Dolly Parton’s “9 to 5,” the true story behind the anthem (bonus)

The brilliance of "9 to 5" is that it is catchy even though it’s also kinda depressing. You will be dancing along. You're enjoying it. And, then when you really listen to the lyrics, you're like, Wait, this is messed up. This is real. This is a problem we need to fix. Like, why does it have to be this way? That is the spirit of the song, why it became an anthem, and the heart of the movie 9 to 5. There’s so much to say about Dolly Parton, about her music, acting career, her business savvy, not to mention Dollywood. Today though, we wanted to bring you the audacious true story of 9 to 5, the movie and the song. Between the 1960s and 1980s, there was a real sense that big workplace changes were just beyond the horizon. At the time, a very common job for women was clerical work. In 1973, a group of secretaries in Boston formed a women's labor organization. They called themselves the "9to5." Today on the show, we revisit our 2021 episode where we meet the women behind the movement that inspired the movie. And a look at how far we have — or haven't — come since then. This is a special Sunday bonus episode. For our latest episode on inventing new tomatoes, scroll down the feed or click here https://lnk.to/nR7HsmWE. (Note: This episode originally ran in 2021 https://www.npr.org/2021/04/14/987333798/workin-9-to-5.) Read: - Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life https://lnk.to/i3AukBdD - Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletter https://n.pr/3zrFvUB - Our weekly Indicator round-up newsletter https://www.npr.org/newsletter/indicator Follow: - Instagram https://n.pr/3FqLuws - TikTok https://n.pr/3sGZdrq - YouTube https://lnk.to/iCVDaW3C - Facebook https://n.pr/3h92GwS Support public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org http://plus.npr.org/. Today's episode was hosted by Sarah Gonzalez and Sonari Glinton. The original episode was produced by Nick Fountain and James Sneed and edited by Mitra Kaboli. The update was produced by Sam Yellowhorse Kesler, and engineered by Jimmy Keeley. Alex Goldmark is Planet Money’s executive producer. Music: "9 to 5," "5 to 9," and "Fly on the Wall." See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:16Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Sarah and this is a bonus Sunday episode because, as we all know, Dolly Parton has sadly passed away. And there's so much to say about her music, her acting career, Dollywood, her business savvy. Today, though, we have the renegade true story behind Dolly Parton's Nine to Five anthem. The song was for a movie. And I did not know this before I worked on this episode, the song and movie were based on real people and a real labor movement formed by a group of secretaries in Boston. We spoke with them and learned how the song and movie and the real life movement all started to feed into each other. This was all recorded back in 2021, but please enjoy my true delight watching Dolly Parton

• 1:01Speaker 01

  in this movie and how much all the people we interviewed love, love, love this song. But before we turn to our Dolly appreciation, I just want to say, do not let this bonus episode take the place of our usual Friday episode. It is there waiting for you. It is all about the quest to turn tomatoes, basically all fruits, into brands you will pay more for. We hear from the food scientist creating a new type of cherry tomato. It's supposed to be a lot better. And this episode may just change how you see fruit at the grocery store. Scroll down in the feed to find it. Okay, here you are, Nine to Five.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  This is Planet Money from NPR.

• 1:41Speaker 03

  All right.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  All right, so you have your snack?

• 1:43Speaker 03

  Okay, I have my snacks. And, well, I actually have, I have a chicken pot pie.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  A chicken pot pie as your movie snack?

• 1:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  I got string cheese, goldfish crackers. And I, I haven't seen this film.

• 1:58Speaker 03

  That is going to change today because we are watching Nine to Five, the movie, during the workday, the way it was meant to be watched.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:07Speaker 03

  Ready?

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Three, two, one, play.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  I don't even think I knew that Nine to Five, the song, had a movie. I just thought it was a song.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  What you gotta love is like, how long opening credits take.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  I'm excited. I'm getting into it.

• 2:42Speaker 04

  Well, welcome to the front lines.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Lily Tomlin, I love her.

• 2:47Speaker 04

  Oh, I wanted to ask you about my salary.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Ooh, Jane Fonda looks so good. She always looks good.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Dolly Parton is in it?

• 3:00Speaker 03

  This is her debut film. Okay, Sarah, here's what you gotta know about Nine to Five.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:06Speaker 03

  It is truly a movie of its era. It's one of the first movies that was set in the work world. It's about clerical workers, secretaries, a workforce which in 1980 was predominantly women. Most of the bosses were men, which leads to all sorts of problems.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  A little sexual harassment in the workplace?

• 3:33Speaker 03

  Well, it gets worse.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  So they've gotten to men being promoted over women when they're not as qualified. Getting coffee for the guy.

• 3:42Speaker 03

  What I love about this film is that they take these issues and they handle them with comedy. The problems are played for laughs, like the main plot of the film, getting revenge against your boss.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Lily, Jane, Dolly, their characters all get high one day and fantasize about killing their boss. They end up kind of accidentally tying him up one day. And while he's tied up, they take over the business. They're running things. By the end of the movie, the boss gets free. He shows up at the office. And with the women in charge, the workplace looked totally different.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  They make a bunch of workplace improvements. There's a daycare center at work, flexible hours, equal pay, and they all end up sticking. Well, except the equal pay.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that one was never going to stand a chance.

• 4:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. But the others do stick. So at the end of the film, Lily, Jane and Dolly, they all pop champagne.

• 4:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, everything except that part about the money. What are we gonna do about that? Hey, we've come this far, haven't we? This is just the beginning.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  This is just the beginning. Oh, no. Nothing changes. Nothing changes.

• 5:09Speaker 03

  Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Sonari Glutton.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  And I'm Sarah Gonzalez. And Sonari, the reason you wanted me to watch this movie is because Nine to Five is not just a movie.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Exactly. For the women who watched it, there was a real, true feeling that the changes they saw on the big screen would lead to changes in the actual world.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Today on the show, the story of how Nine to Five the movie, Nine to Five the song even, started with a group of secretaries in Boston.

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• 6:48Speaker 03

  Nine to Five the Movie was based on real workplace experiences. And it all started with a woman named Karen Nussbaum.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  I was very active in the anti-war movement and in the newly blooming women's movement. And I got a job to support my activism in the kind of work that most women did in those days, and that was as a clerical worker.

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  This is the 1970s and something really big was happening around this time. Millions of women were entering the workforce. This is during the Vietnam War. In the 70s, women in the labor force increased by 12 million. And a lot of women were clerical workers. There were 18 million clerical workers by the end of the decade.

• 7:32Speaker 04

  If you ask somebody who was a typical worker in America, they most likely say a man in a hard hat. But in fact, literally, the most typical worker in America was a woman at a keyboard.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Now Karen was just doing clerical work to, you know, pay the bills. Her real passion was protesting the Vietnam War.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  So one day Karen is at this anti-war conference and she runs into one of the biggest movie stars at the time and perhaps the most famous Vietnam War protester.

• 7:58Speaker 04

  I saw Jane Fonda sitting on the floor, just participating like anybody else. And it made a big impression on me.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Karen and Jane Fonda end up teaming up, protesting the Vietnam War together. Jane would like sleep over at Karen's.

• 8:13Speaker 04

  I lived with five other women in an apartment that was a mess. She stayed in somebody's water bed. We had meetings in our living room. And every once in a while, I'd think, oh, Jane Fonda, major movie star is sitting in my living room.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Once the war ended, Jane Fonda returned to acting. And Karen, you know, Karen's an activist. And now that the war is over, she starts noticing all these things about the office that she didn't really, really notice before.

• 8:50Speaker 04

  There was this casual chauvinism that just popped up all of the time.

• 8:56Speaker 03

  At first Karen and some of her coworkers started meeting regularly, talking about their workplace problems. And then they realized that women all over Boston were doing the exact same thing. So they decide to start a formal labor organization.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  And what do they decide to call it?

• 9:15Speaker 03

  Well, at the time, the workday for clerical workers was nine to five.

• 9:21Speaker 04

  So we just picked the hours of the day and called it nine to five. And we had an organization of Nurses inspired by nine to five, which called themselves seven to three. Because that was their origin.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Rolls right off the tongue, seven to three. No one says seven to three. Nine to five is the phrase.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  Thank you so much, Karen, for the much better phrase. Now, at first, Karen says nine to five, the labor organization, started with what felt like painfully small issues.

• 9:50Speaker 04

  We started with job posting. You should at least know when there was a job opening in your company.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  That's still a problem.

• 9:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Nine to five, the organization, starts spreading across the country, more and more chapters. And it leads to a local union in Boston, SCIU Local 925. Get it? Nine, two, five. Pretty soon, Karen and the nine to five women are demanding and getting higher pay at big institutions. They helped pass the Pregnancy Discrimination Act. And a big priority for Karen was to have fun with all of their campaigns. One of the very first things nine to five instituted was the pettiest office procedure contest and the bad boss contest.

• 10:34Speaker 04

  And you would be amazed at the things that these guys asked these women to do.

• 10:40Speaker 03

  What's the pettiest?

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Like, what? Yeah, what was the pettiest?

• 10:43Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh. We had a guy who asked his secretary to sew up a hole in his pants while he still had them on.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  I was gonna ask, not while he was still wearing them, of course.

• 10:57Speaker 04

  While he was still wearing them. And you may think that I made that up, except for that, when we gave him the award, it was on television. He went on television with the secretary.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Wait, how did you, you would invite the petty boss to come on TV to win the petty boss award? And they were like, sure, I would love to.

• 11:18Speaker 04

  They didn't even have enough sense to know that they should be embarrassed. We had a guy who gave his secretary his beeper and sent her to the pub, the bar downstairs from their office. And if she saw a woman who met his specification, she was supposed to beep him. Now, you might think that that's a made up story, too, except for that was on Phil Donahue. We got the boss and his secretary on the Phil Donahue Show.

• 11:46Speaker 03

  Using daytime talk shows like Phil Donahue, millions of women across the country could see themselves into office workers on television, which sort of made people go, hold on a second, this is ridiculous. And it made them feel like they could actually call out their own bosses. I know my mom watched a lot of Phil Donahue. And seeing the craziness out in the open on television helped propel the women's worker movement. This whole time, Karen, she stayed in touch with Jane Fonda, and she'd tell Jane about the things she was hearing from her fellow office workers. And Jane Fonda said, I want to help.

• 12:22Speaker 04

  Jane came to me and said, you know, I'd love to support nine to five in the best way I know how. And that's by making a major motion picture. So I thought, whoa, great.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Jane Fonda's like, let's write up a real pitch. I'll shop it around to the film executives. Karen thinks the best angle to pitch is just the sheer number of clerical workers. She writes, "Office workers haven't seen themselves represented in pop culture almost ever." And there are almost 20 million of us. You'd have a built in audience, film executives, a built in audience of almost 20 million people. The movie studio Twentieth Century Fox approves the idea.

• 13:02Speaker 03

  Now Jane had to figure out what the movie was going to be about. She starts meeting with workers from Karen's group, the original nine to five, to get ideas. And there's this pretty important meeting that's the big aha moment.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Jane's meeting with about 40 workers in Cleveland, hearing all their complaints.

• 13:19Speaker 04

  And long into the meeting, Jane at one point says, now, has anybody here ever dreamed of killing your boss? And the room just lit up because everybody had dreamed about getting even with their boss and told story after story about the kinds of things that they'd like to do to their boss. And it was those stories that became the basis of the movie.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  At this point, Jane decides, this is a movie about getting back at the man.

• 13:47Speaker 03

  So they have a movie studio, they have stars, they have a premise. All they need now is a script. In comes a young, 26 year old rising star. She's a writer, Patricia Resnick. And she hears that Jane Fonda, a hero of hers, was producing a movie. She knew that she had to be a part of it. So she gets a meeting with Jane Fonda.

• 14:11Speaker 04

  When I went to meet with her at her house, she had stacks and stacks of files. And so I felt that my job was to come up with a compelling story and characters you could root for. And a boss that was, you know, as close as you could get to the mustache twirling villain.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  Problem was, even though Patricia had plenty of non glamorous jobs, including waiting tables, she had never had a clerical job. So the movie studio of Twentieth Century Fox was like, you want to learn about office culture? We got a place for you. Why don't you try our insurance company in downtown Los Angeles?

• 14:49Speaker 04

  It was a, you know, a giant, whole floor of secretaries. And as soon as she walked in, you saw, oh, all the, all the underlings were female and all the bosses were male. There was not, there was not one female in an upper level position.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Patricia spent weeks hanging out with the secretaries, taking them to lunch, listening to their stories. And slowly, the characters for the movie begin to emerge.

• 15:19Speaker 03

  One woman in particular kept coming up in all these lunches. Every woman was absolutely sure she was sleeping with the boss.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  I was a tiny bit afraid of her. And anyway, I took her out to lunch last and got a couple of martinis into her. That's when people used to drink at lunch. I didn't bring it up. I didn't feel comfortable bringing it up. But she told me that she knew that everybody thought she was sleeping with the boss. And, you know, he was letting them think that, but it was completely untrue. And she started to cry. And, you know, I had no proof either way, but I absolutely believed her.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  This real life worker inspired the character played by Dolly Parton.

• 16:04Speaker 05

  So you've been telling everybody I'm sleeping with you, huh? Well, that explains it. That's why these people treat me like some dime store floozy. They think I'm screwing the boss.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  Dolly Parton's star turn made the idea of sexual harassment a central part of the movie. But the phrase basically didn't exist yet.

• 16:22Speaker 04

  Sexual harassment, those words are never used in the movie. We didn't even have a term for it because it was just this thing that men did that we didn't like.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Patricia subtly inserted huge workplace reforms into the script. Like, at the very end of the movie, after the women have instituted all these new workplace programs, the boss's boss, the big boss, he shows up like, wow, you've been so productive, Frank.

• 16:50Speaker 06

  Frank Hart, my boy, I would like to shake your hand. You managed to create a very, very splendid environment here. Like the, like the job sharing program. Job sharing.

• 17:01Speaker 03

  Of course, the boss has been literally tied up in a harness the whole movie and didn't do anything. But he takes all the credit.

• 17:10Speaker 06

  So you pulled it off, Frank, huh? Well, I like to think we did anyway. Good. Like the daycare center. Daycare center.

• 17:17Speaker 04

  Our working parents love it. The cost was minimal. It's cut down on absenteeism, and we had a wonderful time doing it.

• 17:24Speaker 06

  Well, Frank, I got to give you credit. That equal pay thing, though, that's, that's got to go.

• 17:28Speaker 03

  All right, well, here's an irony. A director named Colin Higgins gets hired to direct the movie. Yes, apparently you needed a dude to direct the movie about women. And this guy, well, he ends up pushing out Patricia Resnick.

• 17:41Speaker 04

  He wouldn't let me on the set. He didn't want me around. You know, he gave me the every ship has one captain speech. So I kind of got nine to five on nine to five.

• 17:56Speaker 03

  When you say nine to five done nine to five, there is a plot line in which the man takes credit for other, for the women's work. That's like a theme and that's one of the, a theme in the movie.

• 18:07Speaker 04

  Right. And that's exactly what happened to me.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  There was a whole Old documentary about Colin Higgins that talks about nine to five endlessly. I'm never mentioned. There have been other documentaries more recently. I'm never mentioned and it's galling, you know?

• 18:26Speaker 03

  Is that like a, there's something, I don't know what word you would use for it, but there's some weird poetry in that idea.

• 18:38Speaker 04

  Um, yes, your poetry is my galling.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  After the break, we see just how far the influence of Hollywood goes in the real world. It's not, it's not much, it's not great.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  Like almost none.

• 18:57Speaker 01

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• 20:30Speaker 01

  On December 19th, 1980, Karen Nussbaum, who started Nine to Five, the organization, goes to a dark theater to watch Nine to Five, the movie on the big screen. The opening credits start, the song comes in, you know the song.

• 20:45Speaker 03

  Can you tell me, as someone who's leading nine to five, the union? It has to be a crazy moment, the first time you hear-

• 20:55Speaker 01

  You hear that song.

• 20:56Speaker 03

  That you hear it, dun, dun, dun, dun.

• 20:58Speaker 04

  The, the song was thrilling.

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  Karen wasn't sure people would like the movie, but then there was this scene.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  The copy machine is shooting papers everywhere. Jane Fonda's character doesn't know how to stop it.

• 21:12Speaker 04

  And a woman not down, far down the row from me stands up and yells, push the stop button. You could just feel the electricity in the room because all of the women there are totally in this movie. They see themselves.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Nine to Five is the second biggest box office hit that year, right after Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back.

• 21:35Speaker 03

  Jane and Karen go on a tour with the film and they're screening the movie in a bunch of theaters, having huge worker rallies and using the song especially to promote organizing office workers. It became a cultural phenomenon far beyond Hollywood.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  After the movie, the number of nine to five chapters doubles and the union expands. Both groups are still active today.

• 21:58Speaker 03

  And both lobbied to pass marquee employment protection laws like the Family Medical Leave Act and the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  But for Karen, there was something more subtle that they all accomplished also. Nine to Five, the movement was the start of women being perceived differently in the workplace. They were starting to be treated more as professionals, less likely to be asked to sew up their boss's pants, more likely to say no if someone did ask them to do that.

• 22:27Speaker 04

  The, the movement from the 1970s had a massive effect on the way women think of ourselves. We have built generations of self-confident women who take care of ourselves.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  But Karen really thought there would have been more progress made over the last 40 years. The main issues that nine to five fought for, there's still a problem today. Childcare, sexual harassment, equal pay.

• 22:53Speaker 03

  The pay disparity is largest for women of color. Now, I want to acknowledge for a moment that this is a movie about white women. Shout out to Maria Delgado for holding it down for all the women of color in the entire movie.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Shout out Maria Delgado. Now, in many ways, Karen says, we've actually gone backwards. You know, Karen has spent almost 50 years in the labor movement. She ran the union, she was in the Department of Labor. And she says, the period right after the movie, the eighties, undid a lot of the progress made in the seventies.

• 23:25Speaker 04

  When we started first organizing it, nine to five, I never expected that we would see fewer people without sick days, that we would see fewer people without paid leave. I, I certainly thought we would have paid maternity leave.

• 23:41Speaker 03

  Karen blames the decline in labor protections on union participation. When the movie came out, almost 25% of US companies were unionized. Today, it's about 10%.

• 23:54Speaker 04

  I think our job now is to make sure that this coming decade is not a repeat of the 1980s.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  In 2021, Dolly Parton released an updated version of her original song. It is called Five to Nine, in ode to all the extra hours women have to work.

• 24:17Speaker 03

  She can certainly write a catchy tune, but she is, it's depressing.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  That's, that's sort of the brilliance of this whole nine to five thing. Like you're like dancing along, you're enjoying it. And then when you really listen to the lyrics, you're like, wait, this is a little messed up. Like, why does it have to be this way?

• 24:34Speaker 03

  And thus, the greatness of Dolly Parton.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Okay, do not miss our Friday episode about the invention of a new type of tomato and why the produce section at all of our grocery stores is starting to look, I don't know, a little fancy, you know, sun golds and cuties and all that. We have the story of what it takes to make a new fruit that you can trademark and where the money from that goes. Scroll down in the Planet Money feed to find that episode. Today's bonus show was produced by Nick Fountain and James Snead and edited by Mitra Kaboli. Srinaray Glinton was my co-host. He has a new book coming out called Blackonomics. You can find more, including how to preorder if you Google Blackonomics and Srinaray Glinton. As always, thanks to our NPR Plus supporters who get bonus episodes and sponsor for you listening. I'm Sarah Gonzalez, this is NPR.

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