Winning Hearts, Minds, and Policy with Strategic Communications | PBM Reform

Many pharmacy leaders focus on legislation and lobbying. Why is strategic communication on social media equally important?

• 0:05Speaker 00

  You are listening to the global network of podcasters dedicated to the pharmacy profession. Welcome to the pharmacy podcast network.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Welcome to the PBM Reform Podcast, where we dive deep into the world of pharmaceutical benefit management, cutting through the noise to uncover the truth. Since 2019, we've been your go-to source for the latest on how PBMs impact patient care, drug pricing, and the very future of pharmacy. Here, we champion the role of pharmacists, the most knowledgeable advocates for medication safety and expertise. Join us as we expose and generate discussions that are reshaping healthcare and explore how we build a better payment system which focuses on advancing pharmacy care.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  Welcome to another episode of the PBM Reform Podcast here on the pharmacy podcast network. My name is Breck Rice, and I've been a community pharmacy advocate now for about 23 years. Love the industry. And on today's episode, we're going to discuss one of the most important challenges facing community pharmacy. Now, across the country, independent pharmacies, state pharmacy associations, and patient advocates are fighting for greater transparency, fair reimbursements, and policies that protect patient access of care. But winning legislative battles requires more than just facts and data. It requires effective communications.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  So joining us today on the podcast, we have Maurice Retail with Reese Call, a farm D, retail pharmacist and expert in crafting messages, influencing stakeholders, and building public support through social media. So, welcome to the show Maurice, how are you?

• 2:19Speaker 03

  I'm good, I'm good. I'm excited to be here. I was very happy when you reached out to me, so I'm glad we were able to set this up pretty quickly.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you're on fire with your social media posts, and that's where I found you and said, hey, we've got to get you on. You're singing, you know, to the same tune that I preach to community pharmacy. And so I thought, man, we've got to, we've got to get together and get you on the PBM Reform Podcast. And I think, man, you're up to over 37,000 followers now on TikTok, so you're doing a tremendous job there.

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, thank you. I've been trying to grow on TikTok, I've been trying to grow on Instagram, on YouTube, and Facebook as well. Those have been kind of new, YouTube and Facebook, but we're at 15,000 on Instagram, 12,000 on Facebook, and 11,000 on YouTube. So, we're trying to grow across all platforms, so it's been, it's been fun.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's excellent. That's a tremendous following. I didn't realize your YouTube following was that large, so you're probably in one of the top 1% or 2% of YouTubers now. And there's a big drop-off between the Mr. Beasts that have millions of followers, but man, 1,000 is a lot. Congratulations on that. So, well, before we get into today's interview, I want our listeners to learn a little bit more about you personally, Maurice. So, where did you grow up? I know you practice pharmacy there in Tennessee, you're in the Nashville area. Did you grow up in Nashville?

• 3:54Speaker 03

  No, so I'm originally from Wisconsin, La Crosse, Wisconsin, if you're familiar with the area. That's where I grew up, my parents met out there, and my mom, she is a nurse, so that's kind of how I got into healthcare. But my dad, when I was in about second or third grade, he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He passed away from it a few short years after that, and so we moved to Nashville, or the Nashville area, because my mom's family was in this area. So that's kind of how I made my migration to Nashville. And with her being a nurse, and honestly, going to the hospital a bunch for his visits and his treatments, I kind of became used to that setting.

• 4:36Speaker 03

  And so I knew from a very young age that I was going to go into healthcare. I just didn't know what until I got a little bit older, did some research, and thought pharmacy sounded the most interesting. So, being in Tennessee, I went to University of Tennessee College of Pharmacy in Memphis, did my four years there. I was an intern at a hospital, which is kind of interesting, because I was an intern at outpatient pharmacy in a hospital. And so I saw, I got to experience probably some of the best things in pharmacy because of that. We always had, we had so many technicians, we had just a plethora of technicians. We had multiple pharmacists working with overlap.

• 5:19Speaker 03

  We had about maybe six to 10 interns, and we weren't even, we were filling a lot of prescriptions, but not anything crazy, to be honest. And so when I left there, I moved back to Nashville, because that's where I'm from, and I got my first job at a retail pharmacy. And I had never really had experience working in a community pharmacy outside of that hospital, so it was kind of a culture shock. One pharmacist, no chairs, limited technician help, not what I was used to. And so I just kept, it wasn't where I wanted to be, and so I just, you know, showed up

• 6:00Speaker 03

  to work on time, was friendly to the technicians, was friendly to my coworkers, was easy to work with, and I leveraged that to get new positions, which ultimately led me to where I'm at right now, which is an outpatient pharmacy in a hospital, just like I started in pharmacy school. So it's kind of come full circle, and I'm glad I ended up there, but that is how my pharmacy journey's panned out. It's been about five years since I've, since I've graduated.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Okay, wow. So, still in that short amount of time, five years, you've done quite a bit, accomplished quite a bit, and you experienced behind the bench at a true community pharmacy, you know, retail setting, and now in outpatient pharmacy setting as well, which you admitted that's where you started originally. So, I, you know, I do have to ask the question, how old were you when you moved from Wisconsin down? Because, you know, that was, you know, moving from north of the Mason-Dixon line, so that's a big deal to people in Tennessee.

• 7:01Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I was 10, turning 11 when I moved to Tennessee, and it was definitely a culture shock, for sure. I don't have, I don't think I have much of an accent from Tennessee. I say things like "y'all," so you can kind of pinpoint me in the South when I talk like that. But overall, I think my cadence comes from living in Wisconsin.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah, well, and how many times have people blessed your heart there in Tennessee? Oh, bless his heart.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  Every day, every day.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Excellent, wow. What got you interested in social media? How did you get started there?

• 7:40Speaker 03

  So, I have been, it's funny, I don't, I didn't start getting on TikTok really until I started posting on social media. I've always had an Instagram, I've always loved watching content on YouTube, not pharmacy-based content, really like movies and video games, things I'm into outside of work. And then on TikTok, I started to scroll on there a little bit more than the past, about two years ago, and I saw pharmacy content creators, and I saw a lot of things that were being talked about that I agreed with, and I felt that there were also parts that, you know, I had a voice about as well, that I was not seeing being talked about.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  I also saw an angle where nobody was talking about, you know, how to succeed in a retail pharmacy, what you should do once you get hired, how you should treat your staff, how you should treat people you work with, how you pivot to different positions, because my career has been full of changing jobs. I've had about five jobs in five years, which I don't think is too typical. So, I thought that I could leverage that and teach people about how to transition in that sense. But what my social media's turned into now was never the original plan. I never planned on talking about PBM reform, I never planned on talking about work conditions, none of that.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  Now, it wasn't because I didn't believe in it, I just, I just wasn't, I really didn't think about it. I thought that my thoughts that I had about it were my own thoughts. I wasn't sure what the rest of the world thought about it, until I made one singular post about the conditions at my first job, which was Walgreens. And I basically start off with, we spend all this time advocating in pharmacy school and pharmacy, and advocating for provider status, and advocating for expanding our roles as pharmacists, and all these things, and... Crazy, I walk into a pharmacy and all of a sudden I don't have a chair to sit in. I'm not taking lunch breaks, like very basic human decency things that we just didn't discuss.

• 9:50Speaker 03

  And that video was like my first video that blew up and I was like, okay, people, okay, people agree with me. So it kind of snowballed from there and then, um, so yeah, that's kind of like how I got to where I'm at.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  But at least you were at a, a box store that had other technicians so that you didn't have to hang, hang up a little sign that says, I'll be back in five minutes just to have a bio break. So

• 10:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  A lot of the, uh, you know, some of our grocery store chains where it's, you know, it's a one man show back there trying to run things.

• 10:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. And my, my wife, she's a pharmacist as well and she worked retail when she first started and she, she had it worse than me. She was a pharmacy manager and she oftentimes was battling with her corporate about staffing. They wanted her to staff so many times, like they wanted her to staff a lot by herself. Or give her just one technician with zero overlapping technician hours throughout the day. And they had a walk up window. They had, you know, everything that the pharmacy has and you just can't operate that way. And I watched her fight and fight with her, with her, uh, with the corporation essentially about, no, I'm not scheduling myself with no help on Saturday. That's just not happening.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  And she didn't, she never did, but it was a, it was a battle every single week. And so I take that into account too, because I luckily, I had, I've been in some bad spots, but I never had to experience that side of it.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that one post went viral and that's what kind of launched your, a pathway into social media saying, well, I guess this is an important topic and more people want to hear about it. And that's usually what, what happens, you know, it's just that one post that they get some traction. People start commenting, which then more people see and then more comments and then more people see it. So congratulations on that. And, you know, many pharmacy leaders are focusing on the legislative and lobbying side. But, um, why do you think strategic communication like you're doing on social media is equally as important?

• 11:57Speaker 03

  Well, it's, a lot of people get their information from social media these days. And I think the best example I can give is the Fair Pharmacy Act in Tennessee. Um, when that was being pushed through before it got approved, there, um, you know, I don't know the companies that were funding this, but you can probably imagine, um, that they were having influencers post pro PBM propaganda essentially. And they would hire all these people and they had about

• 12:32Speaker 02

  You don't need to mention any, any names, but you know, initials like CVS are okay. You could

• 12:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, right. Um, and you have all these people, you have young people in their thirties who have kids and have relatable families and have followings of, you know, half a million to a million followers. And they are posting about how Tennessee is looking to shut down local pharmacies. My kids are not going to be able to get their medicine after going to the ER. And my dad's a veteran and veterans aren't going to have access. So they use these buzzwords. And so while legislate, like there are so many people, Tennessee's so great. I love TPA and what we're doing here, what they're doing here. I guess we, I'm a member, but, um,

• 13:20Speaker 03

  and they did so much work with getting the information available, like making it readily available. And so I was able to take that information and help amplify it. And I was able to tag these people who were making these, uh, these videos about this propaganda and say, hey, look, this is not actually the truth. What's actually happening is that this is a good thing. PBMs and CVS owning a PBM and a pharmacy is actually leading to pharmacies being shut down. It's leading to prices being inflated. It's leading to all these things. And everybody's getting their information from social media at this point.

• 14:00Speaker 03

  So it made it pretty easy to amplify once I'm able to grab it and post stats and post data and post real information for people to digest. And so that is how I have found that it has been helpful. I, I recently found out, probably, I don't think I can talk about this too much, but I recently found out that the things that I was posting about made an impact on the decision to get that passed through here in Tennessee. And I'm not even saying that to say that like, you know, pat myself on the back, but it really just goes to show that,

• 14:39Speaker 03

  you know, if you have a voice and you can get it out there, that's just, it doesn't take much other than that. And, you know, everybody who had been talking about it, even if they weren't getting hundreds of thousands of views on their videos or tens of thousands, even just, you know, a hundred views or 200 views, other people see that. And people take from that and help amplify that. And it's just, uh, it, it snowballs into what, um, the message became. And eventually, because I made so much posts about it, other people who had been reached out to by this company to make videos, reached out to me and said, hey, this is exactly what they sent me. They're paying me $10,000 or $10,000 to $14,000 to post it.

• 15:21Speaker 03

  They're telling me I have like 24 hours to respond to this, so they're not going to work with me. And when you, when you're offering people that kind of money upfront to, to say, oh yeah, like pharmacies are being closed down. Like that's an easy cash grab. They spent probably half a million to a million dollars just on advertising through social media. So long-winded way to say that social media is just so important. And that is where a lot of people are getting their information these days.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Now for our listeners that are across the country may not be familiar with this, um, Tennessee act that has just, uh, been passed, give a brief explanation.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. So the Fair Pharmacy Act is essentially a way to stop pharmacy or PBMs, pharmacy benefit managers from also owning pharmacies. And the reason that that is important is because they're the ones who negotiate prices. So if CVS, just for example, they have Caremark. And so if Caremark is negotiating prices with their own entity, which is CVS, and they're also negotiating prices with, let's say I had a pharmacy, Maurice's Pharmacy. They have been found to have been giving more, um, better reimbursements, better pricing for themselves.

• 16:43Speaker 03

  And so when you aren't profiting as a pharmacy and you can't afford your overhead, you shut down. And when you shut down, patients are left to have to use CVS, for example, or even just PBMs making them use it just because of contracts. But it, it drives down competition and when you drive down competition, the working conditions, not only, I guess the working conditions for the people working in those pharmacies, there's no incentive to improve them. And then just as a consumer, there's no incentive for you to get a better product. And that's essentially the problem that I have with it.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And you explained that very well. Thank you for, for, uh, covering that. In addition to the unfavorable reimbursements to an independent and more favorable reimbursement to the PB own, PBMs own pharmacy, they were also directing patients, right? So, um, directing, making the patient feel like the only pharmacy they could go to was their pharmacy. And they were doing that through their networks. And in addition, if somebody's on a maintenance medication, so maybe they're on a, a statin or something that they're going to take month after month, they're getting sent a letter from their PBM,

• 18:03Speaker 02

  their pharmacy benefit manager that makes it look like it's mandatory for them to get their refills through where? The PBMs own mail order pharmacy. Yeah. So yeah, thanks for covering that. So what separates a successful advocacy campaign, um, utilizing social media versus an unsuccessful one in your opinion?

• 18:27Speaker 03

  With social media, at least in 2026, and just how people consume media in general, the, the biggest thing that you have to do is not only get to the point as quick as possible, but give people a reason to care about it in the opening as well. And so that is, um, that's the tricky part because

• 18:55Speaker 03

  it's talking about PBM reform and the nuts and bolts of it. It's a very, it's, it's a lot to digest and the average person is not going to want to listen to that. But if you can somehow get them to care about the message within the first five seconds or the first 10 seconds and then slowly expand on it, you can, you can retain viewers. And those viewers are going to be able to learn what you're talking about. And I think that is like the, that's the hardest part because there's people out there that I'm sure have, have the best information in the world. But if you're not able to have people listen through it, then it's not reaching anybody.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, that's, that's really great point. I mean, we, we're a microwave society. We want everything instantly and attention spans are short. And if you don't catch the attention right up front, then they're scrolling, you know? You just can scroll right by and, and, and not get the important information that might be shared there. So, you know, one other big hurdle we have on educating the general public is better understanding pharmacy benefits and, and how they work, um, in general. I was asked to go speak to a, a group of, of business owners here in the Phoenix area. And, um, no one even knew what a pharmacy benefit manager was.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  These were CEOs of corporations. They had no idea what a PBM was or how they were involved in their cost for their own, um, company and, and their own employees. So how should pharmacies help explain that issue better to the general public? And, and I guess also just to make sure that the, you know, patients understand how they're affected by the PBM rules that are in place that are not positive today.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  That is, that's like the million dollar question because it's so, it's so complicated and it's, it's so, it's purposely confusing and vague and opaque. And it's purposely meant to where you can't really track where rebates are going and where cost savings metrics are going. And so it's really hard. It's honestly, I, I don't know if I know the answer to that. I think the best way for me and the way I try to just relate it as much as possible is that there is one thing that every single person has in common, I think, in the country is that going to the pharmacy is just not a fun experience.

• 21:41Speaker 03

  It is, it's not a fun experience. And when you are, when your prices are high, that's what we complain about. When your insurance coverages constantly change, when you're forced to go to a specific pharmacy and when a pharmacy doesn't have the resources to properly service you, that is how you, that's how I try to get people to care. And I tie it back to that one issue, which is PBM reform. And so that's, that's, that's how I, that's how I try to do it.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the pharmacist over at Forest Park Pharmacy, who I also follow on TikTok, does a good job bringing it down to the patient level because of the cost, right? So if by, you know, their approach is to kick out the PBM so that there isn't a middleman which can help bring the, the cost of the, of the medication down. So I think everyone can relate with where it's hitting them in their wallet, right?

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Strategies around communicating that to, you know, the general public is, is probably pretty beneficial.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's hard because, I mean, I have conversations like this daily. We have at our hospital, we have a cash plan for our medications. And let's say you're getting Amlotopene. On our cash plan, it's $4, $4 to get it from us. I bill your insurance, it's $12. Why is it more expensive with my insurance? Why does my insurance make it go up? That's, you know, it's the million dollar question.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yep, exactly. And then remember when they had gag clauses in place with pharmacy benefit managers have these gag clauses, so you couldn't tell them that their cash price was less than, than the insurance copay. So, so at least we're making some progress there, right? Removing some of those, you know, those tricks of the, of the industry. So if the wallet is important to the, the patient, what do you think the message is most important to the voters or legislators?

• 23:47Speaker 03

  The message definitely, it's definitely access. It's definitely access because

• 23:56Speaker 03

  you want to have choice.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  You want to have competition in general. Competition, I think, is good for any industry.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  You want to support small business.

• 24:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, small businesses, you don't see those anymore because of PBMs.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Rural healthcare, I mean, you're, you're pretty close to, to, you know, a large metropolitan area, right? You go 15 miles east of you, it's very rural. Go 30 miles west of you, it's extremely rural, you know? So what about that, you know, the rural health initiatives? If all these independents are put out of business because the only place a, a patient can go now to get access is a chain.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay. Can you give us an example of, of a message that community pharmacies, they could use speaking to a lawmaker? Might be, you know, a, I guess you could take a, a short form video from that and, and make a, you know, a social media post. What would be a good example that, that would be beneficial to a lawmaker?

• 25:06Speaker 03

  It'd probably be just the access. There's just a, the lack of, the lack of choice. I think one thing that, that I think everybody can agree on is nobody for one wants to be told where they have to go fill their medications at. And

• 25:25Speaker 03

  when you, when you don't have as many pharmacies, when mom and pop pharmacies are closing down, independent pharmacies are disappearing and they're not able to compete because of those reimbursements, you get put into a funnel where you have to go to certain places. And as we see just on social media or every single day, nobody wants to go to a Walgreens, nobody wants to go to CVS. And

• 25:51Speaker 03

  I think just reinforcing that the biggest thing here in Tennessee was that if they have to choose between a PBM and a pharmacy, pharmacies are going to shut down. That was the, the big, the big talking point. And it was really the, the opposite. It was pharmacists saying, no, if, if these other pharmacies have to close down because of, because of this law, because they can't be a PBM and own them as well, others will pop up. Other pharmacists will finally be able to have their own pharmacies and they'll be able to expand in that notion. I mean, I know there's plenty of pharmacists that I know that the only thing holding them back is the reimbursement aspect. They, they have a business plan and a strategy.

• 26:36Speaker 03

  It's just that they can't reliably make money off of medications that they're buying and billing. So I think it's, it's really just that increased access to care, essentially. But, but yeah, I think that's, that'd be the biggest talking point.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Good deal. Now, is there, obviously there's benefit to unifying a state pharmacy association to have a, you know, similar,

• 27:10Speaker 02

  I guess, unified approach to communication. Is, is there anything that you're doing in your state association to kind of get all the independent pharmacies on the same page with what they're either posting or talking to their legislators about or, or taking interviews? Is there any effort to unify a message at this, at the state pharmacy association level?

• 27:37Speaker 03

  Not that I'm aware of. I, like I said, I just started getting into this side of pharmacy. I never planned on talking about these things and I'm glad that I am. I'm, I really am because I like talking about how to improve pharmacies and just overall patient care in general. I know personally, I've actually started working towards getting a community of Nashville area pharmacy professionals to get together and network in a more casual setting because I've found that in those casual settings, that's when we can really talk a little bit more freely. And so that is what I've been trying to do here locally is just gather a community

• 28:19Speaker 03

  of pharmacy professionals that are on the same page and understand, you know, what, what, what we have to deal with every day.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I think that could be very, you know, very helpful because I, there might be

• 28:35Speaker 02

  a lot of pharmacists are more reserved. And, and they may be, you know, they may have a little bit of a, feel uncomfortable speaking to somebody in the media. And so what would be some suggestions that you would have to help them be more effective in, you know, in, in an interview or even covering a topic like PBM reform with their, with their local media?

• 29:01Speaker 03

  I think just pulling from personal experience, you are the expert in your field. You are the expert in handling the negativity or the negatives with dealing with PBMs. And you're the best person to talk about it because we experience it every single day in the pharmacy. We see its impact not only as a pharmacy employee and a pharmacy worker, but we see what it does to patients and how they fall behind in care as well. And so it's, I think you just need to have a little bit more confidence and understand that it's not as complex as it sounds. It's something that we live every single day and you just have to talk about your experience and that's the best way to translate it.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm glad that you talked about personal experience because people still listen to stories, right? And every pharmacy has a story about a patient that couldn't get their medication or something that, that was held up for, for that patient in, in having, you know, access to something that they needed because of a pharmacy benefit manager. So I think, I think stories, personal stories really can catch the media attention and help move a PBM reform in the right direction. So what, what role does social media play in influencing policymakers today?

• 30:28Speaker 03

  So when we were going through the Fair Pharmacy Act here in Tennessee and these other corporations were, had their influencers talking about what was going on, eventually because of what I was saying, I got that email with what they're being offered and the stipulations and the, basically the paid advertisement, like in writing, in verbatim writing. And because I posted it online, I saw other policymakers resharing it on Twitter and resharing it in other places. So even something as small as that, they're using that as a resource when they're going and talking, talking to lawmakers and everything about, you know, why this is important.

• 31:12Speaker 03

  And even just having a video explaining

• 31:20Speaker 03

  How this impacts patients and how this impacts Tennessee in general, or whatever state or our country in general. When you have somebody else who's, here's a video, like, watch this video right here. This is explaining everything better than I can, you know? Or this echoes all the calls and letters and emails that we've been getting. This is, look at the comment sections, look at the shares, look at the likes. Like, everybody here agrees. You can't, the thing about social media too is that the comment section, you can't fake people's responses. You know, you, you either have a positive or negative backlash or whatever, but you can see how everybody feels about a topic if you go into the comment section.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  And so that is just an easy way to show that there is support and things behind these policies that we want changed. And social media, for better or for worse, is a big proponent.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So how can pharmacy leaders like yourself then build, you know, a broader coalition? You know, are there other groups like physicians or even employer groups that you could tap into to help build the coalition?

• 32:32Speaker 03

  Honestly, I do not know. I have, I have no idea. I've, I know personally, I've made it an early New Year's resolution, but to go to more pharmacy meetings and to get more involved in my profession outside of going to work and talking about it. Like, I want to try and get in, in those rooms and really see how these things actually move. And so that has been one of my goals. I don't know of any other groups or what that looks like. But the biggest thing is that as pharmacists and people who work in a pharmacy,

• 33:14Speaker 03

  we can only, our voices can only do so much. Where it's, it's going to take much more than us talking about these things. It's going to take patients, it's going to take physicians who deal with pharmacies. And prioth, you know, you can get into all of it. But, you know, it's going to take every part of the healthcare workflow process for a patient to, to really make people care. And so pharmacies and pharmacists can't be the only ones talking about this because this affects literally every single person, everybody.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Absolutely. That, that's the point I'm making is that it would seem to me that, you know, pharmacy should build that coalition by going to chambers of commerce, you know, going to patient advocacy, advocacy groups, you know, labor groups, employers. It all, it affects, you know, everyone, like you said. Employers are, you know, paying more than they, they need to, to a PBM. That's not getting passed on to the pharmacy. The pharmacy's earning less, but the payer, the employer's paying more. Where is that money going?

• 34:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, figure that out. How come, how come healthcare costs more today than it has ever, ever cost? And pharmacies are making less than they've ever made on drugs? You know, not just the coverage, but just on the drug spend. It's costing employers more than it's ever cost them, and pharmacies are making less than they ever made. So there's a spread in there somewhere, and it's not going to pharmacies. It affects, it affects physicians. I had Dr. Makamala, the president of the AMA on the podcast just last year. I encourage everybody to go back and listen to that episode. It was fascinating. He's personally affected by PBM and whether or not what medication he can, you know,

• 35:07Speaker 02

  have and at what cost he can have it. So it does affect everyone. I appreciate you mentioning that. So as PBM reform affects, you know, continue to, to, you know, continue to cross over the country, what's happened there in Tennessee, you know, in Arkansas, there are places that are making some of these amazing reform come to, to, to life. What do you, you know, what do you hope for in the next 12 months?

• 35:42Speaker 03

  I hope that more states join in. And I think that the fear of more states joining in is that it becomes a federal mandate instead of at the state level. And so I just hope that more states join in. I hope that more people keep talking about it. I hope that people in, you know, Florida, people in Louisiana, people in, I don't know, Oklahoma, see what Tennessee did, sees how Tennessee handled it and see that like, yes, this is something that can be passed through. Now, obviously, these PBMs are trying everything they can to stop this, even, even with the, with it being passed.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  But I think as more join in, it's, it's going to become more of a, more of a reality. So I just hope to see more states opt into trying to tackle this problem because every state's affected by it.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Well, Maurice, do you have any, you know, any advice for pharmacy associations across the country, all over America, on a communication strategy that they could implement immediately?

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Maybe every association needs Maurice on the, on the payroll, creating content for them because you're doing a great job.

• 37:01Speaker 03

  Honestly, I, I think that, I think that it would be a, I don't see too many of this, too many of this stuff happening. But I do think it would be advantageous to try and partner with people who already have a platform and talk about these things because I do see other associations post valuable, very valuable information, but they just don't have the reach. And so I think that in this age of social media, there are already people, not just talking about myself, but there are other content creators in the pharmacy space that can help amplify messages.

• 37:44Speaker 03

  And I think it's, it would be a very good idea to try and work with them in some capacity to help get these messages out there because I, I see a lot of the information that I get is from this stuff. And I see the engagement and it's very low. And I'm like, dang, like, this is such good information. Everybody needs to see this, but they don't see it. So I just think that the best way, at least right now, for information to get out is, I, I think it would be a great idea to work with people in the space that are creating content and do have a lot of experience with amplifying messages.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  Especially when you're talking to people who also have an invested interest in this as well. Not just from a, let's just find a paid actor to talk about this. Like, no, like, we need to find people who care and want to talk about this and want to see change. And I think most pharmacists who are, I want to say all pharmacists, who are posting on social media and sharing content and who have built audiences, they want to see pharmacy change for the better. And, you know, working together in, in that regard would be a lot of help. I, I truly believe that.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Are you optimistic about the future of community pharmacy?

• 39:05Speaker 03

  I'm optimi, I am, well, I'm optimistic, I'm scared of AI. I'm not going to lie. Not necessarily of AI just replacing pharmacists, but I think AI in general, that's probably a different conversation. But, but outside of that, I am pretty optimistic. I think that, I, I'll be honest, I didn't think that Tennessee would, the Fair Pharmacy Act would work. I really didn't. I did not think that it would get passed. And so that was eye-opening for me. That was the moment of, okay, people are listening and people are tired of dealing with this. So I'm very optimistic. I'm, I am.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Excellent. All right, some fun facts about you, rapid fire, ready? Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

• 39:56Speaker 03

  I am an early bird. I get up at about 4:30 every morning.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  Wow. And do you prefer the mountains or the beach?

• 40:03Speaker 03

  I prefer the mountains. I love the mountains.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Okay. You get over to the Smokies?

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Yes, I went to Smokies and I also went to Yellowstone two times, the Tetons, and out to Montana and out to Denver. Like, I love going out west. Like, that's my, my favorite vacation is going out west and just hanging out.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  The Smokies are incredible, but there's nothing in comparison to the Rockies, for sure.

• 40:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, they, they ruined the Smokies for me, fortunately.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  And do you prefer coffee, tea, or something else?

• 40:37Speaker 03

  Something else. I'm an energy drink person. I drink coffee because it's, more readily, my wife drinks coffee, so it's easy for me to just make some coffee. But if I'm being honest, I don't like it. I like energy drinks.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Okay. All right. Glad to have a chat about that offline. But, but today we've learned that, you know, that successful PBM reform isn't just about legislation. It's about communication, it's storytelling, it's coalition building and public engagement. And for community pharmacies and state pharmacy associations, the ability to clearly communicate how PBM practices affect patients may be one of the most powerful tools available to driving meaningful change. So thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your expertise with us, Maurice. It was great to get to know you a little better. And thanks for being a guest. And I want to remind all of our listeners

• 41:35Speaker 02

  that you are listening to the PBM Reform Podcast on the Pharmacy Podcast Network. And be sure and share this episode with someone that needs to hear it. Any community pharmacist that is dealing with either a legislator or a policymaker in their own community. Again, thank you, Maurice. And until next time, stay involved, stay positive, and stay informed.