Pod Insights Philosophize This! Episode #217 ... Religion and Nothingness - Kyoto School pt. 2 - Nishitani About this episode Today we talk about expanding our view of what a religious quest includes. The limits of dualistic thinking. Technological enframing and obsession with utility. Self-emptying. Consciousness, Nihility and Sunyata. Sunyata as immanence. Hope you love it! :)
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Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Hello everyone, I'm Stephen West, this is Philosophize This, patreon.com/philosophizethis, philosophical writing on Substack at philosophizethis on there. I hope you love the show today. So I always get emails after an episode's released, but after last episode, there was a notable increase in two specific kinds of emails I get. One was an increase in the number of people saying the episode led them to a pretty deep shift in the ways they're thinking about things, that Keiji Nishitani is opening them up to a whole new interesting way of exploring what it is to exist. The other was an increase, and the number of people saying they don't quite get it, that while they appreciate it and are sticking with it, that it's such a different way of thinking, that it's difficult to wrap my mind around what's truly being said here.
0:42 Speaker 00 Just felt the need to acknowledge this before we talk about Nishitani's views on religion today. I mean, I know I must sound like a broken record lately. Be sure to listen to every episode from 211 up until this one if you want to understand what's being talked about. But look, it's not like I'm trying to annoy you, or to be overly complicated. It's just a gift I have, really. No, but there's episodes of this podcast where we're doing something different. Some episodes are trying to cover things a little more broadly, across a thinker's entire work. It casts a wide net, that's what some of the episodes we do, do. But those are always going to be episodes that can never hit you as hard as when we talk about more the context of where a thinker's coming from, their influences, the deeper conversations that they were embedded in. I mean, just for example, you know, it's been said by some Buddhists before, that
1:26 Speaker 00 "Look, you can explain all of Buddhism to someone in just three sentences. You can say emptiness is form, form is emptiness, the two are not separate." And you can imagine someone hearing it and saying, "Oh yeah, I guess I get it then. I mean, I understand those sentences in the English language, so I guess I now understand all of Buddhism, don't I?" But you can also imagine this person thinking that they get it, but not quite getting it. You can imagine those three sentences, when understood at a deeper level, with a bit more context, have the ability to not just sound really nice to you, but maybe to change you at a deep level, and short of apologizing for going a bit deeper into this stuff, from building, from episode to episode, to take these ideas into deeper waters. I'm hoping there's enough of you out there that are still enjoying this exploration into the limits of dualistic thinking.
2:10 Speaker 00 Of trying to access this more immediate connection with being. From the tragic perspective, to high digger, to the mystics, to Nishitani. They're all talking about something here that's overlapping. Well, what is it? And is it a mistake to think of this something that they're talking about as a single thing? Well, let's get some more into it today. And to pick up where we left off last time. Shunyata is going to be a crucial piece of this for KJ Nishitani. With Shunyata's relationship to religion being at center stage this episode. And you know, it's funny. God is dead. Is a statement most people listening to this would recognize, I think. It's an infamous statement by one of Nishitani's biggest influences and the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. And when you hear God is dead. It can sound, even when you understand Nietzsche's deeper point that he's making with it.
2:53 Speaker 00 That the meaning of that statement is something that's hostile towards religion. That it must be saying that religion is dead, or is a thing of the past in some way. But as we'll see by the end of this episode, the statement God is dead through the eyes of someone like KJ Nishitani. Is not an anti-religious statement at all. In fact, to him, it's actually a foreshadowing. To what you could call a golden age of religious participation that may come about in the near future. Again, it'll make more sense by the end of this episode. And the way we get there is to talk about religion along the same lines we talked about nihilism last episode. Meaning to Nishitani. It's a mistake to only consider a piece of what something is to people. And then pretend to understand the essence of the thing in its entirety. We talked about how it's possible to have a shallow relationship with nihilism and death.
3:37 Speaker 00 And how it's possible to experience these things more deeply. If you examine the ways that people usually frame them in an incomplete way. Well, what would happen if we did the same thing when it comes to religion? For the sake of covering as many sides of this as we can on this episode. Let's start with what an atheist might say about religion and the kind of world we live in. Similar to the nihilist from last time that sees nihilism as a problem to be solved. This person might think of religion as something that's mostly just a security blanket for people. That religion is obviously a sociological construct. Designed to not only control people, but to give people easy answers to difficult questions in a complicated universe. Things like morality for a religious person under this view, aren't difficult problems. Just listen to what God.
4:20 Speaker 00 has to say about it and then it's going to be objective and easy for you. More than that, who you are isn't a complex or difficult thing. Just read the book of Job or Matthew and it'll more or less tell you who you are. In other words, religion, it's said by some, is a type of mythology that simplifies reality down for scared, weak people that are either too busy to or unwilling to affirm reality in all of its complexity. These people have to deny big pieces of reality, so they turned to religion to be able to do it. Now contrast this with somebody that's maybe a bit more favorable towards religion. Since I said the book of Matthew, let's stick to modern Christianity as an example. And by the way, this isn't me trying to exclude other religions here. It's just the one I'm most familiar with myself, to be able to make Nishitani's point here without speaking out of my lane too much.
5:04 Speaker 00 So anyway, you talk to an average Christian that goes to church on Sunday, you ask him what religion is, and they might say something back like, "Well, religion for me is the path to personal salvation. I was born in sin, I believe in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, and through the sacrifice of God's one and only Son, I am absolved of my mistakes and earn admittance into the Kingdom of Heaven." Now, both of these, to Nishitani, probably cover a piece of what religion is to some people. I mean, first of all, no doubt, some people do use religion as a security blanket. And I think you'd say that's probably something you see more commonly in the Western world, where this opinion's very popular, just given the type of religion that's prevalent. And no doubt to some people, religion is most experienced by them as the one and only ticket they have to salvation.
5:47 Speaker 00 But both of these, while they're not wrong, to Nishitani you could say that they're incomplete when it comes to describing a full picture of what religion is. These both would only be covering a piece of it. So in his book, Religion and Nothingness, Nishitani starts out by giving a few slightly more sophisticated takes on what religion is that are popular among scholars. And just like with nihilism, these common takes are going to be important for us to consider if we want to understand religion more fully. That is, if we want to understand what's missing from these definitions. He says one popular way people in the West will describe religion is that it's the relationship of man to an absolute, like God, for example. That's one way of distilling religion down if you wanted to. Another one is they'll describe religion as simply the process of getting ever closer closer to an idea of the holy.
6:31 Speaker 00 That's another distillation. Nishitani says some scholars describe religion as the abandonment of self-will in order to live according to the will of God. Some other thinkers have framed it as the intuition of the infinite found in the finite. Now, all of these attempts at a description, from the atheist, the believer, all the way down to the scholars, are incomplete if you're Nishitani. In fact, if you were to examine them all and try to find something similar about them, Nishitani says, notice something here that his colleague Martin Heidegger may have pointed out, about the modern Western world and the way that we typically think about things. These are all attempts to describe what religion is by framing it in terms of its utilitarian function, or in terms of what use it serves to a particular person or to a society. This is what we do with everything in the Western world.
7:16 Speaker 00 You ask someone what something is, and it says it by default, they will respond with what use it serves to them. We'll say something like, art is a way for you to express your emotions, or to liven up a room. Education, we'll say, is a tool to prepare people for the workforce. Or a friend is someone who's there for you when you're having a bad day. We frame things in terms of their utility. And remember, Heidegger would say that this is a symptom of the technological framing we give to everything. And that while framing it in this way certainly helps us in specific areas, like the sciences and technology, and while it's very important, it also has consequences when it's the only way that you see things. It blocks your ability to see deeper levels of the world when it comes to other stuff.
7:57 Speaker 00 Well, religion is going to be one of those other stuffs to Nishitani. And just like on last episode, where nihilism was something that we're viewing too narrowly, because in the West, we're always trying to view it totally from the outside, religion is also something, Nishitani thinks, that we can't possibly get a full picture of, again, if we're only looking at it from the outside, defining it by its utility, defining it by its similarities or differences to other things. What he's saying is that religion, in some other very important sense, is something that can only be known in the subjective experience of the person that is immersed in a religious quest. In other words, it's from the inside of a religious quest that an important vantage point becomes clear to us about religion and what it is. Now, obvious
8:40 Speaker 00 First question you may have here is, what is a religious quest? Well, Tenshi Tani, while there's many different ways that a religious quest can play out in terms of the specifics in someone's life, there is a general movement you could expect to see going on in the internal experience of someone that's on a truly religious quest, and that is a reformulation of the self and its whole relationship to its reality. To put it way too densely here at first, but then I'll obviously go back and explain more the context of what he means throughout the episode. A truly religious quest, Tenshi Tani, is one where a person moves from a dualistic, utilitarian framing of the world, where the individual self is always the center lens that you see everything through, to one where the self is more emptied.
9:22 Speaker 00 Where Tenshi Tani, by emptying the self, we then liberate the self from the illusion of separation, where then from this new liberated standpoint, the further religious quest is to discover our place within the interdependent network of being, where by truly affirming reality at this level, we then realize that this network is something that we are always already in a meaningful relationship with. A religious quest truly begins then for Tenshi Tani, and he says this in the first chapter of the book, "When you stop framing religion and the world around you in terms of what use does this serve to me, and start framing it in terms of for what purpose do I exist, that shift in your thinking is going to be a critical piece of what he would call any truly religious transformation." Now, don't be deceived here.
10:06 Speaker 00 You may hear that and think, "Well, that's what I'm already doing. In fact, that's what I've been doing in church since I was about eight years old. I'm always asking for what larger purpose I exist." But just as your philosophical sherpa here, I have to advise you, you're probably not doing this at the level that Tenshi Tani's talking about. Most people that call themselves religious are not doing this. Because just like most people have a pretty shallow relationship with nihilism or death, like we talked about last time, most people have a pretty shallow relationship with religion to Keiji Tenshi Tani. The same way you can be a goth kid that wears all black, talks about death all day, but still not be facing death very seriously. You can be a person that sees religion as a cornerstone of how you're living your life, but never actually experience any real religious transformation. I mean, again...
10:50 Speaker 00 To stay in my lane here with what I know to try to make Nishitani's point the best I can, I might be someone who looks around me at the mostly Christians in the United States where I live. And I could say, "Look, I've been to quite a few church services in my day, and the people going to these services are not generally people that are, you know, emptying the self, affirming the complexity of the interdependent network that they're a part of." No, these are generally people that are eating cookies and talking about the football game that's gonna be on later. In other words, what's going on at these church services for a lot of people is not anything transformative. Far from this being a weekly exercise in rethinking the self and the ego and its relationship with the world, for a lot of people, this becomes just an emboldening of the self and the ego.
11:32 Speaker 00 It's a reinforcement of the grasp they have over the objective moral truth of the universe. It becomes something they wield around in conversations as an authoritative stance that ends up shutting down any further discussion about complexity. Now, as a religious person, you may hear that and be like, "Well, that's a little unfair." I mean, let's say I do use it in that way sometimes. Look, I'm being serious. I do also sit in the pews of my church, and when a service is going on, I do feel a sense of humility. Going to church does make me a little less self-centered and a little more in line with my role in a larger plan that's being carried out. And what, is that not religion? Does that count for nothing if you're Nishitani? To Nishitani, it doesn't count for nothing. But to Nishitani, if we're being honest,
12:14 Speaker 00 it is a pretty shallow experience of the kind of transformation that something like religion has a unique capacity to provide for people. Think of how special of a domain religion is as something that can lead to spiritual development if taken actually seriously. Think of the mystics we talked about a couple of episodes ago and their experiences. A lifetime of devotion, daily focused practice towards a deeper and deeper communion with God in their own being. Think about Heidegger's point about how the theoretical, scientific abstractions that we usually live our lives in are secondary, and how there's a more immediate connection with being that's possible. Think of Nishitani's work on nihilism just from last episode. Religious language and devotional practice, when taken seriously, seem to have a unique ability to transform people in this area.
12:58 Speaker 00 There's a unique level of guidance that's possible at the higher levels of these religious communities. Shouldn't we be respecting that fact if it's true? And look, if we want to understand his larger point here today, I get it. In our cult of egalitarianism, we always want to be able to say, "Everybody's experience is equally valid, equally deep." But look, we have to be able to mark a distinction here between people that take their religion seriously as a devotional practice, and people that are just showing up on Sunday to avoid judgment from the family, or because religion has some use to them in their eternal fate. There's a difference between Meister Eckhart and Mr. Kowalski from down the street. What percentage of people do you really think take their religion seriously to the point that it transforms them?
13:40 Speaker 00 And what percentage of people are using it at this point in their lives, more or less like a self-help book? Or as Nishitani might see it, like yet another egocentric way of projecting themselves onto the world so they can have mastery over it? Now, before we get more into what Nishitani thinks a religious quest looks like, let's clear a couple of things up around using the word "religion" here to describe this transformation he's talking about. What I mean is, okay, for the sake of argument, let's say barely anybody's taken their religion seriously, just statistically in the modern world. Well then, why does Nishitani need to use the word "religion" here at all? Religion as a word carries with it so much baggage. I mean, he must realize that. If most people who think of themselves as religious are not authentically religious, then why not just call them the "religious people"?
14:25 Speaker 00 And whatever small percentage of people are actually engaging with religion, why not call them, I don't know, "contemplatives" or something? Seems like both an atheist and a religious person could argue this same point for different reasons. Well, the answer is, among other things, because this would distract from how unique of a path religion is in all of its varying forms as a gateway to this specific kind of relationship to being. I mean, just as a comparison, think of the way we use the term "university" when people go off to school. What is most people's experience going to a university? It's not studying all day long. It's not a devotional practice. Most people go to college because society tells them if they do, then they'll get credentialed, and then they'll get hired in a field they want to work in. It's essentially personal salvation for the career world.
15:08 Speaker 00 "I'm just doing it for the certificate on the wall so I can make more money." And they'll do the assignments. They'll study for the test at the end of the week. Came to most people 10 years later. How much of this stuff they're learning are they really going to be able to remember for you? However, you could make an argument that there's a very small percentage of people that apply themselves deeply when they go to a university. And that those people are uniquely capable, when they're in a university setting, of becoming part of something bigger than themselves, part of an intellectual tradition, someone that can be a torchbearer, heading into the future for whatever field they're a part of. University, then, seen from one angle, can be almost a complete waste of money. Seen from another angle, it's one of the only places with the resources to produce someone with a very particular, highly desirable skillset. It's a transformative experience, in other words.
15:54 Speaker 00 Well, so too, Nishitani thinks, with religion and religious practice. And it would be silly for us to not use the word religion, to call people contemplatives or something, simply because of the shallow way religions often utilized by people of this particular culture and time. I mean, real question, is religion the thing that is shallow? Or are the people shallow? Do most people just usually experience religion in a doled and appropriated way? More than that, what are these different religions all doing? Is everything, from Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, are these all different attempts to just give people a security blanket? To control people? Like, when these were created,
16:33 Speaker 00 was there a council of people that sat around saying, "Hey, hey, let's find a way to control all the people with a scary story about the creator of the universe." "Quick, quick, Fred, write that idea down, that's a good one." No, for Nishitani, the origins of these traditions lied in the stories of individuals. Individuals who were exploring their own experience of being at an extremely deep level. And then these people, in whatever tradition they existed in, encountered nihilism in a unique way at the bottom of their search. Then they discovered some kind of unique purpose or connection to something greater. And then they formulated a way to live authentically on the other side of this insight. I mean, these are typically the kind of stories we find at the origins of these religions that we know today. In other words, these weren't politicians that were trying to control people.
17:15 Speaker 00 These were individuals who, in their existential experience of the world, moved from asking questions like, "What use do these things in the world have for me and my own ego-driven agenda?", and they started asking questions like, "For what purpose do I exist in this larger network?". Now, whatever dulled and appropriated form this may take in the lives of billions of people in the modern world is beside the point. Yeah, practically everybody's distracting themselves with one ego-driven agenda or another: their own career, their political beliefs, their TV shows, fantasies, drugs. And yes, they do it with what we often call "religion" as well. These shallow forms of religion become something people just project onto the world so they can control it. But to Nishitani, this is transparently a way to avoid a truly religious engagement with the world.
17:59 Speaker 00 If a religious quest requires us to reformulate the self and its relationship to reality, seeing through this illusion of separation from reality, then distracting yourself from nihilism and nihilistic questions examining the foundations of meaning, that becomes an anti-religious exercise, whatever it is. So ironically, the mass-produced versions of these religious approaches end up becoming things that allow people to ask religious questions less frequently, Nishitani. Religion ends up blocking religious engagement. And this is where most people in the Western world have existed for thousands of years to him, primarily in the realm of "consciousness", as he puts it. Let me explain what he means by "consciousness". Let's slow down, and let's talk about what he thinks is missing from our understanding of religion and religious quests.
18:43 Speaker 00 There's terminology Nishitani introduces in the book that can help us organize all this a bit better. Think of there being three different experiential fields of awareness that we have: three existential standpoints that you could use as a model to understand your experience of the world if you wanted to. There's three of them. One is consciousness, two is nihility, and three is shunyata. And understanding the movement we go through internally between these three different fields of awareness will help us to understand what he sees as an authentic religious quest. And to put it briefly, the religious quest is generally going to be a movement from the consciousness field of awareness through the field of nihility. To a deeper connection to the field of Shunyata, removing the illusion of our separation
19:26 Speaker 00 from being. Some people may even say "God" here. But anyway, notice how the general structure of this quest might resemble some of the religious quests you're familiar with that have been presented as examples in the popular religions. So, we'll get into all of it. Let's start with number one, though. Consciousness, to Nishitani, is the field of awareness where most of us spend almost every second of our lives. It's the one I'm talking about when I say we project ourselves onto the world and try to control it. It's the one I'm talking about when I say we're always thinking in dualistic utilitarian ways. Consciousness is the field of awareness, to Nishitani, that is representational, meaning it's the kind of awareness where there's always an individual subject, or a "you", and you're always looking for how you relate to objects that you then try to control,
20:10 Speaker 00 or "objects" that we "reify", in the words of Nishitani. And what he means is, we're always trying to turn these "objects" that really have no fixed durable meaning, into something that is fixed and durable, something we can manipulate for our own agendas. And in order to "reify" them in this way, we have to smuggle in things like platonic forms in the West. We smuggle in the idea of there being essences to things. We smuggle in meaning as it's supposedly ordained to us by some external "God". All of this is stuff that goes on at the level of consciousness if you're Nishitani, and you can see the similarities here to the work of his colleague Martin Heidegger. Consciousness, then, is the field of our awareness where we create these elaborate theories about how subjects relate to objects for the sake of utility. And it's also the field of our awareness that keeps us in a
20:53 Speaker 00 constant state of distraction from these deeper religious questions. Again, if you're not engaging with nihilism at a deep enough level, then you will always be living in this field of consciousness, a place of theoretical abstractions, which means you will always be living at a distance from the more immediate connection we have to being. So, like I said before, this is the place that most people spend their lives in all the time. Life, for many people, becomes just a matter of finding yet another way to project your ego onto the world. And it should be said, basically, all of Western philosophy, Nishitani says, goes on solely in this field of consciousness. In fact, if you look back at the history of Western thought, you'll notice that thinkers have mostly ignored these other two fields of nihility and Shunyata. We'll touch on these a bit more here in a second, but real quick.
21:38 Speaker 00 Don't get him wrong when it comes to his thoughts about Western philosophy. "Western philosophy," he would say, "has done a lot of impressive and useful stuff in the field of consciousness over the years. Incredible systems have been created connecting subjects and objects together in truly productive ways." Again, we should avoid the possible mistake here of dualistic thinking, where you might assume that what Nishitani must be saying is we gotta get rid of consciousness. It needs to go, and we need to fix it with some better way of thinking. No, he acknowledges we need to live in consciousness sometimes. What he's saying is something more along the lines of, "To only spend your life with an awareness of this realm of consciousness and to ignore the other two would put you in a place where you're always projecting yourself or your ego onto the world and trying to control it in some way."
22:21 Speaker 00 Now, someone like Nietzsche would say that that is a feature and not a bug of consciousness. "We need to create values via the self," he thinks, "and thank God we can. That's the only way values are created at all." And remember the common criticism that came up about Nietzsche's work when we were talking about it, that it places too much emphasis on one scale of reality, the individual, and not enough emphasis on other scales of being that we're always occupying. Well, here is Nishitani, not just affirming reality at the scale of the individual like Nietzsche, but he's trying to affirm it at every other scale of reality as well. Here is him saying that truly religious transformation is gonna be to take this individual self from the field of consciousness and to liberate it, to understand the groundless ground that
23:04 Speaker 00 what we call the self ultimately rests upon, and then to expand our ability to see our connection to the vast network of being that we're a part of. Now, really quick, keep in mind what this is not saying. This is not saying that we should get rid of the self. This is not nullifying the self, but it's also moving away from us reifying the self. See, this is typically how dualistic thinking will work. We think we either need to reify the self and make it into something way more important and durable than it actually is, kind of like what we do with forms and objects when we reify them, or if it's not that, then we need to nullify the self and get rid of it entirely, say something like "the self is a total illusion" or something. But no, neither of these are what Nishitani is saying. Again, there is no fixed essence to what this self we're talking about is.
23:50 Speaker 00 Like, the point we arrived at towards the end of last episode, the thing that makes the self what it is, is the emptiness of shunyata. So, the only way to see that emptiness is to empty the self, to empty it as much as we can of all these artifacts from the field of consciousness, where we're creating these elaborate systems that block us from a deeper connection to nihiyadi and shunyata. The idea is, we need to empty the self if we want to liberate the self. Now, how exactly would this look in practice? Seems like a couple of examples might be helpful for us to have here. And we've already talked on this podcast a bit ago about the work of the philosopher Simone Weil and her concept of attention. Well, Simone Weil is gonna be someone whose work is directly related to this whole conversation we've been having lately. And to use one of her examples here, and to make this relatable,
24:34 Speaker 00 to just use an example of self-emptying that goes on at the level of a person that's talking to another person. Simone Weil writes about how, when you come across someone, anyone, and start having a conversation with them, there's different standpoints that you can be having that conversation from. On one hand, you could be talking to someone, and if you're operating in this field of consciousness that Nishitani's talking about, you might have the entire conversation with this person, filtering all of it through what use this person has to you. How does this person benefit my own projects or agendas? How is what they're saying here similar to what I already believe in? You may only consider differences in the way that they view the world, insofar as they're commensurate with your ways that you view things. In other words, there's a way to have every conversation you ever find yourself in,
25:19 Speaker 00 from a dualistic utilitarian framing, where you're ultimately just projecting yourself onto this other person. But then there's another way to orient yourself towards this whole process, she says. You can talk to a person and just try to listen to them as they are. Where there's no projection of the self that's going on, you're really just trying to let them be. You're trying to receive this person on their own terms, as they're attempting to present themselves to you. Now that's a totally different kind of process for somebody to be engaged in. And what Simone Vaez has happens when you do this is a couple of things. One, you potentially become a catalyst for this person being seen at a level that they've never really experienced before. You become a catalyst for their own transformation. But more than that, when you do this, what this turns you into is, instead of being
26:04 Speaker 00 an ego or a self projecting yourself onto the world, you become more like an antenna for the universe to express itself through you. In other words, you become, in this moment, a node that is a part of a larger network. Your existence becomes about fulfilling a larger role that you always already occupy, rather than needing to always be dominating and asserting yourself onto every situation. This is a real-world, practical example of the kind of move Nishitani is talking about when someone undergoes a religious transformation. This is an everyday life example of self-emptying, where you stop trying so hard to filter this person through all the theories you have about how subjects relate to objects. You stop thinking about them as some object that either gets you closer to or further away from your own goals.
26:50 Speaker 00 And this emptying of the self, of these artifacts from the field of consciousness, all these tools we use, it opens you up to experiencing this person, and even the world at large, in a new way, more immediately. Or as Nishitani says, quote, "to receive the emptiness of things on their own home ground," end quote. This point, when applied not just to a person, but to our whole existence, this is the movement between the three existential standpoints that Nishitani thinks is a crucial piece of an authentic religious quest. Now, you may say at this point, "Wait a second. You just said that there's three existential standpoints, we just moved through there, but I only saw two. I mean, I get that we started in the field of consciousness. I was projecting my ego onto the conversation with the hypothetical person.
27:34 Speaker 00 And then at the end, I heard Nishitani say that we're now receiving the emptiness of things on their own home ground. That sounds a lot like shunyata, the groundless ground, the emptiness that we talked about last time. But didn't you say there's consciousness, nihiladi, and then shunyata? Where did nihiladi go in this whole process? Well, nihiladi is an interesting one of these fields of awareness that we have. Nishitani talks about how there's a lot of ways you could encounter nihility in your life. And he has a really interesting quote in the book where he says that one way that it's experienced is when we encounter that which undermines the typical stable meanings that we use to make sense of reality. So nihility, in this form that he's talking about at least, is a callback to the work we did last episode in taking nihilism as seriously as we can. And it's not a coincidence that the two words sound so similar.
28:18 Speaker 00 See, what he means is, if we're usually just living in the field of consciousness, and we have all these distractions and theoretical systems built around durable subjects and objects that in reality are not that durable, then what happens as we go throughout our lives inevitably? The true nihility of existence, the true lack of stability to the forms we build our lives around, eventually rears its ugly head to us. Because as it turns out, whatever it is, it doesn't matter how much you believe that this is, you know, the political ideal that we should all be striving for. It doesn't matter how certain you think you are that this is really some battle between good and evil embedded into the universe. This sort of life-denying, complexity-denying way of looking at things will always be shown for what it is eventually.
29:03 Speaker 00 You wait long enough, eventually reality shatters any illusion of the stability of the theories you're trying to simplify it with. If you doubt this, just wait for the next time you lose a loved one. Just wait until the next time a relationship ends, or you lose your job. Wait until you're blindsided by something that you were so certain you had a total read on. Nihility will hit you and show you the games you've been playing in the field of consciousness all along. Nishitani says in the book, quote, "Nihility refers to that which renders meaningless the meaning of life. When we become a question to ourselves, and when the problem of why we exist arises, this means that nihility has emerged from the ground of our existence and that our very existence has turned into a question mark. The appearance of this nihility signals nothing less than that one's awareness of self-existence
29:48 Speaker 00 has penetrated to an extraordinary depth," end quote. See, the presence of nihility in your life is not a bad thing to Nishitani. Again, it's a sign that you're actually expanding your understanding of existence beyond the field of consciousness. It means you're actually engaging with Religious questions and ultimately what it means is that you're in a place where you can learn something new about the relationship between self and being, where a deeper experience with shunyata starts to become a real possibility for you. So, religion is significant to Nishitani, not because it's something that allows us to overcome nihilism, but because when we take religion seriously and engage with nihilism more deeply, real transformation can actually occur. We can experience the emptiness of things on their own home ground of shunyata.
30:33 Speaker 00 Nishitani has a great line in the book where he's describing one possible piece of being on a religious quest. He says, "Religion eventually leads us to quote, 'the real self-realization of reality,' end quote." Now, first time you hear that, you can be like, "What, is this guy trolling? What the heck does that mean?" But it's actually a beautifully dense sentence that does make a lot of sense. And the first thing to understand about it is to understand the reason he's using the word realization there. See, if you read philosophy, one of the big challenges thinkers will run into sometimes is that they're often trying to push the boundaries of what human thinking is, or what language even is, the entire time they're writing. And what that means is, they're often talking about concepts where there aren't necessarily perfect words that already exist that describe the kind of things they're talking about.
31:18 Speaker 00 And what you'll come across are philosophers that'll pull words from other languages that they think do a better job at describing something than the words they have in their native language. Now, most of the time you'll see someone pull something from like, German, or Russian. French is another popular one. These are languages that pretty obviously have some depth to them that's special, and philosophers will gravitate towards them if it helps to make their point. But today, my friends, today is a rare victory in this area for the English language. It's like when England won the World Cup back in like, 1962. Anyway, the word realization has a double meaning when we use it in English. And it's a double meaning that Nishitani thinks is pretty effective here. On the one hand, to realize in English, he says, means to actualize, to bring something into being.
32:02 Speaker 00 But on the other hand, realize can mean to understand, like to comprehend or to know. When Nishitani says, "The real self-realization of reality," he means both of these meanings simultaneously. When the self experiences shunyata, the groundless ground of reality, the emptiness, things on their own home ground, then the illusion of separation from those things disappears. Self and world are no longer things that are experienced dualistically or separate. We experience these things as co-constituting, as it's sometimes said. What we call the self is always giving rise to the world, and the world is always giving rise to the self. Our thoughts, our experiences, our perceptions, these are all a part of the unfolding of reality.
32:47 Speaker 00 Like the example of the campfire I gave last episode, where dependent origination makes us see the boundaries between the things that make up the fire as ultimately just a matter of convention. Self and world are equally entangled in the field of awareness of shunyata. And to talk about where one ends and the other begins is only something that's possible to experience in the field of consciousness, where we're marking all these rigid separations based on forms. Now, while it may be possible in this field of consciousness for the self to think it is realizing the reality of the world, you know, by coming up with all these formal distinctions about it and systems that try to understand it, while in consciousness, this seems very real to us, we also know that in this other field of awareness of shunyata, that those same formal distinctions are experienced by people as illusions.
33:32 Speaker 00 I mean, if you've never experienced it yourself, you can read the testimony of people that have. I mean, people describe their experience of shunyata or things similar and say, you know, "I can't quite put it into words, but I felt a part of something larger, like it was me, and it made sense that it was me. And that in this moment where I felt this connection to this, it didn't feel like I was hallucinating. It felt like the normal filters or illusions that I usually organize things through were lifted from me for the first time." And when you no longer have the illusion of reality being a bunch of independent, reified substances that are all working against each other, you arrive at what Nishitani calls "the real self-realization of reality", a mutually supportive interdependence, where self and world are always interpenetrating,
34:17 Speaker 00 almost like the logs, the air, and the campfire from the example we gave. Meaning, whatever we are, we are always already, in every moment, connected to, embedded in, and co-constituting the world itself. So, that double meaning of self-realization starts to make more sense under this framing. We are both actualizing and understanding reality simultaneously as our being is unfolding. See, this is what's sometimes called an epistemology-first approach in philosophy. This isn't something that denies that there's an ontological reality out there that exists, but this is an approach that prioritizes our experience of the world and the factors that combine to make that experience even possible. These become the relevant points to focus on when reality is experienced through the field of shunyata.
35:01 Speaker 00 Part of the idea is, you know, we'll leave the dream of arriving at the objective truth about the material world to the realm of consciousness, and shunyata will be for when we want to experience reality on its own home ground. And if it helps here, this is similar to that shift we talked about that's going on for many philosophers around this same time, where there's more of a focus being given to the phenomenological framing of reality as opposed to a purely ontological framing of reality. We need multiple different framings if we want to get a full-bodied picture of things. And here's Nishitani finding room for both of these standpoints within this existential experience of the world that he's describing, this religious quest. Now, you can imagine, if we take Simone Weil's conversation with the other, where we truly receive them as they are, as one small example of the kind of shift in perspective that goes
35:45 Speaker 00 on when we see more in terms of nihility and shunyata, well, you can imagine how you might start to see things in the world and your relationship to them in a totally different way. I mean, if you had to put the move that's going on here into words, how would you do it? Well, to return back to it, Nishitani would say, "This is a move from seeing things in terms of what use they serve to me and thinking more in terms of, for what purpose do I exist?" In other words, instead of always thinking, "How do I want to project myself onto the world today?", you might instead start to think about the rules that you already are always occupying, given the relationships you currently have. Are you a parent? Are you a partner? Are you a member of a community of thinkers? A member of a nation? But then outside of the human-to-human relationships we have, aren't we also a part of this larger
36:30 Speaker 00 network of things in very different ways as well? Are you a part of an ecosystem, for example, where every breath you take depends on trees and phytoplankton-producing oxygen, where they also are depending on you? Are you a co-creator in the life of the soil, where the food you eat to survive comes from a collaboration between microorganisms, minerals, and many other things that's been going on for thousands of years? Are you a part of the water cycle, where every sip of water you drink has traveled through countless rivers, clouds, even the bodies of other organisms, before it's reached this exact moment where it happens to help you? More than just your place in an ecosystem, though, just think of the technology you use. The smartphone you have is not some isolated object.
37:14 Speaker 00 It is the culmination of labor, materials, global systems, from the cobalt that's mined in the Congo, gallium from Kazakhstan, to the hands of workers that put it together in factories. Even when it comes to your thoughts, can you really say that these are entirely your own thoughts? Or are they shaped by books, conversations, videos, culture that's created by who knows how many others since the dawn of history? See, we fill many roles in this larger network, whether we like it or not, and whether we realize it or not. And when Nishitani talks about having an authentic religious quest, it's about the process of awakening to this interdependence. If you're a parent, or a partner, a member of a family who's needed for that role, is there a point where the projects you set up for yourself
37:59 Speaker 00 could become a distraction from that role, a denial of your place in a network? Is there a point where it wouldn't just be you innocently creating value? Or consider how much of your life might be spent trying to fix things about yourself, your appearance, your personality, what you've done in your life? Imagine always trying to meet some standard of perfection you have. You go to the gym, and it's not because your health and the ability to use your body is part of a larger, interdependent network that keeps you alive, that you're an important piece of. No, for a lot of people, going to the gym is just a vanity project, or it's given into social pressure. "I gotta start going to the gym, because what'll people start saying about me behind my back if I gain a little weight?" But with this shift into seeing things more in the field of shunyata,
38:42 Speaker 00 another different way that you might start to frame this very same world is that these flaws you have, that you're always trying to fix about yourself, are not actually separate from the world you live in. The wrinkles on your skin, for example, that you try to scrub off with that free microdermabrasion thing, or it's special cream, those wrinkles are actually evidence that time has gone by, time that connects you to everything that makes you what you are. Your personality quirks are not imperfections or things to fix about you, but they're evidence of the relationships and the trips you've taken that have shaped you thus far. In other words, the desire to perfect yourself all the time starts to fade in shunyata. And what's reported by people who claim to experience it is that when you're in this place,
39:25 Speaker 00 you can't help but start to feel a strong sense of compassion for everything that there is around you. Because when the illusion of separation is taken away from the world, you just start to feel like treating anything else around you in a self-serving way, at the expense of whatever it is, just seems to you like it's ultimately hurting yourself in some way. Again, this is no longer looking at the world in terms of what use it serves to me anymore, but more in terms of for what purpose do I exist in this larger network? Now, you can imagine how complicated this network might get. And you can imagine how many moving parts there are and how this might take somebody who has this insight, say a Mahayana Buddhist, their entire lifetime to be able to explore. And while there are Buddhists out there that view shunyata as a transcendent category,
40:08 Speaker 00 meaning it's a state of being that you need to ascend to in some way, usually by nullifying the self or normal existence, well, that's how some Buddhists see it. It's important to remember that for Nishitani, this field of shunyata is eminent, not transcendent. Meaning for him, shunyata is always there as a part of our existence. It's just usually there are things in the way of our ability to see it. This is why we have to self-empty if we want to get these things out of the way. It's to clear up more room in our field of awareness to notice shunyata as it's always there. And certain approaches to Buddhism are filled with religious exercises that can help you try to see things in less of a dualistic way. But again, the goal for Nishitani should never be to chase shunyata, because that would be the very kind of projection of the self that blocks our ability to experience it.
40:53 Speaker 00 The goal would be to remove those sorts of projections, to open ourselves, to experiencing what's already there. Again, a self-emptying. When your experience is more opened like this and you start seeing the emptiness of things on their own home ground, Nishitani thinks you just see the relationships that exist between things at a depth that is so different from anything we ever experience in the field of consciousness. Dostoevsky, the great Russian author, is another person, he thinks, that when you read his writing, you just see this as a person where by the way that he describes things, it makes it so obvious this is someone who's engaged with nihilism at an extremely deep level, albeit in a different way than Nishitani engages with it, but he still gives him a ton of respect.
41:35 Speaker 00 And by the way, I would love to do an episode talking about Dostoevsky's work on nihilism, his contributions to existentialism at the time. Maybe we could do it by examining one of his books, kind of like we did with Camus in The Fall. As usual, though, I would need to know if that's something anybody out there is even interested in. Please, help a humble podcaster like myself to know what this audience desires next. Now, to wrap this up today, you can probably see now why the statement "God is dead" to someone like K. G. Nishitani is not an anti-religious statement at all. Because we buy what Nietzsche's selling there, that the traditional forms of hope, that objective morality is possible, are dead. And that to be an intelligent person, living in the modern world, makes it practically impossible to believe in the Western religious stories about a god that gives you meaning to your life. If we buy all this,
42:20 Speaker 00 then where does that leave the modern person typically? Well, exactly what Nietzsche predicted. Their starting point will be an existential crisis needing to confront nihilism. In other words, their starting point would be the very kind of engagement with nihilism that Nishitani thinks is necessary, crucial, to be able to reach this deeper awareness of our own being. What this also means then for Nishitani, and he says this in one of the first sentences of the book, is that the person that thinks they need religion the least is actually probably the person that could benefit from religion the most. Because to be the person that sees through how superficial a lot of people's relationship to their religion is, is to be someone that's actually seeking a greater level of awareness about existence. And religion, tragically in this case,
43:03 Speaker 00 becomes something that you might write off because you see people not taking it seriously, and you might assume that's all of what religion must be. But just like with the university example, you'd be missing an opportunity if you wrote the entire thing off. If you were truly someone that wanted a deeper understanding of your existence, religion may be the way that you can do it in the company of others who have the same goals, people you can learn from, people who can inspire you. ...your own religious quest. And imagine writing off all of that just because you have some axe to grind with religion as a social phenomenon. Anyway, I hope this episode gave you something to think about. If you like this line of philosophy we've been covering, please let me know. Patreon.com/PhilosophizeThis. Thank you for listening. I'll talk to you next time.
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