#1052 Chase Perkins On Building On Bitcoin’s Layer 3

Chase Perkins is the Founder of Impervious.ai. In this conversation, Chase helps to explain what Bitcoin's layer 3 is. We also discuss the brand new browser that Chase & Impervious are building on top of the Lightning Network, the expansion of the Bitcoin Network, and how Bitcoin will begin to integrate into our daily lives in the coming decade. ======================= BCB Group is the leading payment services partner for the digital assets industry. BCB Group provides payment services in 30+ currencies, FX, cryptocurrency liquidity, digital asset custody and BLINC, which is BCB’s free, instant settlements network for the BCB client ecosystem. Find out more by visiting bcbgroup.com/pomp ======================= Exodus is leading the world out of the traditional financial system by building beautiful and user-friendly blockchain products. With its focus on design and user experience, Exodus has become one of the most popular and loved cryptocurrency apps. It’s supported on both desktop and mobile, allowing you to sync your wallet across multiple devices so you can have access to your funds anywhere. You can instantly exchange around 100 different cryptocurrencies straight from your wallet. Interactive charts let you view an asset’s price history and your portfolio’s performance over time. And maybe the best part, Exodus is integrated with the Trezor hardware wallet - making advanced security easy for everyone. Visit exodus.com/pomp for your free download or search Exodus on the App Store or Playstore. ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/Pomp to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, and the UK. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Chase Perkins is the founder of Impervious.ai. In this conversation, we talk about the brand-new browser that they're building on top of Bitcoin and the Lightning Network, what the consumer will be able to do, why incumbents aren't competing yet, and how the world will change if Impervious is successful. I really enjoyed this conversation with Chase, and I hope that you guys enjoy it as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I first want to talk about our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by BCB Group. With a dedicated focus on institutional payment services, BCB Group provides business banking, cryptocurrency, and foreign exchange

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  market liquidity for many of the world's largest crypto-engaged financial institutions. BCB Business Accounts allow businesses to load fiat currency and cryptocurrencies for payments, operations, and trading purposes. BCB's clients can trade FX and cryptocurrencies quickly and at scale with market-leading value. BCB's Blink Network is the European crypto industry's first instance settlements network, and one of the first real-time payment networks of its kind to allow free, real-time transactions across fiat and digital currencies. BCB's vision is to empower the global financial revolution through sustainable and innovative banking. You can find out more by visiting bcbgroup.com/pomp today. Again, if you want to learn more, go to bcbgroup.com/pomp today.

• 1:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Exodus, the world's leading desktop mobile and hardware crypto wallet. They offer beautiful, user-friendly blockchain products that sync across all of your devices, making it easier to send, receive, and exchange over 150 or more crypto assets in one place. And with world-class customer service available to you 24/7, Exodus always has your back. But the fun doesn't stop with staking and trading. They recently launched a new NFT marketplace where you can buy and sell your favorite NFTs on the Solana network. By partnering with the popular NFT platform, Magic Eden, they're offering the full Monty on verified collections, with more added every single day. Ready to check it out for yourself? Run, don't walk. Over to exodus.com/pomp for your free download today.

• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Again, if you want the world's leading desktop, mobile and hardware crypto wallet, go to exodus.com/pomp today. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep is the single best product that I have purchased over the last three years. It completely changed my life. I'm not joking. Pay attention. The Pod Pro cover, which goes over your mattress by Eight Sleep, is the most advanced solution on the market for thermal regulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. You can go to eightsleep.com/pomp to check out the Pod Pro cover and you save $150 at checkout. They currently ship within the United States, Canada and the UK. And I told you, it changed my life. It helps me sleep deeper, helps me sleep longer. I feel much more refreshed and I have better energy.

• 2:53Anthony Pompliano?

  You want to know how I have relentless energy every single day? Because I sleep on an Eight Sleep. Seriously. Go check it out. eightsleep.com/pomp today.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:25Anthony Pompliano?

  We've got Chase joining us. Chase, how are you?

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Hey Pop, what's going on?

• 3:29Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm super excited to talk to you. I first saw Impervious and somebody was explaining it to me and I literally was like, what are you talking about? This sounds absolutely insane. Talk us through, when you said, okay, I'm going to go build this, what was the problem that you identified that needed to be solved before you ever thought of the solution?

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Totally. So the foundation and the crux of the issue is removing third-party intermediaries, dependencies for data transfer, storage, access and permission. We've had the great consolidation of the internet over the last 20, 25 years and that has led to choke points and dependencies and the lack of discretion and control over how we send, receive, use and host our data.

• 4:20Anthony Pompliano?

  And so the whole idea is that you're going to do this on top of the Lightning Network, which most folks would understand, Layer 1 Bitcoin, kind of the blockchain itself, is great for security. Layer 2 is supposed to be the scalability with Lightning Network. You can make cheap, near-free transactions. Explain the idea of Layer 3. What the hell is that?

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. So about a year ago, we released a series of APIs that allowed any party, any developer, to incorporate peer-to-peer capability based on the Lightning Network into their applications. So we basically created a Layer 3, a programmatic layer. So any application developer could use the Lightning Network, which is like a realtime liquidity layer for Bitcoin. They could use it as a data network and command and control layer for messaging, for video, for payments, for command and control. So we started there and we decided to unify all that capability together into the Impervious

• 5:26Speaker 02

  web browser with some additional capabilities and technologies. So it's a web browser with a suite of peer-to-peer capabilities for peer-to-peer communications, data transfer, and payments. So we use the Bitcoin Lightning Network as an additional enablement discretionary option for routing and transferring information and as a single command and control layer and for payments, but we're not dependent on it. So it's like interlacing the existing internet with the Bitcoin Lightning Network.

• 6:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Walk me through a use case or like a direct example as to how somebody that's watching this or listening to this would interact with the technology, whether they know it or not.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Totally. So examples are and analogies are useful. So typically, let's use Zoom. You're in Impervious, you download the browser, you just initiate a call using, you know, any contact that you know that's also using the browser. We'll use Zoom as an example. Typically, I call into Zoom, you call into Zoom. Zoom conducts the media mixing. It issues the encryption keys. But we rendezvous on Zoom's cloud servers to facilitate the call.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  That with the peer-to-peer internet can be provisioned individually. And you can use either Lightning Bitcoin network or HTTPS or WebSockets to provision what's known as an out-of-band WebRTC call. So we can establish a peer-to-peer, cryptographically secure data transmission channel. All that means is you and I can talk directly without depending on a third party like Zoom or WhatsApp. And you may have heard us say, look, it's Zoom without Zoom. It's messaging without WhatsApp. It's Google Docs without Google real-time document collaboration of third-party hosting or facilitating. Payments without banks and identity without the state. So it's like a ground-up, an entirely new way to think about the internet.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  If typically you rely on, you know, these great consolidated centralized parties to facilitate, and you don't need them to host or provision, what good are they? So I think another good example, like an ad extremist example, WeChat, the Chinese super-application. You go to one place for messaging, for social, for payments, for search. It's very convenient and effective, but it represents complete and total information dominance. It relies on identity delegated by WeChat and permissions set and determined by WeChat, which serves as a proxy for the CCP. So we built the antithesis of that, where you can have, we demonstrate that data mining,

• 8:14Speaker 02

  surveillance, censorship, lack of security and privacy are not necessary evils in order to reap the benefit of ordinary consumer technology. Like you have video messaging and a live collaborative document without Zoom, WhatsApp, or Google.

• 8:30Anthony Pompliano?

  So how does Bitcoin play into this? Obviously, there's the Lightning network, and then there's the Layer 1. Are you just building on top of it? Or do I need to have Bitcoin in like a software wallet or a hardware wallet? order to actually interface with and and get value out of using the impervious browser.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the impervious browser acts as a command and control, a simplified command and control. You can connect a third party node, can be a virtual node like voltage, your buddy Graham, or it can be a physical node. It basically is saying, hey, look, you you're not dependent on Bitcoin Lightning in order to facilitate a peer to peer call can be HTTPS, web sockets via Tor. But if you choose to use Lightning, you can connect it and go we call Cypherpunk mode where you're controlling from soup to nuts, not just the local storage of your information, but you're choosing how it's routed. So how it's sent and received. So if you and I were going to call right now, we're on that Zoom call.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  We would just establish that we'd use it as a signaling layer to say, hey, Tom and I want to chat here. Here's, you know, my web socket. Here's my port. However, you provision that call and then we establish a peer to peer connection. And once we establish it, it's like a wormhole. Once we establish that connectivity, that data path, it's almost arbitrary. I'm oversimplifying, but what bytes are flowing through. So it can be video, audio messaging, collaborative document.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the sky's the limit. And if you think about instead of like logging in with your web three wallet, like a meta mask into, let's say, an NFT marketplace to sign a transaction and buy or swap an NFT, you're actually connecting with another person's computer. And that's just part of our capability. So it's normalizing using decentralized identity to circumvent and to not require the permission or identity of like a WeChat.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Establishing peer to peer comms channels, data transfer, file transfer, and then payments and Bitcoin Lightning is interlaced throughout. So you don't answer your question. You don't need Bitcoin in order to transact. But if you choose to use it, you can use it like for the cost of one transaction for like 10, 15 Satoshis. We can then establish an out of band peer to peer call that's unlimited. Unthrottled, it's higher resolution than Zoom because we don't compress and it's secure. And there's no one to censor it. There's no one to survey it. There's no one to sell your data.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  And you don't need anyone's permission. So it's an amalgamation of technology.

• 11:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Why won't the incumbents do this? Is this too technically complex? Is it something that they just are distracted and they're not even paying attention to this stuff? Is it a user experience that has higher friction and they don't think that people will actually adopt it? Like, what's keeping the incumbents from doing this? Because from a user standpoint, it sounds amazing, right? It's like, oh, of course, everyone wants this. Why are the incumbents not doing it?

• 11:29Speaker 02

  I think there are a few points, and that's a great question. The first is the ads model. Why would they want you out of their walled garden? You know, they, we've grown dependent on them as facilitators. So, and they use our data. We either give permission or we tolerate how they use it. And the other is, you know, that's just like how the systems are designed. They're definitely paying attention and they understand encryption. They understand the normalization of it, but the incentives are all skewed. Why would they want to give up the walled garden and allow you to control your identity and permission? How you route send and receive data?

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Because frankly, like, why would you use Zoom if you don't need them to provision the call? Or to facilitate it, or to host it, or for reliability? I think it relegates them and it's an entirely new way to think about the internet.

• 12:24Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think about that, what is the risk for either users or companies going ahead? And kind of taking this approach? Is there like platform risk, you know, God forbid, the Lightning Network ended up not working? Well, how do you think about like what the risks are that that are presented here?

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so user risk are you or platform risk?

• 12:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Whatever risk that when you think about what you all are building and building on top of the Lightning Network? How do you identify what risks are out there? And then what do you guys do to mitigate them?

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think the biggest risk is really the consumer where we just maintain reliance on them. We're actually data transport agnostic, meaning that we don't care how you Peter's got walking, how you send or receive information. So if the Bitcoin Lightning Network went down, you could still use WebSockets, TLS, Tor, HTTPS. You can still communicate, but If you choose to provision your own node and route the information that way, so Bitcoin Lightning Network is not a, is not a risk, it is an enablement, an additional discretion, additional freedom tech.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  I think it's a huge risk to the platforms where, you know, what's the first thing you need to log into, you know, Gmail or Zoom or Facebook, you need a Google identity, you need a Google profile or a Zoom. And they use those walled gardens to justify not exporting, if you're Facebook, to not export the social graph. For Gmail, they use it to be stuck on their system or for Zoom to get on their walled garden or their network. And so permissionless networks and permissionless capability really confounds the existing model, which is advertising and the ancillary component of that is data mining and harvesting surveillance. So you justify the latter for the former.

• 14:20Anthony Pompliano?

  What is it going to take to get users to start to use this stuff, right? Like, I always think about, there was all these ideas in the late 90s, we had the huge tech bust. Most of those ideas came to fruition 10 years later. And if you have kind of the benefit of hindsight and you look, why did the ideas of the late 90s not actually get built for about five or 10 years later? Some of it was consumer behaviors changed, some of it was psychologically, like people were more comfortable putting their credit cards online, things like that. Some of it was the infrastructure had to get built out. And then some of it was like the iPhone got created and had GPS in it. And so now like ride sharing was way easier because you, the rider and the driver could match with each other. So when you think about kind of what you all are building, are there milestones that you think need to happen

• 15:04Anthony Pompliano?

  in order for this to become mainstream adoption?

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think for the first part of that, it required amalgamation of technologies that had to mature and it required interlacing them. So we use the Bitcoin Lightning Network. We incorporate decentralized identifiers. We had to build out a decentralized command, decentralized communication network system. We incorporated IPFS and WebRTC. So it's instead of picking and choosing which network, like just the Bitcoin Lightning Network or just something else, they can be complementary technologies. So I think the biggest hurdle was presenting this, I mean, Incorporating decentralized identifiers and making this seamless and easy, you know, familiar like any other Zoom call or Google Doc was an application development issue.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  And then letting users understand that, hey, you don't have to be technical. You don't have to know anything about Bitcoin Lightning. You don't know anything about peer-to-peer. You just have to know, hey, this is a data duplication issue. And why are you relying on these third parties if you're not dependent on them? And do you want to pay them like $99 per month to Zoom for the pro? Do you want to rely on Google's ad model for Google Suite? And also from a privacy and censorship component, you know, data privacy, it's the foundation for consumer protection and national security-related infrastructure initiatives. So you hear a lot of people talking about, oh, for consumer protection.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  And there's innumerable state and federal agencies that exist for retroactive punishment. But there are few mechanisms that actually prevent the data duplication in the first place. Every time you rely on these third parties as service providers or applications, we're sharing and we have to accept how they use and send or receive information. And the peer-to-peer internet and the first incarnation of that is the impervious browser, demonstrates and allows you to go, hey, look, here are these initial applications. Zoom, Google Docs, without Zoom, without Google Docs, file sharing, messaging. And then we can continue building out the scope of like, wow. Unless these third parties are providing some novel profound value prop

• 17:15Speaker 02

  in a way that you can't do on your own or you can't facilitate, why are you using them? So challenging those assumptions. And then you can join like, you know, there's tens of thousands of early access requests. There's a lot of enthusiasm kind of across the board from privacy and lightning enthusiasts to the one thing everyone can agree on and say policymakers on the left and the right is basically.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  hampering big tech and consumer protection. So people for a lot of different reasons find their way here and then it's our job to simplify that, make it easy and as normal familiar as experienced possible and normalize the peer-to-peer internet standard.

• 17:59Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the things on your website that caught my attention is streaming payments, the whole idea that you could send, you know, microtransactions quickly, cheaply to people in exchange for doing various things, listening, watching, uh, consumer content. Talk a little bit about what the promise of that is and how you see that actually playing out in real time.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's significant. So I had mentioned using Bitcoin Lightning Network as a signaling command and control as a data transfer network. But of course you get the the payment component. So we interlace this payment layer with all the applications that we incorporate with all the capabilities. So like if you're on an impervious video call, you have a little

• 18:42Speaker 02

  sat indicator you can send and receive in real time to anyone while streaming videos. So you're cutting out Stripe, you're cutting out payment processors and no one's in the loop, including impervious. That is a peer-to-peer video call. It's encrypted end to end. It's private. It's not controlled. It's not throttled by anyone. And then you can send those payments.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  It it upends a lot of models, streaming micro payments, performance, uh, you know, concerts, content, uh, and then also for publishing, for messaging. Uh, you can incentivize how and when you speak to people and you can use Bitcoin, which is, you know, native internet money without a third-party payment processor, anywhere in the world, and essentially for free.

• 19:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Joe, what questions you have? Jason, nice to see you again. Um, when you look forward to the future, how do you guys measure success? Is it number of people on the platforms, payments sent? Like, how are you guys thinking about success?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think success is adoption. Yeah, a number of users, but really standardizing the peer-to-peer internet. There's going to be some people that are there for peer-to-peer video, others that are there for collaborative live documents without a third-party or messaging. And our focus on like cost of user acquisition, how do we make it as easy as possible, transition from these third parties that are convenient. Um, but you know, they're anachronisms. They're not necessary. And so

• 20:09Speaker 02

  User acquisition, ease of use and familiarity. And the fewer, kind of, the more familiar it seems, the, I think, the higher success we have. If it feels like a Zoom call, if it's a message, just like, you know, WhatsApp message, if it's a Google Docs experience, we won, but that superficial UI UX is where the familiarity is in. Because you're transporting the data, there's no third party to host or facilitate, it's private, it's censorship resistant, and it's like restoring digital dignity and discretion. So I think, I think the more familiar it seems, the greater indicator it is that it's working.

• 20:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Chase, we've recently seen members of the Federal Reserve talk about how decentralized finance could end up transforming traditional financial markets. And so that is a sign to me that most people in Bitcoin or larger crypto industry really focus on the financial applications, right? Decentralized money, decentralized lending, decentralized insurance, all of that. What you're building is taking those same concepts of decentralization and saying, no, we can be actual technology products that aren't necessarily finance related. What's the importance of the non-finance related part of this industry? Like, how, do we need to have that? Or is this a nice to have compared to all the financial concepts?

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's the necessity. So if you look back like 100 years ago, when the telecom networks really were introduced, we decided, almost a century ago, to categorize them as utilities under what are known as common carrier laws, where the telecoms don't have discretion over how or when or for what party, they have to connect a sender to receiver. They can't say, hey, for what purpose are you using the network? Have you abide by our terms of service? Are you...

• 22:06Speaker 02

  Who are you? For what purpose are you using it? There's no questions. We decided 100 years ago, we wanted the machines to work for us and that we want to have discretion and control. And we have moved away from that. And we've created an incentivized system where I think it's out of necessity. If we're going to have like a, I think it's the equivalent of like writing the digital Federalist Papers now, we have to decide like what values as a society we care about. We care about freedom of expression, you know, the First, the Fourth, the Fifth Amendment, protection from unreasonable search and seizure, due process. We need to inculcate those values into the systems we use or else prior restraint will be normalized.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  And I think it's incongruent and we become increasingly untethered and decoupled from those values and the fundamental rights. And, you know, what's the purpose of even the Constitution? If you can use a third party proxy to toggle on and off someone else's participation in society. So I think it's, it's completely paramount to our success as a society. And I think also so much of the hate online and so many of the vested like tribal issues, I think a lot of it comes down to people feel defensive and they also feel the need or the ability to control a third party. So why would I persuade you of anything if I can just go around you and toggle off? If I can convince a third party to interrupt your participation?

• 23:31Speaker 02

  And then people also feel defensive because they feel like it can happen to them. And I think if we restore these, these norms, the digital discretion, freedom of speech, due process, privacy, I am optimistic that it can change kind of the online dynamic, but I think it's essential for a free society. Or else like we'll have perverse incentives where everyone just is increasingly trying to find a reason to toggle someone else off, to censor them, to control them, to survey them. You can always find a reason. Let's remove those fundamentals and the primary incentives behind that control.

• 24:09Anthony Pompliano?

  So right now, what you're building is obviously going to take incredible technical talent and also folks who Understand technology industry, understand browsers, like there's a lot going on here, right? And then you obviously need just the underlying understanding of Bitcoin and how to build on top of that or the Lightning Network as well. Talk to me about the makeup of your team and where are you all finding some of these folks? Are they already in kind of the Bitcoin crypto ecosystem? Are you going into traditional tech or find it like where are you finding people to work on this?

• 24:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a great question. Our team's phenomenal. So my CTO, co-founder Mark Stites, had an illustrious DoD and telecom career. Has been building these systems that are critical. And for a long time, he was an OG Bitcoiner. I was a relatively early Bitcoin miner. Mark's thesis at Harvard was, I'm paraphrasing the thesis, but it was like fault tolerant federated cloud systems. It was basically how to build resilient systems. And when we met, like Sparks proverbially flew. We found, we quickly made a lot of progress and we pulled in people we've worked with and friends we've had and colleagues.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Incredible developers, Mark Clayton, amazing world-class offensive and defensive red teamer. Stuart, incredible security engineer, Tony, amazing world-class Lightning developer. George and others that we're hiring as we speak. But we've come kind of in incredible way. Where in the next few weeks, and that's part of the reason I was excited to do this podcast with you. We've had a tiered release of the browser over the last few months where it was early adopters or some of the early access requests, developers and some subset of node operators.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  But the next release that's going to be this summer is an open, completely free, production-ready release where anyone in the world can use it. And the team we're gearing up for that release. So I'm incredibly proud of the team. And I think we haven't just empirically demonstrated that it's possible. I mean, it's production-ready, so. You know, and all the, all the comments we get on a daily basis, the thousands and thousands of signups, the, you know, all that narrative, it keeps the team going and it's like, it keeps us on mission. Like what's the future we want to see? So we found people, a lot of them were early Bitcoin privacy enthusiasts, or they worked in different capacities, building systems either

• 26:48Speaker 02

  for like DoD or telecom where they know how systems can be exploited and also what's necessary to preserve privacy and restore dignity. So everyone's pretty idealistic and we'd like to see our values of society align with those technology and the systems we use. So if you're interested, you know, we're hiring and you're listening, we're hiring right now, we've had over a thousand job applicants for open positions, we're hiring like crazy for front of developers, back end developers, we just brought in a new design team, security engineers, kind of you name it, product. And so, yeah, the next few months will be very interesting.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  And, you know, please let us know if you're interested. We'd love the help and the contribution. And not to mention, it's free and open source upon release this summer. So anyone will be able to reproduce it and build on it themselves. So you can contribute to the core platform, or you can, you know, host, facilitate and build out additional capabilities on your own. And we may adopt and incorporate that into the primary product.

• 27:54Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it, man. It's super cool. John, you got any other questions?

• 27:57Speaker 02

  No, I guess one question would be, how are you thinking about security? So we think of security, like I said, it needs to be soup to nuts. You need to have the privacy of the individual, control the, the identity. We, unencrypted data never leaves the machine. So information is encrypted at rest, unencrypted data never leaves the application side, it's encrypted.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  In transfer and it's storage, those encryption keys are, we have a quadruplet redundant onboarding process where we try to force you to save your seed recovery phrase like four times because you're the only party in the world who controls those keys. And so I think, you know, giving that discretion and control to the individual, it's necessary for parties to really like achieve this vision, but it comes with a little bit of, you can't, you know, you, you can't go to Impervious and ask us to recover your data. Those keys are generated locally in your machine. You control them. You have responsibility for

• 29:04Speaker 02

  them. But it also makes it so we're not a choke point. We are not a point of failure at exploit. And it's also another reason that Burelli is completely open source because people need to trust the code. It needs to be analyzed and independently assessed. And also if there's a bug, everyone's aware. There's no backdoors. It's, hey, this is the code. It is, you know, you seize what you get. And if you see a security flaw of vulnerability, let us know. And everyone's working from, it's like, you know, Bitcoin itself, everyone's working from the same universally verifiable information.

• 29:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Gotcha. Chase, where can we send people to find you on the internet?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. So you can check out impervious.ai. Go to our contact form. And if you register for request early access, you'll be the first to know about the full open source release. You can also go to at imperviousai on Twitter, or chase the truth, or Mark Stites, handle my CTO. And follow along. We communicate really prolifically on Twitter. We've got a newsletter. We're going to be pushing a lot of more resources, demo, tutorial videos, information. And as we support just the completely open production ready, use the browsers. So come check it out. The team loves the love letters. And we read all of them.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  We take a huge chunk and then we'll go through it together. So reach out, check. Get out and stand by and by August sometime in August, you'll be using the free open peer-to-peer internet. So thanks, guys.

• 30:42Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. Chase, it's so cool to see this happening. We wish you the best and once, once it's live, we'll definitely have to bring you back and kind of give people a walkthrough of it. But it's pretty damn cool to see you building this. So, so keep going, my friend.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  All right, we're psyched. Thanks, guys. We'll be back on and get your thoughts.

• 30:59Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Sounds good, Chase. See you later.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Take it easy.

• 31:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to pompscryptocourse.com. We've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry. It's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period. Go to pompscryptocourse.com to learn more and I'll meet you guys for the next episode.