've gotta be enforced at whatever society agrees upon. But what it feels like is, in the pursuit of individuals trying to do their job, then they're making decisions that they don't understand the repercussions. And I think a lot about, you know, the drug laws is probably one of the best examples, where we have people who are sitting in jail for literally a decade plus for nonviolent possession, in some cases. And each story is different, each, you know, kind of detail is different.

• 30:03Anthony Pompliano?

  But when you look at like that one situation, you're like, I don't think that's what actually the people who created the laws, I don't think that's law enforcement. And I don't think that's what society intended to be the outcome. But we got here. And so unraveling is way harder than creating a situation. But it feels like some of the work you guys have done and Charles and kind of his organizations are doing is like trying to attack it from both sides. Is that a fair way to think about it?

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Oh, not just both sides, all sides. I mean, I think that was like, you know, if you're a curious individual and you care, you want a better world, it's incredibly overwhelming. Where do we start? Okay, well, if I help in education, well, then you still got criminal justice. But I think that was one of the coolest things when I walked in to Stand Together is there were type A get stuff done people in every arena. I'll never forget that one of the first guys I met, God, I forgot which state he was from. It was somewhere on the East Coast. He was like, I didn't like the school system in my state. So I had the resource to do something. So I built a competitive school. And I'm just like, oh, what? That's possible. And I think, and I think that's what they're, you know, setting a good vision is really important. And like, giving everyone like, hey, how do we work on this? And let's all start trending. And I think one of the things you talk about

• 31:10Speaker 02

  is, you know, these rules in society. And I think that's where many of us are trying to popularize. Look, there's, there's for profit, nonprofit, but that's too black and white. Things are complicated. So we're trying to build out this framework of top down solutions versus bottom up solutions. And I think, you know, an example is, well, the oil and gas business. I mean, why did the American shale, why did the shale revolution, the energy Renaissance happen in America? And it's because there was, and Russia doesn't have bottom up solutions. Saudi Arabia has better rocks. There are way better rocks globally. California

• 31:51Speaker 02

  has some of the best. I think that Los Angeles basin has the highest oil per square sedimentary foot in the world. West Texas doesn't have the best rocks. What do they have? They have a culture that equips bottom, they have property rights, which gives a line of sight to, you know, change. So there isn't one person in America dictating energy policy. There is a bunch of Entrepreneurs who are equipped with profit and a vision of creating value. So I think this idea of bottom up, can it be applied? You know, same thing like we have federal draconian drug laws. Get rid of them. Let the states set that what that should be. So I think, which kind of goes back to the philosophy I was working on, which my wife told me to not talk about it.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  How do we have, you know, a different conversation, which is not for profit, nonprofit? You know, um, uh, what's kind of another good example is like COVID policy, you know? The federal, you know, there were federal government, hey, look, do this, you know? And it really, it's like, hey, what does the community want to decide? So I think getting the closer we can push decision rights to the individual individuals. It can be scary, but we know what's best for our lives. So, and I think like, you know, that's kind of another reason why I like Bitcoin mining on the grid. Grids are getting more complicated and you had top down federal renewable mandates and incentives that have absolutely distorted the market and I reach chaos in grids. That doesn't mean renewables don't have a place, but Bitcoin mining is a bottom up solution

• 33:19Speaker 02

  that can help balance grids. And I think, you know, right now, I mean, utilities are some of the slowest. They all know this, so those are most archaic. And then you got us, you know, ratchet Bitcoiners who are like, hey, we're going to come in and change everything. And it's scary. But at the same time, we've got to start. And so anyway, I just like that framework of bottom up solutions.

• 33:38Anthony Pompliano?

  This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. The holiday season is here, so give the never ending gift of deeper sleep. About two years ago, I started to sleep on the Eight Sleep and I sleep on it every single night. It quite literally changed my life. I get deeper and better sleep, but don't just listen to me. Clinical data shows that Eight Sleep users experience up to 34% more deep sleep. It is not a holiday miracle, even though it sounds like one. If better sleep is on your wish list, look no further than the new Pod 3. You can go to eightsleep.com/pomp for exclusive holiday savings and ring in the most wonderful time of the year. Eight Sleep currently ships with the US, Canada, the UK, and select countries in the EU and Australia. Go check them out, eightsleep.com/pomp today. This episode is brought to you by Exodus.

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• 35:07Anthony Pompliano?

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• 35:50Anthony Pompliano?

  So this bottom-up solution, I think, is really interesting because every company started bottoms-up, right? Even the ones that are planned in boardrooms or with large investments or spinoffs or whatever. It's individuals with an idea who are willing to invest capital, time, and energy to build something they believe the market wants. And in a capitalist system, the market is the ultimate feedback machine. It either wants it or it doesn't. And I think that there are many people. Vivek Ramaswamy is a good example, who's been on and talked about, "We now have people making decisions at companies that are not about the market. It's not about economics.

• 36:33Anthony Pompliano?

  It's now about how do I fulfill these other mandates?" And his point, I'll paraphrase and hopefully don't get it wrong, is... Your job as a company is to make profit for your shareholders. Focus on that. That does not mean that you should destroy everything else and not worry about everything else. But in many cases, if you are optimizing for the highest amount of profit for your shareholders, that leads you to invest for R and D purposes because over the long term, you have to be innovative, you have to drive change to your business, you have to actually go ahead and develop things. You actually want the best people. And so everyone ends up not looking alike or having the same background, the same experiences.

• 37:14Anthony Pompliano?

  All these like things that I think generally society is like, hey, that's a good idea. His point is if you focus on driving profit, the market kind of drives those changes faster than actually having these top down mandates. And my favorite example is minimum wage. Minimum wage in America is still $7.25. And it's been that way for over a decade, almost like 13, 14 years now. Amazon pays close to 20 bucks an hour as their minimum wage, like 17 and a half, 18 bucks. We have politicians that are advocating for minimum wage in America to go from $7.25 to $15. $15 is already behind. Because guess what? One of the largest employers in America is already paying 17 and a half, $18. By the time the politicians get around to making it 15,

• 37:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Amazon is going to be paying 20, 21, 22 dollars. And so the market has done a better job of moving minimum wage than the politicians have. And so it's an argument that like, well, actually, maybe what we should do is remove minimum wage and allow the free market to go ahead and operate. Because guess what? If you go talk to a restaurateur right now, they're not talking about minimum wage. They're talking about, I used to pay a dishwasher $12. There's a restaurateur here, I won't use his name because he's scared to come on the podcast. But he told me, he said, look, we used to have dishwashers 12 bucks an hour. Then I started off in 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 dollars. I can't get anyone to show up. I can't get someone to stick with the job. And so guess what's going to happen? He's going to keep raising the price of what he's going to pay that employee

• 38:44Anthony Pompliano?

  until he finds someone who can do the job. And that free market dynamic to me feels almost exactly what you're talking about of like this bottoms up. Approach, let the market operate. And if you do that, usually you actually arrive at the solutions faster, even in a socialist, a communist, a democratic, capitalist society, whatever, the top down is not only sometimes doesn't achieve it, but it's slower, even if it gets there, than the market itself will actually determine, right?

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I think that's a great example of, you know, bottom up. And I think, of course, I think we can both agree. There is some laws, people, you know, businesses, individuals can take advantage of others in weakness. But I think that doesn't mean that, you know, we shouldn't. I do think that minimum wage and many of these things, we can set a better framework to where it's like, look, have, and I think it goes back to the fiat system of like, and that was one of the weirdest things. I was like, I hate inflation. Like, it is the most evil, evil thing, and it punishes the most disadvantaged. But it's really, really hard to talk to a single mother struggling to pay daycare of, hey, you know what you should hate? The Federal Reserve and quantitative easing, you know?

• 39:52Speaker 02

  So I think that's been a humbling thing as well of like, there are really tough discussions. There's a huge education need. And yeah, just a general lack of incentives to, to change. But I think, you know, even, you know, a business, I even, I don't, you know, I like, I don't even, profit matters. And I think profit is very, allows for more sustainability. But I, I talk in terms of the purpose of our business is to create long-term mutual beneficial value. Because there's a lot of stuff, and we're a private company. So I don't give a damn about the next couple of years. I'm thinking 10, 20 years out. How do we do what's best in a mutually beneficial way for our company and its stakeholders?

• 40:33Speaker 02

  But when you think, when I, when I change the lens to value, I mean, we're a very philanthropic organization. That does not help our short-term profit, and it probably doesn't even help our long-term. But I think we, in society, you know, business leaders, individuals, people in the field, we all have a moral obligation to think about people and the communities we operate in. So I do, and I think that's one of the problems with the public companies. They don't, you know, they've got thousands of people that can bark, oh, you did that? And it's, Short sightedness. So I do hope to see many, many more companies staying private and with a smaller ownership base to where you can effectuate and really be more attentive to mutually beneficial value creation.

• 41:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think the American economy would be better off if we had all private companies or more private companies than so many public companies?

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I mean, one of the problems in, you know, just the general archetypal problem in society is this high time preference. And I think cheap money has accelerated that. So I think when you're public, you have a very high time preference. You are focused on the next quarter. I cannot imagine over the last few years, some of the conversations and the pressure that's been going on in boardrooms with ESG and mandates and other just crazy chaos. But I think if more companies can stay private and not focus so much on how do we get fast, big fast and debt, you know, debt can help, but it's also very, very dangerous. And so I think the more companies that can, you know, not be so, I mean, the American, to me, the American dream is not, um, you know, the billionaires of the world who came from nothing.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  It's the guy that came from India who came here, got a job, working at a big company and can go back to visit his parents and has a few kids. And he gets to go take them to Disneyland. Like that, to me, is the American dream. My granddad was the American dream. Like he came from nothing. He overcame adversity. And he's created a ton of value throughout society, but no one's ever heard of him. That's okay.

• 42:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk about Choya, the, the business that your family runs. It's got a fascinating backstory in terms of how you guys get to where you are. How did it start? What was your grandfather's story?

• 42:43Speaker 02

  So my grand, uh, my grandfather, uh, in when he was in sixth grade, his dad passed away. So he had to go to work. He was the, the breadwinner for the family and, you know, was forced to become an entrepreneur. And so really he, uh, worked at some big companies. He worked for General Crude out in Wink back in like 1921. Um, you know, I had 200 employees. He used to go to the train station with armed guards to pick up the, the, the cash that we pay the guys every two weeks. But he then became an entrepreneur. He, he saved up and he bought a small drilling rig. And he started contract drilling for some of the guys out in East Texas during the East Texas boom.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  And really, you know, my dad was, was birthed in the East Texas craziness. And so my, my granddad was terrible with money. He found a lot of oil, but then he went bankrupt multiple times. So really, but, but he, he was able to provide my dad a really good education. My dad got to go to high school and then my dad got to go to college and get an MBA. And so, but my dad grew up in field operations. He had immense respect for all the guys in the field. Cause he lived it. He saw it. And so there was no one sharper than my dad on the whole, how do you, how do you get oil out of the ground? Cause he lived it.

• 44:04Anthony Pompliano?

  And how important, right? Like to me, I always think of like people who end up rising to run these organizations. Like he built a body of experience. He built a body of knowledge from doing the work. Right? And, and it feels like, given where he was able to take the company over time, it was built on almost like an apprenticeship model, right? Of like, I actually have done this. And when I talk to these employees, I know exactly what they're doing because I did it myself before I ended up getting into the leadership position. Right?

• 44:36Speaker 02

  There was not a single person, we used to say, my dad had 50 direct reports because he talked to everyone at the company. And we all knew he was the smartest guy because he'd done it. Every single thing he was telling someone to do was something he had done. I mean, all the way soup to nuts from prospect to pipeline. My dad lived it. And I think that was, yeah, it was just great seeing that growing up. And yeah, my dad built a huge business.

• 45:01Anthony Pompliano?

  And so talk a little bit, as he's going through the field operations, he's kind of growing, how do, how do we get from him doing the work to eventually building the big company?

• 45:10Speaker 02

  So really, um, my, when my dad was 29, his dad passed away. And I've got the balance sheet. It's like, Abysmal, you know, there was a couple thousand bucks in the bank and then there was like a ten thou- or fifty thousand dollar accounts receivable and then, you know, like a thirty thousand accounts payable. It was Robin Peter to pay Paul and, um, you know, his first five years, he was just trying to survive. Um, and then really, my dad, like I say, he got his MBA, he learned finance. Um, we almost moved to Midland, Texas, uh, but he decided to stay in Dallas because that's where investors were. And so, uh, you know, my dad started out doing a third for a quarter, which was kind of an early private equity-ish structure for oil and gas guys.

• 45:56Anthony Pompliano?

  How does that work?

• 45:57Speaker 02

  So really it's, uh, you find an investor, you know, the doctors, the lawyers, and you put up, they put up a third of the money, uh, to drill the well in exchange for a quarter of the ownership in it. So it's kind of like a front end, um, uh, private equity structure to where, hey, we'll put up a million dollars, but then the operator or like a Choya would keep a quarter ownership. So there was an incentive and you could structure us all kinds of ways, but day one, you got skin in the game and my dad would always keep, um, you know, at least 50% of his deals. Um, but yeah, so he just, he just militant, he knew what he was good at. He drilled about 50 wells a year for the last 10, 10 years of his life. I mean, he, and he just, even on his, uh, on his deathbed, he passed away

• 46:42Speaker 02

  from cancer. I mean, he was just militant. I mean, he was wanting to drill one more well. And, um, we were like, please don't drill this well. And, uh, you know, we just, we're, we'd been growing our team and everyone was, I mean, my dad was just one of a kind. Well, the last three wildcatters. So we drill, you know, we're spending millions of dollars and we drilled this well 6,000 feet and we had problems. And I was like, hey dad, there's problems, let's call it. He's like, Ian, this might be my last damn well. You slide the rig and you drill that hole. And so that's what we did. And then we drilled another 6,000 feet and it was a dry hole. And at the same time, we had a bunch of unplugged miners and he was just screaming from his bed. I mean, it was, he wanted to be with

• 47:23Speaker 02

  his family and he wanted to, um, ensure that I did not become a country club bum.

• 47:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Was that a concern of his? Like, just in general of like, you've built something and you know that you're going to hand it over to the next generation? And the joke is always, you know, the first generation builds it, the second generation keeps it going, the third generation gives it all back, right? Of businesses across industry. Is that something that you guys talked about, like, over the years?

• 47:52Speaker 02

  He, many times, the third generation losing it is something that has been hammered into me. And so I think, you know, my dad did a really good job of, he never told me, go into the oil business. He was like, I love the oil business, you go figure out what you love. So of course, you know, I said, oh, I'm gonna go do my own thing. But I'll never forget, I sat down to get some feedback and just wisdom from a guy named Hans Helmerk.

• 48:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Who was like a third, fourth generation guy who built, professionalized a massive drilling company called Helmerk and Payne. I was like, hey, Hans, I'm thinking about going back to work for my dad, you work for your dad. Can I come up to Tulsa and just pick your brain? And he goes, absolutely. So I flew to Tulsa. You know, he introduced me to all the guys at his team and, you know, different divisions. And then that night, we went to dinner and Utica Square. And he was, he was like, Gideon, you know, we talked, he instilled wisdom. And then finally, he's like, look, Gideon, no one has a more vested interest in your success than your dad. And he was like, you can go work somewhere else, but your dad's gonna care way more than anybody.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  And so even though my dad and I didn't communicate effectively at the time, that was like, oh, man, okay. So I was like, all right, I'm gonna go back to work for my dad. I had a vision, a strategy. I pitched my dad. He said, great, let's go. And so, yeah, that was some of the most blissful years, was just running around the Permian. I don't have a damn clue. I mean, our board approval process was, you know, me barking at my dad, hey, we gotta buy these leases over in Howard County or Dawson County. And then if I, you know, if I yelled loud enough or had enough conviction, then he'd say, okay. And that was our approval process.

• 49:27Anthony Pompliano?

  It's funny because recently, we had a deal. We made an investment years ago and the founder sent me an email and he goes, we're doing a transaction on Wednesday. It's like on Friday before, I'm like, okay. Is it a good transaction or bad, basically? And he goes, in this deal, you guys are gonna get some money back. So you made some money, but you have the option to roll forward 30%. And I only have one question for him. I said, what are you doing? He said, I'm rolling mine. I'm interested in rolling then, right? And there is this element of like the skin in the game, the conviction level, the, the, the signals that actually other people will give you. Now, do I know it's the right decision or not? No, I have no clue, but that's about as strong of a signal as I'm going to get out of any of

• 50:08Anthony Pompliano?

  the other data points I could look at or, or any of this stuff is somebody who's near it, in it and thought about it more than I have and probably will. What are they doing? Do what they do.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think that's another, I've been humbled many, many times, but I think just experience, I think a lot of us, you know, information, social media is still liquid. We see a lot of things. We want things fast, high time preference. But I've been humbled by a lot of the mistakes I've made and there's just something, I mean, I read a lot of books. My father is famous for saying, get in, quit your book shit and put oil in the tanks. Cause I have great theory joke. But, but yeah, that just experience. And I think one of the most, the, you know, in the wake of my dad's passing, it was just so humbling how much he was handling. And, you know, I just had really, I was naive. And I think, you know, I do miss the, the fighting and the just, you know, but we always respected each other.

• 51:04Anthony Pompliano?

  When he passes away and you step in, you take over the, the whole business and you're going to run this thing. Like what is that transition period like? And what I think is interesting, people hear about business transitions. They hear about the second or third generation taking over like the family business. I don't think people quite understand the shit that goes on in this, right? You're usually, especially private companies that are family held that usually they got pretty good records, but maybe it's not as good as a public company, obviously. The teams usually end up deferring to whoever like the patriarch or matriarch of the family is. Like there's these dynamics to it. What was your experience like kind of stepping in to, to run the business?

• 51:44Speaker 02

  Well, we're still, one year in, I'd say we're still deep in a transition, but okay, really, you know, I was very lucky. We sold a deal in 2016, which is when I took time off and got into Bitcoin mining. But I, you know, co-founded this Bitcoin mining company, learned a Ton that I was so unaware of. And then when we sold that, um, and I think like two thousand eighteen, nineteen, maybe. I basically came back to my dad and said, hey, I, and at the same time, I'd gotten an education on company culture. So I was like, hey, dad, I am now equipped with a dialogue or a language. You know, I really want to come back to Choya. You run the whole thing. What, what if we built a, a management team to support you?

• 52:27Speaker 02

  And so really this idea of like, let's build a team to support you. And, you know, my dad was in his seventies and he, years before, he wasn't ready to slow down. But he was really like, when I had that conviction, I had the vision, I had a lot more professionalization, I grew. And so I, I basically pitched him on, let's bring on, let's change company culture, uh, more into, you know, kind of what I've learned, but also, you know, you moving from authoritarian, tell everyone what to do, to give feedback. And of course you can overrule everyone, but just a general, let's shift and get some decision rights off your plate. And he was very open to that. It was hard. We hired a third party intermediary.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  But so luckily before he, and really the goal was a couple of years, he was going to slow down, spend time with my mom and, um, the grandkids, but, um, then he, you know, we found out he had cancer and three months later he was gone. And so it happened really fast. But if we didn't have that management team, if we wouldn't have the foresight, if I hadn't gotten plugged in to stand together, I wouldn't have had the capabilities. If I didn't have the support of my wife, who's, she's actually worked at big companies and is super professional. Um, so she's given me a lot of feedback. But also.

• 53:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Lives are good for that.

• 53:39Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, my wife and I are so values aligned. It's unbelievable. Um, and she slows me down and it annoys me, but it's a good annoyance.

• 53:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  It's, and so really my, my, my dad and I already had officially structured some things in place mechanically, which was, no dividends are going to come out of this company. We're pretty hardcore committed to long-term value creation. So when he passed, there was, it was very clear that, you know, and when, you know, my family and I talked about, hey, Lloyd, dad did everything.

• 54:11Speaker 02

  Do we sell the business? And I think if I wouldn't have met a lot of the people that I've mentioned through this, we would have sold the business.

• 54:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  But I thankfully, my, with my family's support, you know, they were like, let's, let's do this. So really, we decided to double down on, you know, technology and culture and really, really hard things. But my brother Caleb, he'd spent, you know, he was trying to find himself. We're all trying to like run away from our fathers and all that. But, you know, he got some great experience at some other companies and got an MBA down at acting. But before my dad got sick, he was, we called him like chief of staff, but really he was my dad's bitch. Joke. Okay, might need to edit that one out, but I love you. But, but really Caleb coming on, he had skills I didn't have.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  I'm like always, you know, if I wouldn't have been born into a wealthy family, I'd be, you know, a theoretical physicist or a PhD like professor. So I'm very focused on theory and philosophy. That's very fun for me, setting a vision. But my brother had, and my, my dad actually told me years ago, he was very mad at me and he goes, your brother needs to run this company, not you. And you know, that's like kind of hard to hear. But, and I don't know if my dad was trolling me or if he was, you know, 100% confident.

• 55:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Was he right?

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Absolutely. My brother has so many capabilities. I mean, you know, and it's been an awesome example of complementary capabilities. So, you know, my brother's just a better communicator than I am. And he's, you know, he's very focused. I mean, even I was like, I'm gonna go to this other, you know, event here in a couple of months. He was like, how's that, how is that going to create value for Choya? And I was like, damn, I hate hearing that because I love going to conferences. But he's a really good sounding board and, you know, I really respect his opinion and he's gained a lot of the respect. I mean, he, you know, he doesn't have to, you know, none of us have to, you know, continue running the business. We do it because I don't have any hobbies. I like building stuff.

• 56:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  And my, my brother Caleb, but also just the support of my brother Luke. Like I said, you know, I'm really proud of my brother because he's got a daughter, he's leading and, you know, we've had a good relationship for the last year and just even his support and him, you know, showing up to the Christmas party and ask, he's just, Luke comes into my life and just spits mad truth like in college, he was like getting, people are scared of you. And I was like, oh, I thought I was really nice. And he like, you know, the principle of solicit feedback, he's been doing that for a long time. I mean, he says it like it is.

• 56:38Anthony Pompliano?

  But you need people like that in your life.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think soliciting feedback and even, you know, going back to one of the just mind blown aha moments for me was, so I talked about, you know, the Coke organization, Stand Together, how they created immense value and liberated thousands of people's out of jail. So I was at a Stand Together event and I saw Charles and he's got bodyguards around him and I'm kind of slowly trying to say hey to him without getting, you know, making eye contact, bodyguards, make sure they don't shoot me. But I got to just shake his hand and I, and I said, hey, Charles, I'm Gideon. You know, I just wanted to say thank you. And the first step back that night, I was texting and emailing with all your, your organizations and just how much it meant to get that across the finish line. And he goes, oh, Gideon, I really appreciate that. Is there anything I could be doing better? And I was like,

• 57:27Speaker 02

  no, Charles, like you've built massive philanthropic, you've created immense value. All your employees are fulfilled in their job and reaching self actualization. But just one of the most powerful men in the world asking me a kind of a pleb, how can, how can he get better? Just that? So that was like, I mean, yeah. And my wife and everyone in our company always gets annoyed when I come back from these conferences because I come back ready to like, we're not doing enough. How do we do more? But yeah, that idea and, you know, solicit feedback, I think it is because we, it's a slow fade into whatever good or bad things, you know, you don't wake up one day and you're a heroin addict. There was something that occurred decades ago. And so I think that's what I'm trying to get distilled, you know, in our kind of family

• 58:10Speaker 02

  values is solicit feedback. My kids are amazing at it. And I ask them, I think there's like, we can learn a lot. I take life very seriously, but my kids, I always ask them, you know, hey, what could I be doing better? And they're like, just come play. And I've got a, I have a son with Down syndrome and it was really hard to hear that you're having a son, the first one, my son is going to have Down syndrome. That was really hard to hear. But I, I got feedback from another parent who has a child with Down syndrome. They're like, Gideon, you're going to come home someday, really stressed, the world, business, life, whatever. That kid's not going to give a shit. He's just going to want to play.

• 58:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  And I was like, oh my God, like God gave me this gift of this child and like, my son, his initials are MVP, Micah Von Powell. Babe, we made the right decision with that name. But he's the MVP.

• 59:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Was there a debate?

• 59:01Speaker 02

  I wanted to name him Acton Von Powell, V O N. And my wife's like, that is a, that is like German for of, like, that makes no sense. But I'm like, yeah, but it sounds badass. And then, um, so we, but then we settled on, on my guy. I just think that's a cool name.

• 59:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. MVP is pretty good. Pretty good initials.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk about the company culture, because you've mentioned a couple of times, and I know the Cook Industries is very well known for being intentional about creating company culture. What did you learn from studying that organization and those leaders? And then how did you actually change? Because it's interesting, right? You didn't have a company culture that you started from scratch. You're like, this is the way it's going to be. You had to actually kind of build the plane while in flight, which can be much harder than just starting from scratch. So like, walk us through, like, what did you learn? And how did you actually change?

• 59:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll never forget. There's a guy named Dale Gibbons, who was head of Coke Industries HR. He's seen stuff and he's just got so much wisdom. And he was like, all right, Gideon, you gotta go write down your principles, because your principles inform your culture strategy. And then everyone has a culture, whether you know it or not. So when I started thinking about these concepts, you know, of course, I'm like, all right, I'll just copy what Coke did. Well, that didn't really work. So we're a different business. We're more wildcatters, um, you know, and we want to think a little bit, you know, not, we can't copy paste stuff. Uh, so I, you know, started writing and, okay, let's, we want humility. We want respectful communication. But I'll never forget, I wrote down all this stuff. I was like, hey, Dale, I did the hard part. I wrote it down. It's like, oh, Gideon, that's cute. Now you gotta effectuate it. And I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah. What book

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  can you give me? You know? And it's just like, there's experience and, but yeah, so really, what we've tried to do is move away from, I mean, my dad was a, you know, a legend, and he was the smartest guy. So he just told everyone what to do. And I think that's how a lot of, every company starts with kind of an authoritarian type, get stuff done. But if you want to be successful in the long term, I think slowing down and really being intentional with your company culture is the most powerful way. You know, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, bring a team. And so I think, you know, we tried to develop principles that would inform, you know, you set the vision, which is where are we going? The mission ties everybody to the vision, but then your culture strategy informs how you get there. And principles

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  are really the framework to inform that. And so, and it's not just, you know, like we have them written down, but we, again, Hans Elmerich, I asked him for feedback. And he was like, yeah, yeah, getting a company culture is everything. And he was like, I talk about it with my guys. What are examples? How can we get better? But yeah, I think soliciting feedback, you know, respectful communication. We're everyone in the world. We're in very fast changing businesses, our daily lives. And so one of the things that's really hard is to tell someone how they can get better. And so what we try to do is pair up, these are all dynamic, but it's like, okay, invite, solicit feedback, which invites someone, we all know what we're good at. But how do we tell people, you know, hey, here's an area you can improve, which is very delicate communication. And so that's where I took

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  a lot of lessons from my mother, which was my mom would always say, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. And I think that was just like the most powerful. So we talk about respectful communications. And I think there's a book on Netflix's culture and they, what they said was, say things with positive intent. And so I think we try to really emphasize, look, one, everybody should be inviting feedback. How do we get better? What do we, what do we learn from it? But then also, how do we respectfully communicate that is, I think, one of the, because nobody wants to be told what to do. But if you invite in, how do I get better? It's just a lot more palatable. And also just, you know, continuous learning. I mean, that's kind of one of the biggest things. I mean, every single energy company

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  that is not thinking about Bitcoin mining as it relates is wrong. They need to be getting feedback. This is the most revolutionary energy technology. But if you don't have a culture that invites continuous learning, then you're just going, oh, well, this is the way it's always been done. Okay, great. That's what Blockbuster did. Where's Blockbuster? You know, and so I think this is another concept of, you know, creative destruction. Let's invite, let's identify businesses that can and strategies that can disrupt our own businesses. And because I want to know about those before, you know, it becomes a thing. And I think that's where Bitcoin mining is like the greatest thing ever.

• 1:03:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Why do you think Bitcoin mining is so disruptive and innovative specifically for the oil and gas industry? I think a lot of people think of Bitcoin, uh, store value. They think of it as a medium of exchange, that they give it as a speculation tool in financial markets. But you're specifically talking about this intersection of Bitcoin mining and oil and gas being such that this like match made in heaven. Why is that?

• 1:03:48Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Really what Bitcoin mining is, is a lot of things, but it's the democratization of energy innovation. So if you wanted to innovate in the power sector or in the energy business, you needed to be independently wealthy with billions of dollars, or you needed to work at a massive corporation. You're going to work at that company for 10, 20 years. And you know, once you control the purse strings, you know, you're probably not going to innovate near as much. So what Bitcoin mining did is it you leverage several principles, which is, you know, bottom up solutions and skin in the game, permissionless innovation. So anybody globally now can be an energy entrepreneur. I mean, literally, you can have, you know, there are

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  no barriers to entry. You can rub two nickels. And if you can plug in an ASIC, you can innovate. So we are all thrown out. I mean, I remember three years ago, we were like, okay, what's some of the best from a first principles standpoint, what's the lowest cost energy? Okay, it's waves. Okay, well, the biggest, most consistent waves are in the middle of nowhere. Sweet. Let's take the Bitcoin mining there. And then really, there's all these engineering tech. And this is what we were studying five years ago, was there's these engineering technologies that are in energy or energy technologies, but they're, they're engineering successes, but they're not economic successes. And so what Bitcoin mining does is it gives anybody a line of sight to profitability. And so really, like, I like the App Store, you know, before the App Store, if you want to innovate in software, you needed to work at a big oligopoly or get backed by VC

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  or something like that. What the App Store did was it gave it democratized innovation in the software business. So all of a sudden, you had a clear line of sight to profitability, if you could innovate. And so the same thing with the Nakamotar of it basically just sent a private, you know, a signal to the market and said, if you lower the cost of power, then we will give you more capital. And so really Bitcoin mining is the most beautifully savage venture capital company. And it's focused on one thing and one thing only. If you lower the price of power, you get more Bitcoin, you get more resources in your success. And so we're going to see this iterative process play out for the next century usher in a Carter Shev type one society. But really you've democratized it.

• 1:07:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoin is a venture capital fund is not something most people have thought about. Explain that further.

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So this idea was popularized by a guy named Jesse Pelton, who worked on Hollow Ranch with me on the, it really was one of the pioneers of demand response in Texas. So yeah, basically, you know, venture capital looks at what are disruptive things? And then how do we give capital and make asymmetric bets? And, you know, you, there is, you know, everyone wants to go, it's, it's an efficient market. It's not. You gotta know people, you gotta have the networks. So there's all these people that have been disenfranchised because they didn't go to the, you know, high pedigree schools. And so what Bitcoin mining does is it strips out all emotions, all relationships. The only thing that matters is if you lower the price of power, then you get to, you, you

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  spend less on your operating expenses go down, which means your profit margin goes up, which you get more capital from the Bitcoin network through the, you know, the algorithm that releases blocks every 10 minutes. So you get more resources. And so if, you know, you have A over here, they can get power to five cents and B over here, which innovates and gets power down to two cents. Well, B is going to get more profit and has, you know, more resources and then will redeploy that. And so I think, you know, this is, this is very early, but you're seeing it all of us. And now we've got this great, I can literally get on my phone and I unfortunately do this too much. Oh, well, that's a great idea. Who are the experts? Like we were looking at wave stuff three years ago. Oh, they're all like in Europe in London. Okay, great. And I, I literally got on with three of the

• 1:09:27Speaker 02

  world's experts on wave turbines, just like that. And so I think not only do you have liquidity in the capital markets with Bitcoin now, you don't need to have cool relationships, communications. And so I can hop on and find experts on any idea and then, you know, throw shit against the wall and see what sticks.

• 1:09:45Anthony Pompliano?

  You mentioned that Bitcoin will have an impact on civilization as well. Describe what you mean there.

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  How much time do you have? I think, I think, you know, I talk about Bitcoin in two frameworks. One, it's an energy revolution. And two, it's a human freedom revolution. And so if you live, we have the greatest financial markets in America, full stop. And because of that mass, there's a high amount of trust. So the higher trust can be, the more value that's created. There's a company called Trust Ventures. They, that's like literally their concept. Thank you, Brian and Sal. But really, if you can elevate trust, so, but globally, we, that doesn't exist, you know? And so like, you know, Nigeria, Venezuela, you hear about these places. They don't have trust in their financial systems and they can't save.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  So if you, and now with the Lightning Network and other innovations on Bitcoin, you know, if you wanted to, savings is very critical to elevating your family out of abject poverty. But if you're living in an inflationary environment, that's impossible to do because you're always trying to, trying to, saving is easy, investing is hard. And so really what you just did is you democratized savings with Bitcoin. So anybody can stack sats, anybody. All you need is a cell phone and cell phones are super cheap thanks to innovation. And so really you've got all these disenfranchised, developing nations with individuals globally, who now have an opportunity to save and knowing that their, the value they're saving cannot be printed away.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  And so I think this is going to play out over the coming centuries where, you know, America is the land of the free and it was created by dissidents who left the old world. And I, I think there is massive amounts of dissidents globally. And now you've given them the greatest human savings technology, you know, anti-fragile technology. I mean, nobody can shut it down. So I think this is going to play out and equip families and individuals who, and I think that's the beauty and need for education in, in the market of like Bitcoin, unless you're like a Ron Paul audit the Fed person here in America, Bitcoin is, is difficult to grasp. But like, that was one of the greatest things I went, a few of us were invited to the Human Rights Freedom Forum in Oslo a few years ago. And I'd hosted dinners with my

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  American friends. I'd hosted all these events, trying to bring education. And Alex Gladstein, Orange Pill, a lot of people at some of the events I'd host. But it was always like, yeah, but I don't need, it was always a brick wall. But when I went to the Oslo Freedom Forum, and I was like, oh, hey, here's what Bitcoin does. They're like, okay, great. How do I get that? Like, they wanted it. They need it. So innovation happens on the fringe. So I think that's where, you know, the Lightning Network and everything that's happening, the innovation isn't going to happen in America exclusively. It's going to happen where the people need it most.

• 1:12:33Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you think about 20, 30, 50 years from now, what does that look like in the world? Is it running on a Bitcoin standard and it's like hyper Bitcoinization? Is it Bitcoin is a savings technology and people still have other assets that they're investing in? Like, how do you think about it, full well knowing predicting 50 years out is nearly impossible?

• 1:12:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so I have an opinion on the energy side, but on the just broad, Bitcoin is not just a money, you know? And I'll use the analogy, when people came to America, why did America become so powerful? Why was so much wealth created here? And I think you tie it back to property rights. So when people came to America, they could own land. And the founding fathers could never have conceptualized, you know, apps and social media. So how do we get, well, really, we had land. And on top of land, which is like the base layer of Bitcoin, people built farming, people built shops, built real estate. But then they built

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  an LLC, a corporation. Like, these are, those are layer one, two, three, on, you know, of land. And so none of that was possible. And then the internet comes along and supercharged it. So when I think about the future of Bitcoin, to me, it's An elevation of the principles that made America great. And so it is taking, you know, the United States Constitution and enshrining it into code to where it set a vision and it, you know, it gives more clarity and confidence to if you create value in the ecosystem, it'll be mutually beneficial. So I think there's a lot of fascinating, Bitcoin's going to intertwine with all our lives in ways that we can't really conceptualize, but you know, we'll be able to run things

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  in a decentralized manner, you know, on layer two, and I'm even hearing about layer three that's just way over my skis. But on the energy side, you know, all the, taking the, you know, the history of the oil and gas business, I mean, it, one of the most fun things is the oil and gas business was pioneered by the Texans, I mean, full stop. And one of the most fun things is talking to some of these, you know, field guys or, you know, guys that have traveled the world. And really what happened was the training occurred in Texas and then we exported those capabilities globally to where, you know, we were like developing oil and gas reserves around the world, but it was largely led by the capabilities and strategies developed by the Americans and largely the Texans.

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  And so the Bitcoin mind is going to play out the same way where right now Texas is the most important and relevant ecosystem and really goes back to principles. And so ERCOT, and this was so fun, my best job was I got to travel the world, talking about how great Texas and ERCOT is and people are like, oh, it's too hot. It's like, look at physics, you're all wrong. It doesn't matter how hot it is, it's humidity, particulates, but really ERCOT has the most bottom up solutions, free market solutions of any grid globally. And really, when you look at the history, it's like, okay, Texas is known for its oil and gas reserves. What's the largest wind resource, wind production capacity? Oh, it's Texas. Okay, why?

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  Well, it's because there were few barriers to entry and the grid was set up in a way that allowed for bottom notch entrepreneurs with a line of sight. That's not happening on the federal level. That's not happening in other RTOs where they're regulated and they're monopolies. And so you saw this mass value accretion out in West Texas, which is the convergence of the wind and solar belt. And so really, you know, now we got 18 gigawatts of solar being added next year. That, you know, and IRA absolutely did it's in what it was intended to do. It's supercharged the economics of renewables. And so really, over the coming years, you know, renewables have their issues. They're the lowest marginal cost, so they have a place, but they also are unpredictable. And so Bitcoin mining is this perfect load.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  So all the capabilities, regulatory framework and protocols that we're developing in ERCOT. This is, we need, we need, you know, there is a sense of urgency. People want to get plugged in, but you're talking about ERCOT, which is, you know, a lot of people have been hired away. And you've got a convergence of Bitcoin miners needing power, more wind and solar. So huge amount of resources are needed at ERCOT and they're doing the best they can. And they've done an amazing job. And so really everything we're learning on the regulatory framework, we're going to export that globally. And we're already seeing it happen. I mean, there's some innovators in Kenya that are doing demand response. And so that's what I see, you know, but ERCOT, we need to be thinking about doubling the peak capacity over the next couple of decades. And Bitcoin mining is a beautiful way to help balance that out.

• 1:17:14Anthony Pompliano?

  You also told me that West Texas is going to dominate the future. Explain that.

• 1:17:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, when God created the world and put Texas down, he ensured that everything, all resources and, you know, develop, you know, everything was made for commerce and for industry and for high quality of life. And really, you know, you, I mean, I'll never forget when we were thinking about putting a Bitcoin mine in West Texas. It was 2017. Nobody had done that and everyone told us, please don't do that. And we said, we hear you, but we disagree. But I'll never forget, I was trying to get feedback for some of the people because like there were no services. There were no capabilities. We're talking about building in Payo, Texas, which is more than an hour west of Midland. There is very little out there, but the oil and gas companies were out there. They had services, they had capabilities.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  So I did is I called an electrician like five o'clock on a Friday and he called me back around midnight. I was like, hey, thanks for calling me back, you know, but it's late. Why are you calling back? Goddamn oil patch. I'm 24 seven. And I was like, man, that is a Bitcoiner. He just doesn't know it yet. And so there's, it's not, West Texas is going to dominate, not just because of the mass amounts of the wind and solar belt and natural gas. There's these capabilities and these, this culture of be effective and get stuff done. And so really the Bitcoin miners are going to continue to come. And everyone talks about sustainable energy. And its needs, but we have to focus on, is this profitable? Cause that's a critical component of sustainability.

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  And so when you're looking at the hyperscale data centers or latency agnostic data centers, you know, they're running out of resources in Northern Virginia, Washington, Arizona, like you can't, and you know, it used to be 10 megawatts. I remember the first time I told a data center guy, I was going to build a hundred megawatt substation for a Bitcoin mine. He was like, that's the biggest thing I've ever heard of. And I was like, okay, well I, I don't know what's big and small. So that's what we're going to do. But we're moving towards gigawatt campuses in the data center industry. And so really people talk about sustainable energy. They're from a purely on the electrons. West Texas has the highest amount of wind and solar of anywhere outside of a few hydro. So when we talk about, you know, sustainability, we need to be like, I don't know.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  Industry consumes like at least 50% of global energy. We need, you gotta be thinking about sustainable industry. And there is nothing more prolific than the wind and solar and natural gas resources of West Texas. And so as more 18 gigawatts of solar coming on, you know, and it's projected by 2030, there's going to be 74 gigawatts of additional wind and solar in West Texas. And so the Bitcoin miners are going to continue to increase their amount of gigawatts they're consuming. Well, then they turn off when people need it more. And then they're consuming through the troughs when no one needs it. Well, that's going to stabilize the grid, bring on more reliable and affordable energy. And then, you know, the data centers, and we've actually had two different data center companies approach us wanting, and I was like, whoa,

• 1:20:07Speaker 02

  I thought this was going to take a decade, but they're seeing that we can get gigawatts in one location. So, and that's, that's, and there's some other resource constraints over in, you know, a high population area. So you've got this convergence of a, a willing and able workforce. The largest wind and solar resources, a convergence of them, so a high capacity factor. And then Bitcoin miners increasing their penetration rate to be able to effectuate more reliable and affordable power. And I think this is something that's going to take time. So we've actually, we did a, we're in discuss, we did a grant to help on the training for Bitcoin miners. We partnered with Texas State Technical College. That was a grant my wife and I did. And that, that's going to be taking place for just Bitcoin mining.

• 1:20:50Speaker 02

  But the long-term vision, we're already having conversations, is how do we build out the services and capabilities that data center companies need? And I think there's a lot of complementary capabilities. I mean, managing a gigawatt Bitcoin mine and a gigawatt data center are not the same, but they require similar capabilities. And I think that's what's so fun is like, you know, the oil and gas field workers of West Texas, they know how to get shit done. And really, you don't need a college degree to be a technician at a data center, but it pays really well. And so, you know, talking about the roughnecks, one of the hard things about being a roughneck is you're always chasing the drilling rig, you know, and you're on all the time and you're missing your kids' events. And it's a hard life, but you're doing what you gotta do to survive.

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  So the idea of we can put a Bitcoin miner, a data center, and all of a sudden that's stability, that's economic development, that's jobs that is going to be coming to West Texas. I mean, that's like, I do this job for free. And I, and I think that's what's going to play out. Again, there have literally been data center companies that have approached us, like, whoa, whoa, we're, we're not ready, but like, let's have a dialogue. Like, how can we get better? What can we do to like, ensure this happens? And, you know, state agencies and other philanthropic groups, we're all getting involved in, again, ensuring the resources are ready in the coming five years.

• 1:22:04Anthony Pompliano?

  You mentioned earlier that you read a lot of books. I pride myself on reading a lot of books as well. How do you pick what books you're going to read next?

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  Well, I used to read a lot of self-help books. And I'll never forget, I was in Midland and it was Friday. One of my friends called me, he's like, where are you? And I was like, oh, I'm at the bookstore. He was like, oh, God, what aisle? And I was like, self-help. And he was like, idiot, like, please. So I try, I read less self-help books. I'm reading one book on coaching that I really like. But I'm really interested in stories now. I think as I've, you know, I'm not old, I'm only 35, but as I've gained wisdom and experience.

• 1:22:39Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm 34, you're old as shit.

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  I was gonna make a joke about my wife, who's a beautiful, anyway, I will not make that joke.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  But.

• 1:22:54Anthony Pompliano?

  What kind of stories?

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  People that have overcome adversity, you know, I think it kind of goes back to, I don't know if you can see it, I got a chip on my shoulder.

• 1:23:04Speaker 02

  But I, I think.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  There are so many cool people in this world that didn't have the chances I had. And I wanted, I, seeing my dad die. I, it really re-architected my mind. And I want to be involved in a small way of, you know, really ensuring, like, and going back to like when I was arrested, you know, I was in a really dark place. You know, the internet people are mad and all that, and you got people hate, but my dad looked at me and he said, you messed up, but I love you. And so, and I think, you know, really just stories of the underdogs who had people that believed in them. I think that's one of the coolest things. And so I think, you know, thinking about, okay, we can continue to start foundations. How do we start businesses? That, you know, and I have this, I bought this one picture.

• 1:23:52Speaker 02

  Of a buffalo and my dad, as he was passing, my brother-in-law. Shared this story about when a buffalo sees a storm, they don't run from the storm, they run into the storm. And I, so anyway, like the buffalo has, we have socks that say into the storm. It's just become this really good story. And my dad took cancer head on and. But really I bought this painting or this picture of this buffalo. And, you know, I showed it to one of our geologists, Mike Dropkin, and it was so fun because he brought a new light to it. I was, I liked the picture of the buffalo because it's standing in the snow and it's miserable. And I think that's what, you know, when there's chaos, when you're in a fender venter, Bitcoin's collapsing, oil's collapsing, that's really hard.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  But if you can be peaceful and reflect in those moments, you can create a lot of long-term values. That's why I bought it was to show this buffalo, just in the, clearly in a snowstorm, being peaceful and, you know. But what Mike talked about was like, see the snow on its head? That's because a buffalo will see a white landscape. And then they'll go put their head in the snow and they'll ruffle around to look for patches of food. And I thought that was a great metaphor for how we can approach people. If you were to, you know, meet someone, you don't know that person's story. So how do we slow down in society and really get to know, you know, people's stories, you know, humanize individuals?

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  And I think that's a huge opportunity for businesses and venture capitalists and private equity is to like, look, do you check the box? Maybe not, but get to know people, spend time and understand this guy overcame adversity. Like, you know, I was meeting with a guy earlier who literally came from India, knew no one and got himself into college and then got a master's degree, knew no one. And his parents, you know, like, didn't, you know, immensely help. He, but he came to America and he struggled to get in venture capital. And for what, I'm not exactly sure on the reasons, but it's just like, I'm sure it's difficult. He's got an accent, but he's brilliant. He's ambitious. And he, and you know, it's funny too, because he really wants to help people. And he didn't even,

• 1:25:59Speaker 02

  you know, growing up in India, he didn't know venture capital was a thing. He didn't, he was like, oh, I thought only rich people invested rich people money in other rich people friends. And he was like, then, so he was on course to be an engineer and he, you know, he is a degree engineer. But then he discovered venture capital. He's like, this is a, and he didn't use the, you know, the word mutual benefit when I first met him, but he's like, he can help people in a for profit mutually beneficial way. And so anyway, that's his vision is he wants to start or join a private equity venture capital firm to give guys like him opportunities. And even though, I mean, I'll go on a rant on immigration, it's insane. We disincentivized immigrant entrepreneurs because you have to be beholden to like the, you know, the HB one visa and like, I mean, there's tons of

• 1:26:44Speaker 02

  technology individuals getting laid off. They have 60 days to find a job or they have to leave the country. That's insane. America was founded by immigrants. That is a terrible top down policy. So any politician that's listening, you've got to reexamine that. How do we have bottom up solutions and ensure that the right people are coming into this country? But how do we? We equip to allow for, I mean, those are the, the OGs of entrepreneurs are the people that overcame adversity. And then that translates, you know, if you, you know, came here, you overcame adversity. That translates incredibly well to running a startup, you know, and same thing. I think that's where same thing with criminal justice reform. You know, I think a lot of Bitcoiners are familiar with Ross Ulbricht. I mean, look, the guy made mistakes, but he's admitted it and he's rotting in jail.

• 1:27:27Speaker 02

  That's fucked up. That is hor- that is egregious. And there are so many more people like Ross that are sitting in jail that could have been on, that were entrepreneurs. And I think that's one of the things, my dad, I saw him love the oil business and that was my North Star was find something I'm passionate about. He had a business and that affected me, but for the individuals in society who grew up seeing someone sell drugs or whatever, that's all they know. So to lock those people in prison is an egregious violation of human rights. So I think there's an, I think history can, you reflect on history and you can look at who empowered the dissidents. America empowered the dissidents. We created a lot of, lot of wealth that way and huge mistakes were made. So how do we continue to look at who's the most disadvantaged in society and how do we empower them?

• 1:28:12Speaker 02

  I think, you know, the Black Lives Matters push, uh, uh, kicked off a few years ago and I'm already seeing a change in media. Like they got out, they said, hey, there's not enough of us representing society. I mean, I watched like 10 trailers the other night. Every single one of them had a hero, um, that represented the black community. And I think that's the power of the vision. So I think criminal justice reform, empowering those people behind, you can't even start a business if you're in prison. That's wrong. Like people in prison should be able to start a business that could benefit their families. I mean, they can learn to code, to program. I think it's the same thing. So I think empowering immigrants, powering, you know, individuals that made mistakes. I think that's, that is a one way to unleash prosperity and mutual benefit through society.

• 1:28:55Anthony Pompliano?

  It's a fascinating idea for, uh, people sitting in prison with a bunch of time on their hands, lots of opportunity to spend time learning, uh, to trying things, right? If they could start businesses.

• 1:29:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I've, I've actually, you know, a few of us, uh, very, um, individuals that really want to effectuate change. Uh, we take a playbook from Silicon Valley. If you don't like something, you can try to operate in that framework. And I think, you know, like Uber did this, they're like, okay, can we compete with the taxis? I don't know. Let's just go do it. And so I think that's one of the most fun things we've been talking about for years. And I, it was one of the most fun checks I've ever written in my entire life. A few of us a few years ago decided prisons are messed up and we can spend millions of dollars and not change the laws. What if we started our own prison company? So I literally set out to start a for-profit prison company, which people hear that and they're like, "Oh, for-profit, that's bad." It's like, look, do you know what the incentives

• 1:29:48Speaker 02

  are? The for-profit prisons are incentivized to keep you in prison. They make money the more people that go to prison. And so there are huge unintended consequences. So it's not our for-profit prisons bad, our nonprofit prisons bad. It's culture, it's strategy, it's incentives. So one thing, a few of us, this was not my idea, we came, a lot of us were like, "What if we started a for-profit prison that it wasn't paid per individual? It was, if we lowered the recidivism rate of that individual, we got a delta on the backend of that profit." And I think that was like an interesting KPI. So a few of us had that idea, and then a few got feedback. A few of my friends were like, "Look, idiot."

• 1:30:32Speaker 02

  And this was pitched to a few very wealthy individuals that everybody knows, and they all turned it down because of optics. It's like, "We can't be seen investing in a prison deal." I was like, "Look, I'm getting pal, I don't give a damn. This will effectuate human prosperity. Let's figure out how to do this thing." So just been putting that idea out there. And a few months ago, I got introduced to Brian and Social Profit Corrections, SPC. And it was so unbelievably energizing. He worked at a prison, he saw the atrocity, he kept trying to get more resources to the mental health. Because basically, we all feel sorry for kids in trauma when they're kids, but then they reach a certain age, and it's like, we keep feeling sorry for them and we throw them in jail. And so I think that's where one of my proudest investments. And so anyway, Brian pitched me on a, hey,

• 1:31:15Speaker 02

  so he registered as a 501(c)(3). And I was like, "Look, I really want to do this as for-profit." He was like, "Here's why that's a bad idea." And the optics. And so, but he was like, look, and this is when I was like, oh God, I have to write this guy a check and I love it. He's like, look, Gideon, as a nonprofit, we'll have a lower cost of capital. So we'll be able to out compete all these for-profit companies that are bidding on contract. And I was like, oh my God, I'm not supposed to do this, but okay, here's a three-year commitment, $250,000 a year, let's go. And people know.

• 1:31:44Anthony Pompliano?

  And so how does it work? It's a nonprofit prison?

• 1:31:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's an operating nonprofit, 501(c)(3).

• 1:31:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. And there's a physical location, obviously?

• 1:31:52Speaker 02

  No, not yet. So that was another thing is it was like the architecture, we need to reimagine. Like, look, yes, people messed up and that should matter. But when you walk into a prison, how the, how do you design a building can absolutely affect your mental disposition? So what Brian, what my long-term vision is to literally buy raw land and build, you know, prisons from the ground up with an intentionality towards, you know, getting extra sunlight, making it. And this is not something you'd start, you know, you'd start with low-level offenders and learn. But it's like day one, when someone shows up to a prison, we want that person to know, look, you messed up, but you're a human and you matter. And to have, you know, these capabilities within the prison.

• 1:32:34Speaker 02

  And that was another, you know, I was very angry. I wanted to change society. And so I was like, okay, when I, when I can have financial resources, I'm going to hire attorneys and represent nonviolent drug offenders. And that was, you know, kind of why we got involved in, uh, with Brittany Bardette and the Buried Alive Foundation. But people used to say, well, Gideon, and rightfully so, people had concerns over that. They're like, well, what happens when they get out of prison? And I used to say, I don't give a shit. Let's just get them out. Not a good answer. And that's where you've got to think multi-dimensional. It does matter. How do we get every, everyone who shows up the resources and the opportunity to better themselves? And I think that's what Brian's vision is, is he's worked at a prison. Like, I'm a nerd who has an idea.

• 1:33:18Speaker 02

  Ideas are cute, but there's way too many of them. How do you execute? So Brian has operating capabilities. He's layered in some mental health capabilities. And I think that's what I'm most excited about in the next multi-decades is the convergence of criminal justice reform and mental health. Something that's very passionate to my wife and I. And so I think, you know, that's that was Brian's vision was like, and nobody, nobody wanted to be the first check. Everyone loves to follow. And so really, my experience in Bitcoin mining and trying to raise money a little early was nobody likes to be the first. So I think that's informed my, I think one of our capabilities is like, if we can see your vision, you have complementary capabilities and shared values. Like, let's go. And so anyway, we wrote a check to Brian. He's been traveling. He's meeting with other investors.

• 1:34:03Speaker 02

  But yeah, he wants to day one, and I've been teaming, I've been connecting him. Just, just send him on emails. Hey, here's a mental health professional, the Meadows Foundation. They are the experts in mental health and how do we get better? And, you know, I mean, mental health, you're dealing with multi-generational trauma. That's what largely is feeding the industrial prison complex. And so that's what Brian's gonna do is he's looking to win a contract and manage a prison. And there's a huge need for that. And so, and even he was like, he texted me like, hey, there's a prison for sale up in this area. I was like, great, let's try to buy it. Like, I mean, what, what can we do? And so that's kind of where he is. He's up and running. He's trying to bring in more investors.

• 1:34:44Anthony Pompliano?

  What is it called?

• 1:34:45Speaker 02

  Social Profit Corrections. I think it's like spc.org.

• 1:34:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that's pretty, pretty good.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's awesome. And it's just a slight tweak, you know, it is, it's not a for-profit. But it's going to create mutually beneficial value through society. So writing that check was like one of the just awesomest things. It's mutually beneficial. I'm a nerd. I want, I want to try crazy shit. And I want it to work in the long term, but I can't do that myself. So I think that's the beautiful thing about communications, share a vision. It was the same thing on that deal I did, my wife and I did for education. I was on a panel at a Bitcoin Commons event in Austin. I said, hey, I don't know how to build education stuff, but we'd like to support something at a college or a high school or whatever. And then a few months later, someone was like, hey, we hear you like this idea. I was like, okay, great. Y'all have capabilities. I don't.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  So yeah, just putting ideas out there. There's the, there's plenty to do in this world.

• 1:35:39Anthony Pompliano?

  There's a hell of a lot to do. Where can we send somebody to find you on the internet if they want to find out more about what you're doing in energy with Bitcoin mining? Or with some of the philanthropic work?

• 1:35:50Speaker 02

  I tweet, so Gideon O. Powell, and then I also post a lot of memes on LinkedIn.

• 1:35:57Anthony Pompliano?

  You're a LinkedIn meme maker.

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, and if anyone at LinkedIn or Microsoft is listening, y'all guys don't support GIFs. That's a huge problem. And additionally.

• 1:36:07Anthony Pompliano?

  You're a thoughtful meme maker.

• 1:36:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, we have to, I think, and I parent with memes. I think memes are so powerful. There's a lot of stuff I struggle to communicate sometimes, but I can, I can effectuate very clear way of thinking with, you know, my mematic art. And so I think there's a lot, a lot. You know, I never forget, I was at some Bible study and this guy was like, oh, kids these days are ruining the human language. And I'm like, well, we used to like paint, and he was like talking about how we went from pictographs to, you know, spoken word and written language, and now we're going back with memes. And I was like, dude, I don't know if you've ever made a meme, but like, it can communicate things so amazingly more effectively. So yeah, so LinkedIn, support GIFs, that's a huge deal, but also your user interface, like y'all, y'all can't,

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  when I try to post a meme, I have to dig all the way through my whole picture album. I can't go to my various meme categories. So I think a better user interface. If you, but again, if, you know, if you'd like feedback, holler at me.

• 1:37:06Anthony Pompliano?

  It just empower the meme makers and you'd be in a better position.

• 1:37:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:09Anthony Pompliano?

  I say it all the time, the memes are the message, right? And, and

• 1:37:14Anthony Pompliano?

  if you think the world's richest man, or one of the top three richest men in the world is probably one of the most lethal meme lords, Elon Musk, and whatever people think about him, he was asked in a Bloomberg interview a couple of years ago, would you rather be a billionaire or a meme lord? And of course, it's easy for a billionaire to say meme lord, but he chose meme lord. And I tend to think that you can have a billion dollars, but not everyone can make just a fucking awesome meme.

• 1:37:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think that's gonna, I'm, I have several business ideas I want to start around memes. Caleb, I'm not starting them this year, but there's, there's so much opportunity to take, you know, from the sports industry and capabilities there and apply them to memers. I think there's a lot, there's just so much to do in this world, but, but, um, yeah.

• 1:38:03Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. Well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. I learned something every time I've talked with you. And I tend to think that we need more people like you who believe the bottoms up, individual approach to problem solving, the incentives, and really just kind of the continued embracing of the American democratic ideals is incredibly important. So I appreciate all the work you're doing and we'll definitely do this again in the future.

• 1:38:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, appreciate the platform. So, thank you.

• 1:38:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to transition into a brand new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to thecryptoacademy.io. My team and I have been working with the top HR teams in the industry to develop an intensive three-week training program with over 50 live events. We teach you exactly what you need to know to break into the industry, including live interview prep and resume review. Our students have been hired at over 75 of the world's best Bitcoin and crypto companies. Go to thecryptoacademy.io to learn more. Again, that's thecryptoacademy.io. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you share it with your friends and I'll see you all for the next episode.