#1087 Chess Grandmaster Andrii Baryshpolets On Artificial Intelligence, War, and Critical Thinking

Andrii Baryshpolets is a Chess Grandmaster and has a PHD in Economics. In this conversation, we discuss the path to becoming a grandmaster, computer learning, cheating, Bitcoin & Crypto, and books and resources to become better at chess. Andrii also gives us insight into the Russia, Ukraine war as a Ukrainian and shares his thoughts on the macro economic environment. ======================= Exodus is the world’s leading browser, desktop, mobile, and hardware crypto wallet with support for over 230 cryptocurrencies. Founded in 2015 to empower people to control their wealth, Exodus has delivered a multichain Web3 Wallet – connecting you to Ethereum, Solana, and Algorand Web3 apps directly in your browser, with more networks on the way. Visit exodus.com/pomp today to download. ======================= If you’re trying to grow and preserve your crypto-wealth, optimizing your taxes is just as lucrative as trying to find the next hidden gem. Alto IRA can help you invest in crypto in tax-advantaged ways to help you preserve your hard earned money. So, ready to take your investments to the next level? Diversify like the pros and trade without tax headaches. Open an Alto CryptoIRA to invest in crypto tax-free. Just go to https://altoira.com/pomp ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= Amberdata provides the critical data infrastructure enabling financial institutions to participate in the digital asset class. We deliver comprehensive data and insights into blockchain networks, crypto markets, and decentralized finance. Download our Digital Asset Data Guide at https://www.amberdata.io/pomp ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Even better? Eight Sleep recently launched the next generation of the Pod. The new Pod 3 enables more accurate sleep and health tracking with double the amount of sensors, delivering you the best sleep experience on Earth. Go to eightsleep.com/pomp for exclusive Labor Day savings through September 11th. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia ======================= Crypto wallets and browser extensions are outdated, limited in features, and don’t meet the needs of today’s Web3 users. Core, the free, non-custodial browser extension built by Ava Labs, is more than just a wallet. Core is packed with features that give Avalanche users a more seamless, and secure, Web3 experience. With Core, any crypto user can easily swap assets, display NFTs in a beautiful interface, and store your assets in a Ledger-enabled wallet. Plus you can put real dollars in your Core wallet in just a few clicks. Go to www.core.app to access the full power of Web3 on Avalanche! =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Andre Barish-Politz is a chess grandmaster and has a PhD in economics. In this conversation, we talk about chess, talk about machine learning, artificial intelligence, cheating. We talk about things like Fisher Random chess, crypto, Bitcoin, the best books if you want to get better at understanding the game of chess, and also how he thinks about the macroeconomy, different financial assets, and given that he is Ukrainian, what's going on with the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  I really enjoyed this conversation with Andre, and I hope that you all enjoy it as well. In this episode, there's a ton to get through, and one of the key themes is the idea of critical thinking, which is obviously an important topic. I really enjoyed this conversation with Andre, and I hope you guys enjoyed it as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I first want to talk about our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Exodus. Accessing Web3 across multiple networks just got a hell of a lot easier. Exodus is one of the most popular crypto wallets for mobile and desktop, and they just added Chrome and Brave web browsers to the lineup. The new Exodus Web3 wallet is a multi-chain browser extension that lets you safely navigate Web3 and DeFi apps on Ethereum, Solana, and Algorand from one wallet. You can manage Mint and Sell NFTs

• 1:30Anthony Pompliano?

  on multiple networks in that same wallet. You can swap Sol and ETH tokens natively right within the extension, and if you ever hit a snag, world-class customer support is available 24/7. More of your favorite chains are on the way, so run, don't walk, to exodus.com/pomp to download the Exodus Web3 wallet right now. That's exodus.com/pomp. Go check them out today. This episode is brought to you by Alto IRA. They can help you invest in Bitcoin and crypto in a tax-advantaged way. That helps you preserve your hard-earned money. Alto's crypto IRA lets you invest in Bitcoin and over 200 other different coins and tokens, and it has all the same tax advantages of your traditional IRA. There's no setup For account fees and it's all you need to do invest in crypto tax free.

• 2:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Let me repeat that again. You can invest in Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies tax free. So are you ready to take your investments to the next level? Diversify like the pros and trade without tax headaches. Open an Alto Crypto IRA to invest in Bitcoin and crypto tax free. Go to altoira.com/pomp. That's A L T O I R A dot com slash pomp. Start investing today. This episode is brought to you by LMAX Digital, the number one institutional crypto exchange. They offer clients the deepest pool of liquidity and they have 100% uptime track record through all the volatility spikes. LMAX Group's liquidity relationships and ultra-low latency technology means that LMAX Digital is the market-leading solution for institutions across crypto trading and custodial services.

• 2:59Anthony Pompliano?

  LMAX Digital, secure, liquid, and trusted. Go learn more at lmaxdigital.com/pomp. Again, that's lmaxdigital.com/pomp.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:32Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. Not every day that I get to talk to a chess grandmaster and I thought a great place to start is how many hours do you think that you have obsessed over the game of chess to actually reach the level of expertise that you now have?

• 3:49Speaker 02

  Well, that's a tough question, really. I've never counted those hours. You know, maybe I will go a little sideways. I played tennis a little, but I was so bad in it also. But I just remember that my coach, he said that to master the game, you probably need to make 1 million hits. And that just, you know, around numbers just to say like, okay, you can claim that you know how to play tennis if you made one million kills, but in chess, it's really difficult to say how much time it takes for a person to become a grandmaster. Years wise, well, it took me since I began when I was eight and I became a grandmaster when I was twenty-two, so you can have like fourteen years.

• 4:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. How many hours do you think you were playing per day between like ages like eight and fifteen? So kind of when you were younger and you didn't have lots of other life responsibilities, like how many hours would you play?

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Well, not many to be honest. So for me, it took like maybe like two, three hours a day and that was sufficiently enough. I would say that the more important here is intensity with which you do this. So it's not about like regularly training, but rather to successfully play in the tournaments, to constantly improve yourself. And in terms of chess, it's really maybe unique sport in sense that you really don't need to practice it every day to keep up the form. It's pretty much okay not to play, let's say for three months and then quickly pick up the game in a couple of days.

• 5:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. How much better are grandmasters than like the top players, right? So for the people who actually are a grandmaster versus everyone else, is it an analogy that you could use to explain to people just how much better at chess you are than the average player?

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Also, there is no unique measurement, you know, so it's really difficult to compare, but, but, you know, the difference is obvious if you, if you put a grandmaster versus some random player, definitely we would see the difference in how the game evolves. And probably it's again, it's easier to make a comparison with some spectacular sports like, let's pick tennis again. So when you, when you see like how Federer plays, right, or Nadal or Djokovic, definitely their level is way better even than, you know, many professionals. So let's say. Well, also, it's difficult to compare because in tennis, you don't see those top guys

• 6:18Speaker 02

  encounter amateurs, right? So you don't see this often. In chess, it is way more common because in any regular tournament, in open tournaments where you have like around 600 players, it can be the situation that you have, let's say, like 10, 20 grandmasters and pretty much everybody else, ranging from the beginners to people of international master level, people who are experienced players who played, let's say, 10, 20 years, 30. But really, the differences is really subtle from the outsider point of view. So if you never watched chess, for you, it would be difficult to say like, why the guy is a grandmaster, why he plays better.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  But yeah, probably, it's something that you would experience once you see it. Maybe I just can recall a recent, like, kind of exhibition games, just friendly games with my teammates from work, and they really were amazed, and I was humbled to hear a lot of saying that, yeah, it's really amazing to see how you play chess, because our thought process is very different from what we see how you play. Because they just see that, for me, it's effortlessly to make a good move, and for them, they just don't understand how it happens that fast. And the answer is pretty simple, right? Because once you've played it for many, many years, it's quite easy for you to do it, right?

• 7:42Speaker 02

  So just imagine, like, let's say, you learn some new language, and for you, it would take some time even to memorize some words, right? And then it takes some, you know, time to recall them. But for a person who speaks, you know, this language for all their lives, it's quite easy.

• 7:58Anthony Pompliano?

  So one of the pieces that I've always wondered is like, for a grandmaster, how much of it is memorization of opening moves and kind of a lot of the muscle memory just comes from, I've played so many games, I've seen this already, I know how to handle that situation, versus, no, actually, there is a kind of a new computation that is occurring every single time you're playing a game?

• 8:21Speaker 02

  Luckily it's both, uh, so definitely memorization, it takes a lot of part in professional chess and also in amateur chess, especially nowadays when computers are extremely strong and the theory of openings, it evolved tremendously. Uh, I would say like, uh, over the past like ten, twenty years where computer, when computers became really strong. That's why in professional chess, definitely memorization, it's a very big part of the battle. But luckily, it's not all, so you cannot win just by memorizing the lines. Because definitely, at some point of the game, uh, it turns to the point where you need to, uh, to work yourself. And if you don't have the necessary skills, if you don't have, uh, experience and understanding of what to do in the position, then it wouldn't work.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  And again, luckily, uh, in chess, those occasions, they're, they're, they're pretty much in every game. So your preparation for the game, of course, it takes a lot of hours because you need to memorize a lot of stuff. You need, you, you, you normally try to predict what your opponent would do. And, uh, you, you just try to memorize the lines that you've already seen probably, or, or you try to prepare something new that you've never played, but for, for this specific opponent, you need to, uh, come up with something new. Uh, but nevertheless, like, well, once you get into the game and you, you began playing by your plan, then you see like suddenly your opponent just changes his mind, or, or probably they just decided to, to play something that you

• 9:50Speaker 02

  you just didn't take into account. And then you need to, to begin your own thought process. And, uh, that's why, uh, luckily it just accommodates both styles. So there are players who, uh, really, they don't memorize anything. So they, they, they just play by intuition and they prefer to, uh, try to avoid their opponent's preparations. And that, that, that's also sufficiently fine for, uh, for amateur chess. But of course, for, in, in the professional world, if we talk about like, uh, top guys, uh, it wouldn't work. So you, you need to combine both, you need to be, uh, prepared, uh, with memory, like psychologically, also emotionally, you need to be. Really good chess player in many, many ways.

• 10:34Anthony Pompliano?

  How much of the game in person is psychological? Like, can you psych out your opponent? Not necessarily with the moves on the actual board, but are there things that you see in competition where there's almost a game off of the board that's happening?

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, certainly. It's always there and chess is extremely psychological game. And of course, if we talk about pandemic and online chess that became popular over the past few years, things changed a little because when you sit over the board and you see your opponent, you see her or his face and you understand that what kind of thoughts are inside of the person. That really helps you in some way. So you can be aggressive in terms of some moves that actually like, yeah, you asked about like move wise or not move wise. Actually, over the board, it also makes sense. Sometimes you can bluff. You can do not really the best move, but the move that would be the most unpleasant for your opponent

• 11:33Speaker 02

  or maybe unexpected.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Like off the board, it also matters. But ultimately, I would say just personally on my feeling, for my career, it didn't matter that much. Because also chess players, they like to focus on the game and on the essence and on the board rather than try to outplay opponents off the board.

• 11:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. How many games could you play at one time, whether online or in person? Is there like a number that you feel really comfortable? Four games, eight games, 12 games? Like, how do you think about that?

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Well, I've played Simos in my career, of course. And over the board, I think it was like 25 kids whom I played at once, which is reasonable number. Definitely, I'm not sure there is a limit. So I think I would easily play like 50, 100. It doesn't really matter. What matters is timing and those kind of things. And of course, the level of the opponents, it matters a lot. Because when you play like kids who just begun playing, then it's easy. You can play maybe even 1,000 games. I played, yeah, I played kids who were not new, so they played already, you know,

• 12:47Speaker 02

  three, four, five years and they're quite tough to beat, but still I managed, I remember the simul, I managed to beat all of them. And normally in simuls, that's how I do. I just, you know, beat everyone. I'm merciless in this sense because I think that, you know, you learn a lot from those simuls. I also remember myself as a kid and I played those simuls against grandmasters and I enjoyed them a lot, though I also lost myself. But that's my approach, that once you lose, you can learn from your mistakes and that's the biggest source of your improvement. Online wise, I think I played like around twenty, twenty boards and twenty games and that's also just adequate number. And I think it

• 13:32Speaker 02

  just depends on the number of people who would like to encounter you in the game.

• 13:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it sounds insane when you say that you could play a hundred simultaneous games. But to your point, if you're simply just concentrating on the board that you're looking at in that moment, and you're playing somebody who has lesser skill than you, then there's advantages that you obviously get. Are there certain things outside of just playing chess for hours, you know, per day, that you can attribute to actually getting better and eventually reaching grandmaster?

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. Actually, playing is not the only source. Mostly it's reading books. Chess literature is extremely prolific with how, you know, some say that actually chess literature is the biggest among any kind of literature, which is difficult to really comprehend. I mean, in sense of, let's say, science. So, books and physics, if you count the total books that, you know, the humanity produced over the years, it would be surprising to discover that actually chess books are way more by the numbers, by the just rough count of how many books were produced. So really, there is a lot of literature and...

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Of course, to that, training camps, it's extremely important to have coaches, people who would tell you like what you're doing right or what you're doing wrong on every stage of your career. And even professional guys, they do have coaches. Though like, let's say if we talk about the very best, the world champion Magnus Carlsen, he has a lot of people who help him, who help him in preparation, in psychology and many other aspects. So it's literally like, it's in any other sport, you see that, you see a professional player playing, but at the same time, behind the scenes, there are just enormous team of people who support this performance.

• 15:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you share tips and tricks and secrets with other top players? Or is it very kind of taboo? And if you're a good chess player, you don't want others to know all your secrets?

• 15:36Speaker 02

  To some extent, of course. You know, if you follow chess, you would immediately see that normally chess players, they don't want to elaborate a lot on their preparation and say like, "Hey, okay, this is something that was prepared a long time ago," or "This was my full thought process during the game." Normally, we see, yeah, there are interviews and commentaries after the game where, you know, when players, they share their thoughts, but they do not sincere 100%, that's for sure. And of course, there are some tips and tricks that every chess player uses. And normally, yeah, it's something that we just get used to.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  We do not share it unless with our teammates and our coaches. For example, if it's a team competition, definitely, we can exchange our ideas. Let's say to play against some opponents, what are their weaknesses and those kind of things. Or in terms of opening preparation, that's also important to kind of discuss it in teams. Definitely, it's, you know, the famous proverb that one head is good, but, you know, two heads are always better.

• 16:49Anthony Pompliano?

  When I think about chess today, I would put myself very much in the amateur category, but I'm fascinated by aspects of the game, including kind of machines. I'm interested in the kind of global nature of the game and how chess, people who have mastered the game of chess, think outside of chess itself and kind of what it teaches you from a kind of logic standpoint. If we think of machines, two of the areas that I find absolutely fascinating is, one, the rise of artificial intelligence or machine learning. And so now we have humans competing against computers. And if, you know, somebody has a mobile app on their phone and they're playing against kind of a low-grade computer, if you're good at chess, you can pretty much set the difficulty level, you can beat it over and over and over again.

• 17:34Anthony Pompliano?

  But what I've started to see now is that there are a number of models or machines that are defeating grandmasters and people who are very, very good at chess. And so how do you think about this introduction of kind of more sophisticated computers into the game of chess? Is it good? Is it bad? Do you seek them out to play them? Do you get frustrated? Like, how do you think about it?

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Well, I frankly have mixed feelings because, you know, I have my phone and it, well, I'm not sure if you can see it, but, but anyway, it's, it's really awful feeling when you just cannot beat your phone. And, and actually, I, I was lucky that I raised it at the times where, when computers were not that strong. And back in that days, we didn't even have smartphones. So there was no even question whether you can beat a cellphone or not. There was a famous story when Gary Kaspar was first beat by a machine back in the end of 90s. He lost to Deep Blue and it was quite a big deal at that time because arguably it was

• 18:34Speaker 02

  a turning point in chess history when a machine really beat the human. Now, of course, we see a tremendous progress of... Computers and of course, machine learning techniques involved in that, it's really something amazing. When AlphaZero, which is arguably also the best chess engine ever, based on, you know, machine learning algorithms, once it kind of released, I really couldn't believe it happens because I thought it's some kind of fake or scam

• 19:12Speaker 02

  because the performance of AlphaZero was so much better than traditional engines that we have in chess. That really also was kind of a revolution in the game. But nowadays, indeed, we as humans, we just cannot compete with computers. It's like, literally like trying to run a 100-meter race against a supercar. Because the computational abilities of computers these days, they're enormous. And also, the algorithms of evaluation of positions and how to approach chess, it's very different in terms of technologies these days.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  That's why computer preparation nowadays, it weighs way more than it was, let's say, 10 years, 15 years ago. Not saying like 25 years ago, or maybe like, let's say, if we talk about before computer era, 50, 70 years ago, which arguably was also a golden era of chess. When people really, they competed over the board. Now, we definitely can say that modern chess players, that they not only compete over the board, but they also compete in their home labs when they have a lot of assistants, they have a lot of computers, various approaches to positions, to openings.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  And there is also a question, who has the strongest computer? Though again, as I already mentioned, luckily, the question, who is a better chess player? Luckily, it's not only about who has better home preparation and who has a stronger computer. So still, you can beat the guy with the strongest preparation just by because you're more talented. And that's really cool. But just getting back to your question, how I really feel about it and how it really affected the... The kind of the approach to chess. Um, really, in, in, in a way, it feels bad when you know, you, you get into trap. You know, you know, when you just play with a kid who, who really just put everything in the computer back home.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  And you cannot outplay them right from the start, just because your preparation is no longer better. Because back in the times, uh, you know, becoming a grandmaster takes to reading a lot of books. And you, you're very knowledgeable in, in openings. Now, there is no such advantage exists. Uh, literally, anyone can just open their, their computer, put the chess engine on. And they're going to be experts as you are. So really, there is no need to, to, to have access to grandmasters to, to get some sense of the position. Uh, these days, uh, computers, they suggest literally better moves and solutions compared to human.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  And that's why it became very different. Uh, though still, it's, in, in no way, it means that chess is in deep trouble. And we were just ending up seeing computers battling themselves, not at all. Uh, still, uh, we're running at the same hundred meters, but you know, among humans, not, not with supercars.

• 22:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think that computers will just play each other? Like, is there a time where, whether it's tournaments or, uh, for just entertainment purposes or whatever? Like, we'll just see computers competing against computers and humans will just be spectators?

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Well, actually, it's already there. Actually, you probably weren't aware of this, but there are tournaments between computers and there are all those competitions. Though, you know, I myself also, I must confess that I, I don't follow them because it is quite boring. When you see a normal chess, especially for me as a kind of semi-professional chess player. It's really a lot of pleasure to watch, uh, how, how people play chess. But for me, there is little pleasure to see how machines try to meet each other. Uh, of course, I, I occasionally I come across the games and I see like how they play and how they. You know, approach positions, approach ideas, but it's really completely different field.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  And but but there are tournaments and I'm not sure when they begun, but I I would say that they begun as long as chess engines were released, so. Let's say just if you put some timestamp, like beginning of 2000s, that's probably the time when those tournaments among chess computers, they they begun and they keep on competing nowadays. That's how we discovered that also machine learning based computers, they're they're stronger than traditional engines, but but of course it also requires to to kind of adjust the the computers in terms of computational power, because

• 24:07Speaker 02

  apparently if you have more cores, if you have, let's say, as as as we say, like, yeah, more pheromones to that than the computer would be better.

• 24:21Anthony Pompliano?

  When when you think about the rise of these chess engines, how prevalent is cheating? I'm assuming online, there's lots of quote-unquote cheating, depending on how you want to characterize that in tournaments or whatever. But does that also spill over into kind of physical tournaments as well, in-person tournaments? Or how do you think about cheating in in the chess world right now?

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, it's it's actually, it's it's a big topic. It's a big topic and a lot of debates in the chess world around it, because really, there is a great fear of cheating, simply because it became so, so easy. And and again, it's it's just as easy as just just having a phone, right? So because you know that the phone plays better than you and you literally can improve your game just looking at the phone. Right? And that's why cheating, it it became widely available, and that's why. Also these days in the tournaments, it's really a must for the organizers to like make sure that all the anti-cheating measures, they're in place.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  And just, just a day ago, it was a huge scandal, and it's still a scandal, we're kind of, I mean of this chess drama, as we call it, that world champion Magnus Carlsen, he withdrew from the tournament, which happened the first time in his career. And supposedly it is related to, to some suspicions that the guy in the tournament who actually beat Magnus, just a day before Magnus withdrew, that he cheated. Uh, though there is no any direct evidence as far as I know, and, and that's a big problem indeed, and that's, that's a huge debate,

• 25:59Speaker 02

  uh, what to do in future, because if we admit that it's so easy to cheat and perform way better than you are, then, yeah, difficult to say that we can compete on the track field, not against supercars, but also there is a problem that, in, in a way, it became a witch hunt, because also people who apparently they do not cheat, uh, but they perform extremely strong for various reasons, and of course, if we talk about young players, it's really possible to gain strength quite quickly, as in any other sport, right? You see like a fourteen-year-old kid, just doesn't know how to play, I don't know, let's say football,

• 26:41Speaker 02

  but then in two years, it's a superstar of NFL, right? So that's, that's quite common. So in chess, it's exactly the same. And that's why we see that youngsters, they rise quite fast, and then, of course, since we know that in our computer era,

• 27:02Speaker 02

  you know, some miracles, they might happen, not because you're a talented player, and not because you put a lot of effort in the game, but just simply because you found a way to cheat. Regarding the line tournaments, it's even worse, because when we play back at home.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  It's really difficult to prevent people from cheating. Though, of course, in the professional chess world, we know that we don't cheat. For example, I myself, when I play another grandmaster in an official tournament, let's say it was a students league,

• 27:36Speaker 02

  I know that we don't cheat because it's kind of holds a professional ethic. We were raised in a completely different mentality. It's just simply not acceptable to cheat. Because also for me, like, let's say if I talk about myself personally, it's really a red line. So, once I begin cheating, it means that I'm not a chess player anymore. Because when I play chess, I enjoy not only beating the opponent, but I enjoy making the best move and finding it myself and being proud of myself performing well in chess. So, imagine, I mean, let's say you, again, let's pick tennis, right? So, if you play and beat Rafael Nadal, then you can be proud of yourself.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  But would you be proud in the same way if you cheated? If you used, you know, some doping or medicine or did something unacceptable? It would be completely different feeling. So, in terms of getting enjoyment from the game, it's really not acceptable to cross this line.

• 28:44Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think about cheating, a lot of people will talk about the chess engines. What about things that people ingest? So, you know, some people would argue, "Oh, you drank coffee, I didn't, you can focus better, or you have better concentration." I don't think most people would say that's cheating, right? That would just be, "Hey, you drank some coffee before the match." But are there instances in chess or things that are top of mind right now? Whether it's Adderall or other types of things that people could be taking and ingesting to actually give them an advantage in playing?

• 29:16Speaker 02

  That's actually excellent question because there was also a lot of debates around that pretty much all the time and the answer is quite simple that actually there is no kind of prohibited substances or that there is nothing that is not acceptable. So it's not like in athletics where you see that, you know, they just summon injections, they're just not accepted because it's a violation of laws and then what they just would would would come after you. In chess, there is no such thing and it's up to you. You can drink like 10 cups of coffee and still it's it's not clear. Like first of all, why it happens because it's not clear how it affects your your

• 29:59Speaker 02

  brain. Definitely, we know that, for example, coffee is a big stimulator, right? But at the same time, it's not clear how it really helps to perform over the board. And for some people, it really adds up to their strengths for for some others, it might not. And even scientifically, there is no direct answer if, let's say, eating something during the game, it would boost your performance or not. That's why, like, apart from really using technologies and computer cheating, there is no such way to cheat in any other way. Let's say by drinking some some liquid.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Well, we see that normally it's the accepted kind of perception of that that it will help.

• 30:50Anthony Pompliano?

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• 31:35Anthony Pompliano?

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• 32:19Anthony Pompliano?

  eightsleep.com/pomp and you get $150 off when you use code POMP. This episode is brought to you by Core, the free non-custodial browser extension built by Ava Labs, which is more than just a wallet. Did you know that you can also bridge Bitcoin natively across the Avalanche Bridge and take advantage of the thriving DeFi ecosystem in that community? With Core, any crypto user can easily swap assets, display NFTs in a beautiful interface, and store your assets in a ledger-enabled wallet. Plus, you can put real dollars in your Core Wallet in just a few clicks. Go to core.app to access the full power of Web3 today. I've got a friend, Evo Marinov, who is one of the top players in the world at one-minute

• 33:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Fisher Chess. And when I told him that I was going to speak with you, he sent me a quote from Bobby Fischer, who basically was talking about the invention of Fisher Chess. And for those that don't know, it's basically the board starts out with the pieces scattered in a random formation. And then if you play one minute, it obviously adds the pressure of the time. How do you think about some of these other chess games that have been invented over time, either to cut down on memorization or cut down on specific advantages that people have? Is it something that you enjoy playing? Do you just stick to kind of more classical chess? How do you think about these games?

• 33:37Speaker 02

  I personally, myself, I will begin with the second part. I myself prefer classical chess. Though I very much respect Fisher Random chess, I also enjoy playing it, though of course I don't play it as much as classical game. But to add to that, I would also say that one-minute bullet game, it's also completely different universe of chess. And I would say in general that I see that we have really different variations of chess and playing like one-minute online, it's, in my understanding, it's really not the classical chess, because I was raised as a chess player under completely different circumstances. When you have a chess position and your goal is to

• 34:20Speaker 02

  find the best move, find the best plan, and you're normally not restricted in time, so your goal is not to to find the best move in five seconds. And why I'm saying this? Because some positions in chess, they're as difficult as for, you know, finding the solution, you might need like at least fifteen minutes. And back in the old days, people trained, you know, for some positions, puzzles, you you might spend even hours trying to find the solution. And that's really kind of also another way to enjoy chess when you really literally spend hours and hours trying to analyze one position and trying to find the solution. And you still cannot find it. So it's like, you know,

• 35:05Speaker 02

  puzzles for mathematicians also. They, in a way, they're similar, but with different approaches. So, but back to questions with other types of chess, I of course, I do respect that chess evolves and I do respect bullet chess, though I'm not personally myself, I'm not a fan of it. And one-minute Fisher Random, frankly, I haven't seen it. So I probably need to, you know, spend some time to see it, because I'm pretty sure it's amazing, since Fisher Random indeed, since the position is not trivial and you're seeing it for the first time, right from the opening, right from the beginning of the game, you need to Approach it very differently.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  And for that, you absolutely have to have some time on the clocks to just get into position. For example, personally, for me, it would take definitely more than one minute just to realize, okay, where the pieces are and what would be the best setup of how to begin the game. But hearing that people can play an entire game in one minute with Fisher random, it's really amazing, but definitely it's not a surprise for me. And I also appreciate seeing people do it.

• 36:18Anthony Pompliano?

  I refrain from ever playing with him because I couldn't tell you where the pieces are in one minute, just like you. So it is quite impressive. Talk to me about the International Chess Federation. Obviously, the elections recently happened. You were running for president. Talk a little bit just about that organization, the current leadership and why you had chosen to run.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Yes, this decision to run for myself, it came very unexpectedly. This idea just came to my mind around the end of April, around the time when the current incumbent president, Arkady Vorkovich, he declared that he wants to get reelected. And for me, it was completely insane and it still is. It's still terrible to see that the current leadership of International Chess Federation. And it's actually a long story. And for the background, actually, there were always perception that chess is kind of a Soviet game. Why it happened? Because apparently Soviet Union was dominating chess for many years,

• 37:27Speaker 02

  since like, let's say, 1950. And what happened was International Chess Federation in 1995, we got elections where Khrushchev, who is a Russian politician, he won the elections. He was not from the chess world. So he came unexpectedly to kind of rescue the chess world after the crisis that happened after 13 years of presidency of Florence.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Campomanis, who arguably was a KGB spy or something, like was a KGB agent, actually. And, for example, Gary Kasparov, who is probably one of the most famous chess players of our generation, like many generations, actually. He claimed that international chess organizations, in a way, it's under control of KGB. And it has been like that at least since 1982, when Campomanis was first elected. So the story evolved that in 1995, when Ilomzhinov became the president, he put some money into the theater. He's a businessman, and in a way, he kind of rescued the organization. That's also the perception.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  But still, there were a lot of scandals and all kinds of bad things. And eventually, it turned out that Ilomzhinov, he has been the president until 2018. So for 23 years, we had the Russian politician running the organization. Ilomzhinov, he was actually famous for three things. One of them, that he, according to himself, he was abducted by aliens, which is pretty cool to have, you know, the main representative of the chess world abducted by aliens. Then, he was famous for his wizards with a meeting with all the best people in our world, like Muammar Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Bashar Assad, and those kind of things.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  And what I'm trying to say that, apparently, the chess federation was not about chess only, which, of course, is a huge shame. So chess federation, for many years, was more about politics, and it was an instrument of Russian politics for those years. And unfortunately, it still is. And finally, in 2015, Ilomzhinov got sanctioned by US Treasury for his ties to Syrian government and Syrian bank. And eventually, he actually tried to get re-elected in 2018. And that was his intention. And what is really unfortunate about it, that the system is built in the way that it's really

• 40:01Speaker 02

  almost impossible to beat the incumbent president. And however, the incumbent, as it was in the case of Ilyinov, he easily won all the elections. For example, 2006, we had a really great competition. A very well-known chess organizer, Bessel Koch, from Netherlands, he competed with Ilyinov. And of course, all the chess world, and especially Western chess world, we had high hopes that finally the federation will become modern, democratic, and progressive. But guess what? Ilyinov won just easily back in the days. Then in 2014, Garry Kasparov himself, he ran against Ilyinov. And he put a lot of resources and efforts to become a president, and yet he lost also

• 40:45Speaker 02

  quite convincingly, simply because it's really not possible to kind of beat this corrupted system. Because whoever is the president, you know, Ilyinov had all the possibilities to travel around the world and talk to delegates, federations. Eventually, he had everything under control. So what happened in 2018? Arkady Vorkovich, who is a Russian politician, who has extremely prominent career in Kremlin, he's been for many years close estate to Putin himself, to Dmitry Medvedev when he was president. So Vorkovich, he was deputy prime minister for six years. He was advisor to the president also for many years.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  And you can imagine, in 2018, the guy who has little to do with chess, despite his father, he was an international chess arbiter. But that's the only connection that Vorkovich has to the chess world. So the guy, just three months before the elections, he comes in and says like, "Oh, yeah, I would like to run for the presidency, and I would be good to be the president." And at the same time, Oleg Zinov, he withdraws from the elections, he declares full support to Dvorkovich. And why it all happens? Just simply because Dvorkovich has enormous support of Russian government. Financial support, political support, and all kind of those things. And eventually, Dvorkovich won those elections in 2018.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  And now, 2022, the elections that we had just one month ago. In April, I just realized that this time, we're just on the edge of not having elections at all. Because really, nobody wants to contest this, because also, many people just understand that it's just hopeless. You cannot beat such machine, especially when, again, the Federation is fully under political control of Russia. Moreover, of course, what added spices to that, that the situation is completely different from what it was in 2018 or 2006, 2014, when, again, we were talking about chess.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  But now, we're probably not the only one. I think in boxing, it's, in a way, it's a similar situation in boxing Federation, that we're a sports federation that is run by Russian politicians. And of course, it's not only a big shame for us as chess players, as chess world, to have such representation. But also, from the practical point of view, it's quite difficult to attract any sponsors. So if we say that we, the International Chess Federation, that the main goal of it is to globally promote chess, how on earth we can do that if no sponsors would like to sign any contracts?

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Merely because they know that for themselves being in any way associated with Russian politics. And now we see what Russian politics actually means. It's not only terror inside the country, now they're just bringing terror outside of their country for actually many years. And this full-scale invasion in Ukraine is just... Which happened in February is just another round of this external aggression of Russia. And from a practical point of view for us as a chess world to have Dvorkovich, which has close ties to Kremlin and say that and pretend that nothing happens and we still can can talk about chess, not about politics. It was quite, I mean, difficult to even think of

• 44:15Speaker 02

  that. And that's why it drove my decision to to enter the competition myself and say like, okay, hey, if nobody in the world really wants to to say the right things and and, you know, compete against this system, then I would do this. And that's how I ended up in these elections. And I'm really, you know, proud of my efforts. And I'm really happy that, you know, so many people, they landed support because also what happens in the chess world, many understand that things are not going the right way. Though not many are willing to do anything because they they just see that it's it's hopeless. So we just got used to to being run by Russian politicians. And it's been for 23 years

• 45:00Speaker 02

  with Lermzhino. And now it's after four years of Dvorkovich, we were saying like, okay, we have like another four years of Russian politicians being in the office. And we pretend that nothing happened. Which is of course, I mean, at least disappointing, to say the least.

• 45:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. One of the things that makes this an even more, I think, kind of sensitive topic for you is you obviously are Ukrainian and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, while not directly related to anything in the chess world, you're bringing up a number of things where it may not be as black and white, as is it related, is it not? How do you think about the Russian invasion of Ukraine? And as you speak to people in Ukraine, who I'm assuming you still have family and friends there, what are they telling you about the actual situation on the ground?

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Oh, well, it's also a very large topic. And of course, I do have a lot of relatives there, friends, pretty much all my life in Ukraine. And though I live in the US for the past seven years, still I'm very much Ukrainian. And it's just to say it's heartbreaking for me to see what happens. It's just the least I can say. Of course, I'm very much outraged. It's really not kind of imaginable to see that in 21st century, one country just can declare that another one doesn't exist.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  And it's kind of our artificial kind of nation or something. Some of this nonsense that Putin tries to and Russian propaganda tries to put in justification of what they do. It's really, you know, shocking to see. And I think my feelings, of course, they are more sensitive. And of course, I see things differently. But but at least I, how to say?

• 47:01Speaker 02

  Well, to me, it's good to see that we have a lot of support. It's really amazing to see that we are not there by ourselves in the battle. I see that literally all the same people in the world, they understand that it's not right. Really, we would prefer to talk about chess, about, you know, I don't know, politics, sports, finances, economics, culture, those kind of things, but not talking about war and, you know, suffering of people. And what Russia actually does these days is just a complete horror because it's really difficult to put other things out of context, including chess as well.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  And of course, I do not kind of hide this, that my biggest motivation to run for either presidency was also driven by the fact that I just couldn't stand the idea that we're still OK to have Russian politicians and we're still OK to pretend that nothing happened. Uh, because really we see that, you know, why Russia needs it. Why it's important for them to be part of the civilized world. To say like, okay, hey, guys, we're in the chess, we're in culture and politics. We're like having some negotiations, talks, play sports. But at the same time, we can freely invade other countries and make just really terroristic attacks

• 48:29Speaker 02

  for no reason. And that's what Russia keeps on doing all these six months of this invasion. They're not doing like as they claim that it's a special military operation against some Nazis. It's just all complete nonsense. What they do, they just target civilian objects. So many people are dying for no reason, including actually Russian soldiers.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  And it seems that for Russians it's acceptable. They say like, oh, okay, yeah, we just keep on, you know, thinking of other things like, you know, playing chess or something. Uh, so yeah, but just getting back to your question, of course, all what happens, it's a huge shock. And of course, on the personal level for me, definitely. And I wouldn't exaggerate if I say that it's a big shock for the entire world. Because now we all see and witness how indeed cruel and how bad this authoritarian regime in Russia is. Because prior to that, it was all kind of hidden. Though it's like, on my personal view, it happened not in February.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  It actually happened a long time ago, pretty much when Putin came into power in the beginning of 2000. Uh, because we know of invasion of Georgia in 2008, annexation of Crimea in 2014. Also, we know all those spy operations and all those scandals when Russian intelligence assassinate people around the world. Like in London and Berlin and in Doha, Dubai, like also interference in US elections. And the world seemed to be okay with that. They say like, oh, yeah, I mean, that's really bad, but it's politics. We just keep it aside. Uh, but now, now the world is indeed shocked to see that another round of this aggression against humanity.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  It happens in Ukraine, when Russia declares, oh, yeah, we just, you know, per se our some interests and.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, we we have the right to do what we do, which is, I mean, it's really abnormal. And again, I will probably repeat myself in that, that it's really heartwarming to see that we have a lot of support. Ukrainians really appreciate the help of Western countries, the United States, European Union, which actually, and many other countries that are united against this idea that we can let it go and say like, okay, hey, Russia is still a big country, we're still, you know, afraid of them and let them do whatever they like with their neighbors.

• 51:03Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up with President Zelensky? Like, I think most people in the US, they never heard of him before. And just this past week, he was literally ringing the bell to the US stock market. He was on national financial television. He's been on the cover of Vogue magazine. He's obviously spoke directly to Congress. And he's an individual who obviously, as the leader of Ukraine, was on the international stage, right, to some degree. But given the situation and the conflict here, he has now risen to a level of international prominence that I think many people have been surprised by. What do Ukrainians kind of think about the role that he's taken in all of this?

• 51:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say also, like, normally, I don't like generalizations because, you know, Ukrainians are also very different. And it's difficult to say like, okay, hey, like, all Ukrainians, they think the same. And of course, we're still even amid war, we have some people who appreciate his actions or some of his actions and so on. But of course, in general, here probably I would generalize, yes, Ukrainians are very proud of Zelensky and including myself. I wasn't a fan of Zelensky when he became a president in 2019. And also for the background, he's a comedian actor. So he's not a professional politician and never been into politics. But he's very famous in Ukraine.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  He was, and that really helped him to become a president. Because people in Ukraine, they were also disappointed with probably previous governments. But anyway, to your question.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Indeed, he became, to some extent, a national hero because he refused to flee from Kiev, which is just, I mean, just the best decision ever, I would say. And of course, I praise him for that, for his courage, for his also bravery and all the actions he does. And of course, amid war, I personally, I lend all my full support to what he does. And I really admire what he does. And his all efforts to raise awareness, to increase

• 53:20Speaker 02

  help, to solicit help from other countries, it's really what we need and what we hope for. And Ukraine is really united for our leader. And if we talk about political leader, of course, Ukrainians, they're very much united in their support to army forces. We donate a lot of money from all over the world. Also, it's really amazing to see, and for me personally, I witnessed that humanitarian aid and support have been flowing into Ukraine for those past six months, just millions of tons of aid. And even here in Los Angeles, where I'm based, we don't have a big diaspora of Ukrainians, but we're still very much united

• 54:04Speaker 02

  in our support to Ukraine. And we do all we can in various ways. And what Zelensky does, appeal into global community, it's one of the ways to help our case and finally stop Russian aggression and push all the occupants out from Ukraine.

• 54:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it is, it's pretty incredible to see how quickly he's been able to get that message out. And obviously, most of the people in Ukraine that I've spoken to that either lived there before, saw family and friends there, or live somewhere abroad, seem to be pretty appreciative of his efforts. Talk to me about kind of the market, the financial market. You have a PhD. In applied economics and chess, obviously, is something that you're very well known for. But you kind of have this whole other life and have a ton of kind of traditional education. But also I know a lot of interest. How do you see kind of the macro environment right now? And then maybe more specifically for this audience, a lot of people care about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. And do you have any thoughts there?

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I will probably also break your question into parts. Of course, especially of the topic of Russian aggression in Ukraine. It's also pretty much obvious, I guess, to the audience that world economy is shaken because of that. And simply because Russia is quite a big country, though not that much large economy. Ukraine is also one of the biggest suppliers of agricultural markets. Apparently, they're shaken. And we see that the stability of the entire world economy is under a threat. Well, maybe it's a little exaggerated, but definitely we see that there are huge fluctuations.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  For example, you can see it on a gas station, right? So gas prices over the past months, they were fluctuating pretty badly. And we've seen that the increase in gas prices were unprecedented in the times. And of course, prices for energy sources, they are one of the biggest drivers of the global economy. And until this war is over, until we stop Putin, it's still going to be shaken. Difficult to get back to the stability because, again, the modern world has changed. And now we see that it became truly more global.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Some people, they might think like, hey, it's kind of a regional war that we're really far from it. And why would we care about it? But in fact, we see that there are so many interconnections, so many global companies that operate in.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  Different continents that really the economy became global and in this sense we have like or like what eight billion people but still we are very much interconnected by any such things and that's why we see that the those shakeups of economy they they're driven by by this war. And and you see like many brands they they exited Russia, of course, investment environment in Ukraine is is really an import situation because of because of the war. So that's why it's it's really difficult to predict what happened because the station still is not stabilized.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Uh, go go going back to your part of of cryptocurrency financial market. Uh, also for me, I I would also put a disclaimer there that I'm not a big expert. The way I I do have a PhD in economics, it's still doesn't make me a big expert in the field. Though though I I would say that also financial markets and that that's my personal view, they they're still very much driven by their real economy. And then again, it's it's it's really very much related to to the first part of question that was those global shakes in in the economy with disruptions of many supply chains on many goods. We'll see that the restructuring of economies, it would take time.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  And and I really hope that the war will be over and Ukraine will get victory soon. And then we will be talking about new reality in sense that

• 58:37Speaker 02

  in a stable environment, how we gonna be building up not only like political relationships and those kind of things, but also how to rebuild those supply chains and and how they're gonna be reflected for for the economy. Uh, I would just make a just a humble prediction that, you know, once we go over those

• 59:00Speaker 02

  kind of shocks that we see, uh, the the economy will be kind of rebuilding pretty quickly. And of course, I'm not talking about Ukraine, but pretty much the entire world. So once the energy prices are stabilized, uh, we we can kind of, you know, slowly progress to kind of a more stable environment, I would say in this way. And

• 59:25Speaker 02

  Okay, if we go back to cryptocurrencies, also it's quite a big topic. I would just say that it's, to my point of view, in a way it's a niche market and it will be this way for quite some time and I'm not really sure that it can become more global in terms of presence in financial market.

• 59:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it feels like a lot of folks who are into technology, obviously, are into Bitcoin cryptocurrencies, but also there's some interesting parts of our conversation today. Russia, Ukraine, obviously lots of people talking about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies along with other technologies. If you think of the chess world, there's actually been a number of people in the chess world who are very interested in these assets as well. And so I tend to think a lot about how usually a financial asset, I'll take real estate as an example, it ends up being somewhat isolated. You're a real estate investor or you're not a real estate investor. It's in your portfolio or it's not. But you don't think about like, I like real estate and therefore I also like, you know, chess and this and this and this.

• 1:00:35Anthony Pompliano?

  But in some way, kind of Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, it does seem to attract a certain type of audience that is receptive to it early, right? So maybe that's like an early adopter type thing, maybe it's people who like math and science and technology, there's a lot of different ways you could cut it. But it is fascinating to see how quickly in, you know, 13 years or so, an asset that literally didn't exist, now all of a sudden has this global brand that regardless of the language, when people see that, you know, orange bee, they know what it is. And it's something I'm fascinated by. I don't think we fully understand yet, you know, kind of how this has happened and where it's going, but it definitely is different than I think anything that you and I have seen in our lifetimes.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I I absolutely agree with that. And yeah, I also like your notion that indeed it's it's kind of bubbles, right? And I think like the the direct comparison is is probably social media and and and also what what happens like in like information wise, right? So we we really, we again, we kind of think that we we see the global picture. In fact, that's not really true, because many people indeed, they they see the the part of it depending on their bubble. And as you say, like, for example, if you're a real estate investor, then yeah, you you you have some expertise in that. But but if you're not,

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  then you just have no idea what goes on there. Right? So, for example, just talking about real estate here in in California, where I live now for just slightly over than one year, I'm I'm amazed to see that the the the real estate prices, they they they keep on rising. That's that's really interesting, since many people who are not not really, you know, experts in that, they they say that, hey, it's a it's a bubble. It's it's not possible to see that, you know, prices that they've been rising for more than 20 years. And and now, even in the midst of pandemic, when many people actually, they

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  live California, right? Because technologies also allow us to to work remotely. Still, we see that real estate prices, for some reason, they they keep on rising even more. So that's why, yeah, it's it's indeed, you know, many questions to that, what kind of bubble we're focusing on.

• 1:02:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. When when I think about you, and you have so many different interests, how do you describe yourself to people? Do you tell people, I play chess, I'm a grandmaster? Do you tell them, no, I'm into economics? Is it just, I have multi kind of fascinated interests? Like, how do you think about your own identity?

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  It's quite combined, you know, I like, in the chess world, I like refer to myself as a semi-professional chess player. Because obviously, when people hear that I'm a grandmaster, they, they think like, wow, apparently the guy spent all his life in chess. Which is, which is not really true, and I'm really, you know, thankful to chess that it allows not only focus on the chessboard and chessboard, but also not compromising with, with your chess career, it allows you to do some other things. I spent a lot of time in education, and of course, doing my PhD, it took me six years to, to accomplish this milestone. So referring to myself, it's difficult to say, probably I would just quote my mother,

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  who likes to say that life, it's, it's just multitasking on various levels. And then you need to be, you know, a good family member, you need to be a good professional in what you do. You need to, you know, like your hobbies and so on, so. I, I would say, yeah, I'm very much chess player, of course, though I don't play chess professionally, and I don't coach professionally, though still, I'm very much proud of my chess career, and I'm a chess player, and, and of course, at the same time, I'm an economist. And professionally, that's what I do, mostly economics.

• 1:04:46Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. I love it. I want two recommendations from you. The first is on chess literature. Is there one book or one piece of information that if somebody is like, hey, I want to get more serious about chess, that you would highly suggest they go and, and read?

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  Also, tough question, because I guess, you know, as in any other field, that there is no unique advice. There, there is not something that would say, hey, like, just, just read one book and you will become an expert. You know, such a book doesn't exist, but though, for, for the beginners, those who just begun playing chess, or who played just, just a little, I normally like suggesting a book of, by Kostorul Kapablanca, who is, who used to be a world champion, as far as I remember, fourth or not, third world champion. So he, he wrote a book, which is called like.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm trying to recall the name, but it's pretty much the book for beginners. It's all like, you know, self-taught manual for chess players. And why I like it? Because it really has different steps, how you understand the game. So let's say if you're a beginner, you can just open the book on the first pages and it explains you, you know, how pieces, how they move. Then later parts of the book, they explain very well the basic concepts. What means center in chess, how to develop pieces, what plans are more effective than the others. But of course, this is the book for the beginners, for people who are more or less advanced

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  players, the approach would be completely different. And to that, I would say, general suggestion is just to read literature as much as you can, I mean chess literature, and of course, play the game, because that's ultimately what drives people to like the game, not only, you know, study it, but also play it and enjoy it. Because after all, chess is a game. It's not only a science, not only a way to, or like, let's say, way to self-improve. It's also a game that you enjoy.

• 1:06:59Anthony Pompliano?

  That's awesome. And then the second piece of recommendation, if you will, if people want to learn more about what's going on in Ukraine, is there one place that you would send them to kind of learn more so that it's not just from the American media or international media? Like, is there a source that you go to to check?

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  That's actually excellent question. And I myself, I'm maybe lucky in this sense, because, you know, I have access to various information. Of course, I do read and follow closely Ukrainian sources. I read like official statements, journalists, as well as, since I know Russian, I've been following Russian news for many years, and I know Russian propaganda, and I've been witnessing how different the reality is. And you can imagine that, you know, being in Ukraine and seeing like what, how Ukraine portrayed the, you know, some occasions or some things that happened.

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  Seeing like what western media say about it and seeing how Russian propaganda portrays it, then you're amazed, wow, like it's just a complete difference. You see like, for example, again, you have like a white pawn, right on the chessboard, and you know that it is a white pawn. But then you see that the perspective, how people see this white pawn, it's very different. And that's why it's, for me personally, it's really,

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  how to say, shocking to see indeed how full this propaganda in Russia, how effective it is. Because once you're told that this white pawn is a black queen, and everybody tells it to you from every TV channel you switch, then you begin believing in it. And then you just don't have any critical thinking. So my general advice would be just not to focus on one source, but to see various sources. And frankly, I've been seeing it here in US as well, that people, they just focus on like, hey, we're watching, let's say, Fox News, or we are watching CNN. But my approach and my suggestion would be, no, you guys better watch both of them, then you watch other experts, then you watch something else.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  Then definitely you need to listen to people who are producing those news. So let's put it this way. So to hear what they say and what they think. And ultimately, you just make your decision on your own, who you believe in, what makes more sense to you, and so on. That's actually how you improve in chess, because, again, if we switch back to the chess topic, you can read one book and it will tell you that, okay, this is the good opening. Then you open another book and it will tell you like, oh, that's a complete nonsense. Then once you turn on your chess engine, it will say a completely different story. But ultimately, what makes you a professional, what makes you to understand things, it's your critical thinking. What you believe in and what you see when you look at the board.

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  In terms of how to perceive what happens in Ukraine, definitely, my suggestion would be to not limit yourself to one source. And just check as much as possible. If you have access to international media, if you know other languages, that's really helpful. So just check what people say, also be very critical to that. That's also very important, because we see that, and I've been facing it a lot, that, you know, some people, they really trust whatever they're told. And of course, it's been the case for all the times of history, I guess, that, you know, the lies can be everywhere.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  It doesn't mean you need to trust whatever the first source you hear. Definitely, we're very critical because you would be amazed when you see Russian propaganda, you see the world completely different. And you're like, wow, I mean, maybe that makes sense, or maybe it doesn't. Then you begin also questioning yourself. And that's why I'm saying that, you know, limiting yourself to one source, it's quite dangerous because then you might begin questioning some things like, you know, like a white pawn, right? You can say like, well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe indeed it's not a white pawn, it's something else, or something like that. So, yeah, that's, again, it's a very general advice, but it's, I think it's very much needed.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  So just remember that you shouldn't focus, you shouldn't limit yourself to one source.

• 1:11:27Anthony Pompliano?

  I love that that's the way you answer the question because I always say that there's a critical thinking crisis underway globally. And the ability to consume lots of information from different sources and then kind of synthesize it and think through it is an important skill and probably one that we should develop much better in young people around the world. I've really enjoyed speaking with you today and I think you're so fascinating in terms of all of your different interests and the level of success that you've achieved. If people want to follow up with you or they want to ask further questions or follow your chess career as it continues, where should we send them? Is Twitter or is there some other place that you think is best to send people?

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  Twitter is completely fine. Also, I would suggest checking my PDA website campaign, which is fightforchess.com.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Though it's not very active apparently after the elections, but still, there is a lot of information on myself, on the team that I managed to build up in just, you know, a few months of this campaign. I'm extremely proud and humbled to see so many experts being by my side because we share the democratic values and everything. Uh, yeah, Twitter is perfectly fine, although I'm more active on Facebook. Uh, where you can also find me by my first and last name. Uh, I also prefer, that's what I do in chess as well. I prefer to use my real name, uh, not like, you know, some, uh, uh, uh, uh, as in chess, we, we have a joke like it's like, you know, you, you play some, uh, pepperoni cheese or something, some, some nonsense.

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  Uh, apparently that you, you play a, a nickname instead of playing a real guy. Uh, so yeah, Facebook, Twitter, uh, again, fight for chess.com. Those are perfect sources to, to reach out to me.

• 1:13:15Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. Chess and, uh, in the Bitcoin world, plenty of, uh, pseudonymous names that, uh, make you laugh is, uh, is one definite similarity. Awesome. Well, listen, thank you so much for your time today. I really enjoyed it, uh, and I think people will get a, an absolute, uh, a lot of learning, uh, and also a lot of interest, uh, kind of out of your experience and, and our conversation today. So, thank you.

• 1:13:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

• 1:13:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to transition into a brand new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to thecryptoacademy.io. My team and I have been working with the top HR teams in the industry to develop an intensive three-week training program with over 50 live events. We teach you exactly what you need to know to break into the industry, including live interview prep and resume review. Our students have been hired at over 75 of the world's best Bitcoin and crypto companies. Go to thecryptoacademy.io to learn more. Again, that's thecryptoacademy.io. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you share it with your friends and I'll see you all for the next episode.